Ep 343 Optimising Implantation, Egg Quality, and Hormonal Health with Laser Therapy with Lorne Brown
On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Lorne Brown (@lorne_brown_official), a leading expert in integrative reproductive health and the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre. We explore the groundbreaking potential of low-level laser therapy (LLLT), also known as photobiomodulation, and how it can support fertility, egg and sperm quality, and overall reproductive health.
Dr. Brown breaks down the science behind this innovative, non-invasive therapy, revealing how light can stimulate mitochondrial function, regulate inflammation, improve blood flow, and even support the nervous system. We also dive into the fascinating history of how this therapy was discovered for fertility by accident, the results of clinical research, and why dosage, wavelength, and placement matter when using this technology. Whether you're navigating IVF, struggling with unexplained infertility, or looking for additional support on your path to conception, this episode is packed with valuable insights.
Key Takeaways:
Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) or photobiomodulation enhances mitochondrial function, which is key to egg and embryo quality.
The therapy can improve blood flow, regulate inflammation, reduce oxidative stress, and support nutrient absorption at the cellular level.
It also helps balance the autonomic nervous system, shifting the body into parasympathetic mode to support reproductive health.
Dr. Brown shares clinical data showing improved blastocyst rates and live births using LLLT before IVF transfers.
Not all laser systems are created equal—dosage, wavelength, and delivery matter for therapeutic benefit.
Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.
For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com
Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility
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[00:00:00] Episode number 343 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbit, and today I am excited to welcome Lauren Brown back to the podcast he was on previously on episode 3 31, where he gives a little bit more of an introduction on his background, and we spoke a lot about consciousness and fertility, but today we're actually gonna be speaking about something really interesting.
Which is laser therapy when it comes to fertility health, specifically low level laser therapy. So I'm really excited for him to come back on and speak about this. And if you are on the fertility journey, I highly recommend you listen to this episode. He is going to be covering a lot and really explaining what it is and why it's so important and how it works.
So stay tuned.
[00:01:00]
Lorne Brown: Welcome back to the podcast, Lauren. Excited to have you.
Michelle Oravitz: Michelle, I'm so excited to be back with you as well. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in the past. Really excited about the conversation we had that showed up on the Conscious Fertility Podcast with you, and happy to talk low level laser with you today.
Lorne Brown: Yes. So last time we got really deep on the conscious fertility and spirituality, and I. Love that quantum. And today we're gonna talk a little more about laser therapy and how that can benefit fertility, egg quality. I'm very excited to hear more about this.
Michelle Oravitz: Same. I, how do you wanna start? 'cause we could go, you and I could go for hours
Lorne Brown: we can, [00:02:00] for sure. So for people who have never really heard of laser. Therapy low level laser therapy. Right. That's that's really LLLT
Michelle Oravitz: Triple L, low level. It's got a couple of names. So in the old days they called it cold laser 'cause it's the non heating laser, the class three B that we're ta that you and I are gonna talk about. Then it became known as low level laser therapy because they wanted to differentiate between the high powered ones.
Michelle Oravitz: Like there are lasers that can cut and burn and sculpt you. People know about sculpting, hair removal surgeons, about cutting. That's not what we're talking about. So it had the term low level laser therapy which is what I think the public knows. So we usually use that term a lot. But in the scientific community, they adopted the term photo biomodulation photon.
Michelle Oravitz: Photons, light, bio, the body modulation, can it make change to the body? And and that's because systems have both laser [00:03:00] diodes and LEDs as their way to put photons into the body. So low level laser therapy is inaccurate 'cause some of the systems are using LEDs. but we use 'em interchangeably, photobiomodulation and LLLT, low level laser therapy.
Michelle Oravitz: If people are Googling it, that's what you would put in.
Lorne Brown: Yeah, because that's, I think that's like the common term for it where people are gonna search it for it now. I remember watching a video like years ago, I think it was during the pandemic, talking about like really the sun and cellular melatonin and then talking about really, 'cause that that's kind of what.
Lorne Brown: The idea is, or part of it is really getting that cellular melatonin and that that light to induce better quality for eggs and cells. So for people who are first heard about this and don't know anything about it, can we break it down like in layman terms so that people can really understand what it is?
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so I, I'll share [00:04:00] with you kind of, from our audience perspective, kind of what they really wanna know. 'cause I, I get these questions a lot, so I'll share that. And, and I think it's important to share kind of just how it kind of started with fertility. In general with low level laser therapy there's this mechanism that I think we can talk about with fertility and you were mentioning like mitochondria health, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So, people in fertility understand mitochondria is really important that egg cell when it becomes the embryo, when it's, when it's disseminated by the, or fertilized by the sperm that embryo mitochondria health is dependent or determines if it has enough energy to divide, whether it's in the fallopian tube.
Michelle Oravitz: If it's in the IVF lab trying to grow it to the blasts, so that comes from the egg that goes, becomes the embryo, it's the eggs, mitochondria, and then that energy for implantation also requires a lot of energy and that comes from the mitochondria and the mitochondria, the battery of the cells. They create the cellular currency, a TP.
Michelle Oravitz: That's where I [00:05:00] think it all started. People got excited about it because of. When we think of women in, once they get into what they term advanced maternal age, and we have less fertility or increase in miscarriages or increase in birth defects the current scientific understanding is because these eggs are older, they have more mitochondrial dysfunction and therefore there's more genetic errors.
Michelle Oravitz: And so the idea is maybe the light can rejuvenate these eggs. So that's kind of, I think, the thought process. But that was way back when I kind of wanna share what we know it's, it's doing and then share some of the mechanisms we understand, which is why people like yourself and me got really interested in low level laser for fertility because the mechanism is very promising.
Michelle Oravitz: So the, it kind of. So many discoveries happen by mistake, and, and that's when it came to photo modulation for fertility. Dr. Ro [00:06:00] is a medical doctor, pain specialist in Japan, and this was in the nineties. He was treating a woman for a woman with back pain. And he had this approach that he would, and she, by the way, was not menstruating anymore.
Michelle Oravitz: She was in that men early part of her life of menopause. He. he. would always treat around the neck and a few other areas to increase blood flow. So he had this approach where he wants to increase blood flow head to toe because if there's an injury in your back or your knee or your big toe, if we can bring blood flow to that area.
Michelle Oravitz: That will support the healing. So he treated, he did that treatment where he created blood flow head to toe. And in his research, he actually has a really interesting diagram using thermal photography to show the increase in blood flow, head to toe after, before a session of laser therapy and then after first, and then after the fifth, and it was just quite dramatic, the change. So he treated her for several treatments. He also would go locally, so if you had knee [00:07:00] pain, he would treat with the laser over the knee pain he used, in her case, she had back pain, so he did low level laser therapy over her back as well, and she had a series of treatments and her back pain was resolved, but her cycle came back and she wasn't actually.
