Ep 354 Oxytocin, Intimacy, and Fertility: A Sex Expert’s Guide with Susan Bratton

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by intimacy expert and author Susan Bratton (@susanbratton)  to explore the powerful connection between passion, pleasure, and fertility. Too often, trying to conceive becomes mechanical and stressful, leaving intimacy feeling like a chore. Susan brings her 20+ years of experience helping couples transform “having sex” into “making love” and shares practical tools to reignite joy and connection on the fertility journey.

We dive into her three keys to conception, relaxation, connection, and engorgement, and how practices like yoni massage, oxytocin-boosting foods, and conscious lovemaking can not only increase the chances of conceiving but also create a more vibrant and lasting intimacy. Susan also shares insights on male performance challenges, natural fertility-friendly products, and why cultivating oxytocin can be life-changing for both partners.

If you’ve been feeling like intimacy has become all about the baby-making schedule, this episode will give you a refreshing and empowering perspective on bringing back the romance and planting the seeds for a lifetime of passion.

Key Takeaways: 

• Why fertility often makes intimacy feel mechanical and how to shift that.

• The three keys to conception from a sex expert’s perspective: relaxation, connection, and engorgement.

• How yoni massage and nitric oxide support female arousal and fertility.

• Oxytocin’s overlooked role in conception, joy, and long-term intimacy.

• Practical tools to reduce stress, reignite pleasure, and support both partners through TTC.
  

Guest Bio:

Susan Bratton (@susanbratton), widely known as the “Intimacy Expert to Millions,” is a champion for lifelong passion and connection. She is the co-founder of Personal Life Media, creator of the Better Lover brand, and CEO of The20, a company producing organic and botanical supplements to support vitality. A best-selling author of over 40 books and programs, including Relationship Magic and Revive Her Drive, Susan has been featured on ABC, CBS, NBC, and is one of the most downloaded guests on countless podcasts worldwide.

Connect with Susan:

Visit her website
Follow her on Facebook
Follow her on Instagram
Watch her videos in Youtube
Get your free bottle here! 

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast season.

  Susan: Hi, Michelle. I love what you're doing so much helping mommies become mommies. That's so great.

  Michelle: Same. I'm so excited to talk to you today. I always start with an origin story, so I would love for you to introduce yourself, give us your background, and what got you into the work that you're doing.

  Susan: Sure. I think it's probably something that's very relatable, but I wish it wasn't. I had been married to my husband for 11 years. I'd never had an orgasm from intercourse and I was avoiding him for sex and he was super sad and begging didn't work and honey dos didn't work. And I just wasn't, I just wasn't really, I just couldn't anymore, and I didn't wanna get divorced from him.

  Susan: But [00:01:00] he thought there was something wrong with me and I thought there was something wrong with me. And little did we know, we just didn't know what we were doing.

  Susan: Like everybody, because we don't get taught orgasmic love making. And so we did a couple things. We went to marriage therapy and that was okay.

  Susan: Not great. They didn't know much about sex. We did a lot of personal growth work, which helped us become honest with each other, which was really helpful. And then we went to sex workshops and went, oh my God, I'm having fantastic sex now. I'm having orgasms. It was super easy to learn. Why don't, why would, why doesn't everybody learn this?

  Susan: And that was what made my husband and I start a company two decades ago called Personal Life Media, where we brought the work of our mentors online so that any couple or single anywhere in the world who wanted to learn how to have heart connected, passionate. Conscious love making could [00:02:00] learn how easy the techniques are because our human operating system wants to have orgasmic pleasure. it. just doesn't know what to do until we do it. So that's what I've been doing, and I've been having super hot sex. It keeps getting better for the last two decades.

  Michelle: Awesome. That's amazing. And it's true, it is common. It's more common than people realize, and I think people feel like they're alone and they don't realize that this is common. But not only that, we're on a fertility podcast and there's so many people who have this like whole time to mechanical, it's become so mechanical.

  Michelle: It's just leading to baby. And that's become all it is. And sometimes I hear the husbands get frustrated, the women get frustrated. So it takes the joy out of the intimacy. So I think that this is such an important topic that we're gonna be talking about today, because I think a lot of people can relate.

  Michelle: [00:03:00] Probably the majority of the patients that come into my office say the same thing and they feel like it's become. All about the baby and nothing like, it's just they don't have the energy, even also from all the stress to become more intimate. So I would love to talk about like what people can do to support that connection.

  Susan: It is so easy. I'm gonna fix the problem in the next 40 minutes.

  Michelle: I love that. Yes.

  Susan: I call

  Michelle: love you. You're fun.

  Susan: Ah, oh girl. You don't even know. I call this sexy fertility, planting the seeds for a lifetime of passion. Super silly little title about this conversation, but I actually did a keynote. For a women's event, a women's fertility event, and it went so well that I decided [00:04:00] to have my publicist reach out to fertility podcasts like yourselves.

  Susan: And man, we sent out one email to fertility podcasts and everybody was like, that's what we need. So it's huge. And I couldn't have done it without 20 years. Of teaching people how to transform, having sex into making love and all the little tips and tricks that I know for people not even trying to conceive, but who had gotten tired of having sex together.

  Susan: They were in a sexless marriage that was not pleasurable for her or whatever. And it's really, really a ver pretty simple strategy. And, I think that's the most important thing is that you have, you're at a fork in the road when you're working on your conception. And yeah, it's stressful, but it's also an opportunity and it. really depends on your mindset and when you have the mindset, oh, I'm planting the seeds for a lifetime of passion through this process, [00:05:00] I'm gonna take.

  Susan: Everything that we used to do and how we used to have sex is gonna go out the window and I'm gonna take a new a new reframe on what my sex life with my partner is like starting now, and it's just gonna keep getting better. Our whole lives long from here. That's what I'm really doing and what it really comes down to is that you have to schedule sex when you're trying to conceive because you gotta hit your ovulatory windows.

  Susan: However, you, when sex experts come in and they're like, well, you just schedule sex and you have it, that'll fix the sex marriage problem. I'm like. That does not work 'cause she doesn't wanna do it. 'cause it's a chore. It's not pleasurable. It's a job, not a vacation. And so how do you turn it into. This incredible experience that you share together where you go through it and you're having so much fun that, number [00:06:00] one, it's easy to conceive 'cause you're having fun instead of stress being stressed out about it.

  Susan: And number two, you actually look forward to the times when you have to try to make the baby and you end up having more times than you have to because you're having so much fun.

  Susan: That's the trick, making it fun and pleasurable. And the way that you do that is through working on learning new skills together in the bedroom while you're trying to conceive.

  Susan: So it's not, we have to have intercourse. It's, oh, let's try the heart tongue method. Let's try Hondo. Let's try Crouching tiger, hidden dragon. Let's try the feline grind. Let's try penis pivot. Let's try poi. Let's try this position, that position, this position, that position. Let's try to have an expanded orgasm date.

  Susan: Let's start with yoni massage. Let's find [00:07:00] my G-spot. Let's do G-spot disarming. Let's try this sex toy. Let's do a lingerie photo shoot with me in some of, you know, holding teddy bears or whatever. Like the minute you start thinking about it as. Like a couple's project, an educational learning environment, and you move away from it being, oh, we've gotta have intercourse and I've gotta ejaculate inside you.

  Susan: When you get out of the mechanics and you get into the pleasure, it really becomes fun. So some of the things that I want to talk about today are things like what I consider to be the three keys to conception from a sex expert's perspective. And I'd also like to talk about the benefits of oxytocin for fertility.

  Michelle: Yes. I actually talk a lot about this and I love that you're bringing this up.

  Susan: I wanna talk to you about it because that is interesting. I'm glad you are talking about that. [00:08:00] I also wanna talk about how to get her turned on what a woman's arousal. You know, profile is like compared to her male bodied partner and how to slow down to the female body's pace to get even further than you've ever gotten in your sex life.

  Susan: When you go on a man's pace, you don't make it very far. It's like you burning out a bright star when you go on a woman's pace. It's like a supernova.

  Michelle: Mm.

  Susan: a nebula of supernovas. And then I would like to talk about a couple of different. Basically just some rules of thumb for having success. I think that would be really important too.

  Susan: So I'm gonna give you the construct, give you some, give you some tools give you a download, a worksheet to work with. And I think that that would probably take us right through to the end of the show, if that, if [00:09:00] that sounds good

  Michelle: That sounds amazing.

  Susan: Okay. Good.

  Michelle: I'm sure everybody's like, tell me please.

  Susan: All right. Well, I would say, let's start with the three keys to conception. They are relaxation, connection, and engorgement. Does any of that surprise you that that's what I said?

  Michelle: No, because I talk about the nervous system and, and I think that also the nervous system communicates. So all of these things as from my background, I'm all about, and nitric oxide and all of that. Yeah.

  Susan: So the relaxation piece of it is very, very important because if you're stressed out, you're going to struggle to

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Susan: and I really like yoni massage for relaxation. Are you familiar with Yoni Massage.

  Michelle: Not as much.

  Susan: Okay. So are you familiar with the word yoni?

  Michelle: Yes.

  Susan: Okay, [00:10:00] great. So for your listeners who might not be Yoni, YONI is a Sanskrit word that means the portal.

  Susan: And it's really the word that I like to use for the female euro genital system. So instead of saying vagina, which is just the internal part, which feels kind of patriarchal to me because it doesn't include our pleasure areas of what, obviously the vagina's a pleasure area, but it's not the only one. So I also really like, you know, the clitoris, the urethral sponge, the perineal sponge, the labia, the clit hood, the mons, all of those.

  Susan: Things need to be pleasured so that, you know, we we're very familiar with the fact that men have these erectile tissue structures in their penis. These three long tubes of spongy tissue that get erect very quickly when blood flows in, when, when it gets turned on. But we women have the same amount of erectile tissue that's in our men's [00:11:00] penises.

  Susan: It's wrapped around our vaginal cavern. It starts at the clitoral tip, clitoral shaft, clitoral hood, the mons, the inner labia, the outer labia, the vestibule, the introital sphincter, the vaginal cavern, including the urethral sponge, which is called a G-spot sponge on the bottom and the entire vaginal.

  Susan: System, including the cervical dome. Everything is extremely orgasmic when it's activated and it needs to be activated or waken up so that the nerves send signals to the brain. The somatosensory cortex, which is the part of the brain that processes the sensation as pleasure or pain or shame. Or numbness and you can transform the pain and shame and numb numbness into pleasure with loving touch.

  Susan: So when you do a yoni massage, you're basically giving a, [00:12:00] giving a woman a genital massage. You're lying her down, you're holding her, you're kissing her, you're letting her get the, you know, the. The issues of her day, out of her system, talking about anything that needs to be cleared, having clearing conversations, checking in, connecting hearts, and then you can give her whatever she needs.

  Susan: A foot rub, a neck rub a butt rub a belly rub, a breast massage, but you can also offer her a yoni massage. And yoni is basically. An external, and it can also be internal VUL vaginal massage using some nice oils. I like two ones that I really recommend. One of the things I don't like about lubes sexual lubricants are an FDA class two category of product, and they must be, they must have preservatives in them.

  Susan: I don't mind that. I mean, there's some decent preservatives, but the [00:13:00] problem is that now lubes are kind of like our ultra processed foods. We used to use jojoba, cocoa butter, you know, things like that. Organic almond, avocado oil CBD oil, MCT oil, things like that. But then. The big brands got ahold of these things and they filled them with garbagey chemical crap.

  Susan: And if you

  Michelle: Parabens sometimes.

  Susan: Yeah.

  Susan: forever, chemicals, all kinds of things. If you don't, if you wouldn't put it in your mouth, don't put it in your yoni. Don't

  Michelle: Yeah. And some of them are not fertility friendly.

  Susan: knot at all. They're endocrine dis disruptors. They're disgusting. So there's two I like. This one is called. The Foria pleasure protocol, it's at pleasure protocol.com.

  Susan: I can have this sent to you. It has these intimacy melts that melt up inside the vaginal canal so that. [00:14:00]

  Susan: You don't have to try to get lube up there. 'cause when you're a little nervous, you're a little dry. And then their arousal oil goes on the outer vulval area to awaken that tissue. And then there's sex oil for all the slide and glide that you want.

  Susan: I also like another product that's

  Michelle: And those are sperm friendly.

  Susan: yes, sperm friendly.

  Michelle: Perfect.

  Susan: This is nude Pleasures and this is my Lover's Bundle, and it includes, and I'll, I'll get you links for this and all this stuff. It gives you a CBD based intimacy oil. There's a little light fragrance from essential oils. That's it. And what I love about it is that it also comes with some libido, botanicals.

  Susan: It comes with vitality and stamina. Supplements, they're a hundred percent natural. They're simply [00:15:00] botanicals and a mushroom complex. You can take them when you know you're moving into your window of fertility and it'll just help with blood flow, engorgement and desire.

  Michelle: Nice.

  Susan: I think that I'll take help from the plant kingdom.

  Susan: Thank you very much for some natural products. So the Lovers Bundle, the pleasure protocol. These are very, very good products. Remind me at the end if you'd like to have them sent and I'll send them off to you. So I think relaxation is really how do you get her out of her head and into her body and settling her nervous system and lowering her cortisol.

  Susan: You do that through relaxation and connection and a yoni massage and holding her really helps. It's not like you're just jumping in bed and. Sticking your penis inside her and pumping away and ejaculating. That's not what you want. You wanna make a baby [00:16:00] in a beautiful, heart connected environment. So that I think is really important because it's gonna open her heart and open her yoni and open her to the possibility of becoming with child the third.

  Susan: Key to contraception is this engorgement getting all of that tissue really plumped up in her vul vaginal system in her yoni. By manually massaging with these oils. It's almost like a pleasure ritual that she can just relax into, because for him, it takes him two minutes to get an erection, but for her, it takes her about 20.

  Susan: And that's because though we have the same amount of that spongy tissue that needs to fill with blood to increase more surface area, to send more signals Of pleasure to the big brain, our number one sex organ, we have them in nooks and [00:17:00] crannies, not in straight tubes, down a penis. And so they have to flow in and seep in, which is why nitric oxide is so important.

  Susan: Men use these PDE five inhibitors like Viagra, LA Vitra, and Cialis, which help them open those channels and get that blood flowing in there. But for women, it's really also just very beneficial to take a nitric oxide supplement. So with your permission, I would like to give away of food derived organic food.

  Susan: Fruit and vegetable derived nitric oxide supplement to heighten the blood flow, to increase the engorgement. So as the mom to be, we're getting our lady boner, our clal erection, our labial or plum, our labia are plumping up. [00:18:00] Everything's getting rich and luscious, and everything feels good. And it all works better.

  Susan: Can I give a link for that? So you'd get a free bottle? I use this just on podcast. It's get flow now.com/the

  Michelle: wholesome fertility.

  Susan: the wholesome fertility.

  Michelle: Yes, it's it's in the show notes if anybody wants to find it.

  Susan: Yes. So it's just Get Flow now. That's the name of the The Product Flow Nitric oxy booster

  Susan: Get flow free.com, the slash the wholesome fertility

  Susan: and that'll get you a free bottle. And I would take those honestly. For as long as you want.

  Susan: Because once your clitoris gets engorged and it feels as good as it feels, you're gonna be like, yeah, I'll be pretty much taking this every time I have [00:19:00] sex now. And you wanna take it at night or the morning, but you can also take it 20 minutes before love making, before your date. So relaxation, connection and engorgement are the three keys to contraception.

  Susan: They both, they all three of those really help a lot.

  Michelle: Awesome. I love that. And quick question. So we talk about the female, what if the, sometimes I have couples coming in and the male has a hard time with performance.

  Susan: Yes. Well, anytime he has performance.

  Susan: anxiety and he's. Stressed, he's going to worry too. And he's gonna feel like he needs to make this instant erection. 'cause his job is to ejaculate and get you pregnant. So I really feel like the relaxation, the holding is going to help him a lot. The connection, getting things off your chest, getting your hearts reconnected.

  Susan: And then as he's giving you a yoni massage, one of the things that you can also do is you can give him a little lingham massage. Massage afterward. Lingham is the tantric love [00:20:00] making word for penis, and that with the beautiful oils, the pleasure protocol or the lover's bundle, and then that's going to help him gain his erection because he's more relaxed afterward.

  Susan: If he has erectile dysfunction specifically, and it's not just pressure, I recommend the nitric oxide, the. The get flow free.com

  Michelle: So that's good

  Susan: I.

  Michelle: men and women.

  Susan: It's men and women. We all love the same parts, and I recommend using a vacuum erection device, a penis pump, and getting gains wave treatments. If he has ed, you can reverse it, and the penis pump that I recommend is at.

  Susan: Pumps work.com and you need to give him some space to pump. But if he pumps a couple of times a week, it'll really help with his firmness and blood flow in his penis. And then if [00:21:00] that's not enough, and he's quite Erect, highly challenged, if you will then find a Gains Wave practitioner in your area, gains wave.com/susan will have a directory.

  Susan: But what it also has, and I don't get paid for this. But I have a custom page for it because I did get a seventh treatment free for my fans and followers. And so if you go to gaines wave.com/susan, G-A-I-N-S-W-A-V-E, you will get a promo code and you'll be able to find a doctor in your area that can do these acoustic wave treatments to the penis, which rejuvenate the penile tissue and work perfectly in conjunction with the penis pumping and the nitric oxide.

  Susan: So if he shows up at a gains wave doctor and he is like, I've been doing penis pumping and I've been taking nitric oxide and I'm still not as hard as I wanna be, I'm still not as sure I can get as hard as I want. Your Gains wave.

  Susan: doctor's gonna be like, [00:22:00] that was, that was good advice. Wow. You've saved me a lot of time.

  Susan: 'cause I was gonna have you do those things too. So that's the stack for getting back your erectile erectile function.

  Michelle: Yeah. 'cause I have heard that and I, I imagine it's very frustrating because the women are like, okay, well we have like this window. And now I think, you know, there was a lot of pressure on the men and I think a lot of it's psychological because they feel like they have to perform. So I think it really impacts both, both partners.

  Susan: Yes.

  Michelle: And then talk about oxytocin. One of my favorite topics,

  Michelle: 'cause I think it's so, like, I, I say the same thing and it's not you probably saw there's not a lot of research on it for fertility. They always talk about it for labor, not so much for fertility.

  Susan: well, there's a couple things. One, it creates uterine receptivity. So You also get improved lubrication and increased cervical mucosal production, which aids in, you know, [00:23:00] moving the sperm up toward the cervix. So

  Susan: that's important.

  Michelle: Now, before, actually, before we go into this, talk about what oxytocin is, just for people who are hearing it for the first time.

  Susan: Yeah, oxytocin is not Oxycontin.

  Michelle: Yes,

  Susan: a

  Michelle: right. Different oxy.

  Susan: It's a hormone, it's a master hormone. It's actually a master signaling molecule in your body. It actually regulates a lot of your estrogen modulation as well. It's also kind of, you could think about it like the anti antidote to cortisol. It lowers your stress. And cortisol is a fertility blocker, so you wanna make sure that you are getting enough oxytocin. And the problem is that oxytocin is. It's the hormone that definitely bonds you to your infant. You make it during breastfeeding. You make it during skin to skin contact with your male partner. Women are generating more oxytocin than their male partner.

  Susan: So men [00:24:00] really need it from us to lower their stress, which is why sex lowers their stress. One of the biggest reasons. There's many reasons. But that's an important one. And then oxytocin is really interesting because. It's made by your adrenals and your gut together. So you know how most of, so much of our. Hormones are made in our gut, not just, you know, in our adrenals and things like that or our ovaries for estrogen or our testicles for testosterone or what have you. It's interesting that oxytocin is a very fragile molecule because the bacteria that makes it is a very delicate bacteria called lactobacillus rooti. And it's a, it's a milk-based lac, you know, lactobacillus and like lacto. Like milk and anytime we've taken antibiotics, we've killed off a lot, if not all of our [00:25:00] lactobacillus ide, and we've all pretty much been subject to having to take antibiotics in the modern world. And so we tend to be low oxytocin producers.

  Susan: When you start to feed your gut with lactobacillus Rooti, you start to generate oxytocin again, and then all of a sudden you are, you feel closer to your husband, you feel closer to your other children, you feel closer to your family, you feel closer to. Friends, you start to find awe in things. You tend to feel more emotion, positive, pro-social emotions, people annoy you less, which we need in our world today. Because there's a lot of external forces annoy, irking the shit out of all of us right. now, and that's a problem. We also need it to appreciate art and nature and beauty. We start to lose that, and then it attenuates our happiness, and then [00:26:00] we feel a little depressed. And so it's very good for feeling distant, disconnected, depressed, sad annoyed by people stressed out.

  Susan: The way that I do it is I follow Dr. William Davis' recipes for the yogurt. That, and I'd be happy to introduce you to Dr. Bill. He is such a doll.

  Susan: And

  Michelle: um, did he read Super Gut

  Susan: Yeah. Super?

  Susan: gut wheat belly un doctored.

  Michelle: Amazing.

  Susan: Oh, I'll introduce you to him. He's, he will do your show. He's the most beautiful man. I love him so

  Michelle: I, I, his book was fascinating.

  Susan: Yep, he is.

  Susan: And he taught me and a million other women how to make oxytocin yogurt at home. And I use a luli maker. And I just inoculate, I use milk, but you can also use nut milks 'cause I also make nut milk at home. I make it with

  Susan: my

  Susan: almond

  Michelle: milk.

  Susan: Coconut milk. I just don't like [00:27:00] all the trash from all the milk containers, so I just make my own.

  Susan: I don't want the thickeners and all the garbage

  Michelle: Exactly. No, but they have um, I found, native Forest, they do not add anything for, and it's organic coconut milk.

  Susan: That's good. And you're still making trash, Well, you're still filling up a landfill.

  Michelle: but this is true. This is true. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

  Susan: Making your own nut milk is the easiest thing in the world with an almond cow nut milk maker. You just throw the nuts in with some water, it spins it up, and you got nut milk.

  Michelle: That's awesome.

  Susan: It's, and what's nice is you can make your nut milk combinations, like you can put the mac, a little macadamia nut in there with

  Susan: your cashews.

  Susan: It's called the almond cow.

  Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. I It's, it's So fricking good

  Michelle: is why I love having this podcast. I

  Susan: I know you learn so many things, Right. Yeah.

  Susan: And then I make my own yogurt. I make it with half and half 'cause I like the fat 'cause I like that fatty 15 Pentec NOIC acid, which is so good for your heart health that comes [00:28:00] from fat milk. But it's, you know, it's made into yogurt so it's, it's good for you.

  Susan: And it's inoculated with the lactobacillus ide, which you, I make mine for 48 hours. And on on a hundred degrees. And so it's high colonizing units, so you're getting a lot of root eye. And so sometimes like the small, some days I'll make like yogurt with berries, a little bit of like sprouted granola and my collagen powder and my creatine and my protein whe and I mix it all together and I eat it for breakfast.

  Michelle: awesome.

  Susan: But this morning I had a bunch of cut up peaches and so I made a peach smoothie with my almond cow almond milk, my, my Lactobacillus Ri yogurt, and then all those other powders that I put in it, you know, that I use for my health, for my body building and my

  Michelle: It's a lot easier than it sounds.

  Michelle: I will say this, if [00:29:00] anybody's a stack of powder things, you throw 'em in with some nut milk and some yogurt and some fruit, and you're done,

  Michelle: Yeah, they have yogurt makers on Amazon. You can find all kinds and it just basically keeps it at a certain temperature for two days.

  Susan: Yeah. The one I recommend is Lu Valley,

  Susan: L-U-V-E-L-E because it will do a hundred degree temperature hold. It does a hundred, a hundred, and it does it like 80. Something a hundred and 104. Most yogurt makers make yogurt really fast, and so they're at too high a temperature and they kill off the lactobacillus root ide.

  Susan: That's how delicate it is. Once you get your oxytocin stores reestablished, it changes your life. It's nuts. When you go from being low in oxytocin to high in oxytocin, you literally shift your joy. It is

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Susan: crazy. So I think oxytocin is very [00:30:00] important for women trying to conceive, but It's also just important for alls y'alls, right?

  Susan: Like feed it to your husband, feed it to your kids. It's super good.

  Michelle: It's so good. I can't even tell you. So it's, it's so interesting because oxytocin raises around ovulation and it raises around for women and it raises after orgasm and there's just, you know, it has to have an element for conception and Chinese medicine. There's a direct relation and connection between the heart and the uterus.

  Michelle: And oxytocin's the love hormone opens the heart. So in order to open the uterus, you need to open the heart. So when do we open the uterus? We open it for menstruation. We open it to receive life, and we open it to give life. Once you have life, you open it for labor. And what does oxytocin do? It actually starts the labor process and contractions.

  Michelle: So there's so much more to oxytocin [00:31:00] than people are hearing. And I find it fascinating. I love that you're talking about this 'cause not everybody talks about this.

  Susan: Yeah. well, bill taught me everything, bill and Dr. Lindsay Berkson. I don't know if you know Dr. Lindsay, Vicki Berkson. I could introduce you to her too. She is a hormone scholar. She wrote a really good book on oxytocin, or she wrote a really good book on hormones called Sexy Brain, which is really interesting.

  Susan: And she's working on a book on oxytocin, as is Bill. So you know, it's. It's just gonna, we're gonna become more and more and more aware of the benefits of oxytocin. It changed my life, like I'm a, I'm an entirely different, happier, more calm, more grounded, more in love person. Now it has really opened my heart.

  Michelle: That's amazing and I think that that's what it is. It's like you can really, and this is what I always say, I say it sounds. Crazy for people who are really [00:32:00] in the thick of it and kind of stressed out through the fertility journey. When you're first initially going through the doctor's visits and everything gets taken out, like almost the romance of life gets taken out.

  Michelle: But I say that there, there can be a time where you can actually find that joy back before baby, before having that goal and just having that, that part, the joy is what really. Will open you up even more to that conception. And there was a study that was even done. Laughter therapy and how laughter therapy improves the chances of conception where IVF transfers succeeding.

  Michelle: So it's really fascinating and that also opens the heart. It also opens that, that joy and that ultimately when we're in that state of joy, we're present in the present moment. It's almost like a, this is what comes to my mind. Stop and smell the orgasm.

  Susan: Ah, that's so [00:33:00] cute. Yeah.

  Susan: I think I would have been a better mother. Not that I was a bad mother. I was a good mother. But I would've had more joy in my motherhood had I had better oxytocin stores. They were, they were very, I can tell, I know they were low compared to how I feel now that I've re, you know, reestablished my oxytocin stores and I eat that yogurt. So I think that that's a very interesting thing, is that you're also going to enjoy motherhood more if you establish, reestablish your oxytocin production.

  Michelle: So

  Susan: And you'll be less annoyed by your husband, which is helpful too.

  Michelle: Of course, you'll be less annoyed by a lot of

  Michelle: things.

  Susan: all people, which is really nice.

  Michelle: It is really nice and I, I will also, also meditation. I'm very big on Joe Depen on one of the things that he talks about a lot in his retreats or his meditations. He really [00:34:00] focuses on the heart center and HeartMath. And so when you're connecting and having that, and even like the meta meditation, so when you get into this kind of state of loving, you know, even cuddling with your pet, you know, those kind of things naturally can induce oxytocin.

  Susan: Yeah. Well, it's funny too, because I was thinking about, you know, when I started this conversation with you, I said, what I do is I write heart connected, conscious, passionate, love making techniques. I was, that's literally, I've said that phrase a gazillion times because that's what I do.

  Susan: My, that's like my tagline. I transform having sex into making love.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Susan: Because all we see is porn, male dominated views of what sexuality is, intercourse or oriented. So like me coming here on your show and talking about eating [00:35:00] yogurt and having yoni massages is a very. Different exper and having, you know, sex dates where you learn things while you're making love, rather than you're just doing the old, eh, eh, eh, which you do that for 11 years.

  Susan: Tell me if you wanna still have sex with your husband. I didn't. It wasn't good enough for me to just do that. Even if I had one orga, it wouldn't have been enough. I like too many other things. I need a lot more fun in bed. And speaking of fun. Here's a little piece of wisdom that was handed down, which goes exactly with what you were saying, and that is that, when we were trying to conceive and we struggled for a few years, I my, my girlfriend said, well, what we did when we were trying to get pregnant, we struggled, was we would make love. And then I would lie there and I would put my butt up on a pillow and my, my husband and I would say, go, guys. Go. Go, guys.

  Susan: Go. And we would do this little like [00:36:00] chant to encourage the sperm to make it up through the cervix and impregnate

  Susan: me. And we did that.

  Susan: one time and I conceived after years of trying from Go guys, go. Just from having fun with it, relaxing and having fun. It also helped that I quit my entrepreneurial job and I got a job with a company and I got pregnant almost right away because I didn't have to make payroll every week anymore, which was

  Susan: stressful for

  Michelle: got out of survival.

  Susan: Yes. I got out of survival, so that was good too, but I think it was Go guys, go.

  Michelle: Yes. That's amazing. I love it. You are so much fun. I'm really

  Susan: Oh girl, you don't know the half of it.

  Michelle: oh, I'm sure I am sure. That's great. But honestly, but that's what it is. It's like full of life. And that's, that really comes down to, it's not [00:37:00] just, it's not just about the pleasure, it's the pleasure of life. 'cause it can obviously be in the bedroom, but.

  Michelle: You're talking about embodying it and really having that oxytocin in your life and you know, you can start to enjoy the moments and there's more romance and joy in life in general. And that to me is life giving. 'cause when you're in the present moment, you have more of that life force vitality flowing.

  Susan: Definitely. That's the heart connection. You can't be somewhere else. Connected in heart.

  Michelle: Oh, I love that. That is so good.

  Susan: And conscious. Conscious is we're here together in this moment, and we're not just connected to each other. We're connected to all. We're connected to Gaia, we're connected to source, lovemaking, orgasmic bliss, the conjoin trance, state of pleasure.

  Susan: These connect us to [00:38:00] all that is conscious.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Susan: And when you conceive your baby with those, you know those qualities, you're making a beautiful baby.

  Michelle: That's amazing. I love that. Yeah, it's it, well, I always say love is life giving. It has that, there's a different energy. So it's kind of like, are you identified with just the material, the physical. Or is there that something else? Because if we were just physical, then cadavers would walk and they don't, and what is that extra something that makes us move and that connection that warms our bodies, you know, that's that Life force Qi Vitality.

  Michelle: So we are way more than that physical envelope envelope that we we're, you know, walking around in.

  Susan: exactly. I do love my Qi.

  Michelle: Oh yeah, the chi overflows.

  Susan: Yeah.

  Michelle: That is awesome. So for people listening to this that are like, I want more, [00:39:00]

  Susan: Yeah.

  Michelle: can they find you? Like, how can they like find your offerings? What are, what are, give us all the things.

  Susan: It's easy. Better lover.com. That's what I teach people how to do, is how to become a better lover because better lovers are made not born. Some people have good kinesthetic skills, which helps. Some people have to develop that.

  Susan: but generally. Anybody can make a baby. Procreation is not generally difficult.

  Susan: It's a penis in a vagina, some semen, and you get a baby. Sometimes you get more babies than you want, right? I mean, it's, it, Yes. there's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot of things you can do. We live in a more stressful world now, but generally. It's a pretty straightforward process, but making love, having 20 kinds of orgasms, having skills, knowing your anatomy, how to know what you want and ask for [00:40:00] it, how to do oral pleasuring, orgasmic intercourse, I mean, all the things.

  Susan: How to have a sex life that keeps getting better over time instead of swirling down the toilet. It doesn't come from doing tab A into slot B over and over and over again. Comes from having a sex life bucket list, having novelty and variety, being willing to communicate, being willing to learn, trying things, finding your freaks, you know, and there's lots of 'em, and they're fun and they change.

  Susan: As you mature, you get better in bed. As you get older, you get better. At orgasming, you get better at everything. Good sex and being a better lover is a lifetime mastery op opportunity. And one that keeps you living longer. Having a healthier and happier life because when you extend your sex span, you extend your health [00:41:00] span.

  Susan: So if you wanna have a baby with this person and you wanna have a great life together, having great. Intimacy is a cornerstone to keeping that going. So why not start with this opportunity where you have these windows to hit? Have fun in the windows.

  Michelle: I love it. This

  Susan: Good.

  Michelle: This is probably really what. Of my top episodes. It was a lot of fun.

  Susan: Oh, I'm

  Michelle: Yeah. And you're really good at what you do and you're good at describing it. You like really hit the points perfectly. So it was really enjoyable for me. I

  Michelle: have to say

  Michelle: I enjoyed it. I know that almost sounds like it has more meaning,

  Susan: Nope, it

  Susan: sounds good.

  Michelle: Yeah. No, but but this is amazing. So thank you so much Susan for coming on. I really enjoyed this episode.

  Susan: Me too. Thank you so much. Love you and love and appreciate all the [00:42:00] work that you do.

  Michelle: Same here. Awesome.

Ep 353 A Wildflower Spoke to Me: What Actually Happens at a Joe Dispenza Retreat

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m sharing my personal experience attending my fourth week-long Joe Dispenza retreat. From spontaneous moments of connection with the quantum field to powerful coherence healing experiences, I’ll walk you through what actually happens at these retreats and how Dr. Joe blends science and spirituality to help people transform and heal. I’ll also share the unexpected manifestation that left me speechless… and how I’ve started writing affirmations into thin air (yes, really!). Whether you're on a healing journey, exploring meditation, or just curious about how your mind shapes your reality, this episode is filled with practical inspiration, quantum insights, and deep personal reflection.

Key Takeaways: 

• What it’s really like to attend a Joe Dispenza week-long retreat (and why they sell out so quickly)

• How Dr. Joe bridges quantum physics, neuroscience, and ancient wisdom

• The science behind the breathwork technique that activates the pineal gland

• Why becoming “nothing” during meditation is actually the path to transformation

• A real-life manifestation story involving a wild yellow flower

• The role of coherence healing and how it’s helping people shift physically and emotionally

• How letting go of control is key—especially on the fertility journey

• A simple technique to encode intentions using your finger in the air (yes, it works!)

• Why you don’t have to attend a retreat to benefit from the work
  

If you’re curious about how to quiet your mind and gently support your body with mindset tools, my Rooted Membership is designed for you. It’s a space where I share hypnosis audios, meditations, and mindset practices to bring calm to your fertility journey. You can even try it free for 7 days and see how it feels. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/rooted-fertility-mindset-membership 

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 3 53 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvi, and today I am going to be doing something that I've been doing in the past, which is having a little summary of my experience at a Joe Dispenser retreat, and I have just completed my fourth week long retreat at Joe Dispenses.

  And of course, I have a lot of interesting kind of feedback. Coming back and I also wanted to talk to you about what he does and how it's impacted so many lives, and it's just really fascinating work. So stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: [00:01:00] So today I am talking about Joe Dispenza and my experience on the fourth week long retreat. So all in all, I've had four week long retreats and there are seven days of meditation instruction getting together with lots of different people and also doing a coherence healing or a couple of them. And it's a really, really amazing experience.

  Michelle: And then I also, on top of that, went to a fifth. But it was a shorter follow up retreat, which is about four days doing similar, but a little more advanced things than the week long. So if you guys are not familiar with Dr. Joe De Spencer's work, his work really is amazing in the sense that he bridges science and spirituality and I think like really how his main objective is to help people change.

  Michelle: What that means is literally we know we have this identification, and the idea is that we have this identification in a certain body, and when we have certain patterns and we [00:02:00] become that personality or that certain type of person not only embodies an identification, but it also has a lot of other things that go along with it.

  Michelle: And part of what he sees, or in his research is that. Part of it is how our bodies respond and reflect and express themselves, and that can have certain patterns of diseases or imbalances that show up as specific conditions. And many people who go to his retreats or even implement his work, like his meditations heal.

  Michelle: So that's really what's amazing about it, is that. They are finding lots of data and testimonials of people that go to his retreats and do this meditation, and he has a very specific breath and they heal from their conditions after being told that they can't really do that. With what's available. So that being said, a lot of people that go to this are also having doctors oversee their [00:03:00] conditions.

  Michelle: So they're not doing this instead of going to the doctor and seeking medical care. So this is many times a complimentary to trying to heal with many different types of medicine. And many different approaches. So the books that he has written thus far, the most common ones, uh, that you'll probably hear about, and there's probably other ones that are out there, but the most common ones that you'll probably hear about are how to break the habit of being yourself.

  Michelle: And that really focuses on changing and why we don't change as humans, why it feels so uncomfortable to change and really. How to overcome that because when our subconscious mind is so used to a certain pattern, then it really feels painful to change that. It feels very unsafe to shift course when you're adding a new behavior or changing the way you're thinking it's going to feel.

  Michelle: Very uncomfortable at first until the body gets used to [00:04:00] it. So other books that he's written about are You Are the Placebo and that's a really fascinating book. Talking about really mind, body, and how the placebo has always been looked at as a nuisance when it comes to research because they were trying to overcome the placebo 'cause it got in the way of them seeing if the medicine worked because the mind is so powerful.

  Michelle: But what is interesting is that. This is an amazing thing. It's not a nuisance. It's actually something that needs more attention and needs more research in its own because this tells us that the mind can really impact us physiologically. So the book shares a lot of different research and a lot of different case studies.

  Michelle: How the mind is so powerful and it can really shift so much in the body. And then another book that he has, which is also another very well-known book, is Becoming Supernatural, and that also is an amazing book. So all his books really talk a lot [00:05:00] about what he's seen at his, in his research, and in his week-long retreats and other in-person retreats.

  Michelle: What's amazing about his retreats is usually they sell out, and I would say it depends. It's maybe anywhere from 1500 people to 2000 people. Depending on the venue and what they do is, uh, many times they'll get a certain amount of people that sign up to be part of the research, and there's a research team that works there at the retreats and they will check.

  Michelle: People's blood. They will take their stool samples to look at their microbiome. They check genetics and ins insert like a little swab in the cheek and they'll, they'll really do a lot of different data points and they also check a person's e, EG. So they'll look at the brain waves. Of the meditators and they find a lot of really amazing things, and they've already had some studies they don't really like for [00:06:00] you to videotape or anything like that, but they have had studies published, so you can actually see that on Dr.

  Michelle: Joe's website. They have some studies published and they talk about some of the studies that they're doing. It's really fascinating work. It's showing that literally major changes are happening in the body. And besides even their research, just getting people's stories and hearing their testimonials are mind blowing.

  Michelle: So the way Dr. Joe teaches is he tries to give you an understanding based on a lot of quantum physics and even just scientific aspects of our minds, and really to understand and put information and. A purpose to what we're about to do. So when he gives us information, we can then apply meaning, and then we apply meaning to an act, which is the meditation and the breath.

  Michelle: We're not just doing something blindly. So he's amazing in that sense because he really educates us. Based on facts, and then he does [00:07:00] whatever it is that he's teaching. So these things are not just haphazard. He doesn't use a lot of spiritual terms either because he wants to use science as kind of like the way he approaches it.

  Michelle: And by doing that, he feels that science is the language of everybody can really connect on. Whereas if you get spiritual or use certain words that are too out there for some people, you're gonna lose a good amount of the population. Plus it is really amazing when science is catching up to a lot of old wisdom that has been taught about thousands of years.

  Michelle: So it's really fascinating to see that a lot of these things do actually have connections with spirituality, teachings that have been passed along for. Thousands of years, like Kundalini, and he talks about energy centers and he uses the word energy centers rather than chakras, but ultimately they are referring to chakras.

  Michelle: But he talks about them more in matter of fact of what is happening in the body [00:08:00] and really putting our attention. Onto certain areas of our body. Now, we haven't been taught this in schools. This is not something that anybody's really like come in contact. In the average mainstream. We're really not taught about how important our attention is and where our attention goes.

  Michelle: It really impacts our bodies and really our lives. Now, there is definitely research coming out there that talks about how our minds and our thoughts can really impact our bodies. There's been studies that have shown that visualizations really impact our bodies and it really makes a difference on the outcome of our life too.

  Michelle: Writing things down, really putting our intention out there. So these are things that we have, but we don't really know that we can use them. And so his work, he's very passionate about showing us. As humans, what we're able and capable of doing. So when it comes to fertility, and the reason why I love this so much is because for me, one of my core messages for my [00:09:00] patients and my clients and my audience really, 'cause I have the podcast, is that I want people to realize that they have more power than they might think.

  Michelle: That being said, it shouldn't take any place of medical advice or going to the doctor and doing kind of like regular real life things, but that's not what he's saying either. He's not saying to take a place of anything else. This is an addition to. What you're doing. But having that as an addition too, it could be very empowering, knowing that our minds can really make a difference.

  Michelle: Why not utilize that aspect of our life and body? So my personal experience was really interesting and a lot of what he focuses on is this breath. And the breath is basically when you exhale completely out of your lungs from your nose, and then you tighten up the area in your. Space chakra, that you tighten that area as you're exhaling and then as you're inhaling, you're [00:10:00] tightening all these different areas in your energy centers and really tightening up as you're inhaling and imagining that you're drawing up energy that we usually hold in our lower centers, which is really survival.

  Michelle: And he teaches a lot about that. Like a lot of us have that energy and is kind of sitting there pulling in the bottom area. And so we're pulling that energy and slowly by, slowly through our breath, and you're doing this like repeatedly throughout the week, you're pulling that energy and tightening at the same time all the way up through the top of your, into the sixth center, which is really the penial gland in the middle of your brain.

  Michelle: And you can watch a lot of videos on this. You can find tons and even ones where Joe Dispen. Speaks specifically about how to do the breath. You can even find this on his website if you're interested. I would definitely recommend doing that. And so by doing that, you're actually activating a lot of energy that is sitting [00:11:00] dormant in the lower centers.

  Michelle: So it's kind of like the energy centers that connect with our spine. A lot of what I do in Chinese medicine, we actually do also work on the spine as well, and that correlates to the same thing. What's interesting to me is that there's so many different backgrounds and so many different philosophies, and a lot of times if you really look at some of the ancient information and the ancient wisdom, they all point to very similar things.

  Michelle: So that's what I find really fascinating about this. But he's doing this in a little bit more of a modern way. So people are able to relate to the information a little bit more easily. So that's one of the things he always does many times with many of the meditations to prep before the meditation. And what that does is it stimulates your penial gland, which is in the center of your brain, and that he describes, has crystals in them.

  Michelle: And it also is like a radio receiver. So it's able to pick up on messages. And what's interesting to [00:12:00] me about that personally is that when I began meditating like about 20 some years ago, I really started to meditate a lot. And the more I would meditate, the more I would sit kind of in peace and quiet, and I would focus on like sensations in my body.

