Ep 382 The Spiritual Side of Fertility with Ariane de Bonvoisin
On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Ariane de Bonvoisin (@arianedebonvoisin), author of Spirit Mama, to explore the deeper connection between the mind, body, and spirit in the fertility journey.
Ariane shares her personal story from corporate success to navigating fertility challenges including miscarriage and IVF, and how it led her to redefine what it means to become a mother. We discuss the hidden emotional patterns like control, perfection, and self-judgment, and how awareness of these can create powerful shifts.
We also dive into reconnecting with the body, trusting your inner voice, and cultivating a relationship with something greater than yourself. This conversation offers a more compassionate, holistic perspective for anyone feeling like something is missing from the conventional fertility approach.
Key Takeaways:
Fertility is not just physical; emotional and spiritual factors matter.
Control, perfection, and self-judgment can block natural flow.
Reconnecting with your body is essential for conception.
Awareness and self-compassion create powerful internal shifts.
Your relationship with life influences your fertility journey.
There are many ways to “mother” beyond physical birth.
Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.
Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
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https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey
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Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility
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# Video TWF: EP 382 Ariane de Bonvoisin
​[00:00:00]
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Arianne.
Ariane: Thank you, Michelle. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Michelle: Yeah, so excited to have you and, um, I'd love for you to share your origin story. I always love to start with an origin story of how you got to the work that you do. I think that, um, in so many ways we're very much aligned. We got introduced by a good friend of mine, uh, somebody who I really admire, Jessica Orner.
Um, and I knew that as soon as she said she had somebody fabulous, I was like, she must be really fabulous.
Ariane: Oh, thank you Jess. Uh, thank you Jess. If you're listening, she's like a little sister to me. Um, so my origin story, where should we start? Um, you know, I feel like I am a very global soul. I was born in the US I have European parents.
I grew up in Asia and I
married a South
Michelle: so cool.
Ariane: and I married a South African
and. Two of my [00:01:00] best friends are Australian. So, um, and I have a strange accent as you can hear. I don't know if it's English or you know, American or Australian or South African, but I, I think it's important just 'cause I feel like, um, I've always seen people way beyond. Their nationality or their roots or their origin or their language or their religion. And I think as a child growing up in, you know, pretty much every continent I went looking for what was the same in people
instead of what was different.
And I
went looking for, you know, what makes me relate to someone even though they might not look the same, sound the same. And I think it's been a little bit of a guiding thread through my life, which is where's the humanity? Where is the authenticity? And for me, where is the spirituality? Where we are all way more similar than different and we all come from the same place and we're probably going to the same place. And even though you know that, that similarity, [00:02:00] we, we don't necessarily focus on it. We don't necessarily call it the same word.
Some of it call it. love consciousness, nature, higher power, God, religion, Jesus, that it kind of all points to sort of more of an inner world that is very similar. So I'd say that was one of the three things of my life. You know, I took a few detours. From, from knowing that.
truth. Um, I took a detour into, you know, the world of high education.
I had, I have an MBA from Stanford. I sort of,
I pursued a life that I thought would make me happy externally. Um, I did 15 years in New York. I ran a venture capital fund. I started a business, I, I sort of climbed the ladder that I thought was gonna make me externally happy. Um, 'cause I forgot about how important the inner world was. And, uh, and I got really high up. And the higher I got, the less happy I became and the
less fulfilled and the less meaning. And, [00:03:00] and I thought something not quite right here because I've been promised this, uh, this journey of, you know, success and happiness and actually. I feel the opposite. Um, and so began a little bit of the unraveling of, you know, what I'd been told, what my education had told, what the mass consciousness had told me to kind of remember and unlearn things that I thought I should be to be successful or to be a woman in the world, or to do what was expected of me or to please my parents, or, you know, we've all been there. And at sort of early thirties I was like, you know, I'm in the wrong job. I was engaged to the wrong guy, or at least wrong for me. I say
that very lovingly. Um, and I was in, uh, I was just in the wrong kind of identity, you know,
and it's been a couple of decades of doing the real work, which is to realize that, you know, your inner world is as important as your outer world.
It's not. That
Michelle: If not more.
Ariane: If Yeah, exactly. If not [00:04:00] more. But
there's, there's a real need to, to really honor and focus and respect both. And so I think my, my work today, whether it's, you know, with CEOs or founders or people who are going through fertility or relationship issues or whatever it might be, is to become a little bit more of that bridge between the two, which is, you know, how, how do we lead quite a heart centered, spiritual centered. What I call below the neck life where there, there's a lot more going on here, uh, than there is sort of above the neck and, you know, make money and get married and drink wine and have sex
and, and, you know, change the world and, and be successful. But it's like, how can you have a foot in both worlds? How can you really feel like, you know, both are available and both are important. So today, I, I coach, I write books, I speak,
I do workshops, um, and I'm trying to find any way possible really to, to serve [00:05:00] my, my fellow human beings, which is really the throughput of where I just started to answer this question.
Michelle: Yes. And then your work in fertility, kind of
Ariane: Yes.
Michelle: in your fertility, how'd that come
Ariane: Yeah, you know, that's, um, it's uh, both a personal journey and also a journey just realizing what's going on in that world and wanting to sort of. Share, add, contribute in a way where, you know, anyone listening to this or anyone finding a book or a podcast, um, might have a piece of the puzzle that might be missing.
You know, and I, I really feel it is a piece of the puzzle. I was looking at all the episodes that you've done, and I was
like, wow, how many pieces of the puzzle.
Are there and available for people. It's incredible. And, you know, one piece fits in your puzzle. Another piece fits in mine, one's a corner piece.
So, so my journey on the why I even wanted to write a fertility book. Um, so I, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. Um, I [00:06:00] actually felt my child around me even before I felt my husband in my life. And, uh, so, you know, there was this soul that was like, I'm coming through, I'm coming through. And I was like, where's your dad?
Is there a dad?
