Ep 343 Optimising Implantation, Egg Quality, and Hormonal Health with Laser Therapy with Lorne Brown

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Lorne Brown (@lorne_brown_official), a leading expert in integrative reproductive health and the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre. We explore the groundbreaking potential of low-level laser therapy (LLLT),  also known as photobiomodulation, and how it can support fertility, egg and sperm quality, and overall reproductive health.

Dr. Brown breaks down the science behind this innovative, non-invasive therapy, revealing how light can stimulate mitochondrial function, regulate inflammation, improve blood flow, and even support the nervous system. We also dive into the fascinating history of how this therapy was discovered for fertility by accident, the results of clinical research, and why dosage, wavelength, and placement matter when using this technology. Whether you're navigating IVF, struggling with unexplained infertility, or looking for additional support on your path to conception, this episode is packed with valuable insights.


Key Takeaways: 

• Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) or photobiomodulation enhances mitochondrial function, which is key to egg and embryo quality.

• The therapy can improve blood flow, regulate inflammation, reduce oxidative stress, and support nutrient absorption at the cellular level.

• It also helps balance the autonomic nervous system, shifting the body into parasympathetic mode to support reproductive health.

• Dr. Brown shares clinical data showing improved blastocyst rates and live births using LLLT before IVF transfers.

• Not all laser systems are created equal—dosage, wavelength, and delivery matter for therapeutic benefit.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

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https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

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• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 343 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbit, and today I am excited to welcome Lauren Brown back to the podcast he was on previously on episode 3 31, where he gives a little bit more of an introduction on his background, and we spoke a lot about consciousness and fertility, but today we're actually gonna be speaking about something really interesting.

  Which is laser therapy when it comes to fertility health, specifically low level laser therapy. So I'm really excited for him to come back on and speak about this. And if you are on the fertility journey, I highly recommend you listen to this episode. He is going to be covering a lot and really explaining what it is and why it's so important and how it works.

  So stay tuned.

  [00:01:00]

  Lorne Brown: Welcome back to the podcast, Lauren. Excited to have you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Michelle, I'm so excited to be back with you as well. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in the past. Really excited about the conversation we had that showed up on the Conscious Fertility Podcast with you, and happy to talk low level laser with you today.

  Lorne Brown: Yes. So last time we got really deep on the conscious fertility and spirituality, and I. Love that quantum. And today we're gonna talk a little more about laser therapy and how that can benefit fertility, egg quality. I'm very excited to hear more about this.

  Michelle Oravitz: Same. I, how do you wanna start? 'cause we could go, you and I could go for hours

  Lorne Brown: we can, [00:02:00] for sure. So for people who have never really heard of laser. Therapy low level laser therapy. Right. That's that's really LLLT

  Michelle Oravitz: Triple L, low level. It's got a couple of names. So in the old days they called it cold laser 'cause it's the non heating laser, the class three B that we're ta that you and I are gonna talk about. Then it became known as low level laser therapy because they wanted to differentiate between the high powered ones.

  Michelle Oravitz: Like there are lasers that can cut and burn and sculpt you. People know about sculpting, hair removal surgeons, about cutting. That's not what we're talking about. So it had the term low level laser therapy which is what I think the public knows. So we usually use that term a lot. But in the scientific community, they adopted the term photo biomodulation photon.

  Michelle Oravitz: Photons, light, bio, the body modulation, can it make change to the body? And and that's because systems have both laser [00:03:00] diodes and LEDs as their way to put photons into the body. So low level laser therapy is inaccurate 'cause some of the systems are using LEDs. but we use 'em interchangeably, photobiomodulation and LLLT, low level laser therapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: If people are Googling it, that's what you would put in.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, because that's, I think that's like the common term for it where people are gonna search it for it now. I remember watching a video like years ago, I think it was during the pandemic, talking about like really the sun and cellular melatonin and then talking about really, 'cause that that's kind of what.

  Lorne Brown: The idea is, or part of it is really getting that cellular melatonin and that that light to induce better quality for eggs and cells. So for people who are first heard about this and don't know anything about it, can we break it down like in layman terms so that people can really understand what it is?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so I, I'll share [00:04:00] with you kind of, from our audience perspective, kind of what they really wanna know. 'cause I, I get these questions a lot, so I'll share that. And, and I think it's important to share kind of just how it kind of started with fertility. In general with low level laser therapy there's this mechanism that I think we can talk about with fertility and you were mentioning like mitochondria health, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So, people in fertility understand mitochondria is really important that egg cell when it becomes the embryo, when it's, when it's disseminated by the, or fertilized by the sperm that embryo mitochondria health is dependent or determines if it has enough energy to divide, whether it's in the fallopian tube.

  Michelle Oravitz: If it's in the IVF lab trying to grow it to the blasts, so that comes from the egg that goes, becomes the embryo, it's the eggs, mitochondria, and then that energy for implantation also requires a lot of energy and that comes from the mitochondria and the mitochondria, the battery of the cells. They create the cellular currency, a TP.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's where I [00:05:00] think it all started. People got excited about it because of. When we think of women in, once they get into what they term advanced maternal age, and we have less fertility or increase in miscarriages or increase in birth defects the current scientific understanding is because these eggs are older, they have more mitochondrial dysfunction and therefore there's more genetic errors.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so the idea is maybe the light can rejuvenate these eggs. So that's kind of, I think, the thought process. But that was way back when I kind of wanna share what we know it's, it's doing and then share some of the mechanisms we understand, which is why people like yourself and me got really interested in low level laser for fertility because the mechanism is very promising.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the, it kind of. So many discoveries happen by mistake, and, and that's when it came to photo modulation for fertility. Dr. Ro [00:06:00] is a medical doctor, pain specialist in Japan, and this was in the nineties. He was treating a woman for a woman with back pain. And he had this approach that he would, and she, by the way, was not menstruating anymore.

  Michelle Oravitz: She was in that men early part of her life of menopause. He. he. would always treat around the neck and a few other areas to increase blood flow. So he had this approach where he wants to increase blood flow head to toe because if there's an injury in your back or your knee or your big toe, if we can bring blood flow to that area.

  Michelle Oravitz: That will support the healing. So he treated, he did that treatment where he created blood flow head to toe. And in his research, he actually has a really interesting diagram using thermal photography to show the increase in blood flow, head to toe after, before a session of laser therapy and then after first, and then after the fifth, and it was just quite dramatic, the change. So he treated her for several treatments. He also would go locally, so if you had knee [00:07:00] pain, he would treat with the laser over the knee pain he used, in her case, she had back pain, so he did low level laser therapy over her back as well, and she had a series of treatments and her back pain was resolved, but her cycle came back and she wasn't actually.

  Michelle Oravitz: She didn't wanna have her cycle back. So she was concerned about it and, and unhappy about it and complained to him is the story I heard. And he was like, look, I don't think it has anything to do with what I've done. Go speak to your gynecologist because you're bleeding again, and just to make sure everything's okay.

  Michelle Oravitz: In that same calendar year, another woman with back pain who wasn't menstruating was treated. So again, he did the treatment to increase blood flow. So those points you'll see in my clinic, we do a lot of points around the neck. So we're getting the carotid, the vagus nerve, a feature called the stalet ganglia.

  Michelle Oravitz: And treated her back and did several treatments and her back pain was resolved and her cycle came back and she would bleed for a couple days, almost every three to five weeks. So then he thought, huh, if we're bringing blood flow, [00:08:00] if this treatment causes blood flow, head to toe. Maybe we're bringing blood to the ovaries and we're helping rejuvenate these ovaries, and that's why these women start to cycle again.

  Michelle Oravitz: So we went and talked to a colleague, gynecologists and in their gynecology department to do a pilot study. And in that pilot study there was around 74 women. The English translation is severe infertility. I think the average age was 39. I think they had on close to nine years of infertility and 15 a RT cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they showed an over 20% pregnancy rate and over 60% live birth rate, which was quite good for that demographic. So they increased that study to 700 women and their pregnancy rate was around 23%. And the live birth rate was 50%. So that's kind of how it started. I.

  Lorne Brown: I remember seeing that study. Was that the one where they had a 50-year-old?

  Michelle Oravitz: I

  Michelle Oravitz: don't, I'd have to look.

  Lorne Brown: I actually didn't even pick up on that, believe it or not. I didn't pick up on [00:09:00] that. One of my patients did, who was a nurse, and I sent it to her. 'cause I sent her and she was like the 50-year-old. I'm like the 50-year-old.

  Lorne Brown: And then I went back and round. I'm like, oh my God. Yes, there, there was a 50-year-old.

  Michelle Oravitz: and I'd have to re-look at the data. I don't, you know, 'cause these

  Michelle Oravitz: are people natural or IVF maybe I don't think in Japan they don't do donor eggs, so it wouldn't have been a donor egg cycle. That's why Japan's so interesting to see what they do because they don't back, back in the day anyhow, they weren't doing donor egg cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they will bring in and try anything to help a woman conceive with their own eggs. 'cause they don't have, the opportunity in Japan to use donor eggs, if it's warranted. so that's kind of how it started. And then, I mean here we are now recording this in 2025, right? This is the nineties is when they had this study.

  Michelle Oravitz: I learned about this in the mid two thousands. So, you know, almost uh, over 10 years after they had done their, that first study. And I came across there was a study in 2008, an abstract that was published [00:10:00] where they did laser acupuncture, a little different than low level laser therapy 'cause they were just putting photons into acupuncture points.

  Michelle Oravitz: And in that case, they had a sham laser and a real laser and a control group. Acupuncture group. And the laser acupuncture group. And this was just immediately before and after transfer. There were. Fresh day three. So it was a while ago, right? 'cause now most cycles are blasis transfers. Most not all, and most are quite often frozen, not fresh.

  Michelle Oravitz: But this was a day three study fresh transfers. So they did that acupuncture study known as the polys protocol before and after. But they used. The laser acupuncture sham. Sham means the laser didn't work. It, it still beeped, but it didn't actually give off any photon. So the doctor nor the patient nor the acupuncturist knew they were getting laser or not laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: And in that group, the laser acupuncture had a 15 one 5% increase in implantation. And that's just on transfer day. 'cause remember, all you're doing is helping with [00:11:00] uterine receptivity with one treatment. Right. Transfer day. What UR was doing was more about egg and embryo quality 'cause he was treating them for a series of treatments.

  Michelle Oravitz: in that, in that case. And then I learned about Anne-Marie Jensen, who's a physiotherapist, trained in low-level laser therapy. And she just did some chart reviews and she shared some pretty. Ob impressive success rates with people using her system called the Giga laser that she has. We have one in Vancouver as well, a giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: And she would treat them three times a week in the follicular only. So before OB up to ovulation or if they're in an IVF up until transfer day. And so that worked out. If it's, you know, if you're menstruating fairly regular, that'd be six treatments a cycle, and she would do on average at least three to six

  Michelle Oravitz: cycles. long is each exposure?

  Michelle Oravitz: The exposure for the giga laser, it's program six is 23 minutes. So they'd have 23 minutes and she, since [00:12:00] that she's written a book and since then she's done another chart review from her data in 2021. 'cause in that the, the one where she showed really optimistic success rates with her giga laser. And we'll talk about the mechanism, why I think the giga did so well in her case.

  Michelle Oravitz: She does a lot of body work like so stretching yoga and breaking up scar tissue. So they would have the laser on the giga hovers over while she was working on their abdomen. Right. But she had a group in 20 20, 1 of 60 women where they had no practitioner, no treatment. They would just come in and do self-serve with the giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: We do this in ACU balance now too. They can just book the giga. They have to have an initial consult for safety and make sure we can set up a plan for them. And it, and it's, it's a good. A good choice for them. So she does that in her clinic and they would come in on average two to three times a week, and she looked at their success rate based on age and again, really good.

  Michelle Oravitz: Results using her system, the giga laser. And for those that you know, you don't need the giga laser it's [00:13:00] nice 'cause if you wanna repeat what somebody else is doing that's why I like having the giga. 'cause Anne-Marie has so many cases that she could share with us. But you know, if you look at the Giga has like 36 laser diodes plus 144 LED diodes, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So it's a lot of lights that they have. So it covers a large area. But if, you know, if you play with the math a practitioner can try to replicate that with their system. It may require more time or other things, but you can do your best to replicate. Here's now where we get into the mechanism and, and there's been more studies. I'll, I'll give one more research and then I want to kind of talk about the mechanism and why I think it's of interest and hopefully more research will, will come down the pipeline on using low level laser therapy. So there was a study done in, in mice that I thought was really interesting where they lasered just one ovary.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they literally did an incision, pulled out the ovary, lasered it. Put the ovary back in, stitched up [00:14:00] the mouse and put it through an IVF cycle. And the mice that had their ovaries lasered that ovary, so if it was the left only versus the right that had better they had a better response to the, to the IVF and they made better embryos.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that was a pretty interesting study. Now, now, now the mechanism, like why are we interested in what can be happening? Because we have a sense that it can help. Annemarie's done a lot of case reporting. There have been studies now using lasers for advanced paternal age and PCOS endometriosis.

  Michelle Oravitz: Again, I'm talking low level laser therapy. I wanna keep. Repeating that Michelle. 'cause somebody's a physician may be thinking they're laser and going,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's

  Michelle Oravitz: we're talking class three Bs, low level laser therapy. And so PCOS endometriosis, sperm, so studies on sperm as well. There's studies using it where people have had recurrent implantation failure.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they've done. [00:15:00] Multiple IVF cycles with genetically screened embryos. And then they do the laser and, and they see an improvement in that implantation uterine receptivity. There have been studies just looking at the uterus and Petri dish and doing different doses of laser showing enzymes and gene expression for uni receptivity.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. So, you know, we're starting to understand the mechanism, so we're seeing that it can help in some cases and, and here's why I got interested in it. So obviously like you, when I learn of something that can help our patients, I get very interested. They're so motivated, they invest so much time, money, and emotions into this journey.

  Michelle Oravitz: When I heard about the 2008 abstract I called the IVF clinic. I talked to one of the IVF doctors involved in that clinic. In that study, I talked to the acupuncturist and we started using that laser. We actually bought that laser and started just doing transfer

  Lorne Brown: And this is the giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: This was the Luminex laser back in 2008.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause that's what was used in the transfer day study. That company's outta business now. [00:16:00] I still have the Luminex lasers, but when they have issues, you know, they're, I don't have anybody to repair them yet. I have a lot of laser systems in my clinic over the years, but that was kinda the first system I bought.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause I wanted to replicate what they're doing in the IVF setting and so, that's, you know, a system we used to just lose on use on transfer day. Then I heard about Oshiro and I started learning more. There was oh, the Brain's Way of Healing by Norman Dets. Chapter four was on using a laser for people with brain injuries, but he started sharing a couple cases of women that had endometriosis and aosis.

  Michelle Oravitz: And Fred Khan is a vascular surgeon who went into laser therapy, and he's passed now, but I got to meet him several years ago. He had noticed that when he was treating these women that their pain and inflammation would go away, and a lot of them wouldn't need surgery

  Michelle Oravitz: because of

  Michelle Oravitz: this.

  Lorne Brown: incredible.

  Michelle Oravitz: And just another tangent.

  Michelle Oravitz: When I was visiting Australia, I went to Roberta [00:17:00] Chow's Clinic. She's known for her publication in the Lancet, really respected medical journal journal for using low-level laser therapy for neck pain. I. Showing positive results. And she's a medical doctor, trained in acupuncture, trained in low level laser therapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: And when I was at her clinic they shared that they do see a large number of women diagnosed with endometriosis. And a lot of them had had symptom relief and had gone on to conceive naturally with the diagnosis of endometriosis.

  Lorne Brown: Hashimoto's

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, there's, it's been used, you know, great point. There is some studies using it on the thyroid.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause we used to think not to do it over the thyroid, but now for Hashimoto's and thyroiditis, they have shown that it, it can help with that as well. And so, going back to like that research and, and studying what and, and why we like this mechanism is the laser understanding is the mitochondria function.

  Michelle Oravitz: So we've heard about that. But when. When Oshiro thought it [00:18:00] was blood flow that he thought, oh, maybe it's 'cause we're increasing blood flow, that we're seeing ovarian rejuvenation. So maybe this is why it's helping. I was thinking, I wonder if there's something else because hey, we do acupuncture and acupuncture's really good for blood flow as well, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So we got that covered. What else could it be doing? And there was the mitochondria. So, they show that low level laser therapy, when the photons can reach the, the cell that we want it to reach, it will absorb those photons and it will improve mitochondrial function and a TP. And we mention how that's important for early embryo development in the fallopian tube or in the IVF lab and for implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Then we've learned later. 'cause I was trying to think, why did the gig have such good success rates that giga laser system and 'cause they did it just over the lower abdomen. That's where how they did it. And I was thinking, okay, theirs was a much more powerful laser than Oshiro was using a system that has, I think maybe had one to three diodes,

  Michelle Oravitz: but the

  Michelle Oravitz: total.

  Lorne Brown: this on the [00:19:00] lower back, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: He, well, he did it on the lower back for back pain, but his real treatment was around the neck and a point halfway between the nave and the xiphoid are re 12 celiac plexus. And he did that because it increases parasympathetic

  Michelle Oravitz: response. Okay. So increases blood flow. I. So the giga laser people, and again we, we, I, I really do like the laser for the following reasons.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I, I, you know, I was trying to understand, I wonder why the giga lasers got such good results. And I was like, okay, it has more, it's given off a lot more photons than what a Shera was. So we're getting more photons into the body. The size of it is 500 centimeters squared. It's, it covers a large area, so it's not only over the uterus, the Aries, and the fallopian tube, it's over the intestines.

  Michelle Oravitz: You're probably getting a bit of the spleen, the liver

  Michelle Oravitz: as well, you know the organs,

  Lorne Brown: with endometriosis and kinda, you know,

  Michelle Oravitz: You're getting a lot of photons into the lower abdomen. Into the pelvis. Right. And, and a lot more photons. 'cause there's so much more power and you're doing it for 23 minutes. And so I thought maybe [00:20:00] that's why theirs does, has helped since then.

  Michelle Oravitz: Here's what I've learned, 'cause that was back in, you over 10 years ago, right? We're. 15 years ago probably that I learned about it. Like it's somewhere around, where are we? 2025? Somewhere around 20. I've been using it since 2008, but somewhere around probably 2013 ish I really got into, or 2012 into photo bi modulation.

  Michelle Oravitz: And since

  Michelle Oravitz: then

  Michelle Oravitz: we've learned, it's been a while since then, we've learned that it impacts the microbiome. So the gig is over the abdomen. And I was thinking the microbiome, well, we know how much the microbiome is involved in hormonal regulation and in inflammation. Now reproductive medicine has linked implantation to the uterine microbiome.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so you've got a mouth microbiome, you know, gut microbiome and all that stuff is influencing everything, right? And so. I was like, oh, the giga must be helping. 'cause it's also dealing with the microbiome. And the [00:21:00] microbiome impacts skin health. 'cause think of the inflammation, right? Impacts mood. I mean, it impacts our hormones, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So I thought, oh, that's probably a big part of it. And then we've learned that it also helps regulate, I. Blood sugars and think of metabolic disorders like PCOS that have severe blood sugar issues and metabolic disorders. They don't ovulate as well. They may have a lot of eggs, but often there's poor quality because of the environment, right, that these follicles mature in.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so the lasers helping with. Blood sugar regulation. So there's all these mechanisms that it can do, and which is why I, I like the laser and the way I like to share or describe it to my patients is I like to use this metaphor. From Nourish the Soul. Before you plant the seed, it's a Chinese saying, and when it comes to fertility, nourish the soul before you plant the seed and the story goes, you know, if you had a plant and you neglected it and it looked a little withered and dry, rather than composting it, [00:22:00] if you just add more water.

  Michelle Oravitz: Maybe pull some weeds, add a little fertilizer, make sure it's getting sunlight. This plant often can regain, regain its vigor and give off fruits and flowers. You've done this, right? I know. I've done this. You've done this right for a plant. So the plant always had the potential to give off fruits and flowers, but the soil was suboptimal, so the plant couldn't reach that potential.

  Michelle Oravitz: We didn't do donor roots. It's the same roots, same plant, but the soil was suboptimal. So by adding water, pulling weeds, adding nutrients like fertilizer, make sunlight, the

  Michelle Oravitz: plant was able to reach its potential. So in this metaphor, the plant is the egg cell or the sperm cell, right? And the soil is your cellular environment.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so let's look at the laser now from a plant metaphor and think about it from the body's perspective. So. When the plan absorbs sunlight, it creates photosynthesis and it creates energy. Well, same thing. When our [00:23:00] cells absorb light, the mitochondria improves mitochondrial function and improves cellular energy.

  Michelle Oravitz: We need this. When the mitochondria get old and worn out, we get old and worn out and we die. Same thing with the egg cell, right? So it's really important. So there's a mitochondria part, blood flow. What we know as a woman ages her blood flow to the reproductive system decreases, and if we can increase blood flow to the reproductive system, this is a good thing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. And so we know that low level laser therapy can increase blood flow. This is watering the plant, making sure there's enough moisture so water can get to those roots. So low level laser therapy increases blood flow and circulation. I. If you have nutritional deficiencies, right? So we said we add fertilizer.

  Michelle Oravitz: So, you know, in our practice that would be dietary therapy. That could be supplements, Chinese herbs, but guess what? There's research showing that when you use low level laser therapy, the cells absorb the nutrients better. There's one done with mice on [00:24:00] coq 10. And you know, a lot of our patients take coq 10.

  Michelle Oravitz: So all these supplements that you're taking, you may even get more benefit from them because if the cell is functioning better, it's going to have a better efficiency at absorbing. Think of your body metabolism. You can eat a good diet, but if you have poor digestion, you may not absorb all those nutrients and you are just made up of trillions of cells.

  Michelle Oravitz: So if you are having all these health issues, then these cells

  Lorne Brown: All these supplements that people are taking, all the money they're

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, Yeah, so the laser will help with that. Let's go into inflammation. So inflammation, and there's a term I play with a medical term called inflammaging. And what that is is chronic systemic inflammation. So inflammaging, and when it comes to fertility, we wanna be as biologically young as possible.

  Michelle Oravitz: And with inflammaging, what we have is accelerated biological aging. Due to systemic inflammation, and this leads to premature degenerative diseases. I [00:25:00] say premature fertility issues as well. There is now literature out there and talk about how this chronic systemic inflammation is one of the culprits behind unexplained infertility and miscarriages.

  Michelle Oravitz: We already know it in PCOS, so that is known. And endometriosis, it's so obvious. The inflammation's there, but that subtle inflammation is not always as obvious. And that's what we call inflammaging. So low-level laser therapy has been shown to help with chronic help regulate inflammation. And I say regulate inflammation.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause often we say it reduces, it's more of a regulator. And I'll say this for this reason, you know, when around implantation ovulation, we don't, we don't want people to take anti-inflammatories 'cause we need a little bit of inflammation. Like we do need inflammation in our body for healing. You don't wanna shut it down and that's why you don't take it around ovulation or implantation because that could interfere with implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Little tangent to tie into why laser's, okay? [00:26:00] 'cause it regulates inflammation. We know this, that's why it's used so much in pain and injuries 'cause it regulates inflammation. So there goes the pain and

  Michelle Oravitz: swelling and accelerates

  Lorne Brown: difference is um, lowering inflammation versus regulating information.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and the difference is as follows, and there's a great back study to, to illustrate this. It's downregulating, the bad inflammatory cytokines, and it's upregulating the good ones. Right, and so it's not shutting it down. When you take an anti-inflammatory, it shuts everything down. The laser is regulating, so some are being reduced.

  Michelle Oravitz: The ones that aren't gonna help us, that cause a lot of pain and infl and swelling, and then some are gonna actually help with the healing. That's why inflammation, when you have an injury and your is a normal response that the body should have. We need it for healing, we need it for ovulation implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the back study, if I may, for a little tangent. They looked at a study and people that have ac acute back pain often when they get on these pain meds. So these anti-inflammatories, these strong [00:27:00] pain meds, they end up with chronic back pain because although they've shut down the pain, the inflammation's, no pain, they also shut down the healing response and therefore later on you end up with chronic back pain.

  Michelle Oravitz: ' cause the Bach didn't get to heal when they did the study. They sh and it was in the NIH that had recommended that. Like acupuncture, massage, yoga, low level laser therapy were suggested to be used before you use pharmaceuticals or NSAIDs. Because of that reason. 'cause it will, the low level laser therapy will regulate.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the difference is when I see people for pain and they come in we will help reduce the pain with the low level laser therapy. 'cause it's bringing down those inflammatory markers that create the pain. In the swelling, but it's not shutting down those inflammatory pathways that are gonna help with healing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Plus we're using, plus the mitochondria that have been damaged and the injury get rejuvenated, so it accelerates healing and reduces pain. If you use an nsaid, [00:28:00] you're just reducing all inflammation. So no pain. But also you're slowing down the healing process and now you're at risk of chronic pain later on.

  Michelle Oravitz: Tying this into fertility, 'cause some people are concerned, oh my god. If it regulates inflammation, maybe I shouldn't do it. It's not like an nsaid, it's not turning off inflammation. It's regulating. Okay. It's a regulating process. And so based on that thinking, not as much concerned. Stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: Stress can. So things that can affect inflammation, since we're talking about inflammation. Inflammation, a bad diet can affect inflammation. Your gut microbiome can lead to inflammation. So we talked about how the laser can help with the gut microbiome. It can't help with your diet. You have to choose a good

  Michelle Oravitz: diet.

  Lorne Brown: to do that by yourself.

  Michelle Oravitz: We know that it helps regulate inflammation in the body, so just general inflammation. Also stress. Stress can cause inflammation. So chronic stress, worry you start to release, you know, more cortisol all the adrenal hormones and that leads to [00:29:00] chronic systemic inflammation too. If you're constantly

  Michelle Oravitz: stressed,

  Lorne Brown: impacts your gut microbiome too.

  Michelle Oravitz: got stress impacts everything, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Because the body.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: When you're under, when your body doesn't feel safe, when it's an alarm, your resources are diverted from digestion and reproduction and to go into survival mode so you could fight or flight. And so, oshiro, when he did his treatment, the Japanese medical doctor, pain specialist, his treatment to help with blood flow was to activate the parasympathetic.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he was doing treatment around the carotid. You talked about that. So happens that if he's treating around the carotid, he's also getting the vagus nerve. The Stite ganglia our stomach 11 and acupuncture. If you get the right dose in there, at least 15 JUULs, we try to aim in our clinic for about 25 JUULs.

  Michelle Oravitz: It can create that parasympathetic response. Just so you know, there's research when they use. So the Western medicine knows this. They do a stoic ganglia injection when people have like thoracic outlet syndrome and [00:30:00] all these issues to kinda free get rid of the pain, right? Well, when you stick a needle in there, you need an ultrasound and it's risky.

  Michelle Oravitz: You, there is, it's a risky procedure.

  Lorne Brown: yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's risky, but. RO showed with low-level laser therapy. If you put in, again, I'll say I like 25 joules. I think looking at research, I'm going by memory here. It had to be at least 15 joules, at least that you get into that area to have the effect. But there was a study that came out recently on using this, the injection for.

  Michelle Oravitz: Post-traumatic stress disorder and anxiety. It came out and they talked about their sleep and their mood and well, not surprising. Why is that impacting PTSD? Why does it impact sleep and anxiety? You're engaged in the parasympathetic, the rest and digest, also known as the breed and feed, and so, and then that's the point he did over the abdomen, which so happens the giga is over.

  Michelle Oravitz: Rent 12.

  Lorne Brown: Right?

  Michelle Oravitz: There's been research when you use low level laser therapy over there, it's, if you wanna search it, [00:31:00] LLT over the Clic Plexus, I think he called it the alpha sweep. He had this process, he did the doctor outta Germany, and it showed a parasympathetic response. So the low level laser therapy can have that autonomic nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Reduction, right? Like, how I, I wanna say differently. That overstimulated nervous system, that sympathetic high drive where you're not sleeping, you get headaches, your neck and shoulders are sore, you're getting hands and feet are cold, poor guts. Easily irritable, poor gut, like digestion. All that are, could be signs of sympathetic overdrive, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: And remember, when you're in sympathetic, don't feel safe. The blood flow is diverted from reproduction, digestion to go to your major muscles, right? Your heart starts pumping. When you are in parasympathetic, the rest and digest breed and feed emphasis on breed for our audience. Blood flow and resources return to digestion and reproduction, and so there goes more blood flow to the [00:32:00] reproductive system.

  Michelle Oravitz: And when your autonomic nervous system is happy, when you're more parasympathetic than sympathetic, we need both. It's a yin yang balance. We're just way too much in sympathetic. Thank you to social media.

  Michelle Oravitz: And all the crazy politicians of our world we're, we're really, you know, in sympathetic a lot. And when we're there reproduction gets down regulated.

  Michelle Oravitz: And we're in this stress response, so it's not surprising that you see more health issues. And there's a study in the West called Psycho Neural immunology, PNI, some now have named it PNEI, psycho Neuroendocrine Immunology. And basically it's the research around your thoughts and your feelings, and we have data to show you that they impact your nervous system, your endocrine system, your hormonal system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Your immune system? Well, the nervous system, hormonal system, immune system, low fertility, that's a [00:33:00] huge, that's gonna affect the whole hypothalamus, pituitary ovarian axis for regular ovulation and the balance of hormones, the progesterone, estrogen, and we start having all these stress hormones and inflammation and poor blood flow.

  Michelle Oravitz: There goes your microbiome. There goes. Optimizing your fertility, right? You're, you're downregulating. So this is why I think acupuncture and I also, if low level laser therapy is used in a certain way, you can really support the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system, which will then help you get into that parasympathetic response.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so when you start to think, and it also one more. The Lolo La Elizabeth laser therapy is shown to help with oxidative stress. Remember we said pulling out weeds from the garden? So oxidative stress is not great for sperm. It's not great for egg quality. And as we age, especially into our mid thirties and beyond, it seems like the cells and the egg cells for sure they've noticed don't have as much resilience to deal with the oxidative stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: They, and so they [00:34:00] get more damaged again, so. That's why a nice antioxidant diet is good and rest and stress reduction 'cause all those things, poor diet. And, and stress can impact oxidative stress in your body. It's just a byproduct of, of being alive. Think of it as when you, you're cutting your lawn the byproducts all that dirty grass on your lawn, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So that's the oxidative stress. But if you put a bag over the lawnmower, you don't make a mess, right? So you want to do things to deal with the. Free radicals. Another people call it body rust as well, oxidative stress or free radical damage. Bottom line is oxidative stress. Too much of it is really harmful to your cells, and particularly the sperm cell and the egg cell and photobiomodulation low level laser therapy has been shown to also.

  Michelle Oravitz: Lower oxidative stress. So when you think about how it has the potential, and I say potential because it's gotta get to that cell and and just putting light on somebody doesn't mean it's gonna work. Like you can [00:35:00] stand in front of your Christmas tree, those are LEDs, red lights and yellows, but I don't think it's gonna have a therapeutic effect.

  Michelle Oravitz: So there's gotta be. There's certain wavelengths that are more beneficial than others. And then there's power that's important and irradiance. Which is another form of how many joules you're getting into this little area, you know? Joules per centimeter squared, for example, and total JUULs. So many people are just putting light systems on them.

  Michelle Oravitz: A lot of them are on Amazon and I don't know, they haven't been studied, so I don't know if they can or cannot help, but. There to be therapeutic. The light does have to get received by the cell, and there's a lot of

  Michelle Oravitz: factors.

  Lorne Brown: the skin to go deep.

  Michelle Oravitz: The potential benefits that are can improve mitochondrial function, can improve blood flow and circulation can support your cell's Ability to absorb nutrients from diet and supplements can help with the gut microbiome, can lower oxidative stress, can regulate [00:36:00] inflammation and calm the nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: That to me is why I'm so interested in low level laser therapy, and in our clinic we're usually putting it around the neck. It's over the abdomen, so it's over the ovaries, the uterus and the, and the gut microbiome where you're doing stuff on the sacrum. So we're, we kind of took what they were doing with the giga at Annemarie's clinic and then what we saw them doing with the Japanese group, URS group, how they did around the neck.

  Michelle Oravitz: We call it the modified technique. And then when I talk to. Roberta Chow in Australia and Fred Kahn, they were doing a lot of sacrum work for those that had endometriosis. Put this all together pre COVID. I'm actually going to visit them in a couple of weeks. So I'm going to Japan,

  Michelle Oravitz: so

  Lorne Brown: you.

  Lorne Brown: I

  Michelle Oravitz: see what new, we'll see what more information I have for you.

  Michelle Oravitz: But I, I interviewed Dr. Nakamura. And Ty and Joe who speaks both [00:37:00] Japanese English, who's an acupuncturist, was my translator. Funny story. I'll, I'll tell you the funny story is I wanted, I meet Shiro and so I went. Created a letter and used Google Translate to put it to English, to Japanese, and I sent it to all the clinics I could find in Japan that might be doing fertility and had an o Shiro on their, on their websites.

  Michelle Oravitz: And I sent it. Nobody responded, but I did find takin who is a, who lives in Japan, but was at the time, lived in California, speaks both languages beautifully. And we connected and he became my translator. He did read my letter and laughingly said, you know, there's a hierarchy of, of, of respect when you talk to somebody in Japanese.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he said, he's not surprised. Nobody responded to my letter. Google Translate did not do a good job.

  Lorne Brown: Oh, that's so funny.

  Michelle Oravitz: But, but anyways he introduced me in Acum. He was interesting because this is pre COVID, so we're in 2025 now, [00:38:00] mid 2025. And this was before 2020. I interviewed him and he had already had 10 years of data and when he shared what he was doing, so his 10 years of data, by the way, punchline is.

  Michelle Oravitz: It doubled blasis rates. So people, women that have went through IVF cycle and went to Blasis, you know, but obviously weren't getting pregnant 'cause they keep coming back. If they did a series of laser treatments, a minimum of three to six months with his approach they would have doubled the blasts, the gut.

  Michelle Oravitz: So even though they were three to six months older, they had doubled their blasts. How many embryos grew out to the blasts stage, which takes anywhere between five to seven days to grow out. Right. He's an acupuncturist in a clinic for IVF using acupuncture, low level laser therapy. So he was using the standard Victorian electrical acupuncture protocol for blood flow.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he did that and then he did laser therapy. So I asked, what do you do? Because remember everybody I was meeting, you know, some were doing the [00:39:00] sacrum, some were just doing the abdomen, some are just doing up here. And in our clinic, we started doing it all. You know, neck, abdomen back, and he said, oh, well we do the electrical acupuncture, which we do a lot of that in our clinic with people who are going through IVF.

  Michelle Oravitz: And then he says, I will do kind of the O Sheero style, then I would laser over the ovaries. And then he went and did over the POAL nerve and the sacrum. pretty similar right. And so I came up with my protocol from talking to everybody, and it felt great when I met him because he'd been doing it already for 10 years.

  Michelle Oravitz: I've been doing it for, you know, not very long at that time. And he had data to show that increased blasts rates. So that's kind of my story of low level laser therapy. And in our practice we have many systems. We only have one Giga and from Annmarie Jensen, I interviewed her, so she's on our podcast on the Conscious Fertility Podcast.

  Michelle Oravitz: She gave me the idea, 'cause she has, she had one giga, now she has two and she has one that's made for [00:40:00] self-serve. So people can book online. They have to have it initial, then they book online and they just come in and lie on the giga for 23 minutes after her hours. 'cause she's using the giga for her with patience.

  Michelle Oravitz: So she's hands on just like I use a giga and I'm doing acupuncture at the same time. The gig goes over the acupuncture points. She has it off, off hours and her clinic's set up that you can punch in the code and then as long as you put yourself in the system, can use the giga laser off hours when she's not using it.

  Michelle Oravitz: So in our clinic we have it set up that way too, that people can do self-serve giga if it's not being used in the clinic. For themselves. I will say, 'cause we only have one and there's multiple practitioners in our clinic. It's often used because people are combining it with their acupuncture treatments to get, you know, more

  Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: for your time and money.

  Michelle Oravitz: So,

  Lorne Brown: So

  Lorne Brown: that's the one giga that you have, but what other symptom systems do you use?

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I've, I've, I've tested and played a lot, so the BioFlex system, I've had Luminex [00:41:00] paramedics, what's the one that you have? Cell?

  Michelle Oravitz: Uh, have that Ulua Ulua I use just for facial. And and other probes like we, we have a lot. And if I go back to 2008 he's retired now. He's a pharmacist that was really into low level laser therapy and I went to meet him to, 'cause he had one of the systems I wanted to buy and I told him I was interested.

  Michelle Oravitz: He gave me a book to read like a. Medical textbook on lasers. It was pretty intense. He says, read this first. So I read it, came back because he wanted to be able to have a good conversation and see how serious I was. So I read it, came back with a lot of questions, but he took me, he had a setup of two or three laser systems, one that I was interested in, and then he goes, I wanna show you something.

  Michelle Oravitz: And he takes me to his back office. He opens up the storage area and it's laser and laser systems. It was crazy. And he said, I wanna tell you before you go down this journey. That there is no one laser that fits all, like for all the things you're gonna wanna treat. And as you [00:42:00] get knowledgeable in the laser, you're gonna want different systems because this one's better for this, this one's better for that.

  Michelle Oravitz: And, and they keep evolving, right? So he goes, this is not gonna be a, a cheap habit. And I, I laughed at him thinking, great, fine. I bought my system thinking I'm good

  Michelle Oravitz: and I have spent hundreds of thousands of

  Michelle Oravitz: dollars on systems. 'cause I have a lot of systems that I play with. 'cause I, you know, I look at their data sheet, what can they do?

  Michelle Oravitz: And, and I go for it. Right? I will say my. Interest in the giga is because of Anne-Marie Jensen, because she has such good clinical retrospective, clinical charting that she has done. Like she, she published her, her clinical data that, you know, when something is working, I'm like, great.

  Michelle Oravitz: Like, you know, you've shown it. 'cause most of us when they talk about laser and for fertility, we're quoting research, but we're quoting research on somebody else's system. And so it doesn't mean just [00:43:00] because you're doing LLT that you'll get those results. You do '

  Michelle Oravitz: have to,

  Lorne Brown: like you'd have to be apples to apples.

  Michelle Oravitz: yeah. So, you know, what's the, you know, and there's a, time and power right? Makes a difference. And so to get those total jewels, that energy in there and so, you know, let's say you wanna do four jewels, just make it up. Some systems can do four jewels. In eight seconds, right? Because the power is at 500.

  Michelle Oravitz: Milliwatts, some, some systems to get the four JUULs, it may take a minute. Right. They're both four JUULs. We're learning that slower is better, so it's better to get four jus over a period of time than right away. Think of it drinking from a hose versus a fire hydrant, right? And there's a Goldilocks window, so it's, you know, the metaphors are, are looser.

  Michelle Oravitz: But you know, too little, too fast too in a short time is probably not so great. And that's where more of the high powered lasers are like that,

  Lorne Brown: But you know, that's what it's like being in the sun. That's why morning sunlight is easier [00:44:00] for your body to absorb. And then that, I always compare that, that hose

  Lorne Brown: analogy because if you go in the middle of the day, it's not great for your skin. It's, you know, higher uv rays. And so your body's able to absorb the nutrients a lot better when it's early in the morning or later at night.

  Lorne Brown: Naturally. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, and so the, yeah, I, I give you my joke about the Christmas tree, right? Stand in front of a Christmas tree. I don't think you're gonna get any benefit, even though those are, there's a lot of red LEDs on that, on that tree. A colleague of mine once. I used to do this, people would send me their laser, not their laser, they'd send me their data sheet and I'd look through it and try and do the math.

  Michelle Oravitz: Just like when I looked at the giga before I had a giga. I looked at my systems and I looked at how much was in 23 minutes based on 36 diodes, lasers, and 144 LEDs. How much is going to into the body? Don't forget, it's off the skin, not on the skin. That makes a difference. 'cause there's reflection that happens.

  Michelle Oravitz: So, as I say, like, you know, they say, and again, science is always changing, but [00:45:00] it's not so much how much photons are you're emitting is how much is this, is your body absorbing? That's the key, right? Like it doesn't go well through clothes, right? So you gotta have it on the skin, not over your clothes.

  Michelle Oravitz: You'll, you'll lose a lot based on what I understand at this point in time. Again, science can always change, but the research is you gotta absorb it. And so a colleague. Which I don't do this anymore. I'm saying this 'cause I don't want anybody to send me emails saying, look at my laser system. They would send me and I'd look at one of their systems.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they bought for like $500 and they wanna do laser acupuncture. And I know you kind of want that four to 10 JUULs per acupuncture point. And 'cause it was such a low powered laser, I said, you're gonna have to spend about five minutes or per acupuncture point. She's like, I don't have that kind of time.

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I can't do that. I go, well, that's. If you wanna get that dosage in, that's what you're gonna need to do with that laser. And she goes, well, what can I use this for? And I said, do you ever do presentations? It's an expensive PowerPoint uh, pointer. So, you know, and, and it's not regulated, [00:46:00] the, the machine.

  Michelle Oravitz: So when they test them, some of them. Don't give off the photons. They say they do 'cause it's not regulated. So you just don't know. And so clinicians, you get used to it. You see, you know, pain and injuries and scarring is really great 'cause you can see it change in a short period of time in your clinic. I happen to have a photon reader, so I've taken my systems that I've put them all under there and program it to give off so many photons.

  Michelle Oravitz: And I look at the reader to see if it's giving off the photons they say. Right. So that helps. But not everybody has one of those.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well, not everybody gets as in depth as you do, which is great. It's great for you, you know, like for your clinic 'cause you know it's working.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well you get, you get geeky, right? I like to geek out and, and then the do the part for our listeners is what we've seen out there for pain and injuries and what we've seen for fertility from Osro, the Japanese doctor. And Anne-Marie Jensen is dosage. So time-wise it's not a one [00:47:00] treatment and you're done.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's kinda like, you know, that laser acupuncture study on the transfer day, that was one treatment and done. I'm surprised there was any benefit from just one treatment. She did it and most of them say two to three treatments. A week is what you're looking at. You're looking for minimum three cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: Think of the a hundred days of follicular genesis. So those last a hundred days are really important for your, eggs or follicles to reach their peak potential. Right? And so, and Nakamura said as well, three to six months, people can go longer, but you usually see some good shift within that three to six months.

  Michelle Oravitz: So you're Anne Marie prefers three times a week in the follicular. So that's, six treatments, a cycle, menstrual cycle. And by the way, if you're on Lupron or you're not trying to conceive same sex couple, there's no chance of a pregnancy. You can do it all month long, right? They just don't want you to put the photons over a developing embryo, so they don't want it over the sacrum.

  Michelle Oravitz: Or over the lower abdomen after ovulation or after transfer. In our [00:48:00] practice we see people all month long, but again, because of our training and understanding in the ltil phase, if we know there's a chance of pregnancy chance. Then we use it differently. So we're using it over certain areas of the spine for nerve innervation that goes to the ovaries.

  Michelle Oravitz: We're using it over the microbiome, so we're using it high up, so kind of the navel up. So we're getting to the, the liver and the small intestines. So getting into that microbiome. Impact as well. And then we continue to do the osiro and other things for st oh stem cell proliferation. I didn't mention that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Below level age of therapy when it's done over certain bones, like the sternum or the tibia. 'cause you gotta access the bone has been shown to increase stem cell proliferation. I mean, if only we could tell those stem cells to go to the ovaries, but at least we're pro causing more of a proliferation, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So, that's what I would recommend. If you're looking for it you probably want to do it. At least twice a week. The first couple of cycles, ideals, probably three times a week from what we've [00:49:00] seen. And then you can cut it back 'cause you do build up accumulation of photons. Like it kind of has an cumulative effect.

  Michelle Oravitz: So you kind of wanna get that momentum going. And then as the body starts to be more efficient, think about it as the cells are healing. Inflammation's dropping, nutrition's improving mi. The mitochondrias balance, your blood flows improved. It makes sense that you don't need as much 'cause your body's functioning right.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's kind of doing its own thing. Eventually you get to take it away, the laser or everything you're doing because your body is now has that Healing ability primed up. Right. And so that's kind of what we recommend. And for my patients and people around the world, 'cause they like to chat, I sometimes will recommend certain home systems I like.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some people can't get to a clinic like yours or a clinic like mine. So there's a couple of systems I. I did look at that I like, and then I teach them how to use it. How I would use it for these home systems. I have one of these home systems in my home because my family uses it for their [00:50:00] aches and pains,

  Michelle Oravitz: because, so it's not just for fertility, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. You, you know, it's kind of like everybody should have one of these in their medicine cabinet. A good laser system for, you know, cuts and bruises and, and tears and aches and

  Michelle Oravitz: pains. It's wonderful. Right.

  Lorne Brown: Which systems do you recommend at home?

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, I like the BioFlex system again, I put it on my reader, so it's giving, they have a home system, so it's giving, I, I could read the photons coming off of it. And they have a couple of uh, programs. So I looked at the programs to see kind of what frequency they've set it at. and it's a nice little pad that fits nicely over the lower abdomen and the sacrum.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they can even put it around the carotid and the vagus nerve. so I teach them how to use that. Paramedics sends people probes. I thought they were, they're more, they're lasers. They're, I, they're more like for professional use. But they seem to they do I not seem, I know they do because I've had the, the public con contacts me saying, I have this paramedic probe how can I use it for fertility?

  Michelle Oravitz: And so they'll set up a [00:51:00] consult and I will you know, we'll sit there and we'll go over it and show them where to put it and how long, et cetera. So those are the two. That I looked at and kind of spent some time with it. I used to, people would contact me and say, can you review this system? Because I bought this system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Can you show me how to use it at home? I. I stopped just 'cause I don't have the time to do that, to learn every system. It takes time to go through it. I have to contact a lot of the manufacturers and a lot of them don't share their actual power and all the things that they say it can do. It's, it's not, I.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sitting in front of my face on the website. It's a big dig. And then unfortunately, a lot of times when I looked into it, I didn't like to be the bear of bad news, but I was like, this is like a Christmas tree in my mind. Like, I don't think this is gonna do anything, even though they spent $3,000 on it. So I, I, you know, I don't wanna be, you know, they shoot the messenger sometimes.

  Michelle Oravitz: I don't want to be the bear bad news. So, I tend not to do that at this point in time. Look at everybody's systems really because of it's just time. I, I [00:52:00] wanna have. Health balance myself, right? So I can't say yes to everything. However, I do consult people and I share with the two systems that I've looked at.

  Michelle Oravitz: I've done enough of that for other people that here's what I would do if I was at home

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, that's great. It's good to know that people have that option in case they don't really have an acupuncturist that has the. You know, high quality system. And this has been great, Lauren. This is great information. I've learned a lot too myself, and it's really fascinating. You should do a seminar on this or have you, done a course on this for

  Michelle Oravitz: I have in process one for us, the profession, and one for the public. So, I said this ages ago, so I'm not even gonna put a date on it, but I do have a window open where I started to go through it with some images and just sharing why the ideas, and then for my colleagues to kind of walk them through what you want to target and what kind of jewels or time you want.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some places like the carotid is, all about time.[00:53:00]

  Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: Style ganglia is very important. JUULs how much energy you put

  Michelle Oravitz: So I, and I'll explain that to my, to our colleagues. Um, So then they can look at their system and say, okay, to get 25 JUULs in this area, I need to do it this long,

  Michelle Oravitz: or.

  Lorne Brown: like

  Lorne Brown: That

  Michelle Oravitz: stuff.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that, that's my plan. 'cause that's what I did. Like I have multiple systems and I kept on playing with the math to do this. Right. And we go on site in Vancouver to the Olive Fertility Clinic. They're one of the largest in Canada. They happen to be in Vancouver. I. And we use both acupuncture and laser on transfer day and we go on site.

  Michelle Oravitz: Quick note, if I may, 'cause I forgot to mention this. They did a chart review with us two years of data where we looked at genetically screened embryos, so the PGTs and they, they did this 'cause they wanted to see if what we were doing with the acupuncture and laser was helping with uterine receptivity and they wanted to rule out embryo issue.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that's why they, they wanted to look at genetically screened embryos versus just non-screen, right? Because maybe it's not [00:54:00] implanted 'cause of embryo issue. And our group over that two years of data, those that had the acupuncture. Right before and after onsite at Olive with the laser acupuncture, we had a higher pregnancy rate and a lower miscarriage rate.

  Michelle Oravitz: And then we looked at, again, wasn't a study, it was a chart review, everybody. Then we went and looked at those patients and the ones that did a series of treatments leading up to transfer. So they did acupuncture and or acupuncture and laser for a series of treatments, a minimum of seven before the transfer.

  Michelle Oravitz: Then plus that treatment we do on transfer day, they had a much higher pregnancy rate and lower miscarriage rate. The point is, dosage matters. So if you are doing an IVF and you have somebody in your area, my recommendation is you're going in for a series of treatments. So if you're doing a frozen embryo transfer, at least start around your ashtrays and do that two to three times a week leading up to the transfer. And on transfer day, if they can go on site. And if you're doing a retrieval, you want to do at least a hundred days, right? And if you [00:55:00] have PCOS, if you have endometriosis, if you're in your forties or.

  Michelle Oravitz: Repeated IVF implantations don't work or miscarriages, then you may need even more time. So, don't hesitate. I still, I do a lot of education. I still get people contacting me just for transfer day or a week out from transfer. And we treat what, you know, we, we start, 'cause we've seen it helps just on transfer day.

  Michelle Oravitz: However, we know that if we have a series of treatments for months. Before a transfer or a retrieval we suspect we'll get better results because of that soil that we get to, to support.

  Lorne Brown: Amazing. This is such great information, Lauren, and for people, I know you've been on here before, but if they haven't heard your previous podcast, how can people find you?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Best thing is to go to accu balance.ca, spelled with one C. It has links to our Instagram. We have so many blogs on low level laser therapy for fertility, so there are a lot if you go into the blog section. So that'd be the best way. And then. The Conscious [00:56:00] Fertility Podcast to subscribe. We pretty much release once a once a week an episode, and a lot of it's on unconsciousness.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's why we had you on there.

  Michelle Oravitz: and sometimes it's just straight fertility with like a reproductive endocrinologist as well. So I say follow me on the Conscious Fertility Podcast and then check out acu balance.ca with one C. And they can grab a free fertility diet. It's on the homepage.

  Michelle Oravitz: That we wrote, and they can look at our blogs that we have on low level laser therapy.

  Lorne Brown: Awesome. Phenomenal. Well, thank you so much Lauren, for coming on today. This was amazing information. I know a lot of people are gonna get benefits from listening to this 'cause I think, you know, you hear these things, you hear about them, but you don't really understand the mechanism, how it works, what it is, and what the difference is really with what you buy on Amazon versus other brands.

  Lorne Brown: So this is really, really tremendous information. So thank you so much.

  Michelle Oravitz: Thank you, Michelle.

  [00:57:00] [00:58:00]

Ep 342 The Hidden Reason Your Fertility May Be Declining—And How to Reverse It

Did you know your fertility could be declining due to something deeper than hormone levels or age? In this solo episode, I explore a powerful yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive health through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): Kidney Qi.

In TCM, the kidneys are not just responsible for filtering blood—they are the energetic source of your reproductive potential. I unpack how Kidney Jing (essence), Yin and Yang imbalances, and pre-heaven vs. post-heaven Qi all influence egg and sperm quality, libido, menstrual health, and even your nervous system. You’ll learn how to recognise the signs of weakened Kidney Qi and discover lifestyle, nutrition, and mindset shifts to nourish this vital essence naturally.

This episode is packed with practical tips and ancient wisdom to help you reverse the hidden energetic causes of declining fertility and move forward with more confidence and vitality.


Key Takeaways: 

• In Chinese medicine, fertility is rooted in Kidney Jing, the essence we inherit from our parents and support throughout life.

• Signs of depleted Kidney Qi can include fatigue, night sweats, low libido, shortened cycles, delayed ovulation, and emotional anxiety.

• Anti-aging and egg/sperm quality are closely tied to mitochondrial health, which reflects the state of your Kidney Qi.

• Lifestyle factors like sleep, stress, nutrition, and warmth (especially around your lower back and feet) can significantly boost reproductive vitality.

• Foods that nourish Kidney Jing include bone broth, goji berries, black sesame seeds, walnuts, seaweed, dark leafy greens, and cooked foods over raw.

• Practices like acupuncture, meditation, and even visualisation can support Kidney Qi and overall reproductive wellness.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: Episode number 342 of the Wholesome Fertility podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into one of the most foundational and fascinating concept and traditional Chinese medicine when it comes to fertility, and that is kidney Q and egg quality.

  Michelle: So in traditional Chinese medicine, the kidneys are considered the root of life, the source of our deepest energy called Jing or essence. And this Jing is what governs our ability to reproduce and to age gracefully and to maintain vitality. I. And this really is something that we see often being reflected in egg quality, which is closely tied to mitochondrial health.

  Michelle: So today I'm going to be talking about egg quality as far as how it relates to kidney chi and how. It is impacted by [00:01:00] lifestyle, food, and even energetic practices that support and preserve your kidney chi. We'll talk about foods that can support both kidney chi and then in turn will support egg quality and how visualizations and nervous system regulation can also help that root energy that supports reproductive potential.

  Michelle: So stick around to the end 'cause I'm gonna be also sharing a great resource on how you can implement certain tools. In order to balance out your nervous system and really optimize it for the best chances of conception.

  Michelle: So traditional Chinese medicine views the kidneys as [00:02:00] being one of the most important organs when it comes to fertility health. Now I know that the kidneys in Western medicine are really organs that filter out your blood to produce urine, but in Chinese medicine it is looked at. As really the essence that we have, not just after we're born, but actually before we're born.

  Michelle: So this is something that is considered pre heaven, qi, pre heaven, kidney chi and essence from the kidneys. So the kidneys and Chinese medicine really are. Central to puberty, and it really starts from there and holding the essence in our bodies that are going to be supporting reproductive health. Not only that, having that kidney chi, we also treat a lot of people who are going through menopause and supporting kidney chi because it really holds the essence of anti-aging.

  Michelle: Because of that, it [00:03:00] is correlated. There's a bridge or a reflection in what we see in Western medicine as higher mitochondrial health when it comes to egg quality. And if you are on the fertility journey, I'm going to guess that you have looked into egg quality protocols and. Already aware of how important it is to have good quality, but also to have good sperm quality because both are really important when it comes to reproductive health.

  Michelle: And both of those are impacted by kidney chi. So with kidney chi overall, one of the things that they look at is kidney yin and kidney yang. So those are really the two opposite aspects of. The yin and the yang that are actually housed in the kidneys. Most of the time women are really rich in kidney yin when they're born, and men are really rich with kidney yang, which is a little more fire and women have a little more cooling.

  Michelle: I. And what you'll find is as women [00:04:00] age and they even go into menopause, they start to lose that cooling aspect, which is one of the reasons why they'll start to get hot flashes because the yin, which is the cooling aspect of the body and the kidneys isn't rich enough at that point. To cool the fire. So what happens is when it gets lower, the fire starts to rise up.

  Michelle: It's not being held, and this is why people will have hot flashes and you'll find also that they'll have a lot of night sweats at night, which means that nighttime, which is a yin time, is not as strong because the body doesn't have as much guin at that time. So it's not able to contain that fire and people will start to sweat at night.

  Michelle: So it's considered almost like a false heat, but it's not really heat because it's just a low yin, which is the low cooling aspect of the body. And similarly, a lot of men will start out with a lot of heat, but then they will end up losing that heat that could [00:05:00] kidney young, which is more of their general like.

  Michelle: Body's preference because it is a more male dominant energy. And when that gets lower, they tend to get colder as they age, and they'll also have to urinate more frequently because the urine is the liquid and if the fire is lower, more liquid will accumulate, and then it can also end up being more edema, which happens often as people age.

  Michelle: So in general, as people age, the yin and yang decline. Now that being said, if you are a woman that is still getting her menstrual cycle and is trying to conceive and is having night sweats, I don't want you to freak out when you're hearing about that as a kidney decline, because a lot of times we as practitioners can help that through herbs and through food.

  Michelle: Support it so it doesn't mean that the game is over.

  Michelle: So one of the biggest things that we look at really in Chinese medicine is the kidney jing. So it's [00:06:00] called the kidney jing, and it is considered essence, and it really is, if you think about sperm, that is kidney jing. And for a woman it's reserves. But more than that, really the essence of it and the quality is kidney jing.

  Michelle: And we are born with a certain amount of kidney jing that we. Inherit from our parents. So that is called pre heaven, Jing. And after we're born, we can support that jing, although we are born with that Jing. So when a woman is told that she's going to be born with all the eggs she'll ever have, that's really the Jing and that's her storage.

  Michelle: And that is something that we can support and nourish, although it's not as easy to accumulate as we age. So ultimately the quantity is something that we'll see often with a MH, but it's more important to have quality than quantity because ultimately when you have the quality, it doesn't really matter because you just need one egg, one good [00:07:00] egg, and one good sperm to make a healthy fertilized egg.

  Michelle: So one of the things that we do see with egg quality is as women age, they will lose their amount of healthy mitochondria and mitochondria are the powerhouses of cells, and normal cells have about a couple of thousand mitochondria while egg cells have hundreds of thousands of mitochondria. And that is because.

  Michelle: The energy that the egg needs in order to fertilize and to become an embryo is really, really high. And because of the fact that mitochondrial health lowers an A TP, which is energy units that are produced by the mitochondria, that also declines. That is one of the reasons why egg quality declines, and it can also impact healthy genetics in the egg as well as in the sperm.

  Michelle: So when we talk about pre heaven chi or post heaven chi or kidney chi [00:08:00] before which we're born with, and then post, what we're really talking about are two aspects of the kidney energy and essence that we have in our lives, and one is one that we're inheriting. Basically the bank account that we inherit from our parents.

  Michelle: And the other is really how we choose to live our life and are we having a healthy lifestyle? Because through eating right and doing well for our bodies, we can support healthier gene. So in that sense. We can feel a little more empowered because it's not just something that we have to rely based on genetics.

  Michelle: It is something that is also within our hands. So of course, genetics are genetics and some of the things that we inherit we can't really control. What we can't control is how we choose to live our life and we can choose to eat healthier and to manage stress a little better and to do things really actively and get into habits that are supportive of our kidney chi.

  Michelle: So [00:09:00] here are some signs that kidney chi is lower. So since kidneys are in the back, a lot of times it will manifest as lower back pain or knees that are weaker, or they tend to be a little more sensitive. And it can also manifest as ear ringing. Night sweats. Could be kidney in deficiency or water accumulation.

  Michelle: Could be kidney yang deficiency. It can also manifest as low libido, fatigue, thin or absent cervical mucus shortened cycles, delayed ovulation, especially if it's short in the follicular phase. That could be a kidney yin deficiency, or if it's short in the luteal phase, it could be a kidney young deficiency.

  Michelle: Some of the emotional aspects of it is since fear is really the emotion of the kidneys, in traditional Chinese medicine, people might have a little bit more anxiety or feel less grounded.

  Michelle: So some of the things that people should consider doing, and this is both for men and for [00:10:00] women, is prioritizing sleep. So seven to nine hours of sleep consistently as much as possible every night. Is really key because in order to really restore that essence, we need to get the rest, because when we're getting into rest, we are able to restore and also our body is able to replenish itself and replenish the fluids and really support cervical mucus and also support sperm production.

  Michelle: And this also supports the body's nervous system and also nervous system regulation. So rest is so key and it is so important and oftentimes is really a luxury. And it shouldn't be a luxury. It actually is a needed thing that all of us need in order to really support our bodies and support anti-aging 'cause ultimately egg quality.

  Michelle: Really depends on anti-aging.

  Michelle: Another thing to keep in mind is teeth. Teeth are actually an extension or expression of kidney Q. Also hair when I was talking about [00:11:00] before. So a lot of shedding can also be something that can also be impacted by kidney chi deficiency. So teeth health is really important as well. And we know that with Western medicine.

  Michelle: They see that there is a correlation now between gum health or dental health and fertility health.

  Michelle: So you also wanna have a well-balanced exercise. Not too much, not too little, so too much can really deplete your kidney chi. And too little is not gonna get the energy moving enough. So it's important to have both because good exercise, a good amount, but also generate more a TP and energy for the body.

  Michelle: So things like meditation will also conserve our energy overall and then. This is really, really important is avoid walking around barefoot on cold tile. So make sure your feet are kept warm. Now, they don't have to be hot, but just make sure to protect the bottom of your feet from getting too [00:12:00] cold. And the reason why is because.

  Michelle: Kidney one, which is the first point on the kidney channel, happens to be at the bottom of your feet. And that point can actually draw the cold into your kidney channels. So you don't want too much cold, and especially for women and also men 'cause they need their young energy as well. But for women that can get drawn into the womb and it's really important to keep the womb warm when it comes to fertility health.

  Michelle: Another thing that's important besides just keeping the feet warm, is also your back. And this is really interesting because I had a friend that was from, I. Russia and her grandmother always told her, keep your kidneys warm. And not to have, not to go outside in the cold weather with her back exposed. But they also say not to do it with your belly exposed either, because that's your womb.

  Michelle: So you wanna make sure that those areas in the body, the lower abdomen and your back are kept warm.

  Michelle: So there are also foods that [00:13:00] you can eat that nourish jing and kidney chi So when it comes to really kidney jing, there are some foods that are considered rich and kidney jing Some of those are seeds, especially black sesame seeds. So if you think about seeds, what are they? They are potential for new life.