  Michelle: And a lot of times I would focus on like the crown of my head and the area around my head, or the area between my eyebrows when I did that. One day, like little by little, I started to feel just this natural feeling like I was drinking light through the top of my head. It was really interesting. It was like I felt like I was literally drinking gulping light at the top of my head, and it was a very spontaneous feeling that I had.

  Michelle: It's not something that was repeated, but it was something that I felt. And I said, I have no idea what this is, but I'm just feeling really good with it and I'm just gonna keep doing it. I'm just like, I have no idea what this is, but I feel like I'm downloading information. [00:13:00] And I started to feel in my real life out outside of meditation.

  Michelle: That I was getting downloads, getting information, getting information that I had no idea where it came from. And then years later when I started talking to other meditators, they would say, they would talk about these downloads. And I totally understood what that meant because I feel like people say that for a reason.

  Michelle: 'cause there's no other way to really describe what that is. But you're getting downloads of information when he talks about being a radio receiver. You're literally working on that antenna, and when you're getting quiet in meditation, you're able to connect with that. So his type of meditation is different than what I'm talking about, what I started.

  Michelle: So meditation in general, there's so many different types, and part of that meditation is really getting quiet. And a lot of ancient teachings talk about also becoming non-self, like letting [00:14:00] go of your identity. And it's really interesting. It's like this emptying, this unbecoming, like this, releasing from any kind of identification that we had.

  Michelle: We're really releasing from the clutches of your ego, which is very, very strong in that identification. It wants to know the known and it wants to have control. So what Joe Dispenza talks about is getting to this place of this unknown, and he always, many times the majority of his meditations, I don't even know that there's any that don't do this.

  Michelle: He gets into this place of nothingness and he. Has you really let go and become nothing so that you end up in a space of no time, no one, no thing, no nothing. And that has happened to me just spontaneously with my meditations before I actually got into his work. And when I was drinking that light, I was like in no place.

  Michelle: I just like completely surrendered myself. And in [00:15:00] so doing, it's really interesting how the ego will let you feel. It'll fight that because it doesn't wanna be nothing. It feels, uh, very scared to let go. And part of that is also our plans and I can kind of attribute it, you know, to how the fertility journey could be, is really our plans and our need for control of what's gonna happen.

  Michelle: And so. It's interesting how you'll get convinced through your thoughts that that is how you'll have control, but ultimately the power comes from letting go. Also, you do both you, you act and you also let go. It's kind of like that, that balance. And so he puts you in this place where you're completely nothing.

  Michelle: You're letting go. And as you're doing this, and I find personally as I've been doing this, I actually feel a sense of relief. I'll tell you why. Because for that moment I can let go of everything. Kind of like all of the responsibilities, [00:16:00] the heaviness of just life. It started to feel very freeing to just completely let go of my identity.

  Michelle: 'cause I know that it's a short time that I'm doing it. It's just during the meditation and I'm like, okay. Agreeing, I'm making an agreement with myself that during this time I can feel free to let go. And so little by little I'm training myself to feel safe in that place. And when you're doing that, you're actually allowing your nervous system to kind of reset itself.

  Michelle: Because you're moving away that pressure of your thoughts and your mind, and you're allowing your nervous system to reset itself and to feel free and to kind of like wander and through that you have access to information because again, you have this radio receiver. You're allowing yourself a state where you're able to bring that information down and that information can help you physically to rewire your body, to rebalance your body.

  Michelle: You're getting into that [00:17:00] state. Where you're able to actually receive that into your physiology, but then you're also able to do that in just your intuition and. What your next steps would be in life to be guided. So I find that really, really fascinating. So he has many different meditations and some of them are really balancing the energy centers and the other ones are actually working on creativity and manifesting, on bringing in and tuning in states of consciousness that you would like to have.

  Michelle: And so the idea, which actually is very much in link with Kabbalah. Is that there's multiple timelines and there's many infinite possibilities in the quantum field. And getting to the quantum field requires us to let go of everything we know here in this physical. 3D reality. So we're in this 3D reality.

  Michelle: The more we respond and react to this 3D reality, we are making it more real. The idea is when we take [00:18:00] ourselves away from that, temporarily go into this place of like nothingness, then we're opening ourselves up. We're going into the control center. And then we're able to access these infinite possibilities, and then we can see that happening, whatever it is that we want really to bring in.

  Michelle: We just keep doing it little by little until we get into from there into our reality. But typically what we do is, is we actually see ourselves as victims to this reality rather than realizing that our consciousness is contributing to the reality. And what's fascinating is that. This concept has been seen as new agey and woo woo for a very long time, and now he is actually bridging science with these concepts and bringing it really to parallel with quantum physics and a lot of quantum physics aligns with a lot of kabbalistic.

  Michelle: Teachings, but also some of the Buddhist teachings as well, [00:19:00] which I personally find really, really fascinating. So before we go, I wanna talk to you about a couple of things that happened. So I went with my daughter, I was finally able to convince her to come. To a Dr. Joe Dispenza retreat because I think that whether she realizes now or not the benefits of the teachings, it'll stay with her really forever.

  Michelle: So she'll always kind of come back to it if she needs to. She understands the concepts, she understands that her mind really makes a difference and her reality based on the science and what he's really shared. So I thought that was just so amazing. But then, um, we also do these walking meditations because he says that.

  Michelle: It's not enough to just think about these things and visualize them, but it's actually like when you're closing your eyes and you envision something and then you open your eyes and you walk and you walk as it. And when you're doing the walking meditations in the retreats, you're kind of in a bubble.

  Michelle: You're with a lot of other people that are doing the walking meditations. Everybody's walking around like. Totally zoned in [00:20:00] sometimes dancing, and you don't care what you look like because everybody's in the same boat, and it's so freeing to be around so many people that are in the same exact boat and nobody's gonna judge you.

  Michelle: So for that alone, it's amazing. And then they block off streets and you're really protected. So we were in Denver at the time and before my walking meditation, we were doing something called tuning into your Potentials, which means You're bringing in an object of any kind, just bringing it into your 3D reality.

  Michelle: So you're actually bringing that projection. Into your reality. So typically I'll always think about something deeper. You know, a bigger thing that I wanna change in my life. But this time I said, you know what, I'm not gonna do that. This time I'm just gonna focus on a yellow flower. So I focus on this yellow flower.

  Michelle: And then I remember in my mind, during the meditation thinking, what should it look like? Should it look like this, that, and I [00:21:00] kept like thinking in my mind all these different things about how it should look. And then this kind of inner wisdom whispered to me, let it go. Don't worry about how it's gonna look.

  Michelle: Just focus on the yellow flower. Just bring that out there. So I said, okay, let it go. So. Fast forward to the walking meditation. I think it was a day or two after, and I started walking and doing the walking meditation. Usually he starts you with your eyes closed, you're focusing on his, uh, guidance, and you're, you're basically standing up with doing the meditation with your eyes closed.

  Michelle: Then he says, open your eyes. Look around. Then walk, and then you walk and then he starts to have music. It's very powerful and really gets you into this walking meditation saying Walk as it, and really focusing on who you wanna be. And then at one point he says, okay, hold it. And then I'm walking. Usually he has, uh, these streets blocked off.

  Michelle: So in [00:22:00] this specific place, he had streets blocked off and on the side of the streets there were areas where it was really kind of like wild weeds growing everywhere. And it was just kind of random. So I closed my eyes, I walk away from the street a little bit and then I kind of like stand facing out 'cause there are still people walking.

  Michelle: Everybody's at a different timeline on their meditations. So I would. Close my eyes and I look out and I have my eyes closed completely. You have no idea what even I'm facing, and I close my eyes. I do the meditation. Then he says, open your eyes. And I open my eyes, and the first thing I see right in front of my eyes is this beautiful yellow wild flower and this flower, I mean, I didn't see flowers around it.

  Michelle: I saw a couple small ones right next to it. But the big one was right in front of my eyes and I was just shocked. 'cause for [00:23:00] that moment, not only did I see the flower, but I felt like the universe was speaking to me because the way the flower looked, had almost, it looked like a sunflower and it looked like an eye, looked like an iris looking back at me.

  Michelle: And it was, it dawned on me even before I realized it looked like an eye. I thought about that actually after. Even before that, as I'm sitting there looking and I was like, thank you. I know you see me. I know you hear me. Like you are aware of me. And I think that that was the biggest aha for me at that moment, is that the universe is aware of us and the universe is aware of our thoughts, even though we don't think it is.

  Michelle: So that to me was the mind blowing. Message that I got and took with me and I'm gonna take with me forever. So that was one of the things that really caught my eye. And then when I came home, I. Told myself, I'm gonna start [00:24:00] writing things down. But I always feel like it's kind of a pain to do because I need my, notebook and I need to find it and make the time.

  Michelle: So now I came up with this new thing and I'm gonna share it with you guys. What I started to do is, is when I'm doing something alone, instead of writing something down with a pen and paper, I just in script it into. The air. So I basically move my finger into the air and say whatever it is that I want to say for the day.

  Michelle: So if it means that I feel amazing, I feel strong, whatever it is that you wanna like really bring out into the day or into your life. You can write it down. I am like, say something in its current time, like as if it's already happened. So I am, and you can say whatever it is, and you're literally writing it into the energy around you.

  Michelle: So inscribing it into the air. And so this is something that I. Decided to do. And then I realized, okay, what happens if I run outta space? I just go in circles until I finish [00:25:00] writing whatever it is I wanna write. And I look a little crazy doing it, but I do it most of the time alone, and it really feels powerful.

  Michelle: So it was something that I thought to share with you guys as well. So that was. My experience with the Joe Dispenser retreat, I definitely highly recommend looking into his work. His work really works, literally, and it's something that I find really fascinating. So I would definitely look into his books, look into trying his meditations.

  Michelle: If you can't go to an actual workshop. You could still heal. He showed us testimonials on people who have healed before they even went to a workshop. So you can heal doing the work before even going, you don't even have to go. So that's really fascinating. And then another thing is you can actually submit an application to have a coherence healing, which is all virtual and live so.

  Michelle: People swear by it. People say that they've really felt a big [00:26:00] difference by doing those. So you can do that and you can find it on his website as well. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day. [00:27:00]

Ep 352 Why Depletion Impacts Fertility After Baby with Brooke Harmer

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Brooke Harmer (@thewellnourishedmama_), the founder of The Well Nourished Mama, a nutritionist and postpartum health expert who supports women through pregnancy, postpartum, and beyond. Brooke’s journey began as a food blogger helping college students eat well on a budget, but after becoming a mother herself, she shifted her focus to helping women heal nutritionally after birth and prepare their bodies for future pregnancies.

In this conversation, we explore how pregnancy, birth, and postpartum dramatically shift a woman’s biochemistry, gut microbiome, and hormonal balance, and why many women facing secondary infertility are actually experiencing a deep nutritional depletion. Brooke shares the foundational habits and healing foods that help rebuild nutrient stores and support fertility, whether it’s your first or third time trying to conceive.

From bone broth and Brazil nuts to the power of minerals and full-fat dairy, this episode is packed with essential advice for replenishing the body and preparing for a thriving pregnancy.

🎧 Tune in if you’re navigating secondary infertility, prepping for conception after baby, or simply want to learn how to nourish your body through all seasons of motherhood.

Key Takeaways: 

• Postpartum depletion can significantly impact future fertility.

• The body undergoes major gut, immune, and hormonal shifts during pregnancy and childbirth.

• Healing takes time, more than the traditional 6 weeks postpartum.

• Eating 3 well-balanced meals a day is foundational for hormone and fertility health.

• Minerals and full-fat foods are essential for restoring the body’s cellular function and hormonal balance.
  

If you’re curious about how to quiet your mind and gently support your body with mindset tools, my Rooted Membership is designed for you. It’s a space where I share hypnosis audios, meditations, and mindset practices to bring calm to your fertility journey. You can even try it free for 7 days and see how it feels. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/rooted-fertility-mindset-membership 

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Brooke.

  Brooke: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

  Michelle: Yes, me too. So I'd love for you, first of all, I always like to ask for the origin story and how you got into the work that you're doing. So I'd love to have you share that

  Brooke: Sure. I started out as a food blogger in college. I was just really passionate about helping poor college kids figure out how to eat healthy on a budget. So I started my blog and I got into food photography and did that for a little while.

  And then after I had my first baby, I realized that a lot of moms were looking for nutritional support for their milk supply. And so while I was kind of navigating that on my own. I started to dabble into that and eventually it morphed into full-blown mom content. , And really just diving deep into nutrition for moms.

  My specialty is postpartum, but I primarily work with pregnancy and postpartum. . [00:01:00] And now my content is centered around empowering moms to take a proactive approach to their health and also learn how to work with their healthcare providers and myself to get the best healthcare possible. A lot of people feel like it's either that they're doctors or the the functional medicine woo woo people over in this corner, or just stepping away from medicine altogether, and I don't believe in that.

  I believe that we should have a big team. On our side, and everyone has their own expertise, and so I'm here to add my own expertise when it comes to nutrition and lifestyle, specifically for the motherhood stage of your life. Because what I found is a lot of the things that we typically hear. From the health and wellness space, don't really apply to us moms because our nutritional needs are different.

  , We do not have the same 24 hours in the day that other people have. , And just really trying to understand how to take care of ourselves so that we [00:02:00] can show up and be the best moms for our families that we can.

  Michelle: Awesome. So the reason why I really thought that you'd bring so much value is because most of the time we're talking just on fertility and as if you've never had babies. But I know because I've had a lot of people reach out that a lot of people listening to this have. Secondary infertility, which is they already have babies and they wanna grow their family, but they're finding that it's not as easy as it was for their first baby, and they're trying again, and things aren't working the way they want it to.

  And from a t cm perspective, we look at like the body and pregnancy and childbearing. Really take, take a toll on your qi and your blood and Chinese medicine, which are very important for future fertility. So you can get really, really depleted. So I thought what you are offering is something kind of unique to what we've had before because I was always kind of like [00:03:00] focusing just on fertility as if you've never been pregnant before.

  But the reality is, is a lot of people listening to this have had kids before. And sometimes that in itself can be so depleting. So I thought that some of what you're offering and the things that your, your perspective can really help with secondary infertility. So I'm sure that you see this as well. I mean that the whole pregnancy process can be very depleting.

  And what are some of the things that you address for that to support people who have already had a baby, but like, are. Planning or trying, , for another one, or at least at the very least, really supporting their nutrients so that they're not as depleted and they can kind of like fill that reserve.

  Brooke: Yeah, I love how you're tying it all together because it's not, it's not just the fertility stage and then it's not just the pregnancy [00:04:00] stage. It all ebbs and flows together and it kind of creates a domino effect. So if you have been pregnant before. gut microbiome goes through these transformational changes to make sure that your body keeps your baby safe and hopefully keeps it to term, and then that your body is okay at the end of pregnancy as well.

  So there's a lot of immune system changes, a lot of gut microbiome changes that are inherently happening that we don't really see. Except through common pregnancy symptoms and what we've been taught in the past is, well, that's just part of pregnancy. You just have to put up with it. But really it's our body saying we need more support.

  So understanding how your body changes through pregnancy and then childbirth is the next event. Childbirth. Dramatically changes your body. Again, your hormones crash. , Your body goes [00:05:00] into fight or flight for an extended period of time. Research tells us that it's at least four weeks after childbirth that you are still in fight or flight because your body was so overwhelmed by everything that happened with childbirth.

  And that in and of itself also. Change is the basic functioning of our body. When your body's in fight or flight, all of the blood is diverted to keeping your heart pumping, keeping your eyes dilated, and like kind of keeping you on edge so that you are ready to run metaphorically whenever you need to.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Brooke: Because of that, our digestion slows down. We're not absorbing nutrients anymore. , Our liver is releasing glucose to keep up with the elevated cortisol. Like there's all of these changes that happen just from that event. And then on top of that we have the recovery period. Called postpartum, which is not just six weeks.

  In case you didn't know that, it's not just six [00:06:00] weeks. Um, your body literally has to rebuild it. Spent 10 months building a baby, and now it has to spend even more time rebuilding yourself. And so all of these phases put together if we're not supported. As best as possible, we can sometimes see secondary infertility because our body essentially went through the ringer and then really get to go back to where it needs to be to feel good.

  And so it's like, you know what? I'm kind of tapped out right now. I don't really have the capacity to try and do that whole baby thing again. 'cause that was a lot and I didn't really get the help that I needed. So we're gonna put a pause on that and I wanna really emphasize the pause part because. I know a lot of moms really get in their head of, oh my gosh, well now it's never gonna happen again.

  And I haven't personally been through that, but I can only imagine what it feels like to be there. And I can imagine that sometimes it really is easy to think that [00:07:00] you're just done. But I wanna emphasize that your body is saying, I need to put a pause. And if we can sit with that and say, okay, my body's on pause right now.

  How can I help my body? Get ready to go again. What does my body need from me to unpause and to be ready to get pregnant again? That feels empowering because that means that there are things that we can do and there are things that we can explore and we can be curious and say, okay, what, what, what does my body need right now?

  And really trying to understand biologically where we're coming from that's gonna make a huge difference in your approach.

  Michelle: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean it, it's very similar to how we look at it and Chinese medicine is really understanding that the body is asking for something. Typically symptoms are that, and symptoms are an amazing, amazing thing that we have. We sometimes look at it as like a really, , difficult thing or a nuisance, [00:08:00] but symptoms are actually, you're one of the most amazing aspects of your body where they're just asking you or telling you, Hey, this is a message.

  , I need something that I'm not getting. So I, I find that really, you know, empowering because you know that. Once you do find it, your body's going to respond in a positive way. So what are some of the things that you find are absolutely vital? , After, postpartum,

  Brooke: Well, the first thing is making sure that you are actually helping your body heal. A lot of us have been led to believe that healing just takes. Place within those first six weeks, and then we're in the all clear, we're good to go, and we just kind of hope for the best after that. And if you're finding that you still don't feel good at 6, 9, 12, maybe even 18 months postpartum, whatever that timeframe is, it's never too late to heal.

  [00:09:00] So if you don't feel like you got the care and. The nutrients and the attention that you needed in that initial healing phase, it's never too late to heal. You can start that process again and help nourish your body back to health. So the first thing I would say is making sure that we are really being consistent with the foundational needs of our nutrition.

  So are you eating three meals a day? You'd be shocked at how many moms are not doing that because so easy to just be like, oh, well I'll just grab my coffee and I'll hurry quick, make my kids breakfast, and then we have to run out the door, or we have to go play with toys or whatever. And then all you've had is coffee and then lunchtime comes around and you're like, man, I'm so tired.

  And it's almost my kid's nap time, and I'm just gonna quick. You know, grab the pickings off of their plate that they didn't finish, [00:10:00] and then I'll just kind of grab something later, and then you're like, oh my gosh, now I have to clean the house. So now it's two o'clock in the afternoon, you haven't had a real meal yet, and it kind of perpetuates.

  And then you're like, why am I so tired? Why am I so hungry? So to bring it all back, make sure you're eating at least three meals a day, that's the bare minimum. And then when you do sit down for a meal. Are you calm? Are you rested? Are you helping your body get to that regulated state where it's prepared to do something with the food that you're about to give it?

  That makes a huge difference in your digestion. Next thing I would say is bal, yes, balancing your plate. , It's really easy to fill up on the fun foods. Those are usually carb heavy, and I'm not saying you can't have those, but making sure that you are also prioritizing your protein and your healthy fats.

  Our eggs need a lot of micronutrients to. [00:11:00] Have a better quality and also better motility, and all of those things and micronutrients come from. Animal meats and animal products, and a lot of the fruits and vegetables that we have, as well as the dietary fat. So making sure that there's a big variety of nutrients on your plate to tell your body, Hey, we've got everything that we need to take care of ourselves and prepare for when we're ready to conceive again.

  So I would say those are like the biggest foundational things. Um, and we can kind of build on that from there, once you've got those things consistent.

  Michelle: And what are typically like foods that people should be focused on that can help them, you know, rebuild that nutrient density.

  Brooke: , Definitely animal products. I know not every mama feels comfortable, with like red meat or fish or things like that for whatever reasons. But if, if you can,, let's say, you know, [00:12:00] you are vegetarian or vegan, . By choice rather than like, for religious reasons. , I would say maybe start experimenting with some animal products, , because those are so, so, so rich in all of our B vitamins, zinc, iron, .

  Vitamin A. Just really everything our body needs, making sure we're getting those animal products in. , And if it's like a texture thing for you, then let's find some creative ways to get those in. So maybe you don't like ground meat, like ground beef or tacos, but maybe you like little steak strips. Or maybe you can do like breaded fish instead of just.

  You know, like a regular fish filet or something like that. So finding a way to enjoy that food in a way that you can eat it consistently. , I would also say if you're not doing full fat dairy switch to full fat dairy, a lot of us grew up.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Brooke: In [00:13:00] the nutritional era where everyone's like, we need to eat low fat so that we can be skinny and you know, we have to have the low fat dressings and the low fat milk and all of this stuff.

  Our hormones are built on dietary fat. Our brain is built on dietary fat, and our brain controls our menstrual cycle, and if we do not have those essential nutrients from those dietary fats, then the whole thing is just not working. So reminding yourself that you're not gonna get fat from eating whole milk Greek yogurt. Right. , And kind of making that mental shift of I need dietary fats. This is what is gonna support my body right now. , And then really eating just a really colorful plate. So shoot for 10 plant points a day. When I say plant points, that's like fruits or veggies. So think berries, avocados.

  Your root vegetables, your [00:14:00] legumes, like beans, lentils, chickpeas. Just really trying to get a variety of plants every single day is really gonna build your diversity or your nutrient portfolio so that your body has lots of stuff to choose from when it's trying to support your cycle and your ability to conceive.

  Michelle: Also great for your microbiome, so increasing that diversity. And it's interesting that you were talking about full fats 'cause there's a lot of things that you were saying is, is all just also for fertility. Even if you haven't conceived, it's beneficial. So, , full fat milk, whole milk has been shown in studies to support fertility, whereas skim milk or percentage milk has been shown to have adverse effects on hormones and, , so many things, some reproductive health.

  So you really need to have Whole Foods. When they say Whole Foods like food that is how it [00:15:00] was in the, in the first place, like it's natural nature.

  Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. And. Going along with that, just reminding yourself that you don't necessarily need to say, okay, well, if I'm in the trying to conceive phase, then I need to eat these foods, and then once I'm pregnant, I need to be eating these foods. And then once I'm postpartum, really it's sticking with these habits consistently the whole time.

  Like your body needs full fat dairy in every stage. It might be for different reasons for trying to conceive pregnancy postpartum. Your body still needs full fat dairy all the time. So sometimes it's really helpful to be like, oh, like eggs are great for pregnancy because of their choline and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

  And we kind of fall into that trap of, okay, what foods are really important right now, while I'm trying to conceive, the answer's gonna be the same then what it was yesterday if you weren't trying to conceive, we need our [00:16:00] protein, our dietary fats. Our minerals, our complex carbs, to give us fiber. Like let's try not to overcomplicate it, right?

  Let's try and to say, I'm gonna focus on a well-rounded diet that's whole foods based, that has a variety of plants and a variety of animal proteins, and I'm just gonna be consistent with that so that my body says, wow, I'm consistently getting what I need. I'm good to go. Let's unpause and let's try again for another baby.

  Michelle: And one of the questions that I often get, so the majority of my patients and my online clients are fertility related. However, they. Many times eventually get pregnant. And one of the first things that people come to me about is, what do I eat now that I'm pregnant? Like how do I shift things? And so I wanted to actually talk about that as well because I know a lot of people listening to this either are almost there or about to even prepare for a transfer, and they wanna know [00:17:00] like, what's the next step should that happen?

  So what are your thoughts on that and what are your recommendations?

  Brooke: I would say if you're going to change anything, I would just increase your mineral intake. So minerals are the spark plugs of our body, especially the electrolytes. , And they're responsible for our cellular function. So. If we're talking like vitamins versus minerals, vitamins, how I describe it in very, very layman's terms is that vitamins, , support our organs and like the bigger part of our body, well, you know, they can still help everywhere, but if we're trying to break it down, vitamins are more for the major parts for our body, like our organs and like our body as a whole.

  And the minerals are where we really see. The benefits on a cellular level that can then support the rest of our body. , We know that our eggs have more. [00:18:00] Mitochondria and more energy needs than other cells in our body. And so if we can support our health at a cellular level, it's really going to help us as we're going through these transfers or as we're trying to, , you know, support our menstrual cycle and ovulation and, , all of the other hormones that play into that symphony.

  So if you're not already eating mineral rich foods. Start doing that. Think avocados, bananas, dairy, , organ meats, nuts are really, really rich in minerals like, , copper and. Things that support our, our hormones. , And then start adding in maybe some high quality electrolyte supplements to really make sure that you have enough of those electrolytes.

  , My two brands that I have on rotation all the time are Redmond, relight, and just ingredients. I love the relight because it's higher in sodium and I love just ingredients [00:19:00] because of the potassium to sodium ratio. .

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Brooke: They both have great flavors. So I would say the only thing to really, I guess, change would be to just increase your mineral intake, because the more minerals you have, the more supported your mitochondria are, and then if your mitochondria are supported, then every cell in your body is gonna have energy to do what it needs to do.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. Definitely. , Minerals, I, I've seen so many people with, like, symptoms of magnesium deficiency and magnesium. I, I'm like, so like you really need to be on top of that. It's, , so important. Nuts too. Nuts are incredibly important because Chinese medicine sees them as rich and jing, you know, they're basically the plant, , version of our eggs and sperm.

  'cause they have everything that they need in order to reproduce and to kind of flourish into a sprout, which is really what pregnancy is. It's like a sprouting of the [00:20:00] body. So as far as nuts go, , do you have any suggestions? I know some people say to have them soaked and to have them raw. , When you do soak them, they do kind of like, it starts this sprouting process.

  So I wanted to get your take on that.

  Brooke: You know, I love the the sprouting idea. I think that's awesome. And there has been some research that shows that that's probably the preferred way to eat some of your nuts and seeds for me. I already feel stretched for time as is, and so I would say if you're trying to choose between doing it the right way and doing it at all, I would just focus on doing it.

  And then you can get consistent and find time. To try the sprouting or the organic or whatever, then that's awesome, but let's make sure we're doing it first. , As for the type of nuts, Brazil nuts are super great for our thyroid. , They're really high in selenium. You only need two maximum a day get your, your [00:21:00] daily needs for selenium.

  , And then

  Michelle: and no more that actually. 'cause you can go overboard.

  Brooke: Yeah, so like one or two max. , And then I also love pumpkin seeds and pistachios, pumpkin seeds, especially because, , they're rich in tryptophan, which is the building block for melatonin. And you're sleeping better, you are detoxing and restoring better, which means your body is more capable of.

  Being able to support, , fertility and pregnancy. So I love pumpkin seeds. And then I also love pistachios because they're really rich in copper. And copper supports our digestion of protein. So you could be eating a lot of protein and then not actually getting all the benefits of it because you don't have enough copper in your system.

  So copper is another great one. And we get those from pistachios.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's interesting. It's, , kind of similar to vitamin [00:22:00] D with magnesium is that, , we can have lots of vitamin D but we don't process it. We need magnesium. So it just kind of shows how everything's such a symphony and that's why it's so important to eat diverse foods and really look at everything.

  . So it, it's important that diversity of food in eating the rainbow, really looking at everything. , And I know that you like, , bone broth as well. We talked about that on your podcast.

  Brooke: Yes, I do love bone broth. It's, it's really a triple win. You get the protein and you get the electrolytes, and you get the amino acids, , and it's just incredible. So instead of cooking your rice. Or your noodles in water, cook them in bone broth, and that's a super easy way get it in. If you don't like drinking it, that's fine.

  Let's find other ways to sneak it in and just make that a part of your daily routine.

  Michelle: Yeah, no, that's actually really a, a good thing that I've, it was kind of a hack that I started doing and to be honest, it gives your rice so much more flavor. [00:23:00] And I personally like Baati rice. It's just, uh, it's great and it also is like one of the better rice to have. And do you have any suggestions or like any brands that you like for bone broth?

  Brooke: , Kettle and Fire, in my opinion, is the standard. I know that it's pretty pricey though, and I say it's the standard and I don't even have it very often, , because I go through so much bone broth, so I would just focus on finding an organic bone broth. , I get one from Walmart. I think the brand is.

  Pacific or Pacifica or something along those lines. It's a green carton, , and it's just organic bone broth on it. So that's a super great option. And then,

  Michelle: fed? If it's beef. do you usually do beef and chicken or one or the other

  Brooke: , It depends on the recipe. So most of the time it's chicken just because it's a little bit more subtle. , So it doesn't have a [00:24:00] strong of a flavor and you can kind of mix it with whatever, but if I'm doing like a beef stew or something that's like primarily made with beef and I need some sort of broth, then I'll do beef bone broth.

  , I also love the powdered bone broth from just ingredients. You can buy the basil one or the lemon herb one, and so you can just do a scoop and add it to water or add it to your soup or. Whatever you're using. , And it actually makes it really palatable to drink as well. So that's one of my favorite things for postpartum is I'll warm up my water in the microwave and then I'll add a scoop of the lemon herb bone broth and it actually like, tastes good.

  So now I'm actually drinking the bone broth.

  Michelle: Yeah. And also pregnancy or even, , fertility. So it's amazing 'cause a lot of these things are beneficial for everybody.

  Brooke: Yeah. Anytime.

  Michelle: Awesome. So that sounds great. So if people are interested in [00:25:00] learning more or, , do get to that place where they're conceiving and they wanna learn more about, . You know, pregnancy, nutrition, and information on postpartum possibly.

  Or if they have, you know, , gone through pregnancy and are trying again, how can they reach you and find out more about what you offer?

  Brooke: You can find me on Instagram at the well nourished mama underscore. , I also have a podcast, the Well Nourished Mama Podcast, and my website is the same. Well nourished mama.com. . And then if you're looking for very specific support to healing your body and really building those foundations, I recommend my.

  Cookbook called The New Mama. It's marketed as a postpartum recovery cookbook, but it's primarily a healing protocol. , It's anti-inflammatory in nature, and it's really rich in minerals and amino acids. So if you're still feeling a little bit [00:26:00] off or you just really wanna lay that groundwork to support your body through this next phase of trying to conceive, then you can start at the very beginning of My New Mama cookbook and watch your body flourish as you go throughout the cookbook.

  It's kind of an a meal plan format, , and it'll really kind of help reset your body and get you to a place where you're feeling a lot better.

  Michelle: And listen, this works. For people who have never conceived. I, I just really wanna stress that. 'cause we have like such, , we kind of like labeled different parts as separate, but it's, it's all the same. Like you're really nourishing your body and that nourishing will help with conception regardless if it, it's the first time or the second time or the third time.

  So yeah, I'd like to stress that.

  Brooke: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, like I said, it's marketed as a postpartum recovery cookbook, but my mother-in-law uses it and she's in her fifties. , My husband loves all the [00:27:00] recipes and I use it all the time to just support my body at a foundational level.

  Michelle: Perfect. , So Brooke, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I'm really happy because I feel like, , it is really, , giving answers to a community that is often, I always say it's kind of like the, the middle child, you know, the secondary and fertility , it's not given as much attention as like.

  Primary infertility, and a lot of people actually going through that are going through that after having a kid and realizing maybe their body's more depleted. So I think this is such an important topic and conversation. So thank you so much for coming on today, Brooke. Right.

  Brooke: welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm wishing you the best .

Ep 351 Spirit Baby Messages and Fertility Healing with Julie Ryan

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, psychic, medium, and medical intuitive Julie Ryan (@askjulieryan) returns to share her extraordinary “buffet of psychicness.” Julie has a rare ability to scan the body, facilitate energetic healings, and connect with spirits, including those of future children.

You’ll hear a live fertility reading for one of my clients, where Julie uncovers energetic insights, identifies physical and emotional blocks, and even connects with two spirit babies waiting to join the family. We explore the body’s innate ability to heal, the role of mindset and nervous system regulation in fertility, and how to navigate the often overwhelming medical side of the journey.

Julie also teaches her simple yet powerful “Two-Minute Rule” for reducing stress instantly, shares her process for regenerating energetic blueprints, and reminds us that healing is always possible. Whether you’re seeking answers, hope, or a deeper spiritual connection on your fertility path, this conversation offers both comfort and empowerment.

Key Takeaways: 

• The body has an innate ability to heal itself, healers and practitioners facilitate the process, but true healing comes from within.

• Spirit babies can attach to a mother’s energy field long before conception, offering reassurance and hope on the fertility journey.

• Shifting out of fear and stress is crucial, as the body enters creation mode—not survival mode, when it feels safe and calm.

• The “Two-Minute Rule” is a simple tool to quickly identify irrational fears and keep stress and inflammation levels low.

• Energetic healing can address both physical and emotional blocks, supporting reproductive health alongside conventional care.
  

If you’re curious about how to quiet your mind and gently support your body with mindset tools, my Rooted Membership is designed for you. It’s a space where I share hypnosis audios, meditations, and mindset practices to bring calm to your fertility journey. You can even try it free for 7 days and see how it feels. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/rooted-fertility-mindset-membership 

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  EP 351 intro

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 51 of the Wholesome Fertility podcast. My guest today is Julie Ryan. Julie is a psychic, medium and medical intuitive that can sense what medical conditions and illnesses a person has, and with that can facilitate energetic healings. She can communicate with spirits both alive and past.

  Michelle: And Julie is a buffet of Psychicness. She's been on the podcast before. She can scan animals, access people's past lives, and her book Angelic Attendance. What really happens as we transition from this life into the next describes a series of events that involves angels, multitudes of deceased family and friends, and spirits of deceased pets, and countless serendipitous and miraculous moments.

  Michelle: Each week, Julie scans colors on her. Ask Julie Ryan Show, which is heard in over a hundred countries throughout the world. Julie is a businesswoman and inventor, [00:01:00] author, podcaster, and a serial entrepreneur. Her surgical device inventions are sold globally and she has founded nine companies in five different industries.

  Michelle: Julie has been on this podcast numerous times, and I'm not sure if you listened to this or not, but it was actually one of the most popular podcasts on our show, and it was when she read two of my clients, and today she's going to be doing the same one of my clients. It's currently on her fertility journey.

  Michelle: So this is a very exciting episode. And I also wanna mention this disclaimer that this is for entertainment purposes only and this should not be used as medical advice. If you need any kind of medical advice, please speak to your doctor. So now that we got that out of the way, please enjoy the show.

  Michelle: [00:02:00] So welcome back Julie to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you back. Oh, I'm delighted to be with you. Any 

  Julie: place, 

  Michelle: anytime. My girl. Yes. So today we're gonna do fertility breedings with one of my clients, and Julie is on. We've done this before, years ago, and it was a very cool episode. So I'd love for you to maybe first share a little bit about you 'cause it's been a while.

  Michelle: Just your background and what you do in your process would love. Okay. 

  Julie: Yeah. Well, I'm a businesswoman and an inventor of surgical devices sold throughout the world, who learned how to do woo woo, and I'm a buffet of Psychicness. I love it. What that means [00:03:00] is I'm not one of those psychics that had dead people chasing her since childhood.

  Julie: Or if I did, I didn't know it, let alone what I would've done with that information. And and I, what I learned, Michelle, and what you learned, you've learned too. 'cause you've been in my class. Yes. You're one of my, one of my graduates. I'm so proud of you. Is once you connect with spirit, you can do it all.

  Julie: I, I have no idea why it's segmented. So I'm like a human. MRII connect into people anywhere, anywhere, even in a galaxy far, far away. 

  Michelle: Well, I know that you've definitely um, tuned in like an MRI for me. Saying with my fibroids. 'cause I did do an MRI and then Julie had mentioned exactly what I had where very, very specifically.

  Michelle: So sorry to interject, but Yeah. Yeah. 

  Julie: And and something will be identified and then there'll be a healing and then something else will be identified, there'll be a healing and, and so it's really fun. [00:04:00] Be able to help people heal themselves. 'cause you know, nobody heals anybody else. No medical provider.

  Julie: No, no shaman, no healer, no doctor. You go to the emergency room with a big cut on your leg and the doctor's gonna stitch it up. The doctor doesn't make your skin grow back. You make your own skin grow. That's right. So the work that you do, the work that I do, the work that all medical providers and healers of any sort do is we help the person heal themselves.

  Julie: Mm-hmm. and it's all, it's all part of the healing equation. But what I've found is that once we connect with spirit, we can talk to spirit. We talk to your dead grandma, we can talk to your dead cat, scan your current cat. We can scan bodies with their permission. Of course. Do past life stuff, communicate with any, any spirit, whether we knew him or not is irrelevant.

  Julie: And so it's all, all what I call my buffet of psychicness. And it's, it's just [00:05:00] so much fun and so rewarding and, and a joy to be able to meet people from all over the world and help. And what teeny winy, winy little, little piece of their journey help them on their journey. Yeah, no doubt. 

  Michelle: And I love that you say the body heals itself.

  Michelle: 'cause it really is connecting to that divine intelligence that we all have. Right. It's really us facilitating and creating an environment where the body's able to do its job. 

  Julie: Exactly. 

  Michelle: And, and 

  Julie: everything's healable. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: Absolutely. Everything is healable. Sometimes the healing is death. But in most instances, unless somebody's at the end of their life and they're really, really sick and they've decided that they're ready to go back to heaven, everything's healable.

  Julie: I get to see miraculous things all the time, and I know you do too in your practice when others have said, oh, you're not gonna be able to, you're not gonna be able to heal that. I'm like, yeah, you can. I had [00:06:00] a client this morning and I was a LS. And she said, the doctors are just telling me to get my affairs in order.

  Julie: And I said, yeah, well yeah, do that. But everything's healable. I've seen amazing healings happen regardless of what's going on. So 

  Michelle: Well, I love that message and I think that ladies that are on today need to hear that because it is, it is a really difficult journey and having lots of diagnosis and. You know, being given certain labels and told, and again, it's not in place of diagnosis.

  Michelle: If people listening to this go see your doctors. And this is not to say not to go to the doctors, but it is really important to understand that the body is incredible. And so I would love to start with Joha and to, you know, see where this goes. Yeah. Hi, Joha. Hi, Julie. How are you? 

  Julie: I'm wonderful. Where are you located?

  Julie: I [00:07:00] am in Miami. You're in Miami. Okay. Terrific. And how may I help you? 

  Michelle: Well, I've been trying to get pregnant for a while. I's been a long journey. Okay. About two and a half years. I met the right person. I never thought about having kids. You know, it was in the back of my mind, but I never pay attention to it until I met this person, until I lost my parents.

  Michelle: And I say, you know what, it's time to have my family. And obviously I was concentrating in my job, my career. And as women, you know, sometimes we don't have enough education and I didn't preserve my fertility when I was 35 or 32. But now I'm 40. Mm-hmm. And when I was 39 or 38, I started looking into IVF because I didn't, you know, I, I couldn't get pregnant naturally, so I said, you know what?

  Michelle: I, [00:08:00] I'm gonna go, my doctor at the time told me you have endometriosis, you should consider banking X. And then I didn't pay attention. I went through a, went through a surgery on endo, on my right, ov. And then after that, you know, I met this person, my future husband, and then we've been trying for a long time.

  Michelle: I've done already three rounds of IVFI completed a third one and I miscarriage them. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's so painful and I've been looking for help everywhere. At the beginning it was in the matri. Doctors didn't see much of an issue. Then we found out other things, and then I went to an immunologist.

  Michelle: I did a full treatment and the embryo didn't attach with that treatment. So obviously it wasn't the proper treatment for me. And then I decided it was one embryo [00:09:00] left. And so I told my husband, you know what? I don't have enough, enough embryos and you know, I'm panicking. I need to, I need, I need to go to a new doctor, change clinics.

  Michelle: And I did, and nothing happened. It was worse. So I didn't get one embryo. Not even one embryo. I spent $30,000 and you know, the results were devastating. So I only have one embryo left from my previous IVFs and it. That's my only hope right now. 

  Julie: And are you thinking about getting that one implanted here sometime soon?

  Julie: Yeah, that's the plan. Okay. All right. And so in the meantime, what are you doing? 

  Michelle: I, in the meantime? No, I mean I actually went to the doctor and he said. Why don't we transfer this last embryo? Like what if this attaches, you don't have to think about it anymore, but we had, we have to do it right away so you don't lose [00:10:00] more time.

  Michelle: So I'm actually preparing for that embryo at the moment. 

  Julie: Okay. And then are you doing anything joha to help your body be ready for it? Like are you paying attention to your overall 

  Michelle: health? Yeah. I, I'm actually very healthy. I think I, you know, I go to Michelle's acupuncture every week. I eat very healthy.

  Michelle: I don't drink, I don't smoke. I sleep, I exercise. I don't know what else I should do. Okay. 

  Julie: All right. And your doctors are saying all your blood work's good and all of that, 

  Michelle: everything is good. Except for when I went to the immunology, they run like 20 vials of blood and they found a couple of things.

  Michelle: I have the mutation, M-D-H-F-R, which a lot of women have, but I have it. I also, they also discovered the PAI 100 or PAI [00:11:00] something which is also. Or contributing to blood clotting. And obviously, you know, endometriosis, but okay, so you still have the endo. I still have endo. Yes. But I, I, you know, with all this, I went to an endo specialist, a surgeon in New York, and he told me something that nobody had told me before and he is adenomyosis.

  Michelle: So he said, your problem is yes, you have endo, but your de, your degree of en endo is not, so, is not on stage four. You have probably stage two, maybe getting to stage three, but it's not big of a deal because you already got pregnant. Your issues are on my. 

  Julie: And for those of who are listening that, dunno what that is.

  Julie: Can you tell everybody what 

  Michelle: that is? It's like causing of endometriosis is what I understand. But it's in the uterus. I, I, I'm not a doctor obviously, but it is, it creates inflammation in your uterus and it, it doesn't allow the, [00:12:00] the embryo to develop properly. There type of types of end of adenomyosis.

  Michelle: Mind seems to be diffused, which is more difficult to treat because it's, you know, diffused. It's not in one place. So the treatment is suppression right now, and it's like they put you on menopause and that's what I'm going through right now. Oh geez. With Lupron. And then, so I have to be in two months on menopause, pretty much with heat and sleepless nights and all that.

  Michelle: It seems to work, but I don't know, you know, like at this point I've tried it all. Yeah, I bet you're exhausted. I am. Heard in your voice. I'm getting exhausted. I'm, I'm getting like, oh my God. What, what else? 

  Julie: Yeah. Okay. All right, well, let me get you on my radar and let's see what's going on. Okay. How this works is I'm gonna raise my vibrational level to level of spirit [00:13:00] joha.