And so I, uh. I started asking that presence, um, to really show me, you know, who's dad. And, uh, and I asked in some ways the, the baby, the soul to, to put my husband right in front of me. And it happened very quickly,
uh, much late.
Michelle: crazy. That's
Ariane: I, so amazing.
But when I, when I really called it in, it was very instant.
And I realized sometimes, you know, we wait for the partner
and actually the, the child is around you before and can guide you way more than you think. So I started just really listening and tuning into the guidance and, and like turning in a bit more of my inner microphone and, um. I met my husband a little bit later on.
I met him when I was 38. Um, and you know, I, I didn't feel any, any [00:07:00] rush for children. I just felt a desire for children.
And so when my son, my son happened pretty much the first time we tried, um, you
know, which is a different experience. So at 40 I got pregnant pretty much instantly. Had a beautiful pregnancy, natural birth, um, and I felt unbelievably grateful.
My son is 12 today and not today, but he's. 12 years old. Um, and then we tried for another and, uh, we had a very different experience, um, where for, you know, four or five years we tried for a second child and it did not happen. And I started turning over every possibility from the most alternative to the most traditional and scientific and, uh, I, I. You know, interviewed hundreds of people I interviewed, you know, midwives and spiritual teachers, and IVF specialists and doulas and healers of all kinds [00:08:00] in four different continents,
not. I didn't really realize that it was not for me. I, I originally thought, you know, what's, what's here, what's in South America?
What's in Africa? What's in Asia? What's, what's in Native America? You know, where, where, where, where is information that is not yet mainstream
that maybe needs to be right. You know, I had miscarriages. Uh, we tried IVF, we tried the most alternative things, um, and it didn't work. And it, it helped me go inside and kind of make it mean something where potentially, you know, there are many ways to become a mother. And, uh, and
I consider, I
consider this book
Michelle: so
Ariane: as.
Michelle: That
Ariane: As my, my next birth in some ways, and I realized that, that the journey that I was on was [00:09:00] also for myself. 'cause it helped heal myself from my grief and my feeling that we weren't complete or something was missing, or not enough. It helped me heal it to the point that I can speak about it from a very
grounded place. But I feel, you know, you can be a mother by birthing a business, a podcast, a book, a baby having pets, a school, a business, a home, a farm. You know, there are many ways to mother and to parent the world and the energy of motherhood is, is so present in some ways, and we all have it going through us. So I thought, you know, there is no way I'm gonna keep all this information for myself. And I just, you know, it took me five years to put this out because. I, I needed to be ready. You know, I, I needed to feel, I'm really ready to share this, and I'm really ready to bring this out in the world. Um, so that's, That's where the book comes from. It looks at everything from, you know, the integration of the practical, the emotional, the [00:10:00] spiritual, the relationship part, if there is one, um, things to try that you've never heard of. Um. And a, a sort of very open-minded approach to fertility and. I, I don't think it is the replacement book of any other book out there. I think it is additive. I think that the right people find it at the right time. It's definitely a word of mouth book that I'm hearing about. Um, I've had women find it and, you know, get pregnant, um, which is, which is my joy.
It just feels like I'm part of, I'm part of their joy now and instead of having the joy of a second child for me. There might be, you know, so much more joy for so many more people. So that's, uh, that's the story behind the book.
Michelle: That's amazing. Uh, it's so much, um, so much came through my mind as you were talking. I completely agree. Like I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. Um, I completely agree. Uh, [00:11:00] the way I see it is like second chakra energy and, and that can be embodied spiritually. We can have conceptions of ideas, um, so we can conceive ideas, uh, not just beings, you know, we can conceive and it is literally like giving birth to an idea because you as a channel.
Can work on so many different levels and
dimensions. So the physical dimension, of course, that's when you really plant that seed. That seed fertilizes, and it becomes like this physical, uh, manifestation. But then you can also have a conceptual manifestation and creation, and that is the energy of the second chakra.
And that's why I, I'm a big believer in this whole creativity. You know, it's interesting, so many people are missing out because of this misconception that we have to be born creative. Hello? If you're a human. You are creative.
You know, the, the fact that like if you have to reroute and go a [00:12:00] different direction, 'cause there's a detour that's being creative, like every small thing that you're doing, every decision you're making throughout the day that's being creative.
Whether. The idea or the question is, are you creating by default or are you creating consciously? So I think that it's just so cool that you were saying that. And also I thought was really interesting how you said, I have to be ready. Well, isn't that how labor comes on when it's ready? You cannot force, um,
Ariane: yes. I love that. I
Michelle: baby to come out and that was your baby.
Ariane: Yeah.
and you know, I, I think one of my biggest lessons, and I think it's a lesson for many women is I really was under the fantasy and the illusion that I controlled my life. I had controlled so many parts of my life, and this was the first time that I did not control the outcome. And it reminded me so strongly in some ways that wow. There is something bigger going on, you know, whether we [00:13:00] like it or not. Um, and if I could rest into that more than the controlling mind that, you know, was desperate to get something, have something, you know, there, there was a real shift of like, wow, you know, I'm not in control. And, and there was a relief of that. And there was a sort of, yeah, there was a, a real letting go. And I think, you know, as, as. Women, a lot of very successful women. Control is, is a safety mechanism and it's a go-to strategy, and it's a, you know, it's a, it's associated with drive and discipline and termination and getting what you want, right?
And so control in that. In some ways it's been so positive for so many things, but fertility and the journey I went on with, you know, wanting the second, it was a, a real like. There are a few programs in myself that I really had to drop. The first one was the control program. The second one was the Perfection Program.