Michelle Oravitz: She didn't wanna have her cycle back. So she was concerned about it and, and unhappy about it and complained to him is the story I heard. And he was like, look, I don't think it has anything to do with what I've done. Go speak to your gynecologist because you're bleeding again, and just to make sure everything's okay.
Michelle Oravitz: In that same calendar year, another woman with back pain who wasn't menstruating was treated. So again, he did the treatment to increase blood flow. So those points you'll see in my clinic, we do a lot of points around the neck. So we're getting the carotid, the vagus nerve, a feature called the stalet ganglia.
Michelle Oravitz: And treated her back and did several treatments and her back pain was resolved and her cycle came back and she would bleed for a couple days, almost every three to five weeks. So then he thought, huh, if we're bringing blood flow, [00:08:00] if this treatment causes blood flow, head to toe. Maybe we're bringing blood to the ovaries and we're helping rejuvenate these ovaries, and that's why these women start to cycle again.
Michelle Oravitz: So we went and talked to a colleague, gynecologists and in their gynecology department to do a pilot study. And in that pilot study there was around 74 women. The English translation is severe infertility. I think the average age was 39. I think they had on close to nine years of infertility and 15 a RT cycles.
Michelle Oravitz: And they showed an over 20% pregnancy rate and over 60% live birth rate, which was quite good for that demographic. So they increased that study to 700 women and their pregnancy rate was around 23%. And the live birth rate was 50%. So that's kind of how it started. I.
Lorne Brown: I remember seeing that study. Was that the one where they had a 50-year-old?
Michelle Oravitz: I
Michelle Oravitz: don't, I'd have to look.
Lorne Brown: I actually didn't even pick up on that, believe it or not. I didn't pick up on [00:09:00] that. One of my patients did, who was a nurse, and I sent it to her. 'cause I sent her and she was like the 50-year-old. I'm like the 50-year-old.
Lorne Brown: And then I went back and round. I'm like, oh my God. Yes, there, there was a 50-year-old.
Michelle Oravitz: and I'd have to re-look at the data. I don't, you know, 'cause these
Michelle Oravitz: are people natural or IVF maybe I don't think in Japan they don't do donor eggs, so it wouldn't have been a donor egg cycle. That's why Japan's so interesting to see what they do because they don't back, back in the day anyhow, they weren't doing donor egg cycles.
Michelle Oravitz: So they will bring in and try anything to help a woman conceive with their own eggs. 'cause they don't have, the opportunity in Japan to use donor eggs, if it's warranted. so that's kind of how it started. And then, I mean here we are now recording this in 2025, right? This is the nineties is when they had this study.
Michelle Oravitz: I learned about this in the mid two thousands. So, you know, almost uh, over 10 years after they had done their, that first study. And I came across there was a study in 2008, an abstract that was published [00:10:00] where they did laser acupuncture, a little different than low level laser therapy 'cause they were just putting photons into acupuncture points.
Michelle Oravitz: And in that case, they had a sham laser and a real laser and a control group. Acupuncture group. And the laser acupuncture group. And this was just immediately before and after transfer. There were. Fresh day three. So it was a while ago, right? 'cause now most cycles are blasis transfers. Most not all, and most are quite often frozen, not fresh.
Michelle Oravitz: But this was a day three study fresh transfers. So they did that acupuncture study known as the polys protocol before and after. But they used. The laser acupuncture sham. Sham means the laser didn't work. It, it still beeped, but it didn't actually give off any photon. So the doctor nor the patient nor the acupuncturist knew they were getting laser or not laser.
Michelle Oravitz: And in that group, the laser acupuncture had a 15 one 5% increase in implantation. And that's just on transfer day. 'cause remember, all you're doing is helping with [00:11:00] uterine receptivity with one treatment. Right. Transfer day. What UR was doing was more about egg and embryo quality 'cause he was treating them for a series of treatments.
Michelle Oravitz: in that, in that case. And then I learned about Anne-Marie Jensen, who's a physiotherapist, trained in low-level laser therapy. And she just did some chart reviews and she shared some pretty. Ob impressive success rates with people using her system called the Giga laser that she has. We have one in Vancouver as well, a giga laser.
Michelle Oravitz: And she would treat them three times a week in the follicular only. So before OB up to ovulation or if they're in an IVF up until transfer day. And so that worked out. If it's, you know, if you're menstruating fairly regular, that'd be six treatments a cycle, and she would do on average at least three to six
Michelle Oravitz: cycles. long is each exposure?
Michelle Oravitz: The exposure for the giga laser, it's program six is 23 minutes. So they'd have 23 minutes and she, since [00:12:00] that she's written a book and since then she's done another chart review from her data in 2021. 'cause in that the, the one where she showed really optimistic success rates with her giga laser. And we'll talk about the mechanism, why I think the giga did so well in her case.
Michelle Oravitz: She does a lot of body work like so stretching yoga and breaking up scar tissue. So they would have the laser on the giga hovers over while she was working on their abdomen. Right. But she had a group in 20 20, 1 of 60 women where they had no practitioner, no treatment. They would just come in and do self-serve with the giga laser.
Michelle Oravitz: We do this in ACU balance now too. They can just book the giga. They have to have an initial consult for safety and make sure we can set up a plan for them. And it, and it's, it's a good. A good choice for them. So she does that in her clinic and they would come in on average two to three times a week, and she looked at their success rate based on age and again, really good.
Michelle Oravitz: Results using her system, the giga laser. And for those that you know, you don't need the giga laser it's [00:13:00] nice 'cause if you wanna repeat what somebody else is doing that's why I like having the giga. 'cause Anne-Marie has so many cases that she could share with us. But you know, if you look at the Giga has like 36 laser diodes plus 144 LED diodes, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So it's a lot of lights that they have. So it covers a large area. But if, you know, if you play with the math a practitioner can try to replicate that with their system. It may require more time or other things, but you can do your best to replicate. Here's now where we get into the mechanism and, and there's been more studies. I'll, I'll give one more research and then I want to kind of talk about the mechanism and why I think it's of interest and hopefully more research will, will come down the pipeline on using low level laser therapy. So there was a study done in, in mice that I thought was really interesting where they lasered just one ovary.
Michelle Oravitz: So they literally did an incision, pulled out the ovary, lasered it. Put the ovary back in, stitched up [00:14:00] the mouse and put it through an IVF cycle. And the mice that had their ovaries lasered that ovary, so if it was the left only versus the right that had better they had a better response to the, to the IVF and they made better embryos.
Michelle Oravitz: So that was a pretty interesting study. Now, now, now the mechanism, like why are we interested in what can be happening? Because we have a sense that it can help. Annemarie's done a lot of case reporting. There have been studies now using lasers for advanced paternal age and PCOS endometriosis.