  Michelle: They're potential for new growth. So they basically have everything that they need in order to sprout. So they have that potential in there, and then once they're activated, they're able to sprout into a new plant. So ultimately that is what egg cells do, and that is what sperm does.

  Michelle: There're seeds in a human body,

  Michelle: so black sesame seeds in particular are actually really beneficial for kidney chi, but they're also really great for building blood as well. And the same thing goes for bone broth. Bone broth also, because they're coming from bones of animals and you're cooking it for a long time. Those. Stem cells grow in bones, and so ultimately you're getting all the amino acids and the [00:14:00] collagen and lots of really, really healthy nutrients that can support fertility health overall.

  Michelle: And then goji berries, they are super important too, and they can help not only your blood, but they're also really supportive for. Kidney chi and goji berries are actually considered one of the herbs in many of the formulas for Chinese herbs that is used and then also considered black beans, kidney beans, walnuts, seaweed, and dark leafy greens.

  Michelle: And in regards to the nature of the food, it's important to have most of your food cooked. So in Chinese medicine, they really stress the importance of cooking food and making sure that it is not too cold in nature, which is what happens when we have raw food. It's very cold in nature, and that can also impact kidney gene.

  Michelle: So a couple of other things that you can do is. Do some visualizations and visualizations are really [00:15:00] impactful. There's been studies on it, and it shows that your body really does respond. Sometimes people will think about a lemon and they'll salivate even though they don't really have a lemon in their mouth.

  Michelle: Just the thought of it is causing something that's really considered involuntary, which shows that your body is really listening to your thoughts and paying attention to what you're visualizing. So you can visualize warm energy in your womb or warm energy in your kidneys, and a healthy light, and something that supports kind of like a good, healthy life-giving light that supports your ovaries as well.

  Michelle: And overall nervous system support. So this is why sleep is so important and also why meditation is so important. It's important to be able to have a good, calm, nervous system because a calm nervous system does not expend too much energy. It works more efficiently, and this is really key for anti-aging.

  Michelle: It'll also support hormonal balance and get you into a more growth state in your body, which [00:16:00] supports reproductive health.

  Michelle: And then of course, you can always talk to your doctor because I always recommend talking to your doctor before taking any supplements. But look into coq 10, which is really supportive for egg quality and

  Michelle: Omega-3 fatty acids and antioxidants such as acai. These are all really beneficial to support egg and sperm quality.

  Michelle: And lastly, I highly recommend going to an acupuncturist, working through acupuncture and Chinese herbs with a qualified practitioner because it really can benefit your kidney essence so much. I. As a matter of fact, there have been some studies that show that some of the young herbal formulas do increase mitochondrial health.

  Michelle: So that's huge because that's ultimately what you wanna target when it comes to egg and sperm quality. I.

  Michelle: So that concludes today's episode, and you can go into the episode notes and find a link to my ebook, and it is [00:17:00] called Calm With Two Ms. And in that ebook, it is a great resource on how to. Improve your vagal tone and support your nervous system regulation, and that is probably one of the most important and often missed aspects or tools that can support reproductive health.

  Michelle: So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I will see you next time.

Ep 341 The Truth About AMH and FSH: What These Numbers Actually Mean

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m breaking down the truth behind two of the most talked-about fertility hormones: AMH and FSH. Whether you're navigating IVF, trying to conceive naturally, or just beginning to explore your fertility, understanding what these numbers actually mean (and what they don’t) is essential.

In this solo episode, I share what AMH (Anti-Müllerian Hormone) and FSH (Follicle-Stimulating Hormone) reveal about your ovarian reserve, what doctors are looking for, and why these values are only one piece of the fertility puzzle. I also offer insights into how lifestyle, nutrition, and stress management can positively influence your hormonal health and egg quality.

Tune in for a science-meets-soul discussion that will empower you to move forward with more clarity, hope, and confidence on your fertility journey.


Key Takeaways: 

• AMH indicates the estimated quantity of follicles, while FSH reflects how well your ovaries respond to stimulation.

• These values don’t measure egg quality—and they certainly don’t define your fertility potential.

• Numbers like AMH and FSH are just a snapshot in time; they can change with the right support.

• Egg quality can be supported through lifestyle shifts, acupuncture, and antioxidant-rich nutrition.

• Natural conception is possible—even with “low” AMH or “high” FSH.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  FSH and AMH

  [00:00:00] So first I am going to break down what they are. What, what is a MH and what is FSH and why that matters when you're trying to conceive. So a MH stands for anti malian hormone, and this is a hormone that is produced in the granulosa cells of your follicles in your ovaries. So it is one of the things that is measured by reproductive endocrinologists to see how many.

  Eggs you have now, they can't tell you how many, but they can tell that the reserve is high the higher the A MH.

  So generally speaking, many doctors would like to see over one and. And anything under that might be considered more diminishing reserves.[00:01:00]

  Fun fact is that a MH is considered the embryonic police and it prevents males in utero from growing fallopi, from growing fallopian tubes and female reproductive organs.

  Unlike many hormones, a MH does not fluctuate throughout the cycle, so you can actually take the blood work anytime, but most of the time they will take it and measure it at the same time that you're doing FSH, which is usually day three of your cycle. Now, FSH stands for follicular stimulating hormone.[00:02:00]

  And this is a hormone that is released by your pituitary gland, and this hormone stimulates your ovaries to mature follicles.

  So typically speaking, they would like the number to be eight or lower. And the reason why FSH is preferred to be lower is because a higher FSH means that the brain has to produce a higher number in order to. Impact your ovaries in order to help the follicles grow. Now, if the follicles are not responding, or it's taking a little longer, your pituitary gland has to increase the amount of FSH, which means that your body is not as responsive, where your ovaries are not as responsive, and ultimately that is why they want it to be eight or less, because then it [00:03:00] shows that that your body is responding faster and that your ovaries are functioning optimally.

  And in men, FSH plays a key role in sperm production. So in this case, we're talking more about women because we're talking about specifically A MH and FSH and egg reserve.

  So as a recap, a MH will be measuring. The quantity of small follicles. Now, it doesn't give you an exact number, but it gives you an estimated amount based on the number [00:04:00] while FSH is showing the effectiveness of how your ovaries are functioning.

  So the reason this is such a big deal oftentimes, especially if you go to an REI, which is a reproductive endocrinologist, is because they wanna measure the amount of eggs a woman has because when they retrieve and when they give their. Medications, they are going to try to stimulate the egg quantity, so they wanna know that they have a big number to work with and then they give you certain medications and hormones to increase the follicles.

  And typically what happens in a woman's cycle is that the FSH increases, and then there's always that one follicle that will take all of it and it will be kind of the queen bee of the follicles for that month. All the other follicles will not get it, and the one will increase to the point where it matures and [00:05:00]that one follicle every month will be the one to ovulate.

  But when it comes to IVF, they increase the amount of FSH and they will inject you with that. And also work with other hormones so that what it does is it actually creates a situation in the ovaries where you get way more FS, H than you normally would, and then all of the eggs or a lot of the eggs will be able to benefit and grow.

  And this is one of the reasons why, because all of these eggs grow at the same time. It creates almost like a heaviness in the ovaries. And this is one of the reasons why when a woman is going to do a retrieval, they say, don't exercise and don't use the abdomen because they're afraid of something called an ovarian torsion.

  Um, this is a complete side note, but that's one of the reasons is because it creates more eggs and it grows more eggs than normal.[00:06:00]

  So oftentimes when it really is a cycle that can be stimulated, such as when a person goes for egg retrieval, then this is a number that is very important for doctors because they wanna make sure that a woman has enough reserves so that the cycles work properly. However, in a natural cycle, even if a woman has low A MH, and that means that she does not have a huge reserve, it still only takes one egg to fertilize.

  So if a woman has really good quality, even if it's a low number, she could still naturally conceive. This is where it gets really confusing because a lot of times women go to the REI and they get those numbers and it looks like it's a poor score, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she cannot conceive either through [00:07:00] IVF or naturally.

  So here's what a MH and FSH do not tell you. They do not tell you information about the quality of the egg. So. When it comes to equality, actually something that is very hard to measure. The only way you can really kind of see possibly is when a woman goes through IVF and they can see how the eggs grow and how they fertilize.[00:08:00]

  But they also can see how they test genetically. So if there's any issues with the. Genetics and the health of the embryos. That is one of the things that could be because of egg quality, but it can also be because of sperm quality.

  And while a MH and FSH can tell you a lot about what's going on, pregnancy, generally speaking is multifactorial. It really depends on the sperm health. It depends on also the environment and the uterus. There's so many other things that can contribute to issues getting pregnant, that it really doesn't only come down to a MH and FSH.

  As a matter of fact, I've had many patients myself who started out with really, really high FSH and very, very low A MH, and they have gone on to get pregnant [00:09:00] naturally, not just once, but multiple times.

  So just because a woman has low a MH does not mean that she cannot get pregnant. And what it really comes down to at the end of the day is really getting the quality of the eggs as high as possible so that even if it's a low number, they can, they can conceive. And another fun fact, something that I've noticed, and it was more anecdotal in my office, I have seen women with high MH and also there is a correlation to really, really high A MH, and that is something that you can find often with conditions like PCOS.[00:10:00]

  So what I was saying before is that I've had some patients that will go through a retrieval and get about 40 eggs, and then in the end, none of them, I. Up to be viable embryos. And then I've had other patients that have had only two extracted two eggs. And then from those two they fertilized and they ended up being two healthy embryos.

  So you never really know what will happen. And the bottom line is if you really wanna focus on something, my suggestion is focus on egg quality.[00:11:00]

  That being said, I also will say that I have found in my practice that after doing some work and making some changes, lifestyle changes, stress. Lowering stress, really creating an a lot more self-care and acupuncture and sometimes Chinese herbs and sometimes supplements. Depends on the person, 'cause each person is unique.

  After many months I have seen FSH going down and a MH going up. So those numbers, while it seems like a MH should not go up because it's because reserve would usually be going down. I have actually seen that number increase. So also to keep in mind that those numbers are a snapshot in time. So imagine somebody kind of following you [00:12:00] around or a camera following you around and taking snapshots at different times of the day or different times in your life.

  Say one time after you had a really stressful day, and then another time after you just got back from a vacation. How different will you look and how much of a conclusion can somebody come up with by just taking that little quick snapshot of you? And that is typically what the body is like. That is why it's important to do multiple tests and not just one time because you want a baseline, which is really the base that you're starting with.

  And then other times as well, after implementing changes to see if your body's responding.

  So couple of things that you could do. [00:13:00] Really to support yourself is stress reduction. I talk about that a lot because when you come up with tools that manage stress, then you'll be able to manage your sleep. When you manage your sleep, you're able to get into a more restorative state, and that is a state of growth.

  And ultimately, I talk a lot about getting into the parasympathetic nervous system where you're able to feel more calm because when you're in that state, your body is not using up energy. On things that it doesn't really need. Ultimately, it's able to preserve that energy for your reproductive health.

  And when it's able to do that, then you're able to think about growth and you're thinking about egg quality and egg growth, and also energy, because that is actually key. And this is going to dive into the next point that I wanna mention is that. One of the things that is really important for egg quality, and one of the ways that we can look at it is that a TP, [00:14:00] which is the energy unit that is produced by the mitochondria in the cells, ultimately over time, gets lower as we age, and as that.

  Number gets lower, then the quality gets lower. So you want a lot of energy. Think about it. When you don't have a lot of energy, you can't function. So it's really important that the cells have a lot of energy and that the mitochondria is protected. And typically what happens as we get older is oxidation and oxidative stress increases in the body.

  So what do we do to counter that? And that oxidative stress, by the way, is what causes the DNA in mitochondria, which are the powerhouses of your cell. And fun fact, your egg cells have hundreds of thousands of mitochondria, whereas a normal cell is a couple of thousand. So this is just an example of why it is so important for the mitochondria to be healthy.[00:15:00]

  There's a reason why egg cells have so many. Have such a huge number of mitochondria. It's because it's necessary and needs to be there, and this is why a TP is so important because it takes a lot of energy to reproduce and for eggs to fertilize and become a human.

  So the first thing you wanna do is really counter any kind of oxidative stress, and one of the things that you can do is have something called antioxidants, and that is where the name came from. It basically counteracts the effect of oxidative stress, and you will find antioxidants in supplements and in food.

  But you can also find it in the sun. Yes. In the morning when you get sunlight, it actually increases melatonin, but it's not used in the same way as when it [00:16:00] is in your bloodstream at night, or if you're taking it as a supplement to go to sleep. It's actually called cellular melatonin, and it is the melatonin that is in your cells, and you can get that from sunlight also.

  My suggestion is of course, do it in the morning because that is the best time to get the sunlight, and that is also a time where the sun is less dangerous and there's less UV rays.

  Another thing that the sun can give us is vitamin D, and while vitamin D is a hormone, it actually exhibits antioxidant properties.

  And then as far as food and supplements, some of the supplements, and I do wanna mention, do [00:17:00] not take any supplements without talking to your doctor first. But here are a few supplements that you can ask your doctor about and one of them being really, the top one is coq 10 or Ubiquinol. Um, there's Ubiquinone, so it comes in two forms and ubiquinol with an L is the more superior form.

  That is something that a lot of people take when they want to support their egg quality. Another thing that you can consider is resveratrol, and that is another really amazing antioxidant that can also support equality.

  And then you could think about the [00:18:00] very common vitamin C, vitamin E, and those are usually in a good prenatal, but sometimes you might have to supplement a little extra. And glutathione. Um, supporting glutathione is incredibly important. Now, glutathione is a very strong master antioxidant that is produced by the body, and it is actually a very hard thing to take 'cause the body just doesn't just take it, it produces it.

  So N-Acetylcysteine is another supplement that you can take, and it's called NAC. You'll see that typically written down in the bottles. That is the precursor to glutathione, so it helps your body produce glutathione, so that is an amazing, amazing supplement to take as well.

  And then as far as foods go, you want to consider, um, lots of dark leafy greens and also berries. [00:19:00] And that dark color that you'll see in blackberries that is from antioxidants. So it's really important to have lots of those natural occurring antioxidants.

  In foods and fruits because that will support your egg quality.

  And fun fact, dark chocolate when it's not processed and unhealthy is very high in antioxidants as well.

  And matcha green tea is also very high in antioxidants.[00:20:00]

  And lastly, you also would benefit from lowering inflammation, so working on gut health as well, because inflammation can impact the quality of your eggs. One of the things that I say is the most. Simple thing that you can do. And if you can do that every day, it would be amazing is grounding your feet on the earth, having some earth time where your feet are touching the earth.

  And if you can't have that, you can look into buying a grounding mat. And I always say this because this is one of the things that I think about is the only time you don't wanna use a grounding mat is if it's lightning outside. And you also wanna make sure that whatever grounding mat you buy comes with a tester to use on your outlets to make sure that it's safe to use.

  So that concludes today's episode.[00:21:00]

  And really the bottom line is, is that those numbers, while they're important and they give you a lot of information, they are a snapshot in time. They can definitely change and they do not define your fertility journey. As long as you are getting your period and you are ovulating, you always have a chance to conceive.

  And the true factor, really the big thing is you want to get the quality high. And if you think about quality, ultimately it's the eggs. But if you live a quality life, that is, you take care of yourself, you live stress free. You decrease the amount of stress or at least give yourself tools on how to handle stress

  and you eat to nourish your [00:22:00] body and really, really,

  and go to acupuncture. Of course I am biased, then that will help egg quality as well. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I will see you next time. I'll say this for the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

Ep 340 A Functional Approach to PCOS, Autoimmunity, and Hormonal Healing with Hannah Davis

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Hannah Davis (@rooted.with.hannah), a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher who specialises in women’s health, hormones, and autoimmune conditions. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s while navigating early motherhood, Hannah shifted her clinical nutrition practice to focus on uncovering the deeper root causes of symptoms like fatigue, cycle irregularities, and PCOS.

We dive into how nervous system dysregulation often underlies hormonal imbalances and why functional testing, mineral status, and emotional safety are crucial for true healing. From decoding PCOS types to understanding thyroid antibodies and the connection between trauma and calcium retention, Hannah offers a deeply integrative and compassionate lens for supporting women on their fertility and healing journeys.

This conversation is packed with practical tools and fresh insights—don’t miss it!


Key Takeaways: 

• PCOS is not just about ovarian cysts—it's a metabolic and inflammatory condition with many root causes.

• Nervous system regulation is foundational for hormone balance, digestion, and fertility.

• Functional lab testing (like Dutch and HTMA) reveals hidden patterns traditional labs may miss.

• Excess calcium in tissues may indicate trauma or over-supplementation with Vitamin D.

• Diet, stress, sleep, and gut health all influence autoimmune and hormonal symptoms.

Guest Bio:
Hannah Davis, RD (@rooted.with.hannah) is a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher with advanced training in functional nutrition, lab testing, and spiritual psychology. She specialises in supporting women with hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto’s, and chronic fatigue through an integrative approach that blends clinical science with deep nourishment and nervous system healing.

After navigating her own health challenges postpartum, Hannah now helps women reclaim their energy, resilience, and sense of safety through 1:1 coaching and group programs at Pivot Nutrition Coaching. She’s especially passionate about working with mothers, self-healers, and cycle-breakers who are ready to feel like themselves again.

Links and Resources:

• Follow Hannah on Instagram

• Visit the Pivot Nutrition Coaching website

• Book Mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # VIDEO-Hannah-Davis

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Hannah.

  Hannah: thanks for having me.

  Michelle: So I'm very excited to have you on. We're gonna be talking about a lot of really cool topics, but before we get started, I always like to start out with kind of like an origin story and learn how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Hannah: Yeah. I am a registered dietician. I've been mainly practicing medical nutrition therapy for the last 10 years in a more clinical setting. And you know, and then I became a mom. I have two. One's almost eight, you gotta say almost eight. And the other one's, and the other one's nine. So they're really, they're really young and I, you know, working at the hospital part-time and I started noticing.

  Hannah: My own symptoms of, of things that just felt like off. And simultaneously [00:01:00] I was also becoming more interested in learning about more integrative functional nutrition. And so that really led me down. It, it started off as, oh. A way for me to kind of figure out what was going on with me, because of course, like so many of my, the clients I work with now you know, you go to the doctors, you ask for some labs to be done and they just say, oh, you're absolutely fine.

  Hannah: You might just be stressed. You're stressed out, you're a young mom. Of course it's normal to feel exhausted all of the time and stuff like that. So, I just was like really interested in doing more digging and so I, we got some training in advanced lab testing and more like integrative functional nutrition.

  Hannah: And so. From there I was able to figure out what's going on with me, and I, I actually have an autoimmune condition. It's called Hashimotos. And so that really affects, you know, your, your [00:02:00] energy levels, your, your gut health, your immune system obviously is involved. So I, it was so incredibly validating and it really excited me.

  Hannah: I was like, I feel. If I can figure out a way to use advanced lab testing and combine that with my. More of my more clinical, you know, expertise and combine that together to really like, help women feel empowered about how to support their health and, and how they feel and their showing up in their lives every day.

  Hannah: And so it just really, really excited me. So that's kind of what got me started with that. And then I, I pivoted towards, towards that about three years ago started my own virtual practice working more in like the women's health space. So like hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions.

  Hannah: And then I, as I was doing more of that work, I was like, okay, [00:03:00] there's. I'm seeing a common theme here. These women at their root, cause a lot of the time is nervous system dysregulation. And I got really. Tired of just saying over and over again. You know, you need to manage your stress a little bit better.

  Hannah: I wanted to be able to give them so much more than that. And obviously I knew that from my own journey. I really had to integrate that. And so, but I wanted to like, figure out how to help my, my clients integrate that. So then I became a certified meditation teacher. And spent a year studying spiritual psychology, which is like a blend of Eastern ritual and practices with western psychology.

  Hannah: That, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I really like to supplement my, programs with giving my clients tools on how to regulate their nervous systems as well. [00:04:00] And so, we'll, you know, you know, it's more of like life coaching almost. And then maybe we'll integrate some, some things like, meditation or breath work together.

  Hannah: It really just depends on what the, how the client wants to be supported. So

  Michelle: Awesome.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: You know it's interesting 'cause I

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: an episode on. Nervous system. Really the vagal tone and

  Hannah: Yes.

  Michelle: there's a link with a weaker vagal tone and things like endometriosis or

  Michelle: PCOS, and I thought that was just fascinating.

  Michelle: So, yeah, I'd love to really kind of dig deep on all of these things. So just for people listening and they're kind of like hearing nervous system for the first time. 'cause well maybe they've listened to my podcast, maybe not when I talked about the nervous system. But what should people, like, explain the nervous system, explain how the nervous system ties into certain [00:05:00] conditions.

  Hannah: I mean, that's a very, like, that's pretty broad because it's like, you know, it really depends on what.

  Michelle: the nervous system like tie into certain conditions?

  Hannah: I don't know what condition it doesn't, honestly. Uh, the more, the more I get like deep in the weeds with this, so, you know, a lot of my clients we, you know, so I am typically working with people with autoimmune conditions and hormone. I balances gut health, that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I would say the nervous system impacts all of those areas because ideally, especially when we're talking about women's health and like hormones, things like that we really just want to create safety in the body, right?

  Hannah: So that we can. Manufacture hormones and ovulate naturally and things like that. So, and then, you know, inflammation's another, another piece of that. It really just, it's a great way to, [00:06:00] like, it just connects to everything right.

  Michelle: Yeah, well the vagus nerve is incredibly important when it comes to gut health. the stronger the vagal tone, the better the vagus nerve, the better. It's able to lower inflammation in the body.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: fascinating and interesting. And so what are some of the things that you do suggest for people. they wanna regulate their nervous system and support that aspect.

  Hannah: So First of all, I think it's important to just figure out what are the systems for that client? What are the systems that are working for them and what's not? And really get really honest about that. And then, you know, it could be something like starting a.

  Hannah: Very doable meditation practice or some breath work like before, before meals, right? Getting into rest and digest me activating that vagus nerve so that we [00:07:00] can digest our food properly. So it really just depends on what is feels a lot most aligned for the client and, and is doable for them. But also I think another big piece of this, which is not really talked about often is eating for blood sugar balance.

  Hannah: Because even like blood sugar swings throughout the day can cause fluctuations in your mood and your anxiety and cravings and all, all of, and even inflammation as well. So

  Michelle: that

  Hannah: like a whole body approach. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: It's such a good point. And I remember like looking into this and researching like just really the gut brain connection and. And it's interesting 'cause you can see it really go both ways. So if you have imbalanced gut microbiome that can ima impact your brain and your mood and your state and your emotions.

  Michelle: And it actually is linked with certain [00:08:00] emotional um, imbalances or like mental disorders. It's really fascinating. And then they found. On the flip side that people who meditated for many years, like Tibetan monks, they had a really vast microbiome that was a lot more enriched and had a lot more diversity.

  Michelle: So it's really fascinating how you really can literally get it at both ends or either end.

  Hannah: yeah. Like I tell my clients all the time, if you're breathing into your shoulders, the majority of the time it's gonna signal, or that's gonna signal to the brain that you're in fight or flight. So it's gonna send all the blood to your extremities. It's not gonna be sending the blood to, you know, your, your GI track and your, you know, your organs there.

  Hannah: And so. it's gonna be a lot harder to digest your foods, whereas if you are really taking these deep breaths into your belly, it's sending all the blood there. And that's, [00:09:00] that's a, and I mean, I often get skipped, you know, people are just like, no, just gimme a, just gimme a meal plan. I wanna feel better.

  Hannah: I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, you know, but it's like, you really gotta think about not just what you're eating, but how you're eating, like what your nervous system state is. You know, when you're, when you're eating food.

  Michelle: That's so true. It's

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: true. And it was funny 'cause I was reading about that and it was one of the things to do is just stand. This is why they say like, don't drive and eat at the same time. Because when you're driving naturally, you're gonna be in a little bit more of a fight or flight or kind of ready for anything and. Also just to kind of throw it out there, it's not bad to be in that state, in that sympathetic state. It's part of life. It's just that sometimes you need that and then sometimes you need the other. But what you're saying is so true, like it's actually like becoming mindful of getting yourself into that state and maybe

  Michelle: doing those exercises to get yourself in more parasympathetic state, which is more of

  Michelle: the rest and digest, so that you're priming your [00:10:00] body when you do eat. To digest better. So I think

  Hannah: Yeah. Of course, and, you know, if you're digesting better, you're absorbing nutrients better, which is gonna impact your energy levels, your mood, your hormones, everything. So yeah, there really, I feel like the more I get into it, the, more I see that there really isn't an aspect of our health, our med, our metabolic health, everything that is not touched by, your nervous system.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's really fascinating. I like, the more I dig into this, the more I'm just like so amazed at how Willy, you know, it's the nervous system is kind of like this wiring of like. Information.

  Michelle: It's almost like information that kind of signals to your body, all kinds of different states, but especially that safety.

  Michelle: I agree with you. You know, when you, when you feel safe, you can be more creative. And what does that mean really in the body fertility and it also regeneration growth.

  Michelle: So yeah, it's pretty cool,

  Hannah: [00:11:00] Yeah. And I mean, hormones, that's how hormones work too. They're just chemical messengers in your body.

  Michelle: right? and so talk about PCOS, 'cause I know that you work with P-C-O-S-A lot just to cover. 'cause I think of people don't really understand it fully because it is you know, there's so many different types of PCOS and people get confused and sometimes people show PCOS symptoms, but then some doctors, and we don't know if they're just not like looking. Thoroughly into it. Dismiss it. Oh, that's not PCOS. So

  Hannah: Right.

  Michelle: that and just kind of,

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: it is,

  Hannah: Okay, well, we'll just start what, like, so what is PCOS? So PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome. So a lot of people get confused by that right off the bat. They think, oh, so that mean I have cysts on my ovaries. Does that mean that I have it? So it's actually not a physical ovarian condition, [00:12:00] like of the presence of cyst, but it's rather a hormonal condition and it's a, what I like to call a spectrum condition.

  Hannah: You know, 'cause there's different varieties and there's different root causes. It's important to understand, first of all what kind of PCOS you have and what the root causes are which is why we, we use functional lab testing in practice. But but yeah, I think a lot of women often it's like a long confusing road full of mixed messages of like just lose weight advice,

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Hannah: you know.

  Michelle: really thin. PCOS patients, so that's where it can get so confusing for

  Hannah: Right, right, right. And so, A-P-C-O-S isn't in an ovarian condition, you know, what exactly is going on? I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically, blood sugar issues plus inflammation, plus genetic susceptibility, which is going to lead [00:13:00] to the ovaries to begin to produce large amounts of androgens.

  Hannah: So, you know, and I say genetic susceptibility because, you know, just because you have like insulin sensi or insulin resistance or diabetes, that doesn't mean you automatically are gonna get PCOS. Some people just have really sensitive ovaries right. And so they're, they're going to develop the, the condition, so I like to talk to my clients about well first of all, we start by running some tests to find out, you know, what what their root causes are. And then we're gonna really go deep with, you know, working on the blood sugar issues with the inflammation, real food strategies lifestyle interventions, things like that.

  Michelle: One of the things that I find is pretty common just in my own practice, is that.

  Michelle: there's a huge link of gut [00:14:00] imbalance

  Michelle: or, you know, gut microbiome

  Michelle: imbalance and inflammation, you know, that is part of the contributor to the inflammation and can really impact PCOS conditions.

  Hannah: Yeah. Because you know, if we, if that inflammation in the gut is going unchecked you know, that's also gonna drive that insulin resistance even more.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Michelle: what are some of the tests that you do for PCOS? Functional

  Hannah: Well, yeah. Well, first of all, I, I like to start with a Dutch test. It's a, have you heard of Dutch? The Uhhuh? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. So I would run a Dutch you know, so that we,

  Michelle: out just for people

  Hannah: yeah. Yes,

  Michelle: I've never heard of it before. So it's dried urine testing for comprehensive, or I forget

  Hannah: it's a Dr. It's a. Yeah, yeah. Dried urine test for comprehensive hormones. I know I used to think, oh, it's [00:15:00] of Dutch, like it's from the Dutch, like, you know, but it's just an abbreviation.

  Michelle: right, right.

  Hannah: But yes, it's a very unique way to look at hormones. 'cause traditionally before this test was available, you would have to rely on blood work for hormones.

  Hannah: And, you know, saliva for cortisol, which is okay, but it's just not great. So this test really helps us get a lot more specific, a lot more personalized, and helps us get some answers that would probably. Be left unanswered if we were just, you know, looking at, at blood work alone. So, you know, it's gonna tell us, you know, give us a snapshot of all three sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone.

  Hannah: It's gonna show us how they're being metabolized in the liver. And then what I really like is it looks at your cortisol awakening response. So someone is struggling with sleep, mood, energy levels. Things like that that could also be driving your symptoms and, and your inflammation as well. So I, mm-hmm.

  Michelle: cortisol is your friend in the morning. [00:16:00]

  Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I like that it also has that organic acid test at the end there, which some of those other markers are gonna be important for looking at, for hormone production. So it's nice if they include that. So I, I like to do a Dutch, I also like to do HTMA testing, which stands for hair tissue mineral analysis.

  Hannah: Because, you know, you know, when we're looking at hormones it's, you know, we, we also wanna be, look thinking about minerals too because and not just like, our minerals through blood work, but more on a cellular level. Like what is the body doing with those minerals? And how is your body utilizing them?

  Hannah: Are they even getting up into the cell? So, and we can, you know, you know, minerals, they impact hormones, which means they're gonna impact PCOS. So I like that one too. And it's like a little, it's a, it's a nice way to, I like it 'cause it's, it shows your body's like, it's like a blueprint. It [00:17:00] shows you your stress pattern.

  Hannah: know how your body is using minerals after you've maybe gone through a season of. Really high stress and you know, the fertility journey too is so stressful on its own that I'm like, yeah, let's look at what your body does with all this stress and how we can really like, you know, deeply nourish your body and, you know, make it feel safe for ovulation.

  Michelle: Yeah, I know that there's a lot of minerals that you can't really test in blood and for example, magnesium. That's a

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: one to test for. So does this test for magnesium as well, like all minerals or,

  Hannah: yeah, yeah. It looks at all of the minerals. Specifically the ones that I'm gonna be focusing on. The minerals that impact PCS would be magnesium, zinc, calcium, iron selenium iodine. So, you know, and in a nutshell, you know, these, these minerals. they can exacerbate insulin resistance, hormonal imbalances, oxidative stress, which is [00:18:00] important for like egg quality, sperm quality, things like that.

  Hannah: So women, get your men to your partner.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Michelle: So, so this is a hair test.

  Hannah: yeah, it's a hair. They're using just like a teaspoon amount of your hair to analyze the mineral content in your tissues.

  Michelle: Fascinating. I know they've done those for like heavy metals and, and just testing the

  Hannah: Yeah, yeah,

  Michelle: I haven't heard of the mineral testing yet.

  Hannah: yeah. And this, yeah. And this test does include heavy metals and we look at, mm-hmm.

  Michelle: heavy metals. Oh, okay.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: it's really high. Just like for people that don't have symptoms sometimes I almost feel like it's like high for everybody.

  Hannah: The heavy metals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and

  Michelle: somebody who's not, who doesn't have like,

  Hannah: yeah, and I mean, we we're exposed to heavy metals all of the time. It's, you know, it's, there's, it's kind of impossible [00:19:00] to get around it, you know? It's in our food, our water, the soil, you know. And so my approach is, you know, we might see like an acute.

  Hannah: Exposure to the heavy metals. But what we wanna see is that you, you're able to detox and excrete those heavy metals safely. You know, that's why, you know, we have our detox organs, our liver, right? And so if I ever see those metals like pushing into the tissues, it's just a really good indication that, hey, your liver needs some.

  Hannah: Some attention, like we need to work on supporting that. And also working on not just our detoxification organs, but our drainage pathways. So like our lymphatic system you know, making sure we're having daily bowel movements that we're sweating all of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Michelle: for sure. I think that that's key is really detoxifying, and I think that it, you had a good point. You mentioned the word safely because

  Michelle: that can be an issue, like if you detoxify too [00:20:00] harshly. I'm really big on that, especially when you're trying to conceive and you're actively trying, you definitely don't wanna do something that's so strong that it actually circulates more toxins in your bloodstream.

  Hannah: That's right. Yeah.

  Michelle: So they have like binders, right? Or things

  Hannah: Yeah, That is one approach for me. I rarely will do like a heavy metal detox with somebody. I will just wanna work with them on, you know, first the foundational things of, are we optimizing the gut health, the, you know, the liver function are we getting those drainage pathways open?

  Hannah: Because your body should be able to do all that on its own if it's, you know, optimal. but I mean, if someone's already doing like a gut protocol or something with me, then yeah, they, they'll be taking like those types of supplements and then it'll, it'll still act on the heavy metals and things like that, as.

  Michelle: Interesting. So, what are some of the nutrient and lifestyle interventions specifically that you would do for PCOS? Or have you seen, because I, [00:21:00] I do know that

  Hannah: yeah.

  Michelle: different types, so that could

  Hannah: Yes.

  Michelle: the type,

  Hannah: Yes. Yeah.

  Michelle: the things that people should kind of like look out for, think about?

  Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is, is gonna be improving the quality of your food choices. So, you know, removing inflammatory oils, added sugars a lot of like processed, like ultra processed carbohydrates and, you know, with chemical and artificial additives. Things like that, you wanna replace them with whole real foods.

  Hannah: It's really that simple.

  Michelle: Yeah. I know,

  Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And then also, you know, the goal is to eat a sufficient amount of carbohydrates to promote ovulation, but while still focusing on those whole real. Food sources, like starchy veggies fruits and then unprocessed whole grains and legumes.

  Michelle: So really from natural sources, [00:22:00]

  Michelle: complex car carbs. So it's not like simple carbs, not white, you know, avoid those like.

  Hannah: Yeah. Right. So you, and you would want to make sure you're getting adequate amount of carbohydrates, but you know, if we're also dealing with insulin resistance, then we also need to be talking about you know, maintaining adequate calorie intake and just aiming for. Balance across all the macronutrients.

  Hannah: So, you know, we're pairing those carbohydrates with good quality sources of protein and healthy fats. And, if you're eating a more whole food carbs diet like. Your carbs are coming from fruits like, and like root vegetables and things like that, then those foods are naturally gonna have more fiber in them, which is also gonna help with things like insulin resistance.

  Hannah: And then I would also be focusing on gut nourishing foods, like, bone broth probiotics from fermented foods, cultured. Products. And then lots of prebiotic fibers. So it also just making sure you're eating a [00:23:00] wide range of, plant fibers. Like we're not just eating the same, spinach every day.

  Hannah: You know, let's really mix that up. Maybe like arugula, kale, you know. So that would be the where, where I would start with foods strategies. And then for lifestyle I would be really focusing on exercise. This is a really crucial tool in repairing insulin sensitivity and managing blood sugar levels.

  Hannah: So first I would just focus on increasing your daily movement. So, you know, maybe try tracking your steps. And then maybe you would wanna consider adding in some resistance training and some short hit style workouts. Since those really show the most metabolic improvements. In general I would avoid, I would avoid like, really long duration cardio on a regular baseball basis, since that's like very stressful on the body.

  Hannah: So exercise is number one. Stress management is key. I know we've already kind of touched on that a little bit. [00:24:00] You know, that's a big piece of hormonal. Balance balance since the, your adrenal health, you know, has the ability to impact the function of your sex hormones. I would just evaluate the sources of your stress.

  Hannah: You know, I like to think of it like a bucket, like a stress bucket, and we have all these different inputs pouring in. Some of those things we can't really remove, but some things we can, you can control your nutrition and your sleep quality. You know, you can maybe work on energetic boundaries, right?

  Hannah: Maybe you wanna include things like meditation or journaling, acupuncture, right? Those are all really nice ways to support yourself. And then sleep. Sleep is also like so major. That's when you know when you're, you can get good quality sleep at night. That's when your, your body's repairing tissue.

  Hannah: And it, it has a lot to do with your hormones, like in like your like your hunger hormones, those ones and then also like [00:25:00] cortisol, melatonin, things like that. Everything that just keeps all of the systems working together smoothly. So, yep. Do you.

  Michelle: of sleep. There's a, there like a lot of times we'll increase sugar cravings 'cause you want that quick energy. So

  Hannah: Yes,

  Michelle: that's one example of how that can impact

  Hannah: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like one poor night of sleep, it increases your hunger hormone levels pretty significantly. So we'll see that that issue popping up time and time again. Yeah, so.

  Michelle: yeah. And I also have heard, in some

  Michelle: of like go, literally pivot into autoimmune and how [00:26:00] you can address that in the case of Hashimoto's?

  Michelle: 'cause it is so prevalent and a lot of people have it. The first thing that I say is, cut out gluten, corn, and dairy and soy if you can. Now, I always say if you can't do all of them, at least cut out the gluten entirely and talk to us about like what you've done and what you've found to be helpful.

  Michelle: 'cause it is something that if you catch early, you really can sh shift a lot just from diet alone.

  Hannah: Oh, yes. Yeah, and I've helped. Hundreds of women with that. Exactly. Just you know, we see, I've seen different stages of, Hashimoto's. You know, so if it's like, you know, stage one where we're seeing the presence of antibodies and maybe they have symptoms, maybe they don't. A lot of those women typically will present with like subclinical hypothyroidism.

  Hannah: So like their thyroid labs look fine. But they're like, I, feel tired all the time. I'm constipated. [00:27:00] I can't lose weight, you know? So the first thing I would start with is kinda getting ahead of things with, 'cause the majority of your immune system is in your gut. So I would be doing a GI would run a stool sample, a GI map and see what's going on there.

  Hannah: Because there's different things that could be driving. That immune response. Yeah. It could be coming from things in the diet like gluten. And that test certainly will show us if you're having an immune response to gluten. So in those cases, I would have those clients cut, cut that out. And some people they, they don't, they don't run the test and they cut out gluten, but they just feel better without it.

  Michelle: See that a lot.

  Hannah: mm-hmm. I do too. Just kind of anecdotally. I was just gonna say that I think it is because of like, what, what they're spraying on our crops.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Hannah: Yep. know that it can impact hormones like big time, that's

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: one for sure.

  Hannah: Yeah. So, and then, you know, obviously if there's [00:28:00] a inflammation or like leaky gut.

  Hannah: You know, we're gonna wanna address that anyway because that could be driving that immune response and making your symptoms worse, making the antibodies levels worse, right? So I really wanna just get ahead of it with the gut number one.

  Hannah: And then I like to do mineral testing as well, since so many minerals, not only impact PCOS, but they impact your thyroid.

  Michelle: That's a huge

  Hannah: Yes, selenium. This is a common thing that I see. I'll see really high amounts of calcium in the tissues. And that's gonna block your thyroid hormone from getting up into the cell.

  Hannah: So like maybe their thyroid panel looks great, but that, or they're already taking a thyroid medication, but they're, they feel like it's not doing anything for them. I'm like, look, you have a lot of calcium in your tissues. And so like, that's your thyroid hormone's not even getting up into the cell. So of course you wouldn't feel an impact [00:29:00] there.

  Hannah: And that also is.

  Michelle: actually? What causes that? Calcification?

  Hannah: So, I typically see that from over supplementing with vitamin D. So, that will pull the calcium out of the bone and teeth. And put it into the tissues. Yeah. A lot of people get put on vitamin D by their doctor, like maybe they had low levels at one point, and then their doctor never talked to them about weaning off of the vitamin D.

  Hannah: They just kept taking it.

  Michelle: too high. Yeah.

  Hannah: Yeah. Or they'll start them off like a really high dose, like I've seen like 50,000 units of, of vitamin. Yeah. And they, and they just keep taking it like, then they're never told like, Hey, you're actually supposed to tapered off of that after a couple months. I've also seen an influx of people on vitamin D, zinc you know, ever since the pandemic.

  Hannah: So they just kept taking it and they don't know how that's impacted their. Mine. So, so yeah, that's one culprit. I, I'll see. The other thing that I notice, and this [00:30:00] is pretty prevalent in the autoimmune community is, and I don't think it's talked about a lot, is significant trauma and certain types of trauma.

  Hannah: It, it's like we call when we see this pattern on an htm. It, we call it a calcium shell where the calcium and the magnesium levels are really high in the tissues. And then we are like really depleted in things like potassium and sodium and other secondary minerals. And it's kind of like the body's way of shielding itself from feeling big, like feeling really big emotions.

  Hannah: So like a lot of these clients, I, I'll talk to them about this and they have such a flat effect, like with the then we start moving the calcium out of the tissues and then they become, they're, it's like they really need more emotional support throughout that process. It's very interesting. [00:31:00] I'm about to actually do an HTMA on myself.

  Hannah: It's been a couple of years, but I've just gone, I'm grieving my mom right now and I, yeah, and it's just been a really rough couple of months. I've just been just going through the motions and kind of in that, like taking care of her, taking care of my girls. Like just everything that we've gone through leading up to this point.

  Hannah: And I'm like, I am so curious to know what's going on with my minerals right now. I would not be surprised if I was having calcium going into my tissues. 'cause I believe that's what was my pattern last time I ran the test a few years ago. So.

  Michelle: Oh, that's interesting.

  Hannah: It's like, yeah, this is my, my unique pattern, you know, so I see that a lot with Hashimoto's and yeah, and, and it's interesting because that pattern, like the high calcium in the tissues and the low potassium, that's really really common with like thyroid stuff in general because, you know, first of all, that [00:32:00] calcium's blocking the thyroid.

  Hannah: Hormone from getting up into the cell. It's also gonna be blocking insulin signaling. So there is gonna be a lot of blood sugar swings, and that's gonna be driving the inflammation, making that worse. And then the low potassium, well, you know, potassium is needed for thyroid function as well. So, I see that pattern a lot with that population and it's so fascinating.

  Hannah: And I would just say like, I wouldn't say it's like. It's more like anecdotal, right? Like and you probably see that too in your practice. Yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle: For different things, not this specifically, but Yeah.

  Michelle: I mean, you see a lot of that and that's, that matters just because studies are very expensive to have and you can't

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: rely just on studies. You have to really rely on data in general, like your own experience

  Hannah: Oh, absolutely.

  Michelle: there's so much information that you can get just from that. And then, couple of things. One of the things is, I know that Zyme has been shown to really [00:33:00] help, it's an enzyme, it's a pro oleic enzymes that break apart, like fibrous tissue. So I'm curious to

  Hannah: Oh

  Michelle: if it would help with excess calcium or, you know, deposits because it, it works to break down

  Hannah: yeah,

  Michelle: really needed in the body.

  Hannah: yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle: up.

  Hannah: Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, because when we see, usually the calcium in the tissues is also associated with things like restless leg syndrome, kidney stones, gallstones, all that stuff, you know, because it's just calcification of the tissues. Right. What I do is I'll get, if that person is, has actually been on vitamin D what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's just pause on the vitamin D and then I'll get them on, a form of vitamin K two that will target that calcium in the tissues and, and bring it, redirect it back to the bones. So we'll do that for several months. And if that person's still concerned about their, their vitamin D [00:34:00] levels and say, let's just get that checked, you know, and depending on where you're at with that, you, you either, you know, probably need supplementation time from time to time, or maybe just during the winter, right?

  Hannah: But it's not a long term. You know, supplement for you because of this pattern, this pattern that you typically have.

  Michelle: Another thing that I was gonna mention is, we were talking about like, antibodies.

  Michelle: I remember, One of my patients mentioning she had like a, 'cause I was talking to an REI and I was gonna have him, I had him on the podcast and so she had some questions and she had a very low amount of antibodies that are considered normal. And he said no, because the presence of any antibody, and that's what's crazy to me.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: normal in labs

  Hannah: Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. The reference ranges for conventional labs or like in more like conventional healthcare settings. They're not, they're designed to show like if you [00:35:00] have a chronic disease or not. Not necessarily if you're optimal. Right. Like thriving, you know?

  Michelle: have any, even if it's like minute, it means that there's an autoimmune, like

  Hannah: Right. And.

  Michelle: your thyroid.

  Hannah: Yeah, and I mean, my first thought is like, and just because I've worked in that arena for so long, is I think it's just because they need to have a diagnose, a diagnosis for a chronic disease, number one, so that they can build insurance and blah, blah, blah.

  Michelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Hannah: So they typically can't treat you. They can't, they technically can't treat you.

  Hannah: Like they don't really run on a, it's more of like a sick care model. It's not really, they can't really treat you for like prevention. Right. That's not like that that's not how insurance companies work. So, I think that that's, that's my theory on that. But, you know, but to, to answer your question, yes, I, I see, low levels that aren't considered Hashimoto's,

  Michelle: Right?

  Hannah: but I [00:36:00] would label that early stages or stage one, and I would say, let's work, let's, let's order GI Map.

  Hannah: Let's look at what your minerals are doing like that impact your thyroid. Let's just, just start helping you feel better right away so that we can go into remission. I would much rather my client like, just go ahead and work on those things instead of waiting until it's like, you know, now we're seeing tissue damage, you know, and there's a lot of practices.

  Hannah: I don't,

  Michelle: it if it's early enough, like, but if it's

  Hannah: yeah.

  Michelle: really like far gone,

  Hannah: Yeah. It can, and I don't know if you've run across this a lot in your practice or with your clients, but I've been told a lot of times that they weren't even able to request or see a specialist or an endocrinologist, I guess, until they were able to see tissue damage. And it's like, wouldn't you wanna just prevent the tissue damage?

  Michelle: crazy to me. Yeah.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I just like to get on it like right away, [00:37:00] even if it's like, you know, your antibodies are like five, you know?

  Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really low, but still,

  Hannah: Yeah. Really low. Yeah. It's worth working on. Yeah.

  Michelle: I had actually just recently, I had a case where her TSH was like five and she's young, she's in her twenties. And I'm

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: not normal.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: just a little abnormal.

  Michelle: But that's not a little abnormal for try somebody trying to conceive.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: and under. So if you

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: the thing. If you go to a general doctor or even an ob, they are a little more general in women's health.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: they're not going to look at it the same way as an REI is gonna look at it, which is a reproductive endocrinologist and they're gonna

  Hannah: Right.

  Michelle: it a completely different perspective.

  Michelle: Yeah, so it's, so those things I think a lot of people just don't realize and they're going in and they get the wrong information or they don't get like the full information and many years go by and it's kind of like, you know, that's why it's so important to really get ahead of it.[00:38:00]

  Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're worthy of feeling better, you know, if, does it have to be something that's chronic or.

  Michelle: Right.

  Hannah: Like full on disease state before just feeling better.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So for people who, you know, are curious and wanna learn more about what you do,

  Michelle: um, what are some of the things that you offer online? Where can people find you? I.

  Hannah: So for people who are wanting to work one-on-one with me or maybe just start off with a consultation or some have some labs done you can find me at through Pivot Nutrition Coaching. So the website is pivot nutrition coaching com. And then if, for my social media, I'm on Instagram with Hannah.

  Michelle: Awesome. I'll have all the notes anyway. If anybody like is curious or wants to know exactly [00:39:00] how it's written out or find the link, you can find those on the episode notes. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a great conversation. I love really digging deep on just what goes on with these conditions that so many people hear about that are trying to conceive, but they don't really understand it.

  Michelle: And I think. There's so much power and knowledge and understanding and kind of like going beneath the surface. So I think this is one of the things that I like to do on the show is really to educate people on like really what's going on. So you've really shared some great, valuable information, so thank you so much, Hannah.

  Hannah: Thank you so much for having me and I, I think that this is such an important, important conversation to have and a valuable platform, so it's really an honor to be here. And hope we can chat again soon.

  Michelle: Thank you.

  [00:40:00]

Ep 339 Breathing to Conceive? It Sounds Crazy… Until You Try It

On today’s solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into the ancient practice of Pranayama, also known as yogic breathwork, and its profound impact on fertility. Breathwork may sound simple, or even unrelated to fertility, but the connection between your breath, nervous system, and reproductive health is incredibly powerful.

In this episode, I explain how specific breathing techniques can shift your body from a state of stress into one of rest and regeneration, promoting hormone balance, improved digestion, and pelvic blood flow all critical components of a healthy fertility journey. You’ll learn practical ways to integrate ancient breathing practices like Nadi Shodhana (alternate nostril breathing), Kapalabhati (breath of fire), Bhastrika (bellows breath), Bhramari (humming bee breath), and Ujjayi breathing into your daily routine.

If you’re feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or simply curious about new tools to support your body naturally, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways: 

• Breathwork regulates the nervous system, supporting hormonal balance and reproductive function.

• Ancient yogic practices like Pranayama offer free, accessible tools for stress reduction and enhanced vitality.

• Techniques like alternate nostril breathing and humming bee breath can be easily integrated into your daily life.

• Breath can help release emotional tension and stimulate vagal tone, a key player in fertility health.

• Conscious breathing increases oxygenation, supports digestion, and boosts clarity.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 339 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a deeply healing and powerful practice that has stood the test of time. It's called Pranayama or yogic Breath Work. You might be surprised to hear just how much breath work could influence your mind and your nervous system, and then in turn influence your reproductive health.

  Michelle: 'cause we know that the nervous system plays such an important role on reproductive health. So if you wanna find out more about powerful breathing exercises that you can do so easily and they're free, that can influence your nervous system and how you feel. Overall, this episode is for you.

  Michelle: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a [00:01:00] fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: So, so today I'm going to cover a very interesting topic, which is Pranayama. so this is an ancient Indian or yogi or yo guine practice that has been done for thousands of years.

  Michelle: Pranayama or yogic breath work

  Michelle: is extremely powerful And can really impact the mind and the nervous system. So if you wanna find out more on how to hack your nervous system, and if you've watched some of my earlier videos, I talk a lot about how your nervous system really can influence your fertility health because it gets you into a more rest and digest state.

  Michelle: And it can also influence your inflammation and your digestion and even create more balance in your hormones. So if you are trying to conceive and you wanna [00:02:00] find out how you can really hack your body and mind through pranayama this amazing ancient tradition, this amazing ancient practice, then stay tuned.

  Michelle: So you might be asking yourself, what exactly is pranayama?

  Michelle: So in Sanskrit prana means life force vitality. So it's very similar to what chi in Chinese medicine means, and it's the life force vitality that goes through our body. a yma means control or expansion.

  Michelle: So Pranayama in essence, is the art of controlling your breath to influence the life force vitality in your body.

  Michelle: So it's not just about breathing more deeply though. That's part of it.

  Michelle: It is about becoming aware of how your breathing can influence your hormone balance and your nervous system,

  Michelle: as well as reducing stress. And these are all really important and impactful things when you're trying to conceive.

  Michelle: So, although this [00:03:00] is coming from ancient India, this is something that can control all bodies and all different cultures. and it's one of the many gifts that we get from the ancient Vedas, Which is really linked to Ayurveda and yoga. The yogic tradition is the aspect of the physical, and it's more of the physical therapy aspect of it, but this is all part of really the science of life and how they're perceiving that you're able to, and how they're giving you tools to really access this amazing, intelligent life force that resides in your body.

  Michelle: So just to kind of give you a little bit of an overview. So Prana is very similar to Q, which is Life Force Vitality, and this is basically the life force that we have that is intelligent and that keeps our body warm and that keeps our body functioning. So this is something that really is intelligent because that aspect of our bodies is [00:04:00] what tells ourselves what to do, and it also helps the self-healing mechanism of the body.

  Michelle: And when we're in fight or flight, and I always come back to the nervous system than our body is more worried about survival. And regeneration is not as much of a priority because survival is more important. But what happens when we're in survival is that everything moves towards that survival, and it's not worried about digestion.

  Michelle: It's not worried about inflammation. All the things that are running in the background. And it can also impact your sleep because when you're trying to survive, you can't rest, you can't sleep, you can't afford to, you wanna survive, you wanna be alive. So that's ultimately how the nervous system operates.

  Michelle: But when we're getting that free flow of energy and that we're able to really be enriched with the QI and the life force of Prana, and we're able to get also in a more rest and digest mode, things will flow more easily and they're not gonna be as constricted as it does, as things [00:05:00] do happen with stress.

  Michelle: And ultimately as an acupuncturist, one of the biggest things that I do is I work a lot on pelvic energy flow and blood flow. So when there's more flow in your body, there's more blood flow, there's less constriction. And as we know, many times when people have high blood pressure, you know, your blood vessels are actually.

  Michelle: Muscle and those muscles tighten and it causes more constriction and more pressure. And we know that stress can even impact blood pressure. So that tightening is what happens when we're stressed, and ultimately that tightening is going to block. Impact, as I mentioned with the liberty, which is really its role, is to get that energy to flow.

  Michelle: So one of the ways that we can hack really our minds and our bodies is through pranayama. And today I'm gonna talk about a couple of different. Techniques of breathing that you can do that will [00:06:00] immediately have an impact on how you feel and how the energy and the prana in your body is able to flow, which ultimately will be beneficial not just for your body and your reproduction, but also your mind.

  Michelle: And I'm sure you know that if you are on the fertility journey, it can be very stressful. And when you're stressed, there's been studies that show that when you're stressed, you can't really make a clear minded decision. And as we know, when you're on the fertility journey, you need that decision making aspect of your mind because you are going through a lot of different choices and options that are being thrown at you.

  Michelle: So the first breath that I am going to be sharing with you is called Nadi Shaana, and that is alternate nostril breath. I like to call it the yin and yang pranayama, although that's not really the name, because it balances the yin and the yang in our brain. So both hemispheres of the brain start to function and come [00:07:00] together.

  Michelle: And this is one of the most immediate calming exercises that you can do. And what it does is it basically you alternate sides and you will block one nostril and breathe in, and you can breathe into like the count of four or the count of eight, whatever feels right. But if you slow it also, you'll start to feel a little more peace so you can actually breathe into the count of eight.

  Michelle: Then close both nostrils. So breathe in one nostril, close the right, and breathe in from the left. Breathe in to eight, and then hold both nostrils closed to the count of eight, and then exhale from the right to the count of eight. And then breathe back in from the same one, the right to the count of eight, close both nostrils, and then breathe out from the left and then breathe back in for the count of eight out, eight in hold it.[00:08:00] 

  Michelle: So basically just remember one specific count and you're gonna keep doing that and then alternate your nose. Now you're gonna notice that one nostril is going to be a little more clear than the other. And that is actually very normal. Our bodies tend to go more yin and yang throughout the day, so one side will feel one way and the other side will not feel that same way, and you'll find that that will alternate throughout the day.

  Michelle: And that's kind of an interesting thing, but our bodies do alternate and we're constantly getting to this place of homeostasis so that our body can find balance. But through that, we do have those two sides, those dualities, which is why doing something like this can be so powerful.

  Michelle: So by balancing, because our nose is directly opened, you know, the olfactory nerve, which is also the sense is directly linked or connected to the brain. So by alternating those two sides, of [00:09:00] breathing, you are creating that balance from the left and right hemispheres of the brain, and that also can create more clear thinking if you are feeling anxious and it's hard for you to really make a decision.

  Michelle: This is a great exercise to do, and what this also does is activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the more rest and digest nervous system. So if you're feeling extra stressed and you wanna slow down your mind, this is amazing. It also improves oxygenation and it also creates more mindfulness.

  Michelle: 'cause as you're doing it, you're being very conscious of how you're breathing and how you're feeling because it is a practice that you have to pay attention while you're doing it.

  Michelle: So you could do this in the beginning of your day and then you can do this at the end of the day. And it could be literally two minutes, two minutes in the morning and two minutes at night. And I think that it is really nice to actually do it in the beginning and end of the day. 'cause you're literally doing it at yin and yang times of your 24 hour cycle.

  Michelle: So it can help you when you [00:10:00] first start to wake up, and then you can help you end the day really nicely and support your nervous system as you go to sleep. So another one that is one of my favorites is called Kati, and that is skull shining breath. Or you may have heard this, called breath of fire. And so ultimately what it is, is working through your diaphragm and after you do it for a while, you literally feel like you are breathing fire.

  Michelle: 'cause you can feel a lot of fire in your diaphragm area. So the area that I'm talking about is really the soft area of your belly that's right underneath your ribs. So you start to feel this, it's kind of like right above, it's between the bottom of your ribs and your belly button, right in that solar plexus in that area.

  Michelle: So you can put your hands there Before I actually go into the description of how to do it, I wanna talk about what it does. Breath of fire is incredible for [00:11:00] digestion and it is one of the more stimulating breaths, and I remember one of my teachers mentioning That there was like a saying that as many breaths as you breathe, that we only have a certain amount of breaths for our life.

  Michelle: And that is why it's important to breathe slow. And the slower we breathe, the longer we can live. And I asked about this one because it's actually a very rapid type of breath, and they said, well, it's considered one breath because it's, you're not fully exhaling.

  Michelle: You're kind of like pumping throughout the whole time that you're doing it. So it's actually considered one breath. It's not considered, many different breaths.

  Michelle: so another thing, the reason why it's called Breath of Fire is because in Ayurvedic medicine, a lot of times they refer to something called Agni, which is our digestif fire. And that justifier, I guess you can say correlates to really our ability to break down foods And really the acid that we have in our stomach that can cook the [00:12:00] food and ultimately the breath of fire. And Agni is very, very important. And sometimes people will have diminished Agni from drinking too much cold or not really eating correctly. And so we don't want that. We wanna actually kindle that fire because when you kindle that fire, it will protect your body, increase your immune system, and also break down foods so that the rest of the digestive system, is able to really assimilate the nutrition from the food.

  Michelle: Another thing that it can do is clear, stagnant energy. And then when stagnant energy gets cleared, then you're getting more flow in the body and Prana is able to really move. So. This is one of the most powerful breaths to really get things moving. And the only thing that I would say with this, and really everything that I'm saying is not medical advice.

  Michelle: And I would also say be cautious. If you are about to do a retrieval, I would not do this breath because they are afraid [00:13:00] of ovarian torsion and this is something that you don't wanna mess with. So, and it is a very powerful and moving type of breath.

  Michelle: But I'd like to compare it to when the Native Americans used fire for brushes, you know, for, to get rid of like old weeds before they created new or planted new seeds. And this is one of those things, you're getting things outta the way, you're burning out the stagnation with this breath in order to get more flow and more new energy coming into the body.

  Michelle: so here's how you do it. So in between the bottom of your ribs and your belly button, so put your hand there and you could put both hands, one on top of the other. And what you do is you forcefully exhale, and you will find that when you do that, you're naturally going to bounce back almost like a rubber band where it just inhales.

  Michelle: By nature. And then you don't worry about the inhale 'cause it's gonna happen automatically and you just keep exhaling and you just [00:14:00] pump with the exhale. So you go and you'll feel that bounce when you have your hand there. And over time you'll find that it can get longer and longer as you practice.

  Michelle: In the beginning, you might get tired sooner and sometimes you might even find that it makes you cough. It is so purifying, it will actually make you cough up old mucus in your lungs. So it is pretty wild how it works.

  Michelle: So the next type of breath is called baa, and that is also called the bellows breath. And this is a little bit more active and I'll describe it so that you understand how to do it.

  Michelle: But first let me explain what it does.

  Michelle: So Bas Rica, very similar to the breath of fire, is also a breath that is very active and it can stoke the internal fire in our bodies.

  Michelle: It also involves very, forceful inhales and exhales. But in this case, you're gonna be [00:15:00] using the arms.

  Michelle: It is considered to activate the Kundalini energy in the body. This is the energy that runs up and down our spine and feeds really all of our organs and body

  Michelle: and supports our body's energetic flow. and it also is considered to have a balancing effect on the doshas. If you've watched my Ayurvedic video, I talk about the different doshas, which are really elements in your body, and this is considered to be a good breath that balances all of that.

  Michelle: It can also boost oxygenation and mental clarity. And how you do it is you raise your arms up and you have your hands out. So your hands are completely open and your arms are just raised up, and you inhale as you do that, And as you exhale, you close your hands and you bring your elbows to the side, so you bring your hands down so you inhale with your hands up. [00:16:00] stretch hands, and then you exhale forcefully as you bring it down, as if you're bringing something down or pulling something towards you from the top to the bottom.

  Michelle: So your elbows basically end up by your side and completely folded with your hands next to your shoulders in a fist. So inhale, bring your hands up. Wide open, exhale really forcefully as your hands go down into a fist next to your shoulders.

  Michelle: So this is kind of related to the breath of fire. There's definitely a lot of heat that will be coming out from it, It is a very good practice to really get that energy moving. If you feel like it's stuck. This is great. If you feel a lot of stress and you feel a lot going on. If you wanna come home and you feel like you've had a very stressful day, this is a great way to break that up.

  Michelle: So lastly, I'm going to cover something called Ari, or. Humming bee breath.

  Michelle: [00:17:00] So actually this breath and the way you're supposed to do it is one thing that we know for sure is a technique that stimulates the vagus nerve. And as we know, the vagus nerve is extremely important when it comes to reproductive health That's because it has so many different functions, and one of them, which is really key, is promoting really good digestive health, lowering inflammation, improving sleep, and on and on.

  Michelle: And it basically helps the body get into a parasympathetic mode. And one of the ways that is known to stimulate your vagus nerve is by humming. So this breath And another thing is that when you do hum on an exhale, you are actually by nature because you're using your voice, you slow down your breath.

  Michelle: So this is a great way to slow down your breath as you are exhaling.

  Michelle: So this can also reduce any emotional tension And it could also reduce heart rate and blood pressure.

  Michelle: so what you do for [00:18:00] this breath is inhale, fully hold it at the top, and then exhale with a humming sound. So.