My [00:14:00] perfect family, is this My Perfect Life? Is this my perfect husband? Is this
my perfect job? Is this perfection program? Massively had to drop. I had to drop the Superwoman program
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: because I, I, you know, I wouldn't say I was it, but it's like it
was a little bit of
Michelle: The you know, you have
Ariane: it was a bit of the. Badge of, you know, I'm a superwoman and the big one for me, especially, you know, during the harder times, was I had to drop the victim and the poor me. So that's four giant programs, which is, that's part of my life's work. I, I'm a totally different person without control, perfection, superwoman, and victim. So I don't know who I would be if I had still those operating and running my life. I, I'd be a different mother. I'd be a different wife I'd, I'd show up very differently in the world.
So, in some ways, the challenges helped me see what my programs were that were dominant. And they, they helped me see that the archetypes that I had [00:15:00] stepped into, you know, I, I became a bit of an addict. I became obsessed.
This was the only thing, right? That's
what the addict goes. It's the only thing. Instead Of seeing the beauty and like everything else that was around. So I had to drop the addict, you know, I had to drop the judge that was so judgmental of myself, my body, and what I did wrong, and it's like. Do you see? So, I mean, it was, uh, I, I can see it now in retrospect, that, and and I would encourage anyone hearing this to go, wow, what, what's my dominant program? Because, because programs, you know, we are, we are energetic beings. We're, we're we, so. Programs run the energy in the body, you know, and and conception. I is heightened in a non-controlled environment, in a loving environment, not in a judging place, not in a pushing place, not in an ad addictive place. So I, it's one of the first places I go to, which is what's the dominant program [00:16:00] going on? And I've seen it so clearly in myself, you know, that it's easy to have compassion for, you know, what's there in other people. So it was, uh, it, it's been healing. It hasn't been easy. It's been messy. Uh, those programs still show up sometimes to
bite me. Um, they
Michelle: practice, right? It's like a lifelong practices. But it's so amazing and I think it's so important that you're bringing this up because it really is like this incredible ability to recognize that
because we all have it
just in certain subjects, but we all have that, those kind of programs for whatever it is that we want and don't have.
And you know, it's kind of like this kind of, uh. The self-judgment, the criticism, the trying to overachieve or trying to achieve this certain goal and that goal can look in like so many different things,
but the energy with which we approach it is very similar. So even though completely different subject, we're still, we've all been there.
I mean, whether it's. [00:17:00] A partner trying to make something work that isn't really requited, it's not like exactly like a on both ends. And so it's trying to chase that or trying to find so, and then when you have something and so it's, it's kind of like a energy that we have towards life. But the key thing that you're saying, which I find is so empowering, is that recognition of that.
So when was it that you felt. That you really like that that switch, that recognition because when you're in the program, it is, um, it feels almost near impossible to even see that you're in it.
You really become so identified with it.
Ariane: Yeah, agreed. Um, you know, one of the things that I've done pretty much since my early twenties is I have been very focused on my own personal inner growth. Um, all the things I didn't learn in childhood, all the things I did learn in childhood that I had to earn, [00:18:00] learn in adulthood. So it, it's not easy to do the work alone. Um, you know, as women, we have this thing about, you know, I'm not gonna ask for help, or I'm not going to share, or I'm not going to, you know, get a therapist or a coach or, or, you know, go to a, a conference or, you know, a workshop. I, I was the total opposite. I was eating up. You know, personal development books, spirituality books, like very, very young.
And they, because I was like, you know, I've been taught so much about the outer world and I still don't quite get it. Um, so I think anyone who, who is able to sort of go, you know, which part of me needs a little bit of love and attention, not fixing, not help, not growth, not a to-do list. Like, you know, throw all of that stuff out.
Like this is really not about adding to the to-do list. This is about, you know, opening up more to your real and true self. Um, [00:19:00] and even in the book, you know, I sort of, I make it.
very clear like there's, there's lots of interesting, original, unique, diverse things you've never heard of that you can try that have worked for other people,
but it's, some of them will have your name on it and some of will be like, that's not me.
That's not me. So it's more of a, it's more of a journey to know yourself. Than a journey to have a baby or a journey to, you know, understand sort of life. It's more of a, you know, what, what did I forget? Or what have I not focused on? So even though these programs feel like they can be very dominant and running your life, I always say noticing fixes more than fixing.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: So even just hearing this,
you know, the noticing of, wow, like I'm, I'm an addict, or I'm a judge, or I'm a victim, or I'm, you know, in control, or even just the noticing, it's like, like you're more than [00:20:00] halfway through or the, the level of disapproval you have of yourself. So I know for me, when I upped the self-awareness, when I upped the, the noticing. With a really loving, gentle, compassionate, not like, there you go, look at you again. Take the whip out.
You know, from a, like, from a wow perspective. Wow. They're, wow. You know, the, the wow in some ways is such a sort of, it's a sweet way of looking at the program. And the program kind of the minute you put some light on it, it's sort of, it already kind of goes, okay, okay. You know, there's a wiser part of you that kind of steps in and kind of gently sort of goes, you know what? That, that's been super helpful up until this time, but it's not really helpful, especially not during a fertility period. Um, so it's, you know, you, you can only learn. Through, through loving yourself.
You cannot learn through disapproving of yourself. [00:21:00] And so this is not a, here are some sticks to beat myself up with. It's like, wow, what's here for me to see and learn with, with such love and compassion? Because there's a reason I called the book Spirit Mama, um, because to me, you know, the energy of motherhood in some ways has been a little bit separate from the. the. energy of a higher power or the divine feminine or consciousness. It's like, it, it feels like such this practical kind of approach. And I was like, both are so important that we need to kind of bring them back together. And there's so many women I've talked to who, you know, were, are pregnant, have given birth, and they, they say that the experience of being pregnant is the closest they've felt to the divine.
Right. It is the closest they felt to the something, you know, where they're not in control. You're not in control of being pregnant and what's happening and [00:22:00] giving your kid lungs or eyebrows or bones.
Michelle: Right.
Ariane: So the invitation is to start that relationship even before, which is wow. Like what would it be like to be in relationship with? That life universe, even before. Right.