Michelle Oravitz: Again, I'm talking low level laser therapy. I wanna keep. Repeating that Michelle. 'cause somebody's a physician may be thinking they're laser and going,
Lorne Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's
Michelle Oravitz: we're talking class three Bs, low level laser therapy. And so PCOS endometriosis, sperm, so studies on sperm as well. There's studies using it where people have had recurrent implantation failure.
Michelle Oravitz: So they've done. [00:15:00] Multiple IVF cycles with genetically screened embryos. And then they do the laser and, and they see an improvement in that implantation uterine receptivity. There have been studies just looking at the uterus and Petri dish and doing different doses of laser showing enzymes and gene expression for uni receptivity.
Michelle Oravitz: Right. So, you know, we're starting to understand the mechanism, so we're seeing that it can help in some cases and, and here's why I got interested in it. So obviously like you, when I learn of something that can help our patients, I get very interested. They're so motivated, they invest so much time, money, and emotions into this journey.
Michelle Oravitz: When I heard about the 2008 abstract I called the IVF clinic. I talked to one of the IVF doctors involved in that clinic. In that study, I talked to the acupuncturist and we started using that laser. We actually bought that laser and started just doing transfer
Lorne Brown: And this is the giga laser.
Michelle Oravitz: This was the Luminex laser back in 2008.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause that's what was used in the transfer day study. That company's outta business now. [00:16:00] I still have the Luminex lasers, but when they have issues, you know, they're, I don't have anybody to repair them yet. I have a lot of laser systems in my clinic over the years, but that was kinda the first system I bought.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause I wanted to replicate what they're doing in the IVF setting and so, that's, you know, a system we used to just lose on use on transfer day. Then I heard about Oshiro and I started learning more. There was oh, the Brain's Way of Healing by Norman Dets. Chapter four was on using a laser for people with brain injuries, but he started sharing a couple cases of women that had endometriosis and aosis.
Michelle Oravitz: And Fred Khan is a vascular surgeon who went into laser therapy, and he's passed now, but I got to meet him several years ago. He had noticed that when he was treating these women that their pain and inflammation would go away, and a lot of them wouldn't need surgery
Michelle Oravitz: because of
Michelle Oravitz: this.
Lorne Brown: incredible.
Michelle Oravitz: And just another tangent.
Michelle Oravitz: When I was visiting Australia, I went to Roberta [00:17:00] Chow's Clinic. She's known for her publication in the Lancet, really respected medical journal journal for using low-level laser therapy for neck pain. I. Showing positive results. And she's a medical doctor, trained in acupuncture, trained in low level laser therapy.
Michelle Oravitz: And when I was at her clinic they shared that they do see a large number of women diagnosed with endometriosis. And a lot of them had had symptom relief and had gone on to conceive naturally with the diagnosis of endometriosis.
Lorne Brown: Hashimoto's
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, there's, it's been used, you know, great point. There is some studies using it on the thyroid.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause we used to think not to do it over the thyroid, but now for Hashimoto's and thyroiditis, they have shown that it, it can help with that as well. And so, going back to like that research and, and studying what and, and why we like this mechanism is the laser understanding is the mitochondria function.
Michelle Oravitz: So we've heard about that. But when. When Oshiro thought it [00:18:00] was blood flow that he thought, oh, maybe it's 'cause we're increasing blood flow, that we're seeing ovarian rejuvenation. So maybe this is why it's helping. I was thinking, I wonder if there's something else because hey, we do acupuncture and acupuncture's really good for blood flow as well, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So we got that covered. What else could it be doing? And there was the mitochondria. So, they show that low level laser therapy, when the photons can reach the, the cell that we want it to reach, it will absorb those photons and it will improve mitochondrial function and a TP. And we mention how that's important for early embryo development in the fallopian tube or in the IVF lab and for implantation.
Michelle Oravitz: Then we've learned later. 'cause I was trying to think, why did the gig have such good success rates that giga laser system and 'cause they did it just over the lower abdomen. That's where how they did it. And I was thinking, okay, theirs was a much more powerful laser than Oshiro was using a system that has, I think maybe had one to three diodes,
Michelle Oravitz: but the
Michelle Oravitz: total.
Lorne Brown: this on the [00:19:00] lower back, right?
Michelle Oravitz: He, well, he did it on the lower back for back pain, but his real treatment was around the neck and a point halfway between the nave and the xiphoid are re 12 celiac plexus. And he did that because it increases parasympathetic
Michelle Oravitz: response. Okay. So increases blood flow. I. So the giga laser people, and again we, we, I, I really do like the laser for the following reasons.
Michelle Oravitz: So I, I, you know, I was trying to understand, I wonder why the giga lasers got such good results. And I was like, okay, it has more, it's given off a lot more photons than what a Shera was. So we're getting more photons into the body. The size of it is 500 centimeters squared. It's, it covers a large area, so it's not only over the uterus, the Aries, and the fallopian tube, it's over the intestines.
Michelle Oravitz: You're probably getting a bit of the spleen, the liver
Michelle Oravitz: as well, you know the organs,
Lorne Brown: with endometriosis and kinda, you know,
Michelle Oravitz: You're getting a lot of photons into the lower abdomen. Into the pelvis. Right. And, and a lot more photons. 'cause there's so much more power and you're doing it for 23 minutes. And so I thought maybe [00:20:00] that's why theirs does, has helped since then.
Michelle Oravitz: Here's what I've learned, 'cause that was back in, you over 10 years ago, right? We're. 15 years ago probably that I learned about it. Like it's somewhere around, where are we? 2025? Somewhere around 20. I've been using it since 2008, but somewhere around probably 2013 ish I really got into, or 2012 into photo bi modulation.
Michelle Oravitz: And since
Michelle Oravitz: then
Michelle Oravitz: we've learned, it's been a while since then, we've learned that it impacts the microbiome. So the gig is over the abdomen. And I was thinking the microbiome, well, we know how much the microbiome is involved in hormonal regulation and in inflammation. Now reproductive medicine has linked implantation to the uterine microbiome.
Michelle Oravitz: And so you've got a mouth microbiome, you know, gut microbiome and all that stuff is influencing everything, right? And so. I was like, oh, the giga must be helping. 'cause it's also dealing with the microbiome. And the [00:21:00] microbiome impacts skin health. 'cause think of the inflammation, right? Impacts mood. I mean, it impacts our hormones, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So I thought, oh, that's probably a big part of it. And then we've learned that it also helps regulate, I. Blood sugars and think of metabolic disorders like PCOS that have severe blood sugar issues and metabolic disorders. They don't ovulate as well. They may have a lot of eggs, but often there's poor quality because of the environment, right, that these follicles mature in.