  Julie: Mm-hmm. And I'm like a human MRI. So I'm gonna watch a laser beam come from my body and it's gonna hook into yours. I'm in Birmingham, Alabama is kind of hook into you down in Miami. And then I'm gonna have a hologram of you in my mind's eye. And it's gonna be as if I'm looking at an X-ray or a CT scan or an MRI, and I'm gonna envision shooting energy from your feet up through the top of your head and we'll see what comes up.

  Julie: My analogies oftentimes are hilarious. So prepare yourself. Michelle's lapping already. She knows, okay, I may tell you your elbow looks like whipped cream or something crazy like that, but it's just how spirit sends the visuals to me so we can have a human perspective for the healing that's happening.

  Julie: And I am gonna describe it in detail, what I'm seeing in my mind's eye, it's a good thing we're all girls 'cause we can multitask. [00:14:00] So I'm gonna be describing to you what I see. I'm gonna be watching the healing, I'm gonna be getting information downloaded into my head. I call that to my downloads joha. And and so I'm gonna be describing everything to you.

  Julie: I want you to picture it. Because if you can envision what I'm describing, it's gonna help integrate the healing into your body. Okay? 'cause the body's always gonna follow what the brain tells it, even if the brain doesn't believe it to be true. Think of watching a sad movie. You know? It's pre pretend.

  Julie: Let's say you're watching a sad animated movie like Frozen two or something in a sad part, and you're thinking. Why am I crying? This is pretend It's, it's like it's even animated, but the body's gonna follow what the brain tells it, so the healing will integrate into your body. That can happen instantly.

  Julie: It can take days, weeks, months, meaning complimentary care like what you're going through, [00:15:00] but certainly it's always our spirit's prerogative to utilize a healing in a way that best. Facilitates whatever it is we're exploring in this lifetime. And like Michelle and I were talking about earlier, nobody ever heals anybody else, ever.

  Julie: We help others heal themselves. So are you ready? Are you game? I am ready. I am. Okay girl. Here comes my laser beam from Sweet Home, Alabama, heading down to Uua Miami. Alright. Caught you sending. Energy from your feet up through the top of your head. You have two baby spirits attached to your energy field.

  Julie: Honey, they look like little orbs. They're above your right shoulder and they're not a multiple birth. They're two separate. Little spirits. The baby's energy attaches to the mom's energy field before it's conceived, sometimes years in advance. And it's not just birth babies, it can [00:16:00] be adopted babies as well.

  Julie: And so it's really sweet to see that. That you've got two babies' energies there. It doesn't mean they're both gonna incarnate, but it means that they're attached to your energy field. So that's a really good sign. Wow. That that's happening. So, all right, shooting energy again from your feet up through the tub of your head.

  Julie: All right. Of course it went to your uterus. And I'm going in there and it, and I, I can see that those hormones that they have you on the menopause hormones are working because the endo's starting to die off. It looks, it looks kind of blackish and they're like dark brown black. So what I'm watching is I'm watching a vortex that's spinning inside your uterus and it's kind of like, imagine.

  Julie: You got a funnel cloud from a tornado. So here comes the healing and here comes the, you know, the interesting analogies. Mm-hmm. To give us a frame of reference. [00:17:00] And what I'm watching happen is I'm watching it stir up the energy in your uterus so we can get all of that endo out of there. And it's just dying.

  Julie: The endo's dying in there. So that's good. That's a good thing that I'm seeing. Usually when I see endo, it looks like endometriosis. It looks like strands of almost that's tissue, but, but almost strands that remind me of a type of scar tissue almost. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: And that can resemble joha. Think of a basketball net.

  Michelle: Okay. You know, it's 

  Julie: just, it's that kind of fibrous, like the, the nylon ones, not the cotton ones. The nylon. Basketball nets. So what I'm watching is I'm watching this vortex. I I, I've never seen a vortex used for this before, but I'm not sure I've had a client that [00:18:00] was on hormones to, to make the endometriosis die off.

  Julie: Normally what I see happen is I'll see a, like a laser or a cautery, go in and cauterize all of it and then scrape it out. So this is interesting. I'm an inventor, as I mentioned, of surgical devices sold throughout the world. So it's so much fun for me to get to see these healings and Michelle knows a lot of times I'll say, oh cool, I haven't seen this before.

  Julie: So, oh, cool, Joe. Hi. I haven't seen this before, but it's working really well. Okay, so imagine when a funnel cloud comes through a neighborhood. I mean it, you know, it can be like a big weed whacker. It just gets rid of everything in its path. So that's still happening. And the interesting thing about this is all of the, the endo that's being cleared out is going into the top of the vortex and disappearing.

  Julie: So it's like it's spinning up this [00:19:00] energy to get rid of the endo, and then it's disposing of it going down into the center of the vortex. I haven't seen that before either. It's like a 

  Michelle: black hole. 

  Julie: Like a black hole and black holes represent source to me. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Represent 

  Julie: God, the universe, you know, whatever you want.

  Julie: I call it God good Catholic girl, zero field, 

  Michelle: quantum 

  Julie: field. Yeah, exactly. Call it whatever you want. So watching that happen. All right, I'm gonna let that spin for a minute. I'm gonna go back up. I'm gonna look at your ovaries, I'm gonna look at your your tubes and everything. Okay. So we're gonna just regenerate your ovaries.

  Julie: How about that? They'll have all new eggs in 'em. Oh my God. I wouldn't know that. It's all your, it's all your DNA and everything. I have two clients that we did this. We generated new ovaries and they both got pregnant after we regenerated their ovaries. So imagine we're gonna go to the leftover first.

  Julie: Imagine that the plumbing's getting clamped off. [00:20:00] It's coming in into the ovaries. And imagine that there's a mold. Think of a plastic mold, a jello mold, you know, a bunt cake, mold, any kind of mold. And it looks like your left ovary. And imagine that there's stem cell energy getting put into that mold. It's a light.

  Julie: Amber color gel has sparkles in it 'cause it's whoa, whoa. Gotta have sparkles. And it reminds me of Dippity do hair gel, which was a thing when I was a kid. They still sell it on Amazon. You can find it just in case you wanna get some Michelle. And so that's filling up this mold and there's a vortex spinning above it.

  Julie: This stem cell energy is the absolute coolest stuff ever, ever joha, because it'll regenerate any body part we need. I've watched it regenerate whole organs before that show up on subsequent scans. Sometimes the doctors will call me and say, what the heck are you doing and how does this stuff work? [00:21:00] I was like, yeah, well, stem cell energy.

  Julie: So we've got that going. All right. Taken out the, the ovary that's. Been used for a lot of, a lot of years. It's been in there. New one's getting put in place, plumbing's getting stitched up, clamp removed. Okay, that one's in place. Let's do their right One left one's worse than their right eggs. By the way, inside the ovaries look like blonde caviar to me, and you have tons of 'em, and they're all viable now.

  Julie: So let's do the new ovary on the right. Same thing. A mold stem cell energies is going in there. Vortex regenerating that ovary, current ovary, plumbing getting clamped. That ovary is getting removed. New one getting put in, getting stitched into place. All right, clamp released. All right, that's in place. Now imagine that we're gonna clean out both fallopian tubes, so kind of like a double, you know, you'll see those, [00:22:00] those old Western movies, they'll have a.

  Julie: A pistol in each hand. You know, when they're walking down the middle of the, of the dirt road town. So we're, we've got two pistols going. Imagine they look like corkscrews, they're in both of your fallopian tubes and they're cleaning out your fallopian tubes. It's kind of like, I like to say we're Roto-Rooter them.

  Julie: And for people outside of America, that's just a plumbing company that'll come and unclog your drains. So we're Roto-Rooter. With corkscrews in there and irrigation fluid going in there to clean that out. All right. Those little finger things that, yes, they remind me of seaweed at the bottom of the ocean and they just kind of float around in the water and those.

  Julie: Those little finger things that look like seaweed to me. They grab the egg when you ovulate. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: And bring it into the fallopian tube. So I'm adding stem cell energy on both sides to that to make them longer. Mm. [00:23:00] As we age, as we get older, they get shorter. So we want you to have those little seaweed little finger things of a 15-year-old that can go out and grab that egg.

  Julie: Once you ovulate, you're gonna ovulate from the left side next. I can see it. I've seen this actually in surgery before. When a woman's getting ready to ovulate, there's this red spot. It looks like an underground zit. You ever had a pimple when you were a kid that it doesn't have a head on it yet, but it's red and it's hurts like crazy, and it hasn't erupted yet.

  Julie: That's what it looks like on an ovary when an egg's getting ready to pop out. And so you're gonna ovulate on the left side next. All right. Going back in looking at your uterus now. All right. That's all cleaned out. You know, all that endo is cleaned out. You got some of it outside of your uterus too.

  Julie: We're gonna take care of that in a minute [00:24:00] that I can see. So what I'm watching happen is I'm watching the lining of your uterus, come back and get all fluffy to get ready to receive an egg. So we've got that going. Okay. So the endo outside of your, your uterus just looks like strands of fibrous tissue.

  Julie: So I'm watching it get cut, get cut out with some scissors, and the scissors are electrified joha, so they're cutting and cauterizing at the same time. 

  Michelle: Hmm, 

  Julie: that makes sense. So we've got that going on. All right, let's do a lymph cleanse. Imagine there's a big oval tube that's a vertical oval. It's inside your body, but it's on the front side of your body.

  Julie: All your lymph fluid is inside of it. There's a lymph fluid, looks like an amber color. It's kind of [00:25:00] blobby. Think of the fluid inside a lava lamp. Okay? It's kind of blobby, and so it's spinning. There's a hole that's open on the bottom of each of your feet, and the toxins are coming out the bottom of your feet.

  Julie: So we're basically doing a reverse osmosis purification of your lymph fluid, like what they do with purified drinking water. You know, they save the liquid, but they get the toxins out. Same kind of concept. Now imagine there is a big metal dome. Think of a dome that goes on a plate of room service food when it's delivered to your hotel room.

  Julie: And it's lifted off of your body. As it does that, it pulls out all of the lymph nodes that have sequestered toxins. Those look like look like little D three vitamin capsules, and when they've sequestered toxins, they can look brown or black inside. So those have been removed. Now you're being sprinkled with stem cell energy again.[00:26:00] 

  Julie: Fortes back above your head, beneath your feet on either side, front and behind, all spinning concurrently, and they're all surrounding your body. There's always a vortex in place that transforms this stem cell energy into whatever body part we need. In this case, it's new lymph nodes. So we've got that going on.

  Julie: You're gonna be like the bionic babe by the time we're done with you here today, girl 

  Michelle: and I, I'm also picturing everything that you're saying 'cause I know her. 

  Julie: Yeah, yeah. You know, you know Jo High and you know me. Yes. Yeah. So imagine heavy metal detox, too big U-shaped magnets on either side of you.

  Julie: They're joined in the middle joha and they're going up and down your body and they're pulling out metallic particulate. They look like little specks of sparkly and dull glitter. They can look like a little strand of steel wool from a scrubbing pad used inside a, you [00:27:00] know, kitchen, like to scrub pots and pans, you old fashioned steel wool scrubbing pads.

  Julie: So those are being removed. Those magnets go up and down your body. And then they turn a cord of return and go up and down your body and turn a cord of return till they make a full rotation and then they pop off, which they just did. So now let's do a DNA healing. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: And I just wanna see you have, you have several strands of DNA that have come out of an X chromosome.

  Julie: DNA of course, is the recipe that tells the cells how to behave. Comprised of four nucleic acids represented by four letters. A TCG one strand can have a hundred thousand letters on it can have up to a billion letters on it. I'm watching those letters get rearranged and they are taking your DNA recipe back to the normal recipe.

  Julie: They come out at these strands of DNA look, like a piece of paper you'd see [00:28:00] inside a fortune cookie with fortune written on it. And so once it's reconfigured, it snaps back in for the mRNA from the shots. Those are just being neutralized. We don't want you in a heightened immune response. Mm-hmm. And that's what that does.

  Julie: So those are just being, those letters are just being wiped off, so you don't have that. All right. All right. Let me make one last pass through you. Anything else you want me to check while I have you on my radar? What about breathing? Breathing. Are you having trouble breathing? I am. Okay. Like an, an allergic thing?

  Julie: Or It might be allergic and it's something new, or, it's something 

  Michelle: that's been going on for a while. It's been going on for a while, but, you know, I, I treat it, you know, with Celine drops and I don't pay more attention, more much attention to it, but now it's summer here and it's like difficult for me to breathe.

  Michelle: So is [00:29:00] it something that I can do? 

  Julie: I get it's mold exposure. Do you have a mold issue in your home? No. I don't know. Have you had any water leaks that you know of? We have our 

  Michelle: conditioning 

  Julie: always here. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not gonna be it. But have you had any water leaks in your home that you know of?

  Michelle: Not that I know. 

  Julie: Or your office perhaps. All right. Getting that removed. So, I would check into that. Okay. And see if you have any kind of a mold issue in your home. Have you seen any, like, in your bathroom, any mold in your bathroom or, or in any other areas of your house? Or do you have any walls where the pain is starting to bubble or it's got, it's, it doesn't look right and it's got cracks in it, or something like that?

  Michelle: Not in this apartment, but back in the days when I [00:30:00] used to live in my country, it was, it was like that. 

  Julie: Yeah. Yeah. Before I'm clearing the mold out of your body right now that I'm seeing and, and it, it looks like it's current mold joha me because when I see the mold get cleared, when it's current mold, it leaves kind of an oily residue.

  Julie: Hmm. Think about slathering olive oil on a, on an onion before you put it on the grill and you set it on the countertop and then you lift it up. It leaves like an oily spot, you know, on the countertop. That's kind of what this looks like. So there's this white powdery substance that I see. Think of baby powder.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: I'm, I'm watching that. Get put on that oily, so you've got some mold exposure somewhere. You probably wanna check into that 'cause that's gonna cause inflammation too. Right. Okay. Especially with the M-T-H-F-R, you know, that's gonna make you [00:31:00] super susceptible to any kind of toxins. Oxon Okay, so, which is a, which is a superpower frankly.

  Julie: You know, when you walk into a room that has a mold issue, you're gonna get a reaction. Yeah, I do too. And nobody needs to be in those rooms, but my husband's oblivious. He doesn't have any reaction. I'll say, great, honey, I'll meet you in the car. I'm not staying in here. So it's like a superpower to be able to detect it.

  Julie: Even though it may not feel like it at times. Yeah, I, I, there there's nothing that I'm seeing. I mean, we've just done a big old healing on you. I, I really believe you're gonna have one, maybe two babies. 

  Michelle: Oh, wow. Thank you for that. So I have a question regarding my, a lot of well, we, well, when trying to identify what to do, I've been visiting endo surgeons.

  Michelle: I don't wanna be negative, but I just wanna know if you see surgery happening on me or not. I'm getting a 

  Julie: [00:32:00] no at this moment in time on that. 

  Michelle: Okay. 

  Julie: I'm getting a No. Your poor body though, with all these hormones, goodness. You know, you're on the Let's get pregnant hormones, and then they put you on the menopause hormones.

  Julie: Your body's going, whoa, wow. What is going on here? 

  Michelle: Yeah, my poor husband is so. 

  Julie: Yeah. So, the other thing that's coming in from spirit joha is to, to easier said than done. I understand, but I know you feel like a big lab rat at this point where you've had so many tests and so many. Doctors diagnoses and I'm so glad you're with Michelle 'cause she's a goddess with this stuff.

  Julie: She does amazing work. Try and try and back off from some of it in the short run and give yourself a little bit of a break because you've been [00:33:00] through so much. That I'm, I'm hearing, you know, you're, you're just so preoccupied with what's this test result? What's this doctor gonna say? What's this person gonna say?

  Julie: What do I need to do next? How can I do this? Into focus on picturing yourself with your baby a hundred percent instead of all of the medical stuff. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: You know, really focus on that when you have. Yourself because when you're stressed out about all the medical tests and what am I gonna do next and who do I need to talk to next?

  Julie: And you know, what's the next test gonna be? And do we, you know, do we need to go do the wild thing right now at this moment because I'm ovulating and you know, good heavens, that's just so much stress. It is. Yeah. So just if you can unplug and every time you feel that picture yourself with your baby.

  Julie: Rocking your baby, singing to your baby, hugging [00:34:00] your baby, feeding your baby, and, and how joyful it feels. 

  Michelle: Hmm. 

  Julie: I mean, just talking about it, it feels totally different, doesn't it? 

  Michelle: It is. It, it's amazing to think about it. It's just the fear, you know, that we women going through infertility field. Yep. But yes, you're right.

  Julie: Yeah. 

  Michelle: I'm so tired of these doctors, you 

  Julie: know? I bet so sick of it. I can only imagine. Michelle, can I teach her the two minute rule? Yes. Okay. Honey, you're gonna love this. Joha, you ready? Yeah. When we have a thought that comes into our head, it doesn't have a meaning until we give it a meaning. All thoughts are neutral.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: So when we have a thought that comes into our head that feels bad, it's always based in fear. Yeah, everything that feels bad. Anger, jealousy, boredom, grief, actual fear. It's all based in fear. Now, the key is there's two [00:35:00] different kinds of fear. There's real fear, which is called rational fear.

  Julie: Something's gonna harm you or kill you. Change the conditions before it does. Get outta the road before the truck runs you over. That's a rational fear. That's a real fear. And then we have irrational fear, which is 99.9% of the thoughts we think that feel bad. And they're all fake news. They're fake. Oh, I'm running late for this appointment.

  Julie: Oh, what if I never get pregnant? What if, you know, what if the cake I'm baking doesn't turn out right and I won't have a cake to take to the birthday party? I mean, really? Is that gonna kill you? No. Is it gonna harm you? No. But it feels like it is. And what happens is we go into fight or flight, autonomic nervous system responds.

  Julie: We don't, our bodies just immediately go there when we're in fear, whether it's a real fear or fake fear. So here's how you tell the difference. Instead of a fight or flight, you just ask yourself, is this gonna kill me in the [00:36:00] next two minutes? If my cake is burned and I can't take it to the party, is that gonna kill me in the next two minutes, it's a yes or no answer in this game is there's no, it's not.

  Julie: Even if it feels awful. Well, it feels awful 'cause you're in fight or flight. Your cortisol levels have gone up. Your stress levels, your norepinephrine levels, right? The blood drains from your brain goes to your extremities in your heart, so you can run away from whatever it is you're fearing. And we lose clarity.

  Julie: So back to the, if I don't get pregnant and we, we use our imagination to think up all this stuff and we're making it up, right? If I don't get pregnant, is that gonna kill me in the next two minutes, it's yes or no answer. What's the answer? 

  Michelle: No. 

  Julie: No. So you know, it's an irrational fear when you do that. You stay out of fight or flight.[00:37:00] 

  Julie: Which is gonna help you think clearly, number one, but more importantly for you, it's gonna keep you out of an inflammation state because when we're inflamed, our cortisol levels are high, right? It's this cascade and the body's going, I'm not getting pregnant, I'm inflamed. I gotta figure out what's going on and get the inflammation down before I can get pregnant.

  Julie: Right? Because inflammation is the root cause of all illness and disease. A hundred percent. So two minute rule, girl, you can use it in any situation. You can use it unlimited times a day. It's free and it's convenient. It works anywhere your brain is, and your brain's usually with you wherever you are.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: So any situation, it's gonna help you stay out of fight or flight. It's gonna help you keep your inflammation levels. Low and a lot of the [00:38:00] time you're gonna laugh. I laugh at myself. I, I, it is just a habit for me and I'll say, oh God, Ryan, quit being such a drama queen. Right. And then it's, you're gonna be amazed it how well it works.

  Julie: So you use that, you can use it 5 million times in a day on 5 million different situations. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. That's great. 

  Julie: Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Julie. 

  Michelle: Bye. 

  Julie: I'm looking forward to seeing those baby pictures. Michelle will send them to me. Yes, 

  Michelle: I will. And actually I do have I don't know if you remember this is years ago, but you did read somebody that was on the podcast and you had said the same thing and you, you saw a picture of her with orbs.

  Michelle: And she was going through a lot of inflammation. She had a lot of autoimmune conditions. And you said, oh, be careful. 'cause once that floodgate is open, you're gonna have a back to back. And guess what she did? [00:39:00] She did. She had two back to back after that. And then her doctors were saying, oh, you need all kinds of medications for your autoimmune condition.

  Michelle: She went to another guy and he said, much a do for nothing. That's what he said. You're in remission. Go home. You're fine. Isn't that crazy? So that's, that's the whole thing with, you were talking about opinions. That was one doctor's opinions though, you need to go on crazy medication. She went and got another opinion and he looked and checked and it was fine.

  Michelle: So. 

  Julie: Well, and that's when people come to you and come to me because they've seen multiple practitioners and gotten multiple diagnoses and multiple treatment plans, and they still have the same symptoms. Mm-hmm. They go, what the heck? Yeah. What's going on? Yeah. And and so it's just, we're part of the healing equation.

  Julie: Mm-hmm. And, and I think the bottom line is pay attention to how. It feels in your body when a [00:40:00] practitioner says something to you, does it resonate with you? Does it feel like, okay, yeah, that makes sense, and here's the treatment program. Or is it something that feels totally off and pay attention to that?

  Julie: Because no practitioner's gonna give you a hundred percent guarantee if you follow this program. You know, you're gonna be healed or you're gonna have a baby, or you're gonna do whatever. Nobody can make that kind of a guarantee, simply because it's all based on what our spirit wants to explore and experience in this lifetime.

  Julie: And so future events are fluid. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: And, and we can give somebody what we're getting at this moment in time, but it may be different next week, next month, next year. And it's all what their spirit wants to explore and experience in this life, which to some people maybe sounds like a cop [00:41:00] out, but it's not.

  Julie: No doctor's gonna give you a guarantee. Mm-hmm. That the surgery's gonna be a hundred percent successful or this treatment plan's gonna be a hundred percent successful. But we've just been trained to believe what we're told, which I think it always makes sense to get multiple opinions if you can. 

  Michelle: Yeah, I agree with that.

  Michelle: Totally. 

  Julie: And then how many clients do you have that had infertility issues for many years, and then all of a sudden, lo and behold, you know mm-hmm. They got pregnant. Yeah. One of my, one of my girlfriends, her parents were older when they got married, and they were married for 19 years before. Her mom got pregnant with her and it was like the second coming of Christ, you know?

  Julie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just like, oh my God. We never thought that we were ever gonna gonna have a baby, let alone after 19 years. Yeah. That's a 

  Michelle: long time. And then I, 

  Julie: I met a woman last week whose [00:42:00] parents were in their, like their late forties when they got pregnant with her, and she's an only child and, you know, a total surprise.

  Julie: Yeah. So. And I just recently had, 

  Michelle: Actually a woman, she got pregnant. This was like after one failed IVF retrieval and then multiple other tries, I mean, for years. And then and then she was gonna do another retrieval and she didn't get her period. She was pregnant and she also got a lot of signs from her spirit, baby, like insane signs.

  Michelle: And I always find this like when they ask for signs, they get it. Yeah. 

  Julie: Well, and the other thing about, the good thing about IVF too, whether it works or not, is that intention is out there. 

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: You wanna be a mom. Yeah. You wanna be a parent. So that intention is out there and whether it works on that cycle or not, it's still helpful for those that are going down [00:43:00] that route.

  Julie: If they can stay out of what we were talking about earlier, the black hole of overanalyzing, the daylights out of everything. Yeah. Because that just causes stress. It does. And the body doesn't wanna get pregnant when it's stressed because it's going, whoa, no, I gotta figure out how to get this stress outta here first.

  Julie: Yeah, no, it just exacerbates it. Have I know you've found the same thing. 

  Michelle: Yeah, I definitely I'm finding a lot, I'm just doing a lot of research too on like the nervous system and it's just crazy. Like, it, it is so mind boggling, like just. Think about it as a survival versus creative state. And you're not gonna be thinking creativity when you're in survival.

  Michelle: Right. And you're, what's your body's creativity? It's fertility. 

  Julie: Right? Yeah. Good point. 

  Michelle: So 

  Julie: talk to us about your book. Okay, well, we've got, there's a free Angelica attendance. What really happens as we transition from [00:44:00] this life into the next, and it's what happens as we're. Dying. Mm-hmm. There's lots of information out there about what happens.

  Julie: In the afterlife, near death experiences, things like that. But here are drawings about how we're surrounded by angels and the spirits of deceased loved ones and pets. And by the way, baby spirits mm-hmm. Miscarried babies, spirits show up mm-hmm. In that configuration too. So when I talk to moms who've miscarried and they say, oh, you know, I just.

  Julie: Feels so awful that I've lost his baby. And I go, well, let's talk to the baby. And we do. Mm-hmm. All the time. Yeah. And that baby's there. Yeah. Around them their whole life. And even when they're dying. I have to tell you a funny story about that real fast and then I'll go back to the book. One of my friends is in her early nineties.

  Julie: She's 93, and when her [00:45:00] husband died a few years ago and she's got six kids and I can't even tell you how many grandkids and great-grandkids, lots of them. So she, at her husband's funeral, of course, she wanted me to scan and see, you know, what spirits were there, what family members and stuff like that.

  Julie: And there were two baby spirits that were there that were just in like little white gowns and they were floating over the casket at the funeral service. And so we're at the luncheon afterwards, Michelle, 'cause she went up to one of her daughters and she said. Did your dad have kids with somebody else that I didn't know about?

  Julie: Oh my gosh. Wow. No, those were miscarried babies of yours. Oh, wow. She said, well, I didn't miscarry any babies. I said, well, women miscarry babies all the time in their periods, and they don't and they don't realize. Yeah. Yeah, 

  Michelle: sure. 

  Julie: So I said, no, those were your babies. It was so funny. She's like, wait a minute.[00:46:00] 

  Julie: She's like, wait a minute. What's going on? So Angelica 10 is anybody that wants a free digital and audio book version, just go to Julie Ryan gift.com. Julie Ryan gift.com, just saying You heard me on Michelle's show, and we'll send you a free copy. Julie Ryan gift.com 'cause we're all gonna lose somebody.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

  Julie: At some point our life, it's part of life. We're all gonna be there ourselves one day. 

  Michelle: Yeah. 

  Julie: And and how we're surrounded by angels in the spirits of deceased loved ones and pets. And the interesting thing, talk about university based research, it shows that 90% of people at the end of their lives, Michelle, see the spirits of deceased loved ones and pets as they're transitioning.

  Michelle: Oh wow. 

  Julie: It's really helpful. 

  Michelle: Yeah. You 

  Julie: know, if you, if you ever think you're gonna lose anybody, which we all are, I think this stuff should be taught in the schools. 

  Michelle: Yeah, I agree. And I think that it's interesting because I hear your spirit, you're [00:47:00] always so joyous and you also don't take it too seriously.

  Michelle: 'cause you know, like you're connected to seeing that. It's not as, as drab as we as humans, like the human experience. We see it. Yeah. Knowing that there's more to the other side. 

  Julie: Well, not only that, but I think when we know that we're surrounded by angels in the spirits of deceased loved ones and pets, both as we're dying, and then once we get to heaven too, I call it heaven.

  Julie: Mm-hmm. Non-physical, whatever you wanna call it. It lets us live a more joyful life. 'cause it's like, okay, bring it on. If that's the worst thing that's gonna happen is I'm carried to heaven. I'm escorted to heaven by angels and all my loved ones are there. Okay. You know what it, it alleviates a lot of fear and trepidation and trying new things and exploring new things 

  Michelle: and Yeah.

  Michelle: And I think that we're meant to be living our life like fully. And I [00:48:00] feel like that the fear always kind of holds us back. It holds our body back. It really stagnates our achieve. We're talking Chinese medicine. Right, 

  Julie: right. Well, you're the queen of that, you know, way more about that than any of the rest of us.

  Julie: And, and it's, I think we all know it. 

  Michelle: We just call it different things. I think you, you call it spirit. She is kind of connected to that. It's really what brings it's the difference between, because like if you look at a body that's not alive versus an animated living body, what's the difference? It still has the same genetics.

  Michelle: So if genetics is the end all be all, then why is one alive and one not? Like what is it that makes the difference? And you know, some people call it spirit, other people call it chi life force. You know, we all call it different things, but ultimately it's the same thing. 

  Julie: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And the work that you do is just so magnificent and you help so many women and [00:49:00] families.

  Julie: I'm just in awe of you. I send people to you all the time. I feel the same 

  Michelle: about you. I feel the same way. 

  Julie: I, I send people to you all the time. You know, when they, when they are wanting to conceive the time. Oh, thank 

  Michelle: you. That really, honestly, means so much to me. That you trust? My work. So first, yeah. And, and coming from you because I really, really admire you and I've admired you for so long, but you're just like so sweet and your nature's amazing, and you're fun and funny.

  Michelle: You always make me laugh. No. Well, I just adore you. Right back at you, babe. So if people are listening to this and they do actually want a reading with you, do you still do one-to-one readings? I do. Awesome. Yeah. Every day. Okay. Yeah. Cool. 

  Julie: Yeah. Ask julie ryan.com. Ask julie. ryan.com is where everything is.

  Julie: We're at. Ask Julie. Ryan. We release four shows a week. And all amazing, all the podcast networks and on YouTube. We're in [00:50:00] four. We're in English, Spanish, Portuguese, German and French. Amazing. I love it. On YouTube everything's said, ask Julie, Ryan and you call into my show. Thursday nights, we do a live show every Thursday, and people call in from all over the world and we talk to their dead grandma or scan their cat, or you know, scan them energetically do past life things do.

  Julie: So talk to Spirits and angels and all of that, and it's just a blast. 'cause I never know who's calling. I never know what their questions are gonna be or what's what Spirit's gonna say's. 

  Michelle: And you guys, Julie's like the real deal. I had mentioned she like completely read me like I did an MRI. She did not see that MRI and she literally went in and told me exactly what.

  Michelle: Type of fibroid I had wear and like very, very specific. And it was a very unusual configuration, I will say that. But also you guys don't realize like Julie's a big deal, like she's been on like. A huge [00:51:00] podcast. Like she's really amazing. You wouldn't know it by her Hum. Humbleness and humility and how sweet she is, but she's, she's amazing.

  Michelle: Yeah. So, 

  Julie: Aw, thank you. And I have five graduates that work with me now too. Oh. Oh, that's so great. So they're a lot less expensive than I am. And you can usually get in to see them really quickly a lot of the time within the same week. 

  Michelle: Oh, awesome. And they're 

  Julie: all amazing. So, you know, whatever you got going on, if you're looking for some extra help, whether it, like I said, whether it's a pet thing or talking to a deceased loved one, or a medical thing, or a past life thing, it's all so much fun.

  Julie: Past lives are just a blast, as you know. Because many times we can validate the information we get from Spirit with historic documentation online. And you just think, that's wild. I 

  Michelle: can't make this stuff up. There's no way. Oh, big time. Well, it's like the many lives, many masters. I mean the stuff that he was saying and he was such a skeptic, [00:52:00] but he was like, this is crazy.

  Michelle: 'cause this is actually checking out with like real. Like history. 

  Julie: First time I saw that was on Oprah. Yeah. Probably 30 years ago. Yeah. I thought what? Yeah, I've never heard 

  Michelle: of it before. It's fascinating. Really fascinating. So Julie, thank you so much for coming on today. And I actually do have somebody that I sent her your information, so she's gonna be reaching out another person.

  Michelle: Okay. And I was gonna ask her to come on here. Yeah. Oh 

  Julie: yeah. Well, I'll look forward to talking with her. 

  Michelle: I'll, I'll help any, in 

  Julie: any way I can. It's, and you get a lot of people 

  Michelle: with fertility. 

  Julie: You've, you've, I do. Been drawing that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it's spirit working through me and with me to help them heal.

  Julie: Spirit, working through you and with you to help people heal. Yeah. Help people get pregnant. Yeah. Oh, the fertility stuff is such a, it's so fun. Wonderful. It's amazing. It really is. It's a miracle. Yeah. It's, 

  Michelle: it's miraculous. It's beautiful. It is. Absolutely. Awesome. Well, as [00:53:00] always, it's always a pleasure talking to you, Julie.

  Michelle: Thank you so much for coming on today, my honor. Love you. Love you too. [00:54:00] 

Ep 350 The #1 Mistake People Make When Trying to Manifest Their Baby

On today’s solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore the often-misunderstood world of manifestation, especially as it relates to trying to conceive. If you’ve ever felt guilty for having negative thoughts or wondered whether your mindset is blocking your fertility, this episode is for you.

I break down the energetic and physical layers of manifestation, share how flow state and nervous system regulation impact your ability to create (including fertility), and offer actionable tips for integrating mindset work in a way that supports, not overwhelms, your journey. From ancient wisdom to real-life stories (including how I manifested my dream job and meeting my husband), I share how true manifestation stems from a state of ease, alignment, and wholeness.

Key Takeaways: 

• Manifestation is not about toxic positivity or blaming yourself for your fertility journey

• Flow state, deep presence and openness, is the true foundation of creation

• Fertility is an extension of the body’s creative energy and should be supported holistically

• Validation of your emotions is essential, resisting them leads to stagnation

• Aligning body and mind through practices like meditation, journaling, and joy-based activities can help shift your energetic state

• Affirmations work best when they feel safe, believable, and rooted in gratitude
  

If you’re curious about how to quiet your mind and gently support your body with mindset tools, my Rooted Membership is designed for you. It’s a space where I share hypnosis audios, meditations, and mindset practices to bring calm to your fertility journey. You can even try it free for 7 days and see how it feels. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/rooted-fertility-mindset-membership 

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: 350 (Audio)

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 350 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today's topic is one that I feel a lot of women on the fertility journey wonder about, and especially when it comes to mindset, tools, affirmations, or manifestation practices.

  And the question is. Should you worry about manifesting when trying to conceive? And this is such an important conversation because there's so much messaging out there about the power of your thoughts and energetics and creating your future. And while these tools can absolutely be supportive, they can also bring up a lot of pressure or even guilt, especially on the fertility journey.

  That is already filled with emotions and stress. So let's unpack this together. I wanna share how I see manifestation fitting into fertility, why it's not the whole picture, and how it personally supported me in ways that [00:01:00] I did not expect. So stay tuned.

  So should you be worrying about manifestation when you're trying to conceive? So let's start with this. No, you should not be worrying about manifestation when you're trying to conceive, although it can be, and there are a lot of tools that you can do that can support you. Through the journey. And I wanna make sure that it is clear that no, you are not blocking yourself from trying to conceive, you are trying your best to do whatever you need to do in order to have that baby.

  So this is something that I come across a lot with my work and the clients that I work with and my patients as well. And what I [00:02:00] find is that there's a lot of guilt that people hold and feel. That they are really at fault for the challenges that they're going through, and that is completely not the case.

  In fact, many people who are trying to conceive really would try to move mountains in order to grow their family. So it's not that not enough is being done and also having negative thoughts or ears. Does not mean that you are manifesting every fear that you're having. So I would like to really, really unpack a lot of this.

  But I also want to talk about how this can come in as a support if done in an aligned way. But when it comes to trying to conceive, there are so many different layers to it, and there are a lot of things that you really have to do that are in this material world, and it's not something that you could just think about, for example.

  Choosing the right diet, choosing the right lifestyle, really making those [00:03:00] calls to the right doctors and going and getting checked. All of these things that you have to do that really come down to actionable items. So there is a place, and this is what I found, and this is one of the reasons why I call it the wholesome.

  I use that a lot in my wording. In my business, and that's what I call the wholesome lotus. The reason why is because I feel like when it comes to fertility, you really need to look at yourself as a whole, and Chinese medicine really looks at the human body as a whole and that the body and mind are interconnected.

  So you have a place for everything. There's a place for mindset. There's a place for the physical aspect of it and actionable items. There's a place really for the yin and the yang, which are two opposing, but working together opposites. So when it comes to wellness, wholeness, vitality, there are so many different aspects of ourselves that really need to come into play.

  So really living in this 3D [00:04:00] reality. Is extremely essential and very important and not something that you wanna skip over. So I would never say that it's a good idea to just work on the mindset and forget about everything else. And by the way, if you're hearing some noise outside, we have our gardening taking place right now as I record, but you know, here in my real life.

  I sometimes have to balance and I still wanna record and I still wanna share the message, and sometimes I can't wait until everything's really perfectly and quiet. So hopefully that's not going to impact too much of the sound. But in any case, physical aspect is extremely important. And we also know based on research that the mindset aspect can really impact your physiology.

  Another thing I wanna mention is that sometimes people get into this. Misconception that manifesting and thinking positive, it's only about thinking positive and you can't feel any other feelings and you have to shut down [00:05:00] any other feelings that are there or come up or any pain or discomfort emotionally.

  And that's not the case. I think that that actually could be a very bad trap to get into. It's really, really important to validate your feelings and the way I see the mind, and throughout all of the different lessons and books that I've read and things that I've learned throughout the years. 'cause I've just always been fascinated by the mind is that if you look even throughout history, a lot of the ancient traditions that focus a lot on meditation and mindset like Buddhism.

  It really comes down to the fact that everything's energy. And the more we resist what is, the more it really persists and the more we get stagnated and stuck in that place. So one of the most important things that you can do really, is to allow the thoughts to come when they're active. And the way I see emotions is that sometimes they're dormant and you can control your thoughts.

  Sorry about the noise in the [00:06:00] background. But sometimes those emotions start to get activated, and the way I see it is that once the wind kicks up, you're not gonna be able to fight the wind. You gotta just let it go and kinda let it flow and move, and the easier you allow that emotion to go through, so long as you're not saying anything hurtful or creating any pain for others around you and just kind of processing it on your own.

  Then the easier it will flow through you and it will create more flow and balance, not only in your mind, but also in your body. And this is really from a Chinese medicine perspective as well. Stagnation, liver stagnation, stagnation comes really from us, resistant. It's like an internal resistance that we have to what is happening around us.

  So once things are already manifest and you don't like the way that things are going. Fighting it is actually going to be keeping that more in place. 'cause you're [00:07:00] creating more reality within that. So I'm gonna talk a lot kind of abstract here when it comes to manifestation and really the energetics that are underlying to your life and how you're responding to things when it comes to that energy.

  And we look also into like. Ancient traditions such as martial arts, and there's something called a keto, and that is basically a type of martial arts that rather than resisting. The person that's coming at them, like say somebody is running towards them, they actually move in the direction of the person running towards them so that they're using that energy that rather than to resist it, they're moving with that energy and through doing that, they actually defeat the other person.

  Now I know that that is a little bit more of kind of like. Us against them kind of energy, but it's really using the energy that's coming at you and moving with it. And by doing so even energetically in the body, [00:08:00] you're allowing that energy to move through rather than get stuck. And so this is the importance of validation and it's the importance of self validation because ultimately what validation is, is a true open acceptance of what is, and that could be what is the state that you're in emotionally at this moment in time.

  When you're allowing that aspect to be, then you're allowing that energy to move. And when you're doing that, you are actually prepping your nervous system to be in the right place for any kind of manifestation or creation. So when an artist is about to paint something on. Canvas. It's important that they clear out the space around them and they clear out the canvas and they have everything ready so that they're able to create from a place of clarity rather than clutter.

  So the way I see it, it's really important when you are creating, whether it's energetically creating or [00:09:00] creating in your life. Really, ultimately what manifestation is, is creation, and it's very much linked in the sense to fertility, because fertility is the creativity of the body. So in my personal experience, I think that it is really important to prime your nervous system, to get it into a state where you have more flow in your body and in your mind before you create.

  What's really interesting 'cause I actually found it when I was traveling once, just randomly found this book. And it's called Flow, the Psychology of Optimal Experience by Miha. And I'm gonna say C 'cause the last name is a little hard to pronounce. And in this book, he basically describes a state of flow and how athletes have this and creators have this, and people who get really into a creative state.

  Get into a state of flow and that state of flow really you could look at as extreme presence. It's to the point where people get so in the zone of the [00:10:00] present moment, it's like extreme, extreme presence where they're really able to tune into a portal where they can create and really channel a lot of information.

  So you'll see this with athletes, you'll see this with musicians and artists as well. And to me that is not. Separated from fertility, 'cause that flow is where creation occurs. So whether that creation occurs mentally or the creation happens physically as in fertility, that is the same energetics is just in a different density and expression.

  So for my perspective, being an artist and understanding that aspect, mentally I see a lot of corresponding. Similarities between creativity of the mind and creativity of the body. And so when you're creating, truly creating in the mind, knowing that there's this flow state that happens when people really are immersed into [00:11:00] that creation.

  And similarly, it happens also when couples are intimate. It's kind of like this immersion, this letting go, this release. So getting into this flow where you're extremely present is the ultimate state, in my opinion, where manifesting can occur. And if you look at Dr. Joe Dispenza's work, he works a lot on the mind and manifesting, and he talks about the quantum field and really getting into the quantum.

  And part of it is really forgetting where you are, forgetting time and. A lot of people when they talk about the flow state, they say they really feel like this timelessness in that moment. So to me, that is really the primal foundation for any kind of manifestation. So, personally, I'm gonna talk about my own journey and how I found manifestation, how I found it to work.

  So years ago when I was a very stressed out architect, and it was around the same time that I actually started to see an acupuncturist. The [00:12:00] acupuncturist was helping me with my period, so think second chakra creativity, that's the womb area, and he was helping me with that as well. And during this time, not only was I getting better physically and my period was starting to regulate, but I also got into a book, and you can call it synchronicity or it's kind of some crazy coincidence that I happened to find this book around the same time that I was also physically healing.

  And this book was called The Power of the Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy. And this book has really changed my life. Through this book. I started writing affirmations, but it just so happened to be, and I kind of like made sense of this later on that I also meditated around that time I got into meditation.

  So I think that in a weird way, synchronicity, I was. Priming my mind to be in a state of creativity and priming my mind to be in a state where I was able to manifest. And so what I ended up doing is learning the techniques [00:13:00] and one of them being writing down affirmations. And really the key thing is, is that you write affirmations that are in the present moment.

  And it's important really as you are creating and writing the affirmations that you find ones. That align with your, your BS meter. And what I mean by that is that you don't want to have the BS meter go off saying this is just complete nonsense. Because as soon as that happens, your subconscious mind, your conscious mind is gonna be like, this is not gonna happen.

  This doesn't make sense. I don't really believe in it. You wanna feel safe in that affirmation, meaning you want that affirmation to not be such a drastic jump from the reality that you're in to the reality that you want, but you're thinking, okay, even though you really want that reality, it doesn't feel safe to jump from such a strong contrast of reality.[00:14:00]

  So it's important to find something that will ease you into it, and then the more seasoned you become on manifesting, the easier it will be. And personally, my own journey, I started writing down affirmations and for me, I'll tell you the stories that happened to me. I was working, I moved to New York.