And I think that's one of the messages in the book, which is that we're all, we're all equally spiritual. It's just some of us have forgotten it. And, and my hope is just to go, wow, what's, what's there for me and, and what makes sense in my language and my beliefs or my religion. Um, and I, I, I feel very strongly that it's a, a big missing piece of, of the fertility puzzle because. If, if it, if it wasn't, you know, IVF clinics would have a lot higher success rate if it really was
Michelle: Right.
Ariane: control, control, Physical. physical science, science, um, you know, we, we check genetic, we check test, we spec sperm, we check [00:23:00] thyroid.
We check, check, check. We would have much higher rates. So, so what is this percentage, which is way more than 50%, which. Us as beautiful human beings have not yet realized is a big part of the puzzle. And this is not to say that fertility clinics aren't amazing, create miracles every single day for couples, but there is a big missing piece that I think as humans we haven't quite looked at. I don't know if it's this, I just kind of go for the hundreds of people I've talked to. It, it was an unlock. It
was a key. It, It was, It was something important. And I just
go, if it can help someone,
I just wanna bring it to them.
Michelle: No, it really is. I think that that, um, you know, the spiritual, the psychospiritual, the, you know, mindset, how you see things that, when you were talking about the programs, the way I see it, kind of like the visual I had was almost, uh, a bunch [00:24:00] of chains or like, um. Like threads that were chaining, you know, the, the soul and the energy, and I, how I see it from a Chinese medicine perspective is we want that like flow, that energy.
So when we're having these things kind of suck at our energy or take us away from alignment. That's what it felt like. It was, it felt like sort of chains, you know, in, in that sense.
And what I saw connected those chains were identifications identity. Um, that's what keeps you locked into that chain, is that identify with, uh, the victim or with a control or whatever it is that you identify with that is, um, that's your power, is because you can choose to identify or you can observe once you observe you.
Have a separation. When you were talking about that, that's kind of like how I saw it. Um, and then you, then you're free, and then you're open to kind of like that source energy.
Ariane: That flows through, [00:25:00] you know, we talk about the thyroid because it's like one of the master, master, you know, glands in the body. And I'm sure, as you know, in, in what I've been told is that the thyroid is really the gland of, of self-expression, of creativity, of truth,
of birthing projects. You know, it's also right in between the head and the heart,
Michelle: Yes. I always say that. That's
Ariane: And
so many people live in the head. And
this is a mental project to take on and to win and get a gold star and succeed. And sort of, there's so many women who have thyroid issues and I
kind of go, you don't have a thyroid issue. You have a, you have a self-expression issue, you have a communication issue, you have a living your truth issue.
You have a, you're in the wrong job issue. You're, you're, you're not loving yourself Issue. You're, you're disconnected from your body issue. It's not a thyroid issue. And the minute you see that, I have seen miracles, I've seen people on thyroid [00:26:00] medication, Hashimoto's in three months, the minute they get that, they're totally clear of medication. So. You know, every gland, every organ, every, everything. And you know,
I had to learn this. I had to learn this myself, which is, you know, babies are made in the body. They're not made in the mind. And I know that sounds obvious, but as women, we are not in awe, love, magic, and wonder of our incredible female bodies. We're not in. We're not in that we're in. It doesn't work. Or they're annoying or they're fat, or they're old or they don't this, or do you see? So the beginning is just a total love affair with your body. That's, that's like the beginning. It's the beginning of attracting the love of your life. It's the beginning of, of being in a healthy body.
It's the beginning of a fertility journey. Do you see? So I kind of go to, wow, how, how do you get women back in their bodies? You know? I was in my head living in New York with big jobs for 10 years, [00:27:00]
and I had to kind of literally, you know, get back into the body because that's where babies are made.
Michelle: And that's how somatic work, uh, works. I mean, I think we try to control through the mind, you know, it's kind of like we're trying to get at things through the mind, but. Many times when we try to process it, when we go into the sensations of the body, it's a lot more manageable and we can work through so much more.
Ariane: Yeah. And the body's always talking to you.
You know, one of my favorite phrases is, uh, is the inner microphone, and we have an inner microphone, and it's been talking to us our whole life, and most of us. Are not listening or we've turned it down to like volume two or one. The good news is you can't turn it off, we've turned it down so much so we're not listening about the food or the relationship or the work or, or even what you wanna buy or, or, you know, the, [00:28:00] your, your gynecologist or the fertility clinic or we're not really listening.
And I have become obsessed. With listening to the inner microphone, and Sometimes I don't like it. Sometimes it pisses me off sometimes I'm like, it cannot be right.
Michelle: Sometimes it's inconvenient.
Ariane: Sometimes I'm like, you've got to be kidding me,
right? Like my inner microphone was like, you're, you're sleeping with the wrong guy when I was engaged, like, I do
not want to hear that, right?
Or you're in the wrong job.
It's like, this is not your path. And it's very inconvenient when you've spent years
basically. You're
like,
Michelle: takes courage
Ariane: kidding me, right? But the minute you turn that on, you'll choose the right doctor. You'll choose the right clinic, you'll choose the right partner. You'll choose the right, you know, birthing environment.
You'll choose the right name for your baby, you'll choose. It's sort of, that's where it starts. It's like I need to get back inside because the body wins all the time. The [00:29:00] body will decide. so it really makes sense that your most important relationship is with your body. It's not with your plan, it's not with the to-do list, it's with your body.
And that is a lifelong journey for all women, you know, myself included. Um, to, to sort of get back in, in some ways.
And as you. As you know, in, you know, I, I grew up with acupuncture, you know, as a kid, like my mother would like stick needles in me if I had anything going on age six, seven. I grew up with, you know, the qi and the qi gong and the, like, everything.
That's what was, how, how we were healed, how we were told that energy works and. In some ways for me it's like, how, how do you connect, you know, the, the western side, the eastern side. Like we're, we all know that we're energy. We all know that our bodies are energy. Science agrees that we're energy, we're, we're vibration, we're frequency. Our thoughts are frequency. Our words are frequency. Like I never ever use the word [00:30:00] infertility. It's very low frequency.