Michelle Oravitz: And so the lasers helping with. Blood sugar regulation. So there's all these mechanisms that it can do, and which is why I, I like the laser and the way I like to share or describe it to my patients is I like to use this metaphor. From Nourish the Soul. Before you plant the seed, it's a Chinese saying, and when it comes to fertility, nourish the soul before you plant the seed and the story goes, you know, if you had a plant and you neglected it and it looked a little withered and dry, rather than composting it, [00:22:00] if you just add more water.
Michelle Oravitz: Maybe pull some weeds, add a little fertilizer, make sure it's getting sunlight. This plant often can regain, regain its vigor and give off fruits and flowers. You've done this, right? I know. I've done this. You've done this right for a plant. So the plant always had the potential to give off fruits and flowers, but the soil was suboptimal, so the plant couldn't reach that potential.
Michelle Oravitz: We didn't do donor roots. It's the same roots, same plant, but the soil was suboptimal. So by adding water, pulling weeds, adding nutrients like fertilizer, make sunlight, the
Michelle Oravitz: plant was able to reach its potential. So in this metaphor, the plant is the egg cell or the sperm cell, right? And the soil is your cellular environment.
Michelle Oravitz: And so let's look at the laser now from a plant metaphor and think about it from the body's perspective. So. When the plan absorbs sunlight, it creates photosynthesis and it creates energy. Well, same thing. When our [00:23:00] cells absorb light, the mitochondria improves mitochondrial function and improves cellular energy.
Michelle Oravitz: We need this. When the mitochondria get old and worn out, we get old and worn out and we die. Same thing with the egg cell, right? So it's really important. So there's a mitochondria part, blood flow. What we know as a woman ages her blood flow to the reproductive system decreases, and if we can increase blood flow to the reproductive system, this is a good thing.
Michelle Oravitz: Right. And so we know that low level laser therapy can increase blood flow. This is watering the plant, making sure there's enough moisture so water can get to those roots. So low level laser therapy increases blood flow and circulation. I. If you have nutritional deficiencies, right? So we said we add fertilizer.
Michelle Oravitz: So, you know, in our practice that would be dietary therapy. That could be supplements, Chinese herbs, but guess what? There's research showing that when you use low level laser therapy, the cells absorb the nutrients better. There's one done with mice on [00:24:00] coq 10. And you know, a lot of our patients take coq 10.
Michelle Oravitz: So all these supplements that you're taking, you may even get more benefit from them because if the cell is functioning better, it's going to have a better efficiency at absorbing. Think of your body metabolism. You can eat a good diet, but if you have poor digestion, you may not absorb all those nutrients and you are just made up of trillions of cells.
Michelle Oravitz: So if you are having all these health issues, then these cells
Lorne Brown: All these supplements that people are taking, all the money they're
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, Yeah, so the laser will help with that. Let's go into inflammation. So inflammation, and there's a term I play with a medical term called inflammaging. And what that is is chronic systemic inflammation. So inflammaging, and when it comes to fertility, we wanna be as biologically young as possible.
Michelle Oravitz: And with inflammaging, what we have is accelerated biological aging. Due to systemic inflammation, and this leads to premature degenerative diseases. I [00:25:00] say premature fertility issues as well. There is now literature out there and talk about how this chronic systemic inflammation is one of the culprits behind unexplained infertility and miscarriages.
Michelle Oravitz: We already know it in PCOS, so that is known. And endometriosis, it's so obvious. The inflammation's there, but that subtle inflammation is not always as obvious. And that's what we call inflammaging. So low-level laser therapy has been shown to help with chronic help regulate inflammation. And I say regulate inflammation.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause often we say it reduces, it's more of a regulator. And I'll say this for this reason, you know, when around implantation ovulation, we don't, we don't want people to take anti-inflammatories 'cause we need a little bit of inflammation. Like we do need inflammation in our body for healing. You don't wanna shut it down and that's why you don't take it around ovulation or implantation because that could interfere with implantation.
Michelle Oravitz: Little tangent to tie into why laser's, okay? [00:26:00] 'cause it regulates inflammation. We know this, that's why it's used so much in pain and injuries 'cause it regulates inflammation. So there goes the pain and
Michelle Oravitz: swelling and accelerates
Lorne Brown: difference is um, lowering inflammation versus regulating information.
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and the difference is as follows, and there's a great back study to, to illustrate this. It's downregulating, the bad inflammatory cytokines, and it's upregulating the good ones. Right, and so it's not shutting it down. When you take an anti-inflammatory, it shuts everything down. The laser is regulating, so some are being reduced.
Michelle Oravitz: The ones that aren't gonna help us, that cause a lot of pain and infl and swelling, and then some are gonna actually help with the healing. That's why inflammation, when you have an injury and your is a normal response that the body should have. We need it for healing, we need it for ovulation implantation.
Michelle Oravitz: So the back study, if I may, for a little tangent. They looked at a study and people that have ac acute back pain often when they get on these pain meds. So these anti-inflammatories, these strong [00:27:00] pain meds, they end up with chronic back pain because although they've shut down the pain, the inflammation's, no pain, they also shut down the healing response and therefore later on you end up with chronic back pain.
Michelle Oravitz: ' cause the Bach didn't get to heal when they did the study. They sh and it was in the NIH that had recommended that. Like acupuncture, massage, yoga, low level laser therapy were suggested to be used before you use pharmaceuticals or NSAIDs. Because of that reason. 'cause it will, the low level laser therapy will regulate.
Michelle Oravitz: So the difference is when I see people for pain and they come in we will help reduce the pain with the low level laser therapy. 'cause it's bringing down those inflammatory markers that create the pain. In the swelling, but it's not shutting down those inflammatory pathways that are gonna help with healing.
Michelle Oravitz: Plus we're using, plus the mitochondria that have been damaged and the injury get rejuvenated, so it accelerates healing and reduces pain. If you use an nsaid, [00:28:00] you're just reducing all inflammation. So no pain. But also you're slowing down the healing process and now you're at risk of chronic pain later on.
Michelle Oravitz: Tying this into fertility, 'cause some people are concerned, oh my god. If it regulates inflammation, maybe I shouldn't do it. It's not like an nsaid, it's not turning off inflammation. It's regulating. Okay. It's a regulating process. And so based on that thinking, not as much concerned. Stress.
Michelle Oravitz: Stress can. So things that can affect inflammation, since we're talking about inflammation. Inflammation, a bad diet can affect inflammation. Your gut microbiome can lead to inflammation. So we talked about how the laser can help with the gut microbiome. It can't help with your diet. You have to choose a good
Michelle Oravitz: diet.
Lorne Brown: to do that by yourself.