  Around that time, it was in between jobs. So I lived in San Francisco. I moved back, I stayed with my mom, and I was supposed to work in New York City. And one of the things I really dreaded at first was to work in New York City in some cooped up little cubicle where I had no light. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm reading this book.

  It's telling me that I should be manifesting and focusing on only what I want, not what I don't want. So I said, okay, I want natural light. That was something that I felt really important. So at the time, I kept thinking of like natural light working in a job that I really liked. And it happened to be, even though I changed my careers and I didn't feel that architecture aligned for my work, [00:15:00] it still happened to be my favorite job that was actually gonna come from that manifestation.

  So I started thinking about and writing about. Working in a job where I had lots of natural light and what do you know? I found a job and they had three stories in a building in New York City. And where they put me was right under these huge high ceiling skylights. And I'm thinking like, this is very, very unrealistic.

  And I remember even telling my cousin who lives in New York City and he said, that is just not something that happens. It's very, very rare. So that was just one of the things that I saw. And then I also really enjoyed the people I had the best time. And then I started writing affirmations about. Meeting my husband.

  And so I wrote a huge list of exactly what I wanted. I wrote it on a really beautiful handmade paper, so it was one of those like handmade papers that was really cushiony and beautifully made, and I put a candlelight and I created this [00:16:00] whole atmosphere and I wrote down what I wanted in a husband. And I described it as if it already happened.

  So I said, I am married to X, Y, and Z. And I described exactly his personality and there were definitely very unique traits that I put in there that were very specific to him. A month later, I met my husband and the crazy thing is I don't remember throwing that paper out. I remember keeping it somewhere.

  And for the life of me, I have no idea where it disappeared to. But I will not forget the list that I put in because it was exactly who my husband was. And I know because it was something that I really felt strongly about as I was writing. So it was something that would never really leave my memory. So ultimately, a manifestation practice can really support your fertility journey, but you don't want it to.

  Invalidate your experience. You don't want it to overwhelm you and be more stressful, and you don't want it to make you feel any kind of [00:17:00] regret or shame that you're not doing things right, but if you use it in a way that can really support you. It could be really tremendous, and I do often talk about this with my clients and my patients as long as I know and feel that they're ready.

  So if you are ready and you feel like, okay, I wanna add this to my journey, then here are a couple of tips, and I talked a little bit about this before. One of them is to really prime yourself, to be in a state where you're able to be in flow. It's really, really important to be in a more neutral state where you're not resisting too much and you're not desiring too much, if that makes sense.

  So you don't want too much of a push or a pull. You wanna get into a state where you're a little more neutral and aligned. One of the best tools for that is meditation. What meditation does oftentimes is it really gets you into the present moment. It gets you into your body, it gets you into a [00:18:00] receptive listening state, and it also really gets you open.

  And the way to meditate really, there are two major ways that a lot of people will teach, and one of them is to pay attention to your breath because you cannot really be breathing in the past or the future. If you are focused on your breath, it's usually in the present moment. So you're ultimately giving a.

  Focus to your mind so that when you have the monkey mind in the background, you can bring it back into the breath, which is always in the present moment. That being said, you're always gonna have a little bit of a monkey mind, and your mind is gonna wanna go wandering off, but what you do is you keep bringing it back to the breath.

  And similarly, you can also do mantras internally that you're thinking to your mind now. The mantras that you choose do make a difference. There are seed mantras that are from Vedic traditions and they have studied the different mantras and there are certain mantra sounds that do make a difference.

  Some sounds that are random can actually make it [00:19:00] worse. So they studied a lot of these sounds and they found that these seed mantras actually do. Calm the nervous system. So if you wanna just focus on one, it could be own, or it can even be the word calm or one, because those have been shown to also calm the nervous system.

  So. That being said, your subconscious mind does not know the difference between negative or positive. So if you wanna say something that you want into your life, focus more on what you want. Don't say, I don't wanna be afraid, because your subconscious mind will take that as I wanna be afraid. You don't wanna do that.

  So you wanna say, I want whatever it is you want, and. In order to bypass the BS monitor in your mind, what you'll wanna do is maybe start slowly, so maybe focus on my body and my reproductive health is getting better and better in every day. So you're saying it as something that is happening in the present moment, so it's getting better.[00:20:00]

  But you can also say it is primed. It is optimal, it's healthy. There's a lot of blood flow in my uterus and my ovaries and every cell is being healed. So you wanna say it in the present moment. You wanna say it as if it already happened, but to go from like wanting to conceive to say, I already have a baby.

  It might actually cause your mind to say, Hey, no, something's not right. So you want to ease yourself into that. You could imagine yourself eventually pregnant, a healthy pregnancy. Some people do actually see the baby, and so it's not that you shouldn't do that at all. You just wanna check in with yourself and see if your body and your mind are aligned with that, that it feels more natural.

  So that's why I always say start out slow. Ease yourself into it. There are a couple of tricks that you can do. One being focusing on gratitude journal in general. When you're in a state of gratitude and when you're saying thank you, that means you've [00:21:00] received, you're coming at things with a state of receivership.

  When you're doing that, you're already allowing things to come in so you can combine. I am thankful for things that have already happened, like starting a gratitude journal. Then through that, you can always add to that things that you're thankful for, that you wish you had, but as if it already happened, so that you're thankful for it, and you can mix and match and combine those two so that your mind will say, okay, well, I'm obviously thankful for things that I see right now.

  So it will be a lot more receptive and suggestible to the things that you want. Another thing that is really important is not just your thoughts and not just what you're writing and saying. Also your state of mind. So this is one of the things that I often see with people when they're going through their fertility journey, since it is so stressful.

  Sometimes we push back, are things that give us joy. You know, all the things that you used to do before you were on [00:22:00] the fertility journey. It's really, really important to make time for that and to make time for things that bring you joy because your state of emotions does impact. How you're able to create.

  And when you're in a state of survival, your body is not gonna be in a creative state because it's more focused on survival. And now we know also that being in a survival state or a fight or flight mode is also going to impact your fertility in a physiological way. So it's really important to do things that give you more peace, give you more ease.

  And I suggest, I highly suggest, actually, this is a really quick fix, is watching comedies. Just laughing, getting into that state where you're just forgetting just even for a little bit, even if you could take an hour a day of doing something like that, something that will get your mind off of things.

  Maybe being in nature, doing something that you like. Listening to music, anything that you can do that will shift your state of mind. To a more positive, more [00:23:00] easy, more open would be ideal. So if this is something that you feel really resonant with and it's something that you would like to learn more about, how to get into a state of calm and really get into the mindset aspect of it, I do have a rooted mindset membership.

  That helps with a lot of different ways to really get into the inner workings of our minds. And this includes hypnosis, audios, meditation tips, lots of mindset tools, including some yoga as well. And I will leave a link to that in the description so you can check it out. The great thing about it is that I have a seven day trial, so you can check it out if you like it.

  Keep it. So I really hope you benefited from this information. I do think that manifestation is something that a lot of people are not really sure how to view. I personally have seen it work like insanely work, and I've had it even happen with my house. So I know it works just [00:24:00] on my own personal journey, and I've heard a lot of pretty crazy stories from my clients as well, so I know it does work.

  My belief is that we are born creators, but it's just important on how to do it and not to do it in a way that is too constricted. Pulling too strongly. It's in a state that is more expansive and released because I do feel like that flow state is really important when it comes to creation. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and I will see you next time. [00:25:00]

Ep 349 Blocked Creativity, Emotional Trauma & the Womb-Fertility Connection

On this powerful solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore the deep connection between blocked creativity, emotional trauma, and the womb, and how this interplay can directly affect your fertility. While so many focus on ovulation tracking, supplements, and diet, it’s often the unspoken, unprocessed emotions that quietly influence conception.

In this episode, I share the wisdom of ancient traditions and modern science, revealing how the womb is not just a physical organ but an energetic, emotional, and creative center. From Chinese medicine’s heart-womb connection to somatic healing practices like visualization and movement, I offer actionable ways to reconnect with your womb and unlock its healing potential.

Whether you're trying to conceive or simply seeking a deeper relationship with your body, this episode will invite you to listen inward, release what’s been stored, and restore safety and softness to the womb space.


Key Takeaways: 

• How trauma, grief, and emotional blocks can be stored in the womb

• The ancient and energetic significance of the womb as a creative center

• How the heart and uterus are connected through Chinese medicine

• Practices to restore safety and regulation in the nervous system

• Simple tools like visualization, movement, and self-compassion to nurture the womb
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 349 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and before we dive into today's episode, if you've been enjoying this podcast and it's brought you clarity or comfort on your fertility journey, I would be so appreciative if you took a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify.

  It truly helps other women who may also be feeling lost or overwhelmed, find the support they need. Now, today's episode touches on something I believe isn't talked about nearly enough in the fertility spaces, and that is the energetics and emotional wisdom of the womb. If you've been trying to conceive and you're doing all the things, tracking ovulation, taking supplements, changing your diet, but still feel like something deeper might be holding you back, you're going to wanna stay with me.

  'cause your womb is more than just a place of physical [00:01:00] creation. It's an energetic center, A space that holds not only life, but also emotion, memory, trauma and deep creative power. And when we begin to reconnect to the space through meditation, movement, and even the act of simply listening, we begin to unlock a different kind of fertility.

  One that is rooted in safety. Softness and self trusts. We'll also explore how ancient traditions and even modern science, like what's revealed in the body, keeps a score, are showing us just how deeply the body store's emotional experience and how this can affect your conception. So whether you're actively trying to conceive or just feeling called to deepen your relationship with your womb, this episode is for you.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:02:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: So I'm gonna talk about your womb, not just as a physical organ, but as a creative portal. Across many ancient traditions throughout history, the womb has been seen as a sacred center of life, not just for babies, but for dreams, healing, and inner wisdom. In Vedic philosophy, they refer to the golden womb, which is what birthed the entire cosmos.

  And in Chinese culture, the archetypal guang, the goddess of compassion, is often pictured holding a vase. That represents the womb pouring healing waters into the world. She's considered to be a protective of mothers, children, and emotional restoration. These stories remind us that the womb is not [00:03:00] just functional, it's spiritual, emotional, and deeply wise.

  And guess what? Modern science backs this up in the book. The body keeps the score. Dr. Bessel VanDerKolk explains that trauma doesn't only live in our memories. It lives in our bodies. For many women, unprocessed, grief, shame, trauma, or fear gets stored in the pelvic bowl, AKA, our womb, and when that space is tight.

  Guarded or disconnected, the body may not feel safe enough to open for conception. I wanna emphasize that this does not mean you are broken. It means that your body is protecting you until it feels safe again. So ultimately, that is what Womb Healing is all about. I. It's about creating a space of safety in your body so that your womb can release unprocessed emotions.

  And oftentimes we have this, not just in our womb, but so many places in our bodies, and I find this a lot with my patients at work. Oftentimes we work on really [00:04:00] releasing a lot of blocks energetically and physically through the body in Meridians, and I oftentimes see people who have experienced a lot of trauma.

  Or grief in their past, release a lot of emotions while the energy in their meridians are being released. This is because there is a physical and somatic process to our emotions and how we are able to process. Sit through our bodies. So the fact that the emotions are there doesn't mean something's wrong.

  It just means that we stored something in our body, that when it's safe, it is able to release, and when it's able to release, our bodies can come back into their optimal state. In traditional Chinese medicine, there's a lot of reference to a vessel called B Mai. So the uterus connects to the heart and it also connects to the kidneys.

  Through another vessel called bowel luau. So those are the two vessels that feed the uterus. And I've spoken in the past about how the kidneys play a really important role on [00:05:00] conception, but the heart is also really important and it connects directly to the uterus. So a lot of times we will hold energetic blocks in the heart as well, and when we have those energetic blocks, it directly impacts.

  The state of our uterus. So the heart's role in the uterus is to open the uterus. So think about the times that we're opening. The uterus would be during our periods or monthly bleeds, so it's opening the uterus to let the blood out. It also opens the uterus when a woman is ready to go into labor, and it also opens the uterus when a woman is ready to conceive.

  Interestingly enough, we see that oxytocin, which is considered the love hormone, and it really is a. Hormone that has US connect, which really represents kind of a heart hormone, is increased around the time of ululation. And it also increases right after orgasm or connecting with your partner. And to me, nothing happens out of order with nature.

  And so there must [00:06:00] be some kind of impact on oxytocin 'cause it also makes the uterus contract around that time that can support the uptake of sperm. So to me, this is kind of like a physical representation of the heart opening the uterus. So when I personally see patients, I don't just look at their physical body, I look at their emotions and how they impact their bodies.

  And what I find is the longer a person has those energetic and emotional blocks, the more embedded they become in our bodies. And sometimes that means that it might take a little longer to release those. But that being said, it's not impossible at all. What I also find is creating a. State of neutrality and nervous system.

  Regulation in the body also induces a very good healing state, and it allows the body to feel more safe. When the body feels more safe, the womb automatically reflects that feeling of safety. So there's a couple of ways in which we can induce that state of healing. And really nurture [00:07:00] the womb. And one of the ways is through visualization.

  Many studies have shown that visualization actually has a very direct influence on neuro physiology. They've seen this with athletes. When people imagine eating lemons, they salivate, which is an involuntary response. It is a response that directly connects with the visualizations that we're having. So I personally suggest doing visualizations a lot because they are an untapped asset that most of us don't even realize that we can use.

  So oftentimes I suggest to do something kind of physical and mental. So having your hands. Wherever your hands go is usually where you focus your energy. So you can have your left hand on your heart space and then your right hand on your womb, and you can close your eyes and start to imagine a connection between the two, and you can really visualize.

  The energy under both areas. And one of the things that you can do too is breathe through the [00:08:00] heart, which is a tool often used by HeartMath Institute in order to create heart brain coherence. When you have heart brain coherence, it creates a state of peace and calm, and also while you have your hand on your heart.

  You could bring up images of people that you love or feelings that you have with them. And this could be even holding a pet or anything that you really feel brings you that warm and fuzzy feeling in your heart center. So you can induce that and cultivate that. And imagine that energy just increasing more and more in the heart.

  And as you're feeling that feeling, bring that energy down into your womb, almost like your womb is sucking it through a straw. So really imagining literally in your mind. Bow, my channel, connecting the heart and the womb. And you can also feel in those two centers that you're breathing almost like a wave, starting with a belly and then ending in the heart and going back and forth, oscillating.

  So start to imagine almost like a figure eight. Connecting the two. As we know, since we process [00:09:00] so much of our emotions physically, exercise and movement can have a very profound effect on our emotions. So even though it feels like it's all mental, a lot of it is also physical. So doing movements like belly dancing, kundalini yoga, anything that moves around the hips or even creative dancing, can really shift us into this creative energy that is held in our womb, in Vedic traditions.

  It's known that that second center, which is the sacred chakra or where the womb is, is considered to be a real creative state. And if we think about it physically, it is a creative state because that is where we hold new creations. And it's also very much linked to our energetic creativity. So doing things like dancing or even engaging in creative acts like painting.

  Cooking or anything that really requires us to be creative. So think any kind of ideas, new ideas, writing things down, those are all creative things. It doesn't necessarily have to be just art, [00:10:00] and you can literally write a letter to your womb directly and say what it is that you want to feel. What it is that you want for your womb.

  By doing that, you are creating an intention and a connection, and sometimes you can even write things that have hurt your heart and you could just release that and have this connection and make that so it doesn't have to seem like such a mystery really, or something that is so disconnected. You can connect to your body, you're.

  Are already connected to your body. It's just a matter of reconnecting those forces and that energy. Something else that I always suggest is doing the meta meditation, which is the meditation where it is cultivating loving kindness, and it really starts with yourself. It starts with loving yourself and wishing yourself well, and then wishing.

  Your loved ones well, and then going into people that you really like and wishing them well, and then on and on until it gets to the point where it's people that have hurt you, wishing them well. And this is an incredibly healing [00:11:00] practice. And I would say start with yourself and then your loved ones and the people you like, and maybe people that you're neutral to.

  And stop there if you've been really hurt. And eventually when you feel strong enough, you can continue on to the people who have hurt you. While this might be a really difficult thing to do, it is incredibly powerful and healing the idea of forgiveness has tremendous healing benefits for the body, and this is one of the ways that we can do that is really connect to that.

  And forgiveness doesn't just end with people. It could be also forgiving yourself. I know a lot of people that I've worked with. They've said this, they've said that they felt that their body was failing them. And while this is completely valid, we know that this is one perspective and it's important to really honor the body because the body doesn't try to fail you.

  It gives you signs that something is needed or something is missing. So connecting with that and really having that compassion and that self-compassion and really giving yourself that love [00:12:00] is incredibly, incredibly healing. So I hope this episode spoke to you on some level because I know that the energetic aspect of fertility is often easy to miss because we get so bombarded with so much information, lots of to-dos, and sometimes the last thing that we can think about.

  Is really the energetics of our body and what our body is really communicating to us. So I hope this inspired more of a connection with your womb and really seeing it as a creative center that can support your fertility journey. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I'll see you next time. [00:13:00] [00:14:00]

Ep 348 The Hidden Link Between Stress, Blood Sugar, and Fertility with Jillian Greaves

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jillian Greaves @jilliangreavesrd, a functional medicine dietitian and women’s health expert, to unpack the complex—but often overlooked—relationship between blood sugar balance, hormonal birth control, and fertility. Jillian shares her personal health journey from battling persistent symptoms like acne, bloating, anxiety, and hair loss to uncovering the deeper root causes through functional medicine.

We dive into how hormonal birth control impacts your hormones, gut, liver, and micronutrient status—and why so many women feel worse when coming off the pill. Jillian also breaks down why managing blood sugar is essential not only for hormone balance but also for egg quality, ovulation, and creating safety in the body.

Whether you're navigating post-birth control symptoms, thinking about conception, or simply curious about how nutrition and nervous system regulation influence your cycle, this episode is packed with insights that will leave you feeling empowered and informed.

Key Takeaways: 

• Hormonal birth control suppresses your natural hormone cycle and can lead to long-term nutrient depletion, gut imbalance, and inflammation.

• Coming off the pill is often a bumpy process that requires patience, support, and targeted care.

• Balanced blood sugar is the foundation of hormonal health and fertility—swings in either direction can create stress signals in the body.

• Fasting and trendy diets like intermittent fasting may backfire for women, especially those trying to conceive.

• Nutrition is powerful, but blood sugar regulation also depends on stress management, sleep, and circadian rhythm alignment.

Guest Bio:

Jillian Greaves @jilliangreavesrd is a functional medicine dietitian and women's health expert who helps women address the root causes of hormonal imbalances, period problems, and fertility challenges. After facing years of frustrating symptoms and inadequate answers from conventional care, Jillian turned to functional medicine to heal her own body and now supports others through a personalized, evidence-based approach. She offers private coaching, advanced lab testing, and practical guidance to help women feel empowered in their health journeys.


Links and Resources:

• Visit Jillian’s Instagram

• Book a free discovery call via her website

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Discover The Wholesome Fertility Journey:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Jillian.

  Jillian: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

  Michelle: Same. So I always love to start the podcast with a new guest with the origin story. So I'd love for you to share your origin story and how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Jillian: Absolutely. I, I feel like every, everyone in this space has an origin story and, you know, kind of personal professional experiences that led them to, to do what they do now. You know, for, for me, in terms of becoming, you know, functional medicine dietician, specializing in women's health, it was really a, a combination of.

  Personal health struggles combined with professional experience as well. To give you a short [00:02:00] version of a very, very long story I about a decade ago started experiencing a lot of health issues, health symptoms that felt like they were popping up out of the blue. Eczema, anxiety, acne, bloating, head, hair loss.

  And at the time I was in grad school, you know, studying nutrition, I worked in nutrition research. I had an undergraduate degree in nutrition and felt like I was doing all the things that were text textbook healthy. But I, I started to experience a lot of these symptoms. At the time, I had also been on hormonal birth control for a little over 10 years that I was put on at a really young age for heavy periods, and I started to first seek out support from conventional providers.

  I. And was really left without answers. You know, they ran lab work and said, Hey, you're the picture of health. Everything looks great despite, you know, all these symptoms I was experiencing. And I was basically only offered band-aid solutions. So, you know, use a topical [00:03:00] steroid for the eczema, try this topical, or medication for the acne.

  And, you know, I was just tossed around from one provider to the next and no one was, was willing to dig deeper with me. And no one was kind of asking the question why. And. I really wasn't willing to accept that these symptoms were were happening for no reason. I had also tried to get support with learning more about the hormonal birth control that I had just taken, and in all honesty, had not questioned for, you know, 10 plus years and.

  You know, because I could not get support from my providers, I started to dive deep, deeper into research on hormonal birth control, really learning about female physiology, which I learned nothing about in my training. And, you know, eventually I also found the world of, of functional medicine, integrated functional medicine.

  And it was like, you know, an aha moment or the light bulbs went off where, you know, this deeper root cause approach was actually looking to assess why are these symptoms happening in the first [00:04:00] place? So, that led me to, you know, seek out advanced training in functional medicine and, you know, to run testing on myself to really start to take a serious look at my diet, my lifestyle, how things were, you know, supporting or not supporting me at the time.

  I was, you know, running half marathons, hit training five days a week, eating predominantly a plant-based diet. So I had a lot of changes to make. I also took myself off of, you know, hormonal birth control. Which led to all of my symptoms, you know, getting worse. I had long cycles, heavy, painful periods.

  But over time you know, through deeper testing and you know, with really targeted nutrition and lifestyle strategies, I was able to heal these symptoms naturally and really to get my body back to balance and to. Do that without the bandaid approaches. I always like to be honest about the fact that, you know, getting to that point of, of actual symptom resolution and, and having a lot of resilience [00:05:00] in my body took a lot longer in my mind than it, than it should have.

  And certainly healing takes time. However. You know, I was hacking a lot together on my own. And in talking with friends and, and family and colleagues, I realized like, wow, so many women out here are struggling with you know, being offered birth control is the only option for, you know, every women's health symptom un under the sun.

  And it really motivated me to start my private practice after, you know, becoming a registered dietician and to, you know, really change the trajectory of my, my career in terms of wanting to provide women with the support that I so deeply wished I had had when I was kind of in the, the trenches and struggling.

  Michelle: We share a lot in common. As a matter of fact, I've had like a 12 years of on and off like really irregular periods and, and it also caused circadian rhythm dysfunction. 'cause you know, there's a relationship between the two [00:06:00] anxiety, which. A lot of times we attribute it as a completely separate thing, but years of really not having answers and getting so frustrated and intuitively knowing there's gotta be something deeper than this, than what I'm being given.

  And, and then of course, you know, going through this state where you almost lose hope. You think, okay, that's just the way my body is, it's just off. But you don't realize. And then also kind of something that came to my mind as you were saying. How you got off the birth control pill. When you got off the birth control pill, you had more symptoms come up again.

  And sometimes actually, you know, the healing process can be a very frustrating one because you almost have to go through really difficult times and be patient knowing that your body's still moving in the right direction. But you almost have to go through those difficult months or maybe even sometimes.

  Close to a year to really regulate even when you are healing [00:07:00] yourself.

  Jillian: So, such a good point. And healing journeys are, are never linear. And you know, coming off of hormonal birth control after 10 plus years of hormonal suppression, naturally that's gonna be a. Big transition, a big change for the body, and things aren't gonna bounce back perfectly normal. And I think the hardest part in, in my journey and what I see with a lot of women is that they're in the trenches, they're struggling, they're trying different strategies and approaches.

  They're self researching and. You know, they, they often don't have support to guide them in terms of okay, you know, the symptoms you're experiencing or the response you're experiencing. Like, this is normal and we need to stick with it and give the body time. You know, women are just guessing, right? And they're frustrated and they can't find that support.

  So I think, you know, a key thing for me was really wanting to be able to, to guide women on that, that journey. And you know, 'cause I think when I did come off hormonal birth control and things went really haywire. You know, not having anywhere to [00:08:00] turn and just the stress that that adds is a lot.

  Michelle: Yeah. And also not knowing, not having anybody give you answers, or at least like some signposts, like, oh, it's gonna be fine eventually if you do X, X, Y, and

  Z. But completely like in the dark. And, and it is it's so frustrating and I see a lot of people, a lot of my patients coming in, so many people go on the birth control pill for years on end, like years with no breaks.

  I actually was on them too, and that was pretty much the solution I was given, but. For some reason I was just inconsistent. I was kind of like intuitively new to take breaks. But I, I could have just kept going if I just listened to what they said. Like, it just kind of like nonstop and a lot of people do.

  So I actually wanna talk about that because I wanna talk about what because there's so many people listening, I'm sure have been in the same boat. And what does the hormonal birth, hormonal birth control do to your body? Like what impact does it have? I know, I know like [00:09:00] how it, you know, from my perspective and my lens, but also I know that it really impacts gut health gut microbiome.

  It makes you deficient in a lot of vitamins and nutrients. So I'd love to get your take and kind of break down for people listening to understand really the processes of the body and how that aspect of it gets shut down.

  Jillian: Yeah. And I, I think that's so important because so many women are, are put on hormonal birth control without that informed consent in terms of like truly understanding the mechanism of action or like how the birth control's working, what are the potential side effects? And you know, I always like to say to clients that, you know, we are never anti birth control.

  If that's a tool that feels really supportive for you however. I do have a beef with the, again, the lack of in informed consent and women kind of getting all that information to make, you know, empowered informed decisions. So hormonal birth control. In, in terms of how, you know, how it works, it will vary depending on the type, right?

  Are we on an oral contraceptive or, you know, do [00:10:00] we have an IUD? But in terms of speaking to the, the oral contraceptive specifically the combined oral contraceptive being kind of the most. Common form of birth control. This type of birth control is essentially going to shut down our reproductive system.

  So, it is shutting your own hormones off. So we are not, you know, producing our own estrogen. We're not ovulating producing progesterone. I think that's so important to point out because so many women that get a monthly withdrawal bleed when they're on their placebo week, are, are not aware that they are not actually ovulating or, or cycling.

  So it's important to know that, again, this is a withdrawal bleed where we're, you know, kind of shedding or sloughing off. You know, the, the uterine lining where we get this, you know, withdrawal bleed, but we're not actually bleeding in the true sense of a period where ovulation has occurred. So first and foremost, you know, communication between the brain and the ovaries is shut down.

  So hormones are suppressed. In terms of potential, you know, side [00:11:00] effects with hormonal birth control, you, you hit on some of the, the big ones. Nutrient deficiencies really common. So, you know, B vitamins you know, magnesium vitamin C, selenium, zinc, all are depleted by hormonal birth control.

  And, you know, these can be kind of su subclinical, but. Again, if we're on hormonal birth control for 5/10/15 years, you know, these things can can really accumulate. And some of the nutrients that I'm mentioning that get depleted by hormonal birth control are also key key nutrients that are involved with hormone production you know, hormone breakdown and, and clearance.

  So. That's a big one. Other kind of side effects of, of the birth control pill definitely impacts to gut health. So, possibly negative shifts or implication for implications for our gut ecosystem. You know, our healthy gut microbes. There's also evidence indicating possibly increased intestinal permeability, meaning the [00:12:00] gut lining that we want to be really strong and healthy can become less healthy and essentially more.

  Permeable which can, you know, drive inflammation in the gut and also systemically. So we see those, those impacts on gut health. There's also impacts on cortisol in the adrenals. And there's also impacts on the liver, a heavy burden on, on, you know, the, the liver, which plays a key role in, you know, processing our you know, hormones as well.

  So those are kind of some of the, the big things I think about with hormonal birth control. And ultimately too, I, I'm sure you find this as well with clients where oftentimes women are on birth control for a long time. They come off when they wanna get pregnant and you know, thinking like, oh, you know, I'm gonna come off my cycle will be regular and I'm gonna get pregnant.

  And you know, for some women that may be the case. Great. For. The women we work with, that's often not the case where they come off hormonal birth control and their period doesn't come back, or it's very irregular hormones are imbalanced, or [00:13:00] they experience a whole slew of new symptoms that were kind of being suppressed by the hormonal birth control.

  Michelle: Yes, I see that very often. It's interesting 'cause I had a teacher when I was doing, when I was gonna school for Chinese medicine and. One of the teachers, her specialty was gynecology and she, and it was kind of interesting how she put it. She said, basically, your ovaries get lazy. It's almost like when you put a cast on, like what happens to the muscle.

  You could literally take two legs. One with that had a cast or arms, and you can see it became, it becomes almost like it looks emaciated. It's like skin and bones because the muscle's not being used. The body works like that. If you don't use it, you lose it. It's just like that. That's how the body works.

  So it does, it impacts that aspect of the body because it knows, oh, it's shut down. I don't need to work on this. This is something that I can put on the back burner. So it's pretty, pretty [00:14:00] fascinating stuff. And again, like you said, in many cases you might need it and that's okay, but at least you know, or you can prepare for it.

  So you know what you're signing up for, and if you are, you might wanna like, take breaks or, you know, consider different ways of taking it.

  Jillian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and we always tell women too, you know, if you're on birth control and you wanna remain on it, then there's so much you can do to, you know, support your, your body with mitigating some, you know, some of those side effects or if you're on birth control. Currently and you're thinking you wanna make a transition off in six months or a year, amazing.

  That's an opportunity for us to really support things to ideally, you know, prepare the body for a more, more easeful transition when the time, you know, feels right for you. A couple other things I I actually wanna mention about hormonal birth control that I, I also think is, you know, not talked about enough, is the fact that, you know, the oral contraceptive is associated with increased insulin resistance, so [00:15:00] more blood sugar issues, and also with increased levels of inflammation as evidenced by, you know, biomarkers like our, you know, CRP being elevated with women on hormonal birth control. So, I just think it's important to kind of have all of that information.

  Michelle: And speaking of blood sugar, I know that, I mean, we know that in PCOS cases like PCOS, but even otherwise, like it can really impact. Fertility and, and so I, I would love for you to talk about it 'cause I know you work a lot with this.

  Jillian: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I always say to clients that balancing blood sugar, blood sugar regulation is step number one if you want to, to balance your hormones. And blood sugar regulation is incredibly, incredibly important when it comes to fertility. So. Ultimately when we're talking about, you know, blood sugar balance, essentially we're referring to, you know, when we eat food and food that we eat is broken down into sugar or glucose and our glucose goes up, [00:16:00] right?

  Ideally after we eat throughout the day, we want to experience, kind of like slow rolling hills with our blood sugar. So slow rises and slow declines throughout the day. What we ideally wanna avoid are the big peaks in, in valleys, or the big spikes in crashes with blood sugar, where we're getting, you know, highs and lows highs with blood sugar, where we're getting big rapid spikes and blood sugars remaining elevated for too long.

  This can contribute to inflammation. So. When we have high, you know, high blood sugar, blood sugar spikes, the body has to pump out a lot of the hormone insulin in order to you know, usher that glucose into our cells. And, you know, high insulin chronically, again, is going to drive that inflammation, which can be, you know, damaging for egg quality in a big way.

  And we also know that excess insulin can drive the ovaries to overproduce hormones like androgen hormones. And this can even interfere with ovulation and the regularity of, you know, ovulation. As [00:17:00] you know, well as other, other symptoms, I. What's also, I think, not talked about enough is blood sugar lows or blood sugar crashes, right?

  So we talk a lot about, you know, avoiding blood sugar spikes, but in my mind, blood sugar lows or blood sugar crashes are, are just as detrimental to the body as these blood sugar highs in a chronic sense. When blood sugar gets too low. This kind of sense, you know, sets off the alarms in the body where the body senses, you know, energy resources are scarce.

  So it starts to pump out. Hormones like cortisol, one of our primary stress hormones. And cortisol will, you know, tap into glucose stores in our liver and our muscle and kind of dump that into the bloodstream to try to normalize things. So essentially low blood sugar is inducing a stress response.

  and we. intermittent. Asking.

  Yes, we're thinking intermittent fasting, you know, ultra low carb diets or, you know, carbohydrate intake that is inappropriate to, you know, sort of meet an individual's needs. You know, [00:18:00] so definitely the intermittent fasting. And you know. Just going too long between meals. You know, I, I'm sure a lot of listeners can relate to the feeling of, of low blood sugar, which can actually present a lot like anxiety, right?

  We might, you know, experience rapid heart rate, or we might feel jittery. We might feel, you know, moody, irritable. Hangry. Exactly. Hangry. And you know, these are all symptoms of low blood sugar or blood sugar crash and that stress response that follows. And when it comes to hormonal balance, when it comes to supporting and optimizing fertility and egg quality, you know, really the number one goal is to prioritize safety in the body.

  Right. A sense of safety from. Every angle. So, you know, making sure that blood sugar is really balanced and stable is an incredible way to promote and prioritize that safety in the body. And it's such a huge foundation that I, I find is often overlooked. We also do have data that's found. [00:19:00] That women who have blood sugar levels that are considered, you know, within normal parameters in terms of like their fasting glucose and their hemoglobin A1C, which are s some, you know, typical markers of you know, blood, blood sugar, health that your doctor might run.

  Women that have normal blood sugar parameters. But that experience dysglycemia meaning we're, we're getting, you know, highs and lows with blood sugar, even though our labs look normal. You know, these women actually have you know, are less likely to conceive on any given cycle. Also ovulation rate rates are more disrupted in women, again, that have normal blood sugar parameters, but are still experiencing you know, wonkiness with their blood sugar that is likely creating stress in their body.

  Michelle: It is so interesting. And so what is the cause? If, if they see that everything looks normal in the labs and they're still spiking, what condition is that? What is causing that?

  Jillian: Yeah, so, you know, ultimately I think it, it speaks [00:20:00] to the fact that. Like in our, you know, in our conventional system when it comes to like labs using blood sugar labs as an example first and foremost, normal reference ranges are very large, right? So what's considered normal is not actually always optimal.

  So these reference ranges are wide, where. We could be on sort of the far end of, of the scale which could indicate early stages of, of, you know, some issues. But because we don't fit into kind of the perfect box of a medical diagnosis of having pre-diabetes or diabetes, we kind of, you know, get fall through the cracks essentially.

  But I think it's, what's important to point out is that, you know, you may not have, you know, pre-diabetes or you may not have insulin resistance or issues with your cellular insulin sensitivity, but you can still be riding the blood sugar roller coaster and, and you can experience big swings with blood sugar from, you know, under eating, fasting, or, you know, erratic meal timing from stress, you [00:21:00] know, over exercising and under fueling disrupted sleep.

  So this can contribute to blood sugar wonkiness that may not be reflected in, you know, significant abnormalities in our labs. But these ups and downs with blood sugar can absolutely impact our hormones and our fertility.

  Michelle: That's fascinating because a lot of times you hear about blood sugar. You're thinking just diet, but you're mentioning all of these other aspects of them, which really prepare the body to handle it sounds like. Yeah.

  Jillian: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, nutrition is, is so foundational for balancing blood sugar. But, you know, you could have the most perfect, you know, diet in the world the most perfect, you know, meal timing. But if stress is, you know, totally out of check or unaddressed if our sleep quality is poor or we're not getting enough sleep, if our circadian rhythms are disrupted all of these things can, you know, create a lot of blood sugar wonkiness regardless of what we're eating.

  Michelle: Comes down to [00:22:00] one of my favorite topics, the nervous system.

  Jillian: Yes. Always goes back to the nervous system at

  the end

  of the day.

  Michelle: does. I, that's what I'm like. I'm like, it just really is all about the nervous system. I mean, it's all about everything, but the nervous system is such a conductor of everything. The vagus nerve impacts your gut health and the stressors.

  And it is just, all of it really comes down to feeling safe,

  like you said before.

  Jillian: more.

  Michelle: Yeah. So interesting. And so, so you kind of talked about how like those popular diets can impact it. We discussed about like skipping meals or maybe like going too low on carbs or are there any other things that you've seen with a more common like.

  You know, blanket diets.

  Jillian: Yeah, I would. I would say those are two of the biggest ones. So the intermittent fasting, which we see, you know, a lot of women applying as like skipping or delaying breakfast. I. And you know what, what's tough [00:23:00] about these things too is that, you know, there is you know, positive data on, you know, potential metabolic benefits to intermittent fasting in certain populations, predominantly in men and animal models that, you know, don't take female physiology into account.

  But, you know, new, newer research is finding that for women of reproductive age, these longer fasts. Really may, may be contraindicated. And, you know, with these longer fasts, what we're seeing is alterations in the, the peptide kisspeptin which is. Essentially the secretion is altered with these, you know, longer fasts where energy carbohydrates are scarce.

  And Kisspeptin influences our gonadotropin releasing hormone, which influences our LH and FSH, which influences our sex hormones and our menstrual cycle. So, fasting interestingly. And I'll be honest, you know, we don't have a ton of data on this. There's, you know, it's definitely newer and there's not a lot of studies in women, but I do also see this in practice in terms of, [00:24:00] you know, women that have these really long overnight fasts and you know, their cycles are irregular.

  You know, or they're struggling, you know, to conceive you know, they have really poor stress resilience in their, in their body. So I would say the.

  Michelle: is Ayurvedic principles, what something that I, one of the things that I studied, they talk a lot about how eating during the day when the sun is out, the body's more primed to digest and.

  And then having like less meals and kind of if you're gonna fast, fast, like in the evening time, and that is when it's more beneficial actually, and it helps your sleep. So it's not that fasting's terrible, it's just if it's done right in the right timing with the right type of body. So everybody's also so different.

  If you have somebody that's way underweight, they need more reserves, they need more nutrients, so. It wouldn't be beneficial. Somebody who overexercise and really is depleted. So it's like the body has [00:25:00] its own bank account, so if you shift it more towards evening, you're kind of working more with that circadian rhythm.

  Because our body's digestive system does slow down as the sun goes down. We really respond to that rhythm. So if we work with our body in that way, because most of us. You can actually, if you, if you go for a long time restricting your diet, you will lose your hunger in the morning. That's what I've seen a lot of times with my patients.

  And then once you start to do to eat, little by little you'll find that comes back. It's just like thirst. Same thing. Use it. You lose it. Your body sort of like just adapts to whatever you give it, but then your body will need that energy and you'll feel it, and you'll feel the difference. So on that level, I think that there is something to that circadian rhythm and kind of working with nature where it gets more optimized, I believe, if you do want that break in the evenings.

  [00:26:00] Now, another thing that I've heard of a lot is I. It's not just about eating like certain carbs, it's how you eat the carbs. Because you can first start out with like a protein or some fiber, something first for the body to take that's not going to spike the sugar. And then after that ease into maybe a fruit or something sweet where your body's able to take that more evenly.

  Am I correct? I know

  Jillian: Yeah.

  Michelle: not nutrition, but

  Jillian: Yeah. Yeah. I'd say on, on both accounts too, with what, what you're describing in terms of you know, PRI principles in Ayurveda with meal timing. I, I'm a big advocate of circadian eating where, you know, we're breaking our fast earlier in the morning, eating consistently throughout the day, but then maybe having an earlier dinner.

  And there's, you know, so much nuance depending on the individual and what they have going on. But at the end of the day, context is king. So, you know, fasting at the end of the day, [00:27:00] especially if the fast is prolonged you know, is, is a stressor on the body, right. So if, you know, we're someone that is, you know, underweight, we have a lot of, you know, life stress going on, and we're thinking about that context you know, our body, it, it may not be supportive for our body to have a, a longer overnight fast for someone that.

  Stress is lower, they're well fueled, well nourished, their nervous system is supported. They, you know, may benefit from that, you know, longer, overnight, fast. But I completely agree that, you know, in terms of what you described and kind of the data we're seeing too, where, you know, eating kind of ear earlier in the day when the body is prepped in prime for fuel has a lot of benefits.

  And in terms of the, the blood sugar piece with meal composition, you know, you're, you're spot on when it comes to, to carbohydrates at the end of the day. There's absolutely, you know, variation in how different carbohydrates are going to impact our blood sugar in terms of how rapidly, you know, our blood sugar will respond in, in terms of eating different carbohydrate foods.

  [00:28:00] But at the end of the day, really all carbohydrates are broken down quickly and make blood sugar rise more rapidly. So the, the blood sugar balance from a meal composition standpoint is really gonna come from the food pairings. Like you mentioned. So the protein, the fiber, the healthy fats you know, protein in particular is, is really supportive when it comes to blood sugar and essentially it with what you're, you're describing in terms of, you know, having some protein, having, you know, the fiber, prioritizing that even.

  First or earlier on in the meal. These things sort of act like a buffer, so it's going to slow down the absorption of glucose into the bloodstream. So instead of the carbohydrates kind of, you know, hitting the body and spiking our blood sugar it's gonna be a much slower, more, more rapid rise. So those food pairings are really key.

  And then definitely also thinking about, you know, carb quality. Sometimes I think when, when we think about carbs, we think about bread and pasta, right? And you know, when I think about carbohydrates, I'm thinking, you know, and [00:29:00] carbohydrates that we wanna, bring into the diet to really provide like deep, deep nutrition.

  I think about, you know, our starchy vegetables you know, our sweet potatoes you know, our potatoes, our, our squash. I think about fruit. I think about you know, legumes. I think about and not, you know, maybe not everyone is gonna do. Great with legumes. Again, there's a lot of nuance here, but I think about those fiber and nutrient dense starches that, you know, provide ample nutrition for the body alongside these other elements that promote the blood sugar regulation.

  Michelle: Yeah, so basically juice, even if it's like fresh grape juice, is not great on an empty stomach.

  Jillian: Yes, yes, yes. And I feel like a, a good, even just like visualizing it, if you imagine like eating a grapefruit and like eating all the, you know, flesh and the time that it takes you and you're chewing and, you know, breaking all that down versus drinking a glass of grapefruit, ju grape fruit juice. Woo. Where, [00:30:00] you know, there's probably several grapefruits in there.

  All of the, you know, fleshy fiber is removed and it's just like, you know,

  liquid sugar. So. Yeah.

  Michelle: in

  Jillian: Yeah. Yep. Yep.

  Exactly.

  Michelle: yeah, this is great. I mean, we can keep going on and on, but it's such great information because it really breaks it down. I think a lot of people hear all of these things and they hear about blood, blood sugar. They hear about gut health, they hear about what happens after getting off the birth control control pill.

  But like to break it down I think is so great because. Very similar to our journey. A lot of people are going and they're trying to get answers and they're not getting any. So I think that having this information is really what is going to empower a lot of people. Just having the information and understanding really like what it means.

  It's not just like, oh, okay, gut health is great for my fertility, but what does that mean and how can, like what can you do [00:31:00] to really impact it? Those are really important things for people to know and I think ultimately. Having that knowledge is really what is going to empower people just like it did us and what got us into the work we're doing.

  I think that it inspires you because then you're like, I, I don't want anybody going through what I went through.

  Jillian: Right, right. And you know, and there's, there's so much noise out there, right? There's so much information, which is a blessing and a curse. And I think at the end of the day, like, yeah, the end of the day with the things we're talking about too, you know, a lot of these things are not the sexiest or the most exciting things, right?