  Michelle: And then you just breathe all the way out. So as you'll notice when you're humming, you actually slow down your breath, so it naturally slows down your breath, which has an immediate impact on any kind of state of anxiety. It will really calm your mind. So this is an amazing thing to do, and you can really do this while you're driving.

  Michelle: Just keep your eyes open for obvious reasons, But you could do this even while you're driving. If you're driving to a doctor's office and you're feeling really nervous, you can do that. a lot of times, om in my car, and this is just kind of one of the things that I do, and I find that it really, it, it feels like I'm singing a song, but I'm just oing.

  Michelle: So it feels really calming on my nervous system. It feels like an internal massage, having that vibration. So that can help a lot. And again, you could do this also at the end of the day if you had a lot of. Things [00:19:00] going on if it was a very intense day, and you can get yourself ready and your nervous system ready for more rest.

  Michelle: And actually that was not my last one. I have one more. and this is something that you can do at all times, and it's called UJA breathing. So if you practice yoga, you may have heard of UJA breathing because it's something that a lot of yogis will teach you to do during your yoga practice, and that is something that you can take with you really throughout the day. And what it is, is causing a little bit of constriction in your throat as you're breathing So that your breath could be a little louder. So it's kind of like this constriction where you're able to feel the breath going through your throat. so it's like making a little bit of a, a humming or a sound while your mouth is closed and you could practice. I'm sure you've done this naturally, even when you were little, And it's a very calming and very grounding breath.

  Michelle: It is thought to increase the lung capacity, and it's [00:20:00] also thought to balance out the heat in the body, and it's also thought to balance out the temperature in the body. So it's kind of like a yin and yang balance.

  Michelle: And it can also, since it's so grounding, promote a meditative state. So it's something that you can do, and this is one of the reasons why a lot of yogis use this during yoga, because ultimately yoga was a, was a practice that prepared yogis to meditate. It got the body into a state where it was able to meditate more deeply.

  Michelle: So just to reiterate, none of this is medical advice. It's not something that should ever take the place of what doctors tell you It should not be something that ever takes the place of medical.

  Michelle: Protocols that you've been given, and also to be aware or talk to your doctor if you are going through IVF, to talk to them about different breathing exercises and perhaps to pause on any of them during the IVF process. [00:21:00] If you have any questions or ideas for future episodes, I would love to hear from you.

  Michelle: I'm very active on Instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. I don't always respond right away, but I always eventually get to all of them. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

  [00:22:00] 

Ep 338 Eggs, Estrogen & Empowerment: Navigating Fertility with Dr. Nirali Jain

 On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md), a board-certified OB/GYN and reproductive endocrinologist at Reproductive Medical Associates (RMA). Dr. Jain shares her expert insights on fertility preservation for individuals undergoing cancer treatment, a crucial yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive care.

We explore what options are available for fertility preservation, including egg and sperm freezing, and why it’s so important to initiate these discussions before starting chemotherapy or radiation. Dr. Jain also explains the difference between Letrozole and Clomid, the impact of estrogen-sensitive cancers on IVF treatments, and innovative approaches like random-start cycles and DuoStim protocols. Whether you're facing a cancer diagnosis or simply thinking proactively about your reproductive future, this conversation is filled with knowledge and reassurance.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md) is a board-certified OB/GYN and fertility specialist at Reproductive Medicine Associates (RMA) in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. She earned both her undergraduate degree in neurobiology (with a minor in dance!) and her medical degree from Northwestern University, before completing her residency at Weill Cornell/NYP, where she served as co-Chief Resident, and her fellowship in reproductive endocrinology and infertility at NYU Langone.

Deeply passionate about women’s health and fertility preservation, Dr. Jain blends the latest research and cutting-edge treatments with compassionate, patient-centered care. Her interests include third-party reproduction and oncofertility, and she is especially passionate about supporting patients navigating fertility preservation through a cancer diagnosis.

Outside of the clinic, Dr. Jain is a trained dancer, a dedicated global traveler, and an adventurer working toward hiking all seven continents with her husband. Her diverse experiences, from international medical rotations to personal connections with friends and family navigating infertility, have shaped her into a warm, resourceful, and determined advocate for her patients.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Visit RMA website
Follow Dr. Nirali Jain on Instagram


 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast Jain. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Thanks so much for having me

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so.

  Michelle Oravitz: I'm very excited to talk about this topic, which, um, actually you don't really hear a lot of people talking about, which is how to preserve your fertility if you're going through a cancer diagnosis and if you have to go through treatments. 'cause obviously that can impact a lot on fertility.

  Michelle Oravitz: I have, um, seen actually like a colleague of mine go through. And she also preserved her fertility and, and now she has a baby boy. so it's really nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: to

  riverside_nirali_jain_raw-video-cfr_michelle_oravitz's _0181: so nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I'd love for you first to introduce yourself and kind Of give us a background on how you got into this work.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. Um, so I am Dr. Narly Jane. I am, um, an OB GYN by training, and then I did an additional, after completing four years of residency in OB GYN and getting board certified in that, I did an additional training in reproductive endocrinology and [00:01:00] infertility or otherwise known as REI. So now I'm a fertility specialist.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, I trained at Northwestern in Chicago, so I went to undergrad and medical school there. And then, um, home has always been New Jersey for me, so I moved back out east to New Jersey. Um, I did all my training actually in New York City at Cornell for residency and NYU for fellowship. Um, and then moved to the suburbs.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, and now I'm a fertility specialist in, in Basking Ridge at Reproductive Medical Associates. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Very impressive background. That's awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: I'd love to hear just really. About what your process is. If a person has been diagnosed with cancer, like what is the process? What are some of the things that you address if they are trying to preserve fertility, and what are some of the concerns going 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah, yeah. All great questions. So, you know, there's a lot of us, uh, the Reis. Are a very small, [00:02:00] there's a very small number of us. So in terms of specializing in fertility preservation, technically we all are certified to treat patients with cancer and kind of move them through fertility preservation before starting chemotherapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, luckily we've been working closely with oncologists in the past several years just to establish some type of streamlined system because having a diagnosis of cancer and hearing all that information. Especially when you're young is so hard. So I think that's, that's where my interest started in terms of being able to speak to and counsel cancer patients.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think it is a very specific niche that you really have to be comfortable with in our field. Um, I. So I'll kind of walk you through, you know, what it, what does it look like, right? Um, you go into your oncologist's office suspecting that you have this, this lump. I'll take breast cancer, for example. It could really be any kind of cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but breast cancer in a reproductive age patient or someone that's in those years where you're starting [00:03:00] to think about building a family, planning a family, um, or if you have kids at home, that's usually the type of patient that we see come in with a breast cancer diagnosis. So. Kinda just taking that, for example, um, the minute that you're diagnosed, it's really your oncologist's responsibility to counsel you on what treatment options are going to be offered to you.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And then based off of the treatment options, it's important to know how that affects your reproduction. So how does it affect your ovaries in the short term, in the long term, um, in any way possible. So. Once a patient is initially referred from their oncologist to myself or any other fertility specialist, they come into my office and we just have a 30 minute conversation really talking about family planning goals.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Any kids that they've had in the past either naturally conceived or through um, IVF, and then we talk about where they're at in their relationship. Are they married, are they not? Are they with a partner, [00:04:00] a male partner, a female partner, whatever it might be. It's important to know the social standpoint, um, especially in this sensitive phase of life.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So patient patients usually spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um, just kind of talking through where they're at, how they're feeling, what their ultimate childbearing goals are. And then from there we do an ultrasound and that's when I'm really able to see, you know, the, the reproductive status.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So what do the ovaries look like? What does the uterus look like? Is there something that I need to be concerned about from a baseline GYN standpoint? Um, and all of those conversations are happening in real time. So. I think one of the things is patients come in and they're like, I'm already so overwhelmed with all this information from my oncologist, and now my fertility specialist is throwing all this information at me.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Luckily, the way I like to frame it is you come in and you just let go. Like you let us do the work because in the background we're the ones talking to your oncologist. We're the [00:05:00] ones giving that feedback and creating a timeline with your oncologist. Um, and really I think just getting in the door is the hardest part.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So once patients are here to see us, we go through the whole workup. We do anything that we would do for a normal patient that came in for fertility preservation. And then based off of where they're at in their journey, we talk about what makes sense for them, whether that means freezing embryos, freezing eggs, they're very similar in terms of the, the few weeks leading up to the egg retrievals.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I have that whole conversation just at the initial visit. And then from there we talk about the timeline behind the scenes and make sure that it works with their lives before moving forward.

  Michelle Oravitz: So for people listening to this, why, and this might be an obvious question, but to some it might not be, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: why would somebody want to preserve. eggs or sperm. 'cause I've had actually some couples 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep.

  Michelle Oravitz: come to me where the husband preserved the sperm and they had to go through IVF just because he was going [00:06:00] through cancer treatments. So he had to preserve the sperm ahead of time. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: people need to consider doing that before doing cancer treatments? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So there are certain cancer treatments that do affect the ovaries and the sperm health, and you know, for men and women, it affects your reproductive organs. In a similar way, um, depending on the type of chemotherapeutic agent, there are some that are more dangerous in terms of, um, being toxic to your ovaries or toxic to your sperm.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And those are the instances where we are really thinking about what's the long-term impact because there's medications that oncologists do give patients, and our oncologists are amazing, the ones that we work with, Memorial Sloan Kettering from Reproductive Medical Associates through RMA, um, and.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: They're just so good at what they do and are so well-trained, so they know in the back of their mind, is this going to impact your ovaries or your sperm health or not? Um, and I [00:07:00] think that any chemotherapy, you know, your ovaries are these, these small organs that are constantly turning over follicles every month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So every month we're losing those eggs, and if they don't become. If an egg isn't ovulated, it doesn't become a baby, it's just gonna die off. So I counsel even patients that don't have cancer, I counsel them on fertility preservation as young as possible. You know, between the ages of 28 and 35, that's like the best time to preserve your fertility.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So in cancer patients, there's an extra level added to that where even if they are a little bit younger, a little bit older. Your eggs are not gonna be the same quality. There's gonna be higher level of chromosomal errors, more DNA breakage, um, and, and bigger issues that lead to issues with conceiving naturally afterwards.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I think that it's important to consider how that chemotherapy is going to affect them or how surgery would affect them if it was, for example, a GYN cancer where [00:08:00] we're removing a whole ovary, you know, what, what do we have to do to preserve your fertility in that case? And those are important conversations to have.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. for sure. I know that a lot of people are also concerned, you know, with going through the IVF process, you're taking in a lot of estrogen, a lot of hormones, and many cancers are actually estrogen sensitive. So I wanted to talk to you about that. 'cause I know that the data shows that it's. It's been fine, which some people might find surprising, but I wanted you to address that and just kind of

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: from your perspective. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's so interesting that you asked that question because I actually, my whole I I graduated fellowship last year and my entire, like passion project in fellowship was looking at one of the drugs that we use to suppress the estrogen levels specifically in cancer patients. Um, and I had presented this at a few of our reproductive meetings.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, A SRM is one of our annual meetings where all of the reiss get together. A lot of male fertility [00:09:00] specialists come and we kinda just talk about. Specific things and fertility preservation for cancer patients is, has been an ongoing topic of interest for all of us. Um, and it's important to know that there are different medications that we can offer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is the one that I, um, have a particular love for and I, uh, you know, I use all the time for my patients, um, for different reasons, but it suppresses the exposure that your body has to estrogen. And there's mixed data, um, out there in terms of, you know, does Letrozole suppression actually impact, you know, does it help or.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Or does it have no impact on your future risk of cancer after treatment? Um, and that honestly is still up for debate. But what we do know is that there's no increased risk of cancer recurrence in patients that have undergone fertility preservation with or without Letrozole. Um, Letrozole is one of those things that we can give, and the way it works is basically.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It masks that [00:10:00] conversion. It, it doesn't allow for conversion from those androgens in the male hormones over to estrogen. Um, and so your body doesn't really see that estrogen exposure. It stays nice and low throughout your cycle, and it does help with actually ovarian maturation and getting mature eggs harvested and, um, helps a little bit with, with quality too.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I think that it's really nice in terms of having that available to us, but know that. It's not, it's not essential that you have it, really, the data showing plus minus. Um, but there are certain things that we can do to protect the ovaries, protect your exposure to estrogen. Um, and so that shouldn't be top of mind of concern when we're going through fertility preservation, even with an estrogen sensitive cancer.

  Michelle Oravitz: Actually, so, uh, on a different topic, kind of going back to that, so Letrozole versus Clomid, I, it's like a, the questions I personally feel just based on what I've heard and like my own research that Letrozole would be kind of like the more. [00:11:00] Um, the, it's, it's a little better, but I know that it really depends on the person as well. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: they might do better with Clom, but I'd love to hear your perspective and kind of pick your brain on this. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally. You're choosing all the, all the right questions because these are all of my, my specific interests and niches. So 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is basically, you know, we use Letrozole and Clomid in. Patients that don't have cancer and patients that come in for an intrauterine insemination, that's kind of the most common scenario where we're thinking about, you know, which medication is better?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole or Clomid and Clomid used to be the, the most common medication that we use, we dose patients, you know, have 50 milligrams of Clomid, give them five days of the medication. It's an oral pill. Feels really easy and. The way it works is really, it recruits more than one follicle, so it really helps with the release of, um, more than one follicle growing more than one follicle in the ovary.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but it has a little bit [00:12:00] higher of a risk of twins because that's exactly what it's good at. Um, Clomid, not so much in the cancer. In the cancer front, it's not really used there because it's considered, from a scientific perspective, it's considered like a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So it doesn't necessarily suppress your estrogen levels in the same way that Letrozole does versus.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor, so it really blocks the chemical conversion of one drug or one hormone to the other hormone. Um, the reason we love Letrozole so much, and I don't mean to like gush over Letrozole, but um, it's a mono follicular agent, so it works really well at recruiting one follicle 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: you know, every OB-GYN's nightmare in a way is having multiples when you didn't intend on having multiples at all.

  Michelle Oravitz: so 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um.

  Michelle Oravitz: were saying that, um, there's more of a chance of twins, it's Clomid, not letrozole. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yes, there's a higher chance with Clomid versus Letrozole. And I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a chance of twins with [00:13:00] any type of assisted reproductive technology. Even when we're doing single embryo transfers, there's a chance that it's gonna split. So, um, the chance is always there just like it is in the natural world.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: But we know for a fact that. CLO is really good at recruiting many follicles. It's good for certain patients that don't respond well to Letrozole. Um, but Letrozole is kind of our, our go-to drug these days just because of all the benefits that we've seen. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: These are all fun things to ask because I, I love talking to our eis 'cause there's so much information that I'm always 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally.

  Michelle Oravitz: learn a lot from my patients in my own research, but it's really cool. Picking your guys' brains. So another question I have, and I have actually talked to Dr. Andrea Elli, he's been on, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: and he does a lot of endometriosis and, and immune related work as well, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: so. I'd love to know just from your perspective. One thing that I do know from, based on what I've heard is that the, [00:14:00] guess like you were just saying, that breast cancer or estrogen sensitive breast cancer doesn't seem to be affected by IVF cycles, however, and endometriosis lesions do get affected. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: that's a great question. So, you know, every, there are so many complex G mind diagnoses that the, that our patients come in with. Um, and endometriosis is a big one because there is clear data that endometriosis is linked to infertility. So we think about, you know, when a patient comes in with endometriosis, we really do think about the different treatment options and what are the short-term and long-term impacts of the hormones that we're giving 'em.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, these days, again, kind of going back to Letrozole, we, letrozole is something that I give all of my endometriosis patients because it helps suppress their estrogen because we know. 

  Michelle Oravitz: interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: is very responsive to estrogen and leads to this dysfunctional regulation of all the endometrial tissue that can really flare in a, [00:15:00] in a cycle, or shortly after a cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I. So we really, for endometriosis patients, the, the best treatment is being on birth control because we don't see that hormonal fluctuation. The up and down of the estrogen and the progesterone, that's what leads to those flares. Um, so I really, I watch patients closely after their cycles too, because you definitely can have an endometriosis flare and we say the best treatment for endometriosis is pregnancy, right?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's when you're suppressed, that's when you're at your lowest. Um, and patients, my endo patients feel so good in pregnancy because they have. Hormones that are nice in that baseline, they're not getting periods of course. Um, and that's truly, truly the best treatment. 

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: But it is important to consider when you're going through infertility treatments.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: How does my endometriosis affect the short and long-term effects of the fertility medications? And really not to, not to say that they're bad in any way. I think a lot of endometriosis patients go through IVF and have success and do really, really well, and that's kind of the push that they need. [00:16:00] Um, but it's important to be mindful of the bigger picture here.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It's not just, you're not just a number of. A patient with endo coming in, getting the same protocol. It's really individualized to the extent of your lesions, what symptoms you're having, what grade of endometriosis, where your lesions are. So we're the RAs are thinking about everything before we actually start your protocol.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's crazy how in depth it is, and it's, it, there's just so, it's so multifaceted, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: when it's females 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally.

  Michelle Oravitz: are a little, I mean, they can, you know, there, there's definitely a number of things, but it's not as complicated and interconnected 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Exactly. Exactly. That's so true.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so one question I actually have, this is kind of really off topic, but something that I was curious about.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause I heard about a while 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: a, a type of cancer treatment that was used. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but for some reason it actually caused follicles to grow, [00:17:00] or to multiply. And they were

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: this definitely. Puts, um, the whole idea of like a woman being born with all the follicles she'll ever have on its head, I thought that was really Interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: Now I learned a little bit about it. I don't think it really went further than that, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: one of those things that they're like, Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know, it was kind of a random side effect of this chemo drug. I dunno if it was a chemo drug or a cancer drug. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: ever heard of that.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I was just

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I haven't, I mean, that's interesting. I feel like I'd have to look into that because that would be definitely a point of interest for a lot of Reis. But it kind of does go back to the point of, you know, women are really born with all the eggs we're ever gonna have. So it's about a million, and then it just goes down from there.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And the, by the time you start having periods, I like to kind of show my patients a chart, but you have a couple hundred thousand eggs and you ovulate one egg a month. That's, you know. Able to [00:18:00] progress into a fertilized egg and then into a, an embryo into a baby, um, if that's your goal. But otherwise, patients that are having periods and not trying to actually get pregnant, we're losing hundreds of eggs a month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It's important to kind of think about that decline, and it's important to know that that rate can be faster in patients with cancer, patients with low ovarian reserve. And sometimes when you have the two compounded, that's when a fertility specialist is definitely, you know, in the queue to, to have a discussion with you in terms of what that means and how you can reach your family building goals despite being faced with that, with that challenge.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: I mean, 'cause we know oxidative stress is one of the things that can cause, uh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: quality eggs, but it's also can cause cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: um, similar, you know, like things that really deplete the body could definitely impact. Um, and then what are your thoughts? I know I'm asking you all kinds of random questions,

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I love it.

  Michelle Oravitz: are your thoughts about doing low simulation in certain [00:19:00] circumstances versus high stem?

  Michelle Oravitz: Sometimes people don't respond as well to higher stems. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, that's a great point. I think that it kind of all goes back to creating an individualized protocol. If. A patient's going to a practice and basically just getting a protocol saying, this is our standard. We start with our standard of, you know, I, I think about the standard, which is 300 of the FSH or that pen that you dial up, and then 150 units of that powder vial.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And we have patients mixing powders all the time, and that's kind of our blanket protocol that we give patients. But that's not really what's happening behind the scenes. And if you're given a protocol that's, and being told, you know, this is kind of what we give to everyone, it's probably not the right fit for you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, there are certain patients that respond to a much lower dose and do really, really well, and then some patients that need a much higher dose. Um, and I think it's, that's kind of like the fun part of being an REI of being able to individualize the [00:20:00] protocol to the patient. Um, and I know for a fact there are so many, luckily, you know, we have so many leaders in REI that have been.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Have dedicated their entire careers to researching these different protocols and how they can help different patients. Um, patients with lower a MH, you know, might benefit from a duo stim protocol, for example. That's kind of the first one that comes to mind, but a protocol where we're using those follicles from the second half of a cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I would've never thought that those were the follicles that 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: would be better than the first half of the cycle, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Wait, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: but,

  Michelle Oravitz: that. Explain that. Um, because I think that that's kind of a unique 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: mm-hmm. 

  Michelle Oravitz: that I haven't heard of. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, so there's this new day. It's still kind of developing, but um, kind of going back to, you know, what's an individualized protocol? Duo STEM is one of the newer protocols that we've started using. I, I've used it once or twice in patients. Um, but it goes back to the research that shows that you might actually have two different periods of time in a menstrual cycle where you could potentially recruit [00:21:00] follicles.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: You could have a follicular phase where there's a certain cohort of follicles recruited, and then you have a follicle that forms creates a corpus glut. 

  Michelle Oravitz: um, protocols 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep. And then you basically go through the follicular protocol and then a few days after a retrieval, instead of waiting for a new follicular cohort or follicular recruitment from the first half of your menstrual cycle, you actually use the luteal phase and you recruit those follicles that would've actually died off or have been prematurely recruited in a prior cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So

  Michelle Oravitz: that's So 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: you just do a similar, I guess, um, medicine, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: go right back into it. 

  Michelle Oravitz: do the same exact thing, but right after ovulation. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Fascinating. That's really interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: has been your experience with that? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think it's, honestly, it's mixed. Um, so far, you know, our data from fertility and sterility and A SRM, it, it shows support for these DUO STEM [00:22:00] protocols, saying that if patients don't have that great quality of eggs or if they have a very low number, maybe they'd benefit from starting the meds earlier and recruiting follicles.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: A little bit earlier. Um, so we've seen positive results so far. A lot of work to be done in terms of really understanding it. Um, and of course, as a new attending, I have a lot more experience to kind of build on. Um, but I, I have seen success from it.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's fascinating. Are there any other new technologies, like new add-ons, um, that you've seen, that you've found to be really cool or interesting? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think the biggest thing, actually, kind of going back to our whole topic for today is fertility preservation cancer patients. One of the biggest things that I've learned recently is that we used to start fertility, um, patients. You know, only in the beginning of the cycle days, two or three is technically like when most.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Most clinics, um, start patients, but for our cancer patients, sometimes you don't have that time. You don't wanna wait a full month to [00:23:00] restart, um, your, you know, your menstrual cycle and then do the fertility preservation and then delay chemotherapy a full month. So we started doing what we call random starts.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So you basically start a patient whenever they come in. You know, it could be the day after your consultation, the day of your consultation. I've kind of seen all of the above. Um, and we've seen really good success with random starts, per se. Um, and we've been doing a lot more of that, where it's not as dependent on where you're at in your cycle.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, obviously there's a difference in outcomes. You might not be a great candidate for it, so definitely it's worth talking to your doctor about it. But it kind of gives relief to our cancer patients where if you have a new cancer diagnosis and you're like, oh, I just finished my period, like, I can't even start a cycle until next month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's not always true. Um, so it's always worth it to go into see a fertility specialist and just get, you know, get the data that you need right away, and then you can make a decision later on.

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. Um, Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: and I wanted to kind of cover a lot of different topics 'cause I know that [00:24:00] some people are gonna wanna hear what you have to say that don't necessarily, or, uh, have cancer. But it is important. I, I think that, you know, if you get to thirties and you haven't gotten married or you don't have a partner, I think it's really important to preserve your fertility in general. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: important thing. And then if you were going through a cancer diagnosis and you decided to preserve your fertility, um, guess more for women because they're eventually going to be thinking about transfers after they go through treatment. So what are some of the things that they would need to consider as far as that goes?

  Michelle Oravitz: Like after the 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: then they go through the cancer treatments. Um, and then what, how long should they 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah. Like what does it look like? So I've had patients that come back, you know, in my fellowship training I did a, a couple research projects on patients that came back to pursue an embryo transfer, um, after chemotherapy agent. And basically compared them to how they did, um, [00:25:00] compared to patients that didn't have cancer and just froze their embryos or froze their eggs and then came back to pursue a transfer and.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think the, the most reassuring thing from the preliminary data that we have is saying that there's no difference in pregnancy rates and no difference in life birth, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: of whether they had chemotherapy or not. After freezing those eggs and going through fertility preservation. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Amazing. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, in terms of where your body needs to be, I think the oncologist, we, we wait for their green light.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: We wait for their signal to say, you know, she's safe to carry a pregnancy. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And then once we do that, we basically treat you like any other patient. So if you're coming in for a cycle, if you're having periods, then it's reasonable to try a natural cycle protocol, wait for your body to naturally ovulate an egg.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And instead of obviously hoping that egg will fertilize, we, um, use a corpus luteum. We use the progesterone from the corpus luteum to really support this embryo being implanted into the uterus. Um. Yeah. [00:26:00] And then there's also another side. I mean, some patients don't get their periods back and they always ask like, what if I never get my period back?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: What if I'm just like in menopause because of the chemotherapy agents? And for that, we can start you on a synthetic protocol or basically an estrogen dependent protocol where you take an estrogen pill for a certain number of days. We monitor your lining, then we start progesterone, um, to support your hormones from that perspective instead of relying on your ovaries to release the progesterone that they need, um, and then doing the embryo transfer a few, few days after progesterone starts.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So there's definitely different protocols depending on where your menstrual health is at after the chemotherapy or after the cancer treatment. Um, but it's important to kind of just know that. That there's options. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the road if you all of a sudden stop getting your period.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. I mean, 'cause you, technically speaking, you can really control a lot of that. More so for transfers 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep.

  Michelle Oravitz: Retrievals really is kind of like what [00:27:00] eggs you have, what the quality is. But people can be in complete menopause and you guys can still control their cycles for transfer, which is kind of. A huge difference 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: in the 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: interesting. Any other, um, new, new things that you're, you guys are excited about? I always like to hear about like the new and upcoming things 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. 

  Michelle Oravitz: actually before, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I feel like there's always like updates and, and new data and things like that coming out, but just know, I think it's important for patients to know, like we're constantly, we're, the reason I chose to even pursue this field was because it's new. Right. There's something that we are discovering every day, every year, and that's what makes our, our conferences so important to attend, um, to really just stay up to date.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but we are, uh, constantly updating our embryology standards, the way we thaw our eggs, and the success rate associated with a thaw and [00:28:00] how we treat our embryos and the media that we use, right? Like, so we're really thinking about the basic science perspective every single day, and that's what makes this field so unique.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is really awesome. And so do you guys specialize specifically on, um. Egg freezing and, and I mean specific fertility preservation in patients that do that have cancer that are going through treatments, do you guys specialize specifically in that? I mean, I know you do range 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. Yeah, because it's such a small community, we all have our own niches and we all kind of have our own interests and 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: no like specific training. There are a couple courses that you take that I took in in training as well, just to kind of understand what it sounds like to, I. Council of fertility preservation, patient with and without cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, and then, you know, you kind of just learn by experience and you form a niche for something that you're passionate about. 'cause that's what makes you, you know, really thorough in, in your treatment. [00:29:00] So that's one of my interests. Um, and, but I would say, 

  Michelle Oravitz: training for that. It's just like 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: just know how to treat that in 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly. 

  Michelle Oravitz: especially if you're interested in doing that. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Exactly. That's exactly right. It's kind of, it just comes with the experience comes with your mentors and who you're surrounded by, and everyone kind of helps each other get to that point. But there are several specialists in our practice at RMA that specialize specifically in fertility preservation in cancer patients.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So we have a close communication with our oncologist and they know who to refer to within the practice because everyone has their own little interests. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Amazing. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: Um, definitely. I, like I said, I really enjoy picking your brain because it's a lot of fun for me. I, I do 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Totally. 

  Michelle Oravitz: acupuncture, so 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: and I, I think that it's just so crazy that our fields don't work together. I mean, we kind of do, but I think, I just feel like it would be so great 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly.[00:30:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: the expertise because you guys have immense. Benefits like in, in, uh, technology and incredible innovations and, and then the natural aspect of really understanding the, the body. And I, I just think that it would work so amazing together if it was more of like a thing. 'cause it, I know in China they actually combine the two 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: eastern. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, I mean I think that that's so important and there is data that shows, you know, there's actually a recent study that came out just a few weeks ago on the benefits of acupuncture for fertility patients. And we know that, I mean, I recommend it to all of my patients, specifically the day of the embryo transfer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: We, luckily, we offer it on site at RMA and we have acupuncturists that come in and, and do a session before and after the embryo transfer, and I think. A lot of that is targeted towards stress relief. But I also think that holistically it's important to feel at your best when we're doing something that's so crucial to your, to your health.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So to really focus on the diet, focus on stress relief, [00:31:00] focus on meditation, yoga, whatever it takes to get to your best wellbeing when you're going through fertility treatments, um, is so important. So I appreciate 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: like you that really specialize in the other side of. Of this, because I do consider it still part of the holistic medicine that we need to really maximize success for our patients.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: Jane, this is such a pleasure Of talking to you. You've given us some, so much great information and we've definitely dived into a, do a topic that I don't typically, I haven't yet spoken about. But, um, that being said, it's such an important topic to talk about. And thank you so much for coming on today.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: course.

  Michelle Oravitz: I get off, how can people find you? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's a great question. So I have, um, a social media page. I, it's called Expert nc. So like EGG, 

  Michelle Oravitz: I 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: um, expert nc. Try, tried to make it a little bit humorous. Um, but I'm all over social [00:32:00] media and would love to hear from anyone that is listening. I, you know, every, every day I get different, um, dms and I'm happy to respond.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I love hearing about everyone else's. Stories and things like that. Um, so that is kind of my main, main social media platform. Um, and then through like RMA and Reproductive Medical Associates, we also have a YouTube channel. We have an Instagram page, um, of our office available, um, as well that is public.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So you can find us pretty easily if you just kind of hit Google. But um, yeah, I'm kind of developing my social media platform as the expert and I hope it grows. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Love it. Great. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. so much

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Thank you.

  Michelle Oravitz: today. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. 

  [00:33:00] 

Ep 337 You’ve Tried Everything for Endo… But Have You Tried This?

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into a powerful and often overlooked connection in reproductive health, the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

While many approaches to managing endometriosis focus on supplements, surgery, or hormonal therapies, few consider the role of the vagus nerve in regulating inflammation, digestion, and nervous system balance. In this episode, I break down how vagal tone directly influences endo symptoms, and why it could be the missing piece in your healing journey.

I also share practical and accessible tools to stimulate vagal tone, from breathwork and cold exposure to acupuncture and mindfulness techniques. Whether you have endometriosis or are simply looking to support your fertility naturally, this episode offers actionable insights to help you regulate your body’s stress response and boost overall well-being.

Key Takeaways: 

• Endometriosis is not just a hormonal issue—it’s also tied to inflammation, gut health, and nervous system function.

• Research shows women with endometriosis often have lower vagal tone, which can worsen symptoms.

• Improving vagal tone can reduce inflammation and support digestion, egg quality, and hormonal balance.

• Simple practices like belly breathing, humming, and ear massage can stimulate the vagus nerve.

• Heart rate variability (HRV) is a useful tool for tracking nervous system health and vagal tone.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

  So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

  The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times. On the bladder or the intestines, if it's really, really severe each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

  So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

  This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So it's really fascinating.

  It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this. And if you wanna find out more, stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  /

  Michelle Oravitz: Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

  So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus. Called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

  The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times on the bladder or the intestines if it's really, really severe. Each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

  So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

  This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So. It's really fascinating.

  It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this and if you wanna find out more, stay tuned. 

  So now that I mentioned what endometriosis is and really the condition and how it can impact your fertility health, I'm gonna also talk about vagal tone and really what the connection is between the vagal tone and endometriosis. If you heard some of my earlier episodes, you'll know that I talk a lot about the vagus nerve and about how the nervous system is so impactful when it comes to reproductive health.

  It's gotten to the point where that has become my [00:03:00] obsession as a fertility practitioner. It is so important and it really explains the yin and the yang process and really how the body's able to get into a homeostasis and regulate itself. And it's so pivotal when it comes to fertility health. So the vagus nerve is a cranial nerve, and it's the largest cranial nerve in the body, but it plays an incredibly important role.

  And I've mentioned this before, but I'm gonna mention it again in case you haven't seen it before. What it does is it actually communicates with the enteric nervous system which is your digestive nervous system, and it's , hundreds of millions of neurons that go throughout your whole digestive process.

  And it can be one of the causes for people having issues with digestion when there's a low vagal tone. Because it is so impactful when it comes to digestion, and one of the things that Vagus nerve does is that it impacts the parasympathetic or rest and digest [00:04:00] aspect of the body. So when your body is in parasympathetic, that is the optimal time to digest food, and it can also cause a more.

  Calm state of mind where your body is not in fight or flight, but it's more regenerative. So when it is in fight or flight, it's a little bit more of a sympathetic response. Now, there's nothing wrong with being in the sympathetic response. It's not like the bad state to be in. It's actually part of our nervous system and part of the autonomic nervous system, which composes of both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic.

  But when it becomes too chronic, then it can cause a lot of different problems, and the body gets into a more survival state. So vagal tone basically refers to the vagus nerve's ability to function. So the stronger it is, the stronger it functions, the stronger the vagal tone. One of the ways that you can actually measure vagal tone is through something called heart rate variability, HRV, [00:05:00] and you can see many different apps, many different devices that actually measure that.

  And HeartMath Institute also discusses a lot about that, and they talk about the heart brain coherence, and they look at. Heart rate variability and vagal tone. And there was actually certain types of exercises, , that you can do to actually increase vagal tone and increase heart rate variability and also increase.

  Just by doing so, heart, brain coherence. So the higher the heart brain coherence and the higher the heart rate variability, the more calm we feel, the better state that we have. And apparently in conditions of endometriosis, the vagal tone. Is actually lower. So one of the things that I would definitely suggest if you do have endometriosis is to improve that vagal tone.

  And I'm gonna be discussing many, many different ways to do that. So as we know with endometriosis, one of the things that it's linked to is [00:06:00] digestive issues. And the higher the vagal tone and the better the biggest nerve is functioning, the better it can talk to and basically communicate with the enteric nervous system, which is really your.

  Digestive nervous system. And so we know that when we stimulate the vagus nerve, it can actually improve your digestive system. And when that happens, you're not only improving your ability to take in nutrients, but you're also decreasing the inflammation in the body, which is really pivotal when it comes to not just endometriosis, but egg quality and overall.

  Fertility health. So this is something that anybody who's going through the fertility journey, male or female, can benefit from regardless if you have endometriosis or not. So just to kind of go back on the endometriosis topic, one of the ways really the only true way that you can know if you have endometriosis is by getting [00:07:00] a laparoscopy.

  It is a surgery, so I'm not saying to go and do that. However, if you suspect that you might have endometriosis based on inflammation, gut imbalance, really strong menstrual pain, pain with periods and kind of lower back pain around that time, then you could still do this because you're gonna benefit from it anyway.

  So I would go and talk to your doctor if you do suspect that you have endometriosis to get your options. So besides looking at heart rate variability, you may kind of realize if your heart rate variability is high or your vagal tone is high based on how well you get back from really stressful situations.

  So if you are the type of person that. Gets anxious pretty easily. Startles really easily has like an off nervous system, gets really nervous around people. That's okay to a certain extent, if it's not [00:08:00]chronic, if it's not something that's really impacting your life. But if it is impacting your life and it's something that happens and when you get out of those environments that trigger that.

  You continue feeling like that, that may mean that you have a lower vagal tone, which means that you're not able to adapt from one state of stress to a more calm state of your nervous system. So while that doesn't confirm heart rate variability, and ultimately the best thing to do is really to measure it, and you can measure it with many devices like even, or ring, you know, there's many devices that actually track your body and your heart rate variability.

  And that would be the ultimate way to confirm it, but there are definitely symptoms that you can feel as well. So studies do confirm that women have a lower vagal tone if they have endometriosis, and that a lower vagal tone is also linked with higher inflammatory conditions. , some of the things in life that can impact [00:09:00] vagal tone really do have to do with high stress.

  So if you're constantly exposed to high stress in your life, that can impact your vagal tone. And also, I've mentioned this before, it's really important to know that if you do have high stress. It's not the end of the world if you have some stress, but high stress chronically can really impact your overall health and it can also throw off your nervous system balance.

  So even if you have IBS or any kind of gut conditions or inflammation or bloating, I'll be covering things that will also benefit you as well. So what's pretty amazing is that there have been studies, actually animal studies that have shown that increasing that vagus nerve stimulation, which will improve the vagus nerve function has been shown to decrease lesions in animals of endometriosis.

  This is thought to be because vagus [00:10:00] nerve stimulation can regulate and decrease inflammatory markers in the body. So I'm gonna cover a few ways that you can stimulate your vagus nerve overall. I. So breath work is amazing and it works with the diaphragm, especially belly breath. So as a child, you probably knew how to breathe. You'll see babies breathe from their bellies because that belly breath is actually the way we're supposed to breathe.

  But as we get older, we actually learn habits that are not really great for breathing. So belly breath is really good. So you could put your hand right underneath your. Ribs, which is where your diaphragm is, and start to use that, really the diaphragm as a muscle and breathe in and out and do this a couple of times a day to retrain yourself.

  To breathe from the belly. I remember not doing that. And then years ago, learning and retraining myself to the point where it became unconscious and I was just a [00:11:00] belly breather. And it really impacted how I felt in general because I used to have generalized social anxiety. And I remember going in for body work.

  A massage and the woman said, oh, you're a belly breather. So it, it is something that I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of myself that I actually trained myself. I wasn't even focusing on trying, and she noticed it. So it is something that you can train yourself. It's a habit that we have. It becomes unconscious.

  So just like a good habit can become unconscious, a bad habit can become unconscious, but you can also change that bad habit to a good unconscious habit. So I've talked about slow, deep breathing, but you can also do something called box breathing, which is inhale to four, hold to four, exhale to four, and then hold out to four.

  And then you can slowly increase that with time. I remember when I used to teach Kundalini yoga, we had something called, it was like the meditation [00:12:00] aspect of the yoga training, and it was something called the 16 seconds.

   breath. We would breathe in so it's not quite the box. It would breathe in to 20, hold for 20, breathe out to 20 and that's 60 seconds.

  And doing so really calms the mind. And of course you'd have to work yourself up to doing that and not do that right off the bat. 'cause it is very hard and it is a practice you have to build up to. So another thing that can help stimulate the biggest nerve is cold exposure. Now with Chinese medicine, you may have heard me say that it's not really great to have chronic cold exposure.

  So I often tell people, keep your feet warm or put socks on and don't put your feet on cold tile. Now this is. A chronic thing, this is doing something day in and day out. And also we do have our first kidney point on the bottom of our feet. The kidneys are in charge of our reproductive health, so you don't want that coldness from the tile to come up from the feet [00:13:00] into the channels.

  So this is why I say that for a day in and day out. But once in a while, you can give yourself a little cold exposure. Doing so, like maybe doing a quick cold shower once in a while is okay. Now, if you are, of course this isn't for everybody. If you are somebody who tends to be cold all the time, this may not be for you.

  But what they do find is that that quick stress effect of the cold exposure, like even a cold plunge. Can actually stimulate the vagus nerve. So it's a quick stress response. And then the body goes from stress, which is the sympathetic to parasympathetic. It starts to stimulate that nervous system regulation.

  Another thing that can really be beneficial is gargling or humming. And I personally love to ohm. If I feel really stressed, even if I'm driving, I just om or hum what humming does. Is, it actually slows down your breath. And you may have heard me say this before in [00:14:00] previous episodes, is that when you breathe slow and deep, you actually calm your nervous system.

  So, and especially your exhale. So the longer your exhale, the calmer your nervous system, and the more it's gonna go into parasympathetic mode. So when you're inhaling and you're exhaling with a hum, it slows it down. It actually stops it from being cleared fast. Of course, meditation and mindfulness. Now, what meditation does is it really gets us to a state of receptivity and a state of listening.

  When we're in meditation, we're paying attention to ourselves, even ourselves, when we're anxious or we're feeling uncomfortable. When you're feeling that sensation, it's almost like a somatic acknowledgement of your body sensation, so you're aware, you become more aware. Of what happens when you are feeling uncomfortable, and then having those times during the day is really beneficial for that mindfulness to increase.

  Because the more [00:15:00] you give yourself opportunities to pay attention to yourself, your mind, your body, how it feels, the more mindful you become, the more you can get really tuned in with your nervous system. And that awareness has been shown to really improve your overall physiology, which in turn. Can help your nervous system regulation and your vagal tone.

  And of course, one of my favorites is acupuncture. Acupuncture can help tremendously, and we actually have a bunch of points that I use often to stimulate the vagus nerve, and part of it is an ears. So another thing that I would suggest if you can't get to acupuncture is just massage your ears or even massage your feet.

  Anything that really stimulates that calming effect. The ears are one of the ways that we can access the vagus nerve. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from this information. [00:16:00] It is information that you may not often hear. I haven't heard about it before until I stumbled upon it and I was like, Hmm, that's very interesting.

  And then the more I learn about the nervous system, the more impacts I see that it has over reproductive health. So I hope this was beneficial for you and. If you ever have any questions, ideas, or thoughts for future episodes, you can always reach out to me and DM me on Instagram where I am very active and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility.

  So thank you so much for tuning in, and I hope you have a beautiful day. So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners.

Ep 336 The Detox Organ That Quietly Shapes Your Fertility

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore one of the most underrated yet powerful organs in your fertility journey, the liver. From both a Chinese medicine and Western medicine perspective, the liver plays a pivotal role in hormone balance, detoxification, and emotional regulation. I break down the signs of liver qi stagnation (hello, PMS and irritability!), how stress directly impacts this organ’s ability to function, and why supporting your liver is essential for optimal fertility and menstrual health.

You’ll learn practical ways to give your liver the TLC it needs, from stress-reducing rituals to the best foods and herbs that support detoxification and hormone balance. Whether you’re trying to conceive naturally or going through IVF, this episode is packed with tips on how to nurture your body’s natural detox pathways and create a more fertile environment from within.

Key Takeaways: 

• The liver plays a crucial role in managing hormones, detoxifying the body, and supporting menstrual health.

• In Chinese medicine, liver qi stagnation often caused by stress is a major pattern that affects fertility.

• PMS symptoms like irritability, bloating, and breast tenderness can stem from blocked liver qi.

• Western medicine highlights the liver’s role in clearing excess estrogen, important for conditions like PCOS, endometriosis, and fibroids.

• Supporting the liver with stress management, acupuncture, breathwork, and liver-friendly foods can significantly enhance fertility outcomes.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 336 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine, as well as how western medicine perceives it and understands it, and why it is really an important organ when it comes to your fertility health.

  So stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  /

  Today I'm going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine and how it is perceived as a very important organ when it comes [00:01:00] to fertility, health and menstrual health.

  And as we know, menstrual health is really the heartbeat of fertility health. Then also as it is seen through a Western medicine lens. I'm not a western medicine doctor, but there is a more conventional way of looking at the liver, which is a bit different as you'll see to how Chinese medicine perceives the liver.

  So the liver's role according to Chinese medicine is to ensure the free flow of qi, which is life force vitality or sort of an energy, but it's way more than that.

  also stores blood. And is really important to prepare the body right before a woman begins menstruation.

  It is very much related to emotions, and its emotion is anger. I. So when the liver is stagnated and is not able to ensure the free flow [00:02:00] of QI in the body, it can cause stagnation. And one of the biggest things that causes liver chi stagnation is stress. So it's actually one of the most diagnosed condition and pattern liver tree stagnation of all patterns.

  It is one of those things that a lot of people, and this actually reflects the state of the world today, because we just have so many demands and we're constantly being bombarded with information news. And the pace that we're going on is not a typical natural pace that we're used to or ancestors used to have, where we used to be a lot more connected with nature, which calms our nervous system and helps with stress.

  So some of the common signs, and it could be some and not all, or you know, the, any one of these really. If you have a few or a number of these symptoms, it might be showing that you have [00:03:00] liver chase stagnation. So you may have noticed that at times when you feel really stressed, you hold a lot of tension in your upper shoulders.

  That is actually a response to liver cheese stagnation. You may have also felt like you're sighing really strongly when you're stressed. That is liver cheese stagnation. It's a feeling of fullness in the chest where you feel like you need to blow off steam. I. If you felt really angry, and I mean really angry, that is definitely liberty stagnation.

  Or if you're feeling more irritability, that comes and goes. That is also liberty stagnation. I.

  Liver cheese stagnation can also impact PMS. So PMS really means premenstrual syndrome, so it could be an umbrella of many different things that can come up, and it doesn't necessarily have to be irritation. It could be other things as well. So one of those things are irritation [00:04:00] or fatigue or just really any symptoms that you have before your period.

  Constipation, bloating. Breast tenderness, mood swings. So those are all things that can be really under the umbrella of PMS, really having any kind of even cramping before you get your period. What that shows is that there is energy that is stuck, and since the liver has an important role of storing the blood and preparing the body for the menstrual cycle, what happens is.

  It also has a role for ensuring the free flow of qi, and when it is trying to do one thing, it's not, and it doesn't have as much energy to begin with, then it's not able to do all of its functions all at once. And of course, it becomes very busy. Right before a woman has her period, because it's preparing that, plus it's doing its regular job of ensuring free flow of qi.

  [00:05:00] So when that free flow of QI is being backed up or stagnated from the tenseness of stress, then it's not able to do its job and therefore women will experience PMS symptoms.

  And what happens now and what I see often in my practice is that. Women do have a lot of stress, so they may show up as having many different patterns at once. So stagnation is considered a full pattern, and then there's deficiency because sometimes a full pattern can actually cause deficiency because if something gets jammed up and blocked that being full, so it's more like a blockage.

  It can cause the body to not get the nourishment and. Energy that it requires, so that a stagnation, so a full type pattern can cause a deficiency. And then sometimes a deficiency can cause a full pattern and sometimes can, and sometimes deficiency can cause a full pattern. And then what can happen too is when the cheek gets stagnated for a very long time.

  It impacts like the next in [00:06:00] line, which is blood. And when blood gets stagnated, it can cause things like fibroids because then it becomes more of a mass. And so ultimately liver cheese stagnation is one part, but it can continue and progress to something way more severe. It can also impact endometriosis as well.

  And then liver cheese stagnation can also impact the spleen. So the elements of the liver when it is too stagnated can actually what's called overact on the spleen. And the spleen in Chinese medicine is in charge of your digestion. So if you've ever been in a situation where you feel really stressed, some people will either wanna overeat and then some people won't be able to eat at all, and sometimes their stress will end up.

  Being felt in the gut, and that is your liver overacting on your spleen and stomach, which is your digestive system in Chinese medicine.

  so conventional medicine sees the liver as having a [00:07:00] very important role when it comes to detoxification of your body.

  It really is the main organ, except of course there's other ones like your colon but the liver will detoxify a lot of chemicals and what happens often too is if your colon is backed up, it actually makes the job of the liver in cleansing your system harder. So in order to really take care of the liver, you don't just focus on the liver, you also focus on your gut health.

  So as we're seeing both in conventional medicine and in and in Western medicine and in eastern medicine, the liver and digestive system do work hand in hand, even though they're two different systems in the body, but ultimately the whole body has many different systems that work like a symphony.

  Now, how this relates to your menstrual cycle Is that one of the things that the liver does is remove excess [00:08:00] estrogen from the body, so it is important to remove excess estrogen. And nowadays we also have a lot of. Hormone mimicking chemicals like xenoestrogens, which are fake estrogens, that the body confuses for estrogens.

  And ultimately, when we start to get something called estrogen dominance, it causes things like endometriosis and fibroids, many different conditions, and it can also throw off our estrogen progesterone balance. Then ultimately because hormones are this intricate, delicate symphony, it can impact your hormones as a whole.

  This can also cause irregular cycles, which is obviously very important to regulate when you are trying to conceive.

  The liver also has an important role in regulating glucose and insulin, which is really important for many [00:09:00] conditions like PCOS, which tend to have many, there's many different types of PCOS, but most of it, the majority tend to have a link with

  insulin resistance, so that is really important as well.

  Some things that people might feel when their liver is more sluggish is they will feel more sluggish and tired. They'll feel hormone fluctuations. they'll have more PMS, and they might even see some skin issues like acne where their body is trying to cleanse itself.

  They might also feel bloated and constipated, and sometimes even might have a little more sensitivity in their right upper quadrant, which is the right section, right under the ribs.

  Ultimately, you want your body to be free of toxins and you want the energy to flow in order to have an optimal menstruation for women and really have optimal fertility.

  So there are definitely things that you can do to help your liver.

  [00:10:00] One of the biggest things, as we mentioned before, is actually managing stress. So in Chinese medicine, we really don't see a difference between the body, the mind, and the spirit. And there are so many different aspects that come together to really create our health. And that is why our mind and how we feel and our emotions are just as intricate and just as important as really what we put into our bodies through food and how we move and our exercise and our sleep.

  So all of those things really matter when it comes to your overall health and ultimately your fertility health.

  So some ways you can manage stress is. talk to somebody when you have a lot going on. It's really important because we as humans are meant to connect with others and it actually feels good for us to connect with community. It's important, however, to find people that you feel safe with and not people that will make you feel worse [00:11:00] for feeling your feelings.

  So it's important to have a safe space to talk and maybe perhaps a community. There are many different communities out there when it comes to fertility health and you can also find psychotherapists that's specifically work in the fertility category. So they really understand the stressors that come specifically from being on the fertility journey. So those are really great to seek out and there are many people that are professionals in that category. I.

  Another thing that is super, super important, and it's something that I actually wanna do a whole other segment on, which is breath work. So through breath work, you can actually stimulate your vagus nerve and regulate your nervous system. So it's really, really important to learn how to breathe because through the breath, that is one of the easiest ways to truly communicate with the brain that you feel safe.

  Then when you create a feeling of safety, your body will automatically feel at ease and it can let [00:12:00] go, and you'll also feel like you're thinking more clearly because when your liver is able to ensure that free flow of Qi, your body overall feels so much better.

  Meditation. I am a huge fan, and that is something that I have been doing for many years and has completely changed my life, so I highly recommend getting into meditation. You can get into many different meditations, and one of the things if you're just getting started and you don't know much. Is something that I recommend often to my patients and my coaching clients is to look into, um, something called the Headspace series.

  Headspace is an app, a meditation app, and there's a series on Netflix, and most everybody has Netflix. And they go through many different types of meditations. They explain exactly the science behind it and what those types of meditations do, and then at the end of each segment, they will cover and kind of guide you through that particular meditation that they spoke about.

  And I highly recommend doing [00:13:00] that because then you can try out different forms of meditation. The two main forms are. Paying attention to your breath or repeating a mantra in your mind. And there are many specific mantras and a lot of 'em are seed mantras that you can find from Vedic traditions, which is ancient India.

  And those work really amazingly.

  And of course, acupuncture. I'm a huge fan. it changed my own life and it helped me so much and this is really what inspired me to do it myself and to go back to school for it. Acupuncture is amazing for relaxing, but it's also great for so many other things, but it also can help with moving that energy blockage.

  So through acupuncture it ensures more free flow. And one of the things that I noticed when I first started acupuncture was that I came in for my periods. They did regulate and then I realized, hey, I'm a little less stressed at work. I feel a little better if somebody says something that's challenging for me to hear.

  I felt better [00:14:00] and I was able to receive it better. So that was one of the things that I noticed, and it was probably because, and now I understand it better. My energy and my free flow of QI was much better since I was going to acupuncture. So that is something that I highly recommend. And then just to keep in mind, things like alcohol and caffeine do get filtered by the liver, so having too much caffeine and alcohol has contributed to higher incidences of inflammation and endometriosis, and also fibroids. So the reason being is because those are things that need to get filtered by the liver. If you're giving the liver more work to do and it's going to be taxing, then it is going to impact how it is able to do its job. You ultimately don't wanna give it more toxins to worry about. So it really is something that it needs to filter out. So one of the things that you could do if you suspect that you have a more sluggish liver, or you need to give it a little [00:15:00] more TLC, I would definitely either lower your intake of alcohol and caffeine, and ideally it would be best to eliminate it completely.

  Similarly, you wanna avoid processed food that have ingredients that you cannot pronounce, all of those chemicals. You also wanna avoid environmental toxins, plastics, really things that will also contribute to a heavier load on the liver. You also want to ensure that you're getting proper sleep.

  Not only is that going to help your nervous system, but it's also gonna regulate your body overall and your overall chi. It's also going to help the liver. So one of the things that the liver does, as I mentioned before in Chinese medicine, is it soars the blood. And I remember one of my teachers early on telling me.

  Well, teaching the class that when you lay down, if you're really, really feeling tired and you feel really stressed, just laying down makes it easier for the liver to [00:16:00] store the blood because obviously you're not standing and you're laying. and by doing that, you're actually supporting the liver.

  So even taking naps sometimes can really help.

  There are definitely foods that can help, and cruciferous vegetables are amazing and these are really important, especially if you have endometriosis or fibroids. they specifically are really beneficial for the liver, but they're also great in eliminating toxins from your colon as well.

  So cruciferous vegetables are broccoli, cauliflower, and brussel sprouts.

  Other things that you can consider are dark leafy greens. And I would suggest cooking them slightly, not overcooking them, but those are actually really beneficial. And it's beneficial to cook because it can help your spleen digest it better.

  Lemon water on an empty stomach, because in Chinese medicine, the taste.

  Let me see.

  Lemon water is amazing because also in Chinese medicine, the taste for and an Ayurveda, the taste for the liver is [00:17:00] sour. And sour tastes and bitter tastes also support detoxification of the liver, so bitter greens think about things like that that will also support the liver.

  so examples of that are dandelion and turmeric And as far as herbal supplements, you may have heard of milk thistle. Sometimes they'll have a combination tincture that you'll find in health food stores of milk thistle and dandelion. And one of the things that I also wanna mention is that if you are going through IVF and what I typically will suggest to a lot of my clients Is to work on your liver or maybe have a little time in between treatments if possible, so that you're able to assist and maybe take those herbs like milk thistle and dandelion root, and then also something called sulforaphane, which is made from cruciferous vegetables, and it can also detoxify and support the liver.

  It's important to give [00:18:00] yourself that extra support if you know that your livers already being bombarded with a lot of excess hormones, which happens with cycles. So it is nice to give yourself a little break afterwards where you're able to assist the body in flushing it out.

  And magnesium is also a very key mineral to help support the liver's function.

  so ultimately you gotta love your liver. I mean, it has an incredible, incredible role when it comes to your overall health and when it comes to your fertility health. So it's important not to bombard it and really kind of take it as a two step to support it with the right foods, to eliminate things out outside in your environment or even the things that you're eating to encourage a healthier, happier liver.

  So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from it. Thank you so much for tuning in [00:19:00] today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.[00:20:00] 

Ep 335 Rethinking Fertility: Longevity, Herbs & the Taoist Way with Jiaming Ju

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world’s largest longevity data projects to creating personalized Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care.

We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men’s health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle.

This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition.

Key Takeaways: 

• Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage.

• Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles.

• True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test.

• Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys.

• Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health.
  
  

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about KUN Health here
Follow Jiaming Ju in Instagram

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 335 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is jamming Jew Jamming is the owner of Kon Health. Alongside her father, jamming went from leading the world's largest data collection on senior adults from New York to Singapore to joining her father in his decades long mastery of traditional Chinese medicine, infusing Ming's expertise on aging data and economics.

  Together they help people live healthy lives and preserve Chinese heritage. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast Chiming. 

  Jiaming Ju: Thank you for having me. [00:01:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like.

  That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners.

  Jiaming Ju: So I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. And. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. And then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to retrain for four years.

  It takes four years in California. And then that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a [00:02:00] lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. We don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health of the eggs and the uterine lining.

  So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've what you've seen. In practice.

  Jiaming Ju: Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that I work a lot in. And this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. And then that's when we work together.

  I also have a lot of patients who have repetitive miscarriage which is increasingly common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, and so I know that [00:03:00] we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs.

  I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.

  Jiaming Ju: Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. You 

  Michelle Oravitz: the acupuncture and the herbs and the,

  Jiaming Ju: treatment from the,

  herbal treatment. However, I think customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine.

  It takes a lot of family [00:04:00] lineage. You know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as 

  Jiaming Ju: no I don't. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, okay. 

  Jiaming Ju: We have all of you guys who are. 

  Michelle Oravitz: actually I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really focused on one aspect. 

  Jiaming Ju: Yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that.

  I usually say that [00:05:00] acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs.

  In terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. So this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have.

  A whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice has a lot more interest in the history, right?

  The history is being that. [00:06:00] We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of you know, fertility policies, aging population, right?

  How can you encourage, and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that.

  And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for [00:07:00] 3000 years.

  This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health and fertility.

  I. 

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine.

  I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine.[00:08:00] 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. But they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a month, and then you have to do this again.

  Right. it is very different perspective. I think many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health.

  I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you [00:09:00] know. it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming.

  And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice.

  Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression.

  Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for [00:10:00] the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve?

  Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? So Yeah. it's a different approach. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, completely. It's interesting you say about antidepressants because I feel like it's almost a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process.

  They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about [00:11:00] something that is actually crucial.

  If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that.

  It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby.

  You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together.

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? And then everyone is, and a [00:12:00] lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right?

  You do it and you'll get pregnant. The, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my patients and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For,

  fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are.

  Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF [00:13:00] technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs.

  IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? So I think there is a lot of a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage.

  I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, [00:14:00] what is the fundamental thing.

  It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often I and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy. 

  So this is very much so linked.

  It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems in the first two or three years there, basically.

  You know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg [00:15:00] diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues.

  So this is all interlinked. Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months.

  Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation. 

  Jiaming Ju: Mm-hmm. '

  Michelle Oravitz: cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months.

  You're gonna be in much better position.

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for [00:16:00] pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat healthy. All of those stuff, Right. And in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it.

  Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? And. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant.

  And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Jiaming Ju: You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I [00:17:00] don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I often I always ask about better the partner or whoever, is the sperm donor better?

  They have tested, oftentimes they have not. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I agree. 

  Jiaming Ju: has done all the 

  work then, 

  Michelle Oravitz: I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know.

  through research I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like.

  20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then.

  So, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Correct. 

  Jiaming Ju: right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to [00:18:00] get checked. It takes no time at all. 

  Michelle Oravitz: I know.

  Jiaming Ju: So like how is it in this, like, you know.

  this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner 

  checked first. Um, it's It is interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with the embryos to grow.

  So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation.

  Jiaming Ju: It is always a little too late. And interestingly I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. The second one who was born in the [00:19:00] us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more.

  Like there is like, I think the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service throughout is very low compared to other countries. But I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms.

  Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then you 

  know, there 

  Michelle Oravitz: supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head. 

  Jiaming Ju: right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between Chinese medicine and western medicine.

  Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of [00:20:00] people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from.

  The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard.

  Chinese medicine clinics where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's it's a very different process. Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was in a completely different career and I all I could get from [00:21:00] every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get.

  Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology.

  He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody on like, what's going on in my body?

  Jiaming Ju: right. 

  Michelle Oravitz: And then so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my [00:22:00] period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in.

  Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing.

  Jiaming Ju: Right. The, the physical is mental and that is observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. And usually as both the, the mental improved physical improvement and vice versa.

  And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I [00:23:00] didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. It's, I think is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yep.

  Jiaming Ju: Isn't that weird? 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients especially and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue for A DHD patients is better.

  You have anemia. And often they do. But as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. [00:24:00] The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD.

  This is the reason why a lot of women who thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost 

  Michelle Oravitz: it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And then when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment.

  It was [00:25:00] for, I believe, for specific reason, Right.

  There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore C-section was so popular.

  It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. Like I need to have a child.

  Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we [00:26:00] probably wants too much.

  I don't know. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body.

  So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. And so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation.

  For people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically.

  Jiaming Ju: Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So [00:27:00] some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no,

  they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it.

  This is intense Stress. 

  Handling it, you know, 

  doesn't 

  Michelle Oravitz: first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect.

  Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's.

  Jiaming Ju: I think this is the hardest lesson in life. I feel. Is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. [00:28:00] And I think liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage.

  But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's resistance. It's resistance to life. 

  Jiaming Ju: frustration, right?

  You're like constantly frustrated. Someone else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. And I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health.

  [00:29:00] I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit?

  The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant.

  Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple [00:30:00] of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yep.

  Jiaming Ju: I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agnostic like process, right? Because You need a bit of luck For a person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients, 

  Michelle Oravitz: yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need.

  And that's that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see.

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And it is, you will see whenever that [00:31:00] happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility.

  And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. So this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate.

  And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to.

  But that is hard. I think 

  Michelle Oravitz: It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often [00:32:00] missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help.

  And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do.

  And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates.

  And so you see that often?

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive [00:33:00] into uncertainty. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Jiaming Ju: You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else.

  They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them.

  It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that really starts even during pregnancy preparation. 

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life 

  Jiaming Ju: Right, 

  Michelle Oravitz: and you're not like, [00:34:00] you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away. 

  Jiaming Ju: right. you.

  can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance happen.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah.

  But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right?

  Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're [00:35:00] gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment.

  And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? So, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. [00:36:00] Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully.

  So. 

  Michelle Oravitz: And what other suggestions do you ever give people suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did.

  So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health.

  Jiaming Ju: We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient that I will hold 'em to it. That includes 

  nutrition and also lifestyle [00:37:00] tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six.

  Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre preparing for pregnancy, they should too. And I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. And there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe.

  Michelle Oravitz: That. That's my favorite, by the way. 