Michelle Oravitz: We know that it helps regulate inflammation in the body, so just general inflammation. Also stress. Stress can cause inflammation. So chronic stress, worry you start to release, you know, more cortisol all the adrenal hormones and that leads to [00:29:00] chronic systemic inflammation too. If you're constantly
Michelle Oravitz: stressed,
Lorne Brown: impacts your gut microbiome too.
Michelle Oravitz: got stress impacts everything, right?
Michelle Oravitz: Because the body.
Lorne Brown: Yeah.
Michelle Oravitz: When you're under, when your body doesn't feel safe, when it's an alarm, your resources are diverted from digestion and reproduction and to go into survival mode so you could fight or flight. And so, oshiro, when he did his treatment, the Japanese medical doctor, pain specialist, his treatment to help with blood flow was to activate the parasympathetic.
Michelle Oravitz: So he was doing treatment around the carotid. You talked about that. So happens that if he's treating around the carotid, he's also getting the vagus nerve. The Stite ganglia our stomach 11 and acupuncture. If you get the right dose in there, at least 15 JUULs, we try to aim in our clinic for about 25 JUULs.
Michelle Oravitz: It can create that parasympathetic response. Just so you know, there's research when they use. So the Western medicine knows this. They do a stoic ganglia injection when people have like thoracic outlet syndrome and [00:30:00] all these issues to kinda free get rid of the pain, right? Well, when you stick a needle in there, you need an ultrasound and it's risky.
Michelle Oravitz: You, there is, it's a risky procedure.
Lorne Brown: yeah.
Michelle Oravitz: It's risky, but. RO showed with low-level laser therapy. If you put in, again, I'll say I like 25 joules. I think looking at research, I'm going by memory here. It had to be at least 15 joules, at least that you get into that area to have the effect. But there was a study that came out recently on using this, the injection for.
Michelle Oravitz: Post-traumatic stress disorder and anxiety. It came out and they talked about their sleep and their mood and well, not surprising. Why is that impacting PTSD? Why does it impact sleep and anxiety? You're engaged in the parasympathetic, the rest and digest, also known as the breed and feed, and so, and then that's the point he did over the abdomen, which so happens the giga is over.
Michelle Oravitz: Rent 12.
Lorne Brown: Right?
Michelle Oravitz: There's been research when you use low level laser therapy over there, it's, if you wanna search it, [00:31:00] LLT over the Clic Plexus, I think he called it the alpha sweep. He had this process, he did the doctor outta Germany, and it showed a parasympathetic response. So the low level laser therapy can have that autonomic nervous system.
Michelle Oravitz: Reduction, right? Like, how I, I wanna say differently. That overstimulated nervous system, that sympathetic high drive where you're not sleeping, you get headaches, your neck and shoulders are sore, you're getting hands and feet are cold, poor guts. Easily irritable, poor gut, like digestion. All that are, could be signs of sympathetic overdrive, right?
Michelle Oravitz: And remember, when you're in sympathetic, don't feel safe. The blood flow is diverted from reproduction, digestion to go to your major muscles, right? Your heart starts pumping. When you are in parasympathetic, the rest and digest breed and feed emphasis on breed for our audience. Blood flow and resources return to digestion and reproduction, and so there goes more blood flow to the [00:32:00] reproductive system.
Michelle Oravitz: And when your autonomic nervous system is happy, when you're more parasympathetic than sympathetic, we need both. It's a yin yang balance. We're just way too much in sympathetic. Thank you to social media.
Michelle Oravitz: And all the crazy politicians of our world we're, we're really, you know, in sympathetic a lot. And when we're there reproduction gets down regulated.
Michelle Oravitz: And we're in this stress response, so it's not surprising that you see more health issues. And there's a study in the West called Psycho Neural immunology, PNI, some now have named it PNEI, psycho Neuroendocrine Immunology. And basically it's the research around your thoughts and your feelings, and we have data to show you that they impact your nervous system, your endocrine system, your hormonal system.
Michelle Oravitz: Your immune system? Well, the nervous system, hormonal system, immune system, low fertility, that's a [00:33:00] huge, that's gonna affect the whole hypothalamus, pituitary ovarian axis for regular ovulation and the balance of hormones, the progesterone, estrogen, and we start having all these stress hormones and inflammation and poor blood flow.
Michelle Oravitz: There goes your microbiome. There goes. Optimizing your fertility, right? You're, you're downregulating. So this is why I think acupuncture and I also, if low level laser therapy is used in a certain way, you can really support the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system, which will then help you get into that parasympathetic response.
Michelle Oravitz: And so when you start to think, and it also one more. The Lolo La Elizabeth laser therapy is shown to help with oxidative stress. Remember we said pulling out weeds from the garden? So oxidative stress is not great for sperm. It's not great for egg quality. And as we age, especially into our mid thirties and beyond, it seems like the cells and the egg cells for sure they've noticed don't have as much resilience to deal with the oxidative stress.
Michelle Oravitz: They, and so they [00:34:00] get more damaged again, so. That's why a nice antioxidant diet is good and rest and stress reduction 'cause all those things, poor diet. And, and stress can impact oxidative stress in your body. It's just a byproduct of, of being alive. Think of it as when you, you're cutting your lawn the byproducts all that dirty grass on your lawn, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So that's the oxidative stress. But if you put a bag over the lawnmower, you don't make a mess, right? So you want to do things to deal with the. Free radicals. Another people call it body rust as well, oxidative stress or free radical damage. Bottom line is oxidative stress. Too much of it is really harmful to your cells, and particularly the sperm cell and the egg cell and photobiomodulation low level laser therapy has been shown to also.
Michelle Oravitz: Lower oxidative stress. So when you think about how it has the potential, and I say potential because it's gotta get to that cell and and just putting light on somebody doesn't mean it's gonna work. Like you can [00:35:00] stand in front of your Christmas tree, those are LEDs, red lights and yellows, but I don't think it's gonna have a therapeutic effect.
Michelle Oravitz: So there's gotta be. There's certain wavelengths that are more beneficial than others. And then there's power that's important and irradiance. Which is another form of how many joules you're getting into this little area, you know? Joules per centimeter squared, for example, and total JUULs. So many people are just putting light systems on them.
Michelle Oravitz: A lot of them are on Amazon and I don't know, they haven't been studied, so I don't know if they can or cannot help, but. There to be therapeutic. The light does have to get received by the cell, and there's a lot of
Michelle Oravitz: factors.
Lorne Brown: the skin to go deep.
Michelle Oravitz: The potential benefits that are can improve mitochondrial function, can improve blood flow and circulation can support your cell's Ability to absorb nutrients from diet and supplements can help with the gut microbiome, can lower oxidative stress, can regulate [00:36:00] inflammation and calm the nervous system.