  Meal composition and meal timing or, you know, circadian rhythms. And I think it's just, it's easy to. Fall into the trap of like that shiny object syndrome and it's like, you know, just the different trends out there and fads on social media. And at the end of the day, a lot of this, yeah, a lot of this, it's back to the basics, right?

  And prioritizing those foundations and the nervous system support you know, all of these things are gonna [00:32:00] be likely some of the biggest key pieces you know, on a hormone healing journey. On a fertility journey. So I think it's impor, you know, important to point that out too because there's just, there's a lot out there.

  Michelle: Oh, for sure. No doubt. So for people hearing this and wanting to like learn more about you and your offerings, how can people find you? I.

  Jillian: Yeah, so you can check out my website, which is just jillian greaves.com. Lots of information, resources over there about, you know, what we do, how we work with women recipes, articles. And you can also check me out on Instagram. My handle is just Jillian Greaves Rd. I'm always over there sharing nutrition tips, recipes and talking all things women's health.

  Michelle: Awesome. I love it. Well, I could definitely feel the passion that you have in this and I can definitely like hear, you know, the knowledge and the research that you've done. So this is amazing, amazing information that you shared and I had a great conversation with you today, Jillian. So thank [00:33:00] you so much for coming on.

  Jillian: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: Awesome, so I'll stop recording.

  [00:34:00]

Ep 347 Healing After Loss: A Fertility Journey Rooted in Inner Wisdom with Laetitia Felix

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Laetitia Felix @mindset_bodyandsoul, a fertility mindset coach who shares her deeply personal and powerful journey through infertility, loss, and ultimately conception. After experiencing three ectopic pregnancies and an early miscarriage, Laetitia was told IVF was her only option, but she knew in her heart there was another path.

In this vulnerable conversation, she opens up about how slowing down, healing her nervous system, and connecting to her spiritual self helped her conceive naturally, against the odds and through the same fallopian tube doctors advised removing. We also explore spirit baby communication, the emotional toll of unexplained infertility, and how reclaiming your inner wisdom can be the most radical act of self-love.

This episode is an invitation to stop, listen, and trust the messages your body and spirit may already be sending you

Key Takeaways: 

• Laetitia Felix conceived naturally after three ectopic pregnancies and an early loss—through the same tube doctors recommended removing.

• IVF was presented as her only option, but she chose to explore inner healing and spiritual connection instead.
  

• Emotional processing, mindset work, and womb healing played a major role in restoring her health and fertility.
  

• Connecting with her spirit baby gave her reassurance, peace, and a sense of divine timing.
  

• Fertility healing isn’t one-size-fits-all—trusting your intuition and calming the nervous system are foundational.

Guest Bio:

Laetitia Felix @mindset_bodyandsoul is a certified Fertility Mindset Coach based in London, originally from France. After navigating her own challenging path to motherhood, including multiple pregnancy losses, she now supports women on similar journeys through her holistic Mind, Body, and Soul approach.

Laetitia helps women process emotional trauma, release both conscious and unconscious blocks, and reconnect with their inner wisdom to prepare for conception. Deeply passionate about this work, she brings compassion, lived experience, and powerful tools to guide women, whether they’re just starting out or healing after loss.


Links and Resources:

• Visit Laetitia’s Instagram

• Book a free discovery call via her website

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Discover The Wholesome Fertility Journey:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Leticia.

  Leatitia: Thank you so much, Michelle, for having me. I'm very honored.

  Michelle: It's a pleasure having you and I know you have like a really, uh, amazing story, long story, uh, difficult story to tell on your own fertility journey and um, and I love hearing these stories, especially when it brings you to doing the work that you are [00:02:00] doing today and helping so many other people. So I'd love for you to share your story and how you got through it and.

  Eventually conceived and had your kids.

  Leatitia: Yeah, that's, uh, that'd be my pleasure to share. Um, well, basically I, uh, I, uh, yes, it was a long journey, let's put it that way. It took me four years to conceive. Um, I didn't have any ID that would take that long. I just, uh, uh, basically I was on a pill for a very long time, uh, which was, uh. Going, looking back now, I know it was one of the, a big mistake because I then was diagnosed with adenomyosis.

  So that was we talking, uh, in my early thirties when I thought, oh, let's, uh, stop planning for, uh, what I knew I wanted, uh, all my life, uh, which is having children. Um. I didn't meet the right partner when my twenties. So, you know, it's, it's very common to [00:03:00] start really family around 30. So I thought, okay, let's stop the pill.

  Um, but then as we know now, you know, when you stop the pill you realize after if you had issues, this is when it all comes. You know, times, you know, 4, 5, 10. So basically I realized, um, long story short, I did some tests. I had very painful, heavy periods. Um, I realized I had, uh, well, I realized I did the test that told me I had adenomyosis, which is kind of.

  Sister of endometriosis and they told me at that point that fertility could be an issue. Um,

  they also gave me medication and I'm really not good with medication. I'm not good with all medical side of things. Um, so anyway, I still took them. Um, but then I thought, okay. I'm still gonna try and it might just not affect me.

  I don't know if that's what affected me, but that's just to give a bit of idea of what was in the background when [00:04:00] I started. Um, and then I, um, I just thought, you know, um, I didn't know anything, anything about what conception. I mean, now I know how. It's so much more than just, uh, the sperm meat, the egg, and especially for any woman out there, you know, um, going through, um, fertility issues, we know that, um, it's, it's so much more complex.

  Uh, you need to create really the right environment. So I can talk about that after. But basically at the time I just thought, you know, I'll give you a try. And actually we get pregnant very easily within six months. Um, so, um. At that point I was 34, I think, or 35. Uh, and everything was very happy days. You know, I made the special declare, um, announcement to my partner on his birthday.

  Everything was amazing. Uh, but, uh, I suffered for my first ectopic pregnancy. So, uh, I found that maybe a [00:05:00] week or two weeks after when I started to bleed and. That's when the story really started to get complicated. So altogether I had three ectopic throughout the four years, and I had one early, uh, early loss.

  Um, so I won't go through all of them, but basically it's pretty much every year I had a loss. Um, I, after the second loss, that's when I started to do all the tests. Um. Um, mentioned also the ectopic pregnancy is very dangerous. So when it happened, thankfully I managed to keep my, uh, fertility tube, my fertility, uh, sorry, my fallopian tubes.

  Um, but I was treated with medication and that also had a knock on effect on my health. Um, so as if it wasn't bad enough to have suffered a loss, also my health suffered. Um, the medication is very, very strong and I had to have two dosage. Um, I think they call it, uh, it's like a [00:06:00] chemo treatment actually.

  It kills all your cells. Um, so you can just imagine. And after that, the knock on effect was, uh, gut health issues, um, mental. I suppose anxiety, panic attacks, like mental issues. Um, I also suffered like skin issues. I found that after

  that. Sorry.

  Michelle: That's a very strong

  Leatitia: Yeah, it's very strong. I mean, it depletes you from all your folates, you know, inside your body.

  But I don't think it's just that. I think it's so much more. Um, if you imagine you kill all your good back, you know, you talk a lot about the gut health, so obviously, you know, uh. It, it's, it's, it's got all this effect on your health, but also on your conception, on your fertility health. So this is, um, it, it actually got worse from worse.

  And then after my first loss or my second loss, sorry, the second was in the ectopic, was an early misca, early, [00:07:00] um, chemical pregnancy. Um, um, that's when I started to really look into my symptoms and thought, okay, uh. I started to look into naturopathy and acupuncture and uh, you know, to all the women out there, I can only highly, I know you talk about that a lot, but I can only highly recommend.

  I mean, it goes hand in hand to me, the importance of the gut health and on, you know, the overall health of your body. Um, not just. Not just the supplement we take for, for fertility, but everything around the digestion, around, uh, the blood flow, all of that. So, uh, it really helped me, but, uh, clearly it wasn't enough, um, because then I suffered the Novec topic and when I started to do all the medical tests, you know, um, everything came back pretty normal, apart from the fact that they said my egg reserve was low.

  Um, they said that, um, I was approaching 40, so the only option for me [00:08:00] would be IVF. Um, and I have nothing against IVF, but I just don't like how it's thrown at the only option. We were actually looking at. Anything else they never said. Oh. Food is very important. You know, food, food is very like important into your fertility, um, your mental health, your emotions, your mindset, everything that are now, no, none of none of the doctors would talk about that.

  So, um, I didn't go for IVF, uh, because. Um, it didn't feel right to me at the time, and also I was told that you had more chances of having ectopic. So I thought, well, you know, um, I don't see how, and, you know, I think like you have to prepare yourself mentally to do that, and I, I thought it would be at some point, maybe a plan B, but I was really trying to find the root of the issues also, although I was told it's unexplained, you know, that, that big thing.

  Michelle: With IVF more chances for [00:09:00] ectopic

  Leatitia: Yes. That's what they told me when I went for IVF. Um, um, you know, one of those meeting to, to discuss it with the clinic. Uh, they said the,

  Michelle: That's strange.

  Leatitia: yeah.

  Michelle: 'cause they usually put it into, they, they implant it. It's actually, IVF started out to say, uh, the reason why it started was really for people who didn't have fallopian tubes because they would, um, transfer it right into the uterus. So I've never heard anything about. Ectopic pregnancy with

  Leatitia: Yeah, I suppose like ectopic is not just a fallopian tube though. Um, it, it's outside of the womb, but it's, it doesn't have to be just a fallopian tube. Uh, but they, they told me the, the, I, I don't have the exact numbers, but at the time they gave me the, uh. The rates of, you know, um, ectopic with the IVF treatments.

  Maybe that's not the exactly accurate thing. But anyway, he didn't convince me at the time,

  so I was like that along [00:10:00] with all the medication and everything to take. I thought, okay. Um, and also I didn't have any medical, um, you know, medical. Uh, specific issue. I had an unex unexplained diagnosis. So to me, uh, I felt that it was more to it, but that wasn't

  Michelle: But that's so strange too to me, um, because you, you had adenomyosis,

  Leatitia: I had that.

  Uh,

  Michelle: an explanation.

  Leatitia: yeah, it isn't inflammation. You're right. But the, when I did all the testing in terms of my hormones, my tubes wear tested, um, my, um. The, the egg reserve was low. Um, but that's what they came up, you know, they said, well, you, you can't get pregnant. That was the answer as well. Well, you can get pregnant as you get pregnant four times.

  Um, well, not four times. At the time it was twice. Um, so there's no reason why you can't get pregnant. There's no, nothing we can do for the ectopic. Um, so [00:11:00] let alone when I had three I was like, well, surely, uh, and it's always been on the left side as well when you look more on the spiritual side, you know, the feminine side.

  So I don't know if that's anything to do with that, but obviously dig more into it. I also sp spoke to a baby spirit com, you know, um, person that spoke to the baby spirit, and I learned so much more about the divine timing and things like that.

  Michelle: Oh, so talk to us about all of it. Don't, don't leave anything out. 'cause that's very

  Leatitia: Um, well, when I, when I did, when I went through those losses, I, um, obviously as I said, I did the physical side. All my symptoms were gone in terms of like my skin issue, my all of a sudden eczema, my asthma that came out of nowhere. After the di, the drugs, the, the digestion issue, all of that was cleared. So I was, you know, in a good place physically, but, um, I.

  As I said, I had another topic and then that's when I, during that time, I also turned to Angelic Raiki. I came across that, you know, the [00:12:00] universe got funny way of showing things. I kept hearing Raiki Raiki. I was like, what is Raiki? Um, and long story short, I came, you know, I met my healer now that I've known for over 10 years, um, who trained into Angelic, and I start looking into this.

  I always believe in something more than you know. Um. Uh, you know, the, the universe and all of the, the spiritual side. Um, but that really like helped me as well to feel, uh, also I lost my mom before I went through all of these fertility issues, so, you know.

  Thank you. So I felt like I had kind of a spiritual awakening at the time.

  Um, and so when I turn to, um, baby spirit, um, communi, I dunno how you call them, but the, you know, suppose,

  Michelle: Spirit,

  Leatitia: yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah. Spirit, baby, communication and medium.

  Leatitia: I dunno how you call them. Mediums, I suppose. Um,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Leatitia: it wasn't, it wasn't something that was woohoo for me. For me that [00:13:00] was a normal, natural thing. I just wanted to know more. So I thought is, is there any other way that I can actually understand what's coming up? What's coming up in terms of the baby spirits?

  So what I was told at the time was that the first loss wasn't. The baby, the soul of the baby was never meant to come to earth. It was meant to help me grow spiritually. And um, so it was part of my path basically. It was growth. And I suppose with time as well, I suppose I realized that all this journey, all, it's very hard to understand once you are in it.

  Wasn't ha wasn't happening to me, it was happening for me, um, in a way that. That helped me to understand about, you know, as I said, nutrition, it changed my way of doing, my mind, my mindset. I changed how I learn about all the mindset stuff, so. So that was part of it. And [00:14:00] then I also spoke to my, my daughter that now I have, um, with me, and that was, that was part of the losses as well.

  And she said I wasn't ready yet. And also it was about her, she was meant to come at a specific time and it was not yet her time. Um, but it was, you know, reassurance within that for me because I was like, I'm not going crazy. I am gonna become a mom. My baby's out there. It's just that.

  When it happens, you've got so much fear and you're like, I've always known deep down I'm gonna be a mom.

  This is like something I've always, and also when I lost my mom, I was like, need to have that bond with, I always believed that be having a daughter, a daughter as well. That's, you know, and. It's like I need to have that same bond I had with my mom and I, I just can't accept that. I'm not gonna have one.

  It was so ingrained inside me. So when that happened, I thought, I'm not completely crazy then it is happening. It's just, I didn't understand [00:15:00] why I had to go through all of that, and I guess it gave me some kind of, I can't say closure, but like explanation.

  Michelle: Like hope also.

  Leatitia: Yeah. Um, I wish I knew it before in a way. 'cause I was like, well, when you are in that spiral, you just, you know, my mistake going through all the f losses is that I never stopped.

  I always wanted to keep going. I'm kind of that person. I need to find solution, I need to keep going. And so I never grieved, I suppose I never, uh, until I, I came to the fourth loss and that's when I think I had a. I had a, I had a moment where I thought, okay, I have to stop everything. Um, so going through those losses, coming to the third ectopic, I remember being in that, in that hospital corridor and I was very lucky because those drugs only happened the first time.

  And then I know some women go from like, [00:16:00] um. Tube ruptures and they have to go for surgery, and it, it can be very life threatening. So I'm very blessed that I didn't have that and my fallopian chip remained, and I had to go through expectant management on the la the, the next ectopic, which means you let your body just process the loss and, and, you know, um, remove the pregnancy basically.

  Um. But after the third one, the doctor in the hospital said, okay, I've got a surgery in half an hour. Look, his watch, uh, let's go and remove your tube. And I was a bit shocked because my, uh, hc my hormone levels were really low. And, and so when it's that almost, almost non-existent, um, you technically not in danger or anything, so you supposed to do expectant management.

  So I was like, why do I have to do that? And his answer was very [00:17:00] uncompassionate was, well, you've had free ectopic. How many more do you want? And I was,

  yeah. Um, that was shocking to me. 'cause I was like, that's not really a way for me to convince me to do it, or even to show me compassion. I'm going through a loss.

  Um, but he was exactly his words. I mean, it's stuck in my mind. And I said, listen. I've asked the question in a way I took back my control because I was giving my power away through all those years. And I, I was so happy to take bit back my control and say, listen, is my health in danger? Is any, you know, what are the reason for doing that?

  And he said this to, to prevent another topic. And I'm like, okay, I need to take the night to think about this. Um, which I did. And he said, well, we need to do it while you're going through it because you can't, we can't remove your tube after. Again, I dunno if that's true, but that was the answer

  Michelle: That makes no sense to me.

  Leatitia: I.

  Michelle: That's crazy.

  Leatitia: Me neither but us.

  It was really [00:18:00] his answer. He said, we have to do it while you're going through the next few days. We can't do it whilst you don't have, you know, pregnant anymore. So I'm like, okay. Um, anyway, talk to work with my partner. And I really followed my gut on that one. I, and this is what was the part, the kind of the moment where I decided, okay, I need to trust myself again.

  Um, and I decided not to do it. I said to my partner, maybe we'll talk about IVF, maybe we'll do something else. But for now I think we need to give you one more shot. And long story short, again, the following year, the exact same month, I believe, yeah, the exact same month, I fell naturally pregnant on the left.

  Same tube that was. Going to be removed, which is my left tube. I didn't do anything else physically from the third ectopic to the natural pregnancy. Uh, except from then working a lot on my mindset, on my energy, and on the emotion processing, which this is what I've learned and [00:19:00] now to teach my clients. Um, and so yeah, so after that, that loss and that talk with the doctor and not doing it, uh, we decided to take a break. And that's what I mean by take back my power suppose. And, and also just stopping the race. I felt like I was on a race on the

  forget marathon. It was like, you know, and I was, I was paralleling out of control in terms of who I was. Um, in terms of like, well, social life didn't exist anymore. My partner, my relationship was going.

  Just me being cry, either crying or being completely obsessive or, you know, just talk about, it was just all we talked about, as I'm sure a lot of women can relate, was conception, uh, and stress. And my body was in complete fear. Um, fight or flight mode, like survival, [00:20:00] basically. So I said, if we are gonna give you one more try, um, I wanna give it my best shot.

  And I can't carry on that way because if a novel loss happened, I don't know where I will be at that point. So we need to get back to ourselves. And

  that's what we did. Yeah.

  Michelle: So that was when you took the year off and then you conceived

  Leatitia: Yes. Uh, I mean, it was always trying naturally anyway, but we took about. Um, so, so I got pregnant in, in, in October. Uh, and the loss, the previous loss was also October, so we took, we started again as I think, yeah, we started again in July. So I wouldn't say it was a year, but yeah, nine months approximately to completely switch off from conception.

  And I'm talking, not even trying, purposely not talking about it, but come back to the basics, which was joy. Connection, self love, but also so much emotional [00:21:00] processing because

  you know when you stop and you're like, this is when everything comes back, and you're like, actually I never, I didn't stop. I didn't want to, um, face those emotions and I didn't want to because I, if I would, I wouldn't be strong enough and I wouldn't be able to carry on.

  So I had to carry on. Um, yeah, but I've learned that he. It's not about, it's not about not slowing down. It's not about perfection or, or, or like being strong. It's actually about processing as well. And, and let your body, your mind, process everything, uh, in order to be actually stronger in, in that sense.

  What I mean by S strong is give your body the best chance to thrive. Um, you know, so. Yeah.

  Michelle: The way I see it is we need to digest emotions just like we digest food, and [00:22:00] if we don't fully digest it, it sits there. It really sits there and it drains our energy. Like overall, um, did you feel, did you, how, how did you feel that it was a left side tube? Would, did you feel like ovulation on the left side

  Leatitia: Yeah, they told me. So every

  time, yeah, I do feel it, to be honest, even to this day now, for some reason it's something about the left side. I always ovulate and I do feel the sensation. Uh, but even though as you get, uh, yeah, they're able to say that every single time. So. I would, once you have one ectopic, you have to go for, for, for your test, for your scan, interest scan around seven, eight weeks.

  And they're always able to say you've ovulate, you've conceived from that side.

  Um, so at that time I didn't.

  Michelle: That's

  Leatitia: Yeah, I didn't always know at the time. I didn't always feel it, but now I must say I do. I do feel the physical sensation of the left side, which is [00:23:00] very funny. I dunno if there's a spiritual, there was a, there was another side to it.

  Then why Is it always on the left or is it just I always ovulate on the left.

  Michelle: It's that yin um, that yin energy, which it seems kind of like a, sometimes the universe gives you hints and your body gives you hints on what it is that you need to focus on. And it really is symbolic. It's kind of like this reflection of what's happening not just in your body, but also your psyche. And I think it's just really interesting.

  Uh, I always talk about. How being in the fight or flight really shuts down creativity. It shuts down regeneration. It shuts down joy. I mean, 'cause you can't afford to do anything. You're kind of on backup reserves and it's like, uh, everything has to shut down. Nothing else can matter at this moment. And to have that state become chronic is extremely taxing on the

  Leatitia: Yeah. And it's, I was [00:24:00] very much in my masculine side, you know, having to be productive, having to tick off the box, what's next? What did I not try yet? What would the next thing I can try, you know, that, that kind of mental state, um, as well as the despair and the sadness and everything. Um, but yeah, you're right.

  It's, it's then opened up so much for me. I mean, don't get me right. Don't get me wrong, it's not easy, but for me,

  Michelle: Yeah. It's

  Leatitia: it, it's very, that's what people actually. Sometime avoid it. But for me, feeling is part of healing. And if you don't feel your emotions, I, I practice now, you know, EFT tapping, which helps me, I. A lot.

  I mean, I've now, uh, trained into it and I, I was the first skeptical. Um, it's, it's one method. Uh, you know, you could work for some people in the sense that if you believe it, but for me, it works a hundred percent with everyone I, I do it with. But what I like about it is that it gives you that, say, that [00:25:00] space where you actually.

  Um, bring awareness to that emotion. You know, you can even talk to your emotions. You know, you see where it's left in your body and as it starts to shift, you, it moves from like being, being in your chest to your throat or anywhere. And this is when you really, even to client that don't especially know about it, they realize that it's all energy and it all really.

  If you leave it, as we said, it just will stay stuck in your, in your body and it creates all kind of things. Um. And also how much can you, how much can you keep up? Can you, can you keep in as well, you know, eventually, uh, it's floating because it's too much that you've held in all this time. You know, if you've got one loss, two loss, or any other traumatic experience, to be honest, um, I think for me, the key, it's very, to very much to slow down and process, um, take the time and.[00:26:00]

  Yeah, it's, it's conflictual when it comes to conception because we are in one side wanting to hurry and be pregnant and try again. Um, but on the other side, funny enough, slowing down is beneficial for us. Um, that's why I believe it anyway.

  Michelle: It absolutely is. I think it's just beneficial overall. You know, you can kind of like take whatever it is and kind of insert, you know, the topic. And the topic can be many different things. And, and in this case we're talking

  about fertility, but there's many different topics. Um, sometimes it's relationships, sometimes.

  It's jobs or you know, obviously jobs are not as important, but sometimes it is relationship. I mean, when you're younger and you're trying to meet your partner, it could be also the

  center focus. And so sometimes over trying can get in the way of that flow and that natural. Ability to connect with [00:27:00] or align with who is right for you.

  So it's kind of like that flow in general in life. It blankets on everything ultimately. And it's kind of like that trust and that knowing. 'cause as soon as we shut down, we also shut down our ability to connect with our wisdom and our

  inner guide. And so that's incredibly important and it's a huge asset to the

  Leatitia: Yeah, for me a hundred percent that, I mean, you know, you're speaking my mind, but it's, um, that inner connection, that's the, that's one of the first thing I wanna teach the woman I speak to, but also that I went through myself and as you said. What I like about, in a way, and what I said earlier about this happening for me is because everything I've learned, you know, whether it is how I eat, whether it is what I put in my body, the way you nourish your mind and nourish your body with your thoughts, your belief, everything, whether your energy, your processing emotion, all of that, it's for [00:28:00] lifetime.

  You know, it's something that I've learned for everything, even as obviously as a mom as well as we know motherhood is another story, but it's like, it, it, it's for everything. And that's what I wanna teach my child as well. You know, we don't, we don't learn about mindset or. Emotions, uh, about nervous system.

  Maybe we learn in some places, but I've not learned that school. So, uh, it's a lifetime thing. And, and that inner wisdom, it's definitely also something, I mean, um, I haven't talked about that, but also worked with my womb during that

  time. Those nine months, um, reconnected to my womb, uh, but also.

  Michelle: So interesting that you took nine months off.

  Leatitia: Yeah, isn't it?

  And that actually, I never thought about that. Um, yeah. So many little signs, but yeah. The womb

  healing.

  Michelle: like a rebirthing of your own energy.

  Leatitia: Yeah, it is. Um, um, and um, the womb [00:29:00] healing was also very powerful. I mean, as women, we store so much. and, and trauma and even ancestral things inside our womb. And that healing process was very, uh, transformative as well.

  Very powerful. Um, so yeah. But uh, coming back to what you said, the inner wisdom, we get so much information out there, don't we, in terms of facility? I know it's, it applies to everything, but in this case we're talking about that. So like, do this, do that, try this, uh, or, and, and, and we all are unique. We are.

  It is no one size fits all. So when you, if you don't come back to inner wisdom, then you just, in a way. You don't know what's right for you, but when you come back to your inner knowing, your, your, your power, and you will know your, you know, that gut feeling that that thing that, that soul telling you, what is that [00:30:00] is right for you, your inner, your, your, your own soul, basically your higher self or however you want to call it.

  But for me, that's how I call it. Um, that's where you should even start. Right? And that's why then it, it, you know, when I realized and when I got pregnant a year later and I. From that same tube, I was like, oh my God, I should never really, um, ever, um, doubt my gut feeling, you know? And I know the fear and everything else, or the, or the noise around us, um, can, can cause that to doubt it.

  Uh, and the fear specifically, I think the fear is, is very something that can do that. But it's about teaching ourself to go back within, isn't it? And um, yeah. That is so important, the inner wisdom, because then you can filter things. You don't have to try the whole everything single thing in the world.

  You try what your body, your own body needs or what it is that you need right now. Um, yeah, I think that's important.[00:31:00]

  Michelle: Well, I, I always say this is kind of like something that I've always felt, and it's kind of, I guess like something that I find myself repeating is that all roads lead to the light. And sometimes we can do a huge detour and resist, resist, resist, and we're just gonna push back that road. That leads to the light.

  I look at the vessels, the blood vessels, all of them lead to the heart. Eventually it all leads the, the blood back to the heart. Some of them are further out and some of 'em are more direct, and it's the same kind of thing with us. I think that our bodies are such a, a great reflection of just our lives and how things work, and we can either flow with it and allow it.

  Relax into it, and then that will actually get us there faster, or we can fight it and slow it down, and that will take a little longer. It'll, but it'll eventually still lead to our personal growth and our journey and [00:32:00] ultimately, like our, our dreams or our calling, I call it a calling because it's something that you are called to do and you know that it's there.

  You had mentioned before, which I thought was really powerful, that you knew you were meant to be a mother. You felt it, and I don't think that feeling is a random thing. I think it's there for a reason. I think that that is your highest self pointing you to a way that you're actually meant

  to

  Leatitia: Yeah, no, I, I a hundred percent believe, and you know what I, I, when, and then I start connecting with my daughter, um, uh, way before she was born, well, way before, like, obviously during that time. Um, and it, it's, it's incredible because it, it just proved to me that it was real, you know? Um. Yeah, that gut feeling that that knowing I would be a mom, that was more than just wishing, honestly, this was ingrained inside me from like a long time ago.

  The fact that I always, even like I used to tell, I used to tell my friend, I'm gonna have a daughter first. I don't know why, don't ask me. [00:33:00] But I know, and I still think now I'm 45 and I still think I'm gonna have a boy coming up and I'm, you know, I'm putting everything in place for him to come. But I've been connecting with my daughter before that.

  And the funny is, um. You know, kids, uh, children these days are very, very open. They, they're very, and and, um, believe it or not, she, she told me one day when she was three or 4-year-old, three or four, I think, um, uh, she described me exactly, she described me exactly when we used to meet in my meditation, and I used to connect with her as a baby soul.

  Um. It was her, with her with another, with a little boy that always visualized them two together. And um, so I used to go always in that safe space and I learned how to connect with the baby spirits, basically. But the funny thing was, one day she said at the table, you remember mommy, when we used to go on that swing, uh, with [00:34:00] my baby brother?

  And um,

  Michelle: Oh my God, I got the chills.

  Leatitia: like. Um, you went to the nursery, did you have a friend or something? You know, I, I tried every, every angle that she could mean, you know, and she was speaking well, it's just that I was like, I don't understand what she. Because it can't be that. And she described it so much. Um, and then I said, but you don't have a, you don't have a younger brother.

  Uh, and she said, but it was, and then I said, well, was daddy with us? No, it was just us three. You remember? But you know, it was crazy. And then she said, but it was a dream. Mommy, you remember a dream? And then she started talking about something random and completely switched the conversation. And I was like, hold on, hold on.

  Can we go back to this?

  And we're so like open. And she also said randomly one day to us, to me and my partner, she said, I'm the one who choose you as my parents. [00:35:00] And you know, when it, it's not something that you have taught her or you've taught her, you, you know, you know, how does she come up with this stuff?

  It's crazy to me. It's not crazy because I believe it, but it's just confirming what you know. But it's kind of weird to hear it from the child's, you know, mouth and it's like, wow.

  Michelle: Because you usually know it on a, a very innate personal sense. It's more of a sense. You usually don't see it, um, kind of in the material world as much. It's like, you know, sometimes the knowing can be something that is there but is not typically in our world seen right there in front

  Leatitia: Which is incredible to see it, isn't it? To, to hear it and to be having that confirmation. So, um, but yeah, just to say that, yeah, that is very real too. And, and as much as we know, um, conception is so much more than, as we said, as I said earlier. You know, the sperm in the egg, you know, it's so many different aspects, the [00:36:00] right environment for your mind, for your, for your body and everything.

  But it's also about divine timing and it's also about, you know, is this, is, is the journey of your own soul is your journey of your partner. It is, it's free souls involved in this process. So we have to remember that it's, it's, it's not just us as well. Um,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  It's too sacred for a checklist, you know? And I think that it, it's become such a checklist, but it, it's too sacred. It, it has to have another element. I. Added and sprinkled in to the

  journey than just the physical, like what to eat, what you know it, it's the same thing when you're together with a partner that you love, and if you make it a checklist to the finish line and you're not spending time with a romance, the energy that can

  connection and making it all physical, to me, it's just another [00:37:00] example

  Leatitia: Yeah. No, I, I agree. Yeah. It's a, it's a whole holistic, that's how the best way holistic process, but in really every sense of the term. Um, and, uh, yeah. And yeah, I think, I think it's important to remember that, but also to give our self-compassion, uh, 'cause we know as a woman we, we just blame ourselves so much.

  What we're doing wrong, what we didn't do right. What, what's happened. But, um, yeah. It's about also coming back to self-love, compassion, and understanding. There's more to it than just what, you know. We can do things of course, and we, but it's, it's, um. I also hate the fact that it becomes very medical. You know, as soon as you become this, this, you have this, um, diagnosis, it becomes very medical and you forget about, well, you don't forget, but you are not really, um, told about the holistic, the holistic [00:38:00] part of it, and.

  You get lost into that process sometimes. So I think that's why, for me, I also created, um, what I've created to help other woman because I, I want them to come back to themself and it's, it's, it's not just, it is fertility, of course, and we want to get ultimately to, for them to get pregnant and keep the pregnancy, but it's also about coming back to themself.

  You know, uh, and even if you are doing medical, it's not about, it's not about not doing IVF or not doing medical. I, I, I absolutely, um, understand that you have to do it sometimes. Um, it's about you can combine both, you know,

  Michelle: Yes, a

  Leatitia: can, you can,

  Michelle: I, I say the same

  Leatitia: you can prepare the,

  Michelle: and, the medical's there. It's amazing. It could be a miraculous to have the medical

  Leatitia: Yeah. Yeah, you can prepare. You know, it's about preparing the soul, isn't it?

  The environment for your pregnancy to thrive. [00:39:00] Um, or your,

  or your,

  Michelle: You could work 'em both

  Leatitia: sorry.

  Michelle: to support one another. A hundred

  Leatitia: yeah, yeah. Exactly. And it's about, so for me, yeah, it's whether you try naturally or medically, it's about coming also back to everything, the holistic process. Yeah.

  Michelle: For sure, and I find it really interesting that you talked about meditation, how that ultimately is how you connected with your daughter. It's through meditation. We cannot connect like effectively with our. Higher selves without getting quiet. We need to get quiet in order to do that because our highest selves are not gonna be found outside of us,

  Leatitia: exactly.

  Michelle: and we're always gonna be distracted when we're focused on the outside and sometimes kind of leaving that, even if it's for five, 10 minutes, preferably 20 and connecting inwards, that's when you can [00:40:00] really connect.

  And interestingly enough. I believe that I manifested really a lot of my life and there were like things that I manifested that were like pretty insane. Even my husband, I described him like, and a month later I

  met him, but described his personality and I told people about it and a lot of people did the same thing.

  They're like, it's not working for me. And then I look back and I finally realized. Kind of the secret ingredient that I sprinkled in at the time, which was I started meditating around that time. And what I think happens is you meditation can prime your nervous system, which is really a system of information and connection and information to and from.

  So from within you out to the universe, from the universe out inside to you through wisdom, guidance, alignment, and. It's not easy to manifest if you're not in that state of [00:41:00] alignment and your nervous system is not receptive. This kind of like highway of information is not receptive and primed in a balanced state.

  And so when you talked about how you connected with your daughter. It was like you went into meditation, you got people talk about downloads all the time, like that's when you're opening yourself or you're giving yourself that opportunity to connect with this divine energy.

  Leatitia: a hundred percent. And, um, I agree with you. I, for me, visualization is a big part of what I do for myself for, for, again, for the woman I help. Um, but you. I actually read a book. I'm reading a book about visualize, it's called visualization, and I love it. I've always been about law of attraction and, and, and, and all of that manifestation.

  And, um, but visualization. It says in that book exactly what you've said. Um, one work, if you've got busy mind, I mean, it doesn't mean that you, you can't have [00:42:00] thoughts, but it's about calm, nervous system first. Um, so breathing meditation, you know, and. Just stop for a second. Just go inwards. Um. I think actually even go sometime when you stop as well.

  It also help with the emotion healing, isn't it? I, I couldn't be processing emotion if I'm just like going around and doing all those things and be like, so no, you've gotta stop. So, but the same thing for visualization or for meditation, like when I, I was doing the connection, uh, absolutely right. First of all, I would always first calm my nervous system.

  Breathe, be in the moment. Because if you could be on the, on high alerts, you know, on thing, it's very hard. You, you, my connection wouldn't work. I couldn't visualize anything. It just doesn't work for me. Um, but visualization, it's, it's, uh, it's a whole different again, thing, but it's, it's so, it's so powerful.

  For me, it's, um, I do hypnosis as well, and, [00:43:00] uh, I think it helps as well the mind to settle. Um, but it's very powerful. Um, you know, the brain as you know, it doesn't know what's, what's, what's real and what's not real. So the more you feed, you know, I've, I've manifested the same as you said about your partner.

  I did the same with mine. Uh, uh, and I believe I manifested so much in my life. Um. But I know it's not always easy. I'm not saying it's easy. You know when you go through that time of doubts and also all the noise, everything that you've been told, and I think that's why it's so important to. For me, when I, I, I talk about mindset.

  It's not about being positive, it's not about not being stressed, it's not about being perfect. You can neither be, you can't do any of it, none of that. It's okay to be stressed and it's normal, it's human. Um, affection doesn't exist. Um, but it's about getting the right tool to [00:44:00] learn, you know, learning how to, um.

  Treat your mind, but also nourish your thoughts. So it's, it's about, for me, bigot thoughts are gonna happen, but what can you do to introduce new thoughts? What can you do to be more in control of those thoughts and actually reframe some of them, you know?

  Um, I think that's very important, but. Yeah, I'm saying that because we talk about, yeah, it's all good to say, oh yeah, do that, do that, visualize and that, and of course you're gonna have those emotional, crazy moments.

  Um, it's all gonna happen, but you can, if you allow time each day, you know, okay, let's, let's do this strategy where you are not gonna think about. The worst thing that can happen, just focus on visualizing, breathing, calming the nervous system. Allow maybe even, even if it's 15 minutes a day, just for this 15 minutes to try [00:45:00] to raise your vibration and be like, what can I do that actually shifts my mood today?

  Is it listening to my best song track? Is it going in nature? So it's about living space in a day to actually not do the, the same thing over and over again, which is thinking or even like go on Facebook or somewhere and, and just look at the worst story that can happen because actually it fits your mind with all those things.

  And then, um. Yeah, that, that, that is also, um, mindset nourish, bad nourishment, if I can call it that way. Um,

  I dunno if I'm making myself clear, but

  yeah.

  Michelle: yeah.

  and it is, I find sometimes it could be a difficult topic to talk about because it is so abstract and words are a little more analytical. So to try to bridge that, A lot of times when people have mystical experiences, one of the most frustration that they, uh. Like coming across as that they can't [00:46:00] get an out.

  Clearly they can't verbalize it, that these experiences are so vast that it's hard to really describe. But I think that that's why it's so important to really sit there and become with it and like kind of be with it and feel it and experience it. I find. For me, what's always worked is really non-resistance.

  Even things that happen that you don't like to just be with it and to look at it in a more neutral light because it's true. A lot of many teachers have have said this, that most of events in life are actually more neutral than we make in make them to be because we assign meaning to

  things. And that's why you'll tend, you'll find 10 different people and you'll find 10 different meanings to the same exact circumstance.

  Leatitia: Yeah, no, I agree. Um, yeah, it's such a, it's such a complex [00:47:00] journey, but I think it's, um, you know, every little helps, but it is one step at a time as well, you know? Um,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Leatitia: and, uh, when I, I think the, the. What I don't like as well is that when we talk about mindset or when we talk about, you know, mindset with fertility, um, it's, it's often, um, it's often, um, talk about like. You have to be positive or, or you know, it, it's not really explained in, in that way. That why is it actually in that book? Visualize, they talk about mindset and they said, oh, we talk about looking after our body, but the mind is half of our health, so why are we not really looking into it and, and caring for it as as much?

  Um. But I think when it comes to fertility, for me mindset, just want to say that it's not just being positive. It's, it's about, uh, it's, it's the lens for [00:48:00] which we see our reality. And the way we fit it is like our belief. It is like our stories, our experience, it's our, um, identity. It's, it's the values is the, you know, that's what it's, it's, it's the thoughts that we do.

  That's the behaviors. Um, it's all linked, isn't it? The way you think, the way you feel, the way you act there, the, the behavior. So, um, yeah, for me it's so important to, to, to look at that as well, um, and to not think it's not, it's not just about being, know, positive or anything like that. So, um, that's.

  Michelle: Yeah, and I think processing emotions um, means you have to validate your emotions and kind of validate your experience in that moment. And so allowing that, I think is, is a huge part of the process.

  Leatitia: Yeah. Yeah. [00:49:00] Um, yeah, it definitely is. I didn't talk about acupuncture as well. I know you do acupuncture. I, that's also something that I thought was very helpful for me. Uh, acupuncture. Um, but yeah. If I can, uh, if I can advise anything, I would say, um, definitely start going back within and, and, and allow some time to go back within and just calm the nervous system I.

  And, you know, it's about, and it's not just, as I said, one size fits all. It's about what fits what is right for you. You know, I, when I, when I do my, um, when I work with my clients, I never, it, it's, it's not, it's always tailored to the, to the person. Some person might hate journaling, some person actually not good at doing hypnosis for too long.

  Some person are not good at visualizing. So it's really about what works for you. Um. To really help your nervous system and your [00:50:00] mindset and the way you are gonna show up every day.

  Michelle: Absolutely. Um, so if people are hearing this and they wanna find you, how can they find you?

  Leatitia: Yeah. So, uh, they can email me. I mean, I'm sure you would leave my, you probably leave my details there, so.

  Michelle: Yes. All your information's gonna be in the episode

  Leatitia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, it's mindset, body and soul mindset. Body and soul for the Instagram. So, uh, you can contact me on Instagram. You can, uh, check my website also. Um, I have three discovery call. Happy to discuss, see how I can help.

  See if we fit, of course. 'cause it's a two way street. Uh, see if anything that I say resonates. Um, I help women that basically, I mean, usually women, um, either they try everything and medically nothing is wrong. So it's an explained, uh, a lot of times and they want to see what else they can do. So we really go, [00:51:00] um.

  We go with the whole part. So I always advise for the, for the body side of it, which means that the nourishment, the, the, you know, uh, the gut health, the acupuncture, you know, this is something that would always advise. That's not my special specialty. But what I do is I make sure that we, we treat everything in the body, um, and we look at the mindset.

  We look at the emotion, we look at the inner child, we look at the, uh, energy, we look at the wo healing. Um. We really look at self-love, compassion, and all of that. So yeah, I help women, I do bundles, I do, uh, longer programs and, uh, it's also very close to my heart to help women after loss. So I have also a program after loss and also pregnancy.

  Um, once you've had loss or pregnancy after loss or pregnancy after, uh, birth trauma. There's also something like that. So, but yeah. Um, happy to go on the discovery call and answer any questions.[00:52:00]

  Michelle: Wonderful. Leticia, this is a great conversation and thank you so much for sharing your journey and really sharing your wisdom and all of the wisdom that you've, uh, accumulated throughout this

  journey. So thank you so

  much.

  Leatitia: you so much.

  [00:53:00]

Ep 346 “Unexplained Infertility” Might Not Be What You Think

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into the topic of unexplained infertility, a term often given when standard fertility tests show “normal” results, yet conception still isn’t happening. I share how Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), functional testing, and a deeper mind-body approach can offer clarity where conventional medicine falls short.

We’ll explore key overlooked areas such as egg and sperm quality, thyroid health, gut imbalances, endocrine disruptors, and the vital role of nervous system regulation. Whether you’re newly diagnosed or years into your fertility journey, this episode will empower you with insights that go far beyond the typical lab work.


Key Takeaways: 

• TCM can detect subtle imbalances long before they appear in clinical tests.

• Factors like egg quality, sperm DNA fragmentation, endometrial inflammation, and thyroid health are frequently missed.

• Nervous system regulation and stress support are essential but often overlooked in fertility care.

• Gut health and exposure to endocrine disruptors significantly impact hormonal and reproductive function. 
  
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: if you've been told that your labs are normal, your uterus looks fine, everything is clear, all the tubes are clear, your partner's labs are normal, and that there's no further explanation to why you are not conceiving. You might have been given the diagnosis of unexplained infertility.

  So in Western or conventional medicine, unexplained infertility is a diagnosis of exclusion and typically it is given after a woman or a man gets all the testing that is needed and they look [00:02:00] at labs, they look at the uterus, they do ultrasounds, and they pretty much do all of the major workup.

  Uh, the, they consider major because not all doctors will do a thorough workup. And this is why I'll be talking about the importance of really looking into everything. But they do the workup that they standardly do in trying to see what is causing issues for couples when they're trying to conceive and when they find that nothing comes back, they may call it unexplained infertility.

  But as you might know, I have a background in Chinese medicine and we look at things before they really become clinical. So we're able to see that there's patterns and things that kind of lie beneath the surface. And so from my perspective, there's a lot more that can be unearthed [00:03:00] and there's a lot more that can be explained than meets the eye when it comes to conventional labs.