  Jiaming Ju: and I, you know, your New York [00:38:00] patients will be like, no. But like, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain.

  Jiaming Ju: So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. It's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to.

  So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite [00:39:00] thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge people's sense of fashion.

  So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great. 

  Michelle Oravitz: But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow 

  state. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine, 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's true.

  Jiaming Ju: So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? [00:40:00] You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change.

  You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Pinning so much hope on this. So yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life.

  It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, it's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it. 

  Michelle Oravitz: 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to [00:41:00] look at like. How it interplays and works together as a whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Jiaming Ju: The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. So this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant when you become a parent.

  And I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more [00:42:00] seriously, but also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right.

  But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means.

  The implication at your health more seriously. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else.

  And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. So for people who want to work with you, what do you offer?[00:43:00] 

  Are there, 

  Jiaming Ju: I only, well, so if you are interested in Chinese medicine, you wanna know how much I can tell you just from your tongue reading 

  Michelle Oravitz: about this. I have to just, I'm opening my gate. Because I have a delivery. Okay, sorry. Okay, let's start that again. Camille 

  Jiaming Ju: I also probably need to go in five minutes. I have a patient in a bit, but I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets.

  So I think That's the number one thing you can do. And in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. And that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine.

  But usually the [00:44:00] serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we that I have written.

  For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that 

  includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack.

  For that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: That's great. Sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs. 

  Jiaming Ju: no, I only do gran. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to [00:45:00] digest, easier 

  Jiaming Ju: right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it.

  is we, so it's everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single patient. So, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Fantastic. And how can people find you?

  Jiaming Ju: You can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok.

  I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, Instagram is my 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you [00:46:00] so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you. 

  Jiaming Ju: you. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome.

  Yeah. 

Ep 334 This Sleep Habit May Be the Key to Getting Pregnant Faster

On today’s episode, I’m joined by Dr. Peter Martone @drsleepright, an educator, injury prevention specialist, and chiropractic expert who has spent the last 25 years transforming health by helping people sleep better through spinal alignment. After a personal injury led him to uncover a surprising link between poor sleep posture and chronic health issues, Dr. Martone developed what he calls the “Corrective Sleeping Position” a method that supports spinal health, optimises vagal tone, and enhances parasympathetic nervous system function.

We dive into how nervous system imbalances impact fertility, why improving sleep is about who you become, and how simple shifts in your sleep setup can profoundly change your energy, hormone regulation, and overall wellbeing. Dr. Martone also introduces his animal sleep avatar test and shares practical advice on how to align your body and mind for optimal healing, starting in bed!

Key Takeaways: 

• The autonomic nervous system plays a central role in fertility, especially the parasympathetic (rest and digest) system.

• Correct spinal alignment during sleep can reduce nerve interference and improve organ function, including reproductive health.

• Many fertility challenges can stem from imbalances in vagal tone and nervous system inhibition.

• Dr. Martone’s “Corrective Sleeping Position” helps improve heart rate variability and promotes deeper healing at night.

• Sleep isn’t just about rest—it's about becoming a better, more aligned version of yourself.
  

Websites/Social Media Links:

Dr. Peter’s Website
Follow Dr. Peter on Instagram
Check out Neck Nest here

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 334 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Peter Martone. Dr. Martone is an educator injury prevention specialist and patient care health practitioner who has been focused on improving patients biomechanics for over 25 years. During his private practice as a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, Dr.

  Martone always believed that the structure of your spine affects the function of the central nervous system, and this interference is at the root cause of most of the chronic problems people face. Dr. Martone now uses this principle as the cornerstone to help people get WAY better sleep. His techniques have been featured on C-B-S-N-B-C, Fox News and over 50 international podcasts.

  He currently travels the country teaching people how to regain their health in the bed by getting [00:01:00] way better sleep. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Marone. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to dive in.

  Michelle Oravitz: Me too. So I'm really intrigued. We have not had a chiropractor yet on the show. However I love chiropractic work and I also believe. That it can help a lot with the nervous system. And I often talk about the nervous system and how that impacts fertility. So I'm really excited to have this conversation.

  And before we get started, I would love for you to give us a bit about your background and how you got into the work that you do, and especially when it comes to [00:02:00] sleep. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Wow. That's like a, it's a big zigzag. A lot 

  Michelle Oravitz: It always is. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: we 

  Michelle Oravitz: It always 

  Dr. Peter Martone: wait. I never thought up. I never like, woke up one day and said, oh, you know what? I'm gonna be in the most exciting field of my life. I'm gonna be in the sleep industry. Like, it's so, it was like so boring. But you know, it, so what I was, I'm a chiropractor, I'm an exercise physiologist, a nutritionist.

  I've always loved the to help people. Improve their function and quality of life by changing their lifestyle. So I was, I was, I was big on helping people, what's called balance, the autonomic nerve nervous system. So there's, in our, in our system, we have organs and our organs are typically not controlled by like the conscious nerves that controlled by like autopilot stuff, which is the sympathetics and the parasympathetics.

  So what I found a long time ago is that most people when they have chronic illness or dysfunction. They have an imbalance within that autonomic nervous system. So I [00:03:00] spent a good part of my first 15 years in practice helping people balance their autonomic nervous system until finally, and I always had bad back, which isn't really what brought me to chiropractic. What brought me to chiropractic is I got adjusted once and my stomach problem went away, and, and I'm like. I'm a chiropractor, I have a bad spine, and I was in a little bit of an injury mountain biking, and I finally herniated my disc.

  So I was in the emergency room. I'm sitting there saying, how can I come to this? I've been helping people with back pain and wellness, and I'm now hooked up on Dilaudid because I'm in the emergency room because I'm, I was just, my back finally failed. And in your own brain? at a subconscious level, I felt like I was a failure because I'm like, how can.

  I not help myself, so not a really good place to be. And then, so out of big lows, a lot of times you can learn from those. And, and I have a very [00:04:00] competitive mind, so I'm like, I gotta figure this out. I have to figure out why I had disc issues and, back problems. So I started reviewing x-rays. I reviewed 3000 x-rays and I found a pattern.

  And that pattern was I had loss of cervical curve in my neck. And, and due to an adaptation, which I found is that it, it adapts with a, what's called a SOAs, major muscle spasm in your lower back, and the SOAs attaches directly to a disc. So I'm like, holy Mac, maybe I had a neck issue, no pain in my neck.

  Maybe I had neck issue all this time, and it was messing with my lower back. So I'm like, well, how do I fix that? I've been getting adjusted. I'm like, the only time I can do it is a one third of my life. I ba basically do nothing and that's sleeping. So I started to cha, I was always a side sleeper. I curled up in a ball and my back was always twisted.

  I had shoulder issues and I'm like, you know what? I bet you it's alignment when I'm sleeping. So I started [00:05:00] to put pillows under my neck and I started to force myself to sleep in a specific position, which we now call the corrective sleeping position. Then once I started to. Have my patients sleep in those positions.

  Now, their chronic issues I've been dealing with, they're needing me so much less because their body's healing really at night while they sleep, which now, hence now another 10 years later. I am in the sleep industry after 25 years of zigzag, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. And so how have you noticed that impact? Well, actually let's take it back to like why chiropractic works, not just for the spine. I think people think, just like you said, you went for for back pain or for the stomach pain, or you ended up getting your stomach issues resolved. People don't, may not realize that chiropractic work.

  Can impact [00:06:00] internal organs, systems and other things other than just your back. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. So let's look at, so this is gonna be a really different way for people to think, okay, but I'm going to make it and break it down into a very simple analogy. If you go to into a room and there are lights in the room, and then you take the dimmer switch and you dim the switch down to 50%. Somebody walks into this room, they're like, wow, it's really, it's not light in this room.

  Now what you would do is you go to the Dimmi switch and you turn it up. Well, now in our current paradigm, people don't even look at the dimmi switch as the problem. They look at the light bulb, which is the organ. Nobody looking at the nervous system going to that organ. They all look at the organ. So they'll put new bulbs in there.

  They'll put a transformer in there that puts more energy at the bulb when. The pressure, the, the, the li the, the dim switch being down is an issue. [00:07:00] So the spine is basically your fuse panel to the body and, and it's set up where these nerves come out of these holes in the spine. And if the spine's out of alignment or your hips out of alignment or your neck's out of alignment and you have these curves, you're putting pressure on a nerve.

  There's research that's been done. Pressure equal to the weight of a quarter on a nerve will cause a nerve to malfunction by 60%, leaving it only with 40% function. So think about that. If the nerve is only functioning at 40%, how can the organ be healthy? And nobody on the planet looks at that as cause of disease, except chiropractic.

  Everybody looks at it like, oh, you just get your spine adjusted 'cause you're in pain. I was never in the industry for pain. And I tell my patients, listen, I'm a little different. I said, look, I wanna help you with the pain, but if you are walking with one shoe on and one shoe off, you're gonna have back pain.

  If I just focus on [00:08:00] your back and I don't create it, don't fix the imbalance, then you're just gonna be dependent on what I do. And that's the same thing. Now, when we help our clients with chronic illness and fertility and breathing issues and digestion issues, the first thing we do is align the spine, turn up the dimmer switch.

  Then we see what happens. Internal organs.

  Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And so what I know that obviously. Because I know in Chinese medicine there's so many different reasons that cause one thing, so we look at the root cause for fertility conditions. What have you seen so far? I. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: That is so great. So that's a great question. Now when within our sleep system we the, the, I guess you can say the crust. That, that connects all the, all the other, like everybody give anything that most of the experts tell you, you can Google, right? Oh yeah. Room temperature and beds and all this stuff.

  It's all [00:09:00] Googleable. But the crust that holds all of the, be the missing pieces, the crust, and that's, we live our life through our nervous system and everything we say, do function, feel, happens through that system. So when you look at fertility, don't look at it as the infertility, as the issue. That's the outcome.

  Look at it as. What controls fertility? People would say hormones, right? What controls hormones? Nervous system. Okay. What specific nervous system? That nervous system is called the parasympathetic nervous system. The parasympathetic nervous system is your thrive nervous system verse, your survive nervous system, which is your sympathetics.

  So you can either run from a tiger and you're in survive 'cause your body needs to get away from it. You can sleep and thrive. So our bodies thrive at night and survive during the day. So it needs to be a balance. The three systems that are controlled by your Thrive system. And when you have infertility, you have [00:10:00] an issue with all three of these systems.

  It's immune system, it's digestive system. It's reproductive system, so anybody that has an issue with one or of them has an issue with all three of them because you have an issue with parasympathetic inhibition. So, so it's not that you're just all sympathetic dominant because you're, you know, you're, you're super excited, you're inhibited because you're dimmer switch is down 50% and nobody's addressing it.

  So most of the time what we see with our, our patients that have infertility, they have issues at the atlas, which is right at the brainstem, and it's due to loss of function there, or it's down in the Coio plexus, which is in the, which is in the, in the, in the coic, which is in the pelvis. So a lot of times it's pain associated, but there's also digestion issues.

  There's eczema, there's skin issues, there's all of these other issues. But all, all that's telling us is the nervous system imbalance.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. It's interesting that you pointed [00:11:00] behind the ears because that's where you can stimulate the vagus nerve. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Correct. That's, that is the reason why, 'cause it's true to the carotid sheath. There's three nerves that go through there. It's the vagus, the glossopharyngeal, and the spinal accessories. So, lot, lot of times if, if a, a woman has infertility, she has definitely a loss of cervical curve, but. Her hands might fall asleep or she has a thyroid issue also because of that forward posture, or she gets reflux because of the upper portion of the stomach is also addressed by the carina, which is, you know, the cough reflux

  Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And do you see this for men? Men as well? 

  Dr. Peter Martone: I do, but a different manifestation of symptomatology. A lot of times that's gonna be a low testosterone. That's gonna be like especially with men with the prostate is a, is a big issue at that area, but men, women, some, a lot of times will have it. We're, we're seeing it now more than ever in women.

  I have my own theories on it, actually. I believe it's covid [00:12:00] vaccine, but they we're seeing a lot of heart palpitations, so we're seeing a lot of imbalance within the arrhythmia of the heart. That's why I am I have these rings on. I always measure my heart rate variability and that's what 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh yeah. I love that. The HeartMath. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: clients. Yeah, absolutely.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so, so talk about that. I talk about it a lot too, but I always like to get different perspectives. 'cause I feel like even if it's the same topic, if somebody else talks about it, you might get something different. So, 

  Dr. Peter Martone: This is so great. So the, so just to understand what heart rate variability is, is your heart needs to beat. And when you're running from a tiger, your body wants a very rhythmic beat so that the muscle in the brain can really consistently know the amount of sugar that the organs are getting, right? So the, so when you're sympathetic dominant, which means you're in survival, you have a very rhythmic heart rate, which means if you, let's say, have a a heartbeat of 60 beats per minute, every second you have a beat.

  And that's what [00:13:00] people think is good. That is really bad to have that chronically because you put the same stress on the heart and the heart will fail. So when you're, when you're in thrive or you're parasympathetically dominant, your body's ready for anything. So the heart rate is very in irregular interval.

  So instead of every second, maybe it's 0.75 seconds. Then the next one is 1.1 second. Then the next one's 0.5 seconds. Then the next one's 0.8 seconds. So it's done.

  So you're, you're spreading the stress around the heart, which is a very healthy thing to do for the heart. But what that's telling us is when you are, when your heart rate variability is high, your parasympathetic dominant. When your heart rate variability is low, you're sympathetic dominant. So most people that have dysfunction, especially in the, in the autonomic nervous system or in the parasympathetic nervous system like fertility, they're going to have low HRV readings because they're going to be [00:14:00] sympathetic dominant.

  Whether it's due to parasympathetic inhibition because you're, you're turning, you're putting pressure at the brainstem on the vagus nerve, or it's due to you just so stressed that you never turn this on into weak muscle, whether it is, you can analyze that through these trackers and then, and then we can then, let's say meditate and then connect the subconscious brain to a scent every time you meditate and then take a heart rate variability reading.

  Then know what improves your high rate variability during the day, then connect you to a scent any other time. That's a scent. So when you smell the scent, your HRV comes down and then you can start to retrain the 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's an association. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting 'cause I've said that before. You know, that's what in India they used to put the incense on during meditation. So immediately when you smell it, it puts you in that state so that it's quicker to get into a deeper state of meditation. And it's kind of [00:15:00] interesting how really the heart becomes so adaptive when we're in this rest and digest mode.

  The parasympathetic. And it's also more creative in a sense because it's not, it doesn't act predictably. It's creative based on the needs,

  And that's 

  Dr. Peter Martone: becomes creative when 

  Michelle Oravitz: and your body becomes creative, 

  Dr. Peter Martone: then yeah, the mind becomes creative because you're taking the blood from the, what I call the immature, ignorant child brain, right? Or the Yeah, the, the, the, the 

  Michelle Oravitz: reptilian 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Reptilian brain. And it starts to transfer it to where really, where you can get true inspiration and innovation in, in, in, in that, in the back portion of the brain.

  So you can, you can start to think better and consequently. You, we, my, my daughter's now working on one of my companies and she's like, dad, I don't care what's mindset mastery? Because we have five core elements of sleep. I'm like, honey, mind [00:16:00] mindset mastery is like everything, right? If you, if you can master your thoughts, remember thoughts, create an adaptation within the nervous system.

  So if you want to. Be sympathetic, dominant, fair anxiety, financial stress, relationship, stress, hate, envy. Those are sympathetic emotions. If you want parasympathetic emotions, focus on gratitude, love, caring, prayer. Those are parasympathetic emotions. So if you can master the mind and focus the thought, which you can.

  Then you can focus the neurology, which is the real step in bringing back control in chronic illness.

  Michelle Oravitz: So fascinating. I love this topic and I love how you could look at it in so many different ways, but there's so many different schools of thought and they all kind of point to the same thing, even like ancient. Teachings and then now some of the current [00:17:00] research that's coming out. And it's fascinating because it really is something that can be measured, like you said, with the heart rate variability and also the heart brain coherence, and that they do actually communicate, you know, there's a communication between the two and the fact that people do have a choice in this, I think that that is often missed.

  I think that people don't realize that they actually have a choice. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, that is a great. Way to say it, right? You do have a choice. And, and like I told my daughter, I'm like, you have a choice on what to think, right? And, and, and, and what we focus on is what we become. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: When you are looking like, think about this. So I'm not, we haven't even talked about sleep.

  I've only talked about my intention. My intention is balance, the autonomic nervous system and health. Sleep is, you can't just put your head on a pillow. Buy. Buy a new what? Buy a new pillow. Buy a new [00:18:00] bed, buy a new sleep supplement and get better sleep. So what we talk about is who do you have to become to do what you need to do during the day?

  And then sleep is a byproduct of living a healthy life in our intention is everything. Our intention is balance in the nervous system. Yes, I wanna help you sleep, but I didn't enter the sleep industry to make you a better sleeper. I'm there now. I entered the sleep industry to allow you to become a healthier individual.

  So who are you when you're waking up? I want that to be a better version of you, A more energetic version of you. So we have this animal sleep avatar test that we have people take. It's a free test. And what animal do you sleep like? And then based on what animal you sleep, like I can give you. The tips specific to how you sleep and tell you how you need to fall asleep because each animal needs to fall asleep differently.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's fascinating. That's so, so I'd love to hear how you approach sleep altogether, like how [00:19:00] your method works to doing that. You'd mentioned obviously figuring out really how you sleep, what type of animal but how do you really help people? What are the different steps you take them through? 

  Dr. Peter Martone: So the, the, so think about, think about the, let, let's look at sleep as an analogy. This is a analogy that we're actually putting into our way Better Sleep program now is think about it as a, a battery charger. Okay? First thing you do with the battery charger or a charger is you have set up. So first have to set it all up, plug it in.

  You have to, you know, do a whole bunch of stuff to set up. Set up is how you fall asleep. Okay? I have three steps. It's called the triune of sleep, so we put people to sleep. Then we have the five core elements of sleep, which is when you're sleeping, are you waking up refreshed? How much. Is your energy being recharged?

  Are you only recharge it from, you know, zero to 25%, [00:20:00] 25 to 50%, 50 to 75? Or are you waking up like me? You are freaking ready for the day because your battery is so full. So most of the time where, where it, it's too complicated to dive into the five core elements 'cause there's just so much. That you have to do.

  It's, it's, it's, it's be, do, have, it's changing your life, eating right, being fit, and thinking well. So, so we, we have different roadmaps on every month. We change a different lifestyle habit to be, make somebody become healthier and then a better sleeper. But I think really where, where the most applicable advice I can give you right now is the setup in talking about what we call the triune of sleep.

  This is what 99% of the people on the planet get wrong. And this is why really my first step was figuring out the triune. And then the other step, you know, is different. So the triune of sleep is [00:21:00] this. You have three things at play when you need, when you're falling asleep, you have the body, the need, the needs of these three things, the needs of the body.

  The needs of the subconscious brain and then the needs of the conscious brain. Okay? The body wants alignment. It just doesn't want to be in pain. It just, it needs to be in a pain-free situation. The average person tosses and turns 20 to 40 times a night because the body's in pain. That's it. That's why we toss and turn, so.

  The next thing is the subconscious brain. The subconscious control sleep. The body pain will interfere with sleep or the subconscious control, sleep, the subconscious need. Safety. The sub body just wants to feel safe and protected. I grew up in Malden, Massachusetts and it was on a busy street, and every once in a [00:22:00] while the kids would bang on my window to play a prank.

  I was on the front, front porch, so I thought when I went to sleep I was going to get abducted every single night. So the only reason I could, I would be able to fall asleep is I'd have to put all my stuffed animals around me. I'd curl up in a ball to feel safe, then I would be able to fall asleep. So think about that.

  When you put your kids to sleep, there's subconscious need for sleep, and the reason why they wanna sleep with you is safety. And now the. The conscious brain, it's where everything screws up. It's like, oh my God, I wanna feel comfortable. You're not comfortable 'cause the body isn't comfortable. What you mistake for comfort is safety for the con subconscious brain.

  So the conscious brain screws everything up. So we have a whole host of things that we do to get people mindset mastery, to get them out of their consciousness, and we can go over some of those. So to set the try put, most people put themselves to sleep with their conscious brain thinking they're comfortable.

  We want to [00:23:00] reverse the triune, put the body in an aligned position. I, I'll show you that in a second. It's called the corrective sleeping position. This position inherently is unsafe for the subconscious brain. That is where people take an animal sleep avatar test to develop to, to identify the amount of safety that needs to be created by each avatar.

  So you have a gorilla and armadillo and an ostrich. Ostrich, it wants to stick its head under the ground. Right. It is so timid. You know, that's where abuse relationships, those are timid, timid people that need so much safety created. You know, when you sleep, it's gonna be very difficult to get them to sleep in a line position.

  Then you have the armadillos, which are like 60% of the population. They curl, they, they, they need safety, but they curl up in balls. They, they like to have their, you know, on their side with that pressure on their 

  Michelle Oravitz: That's me. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: And then I can tell 'cause your head's tilted [00:24:00] and then, and then 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, is it 

  Dr. Peter Martone: it is, and then when, and then the gorillas, they can, you know, they can fall asleep anywhere.

  So, so depending on what avatar you are, then we give you advice and tips based on your avatar to 

  Michelle Oravitz: husband's a gorilla 

  Dr. Peter Martone: yeah. Right. 

  Michelle Oravitz: anywhere 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: with his mouth open. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: And then and then, and, and then, and then from there, then we teach you to, to shut down the conscious brain.

  Michelle Oravitz: Got it. That's interesting. So what's the proper position? 

  Dr. Peter Martone: All right. Is this, is this on video? 

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, it is for some people 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. So then what you'll do is 

  Michelle Oravitz: you guys could check, check it out on YouTube if you wanna check this out. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: and then you explain what I'm doing. Okay. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Alright, so the position is typically, hold on, I gotta, I don't, I've shorted an out outline. Alright, I'll 

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay. He's moving away from his mic, so I'll have [00:25:00] to explain. I. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. All what I have right now is I have a a neck nest. That's the pillow we created, but you can do this with a soft down pillow or, and, or, you know, any type of 

  Michelle Oravitz: so he's got basically a pillow.

  that looks like it's gonna support his neck, Right? 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yep. So the one thing with sleep is, or, or anytime you support something in the body, you weaken it. I, that's why, you know, sneakers or art supports, it weakens the foot. Back support weakens the back chair. Support weakens the back. A pillow defined as a support for your head. Anytime you support your head, you weaken the cervical curve.

  So what you wanna do is you wanna support the neck, but let let the head hang off the back of the pillow so it's not supported 

  Michelle Oravitz: So basically just have a pillow for your neck. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: And then you don't want the head supported because the weight of [00:26:00] your head will cause a, a sense of distraction. And that distraction will reinforce the curve in the neck, aligning it, improving vagal tone, improving the function of the vagus nerve.

  So just by sleeping in this position, you're gonna improve higher rate variability by 10 to 30%.

  Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. Okay, so he's basically laying on his back and he is got something that looks like a bolster, but it's soft and it surrounds his neck. He put, he has it supporting his neck and it surrounds on the side, and then his head is not supported behind it. It's just laying back. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. And that's, that's the design that we created with the Neck Nest. So I'll, this is, so I'll show you now how to do it with like a sound. It would be. It has to be a soft, soft pillow. This is what I used before we created the ness. So I, I would put pillows on their edges [00:27:00] and see a pillow is support for your head.

  You do not wanna support your head when you're sleeping on your back. You want to support your neck and allow the head to hang off the back.

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay,

  so now he's using it with a pillow, but having the pillow on its side, so it's basically not laying flat and it's a very soft pillow, so he's able to adjust it. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: of your head is unsupported. That is really, really, really important.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. I'm gonna try that. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: It's, 

  Michelle Oravitz: I'm gonna try that. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: That's awesome. 

  Michelle Oravitz: So you gotta train yourself to be a back sleeper. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. Well, you have to train yourself to fall asleep in that position. Remember, when you are trying to start to get to that type of mindset where you gotta be a back sleeper, you're not in control. All you have to train yourself to do is fall asleep in that [00:28:00] position and go take your animal avatar test, and then it'll tell you how to, how you need to create safety to start in that position because you won't be able to shut off the brain.

  Actually, you know what? Let me give you another tip. Because this is important. If you're gonna start to fall asleep in this position, a lot of times people will feel like they're falling backwards or they, they, they'll, they'll, they'll lose their breath because their body does not like that extension, because of the vestibular.

  You feel like you're, you know, you, you're, you're, you're, 

  Michelle Oravitz: you're not supported. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Yeah. Your, well, your body your body's brain or valid system doesn't like it. So you can use either a bed wedge or something and sleep slightly sitting up. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: another way that I do this 

  Michelle Oravitz: So he's saying to put

  a bed wedge if that's the case. If it makes you feel uncomfortable Or not safe and supported, you can use a bed wedge. [00:29:00] And then on top of that, use that neck support that he was mentioning before. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: if you don't have a bed wedge, which a lot of people don't, you can put two pillows. See how I have two pillows down there

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. So instead of a bed wedge, you could put two pillows to support your back. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: and then 

  Michelle Oravitz: So that it elevates you 

  Dr. Peter Martone: And then you're sleeping elevated.

  Michelle Oravitz: got it. Yeah. So you could elevate yourself to make That, an easier way to fall asleep. Interesting.

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. that 

  Michelle Oravitz: you got me curious. And that helps your vagus nerve and it helps get you in parasympathetic mode, which helps your hormones. Gets you in creative mode, which of course the physical creativity is your fertility.

  Dr. Peter Martone: And that you can't Google, 

  Michelle Oravitz: No, that's really fascinating. So how can people find this or really find out how [00:30:00] to like learn all of these amazing techniques? 

  Dr. Peter Martone: they can take they can go to Dr. S-L-E-E-P-R-I-G-H-T, that's dr. Sleep right.com. They can take a free animal sleep avatar test and then, then you're in our world, you'll get some you'll get anytime we do like sleep things, you can do that. And then there you can find out about our programs. And then if you wanna dive deeper and, and look into Neck Nest, there's you can get a link for to Neck Nest from there.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. Dr. Peter Marone. This is really, really fascinating. I've never had anybody come on here and talk about it with also, I mean, first of all, talk about this subject, but also with such a unique approach to sleeping. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, thank you. It's we put a lot of, a lot of sleepless nights into it and you know, now it's, it's act two, it's, my mission is to change the way the world sleeps. Helping them get way better sleep. And the way [00:31:00] is awakening the full potential of a well-rested, aligned you and the you's important.

  It's who do you need to become to have the be be the best version of you? And, and it's, it's not, I wanna have it right. I want to have better sleep. Then you're just gonna go from what to what? To what, to what to what. And it's like, who do you need to become to change your mind to be able to get there?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And so really the idea is getting into that state and the new habits will help you stay asleep. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: It's, it's, it's amazing how it, once you start to work on the drills of the 10 minute sleep ritual, which is putting yourself to sleep for the setup. Then the five core elements of what you do during the day is fun because now you're just becoming healthier and 

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. Feel more arrested, 

  Dr. Peter Martone: gonna make you a better sleeper.

  As long as you get the, if you don't plug the, the charger in you, 

  Michelle Oravitz: then you're grumpy. you don't wanna learn anything. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: exactly.[00:32:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: We don't wanna be grumpy, 

  Dr. Peter Martone: No 

  Michelle Oravitz: we wanna feel good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this amazing information. And so, so you gave them the email. Is there, I mean the website, is there any other place that people can find you or learn 

  Dr. Peter Martone: We're, we're on Instagram at Dr. Sleep Wright. We're on TikTok now. We just had one thing go over a million views. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, cool. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: It's. Sleep. Right. So, Dr. Sleep Wright is the is the brand that you'd be able to find me on.

  Michelle Oravitz: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much Dr. Martone for coming on.

  today. This is a great conversation. 

  Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you for having me.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. [00:33:00] 

Ep 333 Unlocking Fertility Through the Ancient Wisdom of Ayurveda

On today’s solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m sharing one of my greatest passions Ayurveda, and how this ancient healing system can deeply support your fertility journey. Ayurveda, which translates to “the study of life,” is a holistic approach that brings harmony to the body, mind, and spirit. In this episode, I’ll walk you through the three doshas Vata, Pitta, and Kapha, and how understanding your unique body type can empower you to make daily choices that support reproductive health and overall well-being.

You’ll learn how to identify your dominant dosha, how to nourish and balance it with specific foods, yoga practices, and self-care rituals, and why Ayurveda is such a powerful and intuitive tool for restoring balance. Whether you’re new to Ayurveda or looking to integrate it more fully into your life, this episode is filled with practical guidance to help you feel more connected, grounded, and supported on your path to fertility.

Key Takeaways: 

• Ayurveda is a holistic science that balances the body, mind, and spirit to promote fertility and overall health.

• There are three primary doshas Vata (air & ether), Pitta (fire & water), and Kapha (earth & water) each with unique physical, emotional, and energetic characteristics.

• Understanding your dosha helps you make personalized lifestyle and nutrition choices that support hormonal balance and reproductive health.

• Vata types benefit from warmth, grounding, and healthy fats; Pitta types thrive on cooling, anti-inflammatory foods; and Kapha types need stimulation, lighter foods, and movement.

• Daily practices like dry brushing, self-massage, and tailored yoga routines can deeply support nervous system regulation and fertility.

• Ayurveda provides intuitive and practical tools you can apply daily to feel more balanced, energised, and connected to your body.
  

✨ Take the Dosha Quiz here to discover your Ayurvedic body type!
 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 333 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today we're diving into the ancient wisdom of Ayurveda and how it can support your fertility journey. Ayurveda is a holistic approach that balances the body, mind, and spirit to optimize overall health as well as reproductive health.

  Today I'm gonna cover a couple of different things that you can do to implement Ayurvedic techniques into your daily life, so stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: So the word Ayurveda actually translates to the study of life.

  Very similar to [00:01:00] Chinese medicine. It looks at the elements in nature ~~and really what helps balance and create,~~ and really what helps create balance in the body and the mind.

  and I will be sharing today how you can apply these concepts in your daily life. So stay tuned.

  So Ayurvedic medicine is how I first got started into natural medicine. It is really, really amazing and it is actually a very nurturing type of medicine. There's a lot of aspects to it, = and one of them being nutrition, the other being herbals. Then also there's a lot of body work and also yoga is considered to be part of Ayurvedic medicine is the physical therapy aspect.

  So there's a lot of massage type therapies. There's also a lot of enemas that people can do with herbal enemas. and cleaning the nose. There's many, many different aspects of Ayurveda and it truly is a science unto itself. Most of my episodes in the past have been really [00:02:00] geared to Chinese medicine, and although they are cousins and there's a lot of shared details on how they work, it is kind of unique and I will say it actually is a little bit more applicable to your daily life than even traditional Chinese medicine, which.

  Many times you have to go in for the acupuncture. You cannot do that for yourself. You could do acupressure. With Ayurveda, they use marma points, so it's kind of very similar. So it's also points, and there are a lot of parallels. So the yoga in Ayurvedic medicine, it could be looked at as the Q go in Chinese medicine.

  So truly with Ayurveda at the core, just like in Chinese medicine, we look at the yin and the yang. And with Ayurvedic medicine we look at the doshas, which are three body types, People could either be one of the body types or they could be two or three altogether.

  So very few times [00:03:00] people are all equally three, which is called trid Doic. Most of the time they're actually two body types together. Very rarely they are just one.

  Ultimately what a person's body type is, is basically containing of elements. So every body type has specific type of elements, and I'm gonna cover all of that.

  And how you balance that is you start to eat, incorporate foods or habits or daily routines. That will balance and support that. And in some cases, when you're working with a practitioner, they'll also share and suggest herbs. But that is something that I recommend working with a practitioner on because even though herbs are natural, they are medicine.

  So it's important to work with somebody who's really familiar with it.

  So, like I mentioned before, with Ayurvedic medicine, there are many different ways to balance [00:04:00] the doshas, and today I'm gonna cover all the different doshas. And also if you would like, I have linked a quiz in the episode notes.

  ~~That will take you to a quiz and that quiz will help you figure out what type of body type you are. ~~And that quiz will help you figure out what dosha type you are. So the first dosha type that I'm gonna talk about is called the Vata Dosha. ~~And the Vata dosha is, ~~and the Vata dosha has two elements, and that is air and ether.

  And the more you hear about this, it might be kind of strange to hear about different elements, but the more you hear about it, it's gonna start feeling very intuitive and it's gonna start making sense. Vata body types are tend to be more thin and they don't really have as much muscle definition unless they're coupled with Pitta, which I'm gonna go over soon.

  They're the type of people that tend to be super, super thin and it's very hard for them to gain weight, They also tend to feel a little more anxious, I guess, less grounded because they don't have a lot of [00:05:00] earth and they're all air and ether. So if you, now, this is where the intuitive part comes in, is when people have too much air and ether.

  There's sort of, I guess that kind of. Saying they're up in the sky or they're a little more creative and they have a higher imagination 'cause they don't really have earth holding them down. So they do tend to be a little more free spirited, but they also tend to be very anxious.

  They also tend to experience more irregularities. And this is, could be irregularities with her menstrual cycle. It could also be irregularities with her diet and. Their ability to digest, so sometimes they're constipated. Most of the time they'll be constipated and they don't have regular bowel movements.

  They could also be regular with their sleep. Their sleep is a little bit more shallow, and so they'll tend to wake up easily and startle easily.

  ~~Vata Dosha, since they're air and ether, they tend to be a little more dry as well. So they will tend to have really dry skin. They'll tend to have very frizzy hair, or at least really dry hair, and they'll tend to be a little more frail. Their energy will spike, but then they get really exhausted. So they don't have as much of that regularity as far as energy as well.~~

  ~~The next body type is called a Pitta dosha body type Dosha, same thing.~~

  ~~a Pitta Doha has fire and water as its elements. Pitta tends to be a little more fiery. And, um, going back to do, let me go back, I'm gonna go back to Vata, Vata, ~~Vata body types or doshas also tend to be more cold. the ether and air, again, they don't [00:06:00] have as much fire, so they tend to be a little more cold in their nature.

  So you'll see a lot of times there'll be kind of a thin look and they'll always have themselves covered.

  So a Pitta Dosha, which is a Pitta body type, is going to have the elements of fire and water. So Pitta body types tend to be a little bit more hot, they'll be a lot more resistant to hot weather and really resistant to hot and humid weather. They tend to have more oily skin.

  They tend to break out a little bit more. They also tend to feel emotions of irritability, whereas Vatas a little more anxious. Uh, PTA types will have more feelings of anger or irritability, and they are a little more explosive. They're super sharp mentally and they're really able to express themselves easily.

  They're type A personalities, really getting things done, very [00:07:00] executive, and they also tend to have a really good muscle build.

  They'll tend to have a little bit more hormonal imbalances when they're imbalanced. and the liver plays a significant role, so the liver also holds onto anger, so they'll tend to kind of have more liver imbalances when it comes to Chinese medicine.

  Pitta since they have so much fire, they do tend to be very passionate people, and you'll see that coming out when they're working. They really, really feel a lot of strong emotions.

  And then the kafa. Dosha is earth and water. So kafa tend to be a little more slow moving. They tend to be a little bit more introverted. They like to sleep and they like, and they feel like they need a lot of sleep in order to get their energy.

  They tend to have a little bit more of a slow metabolism and they will tend to gain a little more weight and it would be harder for them to really take it out and that it'll be harder for them to lose weight. They tend to be a little more [00:08:00] thick boned and kind of bigger. Their hair tends to be a lot more thick and really robust.

  They might have like thick eyebrows and big eyes.

  They could tend to have more slow circulation, excess mucus, or things like PCOS. They might be a little bit more on the insulin resistant side. Chinese medicine, because they don't have a lot of fire, they could be more of the yang deficiency.

  but they do have a tendency to be more stable individuals, so they are really great with relationships and loyalty. They're a little bit more stable, more relaxed, more at ease.

  So based on the body types I just mentioned, food also has elements. So this is where Ayurvedic medicine becomes beautiful and like a symphony. So you basically take the tones that are missing in a person or the elements that are missing in a person, in a person's body type, and you will [00:09:00] prescribe as an Ayurvedic practitioner the different things that they should have, whether it's herbs or food or diet.

  And diet is much easier, obviously, to implement for people figuring out what they need and then becoming more aware of those. So that is why sometimes even reading books on this and really understanding what your body type is can give you a lot of insight on what foods to choose. So since food has elements as well, what we do as practitioners is we tend to find foods that will balance out.

  For example, for Vata body types, since they are air and ether, they will do really well with foods that are a little more warming and that have more earth. So root vegetables would be amazing for Vata body types because they'll bring the energy of Earth and they're a lot more grounding, which is something that batta body types flourish in do really well when they have.

  So consider warm foods, things that are warming [00:10:00] in nature, but also like orange soap and carrots, um, root vegetables, dms, sweet potatoes, things that are growing from the earth and even beets. Those kind of things would be great, but they also need cooked foods because they have so much cold that that can be, you don't want too much raw, because raw tends to have, just like we say in Chinese medicine, raw foods tend to have a cold nature, So it's really important to have more warm cooked foods for Vata body types. They also tend to have more digestive problems, so warm cooked foods is the best to nourish their digestive systems.

  You also wanna consider since they're so dry, to add oils, healthy fats, so think coconuts, avocados, Coconut oil, olive oil, macadamia nuts. All kinds of nuts as long as you're not allergic as also

  Warming herbs such as ginger and [00:11:00] cinnamon.

  And they can also do well with a little bit more sweet and a little more fruits because they tend to be so thin they need that extra nourishment. So things like honey, and they could do really well with bananas or dates. Those are really beneficial foods for Vata.

  So when it comes to Picto Doha, since they have a lot of fire and water, but they're mostly fire, they do not do well with spicy foods. Spicy food can cause them more inflammation in the body, and they do tend to break out in their skin. so spicy food will just irritate that excess fire.

  What's interesting is that pita body types tend to love spicy food, and that is one of the most difficult things to get them off of. They do really well with very cooling foods like cilantro, parsley, cucumbers, and watermelon.

  Other fruits like melons and pears are really good as well. And just think green and blue [00:12:00] foods because they are more cooling in nature. So things except for jalapenos. So consider things like dark leafy greens and broccoli cilantro. Mint as well.

  They would do really well with things like ghee and coconut milk, but not too too much oil because they do tend to have more of that oily nature, which is one of the things that leads to the acne.

  They also do really well with bitter and astringent foods. So dandelion leafs, mung beans are really good. They detoxify the liver and they support their liver as well, and food that is sour in nature as well.

  So the Kafa dosha, just similar to Vata, but very different in the fact that they both don't have a lot of fire. So the Kafa, Vata. So the kafa dosha will tend to do really well with foods that are warming. So [00:13:00] things like soups and stews, but not as much on the earth, so not as many root vegetables. So avoiding potatoes, having more lighter vegetables that have more ether air, such as leafy greens.

  And vegetables. so think even asparagus, spinach, broccoli. Those are really beneficial. But having them cooked and not raw. And then you wanna do lean proteins, chicken, and this is actually for all of them. Lean proteins a bit specifically lean for Kapha. 'cause they tend to have so much earth.

  And then lentils and mung beans would be really beneficial. And then also warming teas, cinnamon cloves, ginger, things that bring in a little more fire will be really good for their digestion. And they are the body type that could. Technically do better with having their breakfast a little later. Whereas most body types we always suggest to do early [00:14:00] breakfast with kafa.

  They can actually afford because their digested, because their digestion is so slow and their metabolism is so slow, they could afford a little more exercise and a little, and they can handle not eating right away when they wake up.

  So some of the implementations that I learned about and suggested for a lot of my patients is to do an AGA massage. So this is actually self anointing, something that you can do and you can use essential oils, and this is a whole other thing which I teach about, but using essential oils could be very similar to what people do with, What Ayurvedic practitioners do with herbs. So certain essential oils are also very therapeutic and you can use cooling ones for Pitta or heating ones for and grounding ones for Vata, and then heating ones and ones that kind of like are a little more light in the tone for Kapha. And many times I would [00:15:00] blend specific ones, put it in a certain oil, and then use that for the.

  Bianca, which is the self anointing or the self massage. And this is something that I often suggest you don't need necessarily if if you don't know as much about the essential oils, then you could just use any moisturizer really. But it's really about activating the body and you can start out before getting in the shower by using a dry brush, which moves the lymph.

  It brings a lot of vitality to the body and this is Tri Doic. So in some cases implementations can help all the doshas, and this is when it's called Tri Dosha, basically helps everybody. So you could use the dry brushing.

  It is a brush that you buy and it is something that you use before you get in the shower on dry skin, and it moves the lymph and it creates a lot of great circulation in the body. And then after the shower, you can use oils to massage your body. General rule [00:16:00] of thumb is to massage from the outside, so like the most distal feet and hands towards the heart.

  So if you're doing it from the feet, you bring it up towards the groin and then you bring this up to the armpits and then you massage your belly and clockwise form and that will get more. And then you can do your lower back. And pretty much anywhere your hands can reach. And this could be a very grounding practice that really supports your nervous system.

  Another thing is yoga and meditation. So for a Vata type, they will tend to do better with things like yin yoga, which is a lot more calming or restorative yoga, which really calms their nervous system and helps them with that tendency to have more anxiety.

  And Pitta types will tend to need more of that power yoga or something that gives them a little challenge, and they'll tend to like that as well. But they could also benefit with something that calms them down as well, just to kind of ease them [00:17:00] after releasing energy through exercise.

  And Kapha will tend to do better with a higher intensity workout. That will definitely stimulate them a little bit more. So even things like hot yoga might tend to benefit a Kapha body type more than a ~~can. A Vata, a~~ Vata body type.

  So if you'd like to find out what your dosha body type is, definitely check out the link that I have

  for the Ayurvedic dosha body type quiz.

  Ayurveda is really an amazing, amazing science, and I absolutely love it. It's something that you can really apply to anything in your life once you know a little more about it. And it's great once you know your body type, because it also explains to you how you feel mentally, and that is really a big part of it.

  So you'll understand why you tend to be a little more anxious, whereas maybe your husband is a little bit more. Stable, relaxed and [00:18:00] doesn't get too moved by too much. So it depends on the body type. And then so it explains really how we are wired and what we could do to counteract and balance that. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for tuning in.

Ep 332 Why Symptoms Are Your Body’s Messages with Katie Beecher

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined once again by Katie Beecher @katiebeecher_medical_intuitive, a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie has a unique ability to create detailed physical, emotional, and spiritual reports and even symbolic paintings using just a person’s name and age.

In this powerful conversation, we dive into how fertility challenges are deeply tied to the body’s messages, unresolved trauma, and even spiritual guidance. Katie shares insight into Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome as a hidden factor in infertility, the emotional layers of miscarriage and loss, and the importance of connecting with spirit babies. We also explore how symptoms are not something to fear—but invitations to tune in and heal.

Whether you're on a fertility journey or simply seeking a deeper connection to your body and intuition, this episode is filled with wisdom and compassion.

Guest Bio:

Katie Beecher @katiebeecher_medical_intuitive, is a licensed professional counselor and renowned medical and emotional intuitive with over 35 years of experience. Known for her unique ability to create detailed wellness reports and symbolic paintings using just a person’s name and age, Katie has been featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Poosh, and Kora Organics. She is also the author of Heal from Within: An Intuitive Guide to Wellness, a practical guide that teaches readers how to access their own intuition, cultivate self-love, and heal holistically. Katie’s work is deeply informed by her personal healing journey from bulimia, Lyme disease, and depression—an experience that began when she courageously sought help as a teenager and has since inspired her life’s mission.


Websites/Social Media Links:

Katie’s Instagram
Katie’s Facebook
Watch her on Youtube
Get her book: Heal From Within: A Guide to Intuitive Wellness
Read here blog: The Common, Frequently Overlooked Disorder That May Connect All of Your Mystery Symptoms

 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Katie Beecher (audio)

  [00:00:00] Episode number 3 32 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Katie Beecher. Katie is a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie is featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Courtney Kardashian's website and Miranda Kerr's Gora Organics blog and has taught a week long workshop.

  At the Omega Institute, she has a unique way of working with clients, creating a detailed, individualized, physical, emotional, and spiritual report and symbolic painting before ever seeing them, talking with them, or seeing a photograph using only their name and age. Katie's first book. Heal from within. An intuitive guide to wellness uses practical tools and techniques Katie uses in her own medical and spiritual intuitive readings.

  The book teaches you to be your own medical intuitive, using [00:01:00] Katie's revolutionary step-by-step process for connecting to intuition and spirit, finding self-love and empowerment as well as to heal physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Heal from within is filled with remarkable stories of healing from her years of experience, as well as her own healing from bulimia, Lyme disease and emotional illness at the age of 16, without telling anyone, including her parents, Katie contacted her pediatrician and began therapy for a severe eating disorder and suicidal depression.

  She has been healed for over 35 years.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility [00:02:00] journey.

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the podcast, Katie. I'm so happy to have you back.

  Katie Beecher: This is a really great topic and I work with it a lot, so it's nice to, uh, podcast.

  Michelle Oravitz: So good. So I remember our first podcast episode. We talked about how about your gift really, and how you also incorporate art, which I thought was so cool.

  Katie Beecher: Yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: and so now since then you've started to see a lot of people. With fertility, like specifically

  fertility people are coming to you like about loss miscarriage and also spirit babies, like future babies and babies who have, yeah.

  Katie Beecher: I mean, I've, I always worked with a little bit but yeah, lately, like the past six months or so, I've really been getting a lot of fertility people. And, and I really, really, my heart goes out to them.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. And I feel like it's kind of like you're being called, you're being summoned.

  Katie Beecher: Yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: it's like a need, it's like a need in that world to really [00:03:00] become a messenger in that space. I wanted to get your thoughts, like, why do you feel like we're living at this time right now?

  Like this time it seems to be more needed than ever. Like the, the fertility space, like there a lot more people are experiencing that. There's a lot more of that happening now, and I wanted to get, get your take on it.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, I mean, I think some of it gets down to just lifestyle changes and people having children getting married later, having children later, you know, decide to do that. And that's kind of. Age isn't necessarily a fertility block as we know, but it definitely can complicate things, you know? So I think that's a piece of it.

  I don't know if there's more stress than in the past. It feels like it,

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah

  Katie Beecher: for sure. So, and we all know that stress plays a big part in it with the cortisol and the, you know, effects on the immune system and, and all those kind of things. So I think that's also it. And [00:04:00] I feel like people have more of a need to communicate with spirit in terms of their own personal relationship with their intuition.

  Their body and a lot of people for various reasons are kind of out of body and,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. It's true.

  Katie Beecher: it's really hard to know what your body needs for fertility or anything else if you are not in it or if you feel like it's your enemy or you can't listen to the signals it gives you in terms of self care, for example.

  You know, so.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I agree. I also like noticed, I remember I read your book and it's, I feel like with you, it's what's cool. What I really like is that. You not only are connected to spirit, which I think that most people who don't really understand it think it's kind of like somewhere up in the clouds or it's not like real, or I not, it's hard to like kind of, look at because it's not something that could be looked at. It's something that's more experienced. But what I find that's interesting about you is that you [00:05:00] really pull it into the body

  Katie Beecher: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: you kind of like the intelligence in your body. It's almost like the, the messages that your body's giving to you. And that could be considered Yeah. Like intuitive, but that's actually like something we all have.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, no, it's true. I try to, you know, make it not woo woo because it's really not, and we all have medical intuition. We use it all the time. Like, you know, if you get a stomach ache, it's, you immediately start thinking. and problem solving. Like, was it something I just ate? Do I need to have crackers?

  Do I need to get some seltzer? Do I, you know, have to, aol, do I need to lay down? Do I need to go to the hospital? So whether it's you or your kids, right? Because we're, we do it for our family members also. so I think it's something that naturally happens. My abilities take it to the, you know, nth degree, which is different, but it doesn't mean that people don't have medical intuitive abilities who don't do what I do.

  Michelle Oravitz: 100%. I think so too. It's, [00:06:00] not I think it's something that we've all been given because we need to have it. We need to know what's going on with our body and we can have it too. It's not something, and I think that sometimes we also give the power away. I.

  To other people to dictate kind of what we should do with our own bodies, and we also overlook our own intuition on what our bodies are telling us because we don't trust that.

  I mean, it really kind of goes on and on.

  Katie Beecher: It, it really does. And I think people, if you have trauma or illness or something, the thought is that these, these feelings in your body, are scary or that there are enemies or we have to fix them and obsess about them. And a, I think a more practical way of looking at it is what is my body telling me?

  What is my intuition telling me? You know, if my chest is tight, that may be my intuition yelling at me that I need to do something different or whatever. Even like anxiety [00:07:00] is so big and I look at anxiety as number one. It's very natural. It's a survival mechanism, right? We've always had it. We've always needed it.

  And it's letting, it's letting you know that something isn't right. So it may be danger or it may be that you're letting people take advantage of you, or not setting boundaries, or that you're not doing self-care or you're doing something against yourself, or it just means something's wrong that we need to take a look at.

  And the more you push it down, the stronger it gets. So then it becomes this big thing in and of itself, you know?

  Michelle Oravitz: But it's actually just trying to guide you. It's kind of trying to get your attention and that's why I always say like symptoms, it's so funny 'cause we get really annoyed with symptoms. But symptoms are our best friends. They're the best things that we could have. It's such a, a, genius design of our bodies

  is to let us know what's going on

  and to guide us.

  It's when we fight with the symptoms, they grow bigger and bigger and then they become like really hard to manage.

  Katie Beecher: And then what happens [00:08:00] is the more we ignore, the worse they get and the more that they need to interfere with our help, our happiness, and our help, and, and it's not even necessarily our faults because. We have a culture of just, you know, grin and bear it, kind of get through it, you know, just don't even, you know, and, and there's something to be said for that as well, but like, you can't ignore what your body is telling you.

  And then also expect to be healthy and happy because you, you're either here or you're out here.

  And if you're out here. It's impossible to be present. Most of us live in between, like I, I live out there too, so, but I be here, you know, in order to function and and help people too.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And then so talk to me about some of the cases that you've seen of late. You know, 'cause you've been talking to more people. I know we were talking before [00:09:00] about a lot of loss, and I think that that's a really important topic because it's so confusing, it's heartbreaking. It's just really hard for people, especially because not a lot of attention goes on that type of loss.

  Like pregnancy loss. It's not given a ceremony. It's not unless the couple decides to do it. So I think that, and then the community, sometimes couples go through it alone, so I think that it's a very unique type of loss in that way. It could be really, really difficult because of that.

  Katie Beecher: like I said, I really feel for people and a lot of it is, things that some, if you haven't been through it, like a miscarriage or, or whatever, or a fertility journey. Right. If you haven't been through that, just like if you haven't been through anything, it can be hard to understand what a person's going through.

  But I was working with somebody recently and she been trying to get pregnant for. I guess like five years now. And she's in her forties. And she's gotten pregnant through [00:10:00] various means, but they were all chemical pregnancies, so they only lasted about a week or so. And then even with the egg retrieval all of her embryos have seemed to have some abnormality, so.

  There's nothing that she can do, you know, in terms of, of fixing that. And then the, the question is like, does that mean that every time I try to get pregnant, there's gonna be something wrong with the baby? And is there something wrong with me and is there something wrong with my body? And just like, and this person, I really feel for her 'cause she's doing it alone.

  She doesn't have a partner, you know, and so there's not even anybody to help. Kind of support you and pick up that slack, you know? And that, that loss just then turns, I think, to sheer terror of, ah, and then

  Michelle Oravitz: right. Every single time you have to go through it, you're, you're not gonna be able to feel safe.

  Katie Beecher: and there's A-P-T-S-D [00:11:00] component to it of, do I get my hopes up? What if I get hurt again? What if I, and, and all of those feelings of grief and loss and everything come back every time you even think about doing it again. You know,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Katie Beecher: and I just, like you said, it's not, and I think things like your show and other things have helped people be able to talk about it more.

  You know, but it is a foreign concept to a lot of people.

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. And so what do you see, do you see like a spiritual component to it? Is there some message or something that they need to like address that

  they feel um, at least to get through it, you know, to get them stronger? Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: so it's, I I pick up a really mixed bag of things. It's not uncommon for me to pick up. Physical or emotional issues that need to be addressed before a healthy pregnancy can take place. And so, things [00:12:00] like Lyme, because Lyme can get passed on, you know, to your kids. And if you have that, there's a lot of reasons why you need to heal as much as possible, you know, before you can have healthy pregnancy.

  What I pick up on a lot is something called ER Danlos syndrome. Have you heard of that before?

  Michelle Oravitz: No.

  Katie Beecher: So Ler Danlos, the, one of the most prominent symptoms of it is hypermobility. So being ultra flexible, but even that can, can be different in every person. But it's a connective tissue disorder and it's collagen and elastin that are always inflamed in your body.

  So you have this ongoing inflammation, but EDS impacts virtually every area of the body.

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Katie Beecher: It's really, really crazy. I have it, my daughter have it has it also. So I feel like a Guinea pig, you know, having, and then I can help a lot more other people, which is. Is good. And then I end up helping a lot of families 'cause it's genetic.

  So people are like, oh, I didn't know I had it. That [00:13:00] sounds like my mom, but that sounds like my sister. Or, you know. But the thing about it is that because your organs can be lax because there's inflammation, because all sorts of things and it screws up your hormones. It a million things that can be a real, a hidden cause of infertility.

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow, that's crazy. 'cause I've never heard about.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, it's not uncommon. It used to be considered a rare disease and there's 13 different types, so all except the most common type are pretty rare. But the most common type is not rare at all. I pick it up all the time and it's been getting more media attention, which is good. Because doctors are really bad at diagnosing it.

  'cause there's all these symptoms and so when you go to a doctor, usually all insurance allows them to pay for, is that one symptom? Like, which is crazy because you need to look at the whole body

  to

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow, that's so crazy. And what could

  you do about it?

  Katie Beecher: So, you can't [00:14:00] cure it, but there's a lot you can do. And so a lot of it is like testing for histamine sensitivities, for example, histamines come into it.

  They do all sorts of different, you know, testing for autoimmune things and just that kind of thing is, is valuable. But what was the most helpful to me in my treatment was getting to work with physical therapists who were specialists in EDS.

  And I was able to see like which parts of my body were really stiff.

  'cause you can be stiff, not just

  flexible, right? It all, it moves around your body all the time. 'cause your tendon ligaments are going like this. And so what was tight? What was loose? What was weak? Was strong. Different sides of the body are different. It ex like it can show if you have a, a loose area, other areas get tight to overcompensate for it.

  So, I've been able to like do things like before I do my pole dancing and aerial arts and stuff like [00:15:00] that. There's certain exercises and things that I need to do in order to not injure myself again. And even things like, it makes you more susceptible to bone density issues, right? Because it does, it can't, you can't hold up your muscles and bones with loose ligaments.

  So there's a lot of things. And in terms of pregnancy, right? People with EDS are more prone to things like placenta previa and all sorts of different complications, even like miscarriages and stuff. Implantation issues, just all kinds of things. Endometriosis, so many things. But during pregnancy, as you probably know, our ligaments and our hips loosen up anyway, right.

  So if the doctor knows that you have EDS, there's things that they can do, exercises they can give you, things that they can do to, you know, watch for. And also like maybe if things are really loose, you might need a a cesarean, you know, before another person would, or [00:16:00] even like. Anesthesia, for example.

  People with EDS, sometimes anesthesia works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works too much. So it's, you know, those kind of things that you can kind of prepare for knowing what conditions people

  Michelle Oravitz: Could it impact like an incompetent cervix?

  That's, uh, so that's another one. You'd get a cerclage to keep it closed.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It affects the whole body, 'cause connected tissues everywhere,

  including the brain.

  Michelle Oravitz: crazy.

  Katie Beecher: It is, it's really, and it's, it's so gratifying to work with people with it who have been told they have everything else, like fibromyalgia. Don't even get me started on that diagnosis. But, you know, that's what comes back a lot because

  they don't know right, what the root causes are.

  And even like, like pots you know, like I said, histamine sensitivities, like there's so many side. Side things that are basically created when we have inflammation and when

  our organs aren't doing what they

  Michelle Oravitz: It can impact your gut. I mean, it [00:17:00] impacts so much.

  Katie Beecher: huge. Yeah. And the earlier you get diagnosed, the better. And my daughter and I have this running joke.

  Oh, it's EDS, you know, but I wasn't diagnosed until my fifties and she got diagnosed when she was 25. so

  Michelle Oravitz: so crazy. Wow. That's actually eyeopening. 'cause it's not something that I've heard. I, because I, I see patients all the time. They're always giving me their doctor's diagnosis. I would've remembered it 'cause it's a very unusual

  Katie Beecher: Right, and there's a spectrum, so it, there's hypermobility and then like everything else, it's a spectrum. So even if you don't have full blown EDS,

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: person, it, it can still affect you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Are there any functional medicine approaches that can help it inflammation?

  Katie Beecher: like definitely, you know, supplements that help with inflammation

  and, you know, natural stuff. There's a a

  Michelle Oravitz: Or even collagen, taking collagen or like bone broth. I don't

  Katie Beecher: yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: are the things that I think off, off

  Katie Beecher: [00:18:00] Yeah. It's kind of a mixed bag because part of it is that we don't process collagen.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, I

  Katie Beecher: Right way. However,

  I find taking collagen very helpful.

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay, got It It could be also, like certain people might benefit, certain people might not. It's kind of like a, it's not a one size fits all, even if you have it.

  Katie Beecher: exactly. And like I use dma. Which is kind of a weird little thing, but I use it for hair growth, but it also is silica, so it helps your bones and, and you know, and then um, there's a supplement I like called Liga plex too, which also helps with adrenals 'cause it messes with your adrenals, messes with your nervous system, the whole whole thing.

  A lot of people with it are neuro neurodivergent links, eating disorders. It's, it's really, wow.

  really, because you don't have a. Sense of your body. So your your proprioception is off and your body image is off, and

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. It's so crazy to me [00:19:00] because um, you know, so many people go through these things and they think it's their fault.

  They don't realize that there is another explanation kind of lurking underneath that is causing them to feel the way they're feeling and they feel the shame and kind of guilt for getting to the place that they're getting to, but they just don't realize why.

  Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: My daughter actually just from me being me, you know, and then the, she has the same and different symptoms, even though we have the same subtype of EDS, but she actually went to her doctor and. Told the doctor all about this stuff and the doctor's like, well, that's too rare. That doesn't, you know, it really even barely ever happens.

  And you know, the, just gave her medical gaslighting. And thankfully I have two stubborn adult children who, you know, she went to somebody else who had more of a background in it. She got officially diagnosed, she went back to that doctor,

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Good for her because sometimes that's so frustrating. Yeah. Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: She was like, uh, this is what I have, and you told me I didn't.

  And like, you really need to know [00:20:00] more so you can help other people. And the

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. Yeah, it's good. It's good. I like it when that happens. 'cause it's not, not to sort of, it's more to, to educate them like I to come back. 'cause patients educate me all the time. Like I think that as doctors, you need to let your patients educate you because that's how you learn, that's why it's called a practice. You have to connect and really listen to your patients if you really wanna become a good practitioner. In general. Yeah,

  Katie Beecher: Yeah. And I think the best practitioners have medical intuitive abilities.

  Michelle Oravitz: true. And I'll be honest, it's interesting because like, I definitely have always been sensitive. I do think that I'm intuitive. I don't like, uh, it's not something that I kind of go forward with, but it's true. Like people that work with me know that, but. I will never override another person's intuition.

  So if somebody tells me they don't feel right about a supplement, even if the textbook tells me that is the perfect supplement for them, I [00:21:00] will say, listen to your body. That's always, just listen to your body, you know best. And I think that, I think that that is just kind of like a do no harm. You have to really respect the person's inner intelligence that they only connect with.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, and teach people how to trust it, like as accurate as my guides are, and it's really amazing. I tell people I don't want. You to trust my intuition over yours. Like I want you to consider what I'm saying, but it doesn't mean that like I wanna teach you how to develop your intuition. I wanna

  teach you how to talk to your spirit

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, that's your book. Your book talked a lot about that.

  It was like empowering your own in innate intuition.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly. And we do need other people. We do. You know, 'cause we have blinders and we have fears and all kinds of stuff that can get in the way in our own agendas and you know.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: But I think when you talk to people and they think about times when they're in, when they trusted their intuition, they can be like, like miraculous things [00:22:00] happened.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's true. It really is true, and sometimes it's interesting. Sometimes in order to trust your intuition, you're actually. Given a very difficult choice to make. You have to like do something that is hard to do or like go against people's opinions or go against what your initial expectation was, but then it becomes so worth it, it it, you start to realize there's a reason for that.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's, if I hadn't gone through some of all of the stuff that I've gone through, I wouldn't have learned how to, you know, develop and trust my intuition and my weird abilities. And it was really through that diversity and. I like to tell people that other people's pain or your own pain might be the greatest gift you've received.

  It doesn't make it any easier, but you know, if you can respond to it and figure out what you need to do to take care of yourself and maybe learn to trust spirit instead of feeling [00:23:00] alone all the time, like. There's so many benefits to it that yeah, even though it's not an exact science and you don't always

  trust it, you

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, everything's so unique. I think that that's like on earth, like every person is so unique. Every path is so unique. Even if you have like this, a similar type of path,

  it's still unique. You were just talking about uh, EDS and how it's unique with every person that has it. And the same thing with fertility.