The body. The body doesn't like that
Michelle: There's an identification.
Ariane: Wow. Never.
Uh, it's like the body goes, what are you talking about? You
know, uh, I'm doing my process. I'm, I'm in this body. I'm healing this. I'm trying this. But that is a word that vibrates very low. Like no one feels good around that word.
No one
Michelle: a block,
Ariane: exactly. It's
Michelle: it's a do not enter.
Ariane: It's a, so that is a word that if I could, I would cancel from people.
And it's not ignoring reality. It's, it's jumping to
a, a, a Possibility.
reality. A
miracle field reality. A
magic reality, a wonder reality, A, the
body changes in half a second reality,
Michelle: just feels so good to think about, even the words that you're saying feel good.
Ariane: Yeah, but do you see the We fight for reality. The reality is I'm 40. The reality is I have PCOS. The reality is I've been trying [00:31:00] for two years. The reality, I, I've had a miscarriage. I was like, I, I hear that 'cause people need, but, but I move people out of the reality very quickly to, to, it's not even an another one.
It's just like what radio station frequency
songs do you want to be listening to? I.
Michelle: I completely understand
Ariane: So I'm obsessed with words, language, beliefs, thoughts, explanations, stories.
Do you see that's very different than the fact is I'm 40. That's a fact. I have zero, you know, frequency. I don't have a push against whatever it's a fact. But the minute the story comes into it, it's like, oh, you just, it's like a, it's like a weight belt in a scuba diver. It's like, oh, let me pull you back down, even though you want to float back up
Michelle: It's funny,
Ariane: yeah.
Michelle: I had um, I had a, my friend in podcast, um, guest. Roseanne Austin. [00:32:00] She said to me, and it was just, it reminds me because she's like, do you ever notice that when somebody says, um, you need to be realistic? It's never a positive thing that they're talking about. Like,
Ariane: said, but, but just listen, you know, and people go, the reality is,
I talk, I talk about this in the book. I was like, there's a whole
thing about the reality is, and I was like.
look, the, the reality is not, it's, it's not permanent. It's not personal and it's not pervasive. Right. Three Bs, it's not permanent.
You can, you can change it
and lots of people have shown that you can change it.
It's not personal. It's not just you. You haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't have your name on it and it's not pervasive. It should not take over your whole
life. So, so I talk about those things 'cause we usually go to one of those things.
We go to the extreme. Or we make it all about us. Right? And then there's shame and hiding and all of that, which again, the body is like, what are you doing? I don't like those [00:33:00] energies. Get me outta here. Right.
so, so, yeah. And you know, I say, I say this with so much personal experience
there, it's,
Michelle: that that's what makes you a good, uh.
Ariane: Yeah,
Michelle: that's probably why you're able to really translate those lessons and because you understand it from the inside out.
Ariane: Yeah. Yeah, completely. And to be, you know, I think that the, one of the biggest lessons I also got was, was to just be incredibly open-minded about who or what or where, and to just always say. Maybe, and I, I still live my life that way, where I go, maybe there's something amazing in this book.
Maybe I, I can learn something from this person who is totally opposite to me. So, I, I, you know, the, the being in the, the being in the, maybe is another word for being in the, I wonder. It's just such a great word. I wonder like,
Michelle: [00:34:00] Yeah, it's that
Ariane: in the wonder, I wonder how this is gonna unfold. It's, it's like, it becomes more of an adventure than a, than a sort of Yes. No good, bad success failure. This is very divisive. You
Michelle: It's true. It doesn't work like that. Even with the y the young, you know, they're complete opposite, uh, forces, but they don't go from one to the other. They, they ebb and flow and they move into and turn, and so it's a shift. It's almost like a wave. There's no like hard end,
you know? It's, it, it moves.
Ariane: yeah. Same with emotions. You know, fertility is such a highly emotional journey, and I would say all emotions are good.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: I was speaking to someone earlier who was angry and I was like, I love that you're angry. Like I really do. It's so productive. You're not gonna store it in the liver, you're not gonna store it somewhere else.
You're, it's so productive. And I [00:35:00] was like, let's fully be angry. Especially as women, we've never
been given permission and. You know, productive anger. It's like the, the body is great with that. It's like you can hold that, you know, even productive grief. So, so all emotions are so welcome on this journey.
And I feel in some ways, you know, your, your future child is preparing you because babies and children. Highly emotional, the entire field of emotions is available, and so you better feel them first so that you're not overwhelmed by them. So I feel sometimes, like the soul of a baby is, it's kind of, it's helping you even before you conceive and before you, you meet your, your child. Um, and I think, you know, the two, the two emotions that are so dominant right now on the planet are fear and uncertainty.
Michelle: Yes.
Ariane: Fertility, it's like a tuning fork. [00:36:00] It's even more fear and it's even more uncertainty. And so we, we need to, we need to not have those tuning forks really ever get around each other because when we are already living in a world that.
Is not about love and certainty or faith or kindness or, you know, contribution or growth or pick any other emotion, but when we're already bathing in this, every time we turn on our computers, have conversations, walk outside, read the news. When you put that with the other fear and uncertainty around fertility, it just doesn't help.
And so I, I always encourage people to go well. You know, we, we have a choice like fertility is, there's an intentional choice behind what we let in, who we let in, what we try. But it includes the power of choice of I need to, you know, stay in the frequency or the other side of the river of fear and uncertainty [00:37:00]
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: to, you know, faith and acceptance and love and patience. But it's a real choice, Michelle.
And it is a hard choice because there are, people are going back and forth, back and
Michelle: Well, many times people don't think they have a choice. I think that that's what it is. It's that, um, it's that awareness that realizing like really where you're at with it and what the programs are, are making you, or, you know, you're kind of falling into
or identifying within. It's, it's hard to see unless you really kind of move yourself out of it and then you're observing it with curiosity.