Michelle Oravitz: That to me is why I'm so interested in low level laser therapy, and in our clinic we're usually putting it around the neck. It's over the abdomen, so it's over the ovaries, the uterus and the, and the gut microbiome where you're doing stuff on the sacrum. So we're, we kind of took what they were doing with the giga at Annemarie's clinic and then what we saw them doing with the Japanese group, URS group, how they did around the neck.
Michelle Oravitz: We call it the modified technique. And then when I talk to. Roberta Chow in Australia and Fred Kahn, they were doing a lot of sacrum work for those that had endometriosis. Put this all together pre COVID. I'm actually going to visit them in a couple of weeks. So I'm going to Japan,
Michelle Oravitz: so
Lorne Brown: you.
Lorne Brown: I
Michelle Oravitz: see what new, we'll see what more information I have for you.
Michelle Oravitz: But I, I interviewed Dr. Nakamura. And Ty and Joe who speaks both [00:37:00] Japanese English, who's an acupuncturist, was my translator. Funny story. I'll, I'll tell you the funny story is I wanted, I meet Shiro and so I went. Created a letter and used Google Translate to put it to English, to Japanese, and I sent it to all the clinics I could find in Japan that might be doing fertility and had an o Shiro on their, on their websites.
Michelle Oravitz: And I sent it. Nobody responded, but I did find takin who is a, who lives in Japan, but was at the time, lived in California, speaks both languages beautifully. And we connected and he became my translator. He did read my letter and laughingly said, you know, there's a hierarchy of, of, of respect when you talk to somebody in Japanese.
Michelle Oravitz: So he said, he's not surprised. Nobody responded to my letter. Google Translate did not do a good job.
Lorne Brown: Oh, that's so funny.
Michelle Oravitz: But, but anyways he introduced me in Acum. He was interesting because this is pre COVID, so we're in 2025 now, [00:38:00] mid 2025. And this was before 2020. I interviewed him and he had already had 10 years of data and when he shared what he was doing, so his 10 years of data, by the way, punchline is.
Michelle Oravitz: It doubled blasis rates. So people, women that have went through IVF cycle and went to Blasis, you know, but obviously weren't getting pregnant 'cause they keep coming back. If they did a series of laser treatments, a minimum of three to six months with his approach they would have doubled the blasts, the gut.
Michelle Oravitz: So even though they were three to six months older, they had doubled their blasts. How many embryos grew out to the blasts stage, which takes anywhere between five to seven days to grow out. Right. He's an acupuncturist in a clinic for IVF using acupuncture, low level laser therapy. So he was using the standard Victorian electrical acupuncture protocol for blood flow.
Michelle Oravitz: So he did that and then he did laser therapy. So I asked, what do you do? Because remember everybody I was meeting, you know, some were doing the [00:39:00] sacrum, some were just doing the abdomen, some are just doing up here. And in our clinic, we started doing it all. You know, neck, abdomen back, and he said, oh, well we do the electrical acupuncture, which we do a lot of that in our clinic with people who are going through IVF.
Michelle Oravitz: And then he says, I will do kind of the O Sheero style, then I would laser over the ovaries. And then he went and did over the POAL nerve and the sacrum. pretty similar right. And so I came up with my protocol from talking to everybody, and it felt great when I met him because he'd been doing it already for 10 years.
Michelle Oravitz: I've been doing it for, you know, not very long at that time. And he had data to show that increased blasts rates. So that's kind of my story of low level laser therapy. And in our practice we have many systems. We only have one Giga and from Annmarie Jensen, I interviewed her, so she's on our podcast on the Conscious Fertility Podcast.
Michelle Oravitz: She gave me the idea, 'cause she has, she had one giga, now she has two and she has one that's made for [00:40:00] self-serve. So people can book online. They have to have it initial, then they book online and they just come in and lie on the giga for 23 minutes after her hours. 'cause she's using the giga for her with patience.
Michelle Oravitz: So she's hands on just like I use a giga and I'm doing acupuncture at the same time. The gig goes over the acupuncture points. She has it off, off hours and her clinic's set up that you can punch in the code and then as long as you put yourself in the system, can use the giga laser off hours when she's not using it.
Michelle Oravitz: So in our clinic we have it set up that way too, that people can do self-serve giga if it's not being used in the clinic. For themselves. I will say, 'cause we only have one and there's multiple practitioners in our clinic. It's often used because people are combining it with their acupuncture treatments to get, you know, more
Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Oravitz: for your time and money.
Michelle Oravitz: So,
Lorne Brown: So
Lorne Brown: that's the one giga that you have, but what other symptom systems do you use?
Michelle Oravitz: You know, I've, I've, I've tested and played a lot, so the BioFlex system, I've had Luminex [00:41:00] paramedics, what's the one that you have? Cell?
Michelle Oravitz: Uh, have that Ulua Ulua I use just for facial. And and other probes like we, we have a lot. And if I go back to 2008 he's retired now. He's a pharmacist that was really into low level laser therapy and I went to meet him to, 'cause he had one of the systems I wanted to buy and I told him I was interested.
Michelle Oravitz: He gave me a book to read like a. Medical textbook on lasers. It was pretty intense. He says, read this first. So I read it, came back because he wanted to be able to have a good conversation and see how serious I was. So I read it, came back with a lot of questions, but he took me, he had a setup of two or three laser systems, one that I was interested in, and then he goes, I wanna show you something.
Michelle Oravitz: And he takes me to his back office. He opens up the storage area and it's laser and laser systems. It was crazy. And he said, I wanna tell you before you go down this journey. That there is no one laser that fits all, like for all the things you're gonna wanna treat. And as you [00:42:00] get knowledgeable in the laser, you're gonna want different systems because this one's better for this, this one's better for that.
Michelle Oravitz: And, and they keep evolving, right? So he goes, this is not gonna be a, a cheap habit. And I, I laughed at him thinking, great, fine. I bought my system thinking I'm good
Michelle Oravitz: and I have spent hundreds of thousands of
Michelle Oravitz: dollars on systems. 'cause I have a lot of systems that I play with. 'cause I, you know, I look at their data sheet, what can they do?
Michelle Oravitz: And, and I go for it. Right? I will say my. Interest in the giga is because of Anne-Marie Jensen, because she has such good clinical retrospective, clinical charting that she has done. Like she, she published her, her clinical data that, you know, when something is working, I'm like, great.
Michelle Oravitz: Like, you know, you've shown it. 'cause most of us when they talk about laser and for fertility, we're quoting research, but we're quoting research on somebody else's system. And so it doesn't mean just [00:43:00] because you're doing LLT that you'll get those results. You do '
Michelle Oravitz: have to,
Lorne Brown: like you'd have to be apples to apples.