  So like people going through that, you know, going through those challenges, it's like any kind of challenge in life really. You know, where something is there. To guide you. I've seen it. I've talked to enough people. I've been doing this in, you know, the podcast since 2018. I've talked to enough people to hear stories and how their end, like the end point.

  They always look back and they're like, I wouldn't have changed it. But when they're in it, they're like, I don't want this. But then afterwards they're like, oh, wow. Now I see. It's like hindsight shows [00:24:00] you the reason.

  Katie Beecher: A lot of the time too, I find that people have, who are having fertility issues, they have really difficult people in their lives or they hate their job or something like that. So it requires setting boundaries. Especially if you know, you and your partner don't agree on some really important parenting issues or values or what I see a lot too is people who are concerned about their parents or in-laws.

  And how they're going to be with their children. And so it can be an amazing opportunity to stand up to them and set limits with stuff. Maybe you would've taken from your own parents or an in-law for yourself and you're like, no way you're treating my kids like that. Or saying that around my kids are doing, you know?

  I got a lot ballsier for sure when I had kids and I.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, and then that's really, I think that that's one of the things, [00:25:00] like, I feel like fertility challenges set you up for parenting because you, you start, you start with advocating for yourself, and eventually you're gonna have to make very difficult decisions

  with kids and advocating for them, even in the medical com, you know, system.

  I, I've had it for many things. Doing things that, uh, is a little outside the box. I didn't want fluoride, my kids' teeth, and people look at you sideways, but now it's coming out that it's not good. And not being political, like I'm just saying in general, like in general, it's coming out that fluoride is not good for you and it lowers the IQ of kids.

  It, it is what it is. Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: I know it's, and that's, I know so many challenging things because yes, it benefits teeth, but oh my God, all the other stuff.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And there are other things that can benefit the teeth. Uh, vitamin D. Yeah. So many things. So, so it's kind of like that, like it doesn't [00:26:00] end, you know, these challenges never end. And I think that what you're saying is so important, like really setting boundaries and standing up for what you know to be right. It's really listening to your heart, your integrity, and kind of like staying in your integrity. I feel like that might be difficult at first, but it actually makes your life easier.

  Katie Beecher: Does. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's kind of like the the trick thing that people don't realize.

  Katie Beecher: No, I, I tell people it's like training a dog, like you're setting boundaries with your dog so that they don't, you know, pee in the house or

  they,

  you

  Michelle Oravitz: be happy later.

  Katie Beecher: so, and that's, that's how you parent too, and that's how you deal with, with other people in your life.

  You know, it's not a negative. Maybe it'll make people angry at you.

  You know, maybe temporarily, maybe not, but, oh, well, Yeah. Listen, if people are angry at you, when you're not doing something to intentionally hurt them and you're just kind of speaking your truth, then that's a they problem.

  Oh, it.

  Michelle Oravitz: You know? It's like, you know, you're [00:27:00] not like trying to hurt anybody. You're just speaking your truth. Then that's, you know, you can't, you can't really control that. And I, and I say you have to stand, definitely stand your ground. I agree with you. I mean, that's definitely a big thing. Do you through spirit babies, like get messages for things that they want their future parents to know?

  Katie Beecher: It works a lot of different ways, so, encourage,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. I think that's the theme for today. It's not a one size fits all.

  Katie Beecher: No. I get messages from children who who were not able to come through as healthy pregnancies. That's a good way to put it. Even people, and it's awful. If, if you've had an abortion and now you're trying to get pregnant, there's like can be so much guilt

  Michelle Oravitz: It could be in mind off. I know. I, I've talked to so many people

  Katie Beecher: Right. So I talk to them. I also am able to talk to babies and children who are coming to them. And it's [00:28:00] fascinating because it's, it's often biological children, but sometimes it's also children who are going to come to people through adoption or.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. I just got the chills 'cause it's true. Like it that it's still your child. Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: Like, I see it all the time where there's a mom or a parent, you know, parental group, whatever you wanna call them. And there's this child on the outside and they're not necessarily a baby. And that's often my signal. My guides are like, this person needs to help whoever this is. That's they're gonna connect with whoever this is.

  And it may come to them, they're not expecting, you know, but, and as we know there so many kids who. In need of good parenting and, and foster care system's awful. And, you know, and all those things. and it is very delicate to bring up,

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it's true. It's true because, uh, people have their own plans.[00:29:00]

  Katie Beecher: know, and, and of course they want biological children and of course, you know, so I, I totally get that. But I am honest with people when I do my readings and I'm just like, Hey. This is coming through,

  Michelle Oravitz: I think you have to be

  'cause you're a messenger and you can't change the message

  if that's what it is. And I had Dr. Lisa Miller on who had gone through, actually it was very interesting. She had gone through her fertility, like a fertility challenges and. Went through so

  much to try to conceive and she kept getting this inner voice come to her and say, if you if you can conceive, would you adopt?

  Or something like that. Like, I don't remember the exact sentence, and would you still adopt? And she was like, no, I, I want my own baby. And then it kept coming to her. And then at one point she just happened to be, I think I was staying at a hotel or somewhere where. [00:30:00] There was a program on kids that were orphans, and one of them was inhaling some kind of chemical and said, the reason that he does that is because he doesn't feel love. Like he doesn't have anybody that loves him. And of course, you know, anybody has a heart and hears that

  their heart breaks. But for her it was like this next level of, uh, wow. Like it really shook her. And at that point it was, it. It was her and her husband, and there was a reason why the TV couldn't work and it had to be on that, and they ended up adopting in that.

  And the night before she went to adopt, I think it was outside of the country, she heard the voice again, the question come back to her, would you adopt if you can conceive naturally, would you adopt? She said, absolutely. And that month she also conceived. you know what I mean?

  And it was like those children were supposed to meet and be SI

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle Oravitz: was just [00:31:00] the whole thing. So crazy.

  Katie Beecher: The person um, that I recently worked with, I saw a young boy and an older girl and I said, one of them is not going to come from you. And and I'm like. There's gonna be some child you hear about, or some show is gonna come on, or some program or something you come across on the internet, and it's going to open your eyes or open your heart to the possibility of adoption.

  It doesn't mean that you're not gonna be able to have your own. Biological person too. But yeah, I literally saw them together holding hands and it's, I get a lot of images through my, you know, with my guides. But I totally felt like, you know, she's like, I really don't even wanna go there. I said, I understand and I'm not telling you what to do.

  All I'm saying is look into the possibilities even doing a donor egg, because that might take that fear. of having, you know, a child [00:32:00] that is really disabled or something like that, you know, because, and I'm not, that's not a judgment call. She told me the first time she got pregnant, she had this overwhelming fear that there was something wrong with baby.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it was like that intuition.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly. And then it didn't, it wasn't viable, you know, so it turned out she was right. I

  said, see, so your intuition's working,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. Although I just took this for people listening, just 'cause you have a thought like that doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

  There's a difference between fears and sometimes fears can trick us, but then there's also intuition and that is real. Like it's a, it's a, it feels different.

  Katie Beecher: It's true. And, and especially, I mean, any new mom or anyone, time you, you know, you get pregnant of course. You're like, I would want this to go, well, this

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, you're gonna, you, and sometimes your mind goes into all kinds of places. What if it happens like this? Or that doesn't

  necessarily mean it's your intuition.

  Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah.

  There's a difference between fear and I. Yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's happened to me before. Yeah. No, no. 'cause I know, like my, I, I know myself. Like if I, you know, I'd be like, oh [00:33:00] my God, well if I feel that, does that mean that it's real?

  And, it feels like that. Yeah, for sure. Like when you're actually going through it. But sometimes you do have like this real strong nudge, like knowing which is different. But again, it's harder for people who don't like, do what you do to really distinguish the, Difference. How can people, actually, that's a good question.

  How can people figure out what's my intuition and what's my fear? be a perfect person to ask.

  Katie Beecher: sot book I. And it talks about all of this stuff, but I really, I'm glad that you mentioned it because people will say to me like, how do I know it's my intuition or not just a voice in my head or something I made up right? Or fear or whatever. So what I tell people is, whatever you get when you're communicating with intuition, just allow it to be there.

  Write it down. It's a written technique thing. Write it down. Just allow it to be there without judgment, without fear. And then if something does come through that's scary. Then address [00:34:00] that and just be like, okay, hello voice. You know, what is this thing that I'm really afraid of? Why am I afraid of it?

  What can I do about it? Is this an intuitive feeling or is it just a fear? You know? So that way you are not pushing it down,

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: addressing it.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. Right. That's a good point. 'cause sometimes we'll push it away.

  Katie Beecher: Right. And this way you can problem solve. Like I'm, I'm really afraid you know that there's gonna be something wrong with baby. And then, so that may prompt you to be like, okay, ask your doctor if there are tests that you can do to, you know, so

  Michelle Oravitz: you

  can be proactive. Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: You know, like in my own case, I felt like something was off.

  We had an amniocentesis and it,

  gonna get into this whole thing, but it showed like a potential, really like huge problem, like. Like still a born person. Yeah. It was really, really scary. And the doctor's, like, most of the time we don't even find this this thing with the cerebral spinal fluid, unless there's an autopsy and it [00:35:00] like, doesn't affect most people, but, but it could be worst case scenario.

  So they're like, you can do nothing or whatever. And I'm like, no, I want the amnio. I wanna know, do the genetic testing. And, and it was torture because at that time it took a month. Sales. But I was glad I did 'cause they're like, everything is normal.

  So, yeah. And you could carry that fear or you could be like, I'm gonna do something about it and find

  Michelle Oravitz: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's where you're being guided

  to resolve and that's, that's what I like about how you approach this is because you approach it from a very realistic way where you're actually using action in order to, but also intuition and you're bridging the two.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, I like to give people actionable steps. You know, and okay, yeah, all these things are happening and you can't control them and it feels awful and you don't feel like you have any power, and, but what kind of things can you do? Even if it's just not just, even if it's, you know what? I can't control what's [00:36:00] going on right now, but I need to go take a walk, or I need to go work out, or I need to go do something creative to calm down my nervous system.

  Let out the stress that is an actionable response.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, that is true. And your nervous system. I am obsessed with the nervous system. I talk about it a lot because it's an information, it's an information system. So basically it's an antenna like, and if it's not if it's chaotic, you're not gonna get the message. It's static.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly.

  Michelle Oravitz: You need to regulate it. And that's part of the whole reason why I think stress is, you know, is such a factor.

  We're constantly fight or flight. We need to even it out and kind of take the other, you know, the other balance of rest and digest and kind. I think that when we do that, we're able to get the messages more clearly.

  Katie Beecher: Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Even my, you know, my own self if I'm feeling out of it or whatever, I'm just like, you can't go into your reading list this way. You know, you can't create your report and painting and all that. So you need to go do something to [00:37:00] chill.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: Be in a better space. So yeah, it's not just regular people, it's also people who do this for.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, it's every person. Every person with a nervous system. And it also puts you in a more creative, like when your nervous system is balanced, you're also more creative. You're able to be more creative. And what is fertility? It's your physical body's creativity.

  Katie Beecher: It, it is so true. And our bodies are just so tuned in to what we are thinking and feeling. A, a quickie uterus story this actually happened to me, so going through a bunch of really intense stress with husband's job and stuff like that, so life was really freaking chaotic and I had been painting every day and I'm like.

  I just lost the desire and I don't paint like black daggy things anyway, so I just was like too depressed to do anything. And ended up having really bad abdominal pain for a full year. Really bad ing abdominal pain like in, in bed. [00:38:00] Never knew when it would start and like crazy. 8 million tests of course, and no one could really find anything.

  They did take my appendix out and found a cancerous tumor on my appendix.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh wow.

  Katie Beecher: A rare cancerous tumor. So that obviously needed to come out. Um, So that was a good thing from all this crazy. But ultimately the doctor was finally like, okay, your uterus feels weird. And so I'm like, I, I've had my children.

  Well, I'm not doing this pain anymore. Please just, you know, let's end this. So, woke up from the surgery and she said, we had to take one of your ovaries too. I'm like, okay. And she said, I've never seen this before in anyone. I'm thinking, yeah, it's me. My, my fallopian tube had wrapped around my uterus,

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh my

  God. How can they not see that in the ultrasound?

  Katie Beecher: well, it was adhered to it, and I guess the angles, it

  just

  didn't, didn't show up. But I was like, I know exactly what that is. That is me. I cut off my creativity. I cut off that [00:39:00] connection to myself, so my body responded by literally choking off. Center, which is

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow. Isn't that crazy? That is so crazy. But I see stuff like that a lot. Like, you know, a thyroid or like throat. Conditions. And the people also at the same time have a difficulty expressing themselves to the most pivotal person in their life. And you know, and sometimes just releasing that and all of a sudden tears and things come out, our bodies, you know, it's like that book.

  Uh, your body keeps the score. true.

  Katie Beecher: It, it's, and you know, Carl Young and other people like that have been talking about it for, I don't know, long, long, long time. And now just we're, we're just catching up now.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and it also gives you symbols. It'll give you like

  a reflection of metaphors.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's really fascinating and like, I like to teach people how to talk to your uterus, talk to your eggs. You know, talk to your [00:40:00] hormones, whatever's going on, and treat them as your friends. Not something that you hate or that is broken, or that you have to obsess about or even fix.

  Of course, the goal is to heal. But, and I did this with healing from my eating disorder, was, what do you need from me? Why is this happening?

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: are there things I need to change in my life? What are you trying to tell me? How can I help you heal? So, treat it like a team member

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I

  Katie Beecher: that is in it with you that's helping you make changes rather than feeling like it's foreign

  or you're out of your body.

  You hate your body. It feels

  like

  it's.

  Michelle Oravitz: thing. It's that, that kind of myth of the separation.

  Katie Beecher: Exactly. Exactly. So that takes so much of the anxiety out of it also. 'cause you're like, okay, I do have [00:41:00] some control over this. It's not just this, my body that's doing all these things that I don't want it to do and can't understand. Like

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. It's, it becomes more whole, like you feel more wholeness.

  With that, it becomes more complete. There's more closure too because you're allowing whatever it needs to be expressed to express itself. I remember seeing Dolores Cannon, I'll see sometimes like reels or different things and she was talking about how your cells in your body, like look at you kind of like your executive function as a God and like whatever you say, it's like, oh, that must be true. And that's really how your subconscious mind works and that's why hypnotherapy works because it's kinda those suggestions. Ultimately come from the top. Your conscious mind can make those choices

  and then repeat it, repeat it, repeat it until it gets into the subconscious mind. Your body and your cells are part of that subconscious mind.

  Katie Beecher: It's true. And even just I'll be, you know, freaked [00:42:00] out about something, whatever, before I go to poll and, I'll have a great class burn off all this energy and I'll come back and be like, what was I even thinking about? Or a totally different perspective what was bothering me before. So, so much is our mindset.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it, it really is everything. 'cause it's like how we experience our world and you could take like 10 different people with the same exact life and they'll experience it differently.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, it's, it's so true.

  Um,

  Michelle Oravitz: have choice.

  Katie Beecher: we do, so I'd like to encourage people who are dealing with fertility difficulties to not see their body as the enemy. To be open to all sorts of possibilities. When we release some of that anxiety and stress, we're more creative, like you said. So maybe you, you think of a, a problem solving strategy that no one's brought up before, you know, or that you haven't, [00:43:00] or maybe your body will be like.

  Oh wait. I thought it was this, this, and this, but maybe I need to have my hormones checked, or maybe the testing wasn't accurate or maybe like it just frees you up

  to

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: more answers.

  Michelle Oravitz: I see it a lot of times with my patients. So what you're saying is actually very accurate, like. I think that once people, and I see it also once they do acupuncture or like dirt, certain practices, they'll start to uncover things and they'll get ideas and they're like, oh, that's interesting.

  Somebody said some, something about that. Or they'll listen to a podcast and hear like the guests and they're like, oh my God, I think that that's my route. And it just kind of, they start to align and then find answers. So

  Katie Beecher: I mean, being a control freak, which I'm guilty of you

  Michelle Oravitz: All of

  us.

  Katie Beecher: freakiness. Right. And anxiety just, it interferes more than we realize, and it's almost like people are addicted to anxiety,

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 100%.

  Joe [00:44:00] Depen always talks about that, and it's true, like you could, you could be addicted to stress

  and like the adrenals and the, and you could get addicted to the hormones that anxiety and stress. Give you,

  you just are so used to it that that feels normal. And that's why, you know, abusive relationships you'll tend to gravitate 'cause that feels normal.

  Katie Beecher: And also if you're stressed out and your life is chaotic, it's impossible to think about your own needs and your own goals

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: your own issues. So it's a way of avoidance, like every addiction is, you know, it's a way of avoiding stuff that you need to take care of or that's painful or whatever. So it's really sad that that people sort of.

  Choose that route, when they do have choices, it's not, not making people out to be, you know, that they're, it's their fault or anything. But we do have a lot of choice in, in what we do and how we interact with people. And just setting boundaries or not is a great [00:45:00] example, you know.

  Michelle Oravitz: I agree. I mean, I think that finding, figuring that out and kind of realizing that we actually have so much more power over our lives. I think that that's like that first step of empowerment. You're like, oh, wow. So I think that absolutely, it's true. We do have choice. Yeah.

  Katie Beecher: Right. And even like now, it's a bit of a crazy time. You know, and, and I'm sure a lot of people are feeling like. I can't change a society or, or a government, no matter what side you're on, whatever, you know, but there's too much there and I have no power. And it's, even fertility is just such a huge issue, right?

  But if you start being like, what can I do to take care of myself? What can I do to control my issues or when I feel like I'm spiraling? And then. Maybe I have more power than I think in terms of like getting together with like-minded people or fighting for your issues or you know, [00:46:00] something. So I just, that powerlessness is just such an awful feeling.

  Michelle Oravitz: it is, and it it all has a place too, in

  some weird way to teach us or to bring us back

  to ourselves.

  I always kind of have the belief that all roads lead to the light. ' cause eventually, even if it's like a really tough time, it'll eventually lead you to some kind of light.

  Katie Beecher: That's very true. And also on the subject of control, I like to tell people it's not all or nothing. So it's not like you're in control mode, all obsessed. You know your agenda. And the only alternative is to totally step back and give all that up. The way that I like to describe it is spirit intuition.

  It's there as a helper

  and letting it, like I recognize myself if I'm going too hard on an agenda or forcing something, whatever, and I can just be like, okay, this isn't working. So step back, allow intuition to come into your life [00:47:00] as a protective guiding force, and it tells me when I need to take action and what I need to

  do. It gives me ideas. It helps me problem solve, so I'm not giving up any control. I'm gaining more

  by letting Spirit into my life.

  Michelle Oravitz: I love that. I think that's so important and I, I'm very spirit forward. It's like my, I, I can't do anything without my, I call them like my invisible assistants,

  and I'll tell you like when you lean on them or him, I, you know,

  whatever it is that you feel connected to. I see them as his team, you know, but, but yeah, I, whenever you lean on that intelligence, it always shows up.

  Like it almost always shows up like in incredibly miraculous ways. And I see it with my patients. I see it with my clients. Like that's the crazy thing is like the, the stories that I hear all the time. So it's real, like it's legit. And, uh, I think [00:48:00] it's so cool. So. For people listening now and they're like, okay, I wanna work with Katie. Like how, what kind of offerings do you have

  Katie Beecher: Sure. So I basically do two types of readings. One is what I call a full reading. And it comes with a four page report and an intuitive soul painting

  and.

  Michelle Oravitz: that. I think

  Katie Beecher: I know just with the name and age, I prepare the full report and the painting. I send it to them. We meet for an hour, we discuss everything I've sent and then a million things, more people can ask whatever they want and more stuff comes up.

  And then I also have an offering for just an hour without the report and painting. So it all depends on kind of what people want and what they can afford, and, you know, stuff like that. They're both effective. And I do sometimes offer a 30 minute too, although it's not on my schedule,

  but it's an option.

  So yeah, those are basically the two. And then if people even like, they have questions about what we [00:49:00] talked about, I encourage them to email me after. So it's not just like you have a question, you have to make an appointment after I.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's

  Katie Beecher: Yeah, so because we talk about so much everything, emotional, physical, spiritual, that's impacting you in a positive or negative way, we talk about it.

  So it's a lot. But yeah, it's a pretty amazing process. I also teach people how to connect to their intuition and their bodies during the visit if that's something they wanna do.

  So,

  Michelle Oravitz: And how can people find you?

  Katie Beecher: So the easiest way is my website, katie beecher.com. but

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: Instagram and Facebook and, and all of the

  Michelle Oravitz: I follow your Instagram. I love her Instagram. It's so cool. And I love all the, all the things that you do. Like, uh, all the, what was it? The poll work. I think that's so cool. That's hard. That's not easy. That it, it's not as easy as it looks. I could tell you that. You, you have to use a lot of core.

  Katie Beecher: You use your whole body. It's

  really crazy. And when you have EDS, movement is [00:50:00] one of the most important things you can do. What I do is a bit extreme and I've had injuries because I've dislocated things, but still the best thing I've ever done for myself. And I really encourage movement for stress relief and

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well, good for you. It's amazing. So thank you so much, Katie. This is, uh, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy it, you know, it's really fun and I think it's important too. It's important. I really love talking about connecting to that, like the spirit or energy, you know, I think it's so important.

  I think it's a lost art. In a way, because we've gotten so just into science now we're

  coming back. Now we're bridging it, which I like.

  Katie Beecher: Yeah. No, I agree. I.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Katie Beecher: Because you're letting your guard down in a way,

  Michelle Oravitz: Yep.

  Katie Beecher: you know? But

  Michelle Oravitz: But that's where the power is. That's the portal. All right. Thank you [00:51:00] [00:52:00]

Ep 331 Unlocking Conscious Fertility: The Mind-Body Connection with Lorne Brown

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by fertility expert, acupuncturist, and conscious work practitioner, Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official. Originally a CPA, Lorne’s personal health journey led him to discover the transformative power of Chinese medicine, ultimately changing his career path. Now, as a leader in integrative fertility care and the host of The Conscious Fertility Podcast, Lorne bridges the gap between science and spirituality to help individuals optimize their fertility and overall well-being.

In this episode, Lorne shares how conscious work plays a powerful role in fertility, explaining how subconscious beliefs and emotional resistance can impact reproductive health. He discusses the mind-body connection, the importance of inner healing, and how shifting from stress to flow can create profound changes. Whether you’re on a fertility journey or simply looking to align with your highest self, this conversation is packed with insights on conscious transformation, holistic healing, and the power of perception.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official is a leader in integrative fertility care, blending Chinese medicine, mind-body healing, and cutting-edge therapies. A former Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), his personal health journey led him to acupuncture, herbal medicine, and holistic fertility support.

As the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre, he introduced low-level laser therapy (LLLT) for fertility and pioneered IVF acupuncture in Vancouver. He also created Healthy Seminars, an online education platform, and hosts The Conscious Fertility Podcast, where he explores the intersection of science, consciousness, and reproductive health.


Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Lorne Brown, visit his website here
Follow Lorne Brown on Instagram
Listen to Conscious Fertility Podcast

 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Lorne Brown (audio)

  [00:00:00]

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Lauren.

  Lorne Brown: Hey, Michelle, glad to be together with you over whatever we call this technology. I think yours is the Riverside.

  Yeah, I had a good time interviewing you for my Conscious Fertility podcast, so I'm looking forward to having more conversations with you because that was a lot of fun for me.

  Michelle Oravitz: It was a lot of fun for me too. And I actually it was really, really nice. And to see that we have very similar views just on reality and health and fertility,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it was a lot of fun. And so last week actually for everybody's listening, that was the first time we actually officially met via zoom.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. But we know each other. We're part of the, the ABORM, right? The Acupuncture TCM Reproductive Board of Medicine but yeah, [00:02:00] like the first time you and I had real conversation rather than chat conversation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Which is awesome. I

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it. And I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. I think that we both love the whole bridging of science and spirituality. We're kind of nerds in that department.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: for people listening, I would love if you can introduce yourself. I know we also have, we started out with very different backgrounds. And went into acupuncture, you have like kind of a similar cause you started in accounting, right?

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, so, I am a CPA, so a Certified Professional Accountant back in the day they were called Chartered Accountants in Canada and because of health issues and having such a a response to Chinese medicine in particular eventually I, I was the, one of the controllers and tax guys at this time with ocean spray growers here in B.

  C. and I left that position so I could go back to school and study Chinese medicine as my second career. So that's kind of a little bit about my background. And then eventually

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:03:00] Like what made you think about doing Chinese medicine?

  Lorne Brown: I was ill. I had um, you know, back in the day, this is in the eighties and early nineties. So this Chinese medicine wasn't as available. This was before websites, right? Where you could really see what other people were doing and learning. And so I had severe gut issues, you know, diagnosis IBS, chronic fatigue, candida and you know, I got scoped through all each end and eventually and I tried different Western approaches and eventually it was the herb, Chinese herbal medicine actually that dramatically changed it so much.

  So, I mean, I have some memories. I did a bachelor of science first in math. That was my first thing. Then I went and did accounting in McGill. And and then I went and became a CPA, back then CA. They changed the letters for the designation. And I remember when I was at McGill I was already seeing alternative medicine doctors, in particular Chinese medicine.

  And I remember [00:04:00] s for the first time, how much clarity, because I had, I didn't realize how much brain fog I had.

  And so the clarity I had, I was in the classroom, I just realized how easy things were going in, and I was just remembering things, and I just felt like things were almost in slow motion in a good way, like a professional athlete when they can see the court.

  And physically, I just felt I had so much endurance, so much energy. I was just I felt great. And you know, when you've been feeling poorly for so long, That I thought that was normal.

  And then I got, you know, the illness was so bad while I was early days in my accounting studies at McGill. it interfered with my, my studies.

  It interfered my life. I almost couldn't get outta bed sometimes with the fatigue and the brain fog. And so I had an I had an aunt who was into this stuff. , I was, wasn't right. Remember, it came from Bachelor's Science Math in Duke County. I was, I think I was always open-minded. Look what I'm doing,

  but it wasn't kind of on my radar.

  And she's the one that suggested I see her Chinese herbalist. And you know, I was desperate. I was living in Montreal, Canada. She was living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So [00:05:00] I, I got on a plane and flew to see her person because I wouldn't know who to go see right back then. And you know, through dietary changes and herbal medicine.

  It, it transformed my life and funny story because, you know, I do acupuncture like you do. I always had a fear of needles, right? I never was a big fan of needles. So the first time I was getting acupuncture, the acupuncturist who treated me, I have everybody lying down, but he had me sitting up on the table.

  Right on the treatment table. I was sitting and he's putting these needles in me and he's like, are you okay? I guess he could see I was going a little green

  and I'm trying to be, you know, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Next thing I know flop, I passed out on the table.

  Michelle Oravitz: do.

  Lorne Brown: So.

  Yeah. So now I receive it.

  I love it. Now I give it. But I did. It's a mind over matter, right? I did have that fear of needles, which is why I started with the herbal medicine. Most people like, Oh, I'll do acupuncture, but they maybe have an aversion to the herbs or the taste of the herbs. I was the other way [00:06:00] around. I got introduced to Chinese medicine through the herbal medicine.

  And then I was like, Oh, I'll try the acupuncture too. and, you know, I stuck with it, obviously. And, and eventually went back to school and now I can I receive it and I can give it and I have so much compassion for those who have a fear of needles, but usually if they come in and try it, they realize it doesn't feel like needles that you're getting.

  And now with technology, I have low level laser systems as well. So I can do laser acupuncture for those people that just cannot. Experience acupuncture because it's so stressful for them.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the things or sometimes starting them out with baby needles because the baby needles are really, really, really super thin. You can barely feel it.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah,

  I mean, I, I mean, I just give them the acupuncture for the first time and, and they're nervous. But, you know, they let me put in one needle, then another, then a third. And that's all I'll do for the first visit for people who have a big phobia. But like you and I know, and those that have received it, it's not like getting a [00:07:00] needle at the doctor when you get a shot or blood drawn.

  And so you really, you know, once they're in, it takes like a minute to put them in. Then you go and tell a beautiful rest, la la land for 30 to 45 minutes on the table. So all worth it for most.

  Michelle Oravitz: totally worth it. For sure. So talk about why you got into fertility specifically.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and I'll keep it short, but it was, it was never my intention. My intention was to treat gut issues, digestive issues, because that's what brought me to the medicine. So I thought I'd be, and that's what I set out to do, IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's, colitis, severe bloating, constipation, diarrhea, that kind of stuff is what I thought I would be seeing.

  and I did see a lot of that, and in our medicine, when we treat, we do a very Detailed history and we treat holistically so we can't just focus on the gut health just like for fertility We don't just focus on the women's ovaries, right? We focus holistically and so most people that come to health professionals back then And [00:08:00] I started in 2000 and now still are female And so I'd always do a menstrual history and the the menstrual history is such a great guide for health, right?

  We can get so much information. That's why I prefer treating women over men. I treat both women who are menstruating. Help me diagnose them from a Chinese medicine perspective because I get so much information from their cycle history. And so as I was treating their bloating in their IBS, or they're alternating between, you know, constipation and diarrhea, or even colitis and Crohn's symptoms.

  They noticed their PMS went away, they noticed their menstrual pain went away, their irregular bleeding, the spotting, all those things changed. So I became popular. with women's health in general. So I was just doing women's health. So I was seeing people with perimenopause and menopausal symptoms and with painful periods.

  That was what I was seeing. And back then, again, the web wasn't a popular thing. I was advertising a magazine with a focus in women's health. And this woman who found me was going through an IVF and she was [00:09:00] going to see one of our colleagues, Randine Lewis, in Houston. So I'm in Vancouver and she flew to Houston to see Randine because this was before Zoom.

  And she, Randine told her she needs regular acupuncture at least once a week so she's going to enter herbal medicine. So she has to find somebody local because it wasn't reasonable or cost effective for her to fly weekly to Houston from Vancouver, right? Nobody was focusing on fertility, but she found me women's health.

  So she came to my clinic and told me her story and asked if I'd be willing to follow Randine's acupuncture prescriptions and her herbal suggestions and do that for her in Vancouver. And I kind of said cheek cheekily, but in a funny way, in a cute way, as a non aggressive way. So basically you want me to be like a monkey.

  And put the points where Randine tells you, tells me, and prescribe the herbs where Randine how Randine tells me. She goes, yeah. And I'm like, I'm in. That sounds great. I get to learn from somebody. Because what our audience doesn't know, [00:10:00] Randine was already focusing with fertility. And she had already had this draft book, which came out shortly after, called The Infertility Cure.

  First of many of her books. So, I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to learn from somebody with more experience and, and not have responsibility to the outcome. And so, and then women who are going through IVF and struggling with fertility, they talk and By 2004, I only would take reproductive health issues.

  That was all I would take because I was too busy, and I started hiring associates and training them because I couldn't handle the load myself. Now, here we are recording this in 2025 I have multiple associates in our clinic. And that do focus on fertility and myself personally, I still see a lot of reproductive health.

  But I'm so into the conscious work now. Cause I have low level laser therapy that we use for fertility, but I use that for so many other things. Brain health pain, pain injury. And I do a lot with pure menopausal symptoms. So, I would say, and half my practice, when I look at my [00:11:00] schedule is conscious work.

  Right? Is that mind body work? Half my practice is that. They still get acupuncture and low level laser therapy as part of the treatment but they're coming in with, I'm wanting belief change work. and I do see a lot of reproductive health, but I see everything now. So it's, it's kind of gone full circle.

  Because of the conscious work, because conscious work is my passion. And so whoever comes in the door that's looking for change, they may want a relationship change or want a relationship, job changes, finances. They want a baby, they want a healing. Basically, they want to be happy and they realize they can't get it from the outside.

  So they're looking for help on the inside to have that transformation. And that's why we use it for fertility because it's such a powerful tool when you can heal the mind, the body follows really well.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. No doubt. So talk about the conscious work, specifically. What does it entail? Mm-hmm

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well, I'm trained also as a clinical hypnotherapist, and I've done a lot of what they call energy psychology modalities. So I'm trained in [00:12:00] Psyche, emotional freedom technique, Bankstein healing method, you know, energy type medicine. But from the clinical hypnotherapy perspective and what I would call conscious work, it's inner work.

  It's waking up to your true nature. It's waking up to what some people would call higher self, what they would call consciousness witness consciousness. You'd have to be open and appreciate that there's more to this world than meets the eyes. And so we have a Newtonian science world, what's considered a materialistic world, and those are things that we can kind of measure.

  And then there's the science, the new science called quantum physics. Which understands there's so much more to this reality than what we see and when you have these shifts inside it has your your perception to the world You see it differently and you can think of it as if you live in a building Let's say your your life is a building, you know On the first floor if that's where you live, you're going to have a certain perspective of what your neighborhood is And it's going to be very limited because you can only see from the first floor.

  And as you move up, if the 20 store [00:13:00] building, if you live above 10 and you start to live on the 15th floor, you have a different perspective of what is in your neighborhood than the person who lives on the first floor. And so conscious work is about kind of getting to a different perspective. I we know, you know, through so much more research now that we perceive the world.

  Through the lenses of our subconscious programming, you know, and so how we see the world is through the lens of our subconscious and that subconscious programming is is inherited and imprinted on us inherited like literally few generations before we know this through um, research on Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren.

  And we know this through the study, the cherry blossom study on mice were stressed and traumatized and it got passed down to their grand pups. I won't go into the study because it's

  Michelle Oravitz: and DNA.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, it gets tagged. It's not a genetic mutation, it's a tag. So it can, one generation get tagged, and one generation you can heal it.

  So, you see the world through the lens of your subconscious, and that lens is based on your history. And [00:14:00] so, I heard a teacher of consciousness once say, Reality's white snow, let's pretend that. And then you have red glasses. I have orange glasses. Some of the listeners have blue, green, white, yellow.

  We're all seeing white snow, but we're all experiencing it, perceiving it differently because of our lens. And if we want to have a different experience to see that reality, we got to change our lens.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes.

  Lorne Brown: You know, or we're both fans of Joe Dispenza, right? We both run retreats, and

  Michelle Oravitz: we're Joe Dispenza groupies.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, I like, I like his work.

  I like his retreats and his books. And in his book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I think it's where he said it. I've read all of his books and been to many retreats, but I really liked how he said your personal reality is based on your personality. And you can't have, how do you expect to have a different reality if you bring your current personality into your future?

  You're gonna get the same thing. Right. And so this is about having that shift because, you know, we're going kind of into a rabbit hole here, but if you're open for it,

  Michelle Oravitz: No, I'm totally open for it. And my, my listeners are used [00:15:00] to it,

  Lorne Brown: okay, you know, God, I see they're allowed to, or Gandhi, I've seen this quote attributed to both, but it kind of goes like your beliefs lead to your thoughts, which lead to your feelings, which lead to your actions and behaviors, which lead to your habits. which leads to your destiny. Basically they're saying is your behaviors are always congruent with your beliefs.

  And when they conflict the program, the belief is going to win. And if you do a behavior long enough, it becomes your habit. So it becomes a reality. So we often want to go and work on the outside world. We often want to go work on a behavior, but the behavior stems from a belief or a program often unconscious.

  And so we'll self sabotage ourselves, even though we really want to lose that weight. We go and we diet, we exercise, but that's a behavior. But if you have a program that, you know, I'm not beautiful, right, or I'm not thin enough, then the subconscious wants congruency, and it will find a way to sabotage that.

  [00:16:00] Consciously or unconsciously, it'll happen. And so rather than going to work on the behavior, we go to work on the program, and then it flows down, and the behavior changes naturally.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's so true. And it's almost that, you know, that saying whether you think whether you Think you can or can't

  Lorne Brown: you're

  right. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: it's just a matter of what we choose and I think the key with this is that people don't even realize It's almost like they're so asleep in the matrix

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: is such a great movie, by the way, because of that reason, it really shows us how, if we just knew that that was the case,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: had those beliefs and it impacts our reality, then we would make a difference.

  But I think the problem is, is not even knowing that it's even there.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. Well, of course, and I don't know if the age has changed, but it was my observation that around age 40, people start to realize that they need to do their inner work. the drug doesn't work anymore. The antidepressant isn't working, [00:17:00] or they're in a third relationship. It's not working.

  They change cities. Like it's not working. The changing the outside is only temporary.

  So somewhere around 40, maybe it's younger now cause things seem to be speeding up,

  but around age 40 people come in there and they don't know what they're looking for, but they know they're looking for it. And you and I have language for this, right?

  They're looking for inner work, conscious work, but they kind of know that I know by getting a new relationship, it's not going to help. I got it. Something's not right. about me. And I, you know, I'm going to give an example because the relationship one comes up a lot in my practice when people come and see me.

  and I share this as an example of self sabotaging programs and why I like the conscious work. And we can talk about how this plays with fertility as well and baby manifestation. This actually wasn't my patient, but it was somebody who shared it. And I loved this case so much because it, it really is a great explanation of of belief change.

  So She was around 45. She was a lawyer and she had become aware that she was somehow sabotaging relationships. No matter what [00:18:00] relationship she went in, like she would find some not such great guys in her opinion, but she actually realized she found some good guys too. But for some reason, even she knew there was a button and she, she knew she shouldn't push that button, but she would push the button even in her mind when she knew this isn't going to work out.

  And the, and the relationship would collapse. So at her clinical hypnotherapy session, She got regressed and in this regression, she's experiencing herself as a four year old and she's remembering her mom is making dinner for her and her older sister was around seven and she promises the girls that they get popsicles if they eat all their dinner.

  So her older sister. Eats her dinner fairly quickly and gets a popsicle. And she, she being for living in that theta brainwave living in the moment, it's not eating quickly. And all of a sudden she sees her sister with a popsicle and she goes, I want a popsicle and her mom's tired end of day. And she angrily says, no, you haven't eaten your dinner.

  You don't get your dinner to you. You don't get your popsicle till you finish your [00:19:00] dinner. And it probably wasn't said in a loving way. And this triggered the four year old. And like many four year olds, she got. You know, she had a little four year old temper tantrum, and that set off her mom, and then she got sent off.

  To her room without dinner and without popsicle. And in her story, she's thinking in her dialogue that mommy likes, mommy likes and loves my sister more than me. Mommy doesn't love me. I'm not lovable. And she has this aha moment when that program really started for her. I'm not lovable. Now, remember I said the subconscious and the conscious want congruency.

  The heart and mind want congruency. When it conflicts, the heart, the shen, the subconscious, wins. And so, she would have a relationship, and if this guy was doting and loving her, her subconscious goes, that's not who we are, we're unlovable. And she would Consciously or unconsciously sabotage the relationship.

  So in hypnotherapy work, we're able to bring her 45 year old self back and reparent doing her [00:20:00] child work and shift that. And I often say in my practice, I have a an approach. Notice, accept, choose again. Notice everything is neutral and we give it meaning. Neutral. She just did not get a popsicle. Neutral.

  The meaning she gave it was I'm not lovable, right? And children that are in theta, meaning they're in, they're sponges. They don't have that prefrontal development to discern things. They just take things in and we don't know why. But you know, if you're a product of divorce, which a lot of people are It's usually for the children.

  It does some form of scarring, subconscious scarring, right? Because the children feel like they're responsible. It's their fault. So guilt shows up or shame shows up. Not safe. So all these programs come up and when I distill them down, I see people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I see people that can't afford my services, right?

  And based on what they get paid, right? And when you distill it down, the stories are, can be very different, but when you still it down, it's I'm not enough, right? I'm not lovable. [00:21:00] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not smart enough. It's kind of, I'm not enough when you distill it down, whether you're worth a couple hundred million or whether you're scraping things together.

  So. Notice everything is neutral. We give it meaning. And when we believe in the story, we make it real. So this is not to believe in the story. And that's kind of that materialistic side, right? And we use these tools conscious work to go in and clean up the operating system. And here's an important point I want to share with our listeners is You know, you have this hardware, but the hardware functions depending on the software and I got multiple stories like this, but I'll give you a couple, you know, they have done research on those with multiple personality disorders and depending on the personality, right?

  One will need reading glasses. One will not. One's blood tests will be diabetic and the other one will not. Right?

  I mean.

  Michelle Oravitz: to orange juice.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, when we allergic not so same physical body. So from a journalistic point of view, this makes no sense, but from a quantum perspective, it does. Right. And and we've heard people [00:22:00] with near death experiences.

  I've, I've heard through a colleague of one before, and I just, I'd met one recently, actually, and she's written a book on it, Anita,

  where she, yeah, it's great, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Yeah.

  Lorne Brown: So, you know, her story is she. Developed cancer, funny thing, not so funny, but she always had a fear that she would die and get cancer. So, you know, you got to be careful where you're putting your focus, right?

  She did everything she could to not get cancer. She got cancer and she was ridden with tumors and she's in the hospital and her husband's by her side. And the story goes that she goes unconscious. So they tell her, say goodbye. She, this is it. She's, you know. She's going to die and she's got, they got on some medications too, I believe for pain relief.

  And I think it was a day or two later, she opens her eyes and she has an experience of a near death experience where we won't go into it today where she sees other. Family members are beings, but not the personalities like she just knew who they were, but she realizes she's coming back and she knew she was coming back [00:23:00] different.

  It wasn't like a full lobotomy, like 180 degree turn, but she had a personality change, right? And she knew her cancer is gone. And when she woke up, she tried to convince her husband her cancer was gone. And he's like, you know, no, you know, they got the doctors. She was able to re Share stories of conversations that they had outside when she was in the coma in another room.

  She forbade him. She could,

  you know, she knew what the doctor's shoes look like, right? Everything. So

  Michelle Oravitz: that's that bird's eye view.

  Lorne Brown: she was outside the body,

  but her cancer went away without any medication. After that, she woke up from a coma. And her cancer just resolved herself. So there's that personality. So her personality changed and her physical body changed, right?

  Because of this and going back to our friend Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joseph Dispenza and your listeners check out his book. They're supernatural the placebo and breaking the habit of being yourself. That's a really good one breaking the habit

  Right. It's a good one to start with. He talks about you can use matter to change matter, which can be slow.

  That's for our fertility patients taking supplements. [00:24:00] That's IVF, that's diet matter, change matter, or you can use energy to change matter, which can be spontaneous. Like what happened with Anita, which when her cancer went away, right?

  Is it went away pretty quickly, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: There's people with well, we see it all the time at Joe Dispenza's work stage four cancer. It just, it goes away.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. So that's working with a different, dimension of yourself, right? If you want to speak. So the conscious work that I use is how to tap into that, how to tune into it. And it came from my experience, right? I, I've learned this and developed this from many people I've studied with. And I'm a kinesthetic learning.

  That's learner. That's why I've learned psych KFT, Marissa peers, rapid transformational therapy, Ericksonian The guy just. Love it, right? I think it started from insecurity. Not enough, not smart enough. So I kept on doing things which brought me my success outside, but inside it wasn't enough. So I kept on learning and learning and learning.

  And then eventually, you know, you're brought to your knees, which I was. debilitating anxiety. And I go in and do the [00:25:00] inner work and I have the transformation. And then I'm kind of at peace. Don't feel like I need to do too much. But now there's this new drive, this overflowing, wanted to share. It's a different feeling.

  It's comes from peace. It doesn't exhaust you. Right. And so I think on the outside, if I was looking at me, I looked. Similar as in go, go, go. Always learning, always doing right. But I was coming from fear and lack for many years, my doing and stuff. So my doing just got me more fear and lack because I could never feel that void.

  Now I'm going, going, going, but it's coming from feeling more whole and complete and I'm not attached whether I do it or not, right? I'm not attached to it so much. And but yet I'm still doing it. But now I feel Charged by it.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so great. I mean, don't you see the yin and the yang too, in a lot of this

  Lorne Brown: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: the harmony, the

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and you got to keep going into the end So you then you have the young and it happens, right? So, you know, I go inside I become quiet and and then all of a sudden all this [00:26:00] activity and inspire thought comes through me And then I I want to go in and see if I can manifest it, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And everything kind of goes in pulses, you know, there's a, there's pulses, even with like experiences that we have in life, there's ebbs and flows. I think that we get impatient or we think that it's going to be forever, but nothing lasts forever. It's like the good news and the bad news, nothing lasts forever.

  Lorne Brown: Right? Yeah, it's the good news and the bad news. Yeah, in that sense, don't be attached.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, true.

  Lorne Brown: Which is a practice.

  Michelle Oravitz: it is, and it's something that the ancients have been telling us this whole time. They've told us to go within, they've told us not to be too attached, to learn from nature, to learn from what's around us. to flow, flow with it.

  Lorne Brown: And a tip for our listeners, because again, I teach what I've experienced. Many people may be going, well, I've read these books and I know all this stuff and I haven't had a shift. I was that guy where I had read everything and took courses, but I didn't do the process work. I, I conceptually understood it.

  I could teach it. But I wasn't living it. And it wasn't until I actually did the process work that the [00:27:00] transformation started happening, the awakening started happening. And so that's kind of, you know, with my patients, when I work with them, they want to get in the head and understand, which I love. We got to understand when you understand the why behind it, they say that the how becomes easier.

  The why is, you know, how does it work? And then the how is, what are you going to do? But if it's just an intellectual discussion you'll have a mind shift. But you won't have a trait change. And what's the difference? A mind shift is that temporary, you feel excited, this makes sense. It feels excited, but it's a shift.

  It's like when you pull an elastic band apart, it's neuro elasticity, it stretches out, this feels good. But within an hour or two, or a day or two, it goes back to its normal shape. So you haven't made a neuroplastic change, you just made a mindset shift.

  And if you do that daily, multiple times, it eventually become neuroplastic.

  And what I mean neuroplastic is if you stretch out a piece of soft plastic and you let go, it stays stretched. So that's the trait change.

  So repetition or doing many things that create a mind shift regularly often will give you [00:28:00] neuroplasticity changes, right? That hold becomes a trait. That's that, you know, do certain actions over and over again.

  So that's one way. But then there's other. faster ways to do neuroplastic changes, which doesn't just require repetition. That is one of them, but there's other processes I use. Part of my hypnosis practices and other energy psychology tools is what they're often called now to help make that neuroplastic change, not just from repetition, but from doing these Process work and we call it process work because it's not it's not done.

  It's a it's a bottom up process versus a top down So i'm not a counselor a therapist. That would be somebody who's doing a top down Let's talk about this

  and there's some benefit to it. The clinical hypnotherapist perspective is a bottom up meaning Your tyra box said this once your issues are stuck in your tissues

  So when you have these emotions rarely does somebody say I feel it in my head It does happen once in a while.

  Most people feel it in their throat, in their chest, in their stomach. It's in your cells. And we got science to talk about [00:29:00] how the microbiome changes with stress and emotions.

  Michelle Oravitz: images of people, all people that were angry, all people that were sad. And they would notice that it would light up in certain spots consistently in the body, which is really fascinating. You can probably find it online.

  Lorne Brown: cool. Absolutely.

  And, you know, we know like we got serotonin receptors in the gut. Now the heart's being known as a, as a second brain may have more what the read off of it more than the brain and, and then dispensa and heart math talk about heart brain coherence.

  So we're. You know, I look at it this way is, you know, back in the day of Galileo and Newton, the days when we thought that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat, it was hard for society to shift and science to shift, right?

  Cause everything we understood the way we could look, it was like, no, no, the world's flat. It look at it, you can tell, look, look outside, doesn't look round or look, look, you can tell that. the sun is going around the earth. Look in the sky. It's so obvious. And you [00:30:00] can't tell me the earth is spinning.

  We would feel it, right?

  And now today, most people

  realize that the earth is round, not flat. There are so few flatters out there. They realize the earth is spinning and that the earth goes around the sun. But there's your perception, you know, there's the first floor view. From my view, the sun is going around the earth.

  I see it rise and set, right? I can see it float around. I'm standing still. I'm pretty sure about it, but that's a illusion. It's not a complete correct perception on that first floor when you go to a higher floor. So in this case, when we go into space, We can see that it's actually the earth that goes around the sun and the earth is round.

  And then if we go to a higher floor, we're going to probably get a whole other understanding of what's going on in this human experience and purpose and what's your individual purpose. And people have spoken of it. I haven't tapped into that aspect. I've had those. Non medicated, so non psychedelic experiences where I've tapped into profound peace, where I've tapped into bliss.[00:31:00]

  I've also, through psychedelics, I've only done it once, so I'll never do it again, where I tapped into my shadow, right? Accelerated my journey, but I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, going into my shadow work unprepared.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause if you, you have to be ready for it. That's

  Lorne Brown: I wasn't ready for it. I, I, I cheated. I cheated with psychedelics. And it put me into my shadow grateful now because and here's a litmus test for myself.

  So I share this with the listeners as well. If you. don't like your life now, then I'm pretty sure you're still living in kind of a victim mode. You don't like your past and you'll have all the evidence to say why you don't like it. And if you can love your past, no matter how bad it is, then I know you love your now.

  I know you love your life. Why? Because You realize that who you are today is based on everything that's happened to you and you and because you love where you are today, you would never want to change your past because you love your day. Doesn't mean you want to relive your past, but you're grateful for.

  You don't regret it because you love today. [00:32:00] But if you hate your past, then it's I'm pretty sure you really don't love it. your day. And there are some terrible things that have happened to people. And I've seen people who've had terrible acts done to them. They would never ask to go do it again, like, but they also say, I love my life now.

  And so I wouldn't change anything in my past. So that shows you that's healed, right? That vibration that's healed. And so, because there's only this moment. So I find conscious work powerful when you bring it to reproductive health. I want to quote our Randine Lewis friend who wrote the book, The Infertility Cure, many books, but I remember hearing her talk about when women get into a later stage of their reproductive years, especially into their forties she said, you know, at the beginning, you know, reproduction is, it's a, it's a youth game, Jing, we call it essence Jing, it's the physicality, right?

  You got to have good physicality and it, and that happens with the youth. We see it around us, right? Like, a 90 year old and a 20 year old, the same person or different [00:33:00] physically. But there's something about spiritual maturity and sometimes, and this is where it kind of ties into Dr. Jo Dispenza, matter change matter.

  So that's the physical, the Jing. And then there's energy that can change matter. And that's what we call the Shen, the spirit tapping into that consciousness. And she says, when you're younger, you can be spiritually mature because you have such good Jing, it overrides everything. And so you can be a drug addict.

  And you're 20s and getting pregnant all the time, right?

  Poorly eating, all that stuff. And then if you get into your 40s, the physicality you want, but it's not enough, you need to, as she said, have your shit together. So that's, I'm quoting her.

  And sometimes that's when we see what we call miracles. It overrides the physical.

  And you really need to do that spiritual, the spiritual maturity happens. And so, you know, have both. Add to that her excitement with donor egg back in the day when we were having this conversation was she couldn't wait to meet the Children that were born through donor egg cycles because she [00:34:00] says currently this was way back when in early 2000 people were born with either young mothers, so physically strong, spiritually immature.

  They're in their twenties, early thirties or they're born with women in the early forties. physically not as strong, but spiritually more mature. So they didn't have both. She goes, but with the donor egg cycle, they get the gene from the, the egg. So a physical, physically strong, younger woman, and they are gestated.

  And raised by spiritually mature women. It's going to be the first time where they get both strength from the physical and strength from the spiritual. So she was quite excited. It

  was a different perspective to look at the Dorae. She was like, I wonder what kind of children these are going to be, right?

  So,

  Michelle Oravitz: amazing. And actually it's really interesting. I don't know if you've seen this yourself, but sometimes the donor egg and the child looks like the mother.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, well, not surprising. I, I, I can't quote you on this, but I remember that they've done this in animals where you put him in a different, like, I don't know, [00:35:00] a donkey into a horse or something like, and it comes out looking more like the the mother. Like the, the horse. So, because don't forget you start as, you know, You know, a bunch of cells, right, you know, when you go in and you're grown, so you are influenced because you're, you're taking in in Chinese medicine talks about this, the emotional well being of the mother during pregnancy will impact the nervous system and the emotional personality of that child.

  And so what you're eating and what you're doing is helping grow that child. So we have what we call prenatal Jing, you know, for our listeners. So you get that from the mother, the father, and then. throughout pregnancy. And then postnatal Jing is what you, what happens after you're born. So your diet lifestyle.

  And so everything is impacting you up until you're born. That's what we'd call your genes. And in Chinese medicine called pre pre pregenetic destination, right?

  Prenatal, prenatal essence. I don't know if I said, if I use the right word, prenatal essence or prenatal Jing is what happens. So, yeah, I love [00:36:00] that story that she looked a little bit like the mother, not surprising.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And I've actually seen it because I, one of them she's somebody that I'm friends with on Facebook and she's also been on the podcast, Nancy Weiss. She's a spirit baby medium, is a whole other

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: topic. Right. But she. donor embryos and one of her daughters, she put a side by side picture of herself when she was younger and the daughter, and it was crazy. How similar they looked and then I've heard another story of somebody with freckles that she's had freckles But the mother of the donor did not and her husband did not So she always wanted a child with freckles and sure enough one of them got freckles

  Lorne Brown: Very cute. Yeah,

  And that, there's so much things we don't understand and the donor egg cycle, I don't know if you've seen this, but with my patients, they only have one regret and it's a great regret that I've always heard when I've heard any regrets, I don't hear it often, but I hear it [00:37:00] and they say that the only regret I have is that I didn't do this donor egg cycle sooner because I don't, I realized I could have been with this baby I, I waited, I, you know, cause they're doing other things and understand there's a process to come to this place where you're ready to do donor a.

  But that's a great regret. Meaning they love this baby like from day from day one implantation, right? They have this connection. They're their mother. And and. It's, it's, that's great news, right? Cause so many people understandably have to get their head around about not using their own genetic material, right?

  And when you get there, when you surrender, which is part of conscious work, right? And the resistance drops and you get into flow and receptivity, the experience can be beautiful. And then regardless, even if you don't, when that baby's born, you're like, what the heck? I've been waiting for this forever.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. And that's another thing. So looking at the same thing from different lenses and different perspectives, and then you can kind of think, [00:38:00] okay, I may have wanted it to go this way, but perhaps it can go another way. And I'll still get the end goal, which is really to become a mother.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, that's the end goal. And that's what we want to focus on. And from the conscious work, you know, we, we hear so often in manifestation work and in teachers of consciousness, not to be attached to form an outcome. And I'm a practical guy. So the left brain, my math background, my accounting, I'm, what I would say my feet are on the ground and my header is in the clouds, not just, you know, some people either their head in their clouds.

  So some people in our industry just head in the clouds. So it's hard to bring it to this earth or my old profession as a accountant, the feet are on the ground, right?

  I feel like I'm, I'm doing both of that. ~~And where was I going with this? What were we talking about? You'll have detaching.~~

  Michelle Oravitz: ~~Detaching from the,~~

  Lorne Brown: ~~Thank you.~~

  ~~Thank you, Michelle. There you go. My head went to the clouds. I lost it. Thank you for bringing it down. I appreciate it.~~ So. I want to share this because this worked for me. And again, I often share is, you know, it's easy to say don't attach to form an outcome. That's easy to say you're not the one that has, you want this form an outcome.

  So it's, you can't fool the universe. You can't pretend, right? Really pretend,

  but you can do [00:39:00] practices. And I have found this line and I didn't come up with this. I heard this from somebody else and I was like, brilliant. And it works for me and it's worked for hundreds of other people I've worked with this or something better.

  Yeah. I want this or something better that had such a different vibration to it because you didn't choose your desire So I will never say you can't have you can't want this You can't desire this because you didn't choose it. I I prefer chocolate ice cream over strawberry. I can't tell you why it's just it is I just like I want chocolate ice cream.

  I don't really want strawberry ice cream. It's just What is, and so, but when you have a desperate need for it, that if I can't have this, then you create resistance and that impacts the field and that cannot be healthy. But if you have a desire, you want it, but you also know you're going to be okay, whether you have it or not, that doesn't add resistance to the field.

  And so often we, cause if you get focused on has to be this way, then you're not leaving yourself open to other things that [00:40:00] can bring you that same experience. Right? Because what does the baby bring to you? Right? You know, why do you want the baby? What's it gonna bring? What's gonna be different? What are you gonna experience?

  You know this kind of work, right? Because then you could get little, I call them Drift logs or kisses on the cheek from the universe where you know what it feels like you're practicing what it feels like and it's This or this or something better and then all of a sudden it that same experience comes to you But it's a different manifestation physically.

  So you're like, oh You know getting that feeling and so you're you're starting to get it from other places as well You're experiencing it. And when I say get it from other places I want to use that loosely is you have learned to Elicit that experience inside of you and then you're starting to see it manifested on the outside so because you don't want to have to get it from the outside because again, then you're not whole and complete This whole work is about becoming whole and complete where it's cut.

  You are it's It's you're making it inside of it. You're tapped into a part of yourself higher than I guess the ego self to use that language. And then it becomes fun to [00:41:00] see if you can manifest it on the outside, but you're already experiencing the feeling. Hence it's easy not to be attached because you're already feeling the joy or the love or the nurturing of something else, right?

  And the being of service to something else, you're already bringing up that experience. So you don't need it on the outside, but then all of a sudden you see it on the outside and that just bumps it up a bit. It amplifies it. And so you get, but it's temporary, that amplification. And then when you come back to your set point, that set point is peace and joy anyhow.

  So you're good.

  Michelle Oravitz: So it's unconditional peace and joy. It doesn't have a condition on it. You choose to just have that.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: you can, and I think that that's the big thing is that people don't realize that they can actually do that. They could bring it up through just meditation and different practices that they can bring it up in themselves.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. You tap into that. And I mean, I've, I've had that. I have glimpses. I have experiences of it. And for now the language is I'm, I'm tapping into my true nature and everybody has this true nature, your witness consciousness, your higher self, you want to give it a word. [00:42:00] And. I think we might have talked about this when I interviewed you on the Conscious Fertility podcast, but it's not all positive.

  It feels good. You still get uncomfortable feelings.

  You're just not at the full effect of them. So you experience the sadness. You can experience fear. You can experience guilt or hopelessness, but it moves through you like a song on a radio, 90 seconds, and it passes through you. And then you're back to that peace.

  And So if you're able to not get into the story and you can experience it, you still feel these uncomfortable feelings, but there's a, there's could be an underlying peace or even beauty behind some of those feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them and they just don't last for, for weeks.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well, the untethered soul, I think that was like a big game changer for me, that book

  Lorne Brown: Michael Singer's book. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: Singer, he's amazing. And I think that it really was about like allowing discomfort to happen without judgment, without that kind of good or bad, that neutrality, just kind of allowing it to happen. And I have an [00:43:00] example because I burned myself. I remember it was a Friday night and I was exhausted. I was so tired. I couldn't wait to sleep. And I burned my thumb. was like, man, and it was a stupid thing. Cause I was so tired and I touched something and I knew I shouldn't have done, it was just like, without thinking. And I was like, how am I going to sleep with this burning sensation? It was like the worst feeling ever. You know, it's like when you first burn yourself. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe it was like my higher guidance, something resist the burn. So I was like, okay, let me try this. literally felt, I closed my eyes and like, I imagined myself just kind of going through the fire with my hand and almost. Accepting it, inviting it, allowing it. And literally within five minutes, the burn went away.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, and that's the quantum. That's energy changing matter and you use the awesome word resistance Right resistance is futile to quote the Borg from Star Trek

  Resistance is futile for those Trekkies out there When you add resistance basically you amplify the burn you amplify the [00:44:00] suffering or take from the Buddhist quote pain is inevitable the burn hurts Suffering is optional.

  That's where you amplify and when you can lean into it versus it's counterintuitive because we should run away from it. We think, right? And I had that similar experience in the nineties. I I had read, I read dr joe dispenses book, but I didn't understand it. I kind of read it, but Didn't catch very much of it the first read and one day when I was studying to write the exams to become a chartered accountant, a CPA I had sadness come over me real, and it was a new thing.

  I wasn't something I really experienced this kind of sadness that I could recall. And I don't know why I did this, but there's again, another part of you leading the way here. I decided to, in the middle of the day, I had shared accommodations. I was living with a female and she had Yanni and the Ghetto Blaster.

  Back in the day, it was Ghetto Blasters. with cassettes, maybe CDs. She had some incense burners. So I lit that and there was like lavender rose in it. And I went in the [00:45:00] bath and just decided to experience the sadness. So as I'm listening to the sad music, there's some incense and candle lit in the middle of the day in the bath, hot bath.

  I'm so going into the sadness. Tears are rolling down my eyes. And in a moment I'm in full bliss. Like I'm like bliss. Like. But I I don't do drugs, but what except for that psychedelic experience, what, what a good high would be like, it was like, and honestly, if that's what it feels like, I understand why people would do drugs.

  It was just bliss. And I'm like, you know, try to be sad. Because I was like, this feels great. Can I be sad? I couldn't be sad. And it was only later I had that experience first. And then I read dispenses book. Sorry, not just Ben's, Eckhart Tolle's book, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now is what I meant.

  And the line where he says, you, when you're present, you can't suffer, because when you're regretting the past or fear in the future, you're not in the present.

  But if you're in the present, he says, even sadness can be turned into bliss. And when I read that line in the book, [00:46:00] I had my aha moment because I had that experience. And now the process that I do in my conscious work is about lowering the resistance. Somebody says, what are you doing? You're tuning into your, your wist witness consciousness.

  You mentioned Michael Singer, the untethered soul. He often says he doesn't use tools or do tools, but he kind of does. And and I have a process that I believe brings down the resistance. My experience, people, I've worked with and then you have that flow and receptivity and sometimes I just have peace.