  So what happens typically if people are given the unexplained infertility diagnosis, their next step is maybe to look into IUI or any kind of a RT, which is assisted reproductive treatments. So things like I-U-I-V-F, um, or even maybe taking certain, Medicines such as Clomid or Letrozole to see if they can help get the couple pregnant.

  So the downside to that is that when people get fast tracked into other medical interventions, they may not really look into what [00:04:00] is possibly going on beneath the surface that Western or conventional medicine is not looking into. And here are a couple of things that I wanna mention that are incredibly important, but are things that are not easy to really look into and it's not really standardized to look into.

  And these are some things that functional testing can help. Then sometimes even just understanding the pattern from a Chinese medicine perspective, that can also help and really understanding what the lifestyle and really looking into the symptoms and experiences that a person feels through their menstrual cycle and many, many different things.

  So I'm gonna look into some of the testing that may not be looked at when it comes to conventional medicine and when it comes to fertility workup.[00:05:00]

  So the first thing that I wanna talk about is egg quality. So while egg quantity can be measured through things like a MH, which is anti-malaria and hormone egg quality is really difficult to measure. And one of the only ways people can. Possibly take a guess that there's an issue with egg quality is when they're going through IVF and they're seeing that the embryos are not developing correctly, or it has genetic mutations, doesn't appear to be genetically normal.

  And those are some of the things that can happen after a person goes through a more invasive treatment, such as IVF to see what the egg quality really looks like. However, many people don't know that and many people don't wanna go through IVF in order to see how the quality of their eggs are. So this is something that can oftentimes not be measured through a lot of these.

  Normalized tests and baseline tests that are [00:06:00] usually ordered by the doctors. So egg quality is something that personally, as a fertility acupuncturist, I always work on, regardless of what the person is doing, whether they're trying for IVF or they're trying naturally, it's always something top of mind, just like sperm quality is always top of mind.

  Regardless of what they're doing, because all of those things can only help. And if you are. Treating the body overall and getting the body to work more functionally like better, and increasing the qi, increasing the blood. You're automatically going to be supporting egg and sperm quality just as you are going to be supporting a more anti-aging.

  Process in the body, and those are things that you want because anti-aging really means an increased in vitality and a decrease in oxidative stress, and I will talk about that in a little bit. [00:07:00] Another thing that can be really missed is sperm, DNA fragmentation. Typically, doctors will run a semen analysis and that will look into sperm count, the sperm motility, and the sperm morphology, which is the shape of the sperm, but it also looks at volume.

  Semen and many other things, and this is a great baseline, but it does not look at the sperm DNA fragmentation, which basically reflects the sperm DNA and how it could be impacting the quality of the embryo and the ability for that embryo to flourish. Because if there's some issue with the DNA of the sperm, that will impact either.

  Implantation not to occur because it's not fertilizing correctly, or it can also impact many miscarriages. So a lot of people think that the miscarriages really are on the woman, but it [00:08:00] could be because of the sperm.

  Another thing that I often see when I have patients is that for many, many years, they try not only naturally, but also try many failed transfers once they do have the embryos. Frozen. They'll do many transfers and they keep failing and they're saying it's unexplained. However, after many years and many times that they're trying and it fails, the doctor finally decides to look into the environment of the uterus and find out that they have either an a lot of inflammation or there's some kind of inflammatory condition or an issue with a microbiome.

  So this is something that is often missed for many years and is really put off as unexplained when it is really explained. And it could be just one course of [00:09:00] antibiotics that can resolve it.

  So when that does happen and there is a lot of inflammation in the endometrium. That can cause issues with implantation and it can cause issues keeping a baby, and it can cause issues even

  with transfers as well. So those are really important factors because people can spend years going through this without even knowing that that is an issue.

  Something else I often see is when people are checking their thyroid ~~and many times they when, ~~and many times when people are going through fertility challenges, they go first to their GYN and the GYN will. Often look at the TSH just by itself and not do a full thyroid panel. They'll [00:10:00] just do a more generalized workup of their hormones.

  And what they find is that it might be sort of above what's ideal for for for fertility, but it's still considered normal. So they don't flag it as abnormal. Maybe because the GYN doesn't usually work with infertility. So oftentimes this could be missed and it can be kind of like, okay, it's. Maybe it's a three, it should be two or less, and that's not something that they really pay attention to.

  And then I've seen also a lot of times patients asking for more of a thorough. Full thyroid panel and that often is also dismissed and they have to kind of go get a second opinion in order to get it. So this is just something that I see often, and it's not to knock any doctors, it just happens because they're human and everybody has a different perspective on what they think is important.

  What I often suggest is. Go to a reproductive endocrinologist if you are going through fertility [00:11:00] challenges, even if you're not planning to do IVF, it's really because they understand they have a lens to understand the body. And to really take the thorough examination. So those are things that are really important and the thyroid is actually, it could be a very easy fix if it is just a low functioning thyroid condition.

  You need to do a lot of times is take medicine to help your thyroid function better, and that can really make the huge difference between getting pregnant and also sustaining the pregnancy. And. Just wanna mention, I'm not giving medical advice. This is all things that you wanna talk to your doctor about because your doctor knows exactly what you'll need, and they do the measurements and the right tests for it.

  But these are things that you might wanna ask.

  And if it is [00:12:00] something like Hashimoto's, you can also get medicine for that as well. But you can also look into maybe changing your diet because there are a lot of diet protocols that can help with that as well.

  Something else that I often talk about is really the nervous system. So while many times the idea of chronic stress is not something that is really flagged as an issue, ~~I. ~~It can really impact fertility health, it can impact the menstrual cycle. So chronic stress is one of the things that I even notice when people come to me and they're looking for more alternative care.

  They will eat the right things, they've done all the function, even functional testing, and they'll go through the whole list of everything. They remove endocrine disruptors. They'll really do everything on the list, but the last thing that they will focus on is the stress levels, because I think it's [00:13:00] invisible.

  It's not something that we see with our eyes. It's not something that we can often measure, but it's a state of being. So it feels a little bit more kind of under the radar and not something that most people think about. However, I do see anecdotally from my own perspective, that when people work on the nervous system and I work on it with them ~~in ~~in my clinic with acupuncture or many other ways to do this through mindset, tools, and techniques, and I do see that that has a huge impact and people do really well with it, and I've seen it also impact.

  Their ability to conceive in a much shorter time after many years of trying. So ~~I also, ~~one of the ways that I can measure it and really see it is typically they will start to feel happier. They'll start to feel more in charge, and ~~they'll be, ~~they'll be able to get back and kind of, ~~uh, ~~rebound from difficult experiences.

  So if they have the normal [00:14:00] disappointments, the two week wait, all of those things that are pretty common when people are going through the fertility journey, they feel a little bit more empowered and they can rebound from those disappointing times. Whereas when their nervous system is a little more off in the beginning, when they start to come see me, it takes them a little longer to move from one state to another.

  That kind of rebound tells you that your nervous system is a little more stronger, the vagal tone is stronger than it was. ~~Maybe when people first start. ~~Another thing that can often be missed, and I touched upon this a second ago, is endocrine disruptors. ~~So, ~~and endocrine disruptors are things that we can find everywhere ~~we can find.~~

  They're really, a lot of times chemicals or things like xenoestrogens, which mimic estrogen and confuse the hormones. So those things can be found in plastics. It can be found in chemicals and cosmetics ~~in. ~~In cleaning supplies, in materials and receipts. I mean, ~~there's like it, ~~the list goes on and on and it can be very [00:15:00] overwhelming at first, but when you realize ~~the ~~two things ~~is ~~one, how to find good resources and start to really clean out what you typically buy for more.

  Clean products, that's number one, but also two, which ~~is ~~actually should be number one, which is the most important, is to know that you're never gonna get it perfect. And that's okay. It's not about getting it perfect, but it's ~~also ~~supporting your own body's detoxification and minimizing the impact so that maybe it's not perfect, but for the most part, you are drinking out of glass or out of stainless steel and you're cleaning out your most typical.

  Ingredients to be more clean and less endocrine disruptors.

  And then this one is huge, which is gut health. ~~So ~~oftentimes when you go to conventional medicine, they're not gonna really focus on gut health when it comes to fertility. ~~Health and ~~gut health is huge [00:16:00] because it can impact inflammation in the body. ~~It ~~dysbiosis can also cause, ~~um. ~~Autoimmune conditions.

  There's a link between autoimmune conditions and gut health, but it can also cause stress. So when your gut is imbalanced, it can cause you to be in a more stressful state. And if that is the case, then it also impacts hormones. It really impacts you overall. So those are all things that are definitely important to check, and many times you're not gonna get those tests with conventional medicine.

  And while conventional medicine is amazing and it's very, very pivotal and important in your journey, you also wanna couple it with maybe other things. Chinese medicine, but also nutrition, functional nutrition, functional medicine doctors. There's many people out there that do a little bit more detailed functional tests, and those things will look at gut microbiome.

  They'll look at food sensitivities. They'll look at also your hormones throughout the day. There's something called the Dutch [00:17:00] Test, which is another one, and it's something that I offer, and these are really important because you will find details. That you'll not find in conventional testing and.

  The only thing is that it is out of pocket. So that's sort of the, you know, the drawback. But if you're already in this process, it's much better to spend money on that than to go right into IVF, which even if you do IVF, you wanna look at these things because you wanna like save your time so that you're not in a situation where you're wasting time and money and not really unearthing what's going on beneath the surface.

  So I had mentioned previously a little bit about how TCM traditional Chinese medicine views the body. We look [00:18:00] overall at patterns. So for example, somebody could be blood deficient, right? And they still don't come out as anemic, but. That person if, if that person has severe blood deficiency, that could actually show up as anemia.

  So this is something that can happen for many years chronically and can cause an end stage of anemia. So by the time it actually shows up clinically, it is a lot more further along than when we pick it up so we can pick it up way before it becomes clinical. So those are things that we detect. There are a lot more subtle.

  We can also detect subtle gut imbalances, and we can see this through behavior, through how a person feels their energy. And we can see it also by their digestion. And those are things that are a little more obvious to people is when they're feeling digestion, but they don't like digestive issues and [00:19:00] discomforts.

  That could be a little more obvious to people, but. Things that are not so obvious to people could be just energy. They can feel really fatigued and not realize why. And it can be just because their body is not absorbing the nutrients correctly and that can cause an issue with their blood and their cheek, and they might not realize that the two have any kind of connection with each other.

  So this is why typically people come to me once they have been unexplained and they don't know what else to do and they'll find a Chinese medicine physician. And I'll be honest, that was my story with my menstrual cycle. So I wasn't necessarily trying to conceive at the time, but for many years I was given the birth control pill as my only option, and I eventually found a Chinese medicine doctor who was able to resolve my.

  Irregular periods, and this is after 12 years of having the same thing. So it was really amazing that after 12 years of the same thing, having something [00:20:00] so chronic could make anybody believe that that's just the way my body is and it's always gonna be that way. However, it did resolve my issues and I was regular since then in So I know it works and this is really why I got into it myself.

  ~~Oh.~~

  So I also wanna mention, even though we spoke a little bit about sperm quality, it is really important to look into that as well. I have heard many times women getting tested and then the husband not getting tested at all, and that is wrong. You have to test both. You have to test both couples. When people are going through fertility challenges, because it takes two really to conceive.

  So it's very important that everybody sees the partnership in this and to understand that both egg and sperm are just as important, and if one has any conditions, it's going to impact the other because they need both to work. So those are really important things to consider.[00:21:00]

  And if you feel like you need a little bit more insight or help, I have a membership that has many tiers depending on where you're interested, whether it's mindset. Nervous system regulation or menstrual cycles or everything altogether, plus group coaching. All of that could be found in the episode notes,

  so be sure to check that out if you want a little extra support. And always feel free to reach out to me on Instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus. Fertility and DM me there. If you have any questions or any topics or ideas that you'd like me to cover, I [00:22:00] don't always reply right away, but I try my best to reply every single message.

  So thank you so much for tuning in and have a beautiful day. ~~I.~~

  [00:23:00]

Ep 345 Messages from the Other Side: Spirit Baby Communication With Anne-Claire Le Bihan

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by spirit baby medium Anne-Claire Le Bihan @anneclairelebihan, who guides women in connecting with the souls of their future children. With a background in midwifery and naturopathy, Anne-Claire shares how her own pregnancy journey awakened her intuitive abilities and led her to support women experiencing unexplained infertility.

Together, we dive into the messages spirit babies want to share, why they might delay incarnating, and how making space emotionally, spiritually, and even physicalyl, can open the path to conception. Anne-Claire offers practical tools for tuning into these messages, from meditation and journaling to setting intentions before sleep.

Whether you're struggling to conceive, feeling called to connect spiritually with your future child, or simply open to a deeper perspective on fertility, this episode offers a beautiful blend of soul, surrender, and hope.

Key Takeaways: 

• Making space—mentally, emotionally, and physically—is essential for welcoming in new life.
  
  

Guest Bio:

Anne-Claire Le Bihan @anneclairelebihan is a Spirit Baby Medium and Spiritual Fertility Guide who has helped hundreds of women around the world connect with their Spirit Babies and bring their dreams of motherhood to life. Through her Bring Your Spirit Baby Home program, private sessions, and meditations, Anne-Claire guides women to clear emotional and energetic blocks, deepen their trust, and align their body, mind, and spirit for conception. Blending intuition with grounded spiritual tools, her mission is to empower women to feel supported, connected, and truly held on their journey to motherhood.


Links and Resources:

• Visit Anne-Claire’s website  

• Follow Anne-Claire on Instagram

• Receive Free Spirit Baby Meditation

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Discover The Wholesome Fertility Journey:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast and Claire.

  Anne-Claire: Thank you for having me, Michelle. Really nice to be here today.

  Michelle Oravitz: So before we got started, we had some kind of technical difficulty and I, I have to say, it made me think about like a, a spirit communication where. Where one per when the spirit can see you and you can't see the spirit. And that [00:02:00] was basically what was happening. And I feel like it was like an interesting thing to kind of start with because that's really what you do is you can.

  Connect with something that other people cannot see, but is able to see people. So it's kind of like the spirit baby is trying to communicate with the future parent, but the future parent does not have that easy or obvious communication. So

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle Oravitz: very symbolic of what we're gonna talk about.

  Before we do get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us. A background on how you really got into doing this work.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. Yeah, so my name is an Claire and I'm originally from France, but right now I've been in Vancouver, Canada for like six year approximately, and that's when I arrived in Canada that I started to practice as a street baby, medium. And, and through the years and whoever came to me, it ended up towards more [00:03:00] actually women who are trying to conceive.

  I've also spotted women who are pregnant or during the birth process, but I'd say the majority of that whoever is coming to me or who is been sent to me, a woman who've been trying to conceive for a while, and I'll help them connect with the soul of their babies before they come outside.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so cool to me. I always thought it was really intriguing and it's really similar to, it's the same thing as really connecting with people who have passed. It's just kind of like, the direction of where the souls go. So it's either they left from here or they're coming to here, but they're still on the other side.

  And I will say, and this is like my own anecdotal experience, I have seen insanely accurate, messages and signs that my patients would get. From their spirit babies once they opened up. And I think there is a level of opening up because as soon as you ask [00:04:00] and you show that you're open, those signs do actually come in and it's, it's really crazy because they were very like, you can't even explain away what happened.

  It was so accurate and so specific, and the signs were so like detailed that it was insane.

  Anne-Claire: Oh, I love that your clients, like you've noticed that in your client. It's.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so, so talk to us about that really, like, what are spirit babies and how, like how did you figure out that you can connect with it? Like what were some of the signs that you got that you were able to really get intuitive and connect with that energy?

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, so I mean, I love the description you give because that's often what I said. It's like, you know, lot of people, they're aware of the fact that you can communicate with people who passed away and it's kind of the same, just a different, channel or different connection, but it's kind of like the [00:05:00] same, just connecting to the soul before they come.

  So it's basically based on the belief that we all have a soul and that when we pass the soul, keep on living and basically before we can it, some of the soul are coming back. Sometime it's new soul, sometime it, so that already came and we can connect with them. Usually it's contract that have been made between the parents and the.

  Like long, long, even sometime you even born yourself so you can usually connect and see which baby are around you Quite early on in the process and the way it came to me, I mean, there is lot of, there have been, it's not like just one thing. It's been accumulation of, of lot of different, I would say anecdotal experiences, but I'd say they're more, they find me rather than me finding them.

  And yeah, it's, I mean, long story short, like it's, I was in Medi Medical School and then I got, I didn't get into, actually, I. The way it is in France, you [00:06:00] have to do a few years and get, you either enter the medical school or you can get dentist or midwifery, and I got into midwifery and that's what I started to be in contact with a lot of baby and birth and, and it just started to come in my dreams.

  That was kind of like the first time that they really started to come, and that was more like generic and then later on. They started to come for like my own speed, baby started to visit me and, and then I got pregnant. So the very, the big shift when in 2019 when I got pregnant, I really had like very, very, very strong and vivid dream and me said that I needed to help women to connect with their babies.

  And and it was so strong that it's almost like I couldn't do anything else than just following that. I lost that baby at around 11 weeks. And for me it was like kind of a way to honor their life. It's like, you know, it's like, okay, they [00:07:00] came. That was one of the reason and I need to do something with that.

  And that's when I just started to, to just offer that, and it just grew from there.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's so fascinating. It's so interesting to me because, well, first of all, I'm a believer that we have so much more power as humans, and that there's so much more magic than meets the eye. Just because our eyes don't see it or hear ears don't hear it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think that we get so reli relied kind of in mainstream on our senses, and we know for a fact that our senses can only pick up on certain things.

  Just like animals have their senses and sometimes they crosses over where they're able to sense things that we don't sense. So just because our senses don't. Don't understand it or don't see it and don't connect with it, doesn't mean that other things don't exist. So to me it's always really been fascinating and it's also like there's this wisdom [00:08:00] and that we can really connect with.

  It's not just, you know, the energies, but there's a wisdom and sometimes even messages that they have for us. So I would love to talk about that, like. What are some of the messages you've gotten and what are some of the, sort of the teachings that you feel like maybe they're trying to communicate?

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. it's funny, it's very different for each person, but at the same time, there is a lot of message and commonality that keep coming back. So the way I work is, I mean one of the ways when I do one-on-ones, like the woman comes and then I open the channel and we connect with that whoever baby is there and we see what they have to share.

  like, I always. allow for the woman to receive the message as well, so they have the ability to also get some information. And I also receive some, and then we cross compare if, if we both receive information. And there is sometime babies that are very specific. Reason for why there hasn't come.

  So [00:09:00] yeah, just for context, most of women have been trying to conceive for a while. A lot of them is like unexplained fertility and they're not really understanding what's going on. So sometime through talking with a baby, there is a reason that is on the baby side. Maybe they have some fear, you know, that I. they're just scared of just incarnating and what that just coming on earth and coming in a physical body and sometime it's a past life connection as well with the moms and healing that need to happen. I. Sometime it will be, you know, parents are very set on like having a boy, but the baby that is there is actually a girl.

  So she's like, I'm not gonna come because I feed my parents. That's not what they want. So there is a lot of little stories like that that I see. But that being said, it's very interesting 'cause it's not the majority of what's going on. So that I've definitely, all of those stories I shared, I've seen them and way more, but I would say the common message that I see very often.

  Is especially those [00:10:00] women that find spirit, baby and then that find me. I feel there is like a, they call on a spiritual journey and like personal development journey, which is often like one of the first messages. Like you don't have to do that much. Like you can just be and relax. And I know it might sound. You know, they've heard that a lot of like relax and, but the way it comes from the street baby, it land on the mom very differently that they actually, they get it. And often what I said is the street babies come in their life to take them on a spiritual journey and spiritual growth. Often, especially when there is nothing, you know, and it's like they've done all the tests, they've tried everything and nothing is explained.

  I often compare it to. Know those stories of people who have like very traumatic let's say car accident or cancer, and they [00:11:00] just use that as like a life, it's like awakening for them and then they change something in their life. That's often what I see. It's like. The women so want the baby. It's like so deep and so close to their hearts that they'll do anything for them to, to change.

  They'll do anything for them to come. And so if they're invited to take more on a spiritual path, then often they'll take it.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, I think it's like that in everything. You know, I work in the world of fertility, so this is that topic that we speak about, but the topic can shift and change and you can insert another topic, and it's still this same, I guess, human. Challenges that we have, which is when we desire something.

  I think Buddha taught about this like thousands of years ago about how we desire, you know, and how desire in a certain circumstance can make us suffer. And it's because [00:12:00] we're trying to shift or change what is right now and what's interesting and, and it's such a crazy, like irony, I guess, of how it works.

  But it's the letting go that actually brings it closer. It's confusing and it's heartbreaking and it's difficult to accept, but it's the truth and I see it also how it is depicted in the Chinese medicine and the body and the qi that which we resist. Whatever we will resist will cause more stagnation.

  And when we allow ourselves even to feel difficult emotions when we allow it to move through us, then we have more flow on the other side of it. Is a feeling of weightlessness.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, and, and there is a lot, I mean, as everything you mentioned, that's the thing is that. I believe there is also physical things that need to happen. It's like I'm focused, I choose, like I'm also trained as a naturopath, so I have all that knowledge, but I just, I've [00:13:00] noticed there were lack when it come to the energetic and spiritual side of conception.

  But all the rest is also important and also need to happen. But the thing is, women that come to me. Often they've done all of this. They, they've seen the, they've seen the acupuncture, they've done, they've seen the naturopaths, they've changed their diet. They're taking the supplements, and then they're like, what's going on?

  Michelle Oravitz: What else? Yeah, that's always the, what else? And I find a lot of interesting things also with the nervous system. And I think the nervous system really, I mean, if you wanna like kind of use one word for it, it's information and it, it communicates, it's basically communication pathway. It's electricity that goes through your body.

  When that is clear and when that is regulated, you're also more in tune with your intuition. You're also more in tune with your body and what your body needs, whether that is food or other things as well. And so I find that, that when it's regulated, we can be in a [00:14:00] state of more trust and receivership.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, definitely. And I mean, exactly. It's like if you are in like survival mode, it's like it's buzzing inside of you, so it's difficult to hear anything and even to connect with your baby or to connect with your body or, and, and this is definitely one of the steps. It's like, how can I quiet my mind? How can I re. As they say, like not stress. And that's another thing, you know, they don't like to hear about that, but that's, that's goal in nervous system. Like how can I get more, ah, there's more space, you know?

  Michelle Oravitz: Safe you when you feel safe. And I think that that's actually what a lot of people are craving. They're craving a feeling of safety.

  Anne-Claire: yeah, definitely. And.

  Michelle Oravitz: Because being in this situation, you know, there's a lot of fight or flight because you're getting numbers and all kinds of information overload, you know?

  Anne-Claire: And what's happening with when? You know, the, as I said in the [00:15:00] work I do, there is different layers. But one of the first layer is, you know, when you've been on that journey for so long and you've tried so much, you reach a point where. You kind of almost lose open and question, you know, is it really the past?

  Should I really keep going into that? And, and I found just knowing and just having even a sense that their baby is there and receiving even just a few message, it's doing something in them that it's like. Okay. I'm not doing it wrong. I'm not, you know, taking the wrong path and it just help them to have hope again and be more peaceful and just keep going on that journey because it is, for some woman, a very long journey.

  And it's require as well, you know, some, it's like almost reinsurance that they're doing the right thing, even if there's no right or wrong, but.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. That they're on the path for a reason. I think that [00:16:00] that also is another thing, like I personally believe because I've been doing this for a long time, and I think after a while you start to see patterns and I feel like there's a calling for a reason. I. There's a reason for it. It's not random that they have this calling within their heart and ultimately a lot like, it's funny 'cause I had one patient ask me, do the majority of your patients get pregnant?

  Eventually they do. Actually the majority do. There's a small percentage that don't and they choose other ways, but even those other ways can be meant to be, even though they weren't the initial path that people imagine.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. And, and that's what's interesting is that, you know, I had people shifting past you know, going through adoption or just like reaching a point where they're at peace with not having children. But I find that on the other side, whatever happened, I. They, there might be a a time where it's been a lot of grieving and it has been [00:17:00] challenging, but they're like, oh, that's exactly how it was meant to be.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Anne-Claire: There's

  Michelle Oravitz: that's powerful.

  Anne-Claire: yeah. But often what I say is it's in the work we're doing is like sometime you need quite a few years to be able to know as well, you know, what's going to unfold and how for people 'cause even the conception journey, you know, it's like you get pregnant then it's nine months and then so it's often takes a few years to know, okay, what's happening for those, those clients.

  But but yeah, I've. I definitely I love what you're doing because it's also very holistic and it's like looking at like, okay, from different angle and how can we become, what I say is like more aligned, you know, body, mind, and spirit. How can we align fully than then your baby can join and come in this lifetime with you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and I find that what's interesting is that, like you said, you know, everybody comes to you when they've tried everything else, and what happens is because. Kind of the [00:18:00] spiritual aspect is so difficult and you know, it's not as tangible. It's not something that you can hold and look at. It's something that can only really truly be felt.

  And ultimately you need silence and you need peace and quiet in order to truly feel that and connect with it. And how often do we do that in modern daytime? Like how often do we really get that opportunity? To get quiet. And that's one of the reasons why I tell a lot of my patients and I'm like a nagging mom to my patients.

  You gotta meditate. You gotta meditate. And, and sometimes it takes them like months and then they finally do. And when they finally get to, it's kind of like starting the gym. You resist at first. You don't really feel it going to work out, but you just do. You push yourself until it starts to feel good and then you become addicted.

  And ultimately that's that's the aspect that I find is often missed on the fertility journey. It's that [00:19:00] mindset. It's that connecting with your spirit, connecting with that intuition and that intelligence. And when people do, and this is before baby, you know, because there's this preconceived assumption that you're gonna have to suffer.

  But when they do connect with spirit and they do get quiet, not only do they connect with their intuition, but they also feel more peace.

  Anne-Claire: Oh yeah, definitely. It, it's interesting that you're sharing that because so the way I support women through fertility is like a 12 week journey. And this, the first session we do is how to make space. It might sound when you're like, oh, it's easy. But then we really dive into, okay, what does that mean to make space, you know, make space for yourself, make space for in your schedule in your house.

  And, and I was like, I tell them it's like we can't do anything until we've done that. And space in your mind, you know, it's like, and how does it look for. Every person would be different. Some it would be, I need space in my body, you know, to maybe shift the way I'm, I'm [00:20:00] eating and feel more spacious.

  And some is like a lot actually, the, the, there's a need as you mentioned in the mind of like, I. How can we re either rephrase that thing that it's keep going on and on. Like, am I get, I'm getting too old, I don't know if it's gonna happen or is there doubt? And and the creating space is, is very important because I feel that's the number one piece to do to a lot.

  Like, first, it's like often what I say is like, if you want new friends. How can you get new friends if you don't create space for those people? You know, if you don't make the time for them, if you don't make the time to, to check on them and, and it's the same for your baby. It's like you need to, it, there need to be space in your life for a baby to come.

  And if there is already not space for you to take care of yourself, like how does, can a baby come.

  Michelle Oravitz: And it also impacts your body if you're not giving yourself that space. When you give yourself that space, you can get more [00:21:00] into a balanced state, because right now with all the information that's being loaded on us, and we don't really have much time for space.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but sometime it can start very easily, you know, for me, I said it's like even five minutes, you know, do five minutes of breathing

  and it's just like you are with your breath. And that's it. And yesterday I had a client, she already has as a daughter and I was telling her, okay, you are very busy.

  And I, and I get it, how about you even just be, try to be even more in the present moment with her, because often we, you know, we doing something but we thinking of the next things or, or something else. And it's like, how about when you play with her? You just play with her. And when you know, when, I don't know, when you clean the dishes, we just clean the dishes.

  Like bringing mindfulness, it's not adding. To your life is just shifting the way you are, you are doing,

  Michelle Oravitz: I love that reframe. [00:22:00] And it's true. It's just small things and ultimately it actually creates more time because when you're feeling more peace, I. And you do have that like sense of space and not feeling as overwhelmed, you're much more productive.

  Anne-Claire: Oh yeah, definitely. And often also I find something that I notice a lot is, you know, because of the society we in and it's very, in a way, it's very, very masculine, very doing very success, very. Goal oriented and, and also as women, we decided with that we want to work, we want to be successful, we want to earn good money.

  Like all of that. But I found a lot of my clients then end up in like the doing, doing, doing very masculine was when you want to conceive, my belief is to come back to the feminine and to the being because the masculine is very outwards and it's very, it's a lot, it's like busy. Whereas the feminine is like, okay, I'm more open.

  And being, and then by being [00:23:00] more open, then it's easier for the conception to happen and the baby to come.

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, that's the yin and the yang. I a hundred percent. And we're very much in a yang state, which can burn us out. It could burn out the yin, which is really the seed, and getting back into the yin, you know, harmonizes that, and ultimately that's what the egg does it. So there's two ways of getting things.

  You can run after it or you can call it in. There's just two ways. So sometimes calling it in is way more powerful, or maybe that's really what is. The best way at the moment.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. And it's always, you know, going back, you know, as you mentioned, the y and the young, if we, from in like the way it is, like it's a balance. It's like you, you need both. It's like you can. You know, you, you, you can't just like sit at home and being like, oh, okay, I'm meditate, I manifest, I'm calling my baby.

  And that's it, you know, not, and eating junk food and [00:24:00] watching movie all day and like, you know, it's, it's a balance. But I find, and it's probably the same situation in yours, I, the, when the state of, when they, at least for me, when they reach for help, they. They've done a lot of the yang, and it's like, how can we bring in more of the yin in and then rebalance that?

  Because oh, I'm doing the, I'm going to this, I'm seeing that practitioner, that practitioner, but then it's almost become a to-do list of practitioner was, or originally the, let's say I'm going for a massage, originally supposed to help you relax, but then it's becoming of like to-do, to make it happen.

  So they lose sometimes the purpose of it.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sometimes the same thing with intimacy with your partner. It's the same thing. It's becoming like a means to an end rather than that really initial connection that you had and that spark in the magic, which also helps with conception.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. Yeah. It's def it's a multifaceted But I'd say what we were saying is like [00:25:00] going back to yourself and really being able to hear what's happening, and then I. Like in, in my work, I said, just being aware that your baby's around and is also helping you in that. You know, it's not just all on you.

  It's like, it's like it's you with your baby, with your partner, and

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, I actually great timing because I was gonna mention one of my patients, she also connected with her spare baby. This was secondary in fertility for years, and to the point where she was just like, I think I'm done. I'm, I'm not sure. And she was coming to me for a year and. She had talked to a spirit baby, medium, and she had talked about the fact that the husband in some way because of what they went through with the losses after the first child, you know, miscarriages, he was kind of shutting down and she said, you know, your husband needs to be.

  More open or make [00:26:00] kind of, come to terms with what happened. And interestingly enough, he was going through his own thing and I think that he had to really open up, but it was pretty wild because right after that, like a couple months after she got pregnant and she kept the baby and she had the baby,

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, no, definitely. That's the thing. Women tend to thank everything on themself, but it's, it's bigger. It's like, yeah. It's like the partner. If you have already children, it's also, you know. Sometime I, I ask, you know, I ask them, those who, who've been trying with a, a second and I'm like, okay, let's say you would've been pregnant the first time, you know, and your youngest was maybe one.

  Do you feel it would've been the best for your, for your youngest? Like, how do you feel? And often they, they, they realize that, oh, actually no, it probably maybe wasn't the right timing for them, but they never even think of that, that they think it's all on them. And, but it's, it's all dynamic, you know, it's. [00:27:00] It's where you are sometime even in your business, it's like, where are you at financially? It's like, there is different element, but I think sometime it's, it's good for the mom to be able to realize that if it's not happening, it's not just, it's not first, it's not because of at all. And and there is different layer to, to it.

  And, and I love the, the story that you shared because Yeah. I've seen that sometimes it's the, the, the data. They also need to be maybe more.

  Or just more. Maybe it needs to be expressed that, okay, I do want one, because sometimes, you know, when you try it for a long time, there's disconnection that can happen.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, absolutely. And there was an interesting story that my recent guest had shared. I think it was the last episode I recorded, and she's a friend of mine who teaches yoga. Susan Singer. And she ha it was just insane. She went through the fertility journey [00:28:00] and went through IVF and it wasn't working for many years.

  And finally she did get pregnant and she always used to have one code, one specific code that she would always put. I. As her pin, but it was very random, like it was just a pin she decided on. And when her baby was supposed to be born, they actually induced her a week before the due date. And when she had the baby, she didn't even think about this, but she had the baby and then she sees on the chalkboard or there was like a, a chart in front of her with the date of birth of the baby, and that was The number the

  number that she's always in the past. And just to think about like, I mean, thou like, this is years and years and years and years of of, of going through this and thinking, oh, I want it, and why can't it happen? And, and all this time it was like meant to be in the exact moment

  that had

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. Oh, I love that story. [00:29:00] That's super cool.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's insane. I was like, I mean it's just, it's so poetic and it's just such an example of that and I think that it was just, I think it's going to land for a lot of people because it's so powerful.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, because as we, you know, we mentioned it's, I mean, it's exactly an, an example. It is like the baby. They also choose when they want to be born, you know, and, and sometimes some of my clients, I was like, you know, they tried to conceive during COVID and I was like, no, maybe your baby didn't want to come during COVID time as well.

  You know, it's like with everything which was involved, like there, there is, I often say that we underst we have a better understanding on our journey and it's difficult to to accept, but when we are on the other side, but often when we are on the other side, everything. It makes sense. Like I have a client that she tried to conceive for 10 years.

  10 years, like, I think she said like 20, 20 plus round of ideas. Like something like a lot five or [00:30:00] six miscarriage a lot. So she's like, I'm grateful that I was able to keep doing, you know, also financially, but but it was, it was a lot. And now she, she has a daughter. A daughter just turned one.

  She's working with me for the second, but when, when, you know, when she, she came to me you know, it, it was a lot that she was, she came to me before she was pregnant for the first, the first one, and it was a lot to carry. But now looking back, it's like she said, I can be a mom, a very different mom because I'm a different place with my business.

  I'm a, like, there's so many things that are different that. She's like, she's very grateful at that it happened the way it is, even if it was a difficult journey. And also, I, I, I have a sense that down the road she's probably gonna step up and help some women that are also going through similar journey.

  So it's, it's difficult in the moment, definitely. But I've, they always have the woman, you know, when [00:31:00] they're their baby. They, they're grateful for the journey and they understand better as well why it didn't happen earlier.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, that always is the case. I've never had anybody go through it. And say they would change anything about it

  after the fact. They would say like, I don't care if it was like so many years, I'm still happy it happened just the way it happened because I wouldn't get that perfect genetic makeup that would give me my child today.

  And I mean, there's so many but it, you know, when you're in it, it's like anything. I think that one of the biggest fears that we have as humans is the unknown and not knowing how things are gonna work out. And it's very hard when you want something so badly. To not know how it's gonna turn out and to not know if you're, all of the energy and time that you're putting in is for nothing because at the time when you're going through it, it feels that way.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, you were asking me earlier, you know what some common message, and there is one actually that is [00:32:00] very strong, is the baby want their mom to be happy. That's, that's a very big one. And it sounds like very silly and very simple, but it's actually a very big one. And often, you know, when we talk about like when you, I even felt it when it's like, you know, when you want it so bad and you're really trying, you know, it's very, this energy of like, it's contracting because you know, when you try hard, it's like you are trying to make it happen.

  And what we talked before, it's that this itself can. Unfortunately just that block the process and, and we want to open more and a way to do it. Often what I recommend is what can you do for yourself? What, what bring you joy? What were you used to do with your partner on your own that maybe you're not doing anymore, and that you can introduce a little bit more to.

  Reach more place basically where you are happy because that's what your baby wants ultimately. And when you prioritize yourself and what bring you joy, [00:33:00] then it's easier also for the baby to to come.

  Michelle Oravitz: That makes perfect sense. I often talk about working on the heart space because the heart actually plays a very important role on fertility and our emotional wellbeing. It plays a really important role on our uterus, literally, and the energetics of that and the energetics of our body. And, and when we do have really difficult, heavy emotions, it can impact even our menstrual cycle.

  So this is like, we see that in Chinese medicine. It really does impact your body and your hormones, and I often compare this to, because it's not really just us and that's why it's. One of the things in life that we just cannot fully have in our hands. It's not fully in our hands, it's in our hands. And it's a co-creation of sorts really.

  And the same thing can be compared to when you're meeting a person that you're gonna end up marrying or a partner. You cannot force that [00:34:00] relationship. You cannot make it happen. You cannot say, that's the person and, and I'm taking it. No, you have to invite it in and you have to be there and you have to allow sort of the will of the other aspect, the other party to come in

  at

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. Definitely. Now I love this analogy with the partner. That's often what I say. Also, it's like, you know, everyone has different stories, like when they met their, their partner, but some are very long, some are short, some are challenging, and some are, it's like, and it's sometime. It's like it makes sense that it's a little bit the same with having a baby in my opinion, but we so used to things being, you know, you order on Amazon and is

  deliveries the following day that we think, yeah, I mean sometimes I'm definitely like that and it's like.

  So then I, so many time of like, oh, I thought when I would be ready to have my baby. Then it'll come and they're like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm okay if it's take few months, but they think I'm ready, so it [00:35:00] should be coming. But it's the same of like, when you were ready to meet your partner, did your partner just suddenly appear or did it take whatever roads it it took for you? And it's like, could you, you can't, as you said, it's like you can't force someone to be your partner. It's like you have to let it happen. And same when you look who you end with and when you end up with, you're like, oh, that was exactly the right person, at exactly the right time. And it's a little the same.

  I see the same way with your spirit, baby. It's like they're gonna come, they're here, but there is a lot of things that need to align for them to come and. We don't have control of it, and I think that's a challenging part for, for us as human.

  Michelle Oravitz: I think there's the, the one word that comes to mind is trust. In order to co-create, you have to trust. You can't because you can't, you're not doing it yourself. So you have to trust. You have to give forth trust [00:36:00] in order for that co-creation. 'cause there's another element to this.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah. Trust and face are always what I, what I say as well. It's like you, it's like, do you believe your body can do it? And, and do you have faced that this baby will come? And, and that's, that's the part sometime that, that is lost I find on the journey. And that's why often when they, they connect with their baby and they, they feel it, then it's reignite that or make it a little stronger.

  Michelle Oravitz: And are there any, like, I mean, you've shared a lot of great things, but like any parting words, anything that specifically, if people are listening to this, you would really want them to hear?

  Anne-Claire: I didn't hear the full question. Sorry.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, if there's anything that you'd really want somebody listening to this to hear, is there like a parting message, something that you really feel strongly about?

  Anne-Claire: Oh yeah, [00:37:00] they're doing great. They're doing amazing. Like for me, that's the, to remind them that, for, in my opinion, they're already your mom. They are, you know, even if their, their baby's not her side, they're already your mom. They, I mean, I. It's like, look, everything you're doing, it's like you're doing, you are almost doing so much.

  Like if your baby was already there, you are, you are caring so much. You're loving so much. So for me, they're already your mom. And then the other thing is really to be gentle with themself like, and it's one step at a time, one day at a time, they will be some up and low and it's gonna be sideways and just to. Just go back of like their why, like why did they wanna baby in the first place, you know, when it's difficult and they doubting, just reconnect to that in a in a why. So yeah, you are already a mom. You are doing amazing. Vito is yourself, and, and it will happen. I really believe it will happen.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's powerful. And then one last [00:38:00] question actually. If people want to connect with their spirit babies and are listening to this and say, okay, like how can I connect with my spirit, baby? What should I do? What would you suggest?

  Anne-Claire: On

  their own. Yeah. So there is different way to do it actually. I mean, they, I created a guided meditation for free to connect with your spirit, baby. So that's often I find a, a good first step to just try to just, it's like I guide you through different step to invite your spirit, baby. So that's often the first one through meditation.

  The other way to do it is journaling, so what we call intuitive writing where you just kind of write and then open the channel to. See what's coming. And for that often I recommend to either do meditation before, like any type of meditation or do some exercise or just write on paper everything you have in your mind.

  The idea is to clear your mind, to be more [00:39:00] receptive because if you jumping right away into trying to receive a message, but you were like. Talking with someone or doing the dishes or like working right before, it's gonna be difficult. So have a practice before that. So yeah, meditation, spirit, baby meditation, journaling, asking for a sign.

  You know, we talked about, it's like, can you show me a sign and, and just be open. The other way is through dreams. So before you go to bed, setting the intention of like opening the invitation for your baby to come through your dreams, this one is very powerful when it happen. But you have to know it can take time.

  You know, it might take few months before they visit you once it's not like a magic recipe, but it's like just even like talking to them, you know, even if you can't eat anything, just being aware that they're around and they exist and just. This is a first step and then when you do that, then you'll see actually even with asking sign, you might see sign [00:40:00] or unless someone tell you about something.

  So that's probably would be the the different ways that I would suggest

  Michelle Oravitz: It's so interesting how I'm going back to full circle. When we first started the call for maybe like 30 minutes. And Claire was on the line and she kept coming back in and all I can see was black and I can't hear anything. And she keeps saying the same thing on the chat. I can see you and I can hear you.

  Anne-Claire: Oh yeah, that was,

  Michelle Oravitz: And I'm like, and that is to me, that was I, I was like, okay, spirit's messing with us. Like this is what. They're trying to say, they're trying to say that, and I, and I'm like, if, I mean that, if that's not a sign,

  Anne-Claire: oh no, but

  definitely, I mean, I.

  Michelle Oravitz: is,

  Anne-Claire: Goose, when you say and.

  Michelle Oravitz: I mean, and I was like, okay, okay, there's a reason why this is happening. I'm like, there's got, you know, and it's [00:41:00] like, I could have gotten, okay, so it was 30 minutes and I was like, okay, we gotta get started. But I wasn't, I felt peaceful. I was like, I wasn't impatient. I'm like, okay, it's gonna happen. It's, we're gonna figure this out somehow.

  And I wasn't feeling impatient and I wasn't feeling like rushed. And to me that was the whole thing was so symbolic of the journey and how we can feel, but then also acknowledging the fact that like, yeah, there's this consciousness that is fully aware of you and not, not in a creepy way, but like can see you and can hear you, and all you have to do is just speak.

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, I mean, 100%. I, I think that's a great example that you say like the black screen and, and the ear. It's like, and that's often the case, you know, at the beginning. I mean, a lot of women do the meditation and they do something happen, like even just the sensational color, but some days nothing. [00:42:00] But they just feel better.