Ariane: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I love, I love the, the question because it, it's not about, you know, how do I feel less sad, or how do I feel less scared? Those things are, you know, they can, you, you can be, you can have faith and be scared. You can be mad and sad
and feel joyful. Do you see? And we're not told that, which is it's, it's not like one is better than the other.
[00:38:00] It's actually the allowance. Is the Right.
thing.
It's not the control of the emotion. And, and I mean, you, in your position, you know that, you know, emotions are going through organs all the time. And, and every every organ represents a different emotion. And
so the part that we get to play is how do we be more human?
Not, how do we be more perfect? How do we be less emotional? How do we be less scared? I mean, sometimes, you know, crying it out for hours is so beneficial.
There's nothing weird, there's nothing wrong. It is the most healing thing.
Michelle: I think that that's what happens is that people don't allow themselves to be immersed in fully into whatever it is. So if you feel really sad, you, you kind of like allow yourself a little bit and then you're like, I shouldn't be sad. You know? There's this judgment and then when you feel really happy, you're like, I shouldn't really feel too happy because what if this.
And it is just this constant, uh, you know, the mind will constantly convince us, rather, and then what happens [00:39:00] is that those are like forms of stagnation or stagnating thoughts that stop us
constantly. And, and if we just allow ourselves to fully immerse into the sadness, we're actually going to allow it to move through and release us
energetically.
Ariane: You know, and I think as human beings, you know, in different cultures, um, there is a real sense of attunement with nature, attunement with the seasons, attunement with loss, attunement, even with death, attunement, with, you know, aging attunement with the feminine body being revered,
never being, you know, sort of. Disapproved of,
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: um, you know, in cultures in Africa and South America where I, I spoke to a lot of people. I mean, I was blown away by, by what is, what is not in their world in some ways of a lot of what the things that we've been talking about. But the thing that is most common [00:40:00] there is that they are still very aligned with some form of a spiritual divine force.
Michelle: Hmm.
Ariane: And, and it is included. It's included in. When they eat, it's included. When they birth, it's included. When they make love, it's included when they have
ceremonies and it's like, we're, we're, so, it's not that we've, we've, we, we aren't doing it, it's just we're not including it
Michelle: we're blind to
Ariane: of, in the journey of motherhood. It's like a, it's
like, I, I need to kind of choose, you
Michelle: Yeah. We, it's just not part of, almost
Ariane: Right. It's like what? Where it's like fish. It's like they don't know they're in the water. It's like, you know, even if you've never considered yourself spiritual, it's like you are, you are in the energy and the environment of something
we don't need to
Michelle: um, when you invite it, when you invited and you acknowledge it, you will see it. And I, I see that all the time. And you actually said something that I thought was really interesting in the beginning when [00:41:00] you're talking about like, um, that sort of like that lock and key, that one thing that sort of, uh, unlocks, which is sort of, you know, that spiritual aspect.
So. I see this at my work, I've noticed it, and I'm starting to see a pattern with the women I work with. Um, I do see mostly women. Sometimes they'll, the husbands will come in, not always, uh, the majority of of people I see are women. And when they get to a place where they start a meditation practice, a spiritual practice, and they also choose, and this is an invitation that they can do to connect with spirit baby.
I see the lock and I see it on lock. I see things happening. It is crazy. The signs that they get the, um, specific sometimes to numbers, even num, like so, so specific. You can't even describe it away in any kind of formulation. I don't know. Like it's too vast and it's too mystical. There's something [00:42:00] that is way more intelligent than our brains can ever process.
And so when you start to see that and you start to see that, like I will see. Shift happening for people once they choose to take that path.
Ariane: Yeah. And the path.
doesn't have to be weird, or crystals or wearing white or drinking wheatgrass or yoga. Uh, I mean, li this is, these are, they're, they're paths for some people, you don't need to ever do any of those things. It, it is a, it's an orientation towards life. Or, or not being orientated towards life. So we can call it life instead of spirit God consciousness. 'cause you know, everyone has an orientation towards life
and for some people it's positive. Life's on their side, good things are happening. There's good people. There're lucky, there's magic, there's wonder, there's beauty, there's, there's all of that stuff. And they will, there will be a match for more of that because that is their [00:43:00] relationship to life. there's people who have a very different relationship to life. I'm unlucky. Why does all this stuff happen to me? You know, things are bad, things are scary. We live in an unsafe world, and they will be, and life will go, yeah, you're right on both of them. You will be
right. And so in some ways the most important decision we need to make, even with before fertility, is like, what is my relationship to life itself? You can call it source, you can call it God, spirit, whatever. But really what is my relationship to life itself? Because then life starts communicating with you to your point. Then you get synchronicities, then you get signs. Then someone talks about something. Then you hear this podcast, then you read a book. Then, then someone tells you. Then do you see it's. It's like life is waiting in some ways to show you that, you know, it, it's a, there's a love affair with life here before a love affair with your baby.
It's like that, that is, that
Michelle: of it. It's the whole, uh, yeah. It's like the [00:44:00] whole picture.
Ariane: it's the unity of it. And I think for me, you know, I will say it is my most important relationship because when I am connected to that. things work. I'm a better wife, I'm a better mother. I'm a better coach. I'm a better writer. I'm a better speaker.
I'm, it's like, so it is my most important relationship is my relationship to source life, whatever we wanna call it. And I, I say this in an interesting way, which is, you know, all of us pretty much have a cell phone these days, and we have a relationship to our cell phone.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Ariane: We do a pretty strong relationship to our cell phone
first thing in the morning to
Michelle: about
Ariane: thing at to last thing at night, right?
So our primary relationship is to our cell phone.
It is not to our child if we have one. It is not to our husband or parents or job. Our primary relationship is to our cell phone. Now, what do we do with our cell phone? We charge it every night.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.[00:45:00]
Ariane: Primary relationship, we charge it. And I say to people. How are you charging yourself up? Like, like, I mean,
this is way more important
than your cell phone. So how are you charging yourself up? Is it through music, a bath, a candle, water, relationships, dancing,
listening, reading, journaling, praying. Meditating.