  Maybe it's at, you know, if my, if I'm frustrated or fear, it's a seven out of 10, it'll come down to say a two or one. So peace in an unhappy situation still, right? But peace. So the resistance is low.

  Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: flow in that moment. And it's interesting because I, my litmus test is, are you present? Really? That's the question. I, a lot of people that I work with is, are you present? Like, cause many times when they share things that are uncomfortable for them, they're not really in the present moment.

  They're either [00:47:00] expecting a future or thinking about a past or something that happens. So the present moment's always the antidote. To everything. If we

  Lorne Brown: present. And that's what the mind does. It's the nature of the mind. You can't get mad at the mind for thinking because that's its nature to be like getting upset with water for being wet, right? It's its nature. So you're fighting with reality. However, there's tools to help you get present and these uncomfortable feelings can become portals to presence.

  Right.

  And you're not wallowing them and, and embellishing them, you know, you're not inflating them. You're leaning into them and observing them. So I think what's happening, my experience, my understanding to this point is when we really get practice at noticing and observing them and accepting them, I think we're tuning, we go into present moment, but we do this by tuning into our witness consciousness because the mere fact of witnessing them, not, it shouldn't be this way.

  It's not fair, like getting into the head. But.

  Michelle Oravitz: neutral watcher.

  Lorne Brown: get into the watching, just getting practice at watching, then you [00:48:00] tune into your witness consciousness and that nature of you is peace and joy. So you tune into it. So wherever you put your energy is what's going to grow. So if you believe in the story and you're at the effect of the story, then you're You're unconscious and you're experiencing it.

  You're suffering right now. You've amplified the negative situation if you're able to observe it I'm not saying you'll like it. We're not doing a spiritual bypass here, but getting practice at observing at it I believe you tune into the witness consciousness and It's nature's peace and joy and the metaphor I use for this Michelle is when we so Tell me how this lands for you and I'm curious for your audience because this for me was my another aha moment just like what's going on here because I'm having these experiences and I want to have language to share with the people I work with.

  So if you buy an apple, you have to consciously you Michelle ego Michelle has to pick up the apple and chew it. But after that, Michelle, you're not going release salivary enzymes in your mouth. Like I got to do that. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. I'm getting acid into [00:49:00] my stomach now. Okay, I cannot.

  Walk up the stairs because my intestines are now absorbing the all these B vitamins or same thing when you sleep when you go to sleep You're unconscious. You're not breathing yourself. You're not pumping your blood Or pumping your heart circulating your blood your autonomic nervous system is doing this another part your subconscious program is doing this, right?

  The autonomic nervous system. Well same thing. I don't believe for me that I let go of these programs or emotions anymore. Not Lauren Brown ego. Just like I don't release the salivary enzyme. All I have, I believe it's my witness consciousness does this. It's what's metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings and old programs.

  And how do we do this? Well, first you have to make the unconscious conscious. So that's my notice step. Everything is neutral and then we give it meaning. Don't believe in the story. When you do, you make it real. So don't take it personally. Then I have multiple tools during the accepting part to surrender to what is, not fight it.

  Doesn't mean you're resigned to it. Doesn't mean you like it. We're just accepting that this is how I feel right now. And you [00:50:00] accept it and you start to observe it and get really, this is a skill. You get practice at observing it.

  And by that observing, you tune into the witness consciousness and it is what lets go the feelings.

  It's what metabolizes it.

  So, so.

  It's the intelligence. And so give it a conscious divine. I don't know if it's a part of me or part. I don't know. All I know is Lauren Brown is not doing it. Just like Lauren Brown gets to choose to bite the apple. Lauren Brown gets to choose to notice, not take it personally and observe it.

  That's all I do.

  The digestion of the apple is outside of my ego, my conscious mind, the digestion and the alchemy of these emotions where I was sad, went from sad to bliss. Right or go from fear to just feeling at peace. I'm not doing that I don't believe I let go of it and this ties into Michael Singers He says that these I don't know what he calls them Sankara's or something these these these energy blocks.

  They're [00:51:00] there So you're not experiencing your true nature You're all blocked up with these old programs and beliefs and feelings, but when they get released they move up and out You have this space now where you get to experience yourself. So that's how he describes it.

  Does, I mean, the, the metaphors and the concepts, yeah, the bottom line is you got to do the work you get.

  That's my point. It's nice to understand. A lot of us cannot confirm or prove anything, but when you have the experience, you don't care because the experience is peace and peace. It was nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is.

  Lorne Brown: I'm not at the,

  I'm not at the state, I'm not at the stage where I can equally treat fear and, and peace or fear and love together.

  Like some people say you get to a place where you don't, you don't judge either. You're, they're just vibrations. You're okay. I definitely prefer peace and joy and bliss over fear, shame, guilt, just so you know. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: really our true default

  Lorne Brown: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: is in that nature and that's the Buddha [00:52:00] nature. That's kind of like

  Lorne Brown: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: like form and we learn the other things.

  Lorne Brown: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: habituated through habits. So bringing this into fertility, which I think is actually very relevant, even though, you know, it's kind of like this big grand concept, it could totally apply to going through IVF, going through the resistance.

  And also in the IVF, you get so focused on the numbers and the analytical, where sometimes you need to kind of. move back and allow yourself the space and the, and to really take care of your wellbeing. And that's kind of like a, my big thing about that, which always tends to kind of fall in the back burner burner.

  Lorne Brown: yeah, yeah, you're going through the journey and anyhow, so that's all thing pain is Inevitable suffering is optional. I don't think anybody would want to go through an IVF However, if you're going through it, you could go kicking and screaming and suffer through it, or you can go through it and, and not amplify the difficulties of it.

  And that, again, is a skill set, because [00:53:00] IVF is not easy. As you know, the research shows it's like getting a cancer diagnosis or terminal diagnosis, infertility. So I want to clarify that we're not dismissing it. The conscious work is about being authentic. It's actually about feeling your feelings.

  However, with a different lens and developing a skill set, a process, so you can metabolize it, right?

  But yeah, if you're going to go on this journey, if you're in this journey, you didn't choose it, but you're in it. And so how do you use it as, as they say in the conscious teachings, how do you make it as, how is this happening for you versus to you? What does that mean? How do I get out of victim mode?

  Because it doesn't serve you to being accountable, responsible. What does that mean? Accountable responsible does not mean you blame yourself or you blame other accountable. Responsible means that if you're having the experience, then that's all you need to know that you're responsible for healing it because you're the one having the experience.

  If you if you it wasn't your responsibility, then you wouldn't be having that experience. And there's so many experiences [00:54:00] happening around the world at one time, and each individual is only aware of so many the ones that they're aware of that are triggering them that they're experiencing.

  That's, that's all you need to know that that means you're accountable, responsible for that. The stuff that's happening around the world that doesn't trigger you, it's not your responsibility to do the inner work around it.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well, I mean, I can keep talking to you forever and of course we just talked about one subject, so perhaps I'll bring you back for other ones as well. But this is this is definitely the kind of thing that I'm very interested in and I nerd out on this all the time. It really is something I think about every single day. I think that it is when you really are bringing up your consciousness and becoming more aware in your life and. Really being the creator of your life or owning that you are a creator in your life I just think it brings another element of purpose and meaning everything.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah. We all want to be happy. And we think different things outside of us will make us happy. This work brings that kind of [00:55:00] happiness. And if, to kind of wrap this part up on consciousness from the materialistic and then the quantum perspective, you know, when we, when we're unconscious, or when we're in that state of fear, we don't feel safe, right?

  Then our body goes into survival mode, right? The fight or flight. And so, our resources are not available for healing. creativity and reproduction because they're in survival mode, you know, blood gets drained from the, the thinking brain goes, the blood gets drained from the digestion reproduction.

  And so, but when you feel safe, which is what conscious work is, so here's on the material level, you free up resources for healing, creativity, reproduction. And we know this, that the unsafe hormones of cortisol. and adrenaline and epinephrine, all those things affect inflammation, the body, the effect, your immune system, your hormonal system, your gut microbiome.

  And when you feel safe, you're releasing the serotonin, the dopamine oxytocin, and they turn on and off genes for health and [00:56:00] reproduction. So that's the material level. And then on the quantum level, there's more of this world that meets the eye and you have multiple stories. And I have stories of women where it doesn't make sense on the material Newtonian.

  medical, current medical research

  that this woman is going to get pregnant based on her age, based on her FSH, AMH, based on her history. And then they go ahead and it happens, right? And that's where dispenses energy changes matter. It's instantaneous or Randine says the Shen is key here. And that's where you tune in.

  And I, and I want to clarify, I'm not saying, Oh, if you do conscious work, you'll get pregnant. Absolutely not. Just sharing that. Miracles can happen or shifts can happen. And what I have found is people get to a place where they're okay. Whether they're going, they have baby or not, they know they're okay.

  And that means they have the flow and receptivity. So they feel happy. They still want the baby, but they're no longer in that state of desperation. They're no longer putting up the resistance that could be interfering [00:57:00] with that flow and receptivity, which would be supportive of a. Healthy pregnancy.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and it really comes down to the state of being and that state of flow. And so again, you were saying, you know about how it's not about taking out the things that are uncomfortable for us And that's really the yin and yang balance having both, you know The differences and then having them be harmonious and work together and flow I think ultimately it's like I always say it like when you're in flow things start to work out you're coasting

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well people, resources tend to flow to you when you're in flow and receptivity. When you're, when the resistance is low and you have flow and receptivity, things tend to flow to you. And we know in electrical systems that when there's stagnate, there's resistance, we call it Qi stagnation in Chinese medicine,

  Michelle Oravitz: our bodies. Yeah.

  Lorne Brown: the energy flows slower and it heats up the system in a bad way.

  And when the resistance is low in an electrical system, the energy flows

  better. So we're electrical, chemical, magnetic beings. And so when our resistance is up, we call it cheese [00:58:00] stagnation, call it resistance. You don't feel the flow and receptivity. We call it stress in the West. And when you are able to do the work to metabolize, to have that alchemy where you're changing these old programs that don't serve you or the, or metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings then the resistance drops and now you have flow and receptivity.

  Your energy flows better.

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. So Lauren, this is a great conversation. I definitely feel like we connect on many levels and I think it's really fun to be able to talk to somebody about this kind of work, especially somebody who's a colleague of mine and somebody I look up to. I think that you do a lot of great work. By the way, he also has healthy seminars, which is like a whole list or database of many courses for us.

  A born members. Within the fertility world. So he has a lot background in this work. thank

  Lorne Brown: Thank you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Lauren, for coming on. And if you can also share how people can find you through your website

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, two ways. And [00:59:00] then on that you can find Instagram and all this stuff. There's the Accubalance website and it's with one C Accubalance. ca. The ca stands for Canada for my American listeners Accubalance. ca. Or the laurenbrown. com will have links to stuff as well. And Lauren is spelled L O R N E so laurenbrown.

  com and obviously I also want to direct you both sites will have links to it, but the The conscious fertility podcast has lots of talks around consciousness and, and also around fertility as well. Like guests like Michelle are on there. And so, I do invite you to listen to the conscious fertility podcast.

  We put out usually once a week episodes.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, Lauren, this is a great conversation. I knew it was going to be, cause I met you last week and we had a great conversation last week too. thank you so much for coming on today.

  Lorne Brown: Thank you very much, Michelle.[01:00:00] [01:01:00]

Ep 330 Why Your Nervous System May Hold the Key to Conception

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into why your nervous system may hold the key to conception. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function? I’ll break down how chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation affect hormone balance, digestion, and overall well-being.

In this episode, I’ll also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine and share practical strategies to restore balance, enhance relaxation, and support your fertility naturally.

Key takeaways:

• Chronic stress can put the body into survival mode, diverting energy away from reproduction.

• A harmonious balance between action (yang) and rest (yin) is essential for optimal fertility and overall well-being.

• Stress impacts digestion, which in turn affects fertility. The vagus nerve plays a key role in restoring balance.

• Proper sleep helps regulate hormones, maintain circadian rhythms, and support menstrual health.

• Practices like yoga, qigong, breathwork, grounding, and acupuncture help shift the body into a restorative state conducive to conception.

• The heart-uterus connection in Traditional Chinese Medicine highlights the role of oxytocin in conception and reproductive health.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orobitz. And today I'm going to be talking about something absolutely crucial for fertility.

  And you may have not guessed this, but it's your nervous system. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function for both men and women? Today, we'll cover how nervous system dysregulation affects fertility, why stress hormones like cortisol disrupt reproductive balance, and how to regulate your nervous system to boost your fertility. And because I love blending Western science and traditional Chinese medicine, we'll [00:02:00] also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system and how keeping these energies in balance is key for optimal fertility. So let's dive in.

  So first I'm going to talk about the autonomic nervous system, and it is basically what is hidden in the background, taking care of your body at all times, whether you're conscious of it or not.

  So for short, we can call it ANS. So the ANS controls involuntary functions like heart rate, digestion, and reproductive function. It has two main branches. One is called the sympathetic nervous system, and you may have heard this referred to as the fight or flight.

  And the other is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is considered the rest and digest. So if you want to think of this as the yin and yang, the yang is more active and it would be more of the fight or flight. Which isn't a bad thing 'cause you know, everything that we have in our [00:03:00] bodies are there for a reason.

  And the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest, would be considered more of a yin, which is more in its potential and it's more calm and inert. So when these two systems are in balance, everything works really well, and ultimately we need both in order to survive. And that is why it's there in the first place.

  But when stress takes over and the body shifts into survival mode, then this is considered more chronic stress. It's something that happens all the time. So we're not meant to have this So fight or flight mode happen chronically, we're meant to have it to take us out of danger, but we're not always in danger and we'll still feel it because of our stressful thoughts or stressful situations in our life will cause us to feel like we need to survive.

  So when this happens chronically, it creates a sympathetic nervous system in overdrive and this can directly [00:04:00] impact fertility.

  So just to recap on the yin and yang, if you haven't heard about this before, the yin is a more feminine, quiet, calm state. And it's more receptive. It's cooling. It is considered the moon, whereas the yang is the sun. It's more active.

  It moves a lot. It moves quickly. It is more the fight or flight. It has a yang energy and the yang could be more heating. So like I said, it was, more representative of the sun and mobilizes energy for action.

  Generally, although fight or flight and rest and digest are just one examples that have yin and yang qualities, we have yin and yang aspects of our bodies really for everything. And in order for our bodies to thrive in general, the yin and yang have to have a harmonious state.

  So they need to work together as a couple. And when that happens in a harmonious balanced [00:05:00] state, that is when we thrive. And you can think about it as homeostasis. The body likes homeostasis and homeostasis is really vital in order for our bodies to thrive.

  So we can also look at actions that we're doing. If we're doing things that are too young, too active, like type A personality type of thing, where we have to get everything done, everything on the checklist has to get done, and we're not really taking time out for the rest and digest, or for time to just get more.

  restorative, restorative sleep, restorative rest, or do things that are less action oriented. When we don't have that balance, then we go into a more overdrive aspect of the young, and that can burn us out.

  And it's important to know that when we get into a survival mode, our bodies and our minds are not focused on any kind of creativity whatsoever because we have to survive and the body's always going to favor survival over [00:06:00] reproduction. So if reproductive energy needs energy, then it's going to basically tap.

  It's kind of like our savings account. And the body, if it's really depleted, it's going to tap into the savings account and use that for survival, which means that it's taking energy away from reproduction. And when energy is being taken away from reproduction, then it's not going to reproduce because that is not priority.

  The priority is survival. So, Having this chronically can really, really wreck havoc on your hormone balance and really impact so many different systems. It can impact how you sleep. When people feel really stressed. Then they're going to have a really hard time falling asleep because their nervous system is constantly wired and ready.

  You know, when we're in a survival mode, we're not going to want to sleep too deeply because look at our ancestors. If they knew that they were in danger. [00:07:00] They were going to be a lot more awake. You see a lot of cats with their ears open. Their nervous system is very receptive to any kind of noise. So small noises can wake us up and we're not going to be in a state where we can just let go and feel safe.

  And ultimately being in the rest and digest mode really means feeling more safe. Another thing to consider is the fact that our rest and digest mode, I mean, based on the actual description of that means that it's restorative, the rest, but it also helps digestion. So we know that high stress that is chronic can lead to

  issues with digestion. So Our digestive health is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. In Chinese medicine, we look at the spleen and the stomach as a pair. And those organs are actually, even though the spleen in Western medicine is more something that works on our immune system, which the spleen and stomach do to some extent, [00:08:00] because when our digestive health is really healthy, our bodies have enough energy to fight off any outside impacts.

  any disease, really. So it gives us the energy that we need. So we need our digestive system to work properly in order to nourish our bodies so that our bodies are able to get energy. Plus it also, with a healthy digestive system, you have less inflammation and a lot of imbalances with the digestive system or even our gut microbiome can impact.

  autoimmune conditions or our immunity and have it a little more hyperactive because there's chronic low grade inflammation at all times. So those are things that are actually really, really important. And as we know, chronic stress can impact our digestive system. So we have a relationship really between the brain and the gut is absolutely real And it is mediated by something called the vagus nerve. 

  And that is a cranial nerve that is in [00:09:00] charge and actually having it stimulated can impact your heart rate and it can impact your digestive system. SoSo it has a direct communication between the brain and it has a direct communication to the enteric nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the enteric nervous system is basically our digestive nervous system. it runs from your mouth all the way down to your anus. So it's basically your whole digestive system has its own nervous system. And this is called the enteric nervous system. So your thoughts and your emotions and your emotional state can indirectly impact your nervous system of your gut through the vagus nerve.

  So your thoughts and emotional state and stress levels can impact your gut health through the nervous system.

  And of course, if your sleep is impacted, this is going to cause your hormones to get impacted because sleep helps restoration. It also helps deplete excess hormones and balance [00:10:00] hormones altogether. It also impacts our circadian rhythm. And for women, this is really important when it comes to their menstrual cycle, because our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock also impacts our infradian rhythm, which is the 28 to 29 day cycle, which is our menstrual cycle.

  And when it comes to Chinese medicine, our heart health or heart state is really, really important when it comes to fertility health, it has a direct line of communication. And a really,a direct vessel to the uterus, which through something called the bow my channel.

  And this is really important for conception. So many times when our hearts are not in the right place, then it can impact really how our uterus and our womb reacts. So it is one of the really most important things is really connecting to that heart center. And also we know that the love hormone oxytocin increases around ovulation and it increases [00:11:00] after intercourse.

  So we know that there is something to that. It has to be there for a reason if it has a role to play in conception. Although this aspect has not really been studied as much in depth.  

  We know that it wouldn't be there unless it had played a role. And

  Most of the studies done on oxytocin really are geared towards labor and the body going into labor. So we know that if that's the case, and in Chinese medicine, the heart opens the uterus, that's its role. Then perhaps the heart opening the uterus opens it in labor, but perhaps it also opens it in receiving new life. Because as we can see, the levels increase around time. which is optimal time of conception around ovulation. And after a woman has an orgasm, it also increases for men as well. But in this case, I'm talking more about women because it has a role on the womb.

  So in cases of men, [00:12:00] their sperm health can get impacted by a dysregulated nervous system. So it's important for men to also have The proper rest and proper nervous system balance. So we also know that with men it is important to have the Yin and Yang balance as well. When it comes to overall, you know, Yang is more of a male energy and they do have a lot of that heat.

  But also the sperm is really surrounded by Yin fluids. So it is very Yin also in nature, even though it's very quick swimming. So it's important for both to be in balance for men as well. So again, going back to the nervous system, we're thinking about something that's active, but something that is also restorative and having those two opposites in balance.

  So a couple of things that you can do to balance the nervous system, and this can be done for both the men and the women, is to do things like yoga or qigong, because [00:13:00] with moving the body, you're able to really restore a state of balance. safety in the body and where the body feels safe, it has more energy for its creativity.

  So the body's creativity is fertility, but the same thing happens with the mind. When the mind is in chronic stress, the last thing it thinks about is creating and innovating. And usually when the mind feels safe, it will be more open we'll have more energy to create.

  So another thing that can be done is grounding. Grounding is incredibly calming and it also calms the nervous system because most of the time it's done outside. Although you can get a grounding mat if need be, which is something that you can purchase online, and you can use indoors.

  Grounding has an impact to regulate your circadian rhythm. It also helps you sleep really well at night. And it also has an impact on lowering inflammation on the body. This is scientifically proven and there's research on [00:14:00] this and there's studies about this and it's pretty amazing.

  It also decreases the time for wound healing, which means that it heals the body really quickly. Native Americans have always talked about why it is so important and actually that the body can become sick if it doesn't ground. So grounding is incredibly important and one of the things that is often missed these days because we have rubber soles and our feet don't really have many opportunities to ground into the earth.

  And what grounding really means is having your feet touch the earth, whether it's sand, dirt, or grass. An opportunity where it's able to touch the earth directly. And by doing so, It actually impacts your body's electromagnetic frequency.

  Another thing that can be done besides yoga and qigong is also breath work. Breath work also has a direct impact on the mind. When your mind is nervous or stressed out, you typically will have that [00:15:00] reflect in your breath by being short what happens is when we're more relaxed, we actually breathe slower and deeper.

  So by breathing slower and deeper, you're actually able to impact the body. and create and induce a more calming effect immediately.

  And also by using belly breath, you can use the diaphragm. So it's diaphragmatic breathing, which can also impact your nervous system and calm it down. Something else you can do is humming. And by humming, you're creating a certain vibration that can impact your vagus nerve.

  So it basically stimulates the vagus nerve which can also have a very calming effect on your nervous system.

  You can also listen to music. So the sound vibration in certain types of music, not all music can have a very calming effect on your nervous system. And examples for that are solfeggio frequencies [00:16:00] and even sound bowls

  and even classical music. So those are sounds that can create more coherence and order in your mind and your body. Something else that you can do is also do some heart math exercises. Heart math institute is something that I would definitely suggest looking into.

  And what they study is the connection between the heart and the brain. And when your nervous system is more calm, it shows. And when your heart brain coherence has increased, there's more coherence and order and that induces a state of more calm and a more restorative state in your body.

  And of course I am very biased, but, I am very big on acupuncture, which is really how I got into it. I started out as a patient myself and acupuncture, the practice of acupuncture and getting treatments for acupuncture can be incredibly beneficial for your nervous system.

  It is so powerful isbecause it gets you into a state of deep relaxation. [00:17:00] And when you're able to deeply relax, your body is able to restore itself and regenerate and repair.

  So on that topic, one of the ways that it does that is using ear points, but you can actually use your fingers and massage your own ears because your whole body is reflected in your ears. You could do the same thing for your feet as well. And I would suggest also starting out a really nice sleep hygiene routine, which means lowering lights about an hour to two hours before you go to sleep.

  That is going to help restore your sleep. The more sleep you get, the more calm and at ease your nervous system is going to be. So those are my tips for calming and restoring your nervous system.

  So that concludes my tips on balancing your nervous system. and I hope that this episode shed some light on how intertwined our nervous system is with our fertility health And why it's so important to [00:18:00] nurture a balanced nervous system state.

  If you have any questions and have any ideas for future episodes. Feel free to reach out to me on instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility

  I'm very active on instagram. So that is the best way to find me

  so thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. [00:19:00] 

EP 329 Enhancing Fertility Naturally: Yoga, Breathwork, and Mindfulness

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception.

In this episode, you’ll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Kerry Hinds
Follow Kerry Hinds on Instagram
Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Kerry Hinds

  [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes.

  and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children.

  Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you.

  Kerry: Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today.

  Michelle: Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise.

  It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga.

  Kerry: Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with.

  Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system.

  And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life.

  Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman.

  And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me,

  Michelle: oh

  Kerry: did all the

  Michelle: What a great friend

  Kerry: I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language.

  So for anybody who's doing this,

  fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training.

  I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this.

  And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification.

  And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it.

  Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this.

  You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now.

  LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles.

  Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF.

  We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million.

  Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant.

  Michelle: Wow

  Kerry: intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right?

  So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga?

  And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was,

  Michelle: It's true

  Kerry: Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining.

  what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution.

  Michelle: Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth.

  That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable.

  And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get.

  Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important

  Kerry: Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't

  going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're.

  You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that.

  I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally.

  So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm.

  Michelle: I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe.

  And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that.

  And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in

  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy.

  Kerry: Yep.

  Michelle: Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system.

  Kerry: 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system.

  So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just

  Michelle: Yeah. I love that. Yes.

  Kerry: Because what it is, it

  Michelle: Yup.

  Kerry: It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again.

  And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?

  Michelle: Right. it's

  Kerry: explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things.

  Michelle: Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system.

  We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system.

  And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound.

  So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our

  bodies.

  Kerry: Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to.

  And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me?

  Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there.

  And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built.

  And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights,

  quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.

  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that.

  Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.

  Michelle: I love restorative yoga.

  Kerry: Me too.

  Michelle: Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now

  Kerry: Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,

  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right?

  And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go.

  So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard.

  Michelle: Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog.

  You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly

  Kerry: Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming.

  And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system.

  Michelle: Yeah. It's not amazing.

  Kerry: You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: like

  I just

  Michelle: who doesn't like that?

  Kerry: Yeah Yeah,

  Michelle: That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga

  or other types of yoga?

  Kerry: Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey.

  So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things.

  And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle.

  So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right?

  So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space.

  So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well.

  So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right?

  We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga.

  For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on.

  So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones.

  Whew.

  Michelle: I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest.

  So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension.

  Kerry: Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah.

  Michelle: And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra.

  And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure.

  Kerry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time.

  And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga.

  It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that.

  But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah.

  Kerry: I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture.

  Yeah. It's like a seal.

  Michelle: again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue.

  Kerry: Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras

  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera.

  And it was actually very profound.

  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two?

  It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly

  Michelle: It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements.

  He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago.

  And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine.

  That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so

  sometimes

  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics.

  And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros.

  And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we

  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies.

  I can nerd.

  I

  Kerry: I, I'm going to go, I'm

  going

  to,

  Michelle: all day long.

  Kerry: I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,

  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness,

  spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving.

  And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space.

  We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah.

  I

  Michelle: that.

  Kerry: Yeah. The

  Michelle: Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates.

  I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space.

  Kerry: Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much?

  Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there.

  So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space.

  it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking.

  Michelle: Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly?

  Kerry: Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns.

  The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes.

  It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds.

  I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go

  ## Marker

  Kerry: progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want.

  Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious.

  But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected.

  And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility?

  If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Kerry: and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful.

  really

  Michelle: is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor

  to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to

  Kerry: it.

  to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored

  Michelle: have time. you have time.

  Kerry: Yeah, I

  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most?

  Like the two week wait, perfect time,

  um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most.

  Michelle: Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff

  Kerry: too. Me too. Me too. I

  Michelle: I think we're on the same page.

  Kerry: I am

  Michelle: fascinating.

  Kerry: nerdy about it. And,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here,

  Michelle:

  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women.

  I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds

  Kerry: Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it

  if I

  can't

  Michelle: said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast,

  Kerry: yes

  Michelle: guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest.

  Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very

  Kerry: thanks for the shout out for the podcast.

  Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever.

  Michelle: for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways?

  Kerry: sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health.

  But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and

  it's

  finally

  Michelle: That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool.

  Kerry: Yeah. Thank you.

  Michelle: Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story.

  Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing.

  Perfect.

  Kerry: Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]

EP 328 Glutathione for Fertility: The Antioxidant Game-Changer

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness, a pharmacist, researcher, and glutathione expert, to explore the critical role glutathione plays in fertility and overall health. Dr. Patel shares his journey from traditional pharmacy to developing a breakthrough delivery system for glutathione through the skin, and why this antioxidant is essential for protecting egg and sperm quality.

In this episode, you’ll learn how oxidative stress impacts fertility, why diet alone might not be enough, and how his innovative technology can support the body’s natural detoxification process. Be sure to tune in for this fascinating conversation packed with practical advice and insights for anyone on the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness is a highly sought-after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. Since 1999, he has collaborated with physicians to custom-develop medications and design patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. As the pharmacist of choice for celebrities, CEOs, and physicians alike, Dr. Patel is recognized for his innovative approach to health and wellness. He is the author of The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy, which distills over a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione. His patented technology for delivering glutathione topically has revolutionized how the body absorbs this essential molecule. From this breakthrough, he also created the Auro GSH Antioxidant Delivery System, a skincare line designed to deliver antioxidants more efficiently and effectively than ever before.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://aurowellness.com/?ref=1670

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Aurowellness

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Dr. Nayan Patel

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Patel.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the time today.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, I'm very excited to talk about what we are going to discuss, which is glutathione. But before we get to that, I would love to get your backstory and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Oh my god, absolutely. So start off as a pharmacist, as a career as a pharmacist, and after graduation [00:02:00] from pharmacy school. In Southern California, we were, we were trained to take care of the patient's needs and medications. And very quickly I realized that the medications we have at that time were actually not solving any problem.

  They were just maintaining people's problems. And very, very early on, you know, you have an aha moment in your life. That oh my god, what what did I just do right? Oh, I'm just not solving any problems So I had to turn my career to a completely different angle no former educations in in making medications or doing compounding or customizing medications that dive into the that practice and 25 years later here we are today and looking back at that and said, what a journey, what a turning point I had, because it shaped me for who I am today. I had the privilege of making medications and design treatment plans and drug plans for so many individuals helping them in their health and wellness journey. And then all [00:03:00] roads led to me to a discovery of a novel technology that can deliver glutathione. And it all started because I was just curious to find out how we can help people solve their own problems instead of trying to figure out medications to solve the problems. Right? Even though glutathione is not a, it's, it's something that body produces internally we're using it as a supplement today, but. And overall my goal was not to do anything and just enhance the body's own ability to to defend itself. And so here we are today it's a very interesting career for me for sure.

  Michelle Oravitz: For

  sure. And first of all, just for people listening that don't really know much about glutathione, I'd love for you to share really what it is and also why it could be so challenging to supplement with.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. so the glutathione in a nutshell Is three amino acids coming together in a single chain. It's a one of the smallest form of peptides we have You two amino acid chains, three amino [00:04:00] acid chains, four, five, 30, 40, 50, and thousands of the chains as well. The simplest form, of course, is glutathione, which is about three amino acids coming together. It's by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. And if that's produced so much, we ought to know what it's supposed to do for us. And so that's what my research came back for 140 years that we have known about glutathione. Nobody's ever figured out how to actually get inside your body. And so, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, we had a medication approved by FDA to enhance glutathione level. And as of today, that is the only medication that has been approved ever. In the whole,

  in the whole world, which is N acetylcysteine, which is one of the amino acids that's been used to produce chlorothione. And that's the only thing that has been available for the last 60, 70 years.

  Michelle Oravitz: So let's talk about what so we definitely, that's one of the things that um, I've been doing for egg health and also sperm [00:05:00] quality, cause it's such a high potent antioxidant. And one of the things that I have always suggested is N acetylcysteine because that's the precursor and we knew that that was like the one way that the body was able to produce it.

  Okay. Thank you. But then there were some supplements that still supplement with glutathione, liposomal, like different ways, which I know are not really shelf stable. So there's always been challenges with that, but before we continue on with that, I'd love for people to hear, like, what glutathione can benefit, how it can benefit the body.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I understand your audience is interested more in the fertility side of the whole thing. So, you're dealing with rather younger individuals overall which is a good sign because younger patients have, everything at their disposal for the body to respond to even the smallest amount of nutrients that they receive. If the same amount of nutrients is given to an 85 year old person, they're not [00:06:00] going to feel anything, right? But if 20 year old person gets a small amount of good nutrition, they respond very, very well. And so I want to make sure that people understand that

  Michelle Oravitz: And also just to kind of mention um, sometimes we have 40 year olds too, that are trying to conceive or like trying to do IVF. So just kind of like, yeah, the whole,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: They're still spring chicken to

  Michelle Oravitz: okay. Okay. It's good for them to hear that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I mean, I've helped people in the very, I mean, in the late forties to get babies as well. So it's

  not something that's not doable. It's just gets incredibly hard after the age of 40. So it's, not that easy to do so, but the glutathione has multiple properties and understanding what glutathione does is, monument in over. in our therapies because with the two things that we do know is it's the ability for glutathione as an antioxidant to detoxify, neutralize all the free radicals in your body. But the second component is also help you detoxify by conjugating [00:07:00] inside your liver with metabolites and chemicals binding to them.

  So we can basically get rid of it from from your body. So the two functions that we do know That exists today. There's a lot more research still existing that we need to do. So we, we still are urging researchers to go back and use this new technology product and see if we can find out more things that glutathione can do for us.

  So one two the sperm or the egg quality is dependent on how your body is able to neutralize those free radicals. Those free radicals are actually toxic to all the embryonic membranes and embryos itself and the quality of the sperm and the egg itself. And neutralizing those free radical of body, there's three ways to do that part.

  One, you take outside products like vitamin C, and vitamin E, and CoQ10, and and C60s, and I mean, methylene blues, I mean, there's a slew of products that says, oh, we are so called antioxidants, right? So that's [00:08:00] category one. The category two of the products are produced endogenously inside your body are enzymes like catalase, supra oxide, puase, SOD, for short glutathione peroxidase, or GPX for short.

  So these are the enzymes that the body produces to deal with the oxidative stress or the free radicals. Okay, so those are the category one are the category two. The third category is only one product, which is glutathione. And if you look at it, the body produces so much of glutathione, and the effects of glutathione is so powerful, that if you combine the category one, which is all the antioxidants from outside sources, and the enzymes that your body produces, those two combine, Glutathione can surpass the antioxidant properties. And so I want listeners to understand very carefully is that the glutathione needs to be a basic cornerstone in everybody's arsenal. Every medicine chest in the world should have a [00:09:00] bottle says glutathione And in that bottle either you have a product or it have a note saying that eat healthy food to Let your body produce its own glutathione Either way that note has to be there on every medicine chest out there and you're right There's so much noise out there I want to cut to the noise today because if you just put your favorite search engine or your ai robot is going to tell you hey glirathion, there are a thousand different products out there.

  Choose one You Right. And as a consumer it's very hard to find out what to choose correctly and people hide behind a great technologies that that exists in the world and said, Oh, my, my product uses this technology. So it's the best one in the world. And you mentioned liposome technology, by the way, I just will let, you know, we were one of the very first few people that actually use liposome to produce the first liposomal glutathione. This was 25 plus years ago, right? And we made the liposome because at that time that was the [00:10:00] best technology that existed in the pharmaceutical world. And the doctor that owned the patents for those came to me and said, Hey, we've been very successful in making this for medications. Can you help me make nutraceuticals with it?

  Like vitamin C and CoQ10 and PQQ and S Xanthine and Glutathione and so on and so forth. And so we made the products for that doctor. And then a couple of years later. Some work, some did not work. Gluten was one of the products that did not work. So I go back and says, why is that working on everybody? The question I always ask is, hey, it helped my girlfriend. How come it's not helping me? Or it helped my sister. Why, how come it's not helping me? What, what, what am I, how am I different

  than the other human beings? and in reality, only your face is different. Internally, we are identical.

  A body has the same heart, the same organs, everything is the same, right?

  So we have not changed for the last 40, 000 plus years, [00:11:00] how to expect that I'm different than my sister, or I'm different than my girlfriend, or whatever, right? Maybe your genomic mixture is different, but your overall organs and organ systems are identical. And so to me, I said, okay, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If I get absorption in one person, I guess you should get absorption in everybody. What's the rate limiting factor? Why is it not happening? And so I didn't have answers at that time. I did not know what to do. So next story is that, okay, you know what? I'll make the intravenous form of glutathione. Hey, if I inject him into the bloodstream, my job's done. Again, took me a few months to figure that portion out how to make that part. And yes, This is long story short, we were Well, again, we were one of the first company pharmacy early on in 2001 to make the injectable form of glutathione. Now, very quickly, we realized that the effects of this glutathione was very short, right?

  And then I looked back in the research and said, there was a study done in 1991 [00:12:00] saying that if once you inject glutathione, it only stays in the body for between four It takes five to 15 minutes and everything gets destroyed or gets, get, get, it gets into the urine and you pee it out, but an hour and a half later, there was an increase of cysteine, which is one of the amino acids that went up in the blood. And so the researchers concluded that the body was breaking down this glutathione and cysteine was getting reabsorbed by the body and cysteine is being used for your body to produce its own glutathione. I said, okay, I don't care how the body makes it. As long as the body has a gluten, I don't care. But the results were very short lived. And I don't know if you know this thing, but back in early 2000s, one of the doctors came to me. I said, Hey, if it's short lived, that's okay. Let me take you to Vegas because when people drink, they deplete their glutathione levels. If it only stays for 15 minutes, I can revive somebody who's passed out drunk of their minds and I can get them.

  So. He literally took this product to Vegas and [00:13:00] start helping patients. I read scripts for those

  kinds of things. And again, I have nothing to do with it. I, unfortunately, I was just the supplier and I was just the maker of the product, but we saved so many lives. We helped so many people, but we were, we learned one thing that the action was not long term.

  And if I want the long term benefits, because if it's one of your patient, if it's one of your listener, who's, who's trying to get pregnant she, or he has to plan for A 30 day cycle, not a 15 minute. Give me some push right now and I'll be done. No, it's a

  30 day cycle. You have to plan everything methodically, right?

  What am I supposed to do from day one to day seven and from day seven to day 14. And after ovulation, what do I do? And after post ovulation, if there's an embryo implantation, what do I do? And so on and so forth. It's a, it's a whole process and your body needs to be clean this whole time. And none of the products were actually getting the results I was looking for.

  Later on, I found out, this was 2011 [00:14:00] University of Texas in Austin did a study on the liposome technology product of glirathione. And what they found out was same thing that they saw in intravenous form. The body actually breaks down the glirathione, never absorbs a single molecule of it. Absorbs the cysteine and cysteine is later used to produce his own glutathione. And the end story is, it still works. It still works. But people need to understand, just because it works, it does not mean your body absorbed it.

  And there's a there's a difference between that one and maybe some people may not appreciate that part But I do appreciate that part because in my case i'm dealing with thousands of patients across the country across the globe now And I want to make sure that I want to give assurance to everybody that hey if I give you a glutathione product No matter what it is going to get inside your body [00:15:00] and absorb it And so the liposome technology product was great until now People got a lot of people got results for almost 80 got results from it but not because it absorbs it because the body was able to Conjugate or take the cysteine and make its own glirathione today Today the things have changed now.

  Why? because 15 20 years ago We started doing gene testing gene snips You Right at that time it was nobody can afford it. I was fifteen twenty thousand dollars for a blood test Oh gosh, no, nobody can afford that today Same test is 200 bucks 300 bucks,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: right? So now what's happened is that now everybody's doing these gene testings And finally got hey, do I have gene mutation where my body cannot produce gluothione

  if the answer is yes Then I don't care how much product you take from outside sources, the body is not [00:16:00] able to effectively produce glutathione correctly all the time.

  And so that to me is one more proof, one more proof that we need a product that your body can actually accept it, incorporate into their own DNA and use it when it needs to. Anyways, I just went off too many

  tangents no, Thanks very much, interesting. I want you to continue. So how did you find out and, and like how did you discover the product that you have now and what kind of technology does it use and how does it really impact the body?

  Absolutely. Those

  Michelle Oravitz: nerd in me wants to know

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Yeah.

  All great, great questions. And I want to, I really want to be an open book. I don't want to hide any information from anybody so that I'll be more than happy to open it up and let everybody know. So earlier when I first started the book. So we had a, we had a couple of barriers.

  One, what we knew was the body's not going to take any peptides, any amino acid chains to get it to and incorporate it into their own DNA. [00:17:00] What we, what I found out was the body has to make 100 percent of all peptides in the body, the body has to make it.

  Right. So we knew that I knew that part very early on. So I said, okay, there is no way on earth I'll be able to make a product that your body can use it up. Okay, so now I had to figure out Okay, how do I get this simple tripeptide three amino acid chain peptides into the body? So I first of all, I want to do, I want to create a stable molecule because if I have a stable molecule in my lab, I can work with it.

  If it's unstable, I don't have time to really experiment on it, right? So my first goal was to make a stable molecule. So that we achieved pretty fast. It took us a couple of years when we got the stable molecule. We took it by mouth. Again what we saw was Sistine went up, so it was not working really, it was getting broken down. We scored into the nose, I said, and if the nose was burning, I said, oh, nobody's going to use this on a daily basis. Of course not, right? It's not a, it's not a fun thing to do. I knew the [00:18:00] injectables was a little bit of an uphill battle because it requires FD approval and all those things. I said, you know what? The only route that was remaining was skin route.

  And of course, skin is a physical barrier, right? So it's a physical barrier that I have to overcome. And the physical barrier is, is a particle size barrier. So I had to reduce the particle size so small, It can get through the cracks or the pores of your skin and get inside your body. So that was the first challenge I had, which we were able to crack the code in about a couple of years. We had to take this peptides, twist it in such a form that doesn't get broken apart and gets a small, you know, like when you twist the towel, you know how it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, but you twist enough, it can get really small. And so that's what we did with this molecule. It forces microscopically, and we were able to reduce the particle size to much smaller. We got to the skin. The bigger challenge is this glutathione is inside your cells. So now the issue is that, [00:19:00] okay, we release a particle size, we get through your skin. Now, so the physical barrier, we, we all work in the physical barrier. The second was a chemical barrier. Because the cell wall is a lock and key.

  Hey, you say the magic word and the castle opens up and you can go inside. But if you don't say the magic word, the castle will never open for you. So the question then becomes is that what does the body needs?

  What does the cell needs to survive? All your mitochondria, the energy powerhouse in your body is in the cells, right? And that to produce the energy, what you need is carbohydrates and sugars. I cannot give you sugars because I give you diabetes and we already have an epidemic of diabetes in the United States across the world nowadays so I said, okay, how do I get a polysaccharide sugar type molecule?

  That doesn't doesn't do anything about the sugar is completely inert FDA has tested it out and it's completely safe to give to anybody pregnancy no pregnancy children's everybody And can I use that molecule? So we found [00:20:00] dextrin technology. This was a technology that has been out for about 20, 30 years now, but there are no good medications in the world.

  As even in today's state, there's not too many medications out there. People are still dabbling around. those technology products. And so we use the technology to literally, instead of working with medications, we start working with glutathione. We do the sugar molecule and stuff inside with glutathione. It's like, do you need M& Ms? Do you need

  Michelle Oravitz: No, not anymore,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Not anymore,

  Okay, Good. Good. Do you, do you eat M& Ms for the peanuts or for the chocolate?

  Michelle Oravitz: I guess well, I used to like the chocolate ones when I was really, really little. And then later on peanuts,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Exactly. But the thing is, you don't eat M& Ms for peanuts, you eat M& Ms for the chocolate.

  But the

  peanut inside, if you get a peanut, do you spit it out? Or you know what? It's not so bad. I can use it up.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's like I compare it to like, you know, the being able to take those pill things for your dogs where you put it inside a treat and get the dog to eat it. And[00:21:00]

  Dr. Nayan Patel: That's exactly right, right? So I took the carbohydrate, the sugar molecule, stuffed the glutathione inside, you know, so the body, when the carbohydrate hits the cell wall, the cell goes, oh, I can use this up. Right? And sucks it in. Inside is glutathione.

  But he goes, well, I can use this up too.

  It's not something new to me, so I can use this up too. Right? And so now, it's like you somebody tells you that, hey, I have a billion dollar coming to you, but it's coming in the mail. Well, that's not helping me right now, but if it hits my wallet, gosh, I can spend it today. Right? So, you can check the mail, it's in a transit, but until it hits the wallet, you cannot do anything about it.

  Saving glutathione, if the glutathione is in your body, but it's not inside your cell, the, the cell says that, okay, I need the glutathione, but it's way out there. It's not in my cell. I cannot use it up. Here we got inside the cell directly. [00:22:00] When we did that part, like magic just happened. All of a sudden, the body has a product.

  The body needs it. The money's in the wallet right now. I can go spend it today. And the body can actually use the glutathione immediately To start doing what? Two things that we know of as of right now. One is start neutralizing all the free radicals. That's number one.

  Number two, start getting my liver cleaned up and start detoxifying all this, all this metabolism in my system.

  When you do those things up, all of a sudden your whole body or your temple, your, your the sanctuary in your body starts getting healed from inside, starts getting cleaner. And all of a sudden the, main thing, which is our sperm and the eggs. Are not been invaded or not been attacked by this toxic chemicals.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that's, there's, there's my technology. We discovered this in 2007, as you can imagine 2007 it was too far [00:23:00] ahead of the game.

  There was nothing in the world that exists something even close to this thing. And so there was no studies being done. There's no research articles published. There's nothing out there in the world that I can fall back and say, Hey, go ahead and use it safe.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: do that part. So it took me another 13, 14 more years to literally do everything that I can do on my own. I have no funding.

  I did everything on my own. I put every single thing I have back into this to basically research it out. Apply for the patents, all my work that I did. I, in fact, I published a book about three, four years ago. All the work I did for the first 13 years, I put in a book. I said, Hey. Guys, here's read it, right? This is this is all my work and it's just success stories that I've given to patients and clients and And found friends and family that uses product and and see how how much benefit they got in different areas of life right if you're an athlete versus if you have metabolic disorders versus you have [00:24:00] metabolism, defects if you're on the spectrum because spectrum patients have some sort of Metabolism issues of detoxification issues that they cannot clear the toxins out of the body

  And they are the autism or aspergers or whatever they got right?

  So

  i've all the stories and I have some

  stories about horses and and dogs and how how they

  it helped them as well in their in their wellness, thing as well as anyways So that's all the stories in the book the glutton revolution. That's my book. But after everything got done We had a pandemic

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: the product was not even released yet You And the pandemic comes around and I've been begged by all the doctors around the country.

  I said, oh my god Please give us the access to the glutathione because I was working with doctors So they knew about this product, but none of the consumers knew knew about it

  And so that's when we actually did a soft launch. We didn't have a bottling. We didn't have a boxing. We have nothing at that time No website, we had a website, but it was like a nothing nothing crazy So 2021 [00:25:00] was the first launch of the product now we are here today, but, so anyways, so

  thanks for asking me this question, but I just wanna make sure the story

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, no, I love the story because I think also I have very, very smart listeners, I'll be honest, like with a fertility journey, they are so educated. You know, it's such a motivator to really educate yourself. And a lot of times if I work with people in person online, I see the most educated people, they really know a lot.

  So I wanted to kind of have a background to really explain how the process works. Cause I feel like it's very empowering for them. And the two things that I know, like an N acetylcysteine. So that works as a precursor to get the cysteine. And then from that gets the body to produce glutathione. And then your product works through the skin and then is enveloped by the carbohydrates, right.

  Or the yeah,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is, it, it's, it's a polysaccharides is what we call 'em. And it's embedded inside that one. It's the, analogy I can [00:26:00] give you is that, hey if you need money, there's two ways to get money. One is I'll give you a job. You work at it. And you, you share your trades and then for the reward, I'll give you money. The second part is here's the money in your wallet. I'm not going to give you too much of it. I'm just going to give you enough to survive the rest. You still have to go make it yourself. Right. And so the second part, I give you enough to survive. Your body says to make the rest of the glutathione from the foods you eat and things like that.

  but a lot of people need, just need a little edge over everybody else. So

  I just give them extra glutathione to make sure that they are able to use up right now, because when you have a problem today, if you need the money today, and if you give you a job, I said, that's good, but I need the money now.

  I don't need money two weeks

  from now.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that makes it very, very useful. And in, in certain cases, I'm not saying that is good for everybody.

  What I am saying that is good for everybody, but the product may not be good for everybody,[00:27:00]

  but having a healthier lifestyle, having the cysteine rich diet.

  Is absolutely a must I

  don't care what what age you are, right?

  That is absolutely a must

  So if you do that, if you have a healthy lifestyle, that means avoid the toxins that depletes the glutathione levels

  Having the diet that consumes that gives all the amino acids those two things combined Will will give you a fighting chance for long periods of time where you don't need any supplementations

  The supplementation is very good for people that need extra help or temporarily

  And then once your body gets under control then you can stop it, too

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And then, so the couple of questions that come to my mind is you know, I'm, I'm a, also a big believer, obviously it sounds like it's doing something, but I'm also a big believer that like nature has a very a method for its madness. And I'm wondering, is there a reason why it's under such lock to allow um, glutathione in by itself, rather than having the body produce it?

  It was just [00:28:00] kind of like something that came to my mind.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: know.

  Michelle Oravitz: you were mentioning that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and you're right. I mean, the body is, is equipped to deal with, because any peptides that you, that the body can accept from outside sources can actually get embedded into your DNA.

  And so having the purity, what if you give somebody else's DNA inside your body?

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Wow.

  Right. Think about it.

  Think about it. You're injecting somebody else's DNA. Some, some of the protein

  from something else that is not made by humans. The body is going to start going to cycle, react to it and say, Oh my God, what if well, we have vaccines right nowadays. What are the vaccines are proteins by outside of viruses, right? How about we use those embedded into our own DNA?

  So that's the, that's a scary part to me. And so that's the reason why a body does not allow anything from outside sources to get inside your body.

  It's very [00:29:00] very protective. Glutathione we do know is produced endogenously. It's

  inside your body, making sure that the glutathione the raw materials that we use Is of the highest highest quality.

  I would say 99. 99 percent pure is what we need. Otherwise, we just going to have a chance of making sure we have a chance that we can harm our body. And so

  just so for when I, when I first heard that in 2007, I quickly, I realized that I have to bring manufacturing in house.

  I can't trust anybody to do this for me.

  It literally took me eight years to build my own plant out

  small plant But just enough so that I can control every single thing making sure the water that I use is the highest quality Everything that goes inside is for the highest quality products. That's why I had to Ensure that so I brought everything in house.

  It was too costly to make it It's still too costly to make it and to [00:30:00] reduce the cost. I had to make sure that I I am, I'm going straight from the manufacturers to the consumers and there's no too many middlemen in between to reduce the cost down.

  And so we've been doing whatever it takes and you're right.

  The by doesn't take it. So having that technology to bypass this is somehow empowering that we can do that part. But it's scary is that we can use the same technology to, to hurt somebody too.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And thank you for answering that. And also, my question is, what have you seen in the research? Like, what have you seen short term, long term, because you, it sounds like you guys have been working with us for a long time, in the response of people's bodies and conditions.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. So just FYI of a human body gets everything gets, gets redone every 30, 60, 90 to 120 days.

  That means you get new cells in your bodies all the time.[00:31:00]

  The body is constantly constantly making new cells, better cells so that you can rejuvenate yourself from inside out, right? So the body is, it's like you're having a house, constantly remodeling your house from inside all the time, right?

  So no matter what happens, if I make a hole in the wall, you know what, a few months from now it'll be a brand new wall again. I don't have to do anything, just have to wait and don't make it further damage the wall, right? And

  it'll be repaired by itself. So the body repairs itself. The issue is that. The glutathione can actually improve the repair process to the point where it repairs better.

  And you can feel the effects much, much faster.

  Now certain organs take them 12 to 18 months to repair. For

  example, liver, it takes a long time to repair. So, any, if you're looking for benefits for liver health that may take anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Even though if I have doctors I work with all the time and the doctor says, Oh, my, the liver function tests are coming normal. I said, just because the tests have [00:32:00] no, that doesn't mean the liver is normal, right?

  I guess you're right. Absolutely right. So they do ultrasounds. They do scans and things like that to figure that portion out. But again, it takes them 12 to 18 months to fix it.

  At a short term people when they have have issues with oxidative stress.

  The biggest issue I've seen is these are, these are people that have some gene mutations that cannot produce, they cannot conjugate and make enough glutathione. They have this brain fog that has been lingering on for decades, decades, right? For 10, 20 years sometimes. Of course, these are older people.

  These are not 20 year olds. And so they've been struggling and All of a sudden, they use a gluotide and about 15 minutes later, they can just see the, just brain just opens up. Now, it is not a, it's not a something to improve your memory. It's not this magic pill that you see in the movies. It's here,

  one pill, my brain just fires up and I'm, I can

  think and I can do anything I want to do.

  It's not that pill, it's a

  Michelle Oravitz: but I'm sure it can prevent things like Alzheimer's or things like that. Mm hmm, [00:33:00] mm

  Dr. Nayan Patel: well, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that as well. But in the short term, when people see the brain fog clears up, all it's doing is reducing oxidative stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: hmm.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: If you need to reduce oxidative stress, so I've seen results as much as 5 to 15 minutes. Up to two to four weeks in most

  individual And two three to six months in I would say 99 of the people they see some improvement in their health and wellness and they're most of them are working with the physicians So they're doing some blood tests before and after the doctors are saying what the heck you're doing I don't know what you're doing, but keep on doing it.

  It's very good for you. So

  Michelle Oravitz: That's really interesting. And then also, if you were to get, you know, outside source of glutathione, the body feels the glutathione, will it make an impact on the body's own production of glutathione now that it feels that it has more.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. And the thing is [00:34:00] the the biggest concern that people have that hey What if if I take glutathione from outside sources with my body shut down his own production?

  And yes and no, I think the body probably may reduce the production, it probably will not shut it down because keep in mind when we're comparing, because most people have been burned by, hey, if you take steroids, your body will, it'll blow up like a balloon and because the body is not able to make its own regular, its own steroid production, which is true, which is 100 percent true. endocrine system is tightly regulated from your gonadal hormones, your pituitary and your ovaries and your testes and to the brain, which is the pituitary the hypothalamus, right? So they both work together, your brain tells your ovaries to produce the hormones, the ovaries produce the hormones, the ovaries cannot produce the hormones, The brain is going to keep on sending signals.

  Can you do more? Do more? Do more? Because I can't do anymore. I'm already tired. I'm burnt out. I'm just, I'm shriveled up. I can't do anymore. Right? Versus if you [00:35:00] take a hormone from outside sources, it affects straight to the pituitary. And the pituitaries will shut down and say, Hey,

  no more producing hormones.

  You got too much. I don't know where it's

  coming from,

  but

  Michelle Oravitz: like a thermostat,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Right? It's a negative feedback. But when it comes

  to glutathione, glutathione is not triggered by any brain or hypothalamus. Glutathione is taking three

  amino acids together, two enzymes, two molecules of ATP, which is energy, and one molecule of NAD

  for electron transfer. All this to come together to make glutathione. Right?

  Now this same energy, ATP energy, NAD energy is being used in thousands of chemical reactions that happens every single day.

  So keep in mind, if your body does not have to produce glutathione, your energy is never wasted. It's used to do other reactions all day long. But the good thing is that glutathione is by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. [00:36:00] And after a couple of weeks or so, the body is saying, hey, everything is not working great. Now for two weeks later you see some increasing energy because now the energy is is Getting excess and your body goes.

  Oh my god. I have excess energy now all of a sudden. It's not a car It's not a caffeine type energy It's not like jumping up and down type of energy, but you do feel good from inside out

  Right. You do feel good. And all of a sudden

  you pick up other habits, walking, jogging, cycling, you know, or just going out and just, you just have this, this energy inside your body that you want to do other things.

  You just feel alive from inside.

  And so, and then when you stop the glutathione, the body says, okay, oh, should we have, we need more glutathione. So the first energy goes towards producing glutathione, but if you have enough glutathione, that energy has been used to produce other peptides. Keep in mind, a

  muscle needs what?

  6, 100 amino acids coming together. Takes a lot of

  energy to produce muscle fiber.

  So if you're not [00:37:00] using the energy to produce glutathione, hey, hopefully it goes to producing more muscle mass. I'm hoping for that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. . And is there like a limit on how long you should take it? you know, is there a limit that you have?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I do know that your body needs glutathione until the last day you die.

  So, until that day, you have to take it.

  After you're dead, I'm not sure if your body needs glutathione or not. So, that's a joke. I'm sorry. But your body needs glutathione to survive. Every single day. So the needs are going to be the endless. the better

  question to me is that do I need to supplement every single day of my

  life? That's a way better question for me to answer is to that that question came to me in my mind long time ago as well. And so what I have found out is that the body needs glutathione. to survive. Your body has the ability to produce glutathione, plenty of it on a daily basis. And what

  I found in [00:38:00] my research that up until about the age of 30, there is no need for any supplementation. None.

  Improve your diet, reduce your exposure to toxicities. You should be fine.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Between 32, 35, if you have a healthier lifestyle, don't drink alcohol. Don't expose yourself to heavy levels of toxicities.

  Don't do sunbathing a whole lot. And having a very clean diet, you might still be okay. 35 to 40, I would say 80, 90 percent of the people may need to supplement gluathione, over

  40, I have yet to find somebody who has normal levels of gluathione and so the question that I ask is, Hey, what's Well, my mom in the fifties and sixties never had to use a gluathide, and she lived for long periods of time, so why is it today, right? But keep in mind, at that time, sixty years ago, maybe the world population was three billion, now we are eight billion population. And who are the biggest polluters in the world? Is it the [00:39:00] animals or the humans?

  Michelle Oravitz: Humans.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Humans.

  Animals don't even wear clothing. They don't even do anything. They don't have to build any houses and, and destroy the world. They just live, enjoy the world and leave the world the way it was when they came in. Us humans wants to fly, wants to build a hundred story buildings and wants to drive cars and wants to do all kinds of things. So we are the biggest polluters and the pollution has literally what more than doubled in the last 60 years. So if we say that the, the modernist society is polluted, the answer is

  absolutely yes. And it's not, it's not like we are turning the tables and we're going on the other way around. So like it or not, nobody's willing to give the modern day conveniences at this point.

  They don't, they're not going to do that part. So the question is that yes, Maybe my mom did not need gluten until the age of 50 or 60 [00:40:00] maybe. That's dropped down to 30, 35 or 40 at this point. And I'm scared for my kids because they may need glutathione at the age of 25 That's that's not a good thing to do, but it's just just telling us that our memory is getting more and more polluted and we need to figure out every single thing that we can do to enhance our body to stay clean from inside.

  Michelle Oravitz: And is there a benefit to taking N acetylcysteine as well as the, the skin,

  um, supplementation?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: okay, so NAC or cysteine so there are about eight essential amino acids that you have to take every single day Cysteine is not one of them Cysteine, Glycerine, and Glycine. Those are the three amino acids that's used to produce glutathione. Those three are not even in the part of the eight essential amino acids. So if you take cysteine and the glutathione topical version that we have, the cysteine is not going to be used up to produce glutathione at all. It may be used up for some other components, but not for [00:41:00] glutathione. I would suggest that if you're doing that part, then save your money and just improve your diet,

  right? If you have the money, I would rather you invest in those eight essential amino acids. Those are much better to do that, like Lucid and Proline. And so those are much more better to for you to use it on a daily basis. I'd rather you spend the money on that than to spend the money on the SysTeam.

  Michelle Oravitz: Got it. And then what are some of the foods and, that you would recommend for the glutathione diet?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Michelle, I've been told not to advise people on diet

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay. Thank you

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is worse than the religion and politics. So I'm going to tell you one thing. All right. So everybody has a, has an AI robot. Everybody has access to AI robot.

  Go type it up.

  Sistine rich foods.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sistine Richards

  Dr. Nayan Patel: You're going to get your vegan choices, vegetarian choices, carnivore, [00:42:00] paleo, Atkins.

  I don't know what a longevity diet.

  I don't know. Don't die diet. I, I don't know. There's so many diets out there right there right now. All these

  diets are going to be satisfied if you just type in the word system food and see what food are you willing to eat and make and have a variety of foods from that list

  that you consume on a daily basis.

  Like what's in that list? I, you know, on an everyday basis, every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah

  Dr. Nayan Patel: in there, asparagus in there, there's oysters and chicken and turkey. And I mean, you can name it, right? There's so much stuff is in there that you can consume.

  It's not a small list, right? But you have to make it a part of the routine.

  But that's just one thing. That's just one thing. The second part, which is utmost important, is limit. Limit your exposure to toxicities,

  Michelle Oravitz: yes true [00:43:00] Oh,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: pure. Right is important and because of that guess what my technology I even dove into the skincare as well

  because because most of my customers were females.

  Well now they are like 50 50 today But at that time all my customers female and they look at the technology and say hey Can you give me all the antioxidants for my face as well? I said sure. It's that's easy, right? So I just went got all the antioxidants and I said, okay Put it squeeze the size right so I can shove a whole bunch of stuff into this couple of products And so I have like seven or eight different antioxidants in full concentration and some are even more in like two creams

  right And then two of the serums I give like 10x of what you what you get from any of the products in the marketplace today so I give you a vitamin c and glutathione in a very high concentration to your skin Gets your skin completely disperses really really fast and gets gets to the all the skin in your whole body And so anyways, so I

  did that [00:44:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: if you do that, To your face, is that the same thing, the same technology that will get glutathione in your cells? So it's kind of like two in one?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So it is, it is it's the same technology, but what we have to done is we have to identify the speed and how deep I want to go inside. So

  the skincare is more

  for,

  Michelle Oravitz: different. It's more

  Dr. Nayan Patel: yeah, but I would always say that if you're using both that do not double up, do not double up, right? If you're using both that

  your skincare routine, as is the way it's been introduced to you,

  and then just add on the, the top of glue that just once a day.

  Michelle Oravitz: I

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And you, and you still get the, I mean, you get full benefit. That's the ultimate Longevity hack is what I call

  them, right? Cause the beauty is inside out.

  The ultimate longevity hack is you do the full skincare routine

  and just do once a day of the glutathione. If you don't do the skincare routine, just the glutathione twice a day is, is, is, is what you need.

  That's an ultimate bio is, [00:45:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, that's great.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I have.