  They say, oh, I feel more calm, I feel, so just that feeling, you know, it's like

  even if. It's, it's something. And then they go back and what I always said is that some. I really believe if you've been on a journey for a long time, there is a baby and there is a reason. So I wouldn't really question is there a speed baby out there out?

  'cause that's often time the question I got for me is like, yes, there is. And then some women, it's easier for them to communicate than others. That's also where they, they come and, you know, someone like me will, will help facilitate the, the communication. But it's like. As we said, it's like if we, you talk and share, they, they will receive the message even if you don't hear back.

  And it's, it's a difficult trust to have,

  but know, it's, what do you have to lose anyway? It's like, It's

  why

  Michelle Oravitz: literally literally that was the thought that I had. I'm like, this is exactly what it's like to connect [00:43:00] with your spirit, baby. I'm like, she sees me and hears me and I'm just sitting here like I can't say anything. And so it's pretty wild. So I know that you work with people. If people were to listen to this and really connect with your message and wanna find you, how can they find you?

  Anne-Claire: So the best way Rhino is on my website, which is with my full name. Would you put the link under or

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I'm gonna put the link, I'm gonna put the, I think you already sent

  it,

  Anne-Claire: Yeah, so it's, it's my full name. I'm clearly beyond.com. And and the way, actually, the, the way I'm doing right now, there is one-on-one option of communication, but I find that it was a lot more powerful to come together as a small group of women.

  So that's the, the main program I do is called Bring Your Sweet Baby Home. And, it's like an intimate group of women coming together. And I take them on a journey where it's like we don't exactly know where it's gonna go. I just know that on the other side, everyone feels [00:44:00] definitely more at peace, at trust.

  They're feeling calm and they. They really have the deep knowing that their baby's coming and they let go of like how and when. I don't know. I can't really explain even how it happened, but it always happened. That's I can guarantee and, and yeah. Obviously some of them get pregnant, but as you mentioned, you can't, I.

  It's not something you can, we can promise, but that's the best way on my website and I always love to meet people. So even if you're not ready to book anything, just, you know, send me a a note and the meditation will also be available on my website. And we can also put the link and you can just try with that and just tell me how it was for you and if you are able to receive anything.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, this is such a pleasure. I'm so excited that we got to talk and everything worked out in the end. And thank you so much and Claire for coming on today.

  Anne-Claire: Thank you so much. I, I really had a really nice time. It was lovely to see you and the way the time is ticking, we are gonna finish at 44. [00:45:00] 44. Very

  interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: And your time. That's amazing. See? Of course, of course. Awesome. Thank you so much.

  Anne-Claire: Thank you. Have a nice day.

  [00:46:00]

Ep 344 Spirit Babies, Signs, and Surrender with Susan Singer

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined once again by Susan Singer (@iamsusansinger), fertility yoga teacher, spirit baby advocate, and co-founder of Gals Off The Grid. Susan first appeared on the podcast back in episode 3, where she shared her fertility journey. Today, we revisit that path and explore the remarkable unfolding of motherhood, intuition, and spiritual alignment that followed.

Susan shares how she went from multiple rounds of IVF to a natural conception, and the moment Michelle felt her pregnancy through pulse diagnosis before any test confirmed it. We dive deep into the signs, synchronicities, and spiritual guidance that supported her journey, including a powerful numerological moment in the delivery room that tied back to a PIN code she created 15 years prior.

Now a mom and wellness entrepreneur, Susan reflects on how her connection to community, the land, and her own inner wisdom helped shape Gals Off The Grid, a nature-inspired membership and retreat space for soul-led women seeking to reconnect with the rhythms of Mother Earth and feminine energy.

This episode is a beautiful reminder that the fertility journey is more than just the physical process it's a soul path rich with signs, surrender, and divine timing.

Key Takeaways: 

• Fertility journeys often unfold in unexpected, divinely timed ways.
  

Guest Bio:

Susan Singer (@iamsusansinger) is a visionary storyteller, certified yoga teacher, and co-host of the Gals Off The Grid Podcast. With over 15 years of experience across the entertainment and wellness industries, she blends creativity with ancient wisdom to help women reconnect with their voice, purpose, and feminine energy. Susan leads soul-nourishing retreats, moon circles, and healing gatherings rooted in nature, intuition, and ancestral traditions. Her work honours the sacred wisdom of those who came before while empowering women to reclaim their power and live from a place of grounded truth and spiritual alignment.


Links and Resources:

• Follow Susan on Instagram

• Sign up for the Gals Off The Grid newsletter

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Discover The Wholesome Fertility Journey:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: welcome back to the podcast, Susan. I'm so excited to have you here. Finally.

  I am so excited to be here. It's been such a journey.

  Yes, so of course I've had Susan on the podcast episode three, so this is like way back when. I think it was like 2019, where. We connected, was it 2018? Wow. 2018. That's insane. And when we first connected, and we were fertility buddies, colleagues Susan [00:03:00] Singer was doing a fertility yoga, phenomenal at it and went through her journey and I'm so excited to have you back.

  So you've completely revamped change, morphed evolved and I'm just really, really excited to have you.

  Susan Singer: Yay. I am too. I couldn't wait for us to get back here together. And we started our journeys together when I was doing, when I was going through my own fertility journey, which I'll, you know, talk a little bit about that since we were on episode three and now you have over 300 episodes. It's. it's beyond awesome to see you grow, to see where I am at and it's just, it's so fun.

  So I was a fertility yoga teacher for many years and. Still, I can still consider myself one as well because I still teach yoga. It's still the foundation of who I am, and I [00:04:00] started teach. I was a yoga teacher for many, many years, and then when I started going through my fertility journey, I brought fertility yoga into my life and how to use that.

  To help me get pregnant and just going, I always said that you're part of a community you don't necessarily wanna be a part of, and it's the, the heartache and the constant every day. That's the only thing on your mind. And to be able to bring a sense of spirituality, connection to yourself, to source, I felt like that really helped me and guided me on my journey.

  My journey was. I think it would, it started like back in 2017 when I was really like, okay, I'm ready to get pregnant. I was in my mid thirties and I remember one time getting my Vedic astrology chart read, and it was saying that I was moving into my fertility moon phase during 2017 and I'm like, oh, great, I'm gonna get pregnant.

  This is wonderful. I got married in that because it's all, you [00:05:00] know, Venus is all about relationships and love and family and. Clearly it didn't happen and I started going down painful rabbit hole of trying to get pregnant and realizing my big, so my big thing was the quality of my eggs. And it was really difficult to figure out what direction to go into with. turn, unfortunately, this whole industry, as you're aware, it's like it turns into it's just another business and you just feel like you're in a factory and you sit in the waiting rooms with hundreds of other women getting our blood work done, and it just feels so. Unfortunate and yucky and it's like, I don't wanna be here.

  Why is this happening to me? And you know, why does that person get pregnant all the time? And you know, I'm healthier than they are. Or this crack addict has six kids and this isn't happening for me. And so I definitely had my ups and downs and I really felt that fertility, yoga, the [00:06:00] yoga portion of it, really helped me stay in rhythm of, seeing myself in a higher space and maybe not so much understanding why is this happening to me, but accepting that this is part of my journey and I really wanted to share my journey. So when Michelle and I actually started our podcast together

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes.

  Susan Singer: called Goddess Mama Fertility podcast.

  And I really spoke about my journey and had experts on the show and all that. So I went through round of IVF and. You know, it's your first one, you're like, this is totally working for me. And then, you know, I got I think it was 10, 10 eggs and I think I ended up getting five embryos and, you know, you're hoping, and then the call comes two days after and then clearly it didn't work. I fell into a space of you know, my husband and I were both like, this is gonna work. You know, you go into like this, this, instead of the feminine energy, you're [00:07:00] going into this masculine energy and you're, now, you're in competition. And I'm gonna do the IVF again, even though I was aware that you needed to calm your body first.

  And why didn't this happen? Like, give myself 90 days, let things re let myself cells change. And, but no, I did it right away. Second round didn't work. And then it was a process of, now what do I do? Like, am I gonna do this again? I, am I gonna go a different route? And I remember during this time I found the book Spirit Babies and I remember I had someone who was a spirit baby expert on the podcast.

  And it just completely changed so much of my on understanding that. I know because she did, she did a session on me that I definitely have. A spirit baby around me. And she was actually explaining what she looked like, how she had brown straight hair and she was very active and she was into art and she was [00:08:00] running around in the backyard and she was just saying all this, these things about her. And I just felt different. Like it wasn't just so much about what was going on in my body, it was like the connection of the timing and so much that had to go around it. So I was able to sit in that energy and help soothe myself and my nervous system and, just really, and also the work that you were doing, I really felt that acupuncture really helped a lot.

  And I, when was it? Was it a year later? I'm not sure. How much longer, but I did another round and then I remember I came back and I had a session with you and you were the first person to tell me that you're pregnant because you can feel it on my wrist. Like my heartbeat was different. I remember that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Susan Singer: And it was just, it was so profound because I feel like I took out my ego and myself. was able to maybe connect with her, like connect with my spirit baby. And when was she [00:09:00] ready to come in so I can keep talking? 'cause I have a great

  Michelle Oravitz: no, keep talking. I,

  I love all of this

  and I'm sure the listeners too.

  Susan Singer: Yeah, so I, I ended up, um, so I found out I was pregnant by you, and then I was waiting, I think 10 days to get the real call.

  And I remember I was at, I was in Miami, I was at a yoga class and I remember telling the yoga class, like, I'm after the, I'm supposed to find out, like right after this class. And I was like freaking out. And then I was in the car and I got the call and I found out I was pregnant. And just, know, I really wanted to get home because I was living on the water then, and I wanted to get the call and, and I wanted the dolphins just to come jumping outta the water.

  And I had this whole plan, but instead I was in a parking garage, but it was okay. And I found that I was pregnant and I need to share this such a powerful story. So when I was young, I was probably back like 10, 15 years ago when I [00:10:00] opened up a bank account and. You know when you have to put in a code, like a new code for your pin, you have to put in a pin. Well, I just randomly picked this number, just randomly picked a four digit number, and I did that back in like 2007, so, you know, never thinking about it. Then it was always like my locker code and whatever, cut to. I'm in the delivery room and I actually, my due date was pushed up two weeks because the last time I went into get a, get a test and an ultrasound, my blood pressure was really high.

  And they're like, yeah, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to, you're having this baby tonight. And I knew

  Michelle Oravitz: Hmm.

  Susan Singer: a full, they had to what was the word? They have to induce me

  Michelle Oravitz: Induced. Yeah.

  Susan Singer: It was a full moon. And I'm like, clearly she wants to be born on a full moon. And it was two, it was two weeks before my due date.

  And I looked, um, and I had my beautiful daughter and I was, I was there with her and I looked [00:11:00] at, in the, in the hospital, I looked at the board where it said her name and her weight and the date she was born. And it wasn't spelled out. Instead it was just the numbers. And I looked at it, I'm like, God. 1, 1, 1 3. That was the code that I, that was my pin that I put in

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Susan Singer: years ago. It randomly came to me, and now here I am, like I can tear up

  Michelle Oravitz: That's insane. I never knew this.

  Susan Singer: Yeah, and I'm just

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh my god.

  Susan Singer: is what I'm talking about when I say that. Like everything happens in divine timing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh my God, I love that.

  Susan Singer: It's just it's like your. You came here for a reason. Your spirit, your soul came here for a reason. You, you, you already have your blueprint. Everything is already mapped out.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: you are not getting pregnant because of environmental or because of your eggs or [00:12:00] because of this or that. It's, everything is just, this is your path.

  This is your journey. And when I saw that and I got pregnant at 40, so

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: had her when I, when I was 40, when I turned 41.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: And it was just like, and she has straight brown hair. She is a ball

  Michelle Oravitz: I keep getting the chills by the way. I'm just sitting here with a bunch of chills.

  Susan Singer: art every like, it's just oh my God. And like this little thing is, was like she was waiting for me. And it doesn't matter how she entered into this world, it doesn't, none of that matters. It's your, if you have, if your spirit baby is there, like she or he is coming, like when the timing and, and honestly like, I'm not gonna, not gonna get into it, but there's even no thing timing doesn't even exist.

  It's

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Susan Singer: this is your path. So I just, November 13th 1, [00:13:00] 1, 1 3, like that

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Susan Singer: most random number and it was like, I truly believe it. Like it was, she's a gift and. And she didn't, you know, the second round of IVF didn't work and then found out we were moving to to Tennessee, and when we found out we were moving that next month, I found out I was pregnant.

  Like she wanted to be a country girl. She didn't wanna

  Michelle Oravitz: I love it. I love that. I just love that so much. I think that, first of all, I, I believe that the universe is math. Mathematical, there's so many mathematical, things, you know, the, what is it called? The sequence, the golden ratio and the, what is it? The something sequence.

  Susan Singer: I don't

  Michelle Oravitz: You know what I'm talking about?

  Right? it's 1, 1, 2, 3. It's like there's a certain sequence

  Susan Singer: yes. I don't

  Michelle Oravitz: I for.

  Susan Singer: is, but I know what you're talking

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. So, but there's, there's definitely numbers and numerology and, and symbols and signs, and that's how the universe speaks to us because I think that we come here with free will. [00:14:00] Nothing's given to us like so direct. We actually have to seek it.

  We have to do that extra effort of noticing and paying attention to the signs. And I think that is freaking amazing. I mean, I never knew that story.

  Susan Singer: I never

  Michelle Oravitz: I'm blown away.

  Susan Singer: it's

  Michelle Oravitz: Blown away.

  Susan Singer: it's, and it's now, you know, she's five and a half and it's, you know, she just, she's my li she's mine, she's perfect. Like exactly the way, you know, everything is, is mapped out and I, I just think the most important thing to mention is that is your journey.

  This is, has nothing to do with anyone else, but your, you and your partner. And it's like if the, like I said, I was always just, you know, envious or ego you know, why isn't this happening? You know, we always, why isn't this happening to me? What is wrong with my body? It's okay. Maybe you need to get forti, get [00:15:00] acupuncture.

  Maybe you need to eat better. Maybe you are using chemicals that, that you shouldn't be using, but you, you can clean all that up. But like you said, it's. It's just, it is what it is. Our existence is here with this path, and this is what's going on in our lives, in this world at this moment with, with fertility problems within, with women, and it's un and men men of

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: it's unfortunate, it's true. as I grow and I learn even with where my body is today, the importance of. Of the nervous system, the importance of sitting in the feminine energy, the importance of not, of being in your element and what is best for you and nothing about what other people are doing or the environment or what society is saying and just really honoring this because. path is your path. And it might go on for a year and it might go on for 10 years and you [00:16:00] might need 10 rounds of IVF. And you know what? After that and you have your baby, like, it doesn't matter. It's

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: matter because life

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: forward. So, and you know, you might, it's just, I just want everyone to know that. Like I said, it's like you're part of a community that you don't wanna be a part of and you're going through this process, but if you can come from it with love and with just a soul connection, you're, you're gonna be able to, actually enjoy and understand okay, that was something I needed to go through in my life and learn.

  Michelle Oravitz: Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions or sort of, um, misperception is that you have to suffer through this and you don't. And I can tell you, and I can tell you, I've seen so many patients and I've seen them going through the different stages and it is almost like different stages of brief where your first.[00:17:00]

  Feeling it, and then you feel really bad, and then you go through resistance, and then eventually you just can't sustain that resistance and you end up surrendering. And sometimes you get tired or a little depressed before you get your energy back, and then you feel more flow. And this is when you really become conscious of every, you know, the whole process that's happening.

  But I do see people finding peace before a baby. Then just subsequently, I think just because of the icing on the cake, they end up having the baby. And it comes in divine timing, like you said. And many times it's always in hindsight, when people do have the baby they're meant to have, they look back and they say, I wouldn't have changed a thing.

  It's of course after everything, but then you don't have that exact baby that you have. And I've even had a woman, um. She has been trying to conceive. It was secondary. So she had her first baby and then it took like [00:18:00] six years. She was trying and she kept having miscarriages and even at one point she'd only conceive at certain times of the year.

  So she actually avoided those times because she was afraid that she was gonna miscarry again. But she was still coming to me for acupuncture. So as you can see, she was kind of having this resistance within herself 'cause she wants to get pregnant, but then she's afraid. So one, she was seeing me for like a full year that next time she was coming into the fall season, which happens to be actually a time where a lot of people do conceive.

  And I said, no, try this time. Allow yourself to try this time I'm here and I'll be supporting you. She's like, don't hold yourself back. And what do you know? She got pregnant. Kept the baby. Even her daughter was afraid to like let herself get excited, which is heartbreaking. But luckily she was sending me pictures with a big belly and she ended up having the baby, and now she has two kids.

  But it's, it's crazy how like [00:19:00] the, the whole journey can take you to so many different places and those places are up and down and it really is, uh, it could be a very confusing journey, but ultimately I see a lot of people do get to the place of peace.

  Susan Singer: Mm-hmm. And I do, I, you know, I never really knew about resistance. I never really understood that that, that that's like a big thing, that actually resistance is fear. You have to step through. There's something in like you're afraid to go on the other side.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: is courage. The other side is the light.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: realize, like she doesn't, didn't realize she was actually energetically resisting that. And it's just, it can be a big stop. It can be a big halt that you don't even realize you're doing. And I think, yeah, I think for me I was very much in, even though you know, it's so, even though I'm in all this feminine energy [00:20:00] and I knew I needed to calm my nervous system down and go through this whole, the whole process, I was still very masculine in my mind. And I wasn't able to connect the two of what was really going on in my body. And really, and I think the big thing is also trusting myself and trusting I had all the answers in me and I was just too scared to, I. Express them, or, you know, maybe I should have went with this other doctor instead of this doctor.

  Or maybe if I really, truly believe that if I just did this one method, it would've worked, but yet I was listening to other people. I, I just think it's also, it's very important to be able to take the time and sit with yourself because your body knows, like you are, you

  Michelle Oravitz: It's true a hundred percent.

  Susan Singer: Have it all in you, and when you can come from that surrendering place and honoring it's, you know, again, easier said than done, but I do, I am aware [00:21:00] because I'm, you know, we're all always growing even after this and having my baby, it's like I can look back and be like, interesting if I would've just come at it this way. But was never gonna work because. It's divine timing. I was supposed

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes.

  Yep. It's so amazing. I mean, that is just like mind blowing

  and it's such a great lesson. It's so poetic. Like it's crazy how life can be so poetic in that way.

  Susan Singer: there's signs along the way.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: signs.

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, I will say this. I am starting to think that I should write a book just about the stories that I'm hearing from my patients on the signs that they're getting.

  It is pretty like. It's really mind blowing. I hear so many stories about signs people get for their spirit, babies, and I see such specific things happening that are basically [00:22:00] confirming that these signs are real. I mean, it's crazy. Like I like people even knowing the gender be like before they even conceive

  and getting signs before like after Coming to me for a year and nothing happening, but also being on the journey for like sometimes five years. It's wild. It's really wild. And then kind of, it's confusing at first 'cause you're getting signs and you're not really seeing anything happen. But then eventually something does happen. And what's really crazy is I recently had a sign come to me myself, like my patient was telling me about these two things, two specific things I don't wanna mention yet 'cause she's still on the journey, but two specific symbols.

  Or a name and a symbol. And she had mentioned that and she said that she saw it and it was pretty crazy. But then I'm driving and I literally within a minute, see the two and I was like, oh my God, I've never actually had the sign for my patient. Like it's never been something in my kind of like [00:23:00] world in my movie.

  Susan Singer: That's amazing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: It's so awesome.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. It really is. So tell us about what you're doing now, 'cause I know you're doing a lot of fun exciting

  ventures and

  endeavors.

  Susan Singer: great how, everything comes back full circle. It's you know, whether you're, again, everything we just talked about with trying to conceive to the work that you are doing in the past to projects that you've created in the past and the loves that you've had in the past.

  Everything again is signs. It's like unfolding.

  So my biggest intention, and that's also big for the journey you might be on, is to really. Sit and have and understand your intentions and what you want. So my biggest intention when I moved to a new place at 40 was to find a group of like-minded women and really like soul led, like-minded women.

  I'm very into connecting to source and I love having conversations [00:24:00] on spirituality, and I am coming from a place of abundance and higher selves and always having all those conversations you know, we ended up moving to Tennessee and then I had Natalia and then COVID happened, and then all this stuff.

  Well fi like about four years after we moved and I had this intention. I was sitting around a table on my birthday and there was these women there and all like my, my new friends and I'm like, wow. It really happened. I actually made, I had such a, that was my biggest thing because for me, who I am and what my chart says, and everything I can see from now until who I am today, I am 45.

  I, I see. What excites me is community is being around other women, and I was sitting around this table, I'm like. My community. It, it happened, it's here. Like this is amazing. And cut to, I was finally now getting out in the world and [00:25:00] I really wanted to get back into yoga and really start building the wellness community where I live. And I went to, I remember I was just locked in with my daughter because she was so young at this one time, and I finally decided to go to this networking event. I went to one. going to this one event, I met this woman who wanted, who learned about me, and she wanted me to be working with her. We wanted to do a retreat who then connected me with this other woman, and we were, we started a we did, we were chatting and we realized that we wanted to create a really powerful yoga biohacking inspired retreat, and we wanted to connect with Mother Deep, with Mother Nature, we called it gals off the grid. And that, and we did this one retreat, and then one of the women had other things going on so she can no longer do it. And this one gal, her and I just completely on such a level of our, we were just talking about our dreams and our visions and what we, [00:26:00] we've always wanted to build a community and have international retreats and connect deep with Mother Earth and learn all about that.

  And my big thing was I wanted to do this with someone who. Really knew the body and really knew the feminine health, the way to health in a way that's very connected to Mother Earth. she happens to be a somatic practitioner on so many modalities, whether it's. Frequencies and tuning forks and tapping and reiki and just connecting intuitively to, she's certified in she's an epigenetics coach, so that's really profound and big.

  So now her and I formed a business. We still have the name gals off the grid, and it's really a place for soul led women. To connect with really their, what your soul has been craving, where you know that you're on a mission to be bigger than you are. And we feel [00:27:00] that with the work that we've done, we have over 40 plus years of professional work together that we've created and then our own personal. Lives have got to where we are and we've created these six roots. Like we really hold gals off the grid as just imagining your fingers, your body just rooting into Mother Earth. So these pillars really focus on the dynamic of, and the essence of. If you can accomplish and really activate these six pillars in your life, will be that much closer to creating the life of your dreams, and you'll be able to activate your own roots. So our roots that we talk about are community, mind, body. Ancient wisdom, spirituality, like our ancestor, these, the indigenous people in our, in this world, the knowledge that they have. So really integrating ancient wisdom and modern science. Also, your intuition and your [00:28:00] awareness.

  So being able to bring all of these pillars into your life. And UN and starting to understand them. We really teach you how to do that. So that's the main form of our community. And within that, we have a monthly membership where we guide you through these pillars. They're very seasonal. We work with the, with the wheel of our own life, with the new moon and the full moon and the

  Michelle Oravitz: Love that.

  Susan Singer: and getting her period and not getting it, and really the flow of the feminine energy.

  So we bring that element into. Into the whole community. We have quarterly we have quarterly like retreats that you can do live in, in person. We have international retreats, we always have like the connection of somatic healing, where we're always doing when we're on our monthly calls, whether it's. or yoga or tapping or things to really ground you. And then we have like a library of all of these tools within the membership that you can always go [00:29:00] back to. So we're always busy. We got things going on, we're on

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. That's awesome.

  Susan Singer: so much. So we're on the podcast, you know, walking and being able to just feel like, you know what?

  I need a little more oomph today. Like, I'm

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: tap into my community. I said with, you know, being part of the fertility community is like, ah, you still don't wanna be a part of that, but here we are. Like this is

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: that will just light you up. And another big thing that was so powerful, I know for my co-founder with me is Valentina, is that feeling like you're not connected with people that understand you.

  Like you're on a different frequency, you're elevated,

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: is on. You're trying to have a conversation, but no one's understanding what you're saying. Piece you're on, you're on a different radio station. That's what he was saying. I'm like, I feel

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: doesn't know what he I'm talking about because it's like you literally have to turn the radio station

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: you.

  And

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Susan Singer: it's this is where we are. Like, you're gonna hear us, you're gonna [00:30:00] be with us. We're gonna support you. Exactly. Like showing up to where you are. So it's, we're very. In the thick of things and creating these wonderful events for you. And it's just, it's like, it's exciting. So that's what I'm saying.

  It's like community has always been around and try and just being with people that can help you and support you and guide you to live your, you know, highest life is, is why we created this community.

  Michelle Oravitz: I love that. I absolutely love it, and I think that as humans we have so much potential. And I think that having that reflected and that energy and that soup of community can make such a difference because we reflect to each other to one another. First of all, what we see that might be a little different because.

  We're drawn to things like that. It's because we feel within us, it's kind of like you were saying, you're like thirsting and craving. We feel within us that there's something more,

  that there's something that more that we wanna see. And so when you're getting [00:31:00] minds together and hearts together, you could do, you can move mountains, I believe.

  Susan Singer: Yeah, and women just having a circle of women together, the power of that. I have land out here and we do a lot of full moon ceremonies and forest bathing and

  Michelle Oravitz: Love that.

  Susan Singer: out on the land where we're literally connecting with. The Indians that have been there, we had a historian come to the land and hundreds of years ago, the Chickasaw Indians lived on that land.

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Susan Singer: day we did a forest bathing event. And really forest bathing is where you're just walking in meditation through nature and being like really quiet and still, and I was explaining to the group that was there. The Chickasaw Indians were here, and I was talking about somehow, I, I was talking about my fertility journey. I was wearing one of my beaded bracelets that my friend gave me while I was getting in the process of getting pregnant. And while I was talking [00:32:00] about it, my bracelet popped off

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  Susan Singer: and it was

  Michelle Oravitz: Was that moonstone by any chance?

  Moonstone.

  Susan Singer: No, it was, it was actually, oh, I forget the ki It was a white, it was a white stone. It was white beads. And then there was a, silver one, like, I forget the name of it, but so I

  Michelle Oravitz: That's crazy.

  Susan Singer: them in the o in the creek 'cause there's a creek on the land. And then everyone left and I felt this big pole to come back to the land. So I sat there by myself and I'm not joking. Like I felt the energy of the women on that land. I was crying and crying and crying, and I don't know why. I felt like I was shedding their tears. And ever since then, I've had a spirit guide with me.

  One of the women that was on that land

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow, that's amazing.

  Susan Singer: has been by my side. And I feel like, And we had a [00:33:00] medium out there, like

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Susan Singer: intuitive woman out there, and she was like. They are so happy you're here to bring this energy and share it with other women and you are just doing like keep doing this.

  You are a steward. Like we all are

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow, that is so

  powerful,

  Susan Singer: on now, we're like it's, and that's what I mean. We're bringing back this indigenous this. We're understanding more the

  Michelle Oravitz: the connection.

  Susan Singer: we have with the land and mother earth, and that's just another part of fertility and it's just. that's what I say, like

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh yeah.

  Susan Singer: forming back and, and coming back full circle of the work that I did in the past to where I am today and it's just

  Michelle Oravitz: Wow. That's so freaking cool. Susan. I'm telling you like I. This is amazing 'cause I'm so glad we connected. Like, it just brings me back to that initial connection that we had because connecting with your spirit, I really love your spirit. I, I feel like we've always had that soul [00:34:00] sister connection

  from the beginning.

  But this is so powerful. Like everything that you're telling me is so powerful and it speaks to me on so many levels because I always felt, you know, you know, I'm an artist and I'm also a healer. And I remember one person told me a long time ago, it was just somebody I actually learned Reiki one with.

  'cause I was really intrigued by the healing aspect of just the body. And back then I was doing architecture and she said, you know, you're an artist, but you're also a healer. And she goes. The same energy. That comes through your hands to create is the same energy that comes through your hand to heal. And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.

  And so I always felt like I was channeling some kind of goddess energy. And then it kind of dawned on me, I think a couple years back that it was guin. I could just kept feeling guin, who's the female? Goddess of compassion and fertility. Oh, look at that. Susan, just in case you guys are listening to [00:35:00] the podcast and not on the YouTube, she's showing me a Guan deck of cards.

  Of course, of course. I mean, obviously, so what's crazy is I felt her, and I feel her through my art and I feel her through my work, and I feel a lot of like heart centered. I feel like my heart connects with my patients as I'm treating them. And I remember. Energy Medicine by Jill Blake Way. She talks about that and she talks about how the heart coherence really makes that connection.

  So my point is, as I had a reading with, I'm trying to, oh my gosh, I'm so bad with names these days. Um, I had, oh, Dana. She's a, she's a intuitive and Dana Childs. I had to say her name. I have to give her the credit. So Dana Childs gave me a reading and the first thing that comes out of her mouth, and I have not talked about Guan to anybody.

  She goes, first thing that comes up is Guan. She works with you. And I was like, I know. I know she does. How do you know? [00:36:00] But I guess, you know, 'cause you're connected. It was really crazy. So anyhow, I totally get that whole thing. I literally feel guided by her. I feel the love in my heart with her. It's wild.

  Wild.

  Susan Singer: I know.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Pretty cool stuff. So how can people, first of all, I'm just so happy you're here. But how can people find you? How can people find out about your membership, like what you're doing, your podcast? All of it.

  Susan Singer: So if you're still interested in maybe hearing more about my fertility journey and who I've had on my podcast, that's still live, so that's Goddess Mama Fertility. then everything today that's going on is gals off the grid.com and you can go to our Instagram at gals off the grid.com and we are, that's the best way to get to find out about everything that we're doing.

  We have on summer solstice, we're doing a amazing, it's a rooted. Soul body [00:37:00] activation. And so it's like a class that we're doing online. You can grab it on the go and that really helps you understand we're all about and moving into if you're interested into the monthly membership that we have.

  So yeah, the Summer SOLs is so great to have that. And it's cool because since we're, we kind of say we're, we're gals off the grid, we're kind of off the grid. We don't necessarily so much wanna be online. So to learn more about what we're doing, it's great to connect with us in that way and send your email so you can have first dibs on learning about all of our different retreats and all the events that we're having.

  And yeah, you can find all of that out on Gals off the grid and it would just be wonderful. And I am always here for anyone that wants to talk about their journey and where they are today. I am an open book and I love to share and I love to guide and help people. I feel like that's. Again, through my own heart of, of how I can give back and just a huge part of my, of my soul's [00:38:00] purpose.

  And thank

  Michelle Oravitz: I love that.

  Susan Singer: for being, for us to be doing

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes.

  Susan Singer: great to see you.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's about time. It's been too long. So I'm really happy to have you back. And you guys, if you ever want check out her first episode. Uh, Susan's first episode on, uh, episode three of this podcast were on like 300 and something. I mean, yeah. So she basically was like the beginning, the, the.

  Early the, the original.

  Susan Singer: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: So Susan, this is amazing. I knew it was gonna be amazing, but it exceeded my amazing expectations. So thank you so much for coming on today.

  Susan Singer: Thank you for having me.

  [00:39:00] [00:40:00]

Ep 343 Optimising Implantation, Egg Quality, and Hormonal Health with Laser Therapy with Lorne Brown

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Lorne Brown (@lorne_brown_official), a leading expert in integrative reproductive health and the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre. We explore the groundbreaking potential of low-level laser therapy (LLLT),  also known as photobiomodulation, and how it can support fertility, egg and sperm quality, and overall reproductive health.

Dr. Brown breaks down the science behind this innovative, non-invasive therapy, revealing how light can stimulate mitochondrial function, regulate inflammation, improve blood flow, and even support the nervous system. We also dive into the fascinating history of how this therapy was discovered for fertility by accident, the results of clinical research, and why dosage, wavelength, and placement matter when using this technology. Whether you're navigating IVF, struggling with unexplained infertility, or looking for additional support on your path to conception, this episode is packed with valuable insights.


Key Takeaways: 

• Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) or photobiomodulation enhances mitochondrial function, which is key to egg and embryo quality.

• The therapy can improve blood flow, regulate inflammation, reduce oxidative stress, and support nutrient absorption at the cellular level.

• It also helps balance the autonomic nervous system, shifting the body into parasympathetic mode to support reproductive health.

• Dr. Brown shares clinical data showing improved blastocyst rates and live births using LLLT before IVF transfers.

• Not all laser systems are created equal—dosage, wavelength, and delivery matter for therapeutic benefit.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Discover The Wholesome Fertility Journey:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 343 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbit, and today I am excited to welcome Lauren Brown back to the podcast he was on previously on episode 3 31, where he gives a little bit more of an introduction on his background, and we spoke a lot about consciousness and fertility, but today we're actually gonna be speaking about something really interesting.

  Which is laser therapy when it comes to fertility health, specifically low level laser therapy. So I'm really excited for him to come back on and speak about this. And if you are on the fertility journey, I highly recommend you listen to this episode. He is going to be covering a lot and really explaining what it is and why it's so important and how it works.

  So stay tuned.

  [00:01:00]

  Lorne Brown: Welcome back to the podcast, Lauren. Excited to have you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Michelle, I'm so excited to be back with you as well. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in the past. Really excited about the conversation we had that showed up on the Conscious Fertility Podcast with you, and happy to talk low level laser with you today.

  Lorne Brown: Yes. So last time we got really deep on the conscious fertility and spirituality, and I. Love that quantum. And today we're gonna talk a little more about laser therapy and how that can benefit fertility, egg quality. I'm very excited to hear more about this.

  Michelle Oravitz: Same. I, how do you wanna start? 'cause we could go, you and I could go for hours

  Lorne Brown: we can, [00:02:00] for sure. So for people who have never really heard of laser. Therapy low level laser therapy. Right. That's that's really LLLT

  Michelle Oravitz: Triple L, low level. It's got a couple of names. So in the old days they called it cold laser 'cause it's the non heating laser, the class three B that we're ta that you and I are gonna talk about. Then it became known as low level laser therapy because they wanted to differentiate between the high powered ones.

  Michelle Oravitz: Like there are lasers that can cut and burn and sculpt you. People know about sculpting, hair removal surgeons, about cutting. That's not what we're talking about. So it had the term low level laser therapy which is what I think the public knows. So we usually use that term a lot. But in the scientific community, they adopted the term photo biomodulation photon.

  Michelle Oravitz: Photons, light, bio, the body modulation, can it make change to the body? And and that's because systems have both laser [00:03:00] diodes and LEDs as their way to put photons into the body. So low level laser therapy is inaccurate 'cause some of the systems are using LEDs. but we use 'em interchangeably, photobiomodulation and LLLT, low level laser therapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: If people are Googling it, that's what you would put in.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, because that's, I think that's like the common term for it where people are gonna search it for it now. I remember watching a video like years ago, I think it was during the pandemic, talking about like really the sun and cellular melatonin and then talking about really, 'cause that that's kind of what.

  Lorne Brown: The idea is, or part of it is really getting that cellular melatonin and that that light to induce better quality for eggs and cells. So for people who are first heard about this and don't know anything about it, can we break it down like in layman terms so that people can really understand what it is?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so I, I'll share [00:04:00] with you kind of, from our audience perspective, kind of what they really wanna know. 'cause I, I get these questions a lot, so I'll share that. And, and I think it's important to share kind of just how it kind of started with fertility. In general with low level laser therapy there's this mechanism that I think we can talk about with fertility and you were mentioning like mitochondria health, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So, people in fertility understand mitochondria is really important that egg cell when it becomes the embryo, when it's, when it's disseminated by the, or fertilized by the sperm that embryo mitochondria health is dependent or determines if it has enough energy to divide, whether it's in the fallopian tube.

  Michelle Oravitz: If it's in the IVF lab trying to grow it to the blasts, so that comes from the egg that goes, becomes the embryo, it's the eggs, mitochondria, and then that energy for implantation also requires a lot of energy and that comes from the mitochondria and the mitochondria, the battery of the cells. They create the cellular currency, a TP.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's where I [00:05:00] think it all started. People got excited about it because of. When we think of women in, once they get into what they term advanced maternal age, and we have less fertility or increase in miscarriages or increase in birth defects the current scientific understanding is because these eggs are older, they have more mitochondrial dysfunction and therefore there's more genetic errors.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so the idea is maybe the light can rejuvenate these eggs. So that's kind of, I think, the thought process. But that was way back when I kind of wanna share what we know it's, it's doing and then share some of the mechanisms we understand, which is why people like yourself and me got really interested in low level laser for fertility because the mechanism is very promising.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the, it kind of. So many discoveries happen by mistake, and, and that's when it came to photo modulation for fertility. Dr. Ro [00:06:00] is a medical doctor, pain specialist in Japan, and this was in the nineties. He was treating a woman for a woman with back pain. And he had this approach that he would, and she, by the way, was not menstruating anymore.

  Michelle Oravitz: She was in that men early part of her life of menopause. He. he. would always treat around the neck and a few other areas to increase blood flow. So he had this approach where he wants to increase blood flow head to toe because if there's an injury in your back or your knee or your big toe, if we can bring blood flow to that area.

  Michelle Oravitz: That will support the healing. So he treated, he did that treatment where he created blood flow head to toe. And in his research, he actually has a really interesting diagram using thermal photography to show the increase in blood flow, head to toe after, before a session of laser therapy and then after first, and then after the fifth, and it was just quite dramatic, the change. So he treated her for several treatments. He also would go locally, so if you had knee [00:07:00] pain, he would treat with the laser over the knee pain he used, in her case, she had back pain, so he did low level laser therapy over her back as well, and she had a series of treatments and her back pain was resolved, but her cycle came back and she wasn't actually.

  Michelle Oravitz: She didn't wanna have her cycle back. So she was concerned about it and, and unhappy about it and complained to him is the story I heard. And he was like, look, I don't think it has anything to do with what I've done. Go speak to your gynecologist because you're bleeding again, and just to make sure everything's okay.

  Michelle Oravitz: In that same calendar year, another woman with back pain who wasn't menstruating was treated. So again, he did the treatment to increase blood flow. So those points you'll see in my clinic, we do a lot of points around the neck. So we're getting the carotid, the vagus nerve, a feature called the stalet ganglia.

  Michelle Oravitz: And treated her back and did several treatments and her back pain was resolved and her cycle came back and she would bleed for a couple days, almost every three to five weeks. So then he thought, huh, if we're bringing blood flow, [00:08:00] if this treatment causes blood flow, head to toe. Maybe we're bringing blood to the ovaries and we're helping rejuvenate these ovaries, and that's why these women start to cycle again.

  Michelle Oravitz: So we went and talked to a colleague, gynecologists and in their gynecology department to do a pilot study. And in that pilot study there was around 74 women. The English translation is severe infertility. I think the average age was 39. I think they had on close to nine years of infertility and 15 a RT cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they showed an over 20% pregnancy rate and over 60% live birth rate, which was quite good for that demographic. So they increased that study to 700 women and their pregnancy rate was around 23%. And the live birth rate was 50%. So that's kind of how it started. I.

  Lorne Brown: I remember seeing that study. Was that the one where they had a 50-year-old?

  Michelle Oravitz: I

  Michelle Oravitz: don't, I'd have to look.

  Lorne Brown: I actually didn't even pick up on that, believe it or not. I didn't pick up on [00:09:00] that. One of my patients did, who was a nurse, and I sent it to her. 'cause I sent her and she was like the 50-year-old. I'm like the 50-year-old.

  Lorne Brown: And then I went back and round. I'm like, oh my God. Yes, there, there was a 50-year-old.

  Michelle Oravitz: and I'd have to re-look at the data. I don't, you know, 'cause these

  Michelle Oravitz: are people natural or IVF maybe I don't think in Japan they don't do donor eggs, so it wouldn't have been a donor egg cycle. That's why Japan's so interesting to see what they do because they don't back, back in the day anyhow, they weren't doing donor egg cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they will bring in and try anything to help a woman conceive with their own eggs. 'cause they don't have, the opportunity in Japan to use donor eggs, if it's warranted. so that's kind of how it started. And then, I mean here we are now recording this in 2025, right? This is the nineties is when they had this study.

  Michelle Oravitz: I learned about this in the mid two thousands. So, you know, almost uh, over 10 years after they had done their, that first study. And I came across there was a study in 2008, an abstract that was published [00:10:00] where they did laser acupuncture, a little different than low level laser therapy 'cause they were just putting photons into acupuncture points.

  Michelle Oravitz: And in that case, they had a sham laser and a real laser and a control group. Acupuncture group. And the laser acupuncture group. And this was just immediately before and after transfer. There were. Fresh day three. So it was a while ago, right? 'cause now most cycles are blasis transfers. Most not all, and most are quite often frozen, not fresh.

  Michelle Oravitz: But this was a day three study fresh transfers. So they did that acupuncture study known as the polys protocol before and after. But they used. The laser acupuncture sham. Sham means the laser didn't work. It, it still beeped, but it didn't actually give off any photon. So the doctor nor the patient nor the acupuncturist knew they were getting laser or not laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: And in that group, the laser acupuncture had a 15 one 5% increase in implantation. And that's just on transfer day. 'cause remember, all you're doing is helping with [00:11:00] uterine receptivity with one treatment. Right. Transfer day. What UR was doing was more about egg and embryo quality 'cause he was treating them for a series of treatments.

  Michelle Oravitz: in that, in that case. And then I learned about Anne-Marie Jensen, who's a physiotherapist, trained in low-level laser therapy. And she just did some chart reviews and she shared some pretty. Ob impressive success rates with people using her system called the Giga laser that she has. We have one in Vancouver as well, a giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: And she would treat them three times a week in the follicular only. So before OB up to ovulation or if they're in an IVF up until transfer day. And so that worked out. If it's, you know, if you're menstruating fairly regular, that'd be six treatments a cycle, and she would do on average at least three to six

  Michelle Oravitz: cycles. long is each exposure?

  Michelle Oravitz: The exposure for the giga laser, it's program six is 23 minutes. So they'd have 23 minutes and she, since [00:12:00] that she's written a book and since then she's done another chart review from her data in 2021. 'cause in that the, the one where she showed really optimistic success rates with her giga laser. And we'll talk about the mechanism, why I think the giga did so well in her case.

  Michelle Oravitz: She does a lot of body work like so stretching yoga and breaking up scar tissue. So they would have the laser on the giga hovers over while she was working on their abdomen. Right. But she had a group in 20 20, 1 of 60 women where they had no practitioner, no treatment. They would just come in and do self-serve with the giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: We do this in ACU balance now too. They can just book the giga. They have to have an initial consult for safety and make sure we can set up a plan for them. And it, and it's, it's a good. A good choice for them. So she does that in her clinic and they would come in on average two to three times a week, and she looked at their success rate based on age and again, really good.