Michelle: Yeah.
Ariane: But you must charge yourself up the way you charge yourself. Phone up.
Michelle: Absolutely.
Ariane: You must.
Michelle: Amen to that. I, that couldn't be more true. Like, I mean that's, um, it's absolutely so true, and that's where we were talking about before you can kind of like allow life to dictate how you're gonna be, or you take charge, literally, no pun intended, you take charge and you charge yourself.
Ariane: Absolutely, and you can take charge of, you know, you can take charge of so many things. I mean, a lot of people are like, you know, well IVF isn't [00:46:00] spiritual, and I was like, wow. I, I mean, to me, I go, IVF is one of the most spiritual things available to us because the conscious choice and intention of wanting a child to that level is one of the most beautiful things that you can bring in. I mean, the, the level of choice and intentionality is probably the strongest it ever it ever is, as opposed to, you know, naturally we hope it happens. Let's see what happens. And I go, you know, you can bless the needles, you can, you can pray, you can put. Angels in the room. You can, you can talk to the belly.
You can, you can You turn it into your temple. It is not less spiritual. More spiritual, like the whole thing is spiritual.
Michelle: No, it's true because my first, my very first, um, experience at an IVF transfer doing acupuncture, doing a protocol was [00:47:00] probably one of the most spiritual experiences of my
Ariane: I love hearing that.
Wow. Wow.
Such
Michelle: there and witness that moment, I was like, this is just a miracle.
Ariane: miracle. You know, you're, you're around the miracle.
as opposed to it's slightly invisible and you know, when and where might it happen. I love hearing that story.
So, you know, it's the, you know, I have a friend who, she tried many cycles and she did a surrogate, and it's like the beauty in the miracle of her relationship with this surrogate mom was extraordinary.
It
was extraordinary. It was better than some of the relationships I see between husband and wives.
Michelle: honestly, there.
Ariane: So disconnected sometimes.
Michelle: It could be any way, like, like I think that we get so hung up on like the way things are, but that's not, it's not that, it's, what you're saying is it's really the underlying intention and kind of like the, the magic in the moment, however [00:48:00] that expresses itself.
Ariane: yeah. And the soul. The soul chooses when and who and how, and even where.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Ariane: Like even where, you know, and when you realize that that is the case, there's a, there's a permission to go, huh? Maybe there's a higher intelligence here. Maybe it's not all up to me. Maybe I don't have to do anything and I need to go, wow.
There is a higher moment of connection with the soul who, you know, has chosen to come through you or, or someone else, but will find you or. That to me is, it's magical when you remember that we're not just talking about a physical journey. I mean, most people believe in the soul, the concept of something, right? And yet the soul is not part of the fertility conversation. And so, you know, I mean, in in the Spirit [00:49:00] Mama book, there's a real conversation with the, the soul that you know is. Coming through and, and where and how, and what's the relationship and what's even the karma between you and that soul, and what's the agreement and what's the script and what's the, you know, I mean, I, I go as, as far open as someone wants to go and you, you know, you might kind of go, wow, that's interesting and, and that's good enough. It doesn't have to be right or what you believe. Even if it's just, wow. You know, I'll consider that even that's an unlock,
you know.
Michelle: Amazing. I love that. Um, it's just so cool because we always talk about spirit babies and I love, uh, that you wrote a book called Spirit Mama. I think that's really incredible. And so it sounds like it's really kind of bringing more consciousness into the journey and like really, um. Seeing it step by step, like really observing all of the intricacies and also some of the [00:50:00] blocks that you may be holding that you might not even be realizing is there.
Ariane: Absolutely. It's exactly, you summarized it beautifully. I, you know, I'm thinking about. You know, I went to this temple in Bhutan a year and a half ago, where it's known as one of the most famous fertility temples in the world. I didn't know about this at the time, and there.
are more pictures of babies in this fertility temple. Um, and it's in the back of the book if anyone wants to take a trip to Bhutan.
But there was such beauty and such magic and you know, I was like, maybe someone wants to go to Bhutan, let me suggest that. Or, you know, maybe someone wants to hear how, how women. What, what are the, the, the symbolism of bringing in a child in South Africa, you know, and what they do and, and what they do with the earth and the mountain energy and because there's a Mother Earth, right?
And Cape Town is known as the mother city
and I mean, there's so much wisdom around. [00:51:00] The connection to the earth and nature and the ground and the fertility of the, the, you know, the foods we're eating and the water. And it's like, I, I, it just makes so much sense. It's not even
spiritual. It just makes so much sense. How are we not in connection with Mother Earth when we're going through a fertility journey to become a mother? Most people are not connected at all, especially if we're in a city.
Michelle: Even grounding, um, the, you know, there's so much research on how it lowers infl inflammation and helps the circadian rhythm. It really supports fertility. I tell all my patients and clients like, you gotta earth, you gotta put your feet on the earth. It's really important to do that.
And it has health benefits.
It really supports your body and supports fertility.
Ariane: yeah, absolutely. And the same, you know, get around pets.
I mean,
Michelle: Oh yeah. That love that oxytocin.
Ariane: It's like, oh my God. And you know, we, we, we have a beautiful golden retriever [00:52:00] called Waffle. And, you know, when Waffle came into the family, it, it, I mean, it really felt like, wow, here's a soul
that came into our family
Michelle: they pick you too.
Ariane: He totally picked us in a different way, and it's like, you know, he, he's like my, my brother and him, my brother, my, my dog and my son are like brothers.
Like it's a, it's an amazing soul connection, right? There's
an energy that's come into the family.
You can bring it in before, during, after.
Michelle: true.
Ariane: Do you see? It's like none of these things are scary, spiritual.