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, listen, I mean, I'm curious. I'm sure people listening are very curious, how can we find out more? How can we buy this stuff and get ahold of it?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely.

  So, my website is oral wellness. com. A U R O wellness. com. Go to the website. There is a two part on the top is skincare and wellness. Otherwise you can go to oral skincare. com as well. The same thing. My urge is that if you are any of this patients that is Not able to give up monitor conveniences or you may suspect that you may have low glutathione levels I would probably strongly suggest you try it for 30 days

  It is,

  we do offer a hundred percent, a hundred percent money back guarantee.

  We don't charge shipping and handling. We'll refund you everything, right? We will, we will do full refund of everything. Cause I just want people to try it out. And once you try it for 30 days and if you see slight benefit of [00:46:00] it then it's the best thing that can happen to you for the rest of your life.

  It's one thing that I have, I have customers for now for 17 years, since the first we discovered this product. That will, that's like a, it's a go to product in the arsenal. It's like, it's always there. And I'll tell you, I'll give you another analogy right now, because I wanted people to really understand what this is, because as you age, your body is deteriorating, is diseased, and it is, is, is breaking down, right? It's like. You go to your, when you go to your home you leave your door open. And as soon as I leave the door open, the dust, the wind blows the leaves inside. And so what you do is you bring your vacuum out or your, or your broom out and start sweeping and guess what? There's more dust and more leaves coming out.

  Right?

  So what do you do? I'll say, Oh my God, I forgot to close the door. Once you close the door, you can literally clean the whole house from inside and make [00:47:00] it brand new again.

  Right? Oxidative stress, oxidative stress, production of free radicals is the opening of the door analogy in your body. Oxidative stress is not doing anything, but it's allowing every single thing to come inside your body. And destroy the body from inside and unless you block that and close it up

  You cannot buy your body does not heal from inside, right? So the glutathione is actually closing the door is actually closing the door and then allowing your body to what to start getting? Cleaned up from inside and start repairing itself inside So at the bare minimum at the bare minimum if you do for four months You're going to have every single day Products in your body, every single cells, organs, every single thing you're going to have allowed them the chance to [00:48:00] regenerate self.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: after four months, yeah, it's after four months, it's like game over. So I have people that even today's they, they said, I know what I have to do. It's just that I just keep on forgetting.

  I said, that's okay. You know, close the door first. You know, it's, it's no fun sweeping and wrecking your house every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: No, no, it's not. I agree. Wow. This is amazing. Really, really fascinating information. I just love the fact that you have a background from, from ecology. I mean, that you understand it really from the inside out and that you were able to apply technology and really understand it from your perspective and that you had these ideas to create a product like that, that's really cool.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and I, I wish I had this product when we were going through our early on in my life because my wife had a hard time conceiving and it took us nine years to have a first

  son. Yeah, and it's not that we were trying for nine years. It's just that [00:49:00] after marriage, it took us nine years to have the first son and we only tried for maybe about a couple of years before.

  And then. We did, I think we did one, one, I think two IVF cycles.

  And I said, this will be the last one. We'll never do it again because I know the damage it causes to the human body.

  And I wasn't the one suffering, but I know it was going to destroy her body for the rest of her life. So I was not willing to put up with make her go through the process, even though it was like something that is so blissful to you, right? When you have a kid.

  So, yeah, we did all the traditional because I was pharmacist. I knew I'll do all the hormone therapies. I did all the hormones

  correctly. Everything was just fine, but she just was not producing any follicles. The follicles were there, but they're not producing any eggs.

  I knew that it was oxygen stress, but at that time I had nolu thi product in

  me. And So uh, it is just so unfortunate, right? But today you have that if you are a young person that is trying to conceive you have this thing, [00:50:00] at the very least, just use it for a few months. It gives it by the chance. And and, and hopefully you have a healthy baby. That's, that's always my

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, that's the hope. Yes. And sending all of that good, good energy and good thoughts to everybody listening. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel for coming on. This is a great conversation. I will have all the links to the website and everything in the episode notes for people to view if they want to stop, stop the car and then go look, but thank you so much for coming on today.

  This is a great conversation.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Appreciate your time today. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. [00:51:00] [00:52:00]

EP 327 Why Unexplained Infertility Is a Symptom, Not the Problem

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by world-renowned fertility specialist and Harvard-awarded scholar, Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, founder of The Rosa Institute. Gabriela has dedicated her career to helping couples overcome infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments to create healthy families. With over 20 years of experience, her Fertility Breakthrough Program™ boasts a remarkable 78.8% success rate, even for couples who had previously faced long-standing fertility challenges.

In this episode, Gabriela explains why infertility is a symptom of deeper health issues and shares how addressing these root causes not only improves fertility but also enhances overall health. She also delves into her innovative, evidence-based approach that combines modern science and natural medicine to deliver transformative results. Be sure to tune in for this enlightening conversation packed with practical advice and hope for anyone navigating the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa is a world-renowned fertility specialist, author, and Harvard-awarded scholar. She is the founder of The Rosa Institute and creator of the Fertility Breakthrough Program™, which has transformed the lives of over 140,000 couples in 110+ countries. Gabriela’s work focuses on addressing the root causes of infertility using an evidence-based approach that combines modern science with natural medicine. With extensive training in reproductive health, naturopathy, and public health, Gabriela is passionate about empowering couples to achieve their dream of parenthood while improving their long-term health and well-being.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Gabriela.

  [00:00:06] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you so much, Michelle. It's so lovely to be here.

  [00:00:09] Michelle Oravitz: So lovely meeting you. We just had a really nice pre chat and I would love for you. I always like to hear an origin story. I would love to get your background and how you got into the work that you're doing right now.

  [00:00:23] Gabriela Rosa: And sure. Look, I think if for me, I've been doing this work since 2001. So it feels like a very long time, probably because it is. I, when I start seeing my page, my, my patience, babies graduating from university. I'm

  [00:00:37] Michelle Oravitz: Oh my God. That is crazy. Cause you look so young.

  [00:00:41] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, thank you. It must be all those herbs and nutrients, you know, but, um, it's funny because like, that's exactly last two years ago, I had this experience of like seeing, literally seeing one of my babies graduating from university and thinking, Oh my God, where did the time go?

  [00:00:59] You know, like, [00:01:00] that's just crazy, but, um, but it's, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. Um, I don't know that I have. In a way, I think that, you know, we, as, uh, Steve Jobs says, you can't, or said, you can't join the dots in advance. You know, sometimes you can only join the dots in retrospect. And as I look back, I think, you know, I don't know that I planned to be where I am, but in a way I plan to be exactly where I am, if you know what I mean.

  [00:01:32] It's a very strange kind of

  [00:01:35] Michelle Oravitz: It found you.

  [00:01:37] Gabriela Rosa: certainly found me, that's for sure. Um, and it was really through my experiences with patients that That it shaped the specific area that we focus on because we really only treat couples who typically have been experiencing infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments, and really have, you know, have tried everything and nothing has worked like that's who [00:02:00] we treat.

  [00:02:01] And it certainly didn't start out that way. My, my passion when I first started doing what I do was that I wanted to make sure We had a contribution to making the world a better place, one healthier baby at a time. And I really had in my young mind that I wanted to help as many people who wanted to have a baby to prepare, to do preconception preparation, to be the healthiest version of themselves because we know epigenetics matters.

  [00:02:27] We know that the way in which, you know, uh, prospective parents go into a conception attempt and certainly conception in general will. either increase or improve the health of a child or, or decrease it, you know, there is no zero net some kind of effect. There's only ever always positive or negative effects.

  [00:02:48] Neutral effects are generally kind of weighed down to negative effects. So for me, and I'll talk more about that if you want to, but, you know, for me, it was that whole idea that I wanted to ensure [00:03:00] That we were making that contribution. And it was interesting because although some people were really interested in being the healthiest that they could be, most people were not, most people are like, Oh, this is just too much work.

  [00:03:13] Let's just start trying. And if we have a problem, then we can do something about it. And that was never really my attitude towards it because the way that I see certainly the work that we do. There is another layer to it, which is not so much about the physical and the functional. Although, of course, we address that our program has a 78.

  [00:03:32] 8 percent success rate for people who previously, you know, were infertile, lots of failed treatments and all of those things. And we validated those results through my masters in public health at Harvard. So we know that, you know, what we're doing certainly makes a difference. But. It really, for me, the undercurrent and the underlayer of why I wanted to do this work was actually for self actualization of the patients who came to us, you know, it was for really being [00:04:00] able to reach one's full potential in terms of health and how that impacted other areas of their life.

  [00:04:06] And that's how I wanted to work. And the people who were coming in for preparation really were not into that kind of work. And so I started to see that the people who are more in alignment with the work that I wanted to do and the legacy that I wanted to leave in the world were the people who were having difficulty.

  [00:04:27] And so I started to kind of focus more and gravitate more towards, you know, those, those challenging experiences and how to help people overcome them and, Transition and almost kind of transmute what they were going through. And about five or six years into it all, I had a patient who really changed the trajectory of my whole career.

  [00:04:52] And she had been referred to me by a friend who thought that she should have a conversation with me. She had been infertile for [00:05:00] 10 years. She had done multiple failed IVF cycles at the time. And even though now I talk about that case and it's kind of like, Every day in the office for me at the time, it was the first time that I was seeing that.

  [00:05:11] And so I was like, Ooh, I don't know that we can help that kind of sit or that I can help that kind of situation. You know, I don't know that there's much that I can do, but she was really insistent and quite adamant. I actually talked to her the other day and told her this story because she didn't even know.

  [00:05:25] Yeah. And she was like, Oh my God, that's so amazing to know. But you know, it's, um, what I ended up happening was that because she was so insistent at doing something, she said to me, she said, look, it's going to be my last try. I'm not going to do any more treatment after this. You know, I'm getting older. I don't want to continue this.

  [00:05:43] It's been long enough. So I said, look, that's fine. Let's do what we need to do and we'll see what kind of result we get. And Three months later, after years of nothing working, she was actually, it was about four months later, she was pregnant and I was like, Oh, okay. So there's, there's something here, you know, but then at the same [00:06:00] time, I thought, Oh, that's, that's strange.

  [00:06:02] I actually doubted my own, my own results, you know, I was like, Ooh, I don't know, I don't really know if, um, if this is just one of those. Luke situations, you know, one of those kind of like random occurrences. But then there was another patient who came to me not long after her, who was infertile for 19 years and yeah, and then I was really like going,

  [00:06:25] Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  [00:06:25] Gabriela Rosa: I really don't think that I can do anything for you.

  [00:06:27] She was 44 by the time she came to me. I had a conversation with her. I said, look, it's not usually, obviously what walks through my door is not 19 years of infertility, but just recently I had a lady who had been trying for 10 years. We can give it a go and see what happens. And we did that. About five or six months later, she was pregnant.

  [00:06:46] And so I was like, okay, now to, you know, randomness can occur, but to is a bit like a lot. And so, um, and so I started to, after we had that, that success, so I had that kind [00:07:00] of experience. I started to then really decide that, okay, you know what, I'm only going to treat people who have been. Trying for more than two years and nothing has worked.

  [00:07:09] And I did that for many, many years. And when I finally went to do our study for the for the fertility breakthrough program and its results when I was doing my masters at Harvard, we realized that Yes, we had a 78. 8 percent live birth rate for people who had been infertile for almost four years on average, plus or minus almost three years.

  [00:07:34] So it really helped me to realize that, okay, this definitely makes it, you know, what we do and the methodology that we use, and that obviously I've developed over the years. really does make a difference to address these really difficult, complex cases of couples who, and individuals as well, you know, sometimes we do get solo reproduction patients who come to us who have been experiencing FALD, or egg [00:08:00] cycle, or IVF cycle, but mostly couples who know that there is more that they kind of intrinsically know there's more they can do, but they don't know what.

  [00:08:08] And they also are very unclear typically about why it's not working. You know, they have these unexplained diagnosis of either infertility or failed treatment or miscarriage, and they keep being told, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And we know that clearly, What is normal is that you have sex, you get pregnant, you hold your baby, that's normal.

  [00:08:33] A deviation from that tells me that, okay, there's, there's more that we need to ask in terms of what's going on here and certainly more that we need to answer if we're going to get somewhere. So that's how it all started. And I guess that's how it's going, you know,

  [00:08:50] Michelle Oravitz: Sorry. I had to mute myself because of the noise outside, but that's awesome. I mean, those stories are pretty amazing. I mean, really, [00:09:00] really like shockingly amazing. And a couple of things came to mind as you were talking about it. And I love the fact that you were saying about really approaching a person that To make them more vital, like to really improve their overall wellbeing.

  [00:09:16] And rather than just focusing on disease, you're really focusing on their health and seeing them in almost a positive light. And it is actually, we don't really notice this, but it is actually a perspective. of many healthcare professionals or like older types of healthcare, like not older, um, I guess more like conventional.

  [00:09:38] Sometimes they'll focus more on the symptoms and we always say like root cause versus symptoms rather than just focusing on treating disease. It's like treating health and really kind of a more positive way to approach the journey.

  [00:09:54] Gabriela Rosa: You know, what's interesting is that, you know, we see these days that [00:10:00] fertility, and I say fertility rather than infertility. Fertility is highly medicalized, right? So it's, it's about finding the problem and treating a problem as if The ovaries and the testicles, i. e. the egg and the sperm, were the only parts that make this process happen.

  [00:10:23] And we know that it's not. And, you know, what's interesting about it, and I think that, you know, to speak to what you're talking about, the issues here are so much greater than where we find ourselves, because it's a, it's a healthcare system problem. The reality of it is that when it comes to prevention, typically public health is focused on prevention and the healthcare system is focused on the treatment of disease.

  [00:10:50] And we see that when it comes to fertility a lot and what ends up happening as a result of it is that It really is just [00:11:00] focusing on like, it's almost like, you know, you've got a sore finger. Okay, let's chop that off and fix that problem. Hopefully you don't get to chop it off, but you know, that's typically how it, how it's approached.

  [00:11:11] And so what ends up happening is that the entire context of the human being that is meant to produce the result of, which really fertility is a, is an outcome. But it's also a retrospective outcome. You know that it's you're holding a baby once you are, like whatever happens before that moment happens is essentially a part of what is going to lead to whatever outcome you have.

  [00:11:39] And so I always talk about it from this perspective. If you are experiencing Challenges in terms of getting pregnant, keeping a healthy pregnancy to term, these are end results of many biochemical chain reactions that start all the way, you know, way before the result is meant to occur. What IVF tries to do is [00:12:00] immediately work from like the immediate part that you can see, i.

  [00:12:03] e. egg and sperm. But the reality of it is that there's only so much leverage when it's not very much that you can get from only trying to address those cells, as opposed to all of the biochemical pathways that are leading to the creation of the cells in the way that they are. And that's part of why IVF in its, on its own, often fails, because one, it's not looking and addressing What are the reasons as to why we need IVF to begin with?

  [00:12:31] And what is it that we need to do to improve the chances of conception occurring, whether it's via natural conception or via IVF? I also want to really kind of underline and highlight the point, the point that whether we're talking about any kind of reproductive challenge, whether we're talking about infertility or miscarriage or failed IVF treatments, It's almost like those are clues.

  [00:12:57] They're not results. They're not the outcome because the [00:13:00] outcome of reproduction is a baby. So if we're having failures in that process that are leading us to not hold our baby, it tells us that, okay, the clues that we have are the symptoms that we're experiencing. Infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments.

  [00:13:18] Those are symptoms. Right, really to a large extent. And what that means is that we need to treat them as such, because if we don't address the red flags that are infertility on its own, miscarriages on its own, and failed treatments on its own, because failed treatments is relevant here, because the moment that you have an egg and a sperm together, you have an embryo. You have a baby right in that moment. You have a baby when you transfer an embryo for a for treatment, you are pregnant at the time of transfer. No matter what you are pregnant. So if [00:14:00] you don't see a positive pregnancy test. That tells us that implantation has failed and that tells us that, okay, there's something there that we need to address.

  [00:14:10] Why is it failing? Most doctors, most providers don't care about it. They literally just say, oh, you know, it's a like, it's a numbers game. It's the luck of the draw. Just keep trying. Everything is normal. Just keep trying. When I hear that, literally, this is why I have so much gray hair. Because when

  [00:14:27] Michelle Oravitz: But you have beautiful skin.

  [00:14:31] Gabriela Rosa: when I hear that, I just go, Oh my God, like, how can we keep believing this lie that everything is normal, just keep trying whilst we're having very clear symptoms, infertility, miscarriage, failed treatment, that things aren't quite right.

  [00:14:45] What we also know about these symptoms, and I like to call them symptoms because really, That is what they are. They're telling us that there is some imbalance within the system that often left unaddressed will lead. [00:15:00] It's not may lead. It is will lead to other health conditions being developed in the long term.

  [00:15:06] And we know that being studies about this that show that. For people who have an infertility diagnosis and just bypass it with any other kind of treatment rather than addressing IVF etc, rather than addressing the issue, what happens is that the risk and the rate of all cause mortality in the future is higher.

  [00:15:32] So people who are diagnosed with infertility who don't treat it. actually die from all other causes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, at a higher rate than people who actually address their problems. And this was demonstrated to happen and be true for females and for males. So literally, if you're not addressing infertility as a symptom, you are digging [00:16:00] yourself a hole sooner and at a younger age than you otherwise would want to.

  [00:16:04] Now, I know that this is unpopular and most people are going to feel very confronted by hearing something like this, but the reality is that, sure, you can go and bypass infertility and the symptoms of infertility and go into IVF and get a baby. But are you going to have the quality of life and the ability to be here to raise that child in the long term?

  [00:16:26] That's a very important question that people need to ask themselves before they simply just jump onto, you know, overcoming the issue with a band aid and just fixing it as opposed to actually truly addressing the root cause of the problem and finding what is the problem. You know, because there are things, for example, if you have antiphospholipid syndrome, which increases the risk of miscarriage, that's also a marker for cardiovascular disease in the long term.

  [00:16:57] So you're literally like, if you are [00:17:00] ignoring it for, and just take heparin, take whatever to be able to actually take home a baby and not really addressing the underlying concerns that your body is telling you than a present. Well, You are certainly increasing your risk of cardiovascular disease in the future.

  [00:17:16] And like that, there are many other examples. I'll give you an example of insulin resistance. You know, like I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 18, I had to really understand how to take care of my body in the best possible way to have regular cycles, despite being told by a medical doctor that. I probably would never have Children.

  [00:17:35] I was able to conceive two babies twice, literally one and two kind of attempts later by understanding what it is that I needed to do in a holistic way for my body. Now, had I not done that and just jump bypassed the problem with taking metformin, not that I'm saying it can't be a part of the solution, but it can't be the whole solution, right?

  [00:17:56] I would have probably at this stage in my life right now. [00:18:00] Have pre-diabetes or have already have diabetes because we know that insulin resistance leads to pre-diabetes, which leads to the development of diabetes and that women with PCOS have and are at highest risk. Now by me ignoring my insulin resistance, yes, I'm increasing the risk of implantation failure.

  [00:18:20] infertility and diabetes in the long term. And like I said, if I don't address that at the, at the point in the time that it matters to overcome fertility concerns and fertility challenges, I am choosing diabetes in the long term. So, and we know that one of the biggest killers in the world these days is diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.

  [00:18:43] And there are many cancers that are associated with the insulin resistance condition, resistance conditions and pre diabetes. So again, you know, I already have a family history of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Do I want to add to that? No, thank you.[00:19:00]

  [00:19:00] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I mean, wow. You know, this is such an important topic that you're bringing up and it's something that I don't even think has really been brought up to this level on my podcast and I've been doing this since 2018. I mean, yes, we've, I've talked about how, like I've had people on and say almost like going through the fertility journey saved my life.

  [00:19:21] I mean, so yes, people have acknowledged it, but to this detail that you're mentioning, I think it's just so important for people to hear. And I think it is important. It's one of those painful truths. It's something I apologize about the noise behind me, but, but it is, it's one of those painful truths. And I think it's important for people to face it and acknowledge it because ultimately you can ignore it, but it's going to come back.

  [00:19:48] It's not like ignoring it makes it go away.

  [00:19:50] Gabriela Rosa: exactly. And I think that that is, you know, if, if people take nothing else out of this conversation today, I think what's important is to understand that you [00:20:00] cannot bypass infertility and still be healthy in the longterm. You have to work with your body to understand why is it giving you these symptoms?

  [00:20:08] What is it that you can do about it? Not just hearing a doctor say, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And yet having completely either it. Out of range or out of optimal range test results and continue to think that, well, IVF must be the next solution because it is not. IVF can be part of a solution and it's a wonderful part of the solution for couples who really, truly need it.

  [00:20:33] And truly, it was developed for women. with tubal factor infertility. So people who had blocked fallopian tubes for some reason, it wasn't developed for the variety of fertility concerns or issues and, um, causes that we have today. So we can't just expect that we are going to bypass the problem and are going to have absolutely no negative [00:21:00] effect in the long term.

  [00:21:01] And I think that that's a really important thing for people to understand is that. Yes, you might use it as a way to support a process, but not without addressing, and certainly not by ignoring what's causing it to be needed to begin with. I think that one of the biggest things, and for me this is, you know, something that I'm exceptionally passionate about, is helping people get answers.

  [00:21:28] you know, we even have a full free program that we give to people. That is a four week program. It's called the fertility challenge. It's completely free. It's literally worth thousands of dollars. And what it does is it helps people to understand, okay, let's understand the diagnosis. For you. Let's understand what are the things that are not working in the way that it needs to and how to change that.

  [00:21:53] You know, the objective really is to get answers, get clarity, to be able to personalize the [00:22:00] implementation of whatever it is that you need to do so you can conceive however it is that you're going to conceive and finally hold the baby. Not continuing to go out and around in circles until you run out of time completely, because that is sadly what happens to so many women, so many couples, they try, and I talk to them all the time, and it's heartbreaking, you know, people who have been trying for 10 years to have a baby and feel like, gosh, I'm at the end of my rope, I need to figure out how else I can do this, or I'm really come to terms with never having a baby, you know, like this is the decision and the place that so many of the patients who come to Mirat and I so hope and wish that people can actually have this clarity, have these epiphanies way before they are at that stage.

  [00:22:47] stage where they literally have their back in a corner and there's nowhere else to move. So those are important things for me. I think that it's, you know, getting clarity and getting answers is the number [00:23:00] one thing that's actually going to enable you to implement the right strategy in terms of treatment because you can line up.

  [00:23:09] 10 men with poor sperm morphology. And you can have 10 reasons as to why that sperm morphology is problematic in all of those different men. Right? So it's not one It's size fits all. Exactly. I didn't know for somebody, let's say that they have heavy exposures to like, I've had farmers in my program, you know, heavy exposures to heavy metals and, and heat and, you know, all sorts of things.

  [00:23:34] And then I've got doctors, heavy exposure to radiation and so on. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you really have to understand the context specific need for the patient to be able to properly and effectively address it. Otherwise you're literally just trialing and erroring until.

  [00:23:53] Unfortunately, many people run out of time altogether. 100%.

  [00:23:58] Michelle Oravitz: I mean, I think that [00:24:00] the biggest problem is that people just don't even know what they don't know. So they go to doctors and then, I mean, I was one of them and people know this, you know, my listeners know this. I've been on the birth control pill and that was like my solution to irregular periods and it was just like, take this.

  [00:24:16] And this is the only thing you can do. And apart from this, there's nothing you can do. And that's, um, you know, such a straight statement and such a definitive statement. Statement that I don't know better. So I just believe it. And then until years later, I find different modality and realize, Oh no, there is something I can do.

  [00:24:34] So like

  [00:24:34] Gabriela Rosa: There's lots.

  [00:24:35] Michelle Oravitz: I didn't know. I did not know what I didn't know until I knew. And so this is why I love having people like you on here, bringing light to this because people need to hear this. Cause I think it's going to start to like light up something in their minds. It's like, Oh, wow, this is something that I can really.

  [00:24:53] Look into that's number one is people don't know what they don't know. But also number two is that they don't even know they can [00:25:00] do anything about it. Then there's a lot of things that you could do about it. And you know, there's so many people say like, Oh, there's nothing you can do. There's no cure. And a cure is kind of like a, you know, very definitive word, but treatment.

  [00:25:14] I mean, there's things that you can do that actually can impact it. It's Absolutely. that is not something that is in the conventional world.

  [00:25:23] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. And you know what else is interesting, and I think that this is, this is important for people to understand as well, because it's, it's a, it's a bugmare of mine, um, which is when people go to their doctor and the doctor runs some tests and then they go back for results and they literally are told, Oh, we've done all the tests.

  [00:25:43] And everything is normal. Now, let's peel this back and let's explain what all the tests actually means because all the tests does not mean all of the tests, okay? And everything is normal definitely doesn't mean that if you're still not holding a baby. And let me explain what that, what I mean by that.[00:26:00]

  [00:26:00] When it comes to the fertility guidelines around the world, which is what doctors will most of the time will be following guidelines because they don't want to be seen as being stupid amongst their peers. Okay, so what happens with this? A doctor will typically refuse to prescribe or request a test result unless they feel validated in doing so.

  [00:26:24] Okay. And the reason for that, and I've had this conversation with doctors, my own providers, as well as colleagues who tell me this, they say, I can't ask for this test because it's not going to be either approved by insurance, or I'm going to be criticized for requesting this test to which I reply. Well.

  [00:26:45] What is currently in the guidelines when it comes to fertility diagnosis is that you check for patency in the fallopian tubes, so are the fallopian tubes clear, and usually that's tested these days, uh, it used to be an [00:27:00] HSG, these days it's by Hycose, ultrasound with fluid in the tubes and, you know, dye spilling, spilling through if the tubes are clear.

  [00:27:10] The other test that is done is typically your kind of general FSH, LH, estrogen, progesterone. Progesterone typically recommended on day 21 of the cycle, which also is not necessarily the right thing because some women have irregular cycles and lengthened cycles and irregular ovulation. So really progesterone should be occurring seven days post ovulation and not at day 21 of the cycle, particularly if a woman has lengthened cycles or shortened.

  [00:27:38] cycles. It doesn't mean that a woman is not ovulating in those two instances. It just means that pinpointing ovulation becomes more difficult. And that is pretty much, and then of course, sperm parameters. Most people that come to me, believe it or not, despite years of infertility, have not had a semen analysis done.

  [00:27:56] or don't have a recent semen [00:28:00] analysis that really understands what's going on with sperm right now because sperm changes literally every four months. And so you can have the flu and end up with zero sperm. It actually can happen. And you know, that doesn't mean that that person is azoospermic forever and always, it just means that they've had a severe infection that has wiped out their for a sperm cycle or for a period of time.

  [00:28:24] So Understanding that the major things, and some doctors are more thorough and some doctors will prescribe or refer, recommend further tests, but as a bare minimum, they're looking for hormonal balance, looking for ovulation and looking for tubal patiency and sperm parameters. So those are four things.

  [00:28:43] Out of literally thousands of tests that could be done and that needs to be looked at. And of course, needs to be personalized because testing is also expensive and you don't want to be wasting time doing tests for no reason. So, you know, there is a balance to that. [00:29:00] But it's not enough to have four tests and not really exactly know what it is that's being tested.

  [00:29:05] And your doctor tell you, Oh, you know, we've done all the tests and everything is normal because very little is going to be picked up unless there is some serious major issue. Very little is going to be picked up by those four, you know, four things being tested or four areas being tested. What's going to happen is that you may end up with some clues about what else needs to be tested, but Typically, it's going to be insufficient to gain a proper diagnosis.

  [00:29:34] So what happened, you know, to which what happens from there is that people get diagnosed with unexplained infertility. And hence why unexplained infertility is the major, the biggest category of infertility diagnosis, because more tests have not been done. Now, typically, and this is when

  [00:29:53] Michelle Oravitz: That, I mean, that is such a good statement. Keep going. Sorry.

  [00:29:59] Gabriela Rosa: the thing [00:30:00] about it is that it's, that's what we're talking about conception and conception attempt failures, which IE infertility is what, how it's labeled.

  [00:30:08] But when we're talking about miscarriages or implantation failure, it's even worse. Because, guess what? The healthcare system expects that a woman has to have at least three miscarriages before testing is done. Now, really? I mean, I don't know, for anybody who has ever had one miscarriage, it's traumatizing enough.

  [00:30:29] Waiting to have three before you actually do any further testing, to me, is pretty extreme. That's why, you know. It's unacceptable. It's, as a woman, I think it's just like, it's ridiculous, right? Now, the other thing then that happens is failed IVF treatment. You end up with an embryo. Most people who go into IVF, and it's not everyone, but most people will end up with at least one embryo, and there will be a decision to transfer said embryo.

  [00:30:56] If it doesn't work, and of course, if the cycle [00:31:00] gets cancelled for any other reason before we get to that stage, or even then. after getting an embryo, i. e. embryo doesn't develop, you know, doesn't, you know, there's no blastocysts to transfer, whatever it is. Every single one of those points of failure, so to speak, needs to be questioned and needs to be specifically tested and addressed because otherwise, again, you can end up with the same problem.

  [00:31:25] Now, In the case of IVF, it's more problematic because it's also extremely costly. In the United States, an average IVF cycle costs about 17, 000 U. S. dollars. And around the world, you know, the price varies. But let's just go with the United States data. And we look at an average cost of 17, 000. That is whether you get to transfer or not.

  [00:31:49] you are paying that money.

  [00:31:51] Whether you have an embryo or not,

  [00:31:53] you are paying that money. So the thing about it that I questioned is like, okay, and there are published [00:32:00] studies that show that in order to have a close to 80 percent live birth rate, cumulative rate for IVF, i. e. having a baby, close to 80 percent cumulative rate of chance of having a baby, you have to have eight IVF cycles.

  [00:32:16] That's the average. Now imagine, imagine eight times seventeen thousand dollars, I mean for some people that's a house.

  [00:32:25] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  [00:32:25] Gabriela Rosa: Right. So no wonder people can't afford to go and do IVF. No wonder there are so many challenges. But even if you can afford it, would you rather do something else first to understand what is the cause and address that before going and doing another cycle?

  [00:32:41] You know, we have so many patients who come to us after failed cycles and go, look, I want to prepare to have another better cycle. Typically, those people end up conceiving naturally. They didn't even need IVF to begin with. And when they do, they end up having one or two maximum cycles afterwards, once you understand what the problem is.

  [00:32:59] [00:33:00] So again, hence the critical importance of understanding what is the problem you are dealing with, rather than just expecting that you are going to be okay with some unexplained diagnosis. for your expertise.

  [00:33:14] Michelle Oravitz: So walk us through, like, if you have certain cases, like the ones that you were mentioning, that are really, really complex and many, many years of dealing with. really being on this journey, what are some of the steps you would take? You had mentioned doing testing and functional testing also just for people listening, if you don't know about it, is a lot more in depth and detailed than what you'll typically get when you go to the doctor's office.

  [00:33:42] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And look, the testing piece, it's almost, it's a science and an art, right? Because it's almost like you need to balance. various things when requesting a test, you have to balance what is the return on the knowledge that you're going to gain? [00:34:00] What's the time spent? What is the money spent?

  [00:34:02] What are the things that are actually going to give you a lot to be able to do about it versus not very much for a very expensive test? So there's, so for me personally, and certainly, you know, in the first time method, what we use in the pro in our programs, really, what we're looking at is we kind of go back to the drawing board, we collect all the data.

  [00:34:22] We really look at everything that the patient brings from their lived experience, whether it's test results, other things that they've done, whatever it is, we collect and analyze all of that information to really first understand, okay, what has been done? Where are the gaps? Where are the places of opportunity?

  [00:34:38] What are the things that. we need action that is absolutely urgent. And one of the things that we don't actually need to address because there will be addressed as part of addressing the, you know, some of the basic major root issues, root causes. So it's understanding that nuance that actually ends up being able [00:35:00] to direct a path, particularly in those cases that we treat that are very difficult and complex because you can do a thousand tests.

  [00:35:08] You know, there's thousands of tests that you can actually do. Will you do them? No, no. So then we have to really be able to identify, okay, what are the red flags that if we were to understand more about them? Or where the gaps that if we don't know is going to change the direction of our, say, of our choices, then we're starting to look at those things, you know, in cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness analysis, which is a big field of science, really, the idea is this, if you are going to treat anyway, don't test.

  [00:35:48] Right. So for example, and there are pros and cons to this, but you know, there are certain things that you're going to treat anyway. So is there a need to test it? Sometimes there is. [00:36:00] But sometimes there really isn't and that's the thing that we really need to kind of balance in the whole scheme of things is the things that are going to be absolutely essential and the things that are not really going to be that important.

  [00:36:14] Michelle Oravitz: And what were some of the protocols or what are the types of ways that you treat people or. What is included in the protocols?

  [00:36:24] Gabriela Rosa: It's depends because it's very personalized, you know, so we will use a blend of medical. treatments and even medical diagnostics, of course. And we then are going to utilize the best of all of the worlds that we have access to, whether it's naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, lifestyle medicine.

  [00:36:44] So we then are putting together a very personalized process. That is going to help that individual that is part of that couple. Because like I said, you know, you have 10 different men, you have 10 different reasons. Therefore, we need to [00:37:00] understand what is the reason here and what do we then make as recommendations.

  [00:37:04] My biggest focus always is minimum effective dose. I want to do the least possible to get the biggest resolved. Right. That is my focus. So I'm always assessing and addressing the case from that lens of like, okay, what do I need to touch? What do I have to leave alone? Because there are certain things that, you know, for example, I'll give you an example of heavy metal toxicity.

  [00:37:26] Heavy metal toxicity is a really tricky one. In some cases, it will increase the risk of miscarriage. Like, hugely. I had patient once who basically had 40 times the, uh, elevated rate of what's kind of acceptable in a human. And essentially had had 8 miscarriages as a result, was coming to me to figure out, okay, why am I having miscarriage after miscarriage, even though I'm getting pregnant, she was only 30.

  [00:37:51] So we went on to identify that she had really high level of mercury toxicity, which was causing these miscarriages. And there were other [00:38:00] factors too. So we addressed all of it and we had to make a decision in her situation to actually go for medical chelation therapy. Because what ended up happening for her with that high level is that she was going to continue miscarrying.

  [00:38:13] And we also knew that chelation therapy would take a long time because it doesn't work quickly. It took us 12 months of treating her, doing chelation, doing retesting, more chelation, more retesting to actually get to a point where she could start trying to conceive again. So it's not everybody has that kind of time, which means that we might find high heavy metals in a person and have to leave it alone because literally we have two years until this is all over, right?

  [00:38:43] So it just depends on the situation and we have to make those critical clinical decisions that are going to really help the outcome that we are looking for. So it's highly personalized. So it's not. I don't have, we have a framework that we make sure that we don't leave things to chance, that we really are, you know, checking off [00:39:00] every box, but we don't have a, this is the only way that we do this because we have to ask and answer questions and address and adapt accordingly.

  [00:39:10] Michelle Oravitz: So I guess, um, my question wasn't specifically like a protocol that's customized, like for all, cause I get it. We do the same thing, but do you use, um, what kind of tools do you use

  [00:39:21] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, we use all sorts of things from, yeah, from drug therapy to herbal medicines, to nutritional supplementation, to exercise, to sleep, to diet, like, All of the things, you know, so in terms of what it is that we're going to use, we're going to use whatever it is that we need to use. You know, sometimes we find infections that we're not going to waste time trying to use.

  [00:39:42] I was just going to go straight to antibiotics. You know, because that's just the thing that's

  [00:39:47] going to give us the result the fastest. So, again, even the treatment part is going to be very, I guess, personalized to whatever it is that that person needs, because at the end of [00:40:00] the day, I want speed.

  [00:40:01] I want speed and I want effectiveness.

  [00:40:03] So it's, it's balancing all of those worlds.

  [00:40:07] Michelle Oravitz: definitely have a unique perspective though, in a sense that you use tools that are conventional and, um, a little bit more alternative and holistic. So it is a really great combination because you can get amazing results with both. Yeah.

  [00:40:25] Gabriela Rosa: way that I see it is like, we really do want to blend the best of both worlds. We don't want to say, Oh no, this is not something that we use. I'm not. Look, honestly, I am not, um, I'm not a purist. I'm not a purist, you know, like, I don't think that there's only one way to do things.

  [00:40:42] I think I always am looking for what is the best way to do something, you know, what's going to get us the outcome that we're looking for, balancing all of the constraints and challenges and situations that we have in front of us. So, but how? And I always say to my patients, I'm completely impartial as to [00:41:00] how you get pregnant.

  [00:41:00] I don't care if we have to use IUI, IVF, you know, like I don't care donor egg. That's not the thing. The thing is, if my patient comes to me and says, look, I'm, I want a baby no matter what. we are going to explore every, every opportunity to be able to do that. Then I also have some patients who come to me and say, I will only try natural conception.

  [00:41:21] I'm like, okay, cool. Let's explore and make sure that we maximize that opportunity. You know, what are the things that we need to do? But it's, it's, it's values and preferences of the patient that will determine where we go and what recommendations we will make.

  [00:41:39] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think that that ultimately just shows that you're present with your patient because that is ultimately what it is. It's not a one size fits all because then it's something that you pre craft and just give out. But when you're present with a patient, you're able to really assess what you have in front of you specifically.

  [00:41:58] One topic that I did [00:42:00] want to actually ask you about, you know, to get your thoughts, A lot of times people will come in with like, What they say, quote unquote, low AMH, which as we know, sometimes fluctuates in itself, but people get really hung up on it because in response to how their doctors get really hung up on it, and I've seen this my, in my own office is that it really doesn't make as much of.

  [00:42:25] Um, I guess the challenge is people think it does. I've seen people with very low numbers that were told that they needed egg donor conceive naturally like multiple times after that. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

  [00:42:38] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And look, you know, what happens is that AMH levels, which measures the ovarian reserve, it's measuring the hormones that are excreted by the eggs themselves, right? And so the more of AMH you have, the more eggs you're likely to have, the less AMH, the less eggs you're likely to have.

  [00:42:56] Yeah. Does it mean that if you have low AMH that you [00:43:00] can't conceive naturally and what is the best way to conceive? Well, actually, all the science shows that if you have low AMH, typically the best option for conception is actually natural conception or IUI. As opposed to IVF. Most, and this is why most women with lower MH go to their doctors and they refuse to do IVF cycles if they are good doctors.

  [00:43:23] If they just want to take their money, they might not be that kind of doctor. Right? And so the reality of it is that Low MH in itself does not preclude a woman from conceiving with her own eggs naturally. I see the same thing in my clinic. In fact, our study, our Harvard study shows that even in the very low MH category, the less than one, the one to four is low, less than one is very low.

  [00:43:47] We had the majority of patients conceive by natural conception in that category group. So very possible, very doable. However, it's not as easy as it used [00:44:00] to be. Thank you. Right. When a woman had higher AMH, and this is also part of the reason why you need to make sure that you're addressing the full context of the patient, because a woman's ovarian reserve is just going to, it's going to decline at the time, no matter what.

  [00:44:15] And if you're treating the wrong problem, i. e. let's say, for example, we have very poor sperm quantity, quality, you know, all of those things. And you are continually treating the woman because she has low ovarian reserve. Well, you're actually leaving a lot on the table because she probably with a better sperm partner would actually have already conceived.

  [00:44:40] And so it's about understanding, again, this is where I always say fertility is a team sport. And I say that for a reason. You can't expect that a woman with lower age is going to conceive with crappy sperm. If you have a lower age, what you need is superhero sperm, right? And so it's, and [00:45:00] men's sperm quality decreases over time as women's fertility decreases over time.

  [00:45:05] So it's a, it's a matter of understanding. What it means, like, for example, if you have just low AMH and your FSH is normal on day two, then you have a much better chance of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby, whether it's naturally or any other way, than a woman who has low AMH and high FSH.

  [00:45:25] Because then, if you're having high FSH, it's telling you that already on day two, your ovaries are already struggling to release the eggs that are remaining. So that tells me that, again, IVF is definitely not the best option, and you need to figure out, okay, what else is there that you can, what are the levers that you can pull, because probably egg quality is not going to be enough.

  [00:45:51] Right? And so then you have to address and adjust treatment accordingly. But just as a full answer to your question, just as a, as a very big [00:46:00] summary, Lower MH does not mean that you can't conceive. It does signal the onset of perimenopause. Typically ovarian reserve lowers quite significantly five to ten years before menopause, and particularly for women who smoke, that happens even five years before women who don't smoke.

  [00:46:21] So it's certainly if you, if you are trying to get pregnant and you smoke, well, you better stop. Right now, because you are definitely almost kind of poisoning your chances of taking a healthy pregnancy to term at any point, like you're literally certainly decreasing your chances by at least five years compared to non smoking counterparts.

  [00:46:45] And if your partner smokes secondary, you know, kind of smoke is also going to be a problem. So, and of course, that's going to be a problem for sperm. So there's all of those, those contexts as well that we have to take into account. But yeah, it's, it doesn't [00:47:00] necessarily translate that low AMH means no baby or low AMH means that it must be a donor egg situation.

  [00:47:06] We had patients, and again, this is in our analysis, the majority of patients who had low AMH were told that they needed to have donor egg. We, in the entire sample of 544 patients, we only had 5. 6%. actually need donor egg. So, and the majority were consuming naturally. So, you know, I take that with a very large grain of salt.

  [00:47:29] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And this is why you have to get many multiple opinions and really do your research and find the right practitioner. Maybe a couple of different practitioners. Um, but I love your approach and I think that a lot of what you're saying, um, first of all, it makes a lot of sense, but it's also, is research based and empowering for people listening.

  [00:47:54] And so for people listening who are interested or want to learn more about your work, [00:48:00] what are the things that you offer online, like

  [00:48:03] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. So

  [00:48:04] Michelle Oravitz: far away,

  [00:48:05] Gabriela Rosa: they can go to my website, which is fertilitybreakthrough. com and they can also search my name, which is Gabriella Rosa, G A B R I E L A R O S A. Um, they will find, I have my book, Fertility Breakthrough, Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage When Other Treatments Have Failed free on YouTube and Spotify.

  [00:48:25] So they'll be able to get the audio version there. It's also available on Amazon and every other bookseller. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we have the free fertility challenge program that is designed for couples who want to overcome infertility and miscarriage, and most importantly, want to find answers, you know, and want to know what it is that they need to do and how to personalize their journey so that they can hold their baby sooner,

  [00:48:48] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, and you work one on one as well, right?

  [00:48:51] Gabriela Rosa: our team does absolutely. So, yes.

  [00:48:54] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, Gabriella, this is an amazing conversation. I've seen you [00:49:00] around before. I've looked at your information before we spoke and I was very impressed and this exceeded my expectations. So thank you so much for coming on.

  [00:49:10] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure.

  [00:49:13]

EP 326 How Stress Impacts Fertility and What You Can Do About It

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Alice Domar, a pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine and a leader in reproductive health psychology. Dr. Domar shares insights from her decades of research and work with patients experiencing infertility, diving deep into the emotional and physical toll of fertility challenges and how stress can impact reproductive outcomes.

We discuss the groundbreaking research that links stress reduction to increased fertility success rates, the importance of patient-centered care, and how mind-body practices can transform the fertility journey. Dr. Domar also shares her thoughts on spirituality, the power of connection, and how fostering a sense of belonging can help patients navigate the emotional rollercoaster of infertility. This episode is packed with valuable insights and hope for anyone on the fertility journey.

Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation!
 

Guest Bio:

 Alice “Ali” Domar, Ph.D. is a pioneer in mind-body medicine, focusing on the relationship between stress, medical conditions, and lifestyle habits. She is Chief Compassion Officer at Inception Fertility, part-time associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of Conquering Infertility and Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom and serves on advisory boards for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. Her work has been featured in Redbook, Health, and BeWell.com.
 

Websites/Social Media Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inceptionfertility/

Website: https://inceptionfertility.com/about-us/our-team/

Website: https://www.preludefertility.com/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle: Episode number 326 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Alice Domar. Dr. Domar is a pioneer in the field of mind body medicine. She conducts ongoing groundbreaking research, which focuses on the relationship between stress and various medical conditions, as well as the impact of lifestyle habits on mental and physical health.

  [00:00:26] She 2022 as chief compassion officer. She is also an associate professor in obstetrics, gynecology, and reproductive biology part time at Harvard Medical School and a senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of numerous books including Conquering Infertility and her latest book, Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom.

  [00:00:54] She's on the advisory board for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. [00:01:00] She has been on the board of experts for Luminary and a columnist for Redbook and Health Magazines. She was also a featured expert on the online social network, BeWell. com.

  [00:01:11] 

  [00:01:32] Michelle: /Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Domar. I am so excited to have you back.

  [00:01:38] Alice: I hear That just made my day, thank you.

  [00:01:42] Michelle: Well, I really enjoyed our first talk and it was a while ago, but for people listening and haven't heard of you, which I think is actually very few, because I think a lot of people, most people that I talk to know who you are. but I would love for you to share your background and how you got into such [00:02:00] an important aspect of the work of the fertility journey.

  [00:02:04] Alice: So it started with my parents, actually. So it took my parents, I think, seven years to get pregnant with my older sister and another five years to get pregnant with me. And there was almost nothing available in those days. I mean, literally my mom said that she had to go once a month to have air blown up her tubes, which just sounds disgusting.

  [00:02:23] Anyway. So while I was growing up, she talked about it. How lonely she was. I mean, this was, you know, in the fifties and sixties when everybody was having five or six kids and how awful a period of her life it was. And so that just sort of permeated into my soul. And when I got a PhD in health psychology and I, I sort of, my focus was OBGYN and it just felt very natural.

  [00:02:48] to go into the infertility field. And, you know, I have done a lot of research and it was funny because I just saw an interview was just published in Slate a couple of days ago, talking about one of the [00:03:00] first studies I did that showed that women with infertility had the same levels of anxiety and depression as women with cancer, AIDS, or heart disease.

  [00:03:08] And people are still talking about that study and it was published in the New York Times. easily 25 years ago. And we, you know, and there's since been other research, which backs that up. Like, in fact, you know, you and I were just chatting about the pandemic. I was part of a study that, you know, Boston got hit really hard because there was a Biogen conference, must have been in early March, of international Employees and one of the employees was from China and infected all 70 people who was at that conference and it turned out that 300, 000 people ended up getting COVID from that one person.

  [00:03:44] So Boston was hit very hard. Yeah, it was terrible. And the board of health shut down all the IVF programs. And so our patients were frantic. And so we thought, you know. Let's find out what's worse for our patients, infertility or the pandemic. And it was [00:04:00] infertility, which didn't surprise me at all because I've been working with infertility patients for almost 40 years, you know, it started out that I wanted to document how stressed our patients are, were, because. No one out there seems to get it, still, after 40 years. But I've also been trying my whole career, not only to figure out how stressed patients are, but also what are the best ways to relieve that stress.

  [00:04:29] And if you relieve that stress, the pregnancy rates go up.

  [00:04:32] So that's the whole bandwidth. And, you know, I took this new job two and a half years ago, which gives me the, Access and power to actually do the research and, change patient care the way I've always wanted to

  [00:04:46] Michelle: mean, I just love that so much because I think that a lot of us do, I think people in general or society and also the systems, like they don't really take things seriously until you present them with proof. [00:05:00] Facts and research. and the thing is, you obviously had a feeling or hunch that it was so before you did the research, which is what caused you to do research, which I personally think is also an important aspect of all of this.

  [00:05:13] But unfortunately we need the research. not unfortunate, fortunately, really to kind of make it more real

  [00:05:19] in 

  [00:05:20] Alice: make, to make, doctors and patients believe in the mind body connection, you know, because, you know, I spent 17 years working with her Benson and all his research was trying to prove a mind body connection. 

  [00:05:33] And I want to, 

  [00:05:33] Michelle: the mindfulness based, uh, stress reduction.

  [00:05:37] Alice: no, that was Jon Kabat Zinn.

  [00:05:39] Her, her Benson was, he was, he died a couple of years ago. He was famous for the relaxation response. And I think he's kind of, he and Joan Borisenko sort of started the field of behavioral medicine. and anyway, I, I worked with them for 17 years and got fully entrenched in the whole mind body connection, not just in women's health, but in heart disease and cancer [00:06:00] and AIDS and pretty much everything, Any disease that's made worse by stress can be made better by different mind body strategies. So I just happen to want to focus on women's health, and again, when I think back, my mom said that when she was trying to get pregnant for the first time, they put her on the equivalent of Valium, and she got pregnant. So, clearly, I've had a bias, you know, my entire life that stress impacts fertility.

  [00:06:28] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, it's interesting. My mom also, suffered with secondary infertility with me. So I always say I'm kind of like the proof that a woman knew in her heart that she was supposed to conceive. And she told me she, every time I ask her, she goes. Every single time I got my period, I cried, she would just tell me these stories.

  [00:06:46] And it's like, as soon as I ask her, she's right back there, you know, remembering those moments just how fearful she was also throughout the pregnancy. And that's another thing. I know you wrote a book about that. And I think that that's kind of like a whole other chapter, which we'll [00:07:00] get to, you know, people's journeys really is that it doesn't necessarily end at the positive pregnancy stick.

  [00:07:06] So

  [00:07:07] Alice: it starts, it 

  [00:07:09] Michelle: yes, yes, 

  [00:07:10] Alice: You know, that's the surprise for my patients. I mean, I still have a small private practice, but, you know, for most infertility patients, they think all I need is a positive pregnancy test. But that's actually when the anxiety starts to really skyrocket.

  [00:07:25] Michelle: Yeah, I see that a lot with my patients. I do acupuncture, it's very similar. And of course, just going through everything with them and every single, I mean, I have not yet met anybody who doesn't feel stressed or anxious during the pregnancy. And that's why I always reiterate it to them. Like, you are not alone.

  [00:07:47] Like, I don't think I've met anybody that wasn't going through this. This is completely normal. And I, you know, it's just part of the process, but it's all about strategy. And I know you talked about just like tools and different things that you can do, but [00:08:00] before we even get to that, I would love for people to know, like, what is mind body, like, if you can really break it down, what are the components of mind body and like, what does it entail?

  [00:08:09] Alice: So basically there's no division between our brain and our body. And so our thoughts affect our body and our body affects our thoughts or emotions. And, you know, they're researchers and, every system of the body, I just happened to have focused on women's health. And so, for example, we know that stress makes PMS worse.

  [00:08:29] We know that stress makes menopause symptoms worse. We know I. believe that stress contributes to fertility issues. And so there's no division. I mean, there's, there's a constant communication between the brain and the body. And so to think that your thoughts and emotions and experiences and activities don't have an impact on your body is really naive.

  [00:08:54] And, you know, I have spent my whole career trying to prove that stress [00:09:00] decreases fertility and that stress reduction increases fertility. And there are a lot of people who think I'm nuts and make fun of me and criticize me. And, you know, when I used to go to the fertility meetings, People would shun me, but I can tell you lately, since I've now been doing research that's showing, yeah, actually there is a connection.

  [00:09:21] Now I get treated better.

  [00:09:23] Michelle: Well, it's crazy because you can actually explain it. I mean, like, the more I dug into it, the more you can explain it. I mean, Your nervous system, it really, a lot of it comes down to the nervous system. And the nervous system doesn't feel safe. It gets into fight or flight. It takes away the blood from the organs to the limbs.

  [00:09:40] And, and what does that do? It impacts also the blood that flows through the uterus and the ovaries. And so that's just one aspect of it. Then another thing is cortisol. Like when that increases, actually. It competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for pregnancy, for implantation, for uterine lining.

  [00:09:58] So there's so many [00:10:00] actually explanations and then it can impact sleep, which also impacts hormones. So it's just like one after the next, it was like, you can really break it down.

  [00:10:09] Alice: It's just, it's very hard to convince people because I think maybe not so much now, but 20 years ago, most physicians believed that the medication and the surgery and everything else they did could control all aspects of reproduction. And I remember. easily 25 years ago, a colleague and I were giving a talk to a group of infertility doctors about all the research, even then showing the impact of stress on the reproductive system and the impact of stress reduction on fertility rates.

  [00:10:42] And one of the physicians actually said, I don't care how many studies you show me. I do not believe That the brain is more powerful than what we do with medications and surgery.

  [00:10:52] Michelle: Hmm.

  [00:10:52] it's interesting how people take a stance.

  [00:10:55] Alice: and again, I think younger physicians, I mean, you know, I was a boss in IVF for 20 years and they had a [00:11:00] fellowship program and it was awesome for me because I got to have input on how they were trained and how they thought. And one of the fellows who's now a practicing infertility doctor actually did his big research study on the impact of.

  [00:11:18] empathy on how patients felt. So, you know, the more impact or input one can have on young physicians or physicians in training, the better it's going to be for patients. Because I presented a study in October at ASRM showing that what patients want, In terms of patient centered care is really quite different from what physicians want.

  [00:11:44] I mean, sorry, what different from a physician's think patients want.

  [00:11:49] Michelle: Right. sometimes they think that just cause here's the thing, there's this argument and I hear this a lot, like, well, I don't really need necessarily need a doctor that has bedside [00:12:00] manners. I just want someone who knows what they're doing and I don't care how they're treating me or talking or whatever.

  [00:12:05] And I'm not so much with fertility. I'm not, I'm saying this like a conversation with my cousin about like, you know, a gastroenterologist, 

  [00:12:13] things like that. Right. 

  [00:12:14] Yeah. But, talk to us about the research, first of all, like, cause I feel like it does make an impact actually, how they're treated.

  [00:12:23] Alice: So it's, it was a study funded by MD Serrano on patient centered care because all of the research out there was done in Europe and all over the world and had not a single study had ever been done in the U S. And. The study that I pay the most attention to, or had paid the most attention to, on patient centered care, where they compared patients and physicians, and this is, I think it was out of France, that it showed that patients prioritized patient centered care over pregnancy rates.

  [00:12:54] And they were willing to sacrifice a 10 percent drop in pregnancy rate for more patient centered [00:13:00] care. While physicians said, oh God, no. All patients care about is getting pregnant. And so I've literally bopped around the world for the last 10 years saying to physicians and practice managers and nurses, patients really want patient centered care.

  [00:13:15] Like this is really important that you care for patients. And yet our study of over a thousand patients. And I think we had 39 of our physicians, showed that patients want to get pregnant and physicians think. They want this compassionate care with nice environment, blah, blah. Now, apparently in the, in the US, at least, you know, amongst inception prelude clinics, which are all over the country, highest priority for our patients is, is pregnancy. So that's very different from Europe.

  [00:13:44] Michelle: yeah, here's my question though. I have heard, correct me if I'm wrong, or let me know if you've heard of this study. There was something that I heard about, but I haven't actually seen myself. It's kind of one of those hearsay, about [00:14:00] how people who have doctors who believe in their journey or have like a little bit more, you know, belief in them doing well, that can impact how they actually do.

  [00:14:10] So there's like kind of this positive or sort of belief in a person's ability to do well. Mm

  [00:14:16] Alice: Well, that would add to me, I haven't heard of that study, but it would add to my hypothesis that stress Decreases treatment outcomes and having a physician who believes in you and is encouraging and, and positive is going to make the patient less stressed and they're probably more optimistic as they go through a treatment cycle.

  [00:14:35] And I think that will help them get pregnant.

  [00:14:39] Michelle: No doubt. And I know that, there's also a study that was done on laughter and after transfers.

  [00:14:46] Alice: Oh, it was done out of Israel. It was a great study. It was, 

  [00:14:50] I think It was, 

  [00:14:51] it was, it was, they had, I think it was actually a randomized controlled trial and I thought it was awesome. But on alternate days, they had a clown in the recovery [00:15:00] room. So for women after transfer, you know, while they're waking up and recovering, they got to see a clown and their pregnancy rates were higher, significantly higher.

  [00:15:09] So 

  [00:15:09] Michelle: Wow. That's incredible. It's just amazing.

  [00:15:12] Alice: so many studies now. I mean, it's very difficult to do research to prove that stress impacts, for example, IVF outcome, because up until the study that I'm doing that we just finished, we're handing patients like paper and pencil questionnaires. Like how anxious are you? How depressed are you?

  [00:15:30] And there are a lot of factors that, that are going to influence that. You know, one is, you know, at what point did you measure their stress or anxiety? Was it three months before their cycle? Was it the day before egg retrieval? And that makes a difference. Also, patients tend to be very optimistic right before they start an IVF cycle because you have to be optimistic to put yourself through it.

  [00:15:52] In addition, Most patients, at least in the U. S., they know their prognosis. They know how old they are. Right now, they know what their [00:16:00] AMH level. Their physician has probably shown them on a computer what their chances are. And so, if you've got a 25 year old with blocked tubes, her physician's going to say, Wow, you are so likely to get pregnant.

  [00:16:12] And so she's going to start her cycle being Very optimistic, probably not depressed, not anxious. And if she gets pregnant, is it because she's 25 or because she wasn't anxious compared to a 44 year old whose AMH is barely detectable, whose physician is like, yeah, your chances are almost null. She's going to be very anxious and depressed.

  [00:16:31] So you, you can't use paper and pencil questionnaires because they're just too subjective. And patients also fake good because they want their physician to think they can cope with a cycle. And are they really going to report how incredibly depressed and anxious they are? So we're working with this company in Canada called Otto that makes this little device that for the study, actually, it was like a little circle thing.

  [00:16:56] They were on a, on a band around their waist for about three minutes every [00:17:00] morning. I think now they're converting it. I think it to a bracelet or a ring. So it'd be much easier for us to do research, but anyway, so we recruited 240 women who are about to start their first IBS cycle. And this device.

  [00:17:13] actually measures central nervous system and cardiovascular parameters. So for the first time, we're really getting true physiological feedback on patients stress levels. And we had them wear the band for a week before the first IVF cycle, for the two weeks of STEM, and for the four weeks of their frozen embryo transfer cycle.

  [00:17:35] So we have, and the, the, the device actually collects, I think, 54. different physiological measures of, of stress. And so we presented at, ASRM in October, just the first amount of results we had, which simply compared how the patients were at baseline. So the seven days before their IVF cycle compared to how [00:18:00] they were during the stimulation phase of the cycle.

  [00:18:02] And The results, I, I've been doing research for almost 40 years. I have never seen statistically significant levels like that. Like to be statistically significant, it has to be less than 0. 05 and our levels were like 0. 00001. So what that showed was going through the STEM phase. Like when patients are self injecting with gadadotropins is insanely stressful on the body.

  [00:18:30] And in fact, we had a number, we just act, we actually just had to notify a number of patients who developed cardiac arrhythmias during the STEM phase. Because they were so stressed. Yeah, that's how stressful and no one has really paid attention to how hard it is You know the physical and psychological burden of doing an IVF cycle.

  [00:18:52] So now we actually have Physiological proof. I

  [00:18:56] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, I've said this before. I've said this to my [00:19:00] patients. Cause like your body, you know, when you hear like really loud noises. Okay. Your mind knows, Oh, that's just the truck that's moving, you know, like the fire truck, but your body could still respond completely different, almost like a animalistic.

  [00:19:16] So if your body's constantly getting prodded and poked and, you know, Your body's gonna go under stress. It's gonna feel like what's going on. I don't feel safe. Something's off Yeah

  [00:19:28] Alice: it means total stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system

  [00:19:32] And so now we have all this data. We're actually we have a meeting tomorrow, to look at because there are 3 sets of data. 1 is the difference between baseline and stem. The 2nd, 1, the difference between. Baseline and STEM and IVF success rates.

  [00:19:50] And the third is, can their stress level at baseline predict outcome as well as things like age and [00:20:00] AMH and BMI? So we, we're going to, I have to write all these manuscripts in the next few months and I can't talk about the results yet, but it's going to be incredibly valuable data. And then we're starting our second study where we're going to do a randomized controlled trial where patients.

  [00:20:15] All the patients, sorry, half the patients get the device and the device, we can turn it in such a way that they get feedback as to how physiologically stressed they are. And it literally is like, you know, red, light, yellow, green. And then it gives them, if they're in the red or yellow zone, here are things you can do.

  [00:20:35] And it's like biofeedback. And so we'll see if we can reduce a patient's stress during her IVF cycle to pregnancy rates go up. And I'm guessing. The answer is yes, because all the psychological, I can't say all, the most recent meta analyses where you just sort of take data from a bunch of studies have consistently shown that [00:21:00] women who are randomized to some kind of psychological intervention have higher pregnancy rates. So how can you say stress doesn't play a role?

  [00:21:11] Michelle: no, it absolutely does have you heard of heart math

  [00:21:14] Alice: No.

  [00:21:16] Michelle: Oh, you would love this.

  [00:21:19] Oh my gosh, you would really, really love it. Okay. So HeartMath Institute is basically it's a, they, it's an organization that does research on the role and the relationship of the heart and the brain. And the heart actually has a much larger electromagnet.

  [00:21:38] Uh, frequency than the brain does. 

  [00:21:40] And there is such a thing as heart brain coherence and also the heart rate variability shows, I'm sure you've heard of that. It like shows just the heart health. Chinese medicine has been saying this for thousands of years that the heart houses the mind. And so, But you never really understood what that meant until now.

  [00:21:58] And they actually [00:22:00] have data and they have a biofeedback devices, which I highly recommend. I think that you would really, uh, find good use for this because what happens is that basically they put it on their ear and they connect it to an app and it will, record and measure their heart rate variability, and it will also record and measure their heart brain coherence.