Michelle Oravitz: yeah. So, you know, what's the, you know, and there's a, time and power right? Makes a difference. And so to get those total jewels, that energy in there and so, you know, let's say you wanna do four jewels, just make it up. Some systems can do four jewels. In eight seconds, right? Because the power is at 500.
Michelle Oravitz: Milliwatts, some, some systems to get the four JUULs, it may take a minute. Right. They're both four JUULs. We're learning that slower is better, so it's better to get four jus over a period of time than right away. Think of it drinking from a hose versus a fire hydrant, right? And there's a Goldilocks window, so it's, you know, the metaphors are, are looser.
Michelle Oravitz: But you know, too little, too fast too in a short time is probably not so great. And that's where more of the high powered lasers are like that,
Lorne Brown: But you know, that's what it's like being in the sun. That's why morning sunlight is easier [00:44:00] for your body to absorb. And then that, I always compare that, that hose
Lorne Brown: analogy because if you go in the middle of the day, it's not great for your skin. It's, you know, higher uv rays. And so your body's able to absorb the nutrients a lot better when it's early in the morning or later at night.
Lorne Brown: Naturally. Yeah.
Michelle Oravitz: You know, and so the, yeah, I, I give you my joke about the Christmas tree, right? Stand in front of a Christmas tree. I don't think you're gonna get any benefit, even though those are, there's a lot of red LEDs on that, on that tree. A colleague of mine once. I used to do this, people would send me their laser, not their laser, they'd send me their data sheet and I'd look through it and try and do the math.
Michelle Oravitz: Just like when I looked at the giga before I had a giga. I looked at my systems and I looked at how much was in 23 minutes based on 36 diodes, lasers, and 144 LEDs. How much is going to into the body? Don't forget, it's off the skin, not on the skin. That makes a difference. 'cause there's reflection that happens.
Michelle Oravitz: So, as I say, like, you know, they say, and again, science is always changing, but [00:45:00] it's not so much how much photons are you're emitting is how much is this, is your body absorbing? That's the key, right? Like it doesn't go well through clothes, right? So you gotta have it on the skin, not over your clothes.
Michelle Oravitz: You'll, you'll lose a lot based on what I understand at this point in time. Again, science can always change, but the research is you gotta absorb it. And so a colleague. Which I don't do this anymore. I'm saying this 'cause I don't want anybody to send me emails saying, look at my laser system. They would send me and I'd look at one of their systems.
Michelle Oravitz: And they bought for like $500 and they wanna do laser acupuncture. And I know you kind of want that four to 10 JUULs per acupuncture point. And 'cause it was such a low powered laser, I said, you're gonna have to spend about five minutes or per acupuncture point. She's like, I don't have that kind of time.
Michelle Oravitz: You know, I can't do that. I go, well, that's. If you wanna get that dosage in, that's what you're gonna need to do with that laser. And she goes, well, what can I use this for? And I said, do you ever do presentations? It's an expensive PowerPoint uh, pointer. So, you know, and, and it's not regulated, [00:46:00] the, the machine.
Michelle Oravitz: So when they test them, some of them. Don't give off the photons. They say they do 'cause it's not regulated. So you just don't know. And so clinicians, you get used to it. You see, you know, pain and injuries and scarring is really great 'cause you can see it change in a short period of time in your clinic. I happen to have a photon reader, so I've taken my systems that I've put them all under there and program it to give off so many photons.
Michelle Oravitz: And I look at the reader to see if it's giving off the photons they say. Right. So that helps. But not everybody has one of those.
Lorne Brown: Yeah, well, not everybody gets as in depth as you do, which is great. It's great for you, you know, like for your clinic 'cause you know it's working.
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well you get, you get geeky, right? I like to geek out and, and then the do the part for our listeners is what we've seen out there for pain and injuries and what we've seen for fertility from Osro, the Japanese doctor. And Anne-Marie Jensen is dosage. So time-wise it's not a one [00:47:00] treatment and you're done.
Michelle Oravitz: It's kinda like, you know, that laser acupuncture study on the transfer day, that was one treatment and done. I'm surprised there was any benefit from just one treatment. She did it and most of them say two to three treatments. A week is what you're looking at. You're looking for minimum three cycles.
Michelle Oravitz: Think of the a hundred days of follicular genesis. So those last a hundred days are really important for your, eggs or follicles to reach their peak potential. Right? And so, and Nakamura said as well, three to six months, people can go longer, but you usually see some good shift within that three to six months.
Michelle Oravitz: So you're Anne Marie prefers three times a week in the follicular. So that's, six treatments, a cycle, menstrual cycle. And by the way, if you're on Lupron or you're not trying to conceive same sex couple, there's no chance of a pregnancy. You can do it all month long, right? They just don't want you to put the photons over a developing embryo, so they don't want it over the sacrum.
Michelle Oravitz: Or over the lower abdomen after ovulation or after transfer. In our [00:48:00] practice we see people all month long, but again, because of our training and understanding in the ltil phase, if we know there's a chance of pregnancy chance. Then we use it differently. So we're using it over certain areas of the spine for nerve innervation that goes to the ovaries.
Michelle Oravitz: We're using it over the microbiome, so we're using it high up, so kind of the navel up. So we're getting to the, the liver and the small intestines. So getting into that microbiome. Impact as well. And then we continue to do the osiro and other things for st oh stem cell proliferation. I didn't mention that.
Michelle Oravitz: Below level age of therapy when it's done over certain bones, like the sternum or the tibia. 'cause you gotta access the bone has been shown to increase stem cell proliferation. I mean, if only we could tell those stem cells to go to the ovaries, but at least we're pro causing more of a proliferation, right?
Michelle Oravitz: So, that's what I would recommend. If you're looking for it you probably want to do it. At least twice a week. The first couple of cycles, ideals, probably three times a week from what we've [00:49:00] seen. And then you can cut it back 'cause you do build up accumulation of photons. Like it kind of has an cumulative effect.
Michelle Oravitz: So you kind of wanna get that momentum going. And then as the body starts to be more efficient, think about it as the cells are healing. Inflammation's dropping, nutrition's improving mi. The mitochondrias balance, your blood flows improved. It makes sense that you don't need as much 'cause your body's functioning right.
Michelle Oravitz: It's kind of doing its own thing. Eventually you get to take it away, the laser or everything you're doing because your body is now has that Healing ability primed up. Right. And so that's kind of what we recommend. And for my patients and people around the world, 'cause they like to chat, I sometimes will recommend certain home systems I like.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some people can't get to a clinic like yours or a clinic like mine. So there's a couple of systems I. I did look at that I like, and then I teach them how to use it. How I would use it for these home systems. I have one of these home systems in my home because my family uses it for their [00:50:00] aches and pains,
Michelle Oravitz: because, so it's not just for fertility, right?