I've just put them under the umbrella of we need to remember our connection to a lot of other things that will hold and support the life journey, the
fertility journey, the relationship journey, which is a whole other thing. The birthing journey, the
pregnancy
Michelle: Everything matters and nothing is random.
Ariane: Exactly.
Michelle: Yeah. That's [00:53:00] amazing. So, so how, how do you work with people now? Um, I know you do a lot of coaching and then how can people find you?
Ariane: Yeah, so, you?
know, it's my full, very complicated French name,
Arian de. But that's my, that's my website where everything is on there from, um, how to work with me there. There's a specific website that's dedicated to the book called Spirit Mama book.com.
It's very simple. Um, it's got, you know, a few chapters that people can read just to get comfortable with it.
It's got the table of content so you can get a sense for what's there and. If it, if it resonates. Um, we also have a, what I call the Spirit Mama Manifesto that we are giving away for free,
which, um, you know, they're just, they're just, um, phrases and little reminders of just what's true. And sometimes one of those phrases is just like, oh, I really needed to
hear that.
Or, that's the one I need to focus on for the next month because I've totally [00:54:00] forgotten it. Or that one has my name on it. So that, that is avail. It's available on the website, spirit mama book.com. And then of course, Instagram. You know, both, I think the, the, uh, the manifesto is on Spirit Mama Official, which is the Instagram handle.
And then I'm, I'm on there too. In a different way. So the fertility sort of conversation is a bit more on Spirit Mama Official. Um. My, my biggest hope is just to feel like if, if there's something in this book that can help someone, it's wonderful, and if It.
doesn't help you, maybe it'll help someone you know that's going through it. Um, like I just feel we're all, we're all so in this together that if there's a way that you know, you can support someone or you know, who can support someone.
Michelle: Yeah, for sure.
Ariane: It's like a snowball effect. So I do one-on-one. Um, my one-on-ones are a little bit more broad than just fertility coaching. 'cause to me,
I don't [00:55:00] like splitting people up just in fertility and work or,
Michelle: But it all matters.
Ariane: it's like, It's like who you are at work.
Who you are at work shows up at home, who you're at home, shows up in your relationship, who you're at work shows up in the IVF clinic.
So, you know, it's not, I would never call myself a fertility coach. I would call myself a, a whole life coach
and if fertility is the doorway that we're really gonna go through, don't be surprised if I prod in a few other places that just need a bit more love and attention. Um. And then I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing whatever work I get called, I get called to do talks and workshops and,
Michelle: I love that.
Ariane: you know, it's sort of, I've, I've sort of put my hand up and said, okay, use me,
show me the way.
Use me, like pick, pick
me, basically. And I just, in some ways, I wait for a little bit of the guidance.
I'm not. Kind of pushing it. I just kind of go, I'm gonna be placed in the right [00:56:00] way with the right people,
with you. You know, I reconnected with Jess, I've known her for 20 plus years.
Michelle: Oh, wow.
Ariane: She
Michelle: an amazing person.
Ariane: She stayed with me in New York. She was like a bit of my baby sister and,
Michelle: Oh
Ariane: and it's, you know, it's just been to witness people's journey,
you know, her journey in, you know, becoming a mother and it's. It's just, it's wonderful. Everyone has, everyone has sort of a, a, A story that is, that's got miracles in it and that's got lessons in it and faith in it, and, and we need to share it. We need to share more of those
to realize how, how similar we are, how human we are, how tough some of our journeys have been. Oh my
Michelle: And it gives hope. I think a lot of people, um, really, like there's so much power in stories. Um, there's so much hope in stories. So I think that that's one of the things that I see a lot with my patients, with my, uh, group, you know, if they're talking to each other and I I, that that [00:57:00] community that happens is so powerful because when they hear each other's stories and they relate and.
It's incredibly, um, unifying and, and strengthening.
Ariane: Yeah, Michelle, it sounds like you do amazing things. I'm
excited
Michelle: love, I love this work. It's so beautiful. I just love this work. It's just, uh, it's really like the best, they, they always say like, uh, worst club best members because, um, for the fertility journey, because, um, the people are just the most amazing people like in this community. It's just incredible people like,
and, um, so loving, so like, just.
Smart, like the smartest people ever. They know like so much about it, even more than sometimes their doctors. I mean, not to say more, but they'll think about tests that, that, you know, other people should be thinking about, but they're just super, super, super sharp.
Um,
Ariane: yeah, it's like the, the awe and the, you know, I, I see, I see the humanity in women who [00:58:00] are, who are there, and it's like, oh, there's some of the most beautiful inside and out,
you know, authentic and
Michelle: And they support each other so beautifully. Like sisterhood? Yeah.
Ariane: so true.
Michelle: Amazing. So awesome. So I will have all of your links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find them. Um, so this way, um, there's no confusion. You know exactly how to find everything. Um, your, your book sounds incredible. Um, I love it.
It's just such a different perspective and I feel like it's such a reframe. It really is a reframe to look at things from a more broader, um, more spiritually based conscious perspective. So I.
Ariane: I think it's like, yeah, it's like, it's like taking the elevator and pushing the button up. Like instead of seeing it.
from the basement or the ground floor or the first floor or the
second floor, it's like, go to the penthouse
and let's see, and let's see what it looks
Michelle: Bird's eye view.
Ariane: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a little bit of
that and you know, every level counts, but it's like, let's look at all of that from [00:59:00] a different and a
higher perspective. I like the way you've said that.
Michelle: Big picture. Yeah. Amazing. So thank you so much, Arianne. This was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming.
Ariane: Thanks for all the, the great questions and the, the, you know, the positivity and the hope and the, I can feel it kind of anyone who's lucky enough to be around you or listen to this. It's
like you, you're already so much in that higher frequency, and I think you know it. Takes a few people to sort of go, oh, I, I, I wanna reach that.
So I really honor who
you.
are
Michelle: about
Ariane: and your work. It's like, it's
Michelle: Thank you.
Ariane: thank you. Michelle.
[01:00:00]