  [00:22:23] So what they found was that the more coherent the heart and brain are, the more we feel like levels of peace, safety, calm, ease, we can think more clearly, and the more erratic and incoherent our the relationship between the heart and the brain, the more, almost like disconnected, we feel, I guess that that's the best way to say it.

  [00:22:43] It's almost like they're, they're disconnected when we're disconnected from the heart. You know, all these things that we've been hearing for like years and years and years, but it's actually shown now is showing to be true. It's being revealed almost to be able to measure it. And so there are certain things that people can do [00:23:00] and one of them being breathing really deep and slow and connecting with that heart space so that you're breathing really deep into the heart and and then thinking about things that you love.

  [00:23:10] So similar to like the meta meditation, the loving kindness meditation, really having that connection, that oxytocin that provides a sense of feeling safe and so having that. has been shown, and that's one of the exercises that they have on the program, has been shown to help increase the coherence between the heart and the brain.

  [00:23:32] So I find that really fascinating. And, Chinese medicine, the heart actually has a very important role on the uterus. So, and oxytocin increases around labor time, so it's, it's considered to be something that opens the uterus. This is something that I would love to talk to you about one day because I love this kind of stuff.

  [00:23:52] And so I'm wondering, it hasn't really been studied a lot for conception, but it increases around ovulation. A woman's, [00:24:00] oxytocin increases and it increases after orgasm. Why? If it didn't have any role in conception. So that's kind of like my hypothesis.

  [00:24:09] Alice: I a thousand percent agree with you, and it's ironic that this research we're doing is reassessing the heart and the brain.

  [00:24:16] Michelle: Interesting. Oh, wow. Incredible. Oh, I love this stuff. So when the research comes out, is it on your website? Is that the best place to find it?

  [00:24:25] Alice: I suspect when it's published, our PR team is going to go crazy and

  [00:24:29] Michelle: Good. Well, let me know because if, if it is, I'll have you back. Like I love this stuff. This stuff is really so important. I think for people to hear, I think people need to hear this because I think it empowers them.

  [00:24:42] Alice: Well, I think, you know, for people, for any woman, man, anybody going through infertility or infertility treatment, and I know we talk about women all the time, but you know, stress affects sperm production. Acupuncture helps sperm production. 

  [00:24:55] Michelle: Yep.

  [00:24:55] Alice: the naysayers who are saying to me, Oh, there's no relationship between [00:25:00] stress and reproductive outcome.

  [00:25:01] I'll say to them, okay, but you can believe that if you want, but what's the downside of offering our patients ways to relieve their stress? Because going through an IVF cycle is really hard. Going through infertility is really hard. Trying on your own is really hard. I mean, as I said, it's equivalent. To cancer patients.

  [00:25:20] It was equivalent to the beginning of the pandemic or is worse than the pandemic. So our patients women and men who are going through infertility are suffering and there was a study at a UCSF by Laurie

  [00:25:33] Pash, 

  [00:25:34] who's, 

  [00:25:34] Michelle: They're suffering.

  [00:25:35] Alice: and you know, the majority of men and women in, in their, who came to their clinic, the majority of men and women had psychiatric levels of anxiety, The majority of women had psychiatric levels of depression and about a third of the men had depression.

  [00:25:51] So, we're talking about the majority of the people who are going for treatment are miserable. And why, I mean, you know, got [00:26:00] to Inception Prelude two and a half years ago. I'm the Chief Compassion Officer. And so I've been spending the last two and a half years trying to implement ways to improve the patient experience?

  [00:26:14] I mean, how can we relieve stress? In our patients in a much better way than it's been going on for the last 50 years.

  [00:26:22] Michelle: I love that. I think it's so important. I mean, it's, I feel like you're answering a huge call. Like really, really, really, you know, it's interesting. I really think that you would love Dr. Lisa Miller's work. slightly different. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's written, she actually went through her own fertility journey and she has a TEDx talk, fascinating story.

  [00:26:41] She talks about like just her own journey and. How she, she ended up adopting and she felt like this calling to adopt. And, uh, the moment she adopted, she conceived, but she knew that she had to adopt in order to conceive because she was meant to be with her adoptive child. It was, it's a really fascinating story, her, her [00:27:00] own personal story, but she wrote a book called the awakened brain.

  [00:27:03] And so she studies, in, in, uh, Columbia University, she actually does research on the brain on spirituality and how spirituality impacts the brain and believing in something that's higher than ourselves, how that actually protects the brain from depression.

  [00:27:19] Alice: Well, let me tell you about a study I participated in many years ago. So, you know, I used to run these, my body groups like for 25 years and, you know, 10 week programs for women going through infertility. And because I was at a teaching hospital at Harvard Medical School, you know, we had interns and residents.

  [00:27:39] So for two years we had a psych intern who was getting her PhD. And she happened to be a woman, I think at that point, probably in her 70s, who in her 40s became an ordained Episcopalian minister. And then I think in her late 60s decided to get a PhD in psychology. And so she was my intern for two years and she sat through my body groups [00:28:00] and the issue of God and God punishing and you know, what have I done comes up a lot in infertility and because I'm not.

  [00:28:08] trained in pastoral counseling, there wasn't a whole lot I could do, but having her in my groups, the patients love talking to her about that. Anyway, so for her dissertation, her dissertation was really to solve an argument that the two of us were having, in that I felt that deeply religious women suffered more with their infertility because they believed God was punishing them. And she believed that deeply religious women suffered less because they believed in a higher power. So her dissertation, you know, we were, I don't remember how many patients she recruited and she assessed their religiosity, their spirituality, and their distress. And I was wrong.

  [00:28:54] Michelle: That's interesting.

  [00:28:55] Alice: Yeah. So the more religious and spiritual the [00:29:00] woman was, the less distressed she was by her infertility.

  [00:29:04] So, So, and, and again, very statistically significant when you published it. and so I, I, I encourage my patients who may have left. The religion of their childhood to say, you know what? Maybe explore other options. Explore your spirituality. You know, if you grew up Catholic and you just don't want to be part of the Catholic church, you know, go to an Episcopalian church or Unitarian church or, you know, because having faith, having spirituality, believing in a higher power.

  [00:29:33] may provide some comfort to you.

  [00:29:36] Michelle: Right. And actually, Dr. Lisa Miller says it's not necessarily religion,

  [00:29:40] Alice: Right. 

  [00:29:41] Michelle: it's spirituality. It's really just connecting and it's, it really comes down to this. It's connecting to something that, you know, you can lean on almost like a, there's something higher that's able to, Protect you in some way or like give you guidance.

  [00:29:55] But it's one of, it's become like one of the top questions I ask [00:30:00] when I first start working with people, I ask, do you have some kind of practice where you're able to connect or some it's you do too, yeah.

  [00:30:09] Alice: And I, you know, and again, you know, I'm in Boston where we have a huge Catholic population and a lot of young women. don't practice Catholicism anymore. And so I encourage them to pursue other ways to encourage spirit and not necessarily religiosity, but, you know, I've had a lot of patients, you know, go to, for example, Unitarian Church and feel a deep sense of belonging and comfort and inclusion.

  [00:30:36] And, you know, I was watching the today show this morning and they had a psychiatrist on who was talking about how hard it is these days to make friends because of social media and how the older you are, the harder it is to make friends. And we all need connections and infertility patients tend to really isolate themselves from family and friends who are pregnant or have kids.

  [00:30:57] And so it worries me how [00:31:00] isolated our patients become. And so if they can get some kind of connection from some form of spirituality, think that's great. 

  [00:31:09] Michelle: Yeah. And actually, as a matter of fact, I've been, um, inspired lately to form more, groups. like a zoom calls for free for my patients just to, so they can connect with each other because I'm like, I'm thinking like, there's so many times I'm like, you should talk to this one. This one should talk to this one because I feel like they really, and they thirst for it.

  [00:31:29] As soon as I want to connect them. Oh my God. Yes, please give them my number. You know, they're really excited about that. So I think that community is so healing and really that connection. I think that was one of the biggest, Issues during the pandemic. I think that that was the biggest, you know, impact.

  [00:31:45] Obviously it was you know, people getting sick, but it was also that social isolation, how much we need each other. We just need people.

  [00:31:53] Alice: Remember people made little bubbles? it was, it was so great was there had already been research showing that [00:32:00] Like zoom therapy was just as effective as one on one. And so we had to switch our mind body groups to being online and they were just as effective. And, Inception dash prelude is doing a new program for our patients in conjunction with pulling down the moon, which is a yoga, based company in Chicago.

  [00:32:21] And. they, not we, they have created this online program for our patients that's like half yoga and half support group. And I think we hit almost 500 patients in a row in the first couple of weeks. 

  [00:32:32] Michelle: Wow. 

  [00:32:33] Alice: I have not seen a single negative comment at the patients. I mean, they love the yoga because it's, it gives them, you know, relaxation.

  [00:32:41] It keeps them fit and toned, et cetera, but they really love the support group. 

  [00:32:46] Michelle: That's amazing. 

  [00:32:47] Alice: they love connecting with other people. So,

  [00:32:51] Michelle: I love that. So for people listening, I mean, I can pick your brain for like literally hours. And I want to talk to you actually after, because it's just, [00:33:00] I, I find what you're doing so exciting and we're also at a time where things are really exciting. I think we're really discovering a lot about ourselves and the power that we hold as humans, like kind of, we're wired.

  [00:33:12] Really amazingly. And I think that we just don't even know how to tap into it. So for people listening to this and saying, okay, I really do want to connect with like some kind of practice that will help me get through this really difficult journey, what are some tips on how people can get started? Mm

  [00:33:31] Alice: well, you know, ASRM, which is the American Society of Reproductive Medicine has about 700 mental health professionals who are basically reproductive mental health professionals. So if you want one, one on one or couples counseling, Those are the people you should go to because they actually know what infertility is about.

  [00:33:49] And so if you go in and say something like IUI or PGT or AMH, they're going to know what that means, which is really important for patients. I mean, I happen to think that this new [00:34:00] half yoga, half support group is just a really great thing because it tackles the mind and the body. And I think most people going through infertility are feeling incredibly isolated.

  [00:34:11] Resolve, which is the National Infertility Organization, has support groups, I think, in just about every state, because I think tackling loneliness and isolation is really important because, you know, infertility impacts every aspect of their lives and if they're in a relationship, it's going to impact their relationship, their sex life, their family, their friends, their job, their financial security, their self esteem, their body image.

  [00:34:35] And No one should be going through that alone.

  [00:34:40] Michelle: Absolutely. No one should be going through that alone. And I think that also feeling like you're the only person going through that. I think when you have other people that can share or understand you on a level that like, maybe you won't see in your normal, like day to day is incredible. It's an incredible [00:35:00] gift.

  [00:35:00] To have that relatability. So, I think that just what you bring up is so important. I am a huge fan of you and your work and what you do. I think, honestly, I there are certain people that I have on the podcast that I just feel like . I feel like you're God sent, like I really do. I I do. I I feel like that some people are just kind of, they're, they're answering a greater call that's gonna impact so many people.

  [00:35:25] Alice: Okay. 

  [00:35:25] Michelle: Yeah, 

  [00:35:26] Alice: so, you know, I'm going to get off this podcast and go tell my husband that I'm a godsend and 

  [00:35:30] Michelle: yes, you do that and tell them I said, I said, so, so, so for people listening to this, and I'm sure people are going to be really like, just amazed at a lot of the things that you shared and intrigued to learn more. How can they find out more about you? How can they find out more about the studies when they do come and kind of like, where should they go to look out for those?

  [00:35:56] Alice: I'd say everything, everything is on the Prelude website. So P R [00:36:00] E L U D, I think it's prelude. com.

  [00:36:02] Um, 

  [00:36:03] okay. Yeah, so everything we offer our patients, and actually one thing that I'm hoping will be offered to, well I know is going to be offered to our patients and I'm hoping more is, I wrote a book about 25 years ago called Conquering Infertility.

  [00:36:17] And so our chief marketing officer said, you know what, I really want to, you know, offer this book to all of our patients, but it was 25 years old. And so it was definitively medically outdated as well as the names of the patients that we quoted, like popular names 25 years ago are now popular names now anyway.

  [00:36:37] So I actually spent the summer revising the book

  [00:36:40] Michelle: Oh, awesome.

  [00:36:41] Alice: and So hopefully in the next month or two, all of Prelude patients will get a copy of the book. And I'm hoping the publisher is also going to make it available to anybody who wants one because it's literally the mind body program in a book. And it's got a [00:37:00] zillion patient stories.

  [00:37:01] We interviewed a lot of my patients just talking about how they felt, how they coped, what worked for them, what didn't work for them. Because I can either see one patient at a time, or you can offer programs that can offer or books or whatever to help a lot of other people.

  [00:37:18] Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And that's such a gift. Honestly, it's such a gift. And I think the stories, hold so much power too. So I, I love that you have stories in there. For people to hear, because I think when people see examples and say, okay, like I'm not the only one going through this and it can actually shift and change.

  [00:37:35] And I do have power. And, and then also, you know, sometimes stories that are not always like exactly how we want them to come out, but we can share in that. So I think that that is really powerful and I appreciate you coming on today. I really enjoyed our conversation.

  [00:37:51] Alice: Thanks for inviting me.

  [00:37:52] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] Description text goes here

EP 325 The Role of Intuition, Energy, and Neutrality in Fertility Wellness | Lindsay Goodwin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle and Lindsay Goodwin @fertilefrequencies explore the intersection of spirituality and fertility, discussing Lindsay's journey as an intuitive medium and healer. They delve into the concept of spirit babies, the emotional and subconscious factors affecting fertility, and the importance of surrendering to the process. The discussion emphasizes the integration of mind-body techniques and the role of emotions in manifesting desires, particularly in the context of fertility. Lindsay shares insights from her new podcast,'Fertile Frequencies,' aimed at providing support and guidance for those on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Lindsay Goodwin is a fertility support and reproductive medicine pioneer who uniquely blends spiritual and energy healing techniques with scientific approaches for a truly holistic experience. With credentials as a certified master life coach for self-mastery, a certified NLP therapist, a hypnotherapist, a licensed acupuncturist, and a board-certified herbalist, Lindsay brings a unique comprehensive approach to health, personal growth, and awakening the power within.

As a certified fellow on ABORM and a spiritual fertility medium, Lindsay uniquely empowers clients to overcome health, emotional, and mindset challenges. She achieves this through a blend of evidence-based practices and energy tools, helping individuals overwhelmed by stress, life demands, and fertility obstacles to conquer anxieties, setbacks, and past traumas. Her work fosters new patterns that usher in joy, fulfillment, freedom, and the renewed energy to hope.

Lindsay's profound personal transformation further enriches her expertise. A near-death experience prompted her awakening to the divine power within us all, leading her to integrate science, consciousness, and the unseen energies for healing and abundance. Her leadership in higher consciousness, mindset, and physical health has guided countless individuals to reclaim their lives and achieve a state of harmony, growth, and fulfillment, and to know that they are so much more than just their physical bodies!

IG: @fertilefrequencies 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FertileFrequencies

Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7usDvORdMFGzO2EILBsBju

Website: https://garnetmoonlove.com/the-empowered-fertile-code-program/

Free Gift - Fertile Affirmations & Spirit Baby Connection: https://lindsay-goodwin-garnet-moon.mykajabi.com/fertile-affirmations-audio

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript: 

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast Lindsay.

Lindsay Goodwin (00:03)

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Michelle.

Michelle (00:06)

Well, I love having you. We just had a whole long pre-talk. We just always connected. I always connected with you like from day one. So, and I love just seeing how you're progressing as a practitioner. And also as I was reading her bio, I mean, I really feel very aligned with how you see your healing, how you approach things, how you are staying in your truth with the

connection that you feel to spirit and also acknowledging how important that is in the healing process. And I think that, and we talked about this, there's this whole science versus this, it could be both. And I think that now we are moving into a place where we're actually bridging a lot of what has been shown that is sort of, it's being revealed almost like all the things that the ancients have been talking about for thousands of years.

is now starting to become revealed through science. And it's kind of interesting how that is happening right now in this time that we're living. We're starting to see a lot of things, even that the heart houses the mind through heart math, those kinds of things about coherence and how our heart is the the creative center and all of these different things, which I'm sure you're also very into. So I would love for you to just a quick

I mean, you've been on here before, but just a quick like background on you and how you got into this work and how you also in your own spirit, your own journey, connected with spirit and realized the importance of that when it comes to healing.

Lindsay Goodwin (01:51)

Yeah, well, Michelle, thank you so much. And absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. We are definitely so aligned and I absolutely love the work that you're doing as well. And it's absolutely wonderful to meet other practitioners, healers, providers that are on the same path and are here to really help so many people that need it. So thank you so much. So really about how I got started. Well, I'm actually born intuitive medium. So as a child, I...

was very in tune almost as if I could hear people's thoughts. I just knew things that were much greater than what a three year old child because I remember about back when I was about three should know at that age and I also would see energy orbs. I just would know things about people know a lot about their emotions just was very intuitive. And so then as a child I grew up I run the age of seven is generally when we start to be conditioned and that's really when

The subconscious mind really starts to form is around the age of seven So that's when I kind of lost it and I started to try to fit into society like most of us And then when I was going through a divorce in my late 30s, I had a spiritual awakening I was actually robbed at gunpoint and during that experience I had an out-of-body experience

and I met what I refer to as God or universal energy, source energy, whatever you prefer to call it. And I was wrapped in gold light. It was almost like time had stopped. And the energy that was in the room, I do remember that it was radiating from behind the gunman that had the gun to my back. So the universe was also protecting them. So it was not only protecting me, but everyone because we are all connected. We're not separate. And so

It was really interesting to me. And there's also that saying, know, the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. The universe always has your back. So, you know, I see things very I see things symbolically, but also that was very literal, like that saying the universe always has your back. I had a gun in my back, but there was this energy that was protecting me and the gunman. So during that time, I was not thinking about what you normally would think you would think about when you're going to lose your life.

Michelle (03:45)

That's interesting.

Lindsay Goodwin (04:10)

I wasn't thinking about my family. I wasn't thinking about my dog that I had at the time. I was only thinking about what I was seeing and I was seeing angels as well as this energy that I am speaking of this gold light. And I saw one of my spirit guides, his name is Bill. He was there and he had just transitioned out of his body back into spirit about six weeks before this had happened. And I saw my grandparents. And so I was told at this time,

that you need to wake up, you need to do what you're supposed to be doing, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna do this work. And so I remembered that, wow, I remember all these things, what I would experience as a child. It was like this beautiful kind of bittersweet sort of experience that happened because it woke me up. So after that, I really just all the intuitive stuff started coming in. I started taking a really strong interest in numerology.

consciousness and it just has opened up. And then I started getting a lot of messages from the babies. So I was a acupuncturist at the time. was and I still am an acupuncturist. And I was getting a lot of messages from babies and whether they would be in the aura of the person that I was treating, or they would actually be in the womb space and I would get messages from them.

I have regular dreams from what I call spirit baby guides that will come and share information with me about how to help people as well as people that I am working with. And so it's been very apparent and made very apparent to me what my job is. And I do not only treat fertility, I work with people on a just a very

helping people across the board with helping them really understand themselves. But fertility is a big part of my job. probably about 50%.

Michelle (06:08)

Amazing. so spirit babies have always really intrigued me. And what is it that you feel orbs or what exactly do you feel when you see those spirit babies attached to your patients?

Lindsay Goodwin (06:25)

Yeah, absolutely. So they can be sparkles. I see a lot of sparkles. The orbs of colors that I generally see will be blue, white, gold, sometimes purple, sometimes I will see pink. There have been times I have seen green. But the colors are specific. I haven't quite figured out why I only see certain colors.

Michelle (06:47)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (06:48)

but they're very beautiful. They're like, if someone is sitting in my office or if I'm doing a virtual session because I work with people globally, that I can actually see these sparkles that will actually start to just come off of them or around them. And that could be a spirit baby. It could also be a passed on loved one that is guiding that particular person on their journey.

Michelle (07:03)

Mm.

Lindsay Goodwin (07:11)

But we're talking about spirit babies today. So definitely just the spirit in general could have that sort of sparkly sort of energy that I'll see in the person's energy field, which could also be known as biofield, which would be more of a scientific term if we're talking about auras. And then I just, see a lot in my third eye. So your third eye is right between your eyebrows. If people know about chakras, I know that you do, Michelle.

And so I get these thought forms. Sometimes they'll actually be words that will come across. Other times they'll be visuals like I will see the baby. I actually will see what they look like as well as their gender. They will show me different artifacts or objects that relate to the person that I'm reading so that that person will know that I'm actually telling them something that they can link up to and I'm not just making it up.

So that's one thing I've realized over the years with the spirit babies and just the spirit world in general is that things will come through that will resonate with you to confirm with you that you're not alone.

Michelle (08:18)

Right. That's amazing. And what do you find or what are the messages that you get for people who are struggling to conceive yet they have a spirit baby around them? Like what is the holdup for the spirit baby coming through?

Lindsay Goodwin (08:33)

Well, that's a very common question and there could be a bazillion different things, but I'll tell you some common areas that I see. There could be, you know, it could be that maybe subconsciously, this is where the subconscious mind comes in, which is really powerful. You're into that as well as also a certified hypnotherapist that our subconscious mind will create energy blocks and will make it so that we're thinking things under the radar.

Michelle (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:02)

that could

be patterns about, maybe I won't be a good mom, maybe I won't be a good dad, maybe I won't be a good parent. And it could relate to some sort of traumatic event that happened. Maybe you had a mother that was emotionally unavailable. You couldn't speak your truth. You know, not necessarily saying that your parents were bad. It could be that maybe they just were dealing with their own things that were going on. And so you could be carrying around that trauma and not even realize that you're carrying it around. So...

Michelle (09:08)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:32)

People often ask me, why is it so easy for some people to get pregnant, but it's difficult for me? Why have I had so much loss? Or maybe I have never even had a pregnancy or maybe I have secondary infertility. And the answer that I often get is that I remind people and letting them know that everybody's journey is different. And when we sign up to have these human experiences, we're coming in and we're creating different experiences.

Michelle (09:51)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:58)

based on what our soul wants to learn in this physical 3D reality. And so if we're comparing our lives to other people and that, well, this person over here got pregnant really easily. Why is this person getting pregnant that doesn't even want the baby? Is this because everyone's journey is different as well as your spirit baby's journey is different. And so it could be a good example would be is that maybe you're someone that wanted to have a

lot more wisdom before you became a parent. Maybe you're someone that didn't want to be like your mother with your child. Maybe there was a lot of healing that needed to happen before your child actually would show up physically because you wanted to be in the best version of yourself to be able to give this child the life that maybe you didn't have.

Michelle (10:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I mean, there's the thing that I find is that, and I've gotten these ideas and downloads through meditation, through even going to Joe Dispenza events, because you're so immersed that you get these downloads, is that we are just simply not aware of the big picture. And we try to make conclusions based on parts and those parts of our life. so it's very hard to make a very

big picture conclusion when we don't have the big picture in front of us. And so part of that is really trusting that there's something else that does see the big picture that we're connected to and being able to surrender that. And that's another thing too that I've noticed is the surrender part. I think we're so conditioned to go after it that sometimes I like to kind of like think about, you know, the Chinese,

Lindsay Goodwin (11:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (11:49)

handcuffs or the finger cuffs or whatever. The faster you pull, the more you pull tightly and forcefully, the more you get stuck. Creating that kind of flow in your life will allow you to get the lesson faster, I feel like, and then you move faster. That's what I've noticed. Have you picked up on that?

Lindsay Goodwin (12:14)

yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a client that I've been seeing since August and we've got some really good news yesterday. Her AMH went from a 0.44 or something like that to over 1.1 something. Yeah. And it's amazing. I just, it's yes, yes, absolutely. And she's in her forties. And I just, told her, what I tell my clients is you did that.

Michelle (12:31)

Wow, that's amazing. That's great to hear for people to hear.

Lindsay Goodwin (12:44)

You did that. mean, of course, supplements help acupuncture, but you did that because you have learned to let go of things that are no longer serving you. You're starting to really trust yourself. Your body is saying, yes, yes, yes, because your mind is saying, hey, I know my worthiness. I know that I deserve to be a mom because if I didn't deserve to be a mom, I wouldn't desire it.

Michelle (12:45)

Yes. Right.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:10)

Okay, and so she is really now believing that this is truly happening for her. It's a knowing now rather than it just, I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for encouragement, will this happen? She's actually knowing that it's happening and her body is responding to it because of her mind power. So I, you know, to get back to what you were talking about, you know, with surrendering, I often tell people with manifesting, whether it's a baby, because babies are manifestations.

Michelle (13:10)

Mm-hmm, right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:40)

It's a partner, it's a business, it's a new house, whatever it is, it's better health. What we do, and this is challenging because we're not taught this, but as little kids, we know this. We put out into the universe that, okay, I'm gonna manifest this. You have to almost take it and put it up on the shelf and leave it there. You have to be unattached. Yes, exactly, you have to be unattached.

Michelle (13:40)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You almost have to forget about it.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:10)

to the how, the when, what it's gonna look like. And you're living your life and you're enjoying your magic and your light and your family and all the things that make you happy. I mean, when our perspective shifts, our whole world shifts. You can look at something one way or you can look at it another way. If you're looking at things and that things are abundant or you're looking at things of what I don't have,

Michelle (14:13)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

True.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:38)

That's a very different feeling. And we know that the universe is responding to how we feel.

Michelle (14:44)

yes. Yeah. It's the feelings. Yeah. The feelings really make a huge difference. And that's what they found actually in the research that Joe Dispenza does is because the researchers come up and talk and they say the two things that they saw, you know, the combination is thought emotions and emotional state. So that's one of the reasons why he focuses a lot on the heart and also this joy and the love.

Because when you feel those emotions, you can feel those emotions in very challenging times, yet you still can be very elevated. And I can tell you this, I I went through the loss of my father and it was a very challenging time to see him go through the transition. I knew he was gonna transition. I knew that I was witnessing to that. At the same time, I was able to get into a state of such love.

Lindsay Goodwin (15:38)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:39)

that

I felt more alive than like ever before. It felt like such a pivotal and sacred time, even though it could be judged as like this bad, dark time. And yes, it had very difficult, painful aspects to it, but the way I'm describing it now is it's a more neutral way. So you could look at something and acknowledge the pain in a more neutral perspective.

rather than looking at it and saying, this is good, this is bad. Because ultimately by doing that, or saying something's bad, you're limiting yourself. We were talking about that before. You're limiting yourself to that aspect of it. And that will impact your energy and how you're able to really show up in your life. And the energy impact can for sure impact the AMH. So all of these things that suck our energy throughout our life,

and mentally in the background are going to definitely impact the energy that can go into procreation. So it's this whole big picture.

Lindsay Goodwin (16:46)

It really is. And you know, I love what you're saying. It's about giving meaning to things. know, once we give meaning to things, then it takes on its own energy. neutral is a very powerful way of explaining it. And I know that that can be challenging as a human being because we're encoded with emotions. It's part of the experience. But when you can learn, like the Buddha says, and I'm not Buddhist, but just, know, I love

Michelle (17:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (17:16)

history and there's a lot of philosophies that are great, is that when you can live in that middle place, you know, rather than being too up here or too down here, you're just neutral. That's really when the manifestation happens. That's really when the happiness, that's where the joy is, because you're not attached to anything.

Michelle (17:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Yes, it is. It's that golden path. know, Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the present moment. And Chinese medicine can refer to that or Taoism as flow. You know, that is that golden path that is, it's neither one extreme or the other. It's here in the center. It's that neutrality.

And many different ancient cultures have been pointing to that. And many different spiritual teachers refer to that because that is the portal. And Eckhart Tolle says that that present moment is the portal really to the endlessness. So it's, it's when we're able to really let go and, know, also not the, not get hung up on the past and hold on to all of that and not get too identified with the future.

just really being in that center moment. If you think about that, if you truly, truly get into that state, you're very free. You're free. And when you're free, energetically, you're able to really connect to a wealth of power and energy to create whatever you need to create.

Lindsay Goodwin (18:47)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have to add to that, you know, I don't know if you ask yourself this, but I find it quite interesting if we're just talking about Chinese medicine. How is it that ancient philosophers of Chinese medicine came up with everything that they knew about the internal parts of the body and the spiritual energy with no diagnostics, no MRI machine, no ultrasound, no ability to look at the blood. They were channeling.

They were channeling energy.

Michelle (19:19)

100%. 100%. They were connected to that wealth of intelligence that we all have. We all are connected to. And I love that you mentioned that because you and I are both interested kind of like in the scientific research of the spirituality and like really understanding that because it's a great tool and it could be used as a great tool. However, they didn't have that back then.

Lindsay Goodwin (19:21)

Thank

Absolutely.

Michelle (19:45)

And so that just shows, and it's actually being proven just by itself, that just shows that there is an intelligence that we are connected to, that we can connect to without necessarily having to dissect it.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:02)

Yep, absolutely. And I say this often too, if science was a silver bullet for everything, are people not able to get pregnant with IVF?

Michelle (20:12)

Right. my God, such a good point.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:16)

I mean, it works for a lot of people. I'm not anti Western medicine or modern medicine at all. I think it's great. I believe in integrative medicine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, think what makes what we do so powerful too. We can see both sides of the coin and really help people to understand their bodies, but also understand that, wow, we've got this energy part that can't always be proven. Right. And so

Michelle (20:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Me too, yeah.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:44)

you know, it's just that's, that's what people want. That is where we are going as an energy collective as integrative. It's not, you know, one side, one sided, you know, this is an integrative process that's happening because science is great. mean, there's so many wonderful, just advantages to live in this time where we have science, because for example, if someone has

Michelle (20:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yeah, it's whole.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:13)

Say they have a partner that has some sort of DNA issue with their sperm and if they get pregnant naturally, they've had several miscarriages and that's painful to go through. IVF would be a great option because then we can create an embryo that is healthy and then we have a healthy baby. They're not going through that emotional roller coaster. It's not just that. I'm just giving one example.

Michelle (21:20)

Mm-hmm.

Correct.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:43)

Okay, but when we're just saying that it's just one way or the other, it's making it very limited for people. And I don't think that that's fair. This is my opinion and I know that you're on the same page too. But like, this is what we are going to see further that we go into just where we're headed as just humans. People want more of the energy.

Michelle (21:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:11)

options in health in general. You're moving away from being, I'm going to take this pill and that pill and I'm going to, you know, people don't want that anymore. I don't want that. I mean, you and I haven't been wanting that for years because we wouldn't be where we are if we did. And again, I'm not, I'm not knocking. I'm not talking bad about science. I think that, like I said, it's, it's wonderful. It does wonderful things.

Michelle (22:13)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:38)

but we have to open our mind a little bit more to things.

Michelle (22:41)

For sure. There's definitely a place

for everything. And I think that as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the neutrality aspect of it, looking at it objectively and saying, Hey, you know, this is one tool and then this is another tool. And sometimes this tool is a tool that can be very beneficial, but it shouldn't be the only tool because there are other tools like energetic that we don't necessarily see that can be very beneficial. And in fact, sometimes can enhance the, maybe the medical tools.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:49)

the

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they have found studies, know, Harvard Medical School for, it was not contemporary medicine, but it's the alternative side of the medical school. They did a study where they found that they had two different groups. And the one group that followed a mind body, which what was included with that was meditations, mindfulness, as well as visualizations.

Michelle (23:38)

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (23:38)

Hypnotherapy,

medical intuition, mean, all these energy modalities, they had a 55 % success rate of healthy babies, where the other group that didn't follow that particular program chose not to do it or just didn't do it the way that it was designed for them had about a 20 % success rate. So we really are seeing that when we are integrating, like you just stated, these mind-body techniques that

Michelle (24:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (24:07)

they can

really enhance these medical therapies that people are using with Western medicine like IVF.

Michelle (24:15)

yeah, it is so powerful and I'm glad that finally there's attention put on it because I think that because it's so abstract, a lot of these visualizations or visualizations being different than what you just said, like which is more mindfulness, but in general, like getting into the state of our being that is more abstract. It's not something that we can easily dissect or it's not as tangible as others.

And I think for that reason specifically, it can be very easily ignored. So I love the fact that there is data showing the evidence of that working because it's powerful and I think it'll get more people on board to do that. And not only will it help their fertility, but it's also going to help their life.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:04)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you know, it's I have a lot of vivid dreams, one that I had earlier this year. And I'm not religious in any way. But I get messages in there what they are. And the message was is the kingdom is within you. And we all know that if people read the Bible, or they've seen that. And again, I'm not necessarily a pusher of the Bible by any means, I'm a spiritual person. So I don't push any sort of religion. So very open.

Michelle (25:22)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:34)

But, you know, it's interesting to me because when I was having this dream, it was a presence, it was a consciousness. And again, I think that this was source energy God, which is all of us anyway. It's we're not separate from that, like you stated. And so there was these all these lapis lazuli stones that were coming out of what I know to be my body.

Michelle (25:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:04)

And I did not know, but in the Bible it states that Lapis Lazuli was made, that was what the throne of what God, I guess in the Bible, was actually made from. So it was very powerful and that shook me up. If the robbery and the out of body experience didn't, that one did, that we're all so powerful.

Michelle (26:04)

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:33)

And you

don't necessarily have to be having dreams like I do. I'm here to share these dreams. I'm here to share this information, just like you, to help people to realize that you have the power to create and be anything that you want. You have the power to heal yourself. And by no means disclaimer, am I recommending that people stop taking their medications or stop their treatment? But you do. You have the power, but it's

Michelle (26:55)

Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (27:02)

really starting to believe that and that can take some healing work, know, working with someone that can help you with that. But I always tell people when they work with me, we're not meant to work together forever. We're meant to get the work done that we're meant to do together and then you're going to be better and you're going to find your own magic. And then you're going to be able to help other people by you just being you. Yeah.

Michelle (27:04)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, it does happen often.

And then what are some things, because we talk about the mind body and obviously there are certain techniques, like we talked about mindfulness. What are some techniques that people can look into that can help them utilize this incredible force of their mind?

Lindsay Goodwin (27:47)

Yeah, absolutely. So techniques that I use would be hypnotherapy, which I know you use as well, Michelle, and neuro linguistic programming, which is NLP, which is being able to tap into the subconscious mind. It also is the study of body language. So it's the study like the FBI uses it to be able to solve cases and be able to tell if people are telling the truth or not.

Michelle (28:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:11)

Now that's a really powerful way to be able to work with somebody too, because sometimes you could even be lying to yourself, not even realize that you're doing it. So I'm able to see really, and it does not, we can be virtual, does not necessarily have to be in person. Energy has no barriers with us being across the world or across the country like you and I are. And so we can use these tools to be able to tell what's going on in somebody's subconscious mind.

Michelle (28:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:39)

probably are not consciously aware of. So then what we do is I use different tools to be able to help them to learn how to reprogram those behaviors because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between real and fake. So if you're constantly unconsciously telling yourself, like I was stating before, that I don't know if I'm going to be a good parent. I don't know if this is going to work out for me. What if I've had clients, for example, that have had maybe their

Michelle (28:41)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:09)

their mom had secondary infertility and they heard about that. I have one actually that's happened to and she did not even realize this. And then when she started working with me, we identified that her mom had secondary infertility when she was trying to have her. So she'd been constantly telling herself since she was about 12 years old that she was gonna have infertility, infertility, infertility. I have another client I worked with years ago that did IVF.

Michelle (29:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:36)

And she had some of the lowest AMH that I've ever seen on somebody that was young. I mean, she was under 30. And she we identified and figured out that her aunt had infertility. And she had been telling herself over and over again, she was a little girl that she was going to have infertility. Well, she did one baby with IVF, all the other ones like three more three or four more came naturally. So once she got over that

that subconscious belief that she was going to have trouble with having a baby, then she just had babies naturally. So was something that she needed to get over in her journey. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Program is really powerful. Visualizations are really powerful, mindfulness, meditation. I do a lot of visualization with my clients as well as helping them with their chakras, which are the energy centers located in the spine.

to really identify also my medical intuitive so really identify where there's imbalancing happening and then figuring out what emotions are attached to that what sort of traumas are attached to that for example a lot of women have a blocked throat chakra which when we have a blocked throat chakra yeah it is yeah yeah exactly that will block up the womb space

Michelle (30:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and lapis lazuli is good for that.

And it's interesting how the thyroid impacts reproductive, organs and health.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:08)

Yep. It's the biggest one. It's the biggest gland in that endocrine system. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, we could go into endocrinology and the spiritual. That's always fun. Yeah.

Michelle (31:19)

Yeah, but also expression, know, so that expression

opening up the heart, heart opening up the uterus. I mean, there's so many aspects and that's the thing too with chakras is that yes, they each have their own indication and behaviors and patterns, but they also have an interlinking workings with each other.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:42)

Yep. It's all connected just like the Chinese philosophers of Eastern medicine.

Michelle (31:48)

Yeah. Amazing. This is so interesting. mean, I can talk to you for hours. I can keep talking about like everything, but I wanted to ask if people are interested. I know you have a new podcast, which is awesome. And so talk about your new podcast and also talk about how people can reach out to you if they want to work with you.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:53)

same.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. So new podcast is fertile frequencies. I created that. Thank you. I created that because I really wanted to bring more of an integration of the unseen energies of the energies of spirit babies, energetic, spiritual fertility, which by the way, is not religious, it is spiritual, it's energy. Often that's a question that people will ask me about. That's kind of why I call it more energetic spiritual fertility. So people kind of understand this from an energy standpoint.

Michelle (32:13)

I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (32:40)

And so really talking with people, giving you the encouragement on your fertility journey, knowing that this is manifesting for you, understanding more about your physical body, but knowing that your fertility is way more than just your physical body. So we do get into some of the dynamics of things like egg quality, as well as IVF, talking about nutrition, different supplements.

I do talk about that, but I'm more about the energy. I feel like there's a lot of information out there about the physical side of fertility. So a lot of great content creators, like people, and of course you have a great podcast as well, that are already doing that. So there's not enough of the energy. So yeah, so that is a lot if you're into that, which if you listen to Michelle's podcast, I'm sure that you are into the energy side of fertility.

Michelle (33:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I agree.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:31)

And so just started that, I'm gonna have some really great experts on there. I'd love to have you on there as well. That's coming up. So it's definitely getting bigger than I think I was expecting it to. I think it's just time. It's time for this message to be out. Yeah, it's aligned, exactly. I do have a fertility program coming out as well. Of course, it's coming out in this month.

Michelle (33:46)

It's time. It's aligned. time.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:56)

And then I do have a VIP fertility program where you can work one-on-one with me and I do design a unique fertility program for you that has the physical aspects in it, but I do walk you through, help you with changing some of those subconscious patterns, helping you to really manifest the healthy pregnancy that you're looking for. And if you're interested in that, I do offer a 45 minute call where we can go through the program and I can meet you and we can answer any questions. I can answer any questions that you have.

and see how I can help. I'm only going to work with people that I know I can help. So I'm very honest about that as well. I think integrity is a huge part of this. So first step is seeing if we're a good fit. And then I also have some free resources as well. If you'd like to, I have an ebook on fertility, some seven essential steps to download, an ebook download to help you with some of those essential steps getting started on your fertility journey, or if you're someone that

Michelle (34:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure.

Lindsay Goodwin (34:55)

has been trying for a while. That would be helpful as well. And I do have a fertility affirmations and meditation available that you can download that is a free download as well. definitely I'm now on Insight timer. So you can download it on there. Yeah. So yeah.

Michelle (35:09)

Mm-hmm. awesome. Cool.

That's great. And all of Lindsay's information will be in the episode notes in case anybody wants to find it. Lindsay, I absolutely love talking to you. I feel so aligned with your way and method of teaching and also your perspective on fertility and health.

So it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy new year. Well, right now it's, by the time this airs, it's going to be way past new year, but it is January 1st today. So thank you so much for coming on.

Lindsay Goodwin (35:34)

you

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Michelle, and thank you to all of your listeners and so much love and encouragement. And just know that it's all happening for you.

EP 324 Unlocking the Gut-Brain-Fertility Connection

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into a fascinating and vital topic—how stress impacts the gut-brain connection and, in turn, your fertility health. We’ll explore how chronic stress affects your nervous system, gut microbiome, and hormonal balance, and I'll share actionable tips to regulate your nervous system, support gut health, and optimize fertility. Tune in to learn how to empower your mind and body for a thriving fertility journey!

Takeaways

• The gut and brain are connected via the vagus nerve, creating a two-way communication system that influences stress and digestion.

• Chronic stress diverts blood flow away from vital organs, impacting digestion, hormone balance, and fertility.

• Practices like diaphragmatic breathing, meditation, and ear massage can activate the vagus nerve, promoting a"rest and digest" state.

• A diverse and healthy gut microbiome supports hormonal health, reduces inflammation, and enhances fertility.

• Emotional stress drains the body’s reserves and can lead to hormonal imbalances like lowered progesterone levels.

• Mindful eating habits, such as chewing food thoroughly and avoiding distractions, improve digestion and gut health.

• Acupuncture and other TCM techniques help regulate the nervous system and support overall fertility wellness.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to be talking about a topic that I've talked about before, but it's a little different. And I am going to be discussing stress and its impact on fertility. Now, I've spoken about stress before, we've had many, many different episodes talking about how stress can impact fertility, and I know a lot of people say, Oh, does it really impact fertility?

Yes. When it gets broken down, absolutely, and indirectly in some ways. So today I'm actually going to be talking about the gut brain connection, how stress can impact the gut and how the gut. is super important for fertility health. So stay tuned.

So I find this topic actually really, really fascinating because the [00:01:00] gut is super smart. Actually, it has its own nervous system and it's really fascinating just how it runs. And I tend to be really fascinated by the nervous system as it is. And I think that the nervous system is one of the things that We don't really pay that much attention to, but it really does make a difference on so many factors and so many things in our body.

And really, it makes such a difference and influence on how we feel in our life and how we perceive the world as well.

And if you really think about the influence of stress on the nervous system, then you can see how it really is a Such a direct relationship. Stress is really how our nervous system reacts and responds to the life around us.

Now, I always say this, I've said this before, and I'm going to say this today again, is that it's not about

[00:02:00]eliminating stress or eradicating stress. As a matter of fact, stress can actually make us stronger. So having moments of stress, I mean, if you think about going to the gym and building muscle, One of the reasons why we get stronger is because of the stress and stress can also impact the bones and help the bones.

So having that extra stress actually strengthens the bones. So stress can actually be something that can be alchemize to help our bodies to help our life like if you have difficulties or challenges in your life, you'll find that it actually makes you stronger and it makes you smarter and it gets you to think about things differently than you would have normally.

And if you don't have that element of stress, then you don't really have that opportunity of growth. So stress is incredibly advantageous when it is not chronic when it's not all the time and we as humans and this is really like even how we learn about the body through Chinese medicine

[00:03:00] is that A lot of things in our bodies and a lot of things in nature run in pulses, it runs in rhythms.

So when you have something all the time without that break, that's when it can lead to imbalance. So when you have like pulses of stress or things that come and go, That is when the body is able to have the pulse and then it goes back into a more yin phase. I've spoken about the yin and the yang, which are really two opposing opposites that need each other in order to create harmony and balance.

And that harmony and balance is something that conventional medicine will say or call homeostasis. And homeostasis is basically a state that the body always strives for in order to thrive. And that is the ultimate. So homeostasis is that balance that keeps us in check. It keeps the hormones in check. It keeps everything in check.

Now, in order to have that, we

[00:04:00] can't have too much yang or too much yin. We need the two. And this is how we have a pulse. A pulse is something that goes back and forth. and that back and forth is what keeps things in balance. So it can go back and forth, but then eventually grow into strength. So having that stress, but then having that recovery and that combination of the two is what actually gets us stronger.

However, many cases our nervous system is hyper stimulated, hyper meaning over. So overstimulated by electronics, by sound, by things that are typically not occurring in nature if we were to be living really in accordance with nature and what we used to do in the past when we didn't have all these man made things like light at night or really loud noises from the garbage truck things that are

[00:05:00]really not Something that you find in nature sounds that you don't really hear in nature, bright lights that you don't see in nature, things that are not typical to what our bodies are actually programmed to be used to, and also to understand the process.

So when we have that extreme hyper stimulation all the time, and now I'm not even talking about the emotional stress. I'm just talking about. So I'm going to talk about the stressors that we are exposed to day in and day out that also stimulate our nervous system. And by stimulating it all the time, it actually weakens it.

It makes you more tired. So in Chinese medicine, we talk about excess and deficiency, and that's kind of like the yin and the yang. And when we have too much excess, it can lead to deficiency because the body has to process that excess. And when there's just too much coming at it at once, it can make it more deficient.

Just think

[00:06:00] about a computer. If you're throwing in so many different software and really loading it up over time, it's going to get slower and it's going to get in the way of its ability to process signals and it takes a little longer to do things.

So now that we covered that aspect of stress, there's also emotional stress, and if you notice, emotions actually take a lot of energy in the body, and so having that stress chronically of emotions, that drains the body of reserves, and it can also impact it. how we feel and impact the state of our brains.

And it also has been shown to create a more incoherent state of brain waves. And that's been studied and observed in HeartMath Institute where they study the heart brain coherence. And it's really, really fascinating work because they're actually seeing that there's a relationship between the heart and the brain and the heart has

[00:07:00] always been in Chinese medicine said to house the brain, which is interesting because nobody really understood from a conventional medicine perspective, what that really meant.

Or it was kind of like, okay, well that's, I guess their perspective on it or their theory. But now science is actually showing that that is really in fact true. And as a matter of fact, the heart acts as a brain and it can really pick up on things before the brain even picks up on them. So your heart is in a sense even more powerful than the brain itself.

Now when it comes to the brain and stressors and impacts of the stressors on the brain, that can impact a fight and flight. response from your body. So we know one thing that's really fascinating is that there's a bi directional relationship between the brain and your gut. So your gut has its

[00:08:00] own nervous system and it's called the enteric nervous system.

And your brain is connected to the central nervous system and that central nervous system gets information from the brain and it also receives information from the body. So how that is connected to the gut is through the vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve is kind of like playing operator and it has a bidirectional communication pathway from the enteric nervous system, which is our gut nervous system.

And that basically runs from your mouth to your anus. So basically it runs throughout the whole thing and it has hundreds of thousands of neurons and that is pretty fascinating. But the fascinating thing is that it is connected via the vagus nerve to your brain and your brain connects with your gut.

So when you have stressors that are impacting the integrity of the way your brain is

[00:09:00]functioning, when there are too many Difficulties and coherences 

and dysfunctional stressors 

that can impact your nervous system and also impact you to be more in a fight or flight situation. state, then that can impact your gut health as well. So when the vagus nerve is activated, the vagus nerve can get you into a more rest and digest state. And that rest and digest state is optimal for your digestive system.

And that is what you want. You want your body to be in a state of where fluids can flow freely, because you'll find that if you are in a fight or flight State your mouth gets really dry. It's like the fluids get like dried up and 

what happens is in those situations where your body perceives a danger, it knows that it can't focus on anything else, but the ability to run or to fight if you can't run. So what

[00:10:00] happens is your body automatically will start to send it. blood to the arms and to the legs and away from your organs. So that, where does that move away from?

It moves away from your heart. It moves away from your liver. It moves away from all your internal organs, moves away from your digestion. It moves away from your uterus and your ovaries. And to have yourself be in a state that is chronically like that, it's going to impact how your body is going to nourish itself and regenerate.

And that of course is going to impact your fertility health. So yes, stress can really, really impact fertility health.

But a very big reason for why is also because it impacts your gut health. And your gut health is central to your fertility health. It can impact how your body is able to process nutrients, how your body is

[00:11:00] able to get energy, how your body deals with inflammation, and how your body's immune system operates.

All things that contribute greatly to your fertility. fertility health. And it also impacts your body's microbiome, not just the gut microbiome, but it can also influence your vaginal microbiome and your uterine microbiome. So it can impact so many things and it's such a trickle effect. And that's the thing with a body that is so amazing, but also can be challenging for, you know, Sometimes conventional medicine to approach, because if you take pieces of the body or parts of the body and just focus on that part, you're just not going to get the full picture.

And this is why I love Chinese medicine is because it looks at the full circle, the full picture and how all the different parts work together. And it's like a big, huge web that

[00:12:00] intercommunicates with each other. So when you start to realize that. You don't need to really figure it out all together, and that's a thing that I do want to stress in this.

Um, no pun intended, but I do want to mention that ultimately all the things that I'm telling you is really to give you a big picture about it, but you don't have to figure out exactly how it works. It's really more an understanding. of really what stress can do to your gut.

The reason I say this is because your body's actually really intelligent and your body knows what to do. So when you get it to a state where you regulate your nervous system, and I'm going to be sharing things and to do's towards the end of this. So you can keep listening to find out.

But when you do get yourself to that state, Then your body knows exactly what it needs to do. You don't have to figure it out and you don't even have to tell the body what to do. The body already knows what to do. All it needs is an environment that feels

[00:13:00] safe for it to do so.

Another thing to note is that the brain. not only impacts the gut, but the gut can also impact the brain. So the gut can also impact our ability to produce serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter that impacts your mood and overall wellbeing. So if you have any kind of issues with your gut, it can also impact the brain and that can create more stress.

So it's bi directional. And that is what is so fascinating about this is that you can really impact your gut through your brain and you can impact your brain through your gut.

So besides stress impacting your gut, I also want to mention that it can also elevate cortisol levels, which cortisol is a hormone and again, cortisol has a lot of benefits for the body as well, but you don't want it to be chronic. When it's chronic, it can suppress ovulation. It can also

 Lower progesterone levels. So that's one of the

[00:14:00] reasons why somebody can have lowered progesterone is from high stress. And progesterone is really important. It's important for fertility, obviously, but it's really, really important for pregnancy.

So to, in order to sustain a pregnancy, you need good, healthy amounts of progesterone.

So, I wanted to mention a couple of really interesting studies and one of them was the study on Tibetan monks and what they did was they actually looked at the gut microbiome of those Tibetan monks and also neighbors and so basically what they found was that, um,

the microbiome of the meditators and the microbiome of the neighbors. And they both ate similar foods. They were exposed to the same water. They lived in the same area. The only difference really was that the meditators meditated all day. And what they found was that the gut microbiome and the meditators was a lot more enriched and a lot more

[00:15:00] diverse than the ones of the neighbors.

And that's pretty fascinating because What that shows you is that there are types of microbiome and what it looked like for the meditators is associated with a lot less risk of inflammation and risk of heart disease and lots of different. autoimmune conditions. So it protected them basically by having that enriched gut microbiome.

It protected their bodies, but it also shows us that their meditations have something to do with the gut microbiome.

Something else that I want to note Is if you've been listening to me, you probably are sick of hearing me talk about Dr. Joe Dispenza, because I absolutely have been so influenced by his work. And when I went to his retreat, 

they basically studied the participants blood and their gut microbiome is one of the things that they study in brain waves and amongst many other things. And what they

[00:16:00] found was that when they take the stool samples of the participants from the beginning before they actually start the week long meditation retreat, they check their stools before and then they check it afterwards and they find that it's drastically different and it has way more diversity in their microbiome and it's associated with much better health.

Okay. And so that's pretty fascinating. And that's something that I directly had experience to watching. So it seems like basically that through meditation and through mindfulness practices Or any kind of practices that lower stress that that can impact the gut microbiome, which is fascinating because then it gives us a lot of power.

It gives us a feeling of empowerment that you really can make a difference in your gut just through your mind alone.

Another really fascinating study that I found was that they

[00:17:00] had correlations between certain types of mental disorders and some of them were even mild depression or mild anxiety all the way leading to bipolar and other types that were more severe.

And what they found was that there was an interesting pattern of the microbiome and it was a similar type of microbiome pattern where it showed some microbiome dysbiosis that related to the mental condition. that the person had. So depending on what it was, there seemed to be a pattern in their gut microbiome, which is another incredibly fascinating thing.

And something that I also heard about was fecal implants, I don't necessarily suggest it. I think it's still an experimental phase, something that you might want to ask your doctor about if you really have gone through a lot, but. Definitely do your

[00:18:00] research because I know that it's not something that I think that it's not something without any risks at all.

But what they found, which was fascinating about this, is that when they did the fecal transplant, the person would basically take a transplant of poop, it's kind of gross, from somebody who has a really good enriched microbiome. And they basically transplanted that poop from that person to the other person, who'd take the poop and put it back.

into the person who had dysbiosis or issues with their gut. And what they found was that it influenced their gut health because what happened was that microbiome would start to populate and grow in numbers for the person that needed it. And they found that not only did it help in many cases with gut conditions, but it also helped with mental conditions.

Um, it helped with ADHD and many other types of

mental diagnoses. So it was [00:19:00] really, really, really fascinating that that can really make such a difference, but it can.

So it is kind of cool to know this because then you realize that yes, I can approach this through the gut itself. Which a lot of people do, but many times people get so focused sort of on like the physical body that they ignore the mental body. And I find that I meet a lot of people, whether it's my clients or in person or online.

where they have spoken to functional doctors, they know pretty much what supplements to take, what to eat, and they figured it all out and almost to a point where it caused them a lot of mental stress. But the focus was so much just on the physical that the mental was ignored.

And it is something that is easy to ignore because. It's something that we don't really see, we can't touch, it's something that kind of operates behind the

[00:20:00] scenes, and most of the time, our eyes, when they're open, are focused on the world around us, so it's easier for us to focus on that. and not close our eyes and go within, which is what a lot of these mindfulness practices teach us.

And this is actually something that I cover a lot in my book, the way of fertility, because I thought it was so important. What I found just really in working in this field is that That is the most ignored aspect of our being and it's because it can be actually really frustrating to deal with. It's frustrating to do something and work with something and focus on something that we can't really hold and it's not as tangible.

And it feels like we have less control, but ultimately by doing so and allowing ourselves to experience that feeling, the feelings that come up with it, that's when we actually do start to feel

[00:21:00] more of a sense of control. So it's kind of like a little

paradox in its own experience. but I do highly recommend looking into it. But I'm going to talk about not just the mindfulness aspect, but I'm also going to talk about really tangible ways that you can impact your nervous system. And of course I'm going to mention acupuncture. And that is something that I do.

And acupuncture, is incredibly beneficial on regulating the nervous system. It works on your circuits, basically. I mean, to really say it in the most simplest way, obviously, acupuncture is a lot more complex than just calling it circuits, but it's really beneficial. To say circuits, it makes it easier for the mind to really envision.

Do you basically have circuits in your body and that circuits and the pulses that the circuits bring, which is really the channels inside your body. When you're stimulating that with acupuncture, it can really help regulate

[00:22:00] the nervous system and basically restart that. And so what that does is over time and not in the beginning, sometimes in the beginning you could feel more tired, but over time it'll increase your energy.

But also will help you feel calm at the same time. So I call it calm alert. And I love that combination when you're calm and you're alert, which is the opposite of like having a lot of coffee to try to like force yourself to have energy and then you're jittery. So no, no jitters, you're super alert, but you're also calm.

It's like the perfect combination.

So acupuncture can really support that in many different ways, not just by regulating your own patterns, but also by stimulating the channels and also by doing auricular therapy, which is really addressing the points on the ears. The ears are one area that make the vagus nerve accessible. The vagus nerve, which is that go between your brain and your gut is really, really important.

, when it gets stimulated, it

[00:23:00] actually stimulates the rest and digest part of your nervous system. So that could be really, really impactful on your gut health. And so one of the ways that you could do this, so acupuncture is one of the ways, but one of the ways that you could do this at home is simply by massaging your ears every single day.

You could do this at night and you could do this in the shower. Or you could do this whenever you remember to do it. But massaging your ears can almost immediately have an impact on the nervous system. So it not almost immediately. It actually does have that. So that's something that you might want to do.

And while you're doing that, You can also do some deep breathing. So working that diaphragm. So diaphragmatic breathing where we're breathing from the belly, that's ultimately the best way to breathe. We are trained over time and conditioned to breathe through the ribs and.

while

[00:24:00] the ribs are part of how we breathe, the most effective way to breathe is through the diaphragm. So you can practice this by putting your hand on your belly and feeling your belly go in and out and train yourself to do that. Get back into that. And you can actually train yourself to do that. I used to not do that.

And I, Now I train myself to do that. That is just the way I breathe. It's not going to give you a huge belly. You know, people are so afraid of that, that they start to breathe the wrong way. And ultimately it helps oxygenate your body much better, but then also when you're doing some breathing exercises, it can also calm the vagus nerve.

One of the ways to do this is by inhaling to four counts, holding your breath and then exhaling to eight counts. So when you exhale longer than you inhale, you get yourself into a more rest and digest mode.

[00:25:00] If you have issues sleeping at night, this is a great exercise to do and you could literally combine that with massaging your ears and also slowing down your breath and holding it on the inhale and holding it a little bit on the exhale.

So controlling that breath. And then filling up the lungs all the way and then exhaling all the air out.

Another thing that you can do is hum. So humming that vibration sound from your throat can actually impact and stimulate the vagus nerve. So that's another way to stimulate the vagus nerve.

And generally speaking, things like yoga, qigong, and movement that becomes more conscious can also regulate your nervous system.

And you can also, as you're laying down, if you have any issues falling asleep, you can also do something called Yoga Nidra. You can find many different ones on YouTube

[00:26:00] where they guide you through focusing on the different parts of your body. But becoming aware of your body sensations is another way to really make that strong connection between your brain and your awareness and your body.

So that is really what I have for the mind. But then when it comes to your gut, you could do a lot of things too, to support your mind and to support your gut. And so my number one rule for this, number one, is chew your food. Chew your food so that it becomes complete mush. And I remember hearing, when I was studying Ayurveda, I remember hearing my teacher shared this quote, and I was like, oh my god, this It's true.

And he said, drink your food and eat your drink. So I'm like, okay, you know, it's kind of weird to hear the first time you hear about it, but drink your food, meaning you choose so well that you basically have a smoothie

[00:27:00] in your mouth, ready to like swallow like a drink. And then also taking your time with it.

The drinks and the soups and kind of giving yourself a little more time in your mouth because what happens is Your saliva has these amazing enzymes that help break down your food Once it enters your gut so that is the first process and probably the most important because you want to start that foundation of digestion right and that foundation starts with mastication which is chewing and combining that with with your saliva.

So not only liquefying it, but also liquefying it with liquid gold, which is digestive enzymes that you're able to really get into the food so that the food is able to process and the digestive system doesn't have as hard of a time doing what it does because the digestive system process is actually very energy

[00:28:00]consuming and that is one of the reasons why we need to rest and digest.

We get more tired after we eat because our bodies need energy in order to digest. So when you're doing that, you're actually making it easier and creating a much more efficient digestive process.

Secondly, if you're going to have proteins, Combine them with vegetables or some fibers so that you're able to process it and really chew it. But also the biggest, most difficult to digest meals should be eaten when the sun is strongest outside. What that does is that our bodies respond very much to the environment and it will respond to that digestive fire.

So having that sun very strong will impact our Agni, which is the digestive fire, and that will impact how we're able to process food. And I also suggest eating less at night. As the sun goes down, your

[00:29:00] digestive system also starts to sleep. So it's important during that time to go easy. And you can have soups, steamed vegetables, really, really light meals at night.

and then allow your stomach and your digestive system a little fasting time in the evening before you go to sleep. Your sleep is going to be a lot better because again, all that energy that usually goes into digestion can go into repair, into balancing hormones, into replenishing your body as you sleep.

Plus your sleep will be deeper and better if you, don't have too much in your stomach.

I also highly suggest getting on a good probiotic. And the one I like, and again, it really depends on your gut condition because you might need different protocols, but the company I like is microbiome labs and they do gut testing. They also do,

[00:30:00] they have lots of different supplements. Megasporbiotic is the most common one 

for people with really complex digestive issues, they might benefit from going with something a little more gentle than Megasporbiotic and doing like a one strain in the beginning so their body gets used to it. But I highly recommend their products because they are really, really top notch.

And lastly, you could do this while you shower, you could do this after your shower, massaging your belly is one of the most impactful things, not just for your gut, but it can also impact your uterus and get more blood flow to that area. So really just massaging in clockwise circles.

So as you're looking at your belly, circle around your belly button and you can do a wide circle until you get closer to the belly button and then go wide again and then go back and forth like that. Then you can go

[00:31:00] from the top of the rib cage down to the belly button and then from your pubic bone up and from the sides towards the center of your belly button and diagonal.

And really you are intuitive and your hands are intuitive. So your hands will figure out how it feels good to massage your belly. So you can press in certain points that feel like it needs more movement or if it feels stagnant and you'll get to feel what you need because that's ultimately what happens when we start to connect with our bodies.

And lastly, just a really good habit to get into is mindful eating, becoming aware of what you're eating and not doing other things like watching TV or being on your phone, just sitting and looking at your food because you do start salivating when you look at your food. Looking at your food is also the beginning of digestion.

So becoming mindful with your food, also tasting your food, chewing your food, and

[00:32:00] becoming aware of how certain foods make you feel and really connecting with that because that will connect you to intuitive eating, where you intuitively know what is good for you and what is not good for you. So that concludes today's episode, and I hope you enjoy this. To me, this is a really fascinating topic, and it's something that I think a lot of people should really give

attention to, because the mind and the gut are really both important things in life. when it comes to your fertility health. And it also will help the process so that you don't feel as stressed and you feel more ready and equipped to get through this. because we know the fertility journey is challenging as it is.

So I hope you feel more empowered with this message. And if you guys feel connected to

the content that I am sharing, please subscribe. And I would be so grateful

[00:33:00] for a review. Thank you so much for listening in and I hope you have a beautiful day.