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. You, you know, it's kind of like everybody should have one of these in their medicine cabinet. A good laser system for, you know, cuts and bruises and, and tears and aches and
Michelle Oravitz: pains. It's wonderful. Right.
Lorne Brown: Which systems do you recommend at home?
Michelle Oravitz: Well, I like the BioFlex system again, I put it on my reader, so it's giving, they have a home system, so it's giving, I, I could read the photons coming off of it. And they have a couple of uh, programs. So I looked at the programs to see kind of what frequency they've set it at. and it's a nice little pad that fits nicely over the lower abdomen and the sacrum.
Michelle Oravitz: And they can even put it around the carotid and the vagus nerve. so I teach them how to use that. Paramedics sends people probes. I thought they were, they're more, they're lasers. They're, I, they're more like for professional use. But they seem to they do I not seem, I know they do because I've had the, the public con contacts me saying, I have this paramedic probe how can I use it for fertility?
Michelle Oravitz: And so they'll set up a [00:51:00] consult and I will you know, we'll sit there and we'll go over it and show them where to put it and how long, et cetera. So those are the two. That I looked at and kind of spent some time with it. I used to, people would contact me and say, can you review this system? Because I bought this system.
Michelle Oravitz: Can you show me how to use it at home? I. I stopped just 'cause I don't have the time to do that, to learn every system. It takes time to go through it. I have to contact a lot of the manufacturers and a lot of them don't share their actual power and all the things that they say it can do. It's, it's not, I.
Michelle Oravitz: Sitting in front of my face on the website. It's a big dig. And then unfortunately, a lot of times when I looked into it, I didn't like to be the bear of bad news, but I was like, this is like a Christmas tree in my mind. Like, I don't think this is gonna do anything, even though they spent $3,000 on it. So I, I, you know, I don't wanna be, you know, they shoot the messenger sometimes.
Michelle Oravitz: I don't want to be the bear bad news. So, I tend not to do that at this point in time. Look at everybody's systems really because of it's just time. I, I [00:52:00] wanna have. Health balance myself, right? So I can't say yes to everything. However, I do consult people and I share with the two systems that I've looked at.
Michelle Oravitz: I've done enough of that for other people that here's what I would do if I was at home
Lorne Brown: Yeah, that's great. It's good to know that people have that option in case they don't really have an acupuncturist that has the. You know, high quality system. And this has been great, Lauren. This is great information. I've learned a lot too myself, and it's really fascinating. You should do a seminar on this or have you, done a course on this for
Michelle Oravitz: I have in process one for us, the profession, and one for the public. So, I said this ages ago, so I'm not even gonna put a date on it, but I do have a window open where I started to go through it with some images and just sharing why the ideas, and then for my colleagues to kind of walk them through what you want to target and what kind of jewels or time you want.
Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some places like the carotid is, all about time.[00:53:00]
Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.
Michelle Oravitz: Style ganglia is very important. JUULs how much energy you put
Michelle Oravitz: So I, and I'll explain that to my, to our colleagues. Um, So then they can look at their system and say, okay, to get 25 JUULs in this area, I need to do it this long,
Michelle Oravitz: or.
Lorne Brown: like
Lorne Brown: That
Michelle Oravitz: stuff.
Michelle Oravitz: So that, that's my plan. 'cause that's what I did. Like I have multiple systems and I kept on playing with the math to do this. Right. And we go on site in Vancouver to the Olive Fertility Clinic. They're one of the largest in Canada. They happen to be in Vancouver. I. And we use both acupuncture and laser on transfer day and we go on site.
Michelle Oravitz: Quick note, if I may, 'cause I forgot to mention this. They did a chart review with us two years of data where we looked at genetically screened embryos, so the PGTs and they, they did this 'cause they wanted to see if what we were doing with the acupuncture and laser was helping with uterine receptivity and they wanted to rule out embryo issue.
Michelle Oravitz: So that's why they, they wanted to look at genetically screened embryos versus just non-screen, right? Because maybe it's not [00:54:00] implanted 'cause of embryo issue. And our group over that two years of data, those that had the acupuncture. Right before and after onsite at Olive with the laser acupuncture, we had a higher pregnancy rate and a lower miscarriage rate.
Michelle Oravitz: And then we looked at, again, wasn't a study, it was a chart review, everybody. Then we went and looked at those patients and the ones that did a series of treatments leading up to transfer. So they did acupuncture and or acupuncture and laser for a series of treatments, a minimum of seven before the transfer.
Michelle Oravitz: Then plus that treatment we do on transfer day, they had a much higher pregnancy rate and lower miscarriage rate. The point is, dosage matters. So if you are doing an IVF and you have somebody in your area, my recommendation is you're going in for a series of treatments. So if you're doing a frozen embryo transfer, at least start around your ashtrays and do that two to three times a week leading up to the transfer. And on transfer day, if they can go on site. And if you're doing a retrieval, you want to do at least a hundred days, right? And if you [00:55:00] have PCOS, if you have endometriosis, if you're in your forties or.
Michelle Oravitz: Repeated IVF implantations don't work or miscarriages, then you may need even more time. So, don't hesitate. I still, I do a lot of education. I still get people contacting me just for transfer day or a week out from transfer. And we treat what, you know, we, we start, 'cause we've seen it helps just on transfer day.
Michelle Oravitz: However, we know that if we have a series of treatments for months. Before a transfer or a retrieval we suspect we'll get better results because of that soil that we get to, to support.
Lorne Brown: Amazing. This is such great information, Lauren, and for people, I know you've been on here before, but if they haven't heard your previous podcast, how can people find you?
Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Best thing is to go to accu balance.ca, spelled with one C. It has links to our Instagram. We have so many blogs on low level laser therapy for fertility, so there are a lot if you go into the blog section. So that'd be the best way. And then. The Conscious [00:56:00] Fertility Podcast to subscribe. We pretty much release once a once a week an episode, and a lot of it's on unconsciousness.
Michelle Oravitz: That's why we had you on there.
Michelle Oravitz: and sometimes it's just straight fertility with like a reproductive endocrinologist as well. So I say follow me on the Conscious Fertility Podcast and then check out acu balance.ca with one C. And they can grab a free fertility diet. It's on the homepage.
Michelle Oravitz: That we wrote, and they can look at our blogs that we have on low level laser therapy.
Lorne Brown: Awesome. Phenomenal. Well, thank you so much Lauren, for coming on today. This was amazing information. I know a lot of people are gonna get benefits from listening to this 'cause I think, you know, you hear these things, you hear about them, but you don't really understand the mechanism, how it works, what it is, and what the difference is really with what you buy on Amazon versus other brands.
Lorne Brown: So this is really, really tremendous information. So thank you so much.
Michelle Oravitz: Thank you, Michelle.
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