  Michelle Oravitz: Results using her system, the giga laser. And for those that you know, you don't need the giga laser it's [00:13:00] nice 'cause if you wanna repeat what somebody else is doing that's why I like having the giga. 'cause Anne-Marie has so many cases that she could share with us. But you know, if you look at the Giga has like 36 laser diodes plus 144 LED diodes, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So it's a lot of lights that they have. So it covers a large area. But if, you know, if you play with the math a practitioner can try to replicate that with their system. It may require more time or other things, but you can do your best to replicate. Here's now where we get into the mechanism and, and there's been more studies. I'll, I'll give one more research and then I want to kind of talk about the mechanism and why I think it's of interest and hopefully more research will, will come down the pipeline on using low level laser therapy. So there was a study done in, in mice that I thought was really interesting where they lasered just one ovary.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they literally did an incision, pulled out the ovary, lasered it. Put the ovary back in, stitched up [00:14:00] the mouse and put it through an IVF cycle. And the mice that had their ovaries lasered that ovary, so if it was the left only versus the right that had better they had a better response to the, to the IVF and they made better embryos.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that was a pretty interesting study. Now, now, now the mechanism, like why are we interested in what can be happening? Because we have a sense that it can help. Annemarie's done a lot of case reporting. There have been studies now using lasers for advanced paternal age and PCOS endometriosis.

  Michelle Oravitz: Again, I'm talking low level laser therapy. I wanna keep. Repeating that Michelle. 'cause somebody's a physician may be thinking they're laser and going,

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's

  Michelle Oravitz: we're talking class three Bs, low level laser therapy. And so PCOS endometriosis, sperm, so studies on sperm as well. There's studies using it where people have had recurrent implantation failure.

  Michelle Oravitz: So they've done. [00:15:00] Multiple IVF cycles with genetically screened embryos. And then they do the laser and, and they see an improvement in that implantation uterine receptivity. There have been studies just looking at the uterus and Petri dish and doing different doses of laser showing enzymes and gene expression for uni receptivity.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. So, you know, we're starting to understand the mechanism, so we're seeing that it can help in some cases and, and here's why I got interested in it. So obviously like you, when I learn of something that can help our patients, I get very interested. They're so motivated, they invest so much time, money, and emotions into this journey.

  Michelle Oravitz: When I heard about the 2008 abstract I called the IVF clinic. I talked to one of the IVF doctors involved in that clinic. In that study, I talked to the acupuncturist and we started using that laser. We actually bought that laser and started just doing transfer

  Lorne Brown: And this is the giga laser.

  Michelle Oravitz: This was the Luminex laser back in 2008.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause that's what was used in the transfer day study. That company's outta business now. [00:16:00] I still have the Luminex lasers, but when they have issues, you know, they're, I don't have anybody to repair them yet. I have a lot of laser systems in my clinic over the years, but that was kinda the first system I bought.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause I wanted to replicate what they're doing in the IVF setting and so, that's, you know, a system we used to just lose on use on transfer day. Then I heard about Oshiro and I started learning more. There was oh, the Brain's Way of Healing by Norman Dets. Chapter four was on using a laser for people with brain injuries, but he started sharing a couple cases of women that had endometriosis and aosis.

  Michelle Oravitz: And Fred Khan is a vascular surgeon who went into laser therapy, and he's passed now, but I got to meet him several years ago. He had noticed that when he was treating these women that their pain and inflammation would go away, and a lot of them wouldn't need surgery

  Michelle Oravitz: because of

  Michelle Oravitz: this.

  Lorne Brown: incredible.

  Michelle Oravitz: And just another tangent.

  Michelle Oravitz: When I was visiting Australia, I went to Roberta [00:17:00] Chow's Clinic. She's known for her publication in the Lancet, really respected medical journal journal for using low-level laser therapy for neck pain. I. Showing positive results. And she's a medical doctor, trained in acupuncture, trained in low level laser therapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: And when I was at her clinic they shared that they do see a large number of women diagnosed with endometriosis. And a lot of them had had symptom relief and had gone on to conceive naturally with the diagnosis of endometriosis.

  Lorne Brown: Hashimoto's

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, there's, it's been used, you know, great point. There is some studies using it on the thyroid.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause we used to think not to do it over the thyroid, but now for Hashimoto's and thyroiditis, they have shown that it, it can help with that as well. And so, going back to like that research and, and studying what and, and why we like this mechanism is the laser understanding is the mitochondria function.

  Michelle Oravitz: So we've heard about that. But when. When Oshiro thought it [00:18:00] was blood flow that he thought, oh, maybe it's 'cause we're increasing blood flow, that we're seeing ovarian rejuvenation. So maybe this is why it's helping. I was thinking, I wonder if there's something else because hey, we do acupuncture and acupuncture's really good for blood flow as well, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So we got that covered. What else could it be doing? And there was the mitochondria. So, they show that low level laser therapy, when the photons can reach the, the cell that we want it to reach, it will absorb those photons and it will improve mitochondrial function and a TP. And we mention how that's important for early embryo development in the fallopian tube or in the IVF lab and for implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Then we've learned later. 'cause I was trying to think, why did the gig have such good success rates that giga laser system and 'cause they did it just over the lower abdomen. That's where how they did it. And I was thinking, okay, theirs was a much more powerful laser than Oshiro was using a system that has, I think maybe had one to three diodes,

  Michelle Oravitz: but the

  Michelle Oravitz: total.

  Lorne Brown: this on the [00:19:00] lower back, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: He, well, he did it on the lower back for back pain, but his real treatment was around the neck and a point halfway between the nave and the xiphoid are re 12 celiac plexus. And he did that because it increases parasympathetic

  Michelle Oravitz: response. Okay. So increases blood flow. I. So the giga laser people, and again we, we, I, I really do like the laser for the following reasons.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I, I, you know, I was trying to understand, I wonder why the giga lasers got such good results. And I was like, okay, it has more, it's given off a lot more photons than what a Shera was. So we're getting more photons into the body. The size of it is 500 centimeters squared. It's, it covers a large area, so it's not only over the uterus, the Aries, and the fallopian tube, it's over the intestines.

  Michelle Oravitz: You're probably getting a bit of the spleen, the liver

  Michelle Oravitz: as well, you know the organs,

  Lorne Brown: with endometriosis and kinda, you know,

  Michelle Oravitz: You're getting a lot of photons into the lower abdomen. Into the pelvis. Right. And, and a lot more photons. 'cause there's so much more power and you're doing it for 23 minutes. And so I thought maybe [00:20:00] that's why theirs does, has helped since then.

  Michelle Oravitz: Here's what I've learned, 'cause that was back in, you over 10 years ago, right? We're. 15 years ago probably that I learned about it. Like it's somewhere around, where are we? 2025? Somewhere around 20. I've been using it since 2008, but somewhere around probably 2013 ish I really got into, or 2012 into photo bi modulation.

  Michelle Oravitz: And since

  Michelle Oravitz: then

  Michelle Oravitz: we've learned, it's been a while since then, we've learned that it impacts the microbiome. So the gig is over the abdomen. And I was thinking the microbiome, well, we know how much the microbiome is involved in hormonal regulation and in inflammation. Now reproductive medicine has linked implantation to the uterine microbiome.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so you've got a mouth microbiome, you know, gut microbiome and all that stuff is influencing everything, right? And so. I was like, oh, the giga must be helping. 'cause it's also dealing with the microbiome. And the [00:21:00] microbiome impacts skin health. 'cause think of the inflammation, right? Impacts mood. I mean, it impacts our hormones, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So I thought, oh, that's probably a big part of it. And then we've learned that it also helps regulate, I. Blood sugars and think of metabolic disorders like PCOS that have severe blood sugar issues and metabolic disorders. They don't ovulate as well. They may have a lot of eggs, but often there's poor quality because of the environment, right, that these follicles mature in.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so the lasers helping with. Blood sugar regulation. So there's all these mechanisms that it can do, and which is why I, I like the laser and the way I like to share or describe it to my patients is I like to use this metaphor. From Nourish the Soul. Before you plant the seed, it's a Chinese saying, and when it comes to fertility, nourish the soul before you plant the seed and the story goes, you know, if you had a plant and you neglected it and it looked a little withered and dry, rather than composting it, [00:22:00] if you just add more water.

  Michelle Oravitz: Maybe pull some weeds, add a little fertilizer, make sure it's getting sunlight. This plant often can regain, regain its vigor and give off fruits and flowers. You've done this, right? I know. I've done this. You've done this right for a plant. So the plant always had the potential to give off fruits and flowers, but the soil was suboptimal, so the plant couldn't reach that potential.

  Michelle Oravitz: We didn't do donor roots. It's the same roots, same plant, but the soil was suboptimal. So by adding water, pulling weeds, adding nutrients like fertilizer, make sunlight, the

  Michelle Oravitz: plant was able to reach its potential. So in this metaphor, the plant is the egg cell or the sperm cell, right? And the soil is your cellular environment.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so let's look at the laser now from a plant metaphor and think about it from the body's perspective. So. When the plan absorbs sunlight, it creates photosynthesis and it creates energy. Well, same thing. When our [00:23:00] cells absorb light, the mitochondria improves mitochondrial function and improves cellular energy.

  Michelle Oravitz: We need this. When the mitochondria get old and worn out, we get old and worn out and we die. Same thing with the egg cell, right? So it's really important. So there's a mitochondria part, blood flow. What we know as a woman ages her blood flow to the reproductive system decreases, and if we can increase blood flow to the reproductive system, this is a good thing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right. And so we know that low level laser therapy can increase blood flow. This is watering the plant, making sure there's enough moisture so water can get to those roots. So low level laser therapy increases blood flow and circulation. I. If you have nutritional deficiencies, right? So we said we add fertilizer.

  Michelle Oravitz: So, you know, in our practice that would be dietary therapy. That could be supplements, Chinese herbs, but guess what? There's research showing that when you use low level laser therapy, the cells absorb the nutrients better. There's one done with mice on [00:24:00] coq 10. And you know, a lot of our patients take coq 10.

  Michelle Oravitz: So all these supplements that you're taking, you may even get more benefit from them because if the cell is functioning better, it's going to have a better efficiency at absorbing. Think of your body metabolism. You can eat a good diet, but if you have poor digestion, you may not absorb all those nutrients and you are just made up of trillions of cells.

  Michelle Oravitz: So if you are having all these health issues, then these cells

  Lorne Brown: All these supplements that people are taking, all the money they're

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, Yeah, so the laser will help with that. Let's go into inflammation. So inflammation, and there's a term I play with a medical term called inflammaging. And what that is is chronic systemic inflammation. So inflammaging, and when it comes to fertility, we wanna be as biologically young as possible.

  Michelle Oravitz: And with inflammaging, what we have is accelerated biological aging. Due to systemic inflammation, and this leads to premature degenerative diseases. I [00:25:00] say premature fertility issues as well. There is now literature out there and talk about how this chronic systemic inflammation is one of the culprits behind unexplained infertility and miscarriages.

  Michelle Oravitz: We already know it in PCOS, so that is known. And endometriosis, it's so obvious. The inflammation's there, but that subtle inflammation is not always as obvious. And that's what we call inflammaging. So low-level laser therapy has been shown to help with chronic help regulate inflammation. And I say regulate inflammation.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause often we say it reduces, it's more of a regulator. And I'll say this for this reason, you know, when around implantation ovulation, we don't, we don't want people to take anti-inflammatories 'cause we need a little bit of inflammation. Like we do need inflammation in our body for healing. You don't wanna shut it down and that's why you don't take it around ovulation or implantation because that could interfere with implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: Little tangent to tie into why laser's, okay? [00:26:00] 'cause it regulates inflammation. We know this, that's why it's used so much in pain and injuries 'cause it regulates inflammation. So there goes the pain and

  Michelle Oravitz: swelling and accelerates

  Lorne Brown: difference is um, lowering inflammation versus regulating information.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and the difference is as follows, and there's a great back study to, to illustrate this. It's downregulating, the bad inflammatory cytokines, and it's upregulating the good ones. Right, and so it's not shutting it down. When you take an anti-inflammatory, it shuts everything down. The laser is regulating, so some are being reduced.

  Michelle Oravitz: The ones that aren't gonna help us, that cause a lot of pain and infl and swelling, and then some are gonna actually help with the healing. That's why inflammation, when you have an injury and your is a normal response that the body should have. We need it for healing, we need it for ovulation implantation.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the back study, if I may, for a little tangent. They looked at a study and people that have ac acute back pain often when they get on these pain meds. So these anti-inflammatories, these strong [00:27:00] pain meds, they end up with chronic back pain because although they've shut down the pain, the inflammation's, no pain, they also shut down the healing response and therefore later on you end up with chronic back pain.

  Michelle Oravitz: ' cause the Bach didn't get to heal when they did the study. They sh and it was in the NIH that had recommended that. Like acupuncture, massage, yoga, low level laser therapy were suggested to be used before you use pharmaceuticals or NSAIDs. Because of that reason. 'cause it will, the low level laser therapy will regulate.

  Michelle Oravitz: So the difference is when I see people for pain and they come in we will help reduce the pain with the low level laser therapy. 'cause it's bringing down those inflammatory markers that create the pain. In the swelling, but it's not shutting down those inflammatory pathways that are gonna help with healing.

  Michelle Oravitz: Plus we're using, plus the mitochondria that have been damaged and the injury get rejuvenated, so it accelerates healing and reduces pain. If you use an nsaid, [00:28:00] you're just reducing all inflammation. So no pain. But also you're slowing down the healing process and now you're at risk of chronic pain later on.

  Michelle Oravitz: Tying this into fertility, 'cause some people are concerned, oh my god. If it regulates inflammation, maybe I shouldn't do it. It's not like an nsaid, it's not turning off inflammation. It's regulating. Okay. It's a regulating process. And so based on that thinking, not as much concerned. Stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: Stress can. So things that can affect inflammation, since we're talking about inflammation. Inflammation, a bad diet can affect inflammation. Your gut microbiome can lead to inflammation. So we talked about how the laser can help with the gut microbiome. It can't help with your diet. You have to choose a good

  Michelle Oravitz: diet.

  Lorne Brown: to do that by yourself.

  Michelle Oravitz: We know that it helps regulate inflammation in the body, so just general inflammation. Also stress. Stress can cause inflammation. So chronic stress, worry you start to release, you know, more cortisol all the adrenal hormones and that leads to [00:29:00] chronic systemic inflammation too. If you're constantly

  Michelle Oravitz: stressed,

  Lorne Brown: impacts your gut microbiome too.

  Michelle Oravitz: got stress impacts everything, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Because the body.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: When you're under, when your body doesn't feel safe, when it's an alarm, your resources are diverted from digestion and reproduction and to go into survival mode so you could fight or flight. And so, oshiro, when he did his treatment, the Japanese medical doctor, pain specialist, his treatment to help with blood flow was to activate the parasympathetic.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he was doing treatment around the carotid. You talked about that. So happens that if he's treating around the carotid, he's also getting the vagus nerve. The Stite ganglia our stomach 11 and acupuncture. If you get the right dose in there, at least 15 JUULs, we try to aim in our clinic for about 25 JUULs.

  Michelle Oravitz: It can create that parasympathetic response. Just so you know, there's research when they use. So the Western medicine knows this. They do a stoic ganglia injection when people have like thoracic outlet syndrome and [00:30:00] all these issues to kinda free get rid of the pain, right? Well, when you stick a needle in there, you need an ultrasound and it's risky.

  Michelle Oravitz: You, there is, it's a risky procedure.

  Lorne Brown: yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's risky, but. RO showed with low-level laser therapy. If you put in, again, I'll say I like 25 joules. I think looking at research, I'm going by memory here. It had to be at least 15 joules, at least that you get into that area to have the effect. But there was a study that came out recently on using this, the injection for.

  Michelle Oravitz: Post-traumatic stress disorder and anxiety. It came out and they talked about their sleep and their mood and well, not surprising. Why is that impacting PTSD? Why does it impact sleep and anxiety? You're engaged in the parasympathetic, the rest and digest, also known as the breed and feed, and so, and then that's the point he did over the abdomen, which so happens the giga is over.

  Michelle Oravitz: Rent 12.

  Lorne Brown: Right?

  Michelle Oravitz: There's been research when you use low level laser therapy over there, it's, if you wanna search it, [00:31:00] LLT over the Clic Plexus, I think he called it the alpha sweep. He had this process, he did the doctor outta Germany, and it showed a parasympathetic response. So the low level laser therapy can have that autonomic nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Reduction, right? Like, how I, I wanna say differently. That overstimulated nervous system, that sympathetic high drive where you're not sleeping, you get headaches, your neck and shoulders are sore, you're getting hands and feet are cold, poor guts. Easily irritable, poor gut, like digestion. All that are, could be signs of sympathetic overdrive, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: And remember, when you're in sympathetic, don't feel safe. The blood flow is diverted from reproduction, digestion to go to your major muscles, right? Your heart starts pumping. When you are in parasympathetic, the rest and digest breed and feed emphasis on breed for our audience. Blood flow and resources return to digestion and reproduction, and so there goes more blood flow to the [00:32:00] reproductive system.

  Michelle Oravitz: And when your autonomic nervous system is happy, when you're more parasympathetic than sympathetic, we need both. It's a yin yang balance. We're just way too much in sympathetic. Thank you to social media.

  Michelle Oravitz: And all the crazy politicians of our world we're, we're really, you know, in sympathetic a lot. And when we're there reproduction gets down regulated.

  Michelle Oravitz: And we're in this stress response, so it's not surprising that you see more health issues. And there's a study in the West called Psycho Neural immunology, PNI, some now have named it PNEI, psycho Neuroendocrine Immunology. And basically it's the research around your thoughts and your feelings, and we have data to show you that they impact your nervous system, your endocrine system, your hormonal system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Your immune system? Well, the nervous system, hormonal system, immune system, low fertility, that's a [00:33:00] huge, that's gonna affect the whole hypothalamus, pituitary ovarian axis for regular ovulation and the balance of hormones, the progesterone, estrogen, and we start having all these stress hormones and inflammation and poor blood flow.

  Michelle Oravitz: There goes your microbiome. There goes. Optimizing your fertility, right? You're, you're downregulating. So this is why I think acupuncture and I also, if low level laser therapy is used in a certain way, you can really support the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system, which will then help you get into that parasympathetic response.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so when you start to think, and it also one more. The Lolo La Elizabeth laser therapy is shown to help with oxidative stress. Remember we said pulling out weeds from the garden? So oxidative stress is not great for sperm. It's not great for egg quality. And as we age, especially into our mid thirties and beyond, it seems like the cells and the egg cells for sure they've noticed don't have as much resilience to deal with the oxidative stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: They, and so they [00:34:00] get more damaged again, so. That's why a nice antioxidant diet is good and rest and stress reduction 'cause all those things, poor diet. And, and stress can impact oxidative stress in your body. It's just a byproduct of, of being alive. Think of it as when you, you're cutting your lawn the byproducts all that dirty grass on your lawn, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So that's the oxidative stress. But if you put a bag over the lawnmower, you don't make a mess, right? So you want to do things to deal with the. Free radicals. Another people call it body rust as well, oxidative stress or free radical damage. Bottom line is oxidative stress. Too much of it is really harmful to your cells, and particularly the sperm cell and the egg cell and photobiomodulation low level laser therapy has been shown to also.

  Michelle Oravitz: Lower oxidative stress. So when you think about how it has the potential, and I say potential because it's gotta get to that cell and and just putting light on somebody doesn't mean it's gonna work. Like you can [00:35:00] stand in front of your Christmas tree, those are LEDs, red lights and yellows, but I don't think it's gonna have a therapeutic effect.

  Michelle Oravitz: So there's gotta be. There's certain wavelengths that are more beneficial than others. And then there's power that's important and irradiance. Which is another form of how many joules you're getting into this little area, you know? Joules per centimeter squared, for example, and total JUULs. So many people are just putting light systems on them.

  Michelle Oravitz: A lot of them are on Amazon and I don't know, they haven't been studied, so I don't know if they can or cannot help, but. There to be therapeutic. The light does have to get received by the cell, and there's a lot of

  Michelle Oravitz: factors.

  Lorne Brown: the skin to go deep.

  Michelle Oravitz: The potential benefits that are can improve mitochondrial function, can improve blood flow and circulation can support your cell's Ability to absorb nutrients from diet and supplements can help with the gut microbiome, can lower oxidative stress, can regulate [00:36:00] inflammation and calm the nervous system.

  Michelle Oravitz: That to me is why I'm so interested in low level laser therapy, and in our clinic we're usually putting it around the neck. It's over the abdomen, so it's over the ovaries, the uterus and the, and the gut microbiome where you're doing stuff on the sacrum. So we're, we kind of took what they were doing with the giga at Annemarie's clinic and then what we saw them doing with the Japanese group, URS group, how they did around the neck.

  Michelle Oravitz: We call it the modified technique. And then when I talk to. Roberta Chow in Australia and Fred Kahn, they were doing a lot of sacrum work for those that had endometriosis. Put this all together pre COVID. I'm actually going to visit them in a couple of weeks. So I'm going to Japan,

  Michelle Oravitz: so

  Lorne Brown: you.

  Lorne Brown: I

  Michelle Oravitz: see what new, we'll see what more information I have for you.

  Michelle Oravitz: But I, I interviewed Dr. Nakamura. And Ty and Joe who speaks both [00:37:00] Japanese English, who's an acupuncturist, was my translator. Funny story. I'll, I'll tell you the funny story is I wanted, I meet Shiro and so I went. Created a letter and used Google Translate to put it to English, to Japanese, and I sent it to all the clinics I could find in Japan that might be doing fertility and had an o Shiro on their, on their websites.

  Michelle Oravitz: And I sent it. Nobody responded, but I did find takin who is a, who lives in Japan, but was at the time, lived in California, speaks both languages beautifully. And we connected and he became my translator. He did read my letter and laughingly said, you know, there's a hierarchy of, of, of respect when you talk to somebody in Japanese.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he said, he's not surprised. Nobody responded to my letter. Google Translate did not do a good job.

  Lorne Brown: Oh, that's so funny.

  Michelle Oravitz: But, but anyways he introduced me in Acum. He was interesting because this is pre COVID, so we're in 2025 now, [00:38:00] mid 2025. And this was before 2020. I interviewed him and he had already had 10 years of data and when he shared what he was doing, so his 10 years of data, by the way, punchline is.

  Michelle Oravitz: It doubled blasis rates. So people, women that have went through IVF cycle and went to Blasis, you know, but obviously weren't getting pregnant 'cause they keep coming back. If they did a series of laser treatments, a minimum of three to six months with his approach they would have doubled the blasts, the gut.

  Michelle Oravitz: So even though they were three to six months older, they had doubled their blasts. How many embryos grew out to the blasts stage, which takes anywhere between five to seven days to grow out. Right. He's an acupuncturist in a clinic for IVF using acupuncture, low level laser therapy. So he was using the standard Victorian electrical acupuncture protocol for blood flow.

  Michelle Oravitz: So he did that and then he did laser therapy. So I asked, what do you do? Because remember everybody I was meeting, you know, some were doing the [00:39:00] sacrum, some were just doing the abdomen, some are just doing up here. And in our clinic, we started doing it all. You know, neck, abdomen back, and he said, oh, well we do the electrical acupuncture, which we do a lot of that in our clinic with people who are going through IVF.

  Michelle Oravitz: And then he says, I will do kind of the O Sheero style, then I would laser over the ovaries. And then he went and did over the POAL nerve and the sacrum. pretty similar right. And so I came up with my protocol from talking to everybody, and it felt great when I met him because he'd been doing it already for 10 years.

  Michelle Oravitz: I've been doing it for, you know, not very long at that time. And he had data to show that increased blasts rates. So that's kind of my story of low level laser therapy. And in our practice we have many systems. We only have one Giga and from Annmarie Jensen, I interviewed her, so she's on our podcast on the Conscious Fertility Podcast.

  Michelle Oravitz: She gave me the idea, 'cause she has, she had one giga, now she has two and she has one that's made for [00:40:00] self-serve. So people can book online. They have to have it initial, then they book online and they just come in and lie on the giga for 23 minutes after her hours. 'cause she's using the giga for her with patience.

  Michelle Oravitz: So she's hands on just like I use a giga and I'm doing acupuncture at the same time. The gig goes over the acupuncture points. She has it off, off hours and her clinic's set up that you can punch in the code and then as long as you put yourself in the system, can use the giga laser off hours when she's not using it.

  Michelle Oravitz: So in our clinic we have it set up that way too, that people can do self-serve giga if it's not being used in the clinic. For themselves. I will say, 'cause we only have one and there's multiple practitioners in our clinic. It's often used because people are combining it with their acupuncture treatments to get, you know, more

  Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: for your time and money.

  Michelle Oravitz: So,

  Lorne Brown: So

  Lorne Brown: that's the one giga that you have, but what other symptom systems do you use?

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I've, I've, I've tested and played a lot, so the BioFlex system, I've had Luminex [00:41:00] paramedics, what's the one that you have? Cell?

  Michelle Oravitz: Uh, have that Ulua Ulua I use just for facial. And and other probes like we, we have a lot. And if I go back to 2008 he's retired now. He's a pharmacist that was really into low level laser therapy and I went to meet him to, 'cause he had one of the systems I wanted to buy and I told him I was interested.

  Michelle Oravitz: He gave me a book to read like a. Medical textbook on lasers. It was pretty intense. He says, read this first. So I read it, came back because he wanted to be able to have a good conversation and see how serious I was. So I read it, came back with a lot of questions, but he took me, he had a setup of two or three laser systems, one that I was interested in, and then he goes, I wanna show you something.

  Michelle Oravitz: And he takes me to his back office. He opens up the storage area and it's laser and laser systems. It was crazy. And he said, I wanna tell you before you go down this journey. That there is no one laser that fits all, like for all the things you're gonna wanna treat. And as you [00:42:00] get knowledgeable in the laser, you're gonna want different systems because this one's better for this, this one's better for that.

  Michelle Oravitz: And, and they keep evolving, right? So he goes, this is not gonna be a, a cheap habit. And I, I laughed at him thinking, great, fine. I bought my system thinking I'm good

  Michelle Oravitz: and I have spent hundreds of thousands of

  Michelle Oravitz: dollars on systems. 'cause I have a lot of systems that I play with. 'cause I, you know, I look at their data sheet, what can they do?

  Michelle Oravitz: And, and I go for it. Right? I will say my. Interest in the giga is because of Anne-Marie Jensen, because she has such good clinical retrospective, clinical charting that she has done. Like she, she published her, her clinical data that, you know, when something is working, I'm like, great.

  Michelle Oravitz: Like, you know, you've shown it. 'cause most of us when they talk about laser and for fertility, we're quoting research, but we're quoting research on somebody else's system. And so it doesn't mean just [00:43:00] because you're doing LLT that you'll get those results. You do '

  Michelle Oravitz: have to,

  Lorne Brown: like you'd have to be apples to apples.

  Michelle Oravitz: yeah. So, you know, what's the, you know, and there's a, time and power right? Makes a difference. And so to get those total jewels, that energy in there and so, you know, let's say you wanna do four jewels, just make it up. Some systems can do four jewels. In eight seconds, right? Because the power is at 500.

  Michelle Oravitz: Milliwatts, some, some systems to get the four JUULs, it may take a minute. Right. They're both four JUULs. We're learning that slower is better, so it's better to get four jus over a period of time than right away. Think of it drinking from a hose versus a fire hydrant, right? And there's a Goldilocks window, so it's, you know, the metaphors are, are looser.

  Michelle Oravitz: But you know, too little, too fast too in a short time is probably not so great. And that's where more of the high powered lasers are like that,

  Lorne Brown: But you know, that's what it's like being in the sun. That's why morning sunlight is easier [00:44:00] for your body to absorb. And then that, I always compare that, that hose

  Lorne Brown: analogy because if you go in the middle of the day, it's not great for your skin. It's, you know, higher uv rays. And so your body's able to absorb the nutrients a lot better when it's early in the morning or later at night.

  Lorne Brown: Naturally. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, and so the, yeah, I, I give you my joke about the Christmas tree, right? Stand in front of a Christmas tree. I don't think you're gonna get any benefit, even though those are, there's a lot of red LEDs on that, on that tree. A colleague of mine once. I used to do this, people would send me their laser, not their laser, they'd send me their data sheet and I'd look through it and try and do the math.

  Michelle Oravitz: Just like when I looked at the giga before I had a giga. I looked at my systems and I looked at how much was in 23 minutes based on 36 diodes, lasers, and 144 LEDs. How much is going to into the body? Don't forget, it's off the skin, not on the skin. That makes a difference. 'cause there's reflection that happens.

  Michelle Oravitz: So, as I say, like, you know, they say, and again, science is always changing, but [00:45:00] it's not so much how much photons are you're emitting is how much is this, is your body absorbing? That's the key, right? Like it doesn't go well through clothes, right? So you gotta have it on the skin, not over your clothes.

  Michelle Oravitz: You'll, you'll lose a lot based on what I understand at this point in time. Again, science can always change, but the research is you gotta absorb it. And so a colleague. Which I don't do this anymore. I'm saying this 'cause I don't want anybody to send me emails saying, look at my laser system. They would send me and I'd look at one of their systems.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they bought for like $500 and they wanna do laser acupuncture. And I know you kind of want that four to 10 JUULs per acupuncture point. And 'cause it was such a low powered laser, I said, you're gonna have to spend about five minutes or per acupuncture point. She's like, I don't have that kind of time.

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I can't do that. I go, well, that's. If you wanna get that dosage in, that's what you're gonna need to do with that laser. And she goes, well, what can I use this for? And I said, do you ever do presentations? It's an expensive PowerPoint uh, pointer. So, you know, and, and it's not regulated, [00:46:00] the, the machine.

  Michelle Oravitz: So when they test them, some of them. Don't give off the photons. They say they do 'cause it's not regulated. So you just don't know. And so clinicians, you get used to it. You see, you know, pain and injuries and scarring is really great 'cause you can see it change in a short period of time in your clinic. I happen to have a photon reader, so I've taken my systems that I've put them all under there and program it to give off so many photons.

  Michelle Oravitz: And I look at the reader to see if it's giving off the photons they say. Right. So that helps. But not everybody has one of those.

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, well, not everybody gets as in depth as you do, which is great. It's great for you, you know, like for your clinic 'cause you know it's working.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Well you get, you get geeky, right? I like to geek out and, and then the do the part for our listeners is what we've seen out there for pain and injuries and what we've seen for fertility from Osro, the Japanese doctor. And Anne-Marie Jensen is dosage. So time-wise it's not a one [00:47:00] treatment and you're done.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's kinda like, you know, that laser acupuncture study on the transfer day, that was one treatment and done. I'm surprised there was any benefit from just one treatment. She did it and most of them say two to three treatments. A week is what you're looking at. You're looking for minimum three cycles.

  Michelle Oravitz: Think of the a hundred days of follicular genesis. So those last a hundred days are really important for your, eggs or follicles to reach their peak potential. Right? And so, and Nakamura said as well, three to six months, people can go longer, but you usually see some good shift within that three to six months.

  Michelle Oravitz: So you're Anne Marie prefers three times a week in the follicular. So that's, six treatments, a cycle, menstrual cycle. And by the way, if you're on Lupron or you're not trying to conceive same sex couple, there's no chance of a pregnancy. You can do it all month long, right? They just don't want you to put the photons over a developing embryo, so they don't want it over the sacrum.

  Michelle Oravitz: Or over the lower abdomen after ovulation or after transfer. In our [00:48:00] practice we see people all month long, but again, because of our training and understanding in the ltil phase, if we know there's a chance of pregnancy chance. Then we use it differently. So we're using it over certain areas of the spine for nerve innervation that goes to the ovaries.

  Michelle Oravitz: We're using it over the microbiome, so we're using it high up, so kind of the navel up. So we're getting to the, the liver and the small intestines. So getting into that microbiome. Impact as well. And then we continue to do the osiro and other things for st oh stem cell proliferation. I didn't mention that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Below level age of therapy when it's done over certain bones, like the sternum or the tibia. 'cause you gotta access the bone has been shown to increase stem cell proliferation. I mean, if only we could tell those stem cells to go to the ovaries, but at least we're pro causing more of a proliferation, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: So, that's what I would recommend. If you're looking for it you probably want to do it. At least twice a week. The first couple of cycles, ideals, probably three times a week from what we've [00:49:00] seen. And then you can cut it back 'cause you do build up accumulation of photons. Like it kind of has an cumulative effect.

  Michelle Oravitz: So you kind of wanna get that momentum going. And then as the body starts to be more efficient, think about it as the cells are healing. Inflammation's dropping, nutrition's improving mi. The mitochondrias balance, your blood flows improved. It makes sense that you don't need as much 'cause your body's functioning right.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's kind of doing its own thing. Eventually you get to take it away, the laser or everything you're doing because your body is now has that Healing ability primed up. Right. And so that's kind of what we recommend. And for my patients and people around the world, 'cause they like to chat, I sometimes will recommend certain home systems I like.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some people can't get to a clinic like yours or a clinic like mine. So there's a couple of systems I. I did look at that I like, and then I teach them how to use it. How I would use it for these home systems. I have one of these home systems in my home because my family uses it for their [00:50:00] aches and pains,

  Michelle Oravitz: because, so it's not just for fertility, right?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. You, you know, it's kind of like everybody should have one of these in their medicine cabinet. A good laser system for, you know, cuts and bruises and, and tears and aches and

  Michelle Oravitz: pains. It's wonderful. Right.

  Lorne Brown: Which systems do you recommend at home?

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, I like the BioFlex system again, I put it on my reader, so it's giving, they have a home system, so it's giving, I, I could read the photons coming off of it. And they have a couple of uh, programs. So I looked at the programs to see kind of what frequency they've set it at. and it's a nice little pad that fits nicely over the lower abdomen and the sacrum.

  Michelle Oravitz: And they can even put it around the carotid and the vagus nerve. so I teach them how to use that. Paramedics sends people probes. I thought they were, they're more, they're lasers. They're, I, they're more like for professional use. But they seem to they do I not seem, I know they do because I've had the, the public con contacts me saying, I have this paramedic probe how can I use it for fertility?

  Michelle Oravitz: And so they'll set up a [00:51:00] consult and I will you know, we'll sit there and we'll go over it and show them where to put it and how long, et cetera. So those are the two. That I looked at and kind of spent some time with it. I used to, people would contact me and say, can you review this system? Because I bought this system.

  Michelle Oravitz: Can you show me how to use it at home? I. I stopped just 'cause I don't have the time to do that, to learn every system. It takes time to go through it. I have to contact a lot of the manufacturers and a lot of them don't share their actual power and all the things that they say it can do. It's, it's not, I.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sitting in front of my face on the website. It's a big dig. And then unfortunately, a lot of times when I looked into it, I didn't like to be the bear of bad news, but I was like, this is like a Christmas tree in my mind. Like, I don't think this is gonna do anything, even though they spent $3,000 on it. So I, I, you know, I don't wanna be, you know, they shoot the messenger sometimes.

  Michelle Oravitz: I don't want to be the bear bad news. So, I tend not to do that at this point in time. Look at everybody's systems really because of it's just time. I, I [00:52:00] wanna have. Health balance myself, right? So I can't say yes to everything. However, I do consult people and I share with the two systems that I've looked at.

  Michelle Oravitz: I've done enough of that for other people that here's what I would do if I was at home

  Lorne Brown: Yeah, that's great. It's good to know that people have that option in case they don't really have an acupuncturist that has the. You know, high quality system. And this has been great, Lauren. This is great information. I've learned a lot too myself, and it's really fascinating. You should do a seminar on this or have you, done a course on this for

  Michelle Oravitz: I have in process one for us, the profession, and one for the public. So, I said this ages ago, so I'm not even gonna put a date on it, but I do have a window open where I started to go through it with some images and just sharing why the ideas, and then for my colleagues to kind of walk them through what you want to target and what kind of jewels or time you want.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause some places like the carotid is, all about time.[00:53:00]

  Lorne Brown: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: Style ganglia is very important. JUULs how much energy you put

  Michelle Oravitz: So I, and I'll explain that to my, to our colleagues. Um, So then they can look at their system and say, okay, to get 25 JUULs in this area, I need to do it this long,

  Michelle Oravitz: or.

  Lorne Brown: like

  Lorne Brown: That

  Michelle Oravitz: stuff.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that, that's my plan. 'cause that's what I did. Like I have multiple systems and I kept on playing with the math to do this. Right. And we go on site in Vancouver to the Olive Fertility Clinic. They're one of the largest in Canada. They happen to be in Vancouver. I. And we use both acupuncture and laser on transfer day and we go on site.

  Michelle Oravitz: Quick note, if I may, 'cause I forgot to mention this. They did a chart review with us two years of data where we looked at genetically screened embryos, so the PGTs and they, they did this 'cause they wanted to see if what we were doing with the acupuncture and laser was helping with uterine receptivity and they wanted to rule out embryo issue.

  Michelle Oravitz: So that's why they, they wanted to look at genetically screened embryos versus just non-screen, right? Because maybe it's not [00:54:00] implanted 'cause of embryo issue. And our group over that two years of data, those that had the acupuncture. Right before and after onsite at Olive with the laser acupuncture, we had a higher pregnancy rate and a lower miscarriage rate.

  Michelle Oravitz: And then we looked at, again, wasn't a study, it was a chart review, everybody. Then we went and looked at those patients and the ones that did a series of treatments leading up to transfer. So they did acupuncture and or acupuncture and laser for a series of treatments, a minimum of seven before the transfer.

  Michelle Oravitz: Then plus that treatment we do on transfer day, they had a much higher pregnancy rate and lower miscarriage rate. The point is, dosage matters. So if you are doing an IVF and you have somebody in your area, my recommendation is you're going in for a series of treatments. So if you're doing a frozen embryo transfer, at least start around your ashtrays and do that two to three times a week leading up to the transfer. And on transfer day, if they can go on site. And if you're doing a retrieval, you want to do at least a hundred days, right? And if you [00:55:00] have PCOS, if you have endometriosis, if you're in your forties or.

  Michelle Oravitz: Repeated IVF implantations don't work or miscarriages, then you may need even more time. So, don't hesitate. I still, I do a lot of education. I still get people contacting me just for transfer day or a week out from transfer. And we treat what, you know, we, we start, 'cause we've seen it helps just on transfer day.

  Michelle Oravitz: However, we know that if we have a series of treatments for months. Before a transfer or a retrieval we suspect we'll get better results because of that soil that we get to, to support.

  Lorne Brown: Amazing. This is such great information, Lauren, and for people, I know you've been on here before, but if they haven't heard your previous podcast, how can people find you?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. Best thing is to go to accu balance.ca, spelled with one C. It has links to our Instagram. We have so many blogs on low level laser therapy for fertility, so there are a lot if you go into the blog section. So that'd be the best way. And then. The Conscious [00:56:00] Fertility Podcast to subscribe. We pretty much release once a once a week an episode, and a lot of it's on unconsciousness.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's why we had you on there.

  Michelle Oravitz: and sometimes it's just straight fertility with like a reproductive endocrinologist as well. So I say follow me on the Conscious Fertility Podcast and then check out acu balance.ca with one C. And they can grab a free fertility diet. It's on the homepage.

  Michelle Oravitz: That we wrote, and they can look at our blogs that we have on low level laser therapy.

  Lorne Brown: Awesome. Phenomenal. Well, thank you so much Lauren, for coming on today. This was amazing information. I know a lot of people are gonna get benefits from listening to this 'cause I think, you know, you hear these things, you hear about them, but you don't really understand the mechanism, how it works, what it is, and what the difference is really with what you buy on Amazon versus other brands.

  Lorne Brown: So this is really, really tremendous information. So thank you so much.

  Michelle Oravitz: Thank you, Michelle.

  [00:57:00] [00:58:00]

Ep 342 The Hidden Reason Your Fertility May Be Declining—And How to Reverse It

Did you know your fertility could be declining due to something deeper than hormone levels or age? In this solo episode, I explore a powerful yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive health through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): Kidney Qi.

In TCM, the kidneys are not just responsible for filtering blood—they are the energetic source of your reproductive potential. I unpack how Kidney Jing (essence), Yin and Yang imbalances, and pre-heaven vs. post-heaven Qi all influence egg and sperm quality, libido, menstrual health, and even your nervous system. You’ll learn how to recognise the signs of weakened Kidney Qi and discover lifestyle, nutrition, and mindset shifts to nourish this vital essence naturally.

This episode is packed with practical tips and ancient wisdom to help you reverse the hidden energetic causes of declining fertility and move forward with more confidence and vitality.


Key Takeaways: 

• In Chinese medicine, fertility is rooted in Kidney Jing, the essence we inherit from our parents and support throughout life.

• Signs of depleted Kidney Qi can include fatigue, night sweats, low libido, shortened cycles, delayed ovulation, and emotional anxiety.

• Anti-aging and egg/sperm quality are closely tied to mitochondrial health, which reflects the state of your Kidney Qi.

• Lifestyle factors like sleep, stress, nutrition, and warmth (especially around your lower back and feet) can significantly boost reproductive vitality.

• Foods that nourish Kidney Jing include bone broth, goji berries, black sesame seeds, walnuts, seaweed, dark leafy greens, and cooked foods over raw.

• Practices like acupuncture, meditation, and even visualisation can support Kidney Qi and overall reproductive wellness.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: Episode number 342 of the Wholesome Fertility podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into one of the most foundational and fascinating concept and traditional Chinese medicine when it comes to fertility, and that is kidney Q and egg quality.

  Michelle: So in traditional Chinese medicine, the kidneys are considered the root of life, the source of our deepest energy called Jing or essence. And this Jing is what governs our ability to reproduce and to age gracefully and to maintain vitality. I. And this really is something that we see often being reflected in egg quality, which is closely tied to mitochondrial health.

  Michelle: So today I'm going to be talking about egg quality as far as how it relates to kidney chi and how. It is impacted by [00:01:00] lifestyle, food, and even energetic practices that support and preserve your kidney chi. We'll talk about foods that can support both kidney chi and then in turn will support egg quality and how visualizations and nervous system regulation can also help that root energy that supports reproductive potential.

  Michelle: So stick around to the end 'cause I'm gonna be also sharing a great resource on how you can implement certain tools. In order to balance out your nervous system and really optimize it for the best chances of conception.

  Michelle: So traditional Chinese medicine views the kidneys as [00:02:00] being one of the most important organs when it comes to fertility health. Now I know that the kidneys in Western medicine are really organs that filter out your blood to produce urine, but in Chinese medicine it is looked at. As really the essence that we have, not just after we're born, but actually before we're born.

  Michelle: So this is something that is considered pre heaven, qi, pre heaven, kidney chi and essence from the kidneys. So the kidneys and Chinese medicine really are. Central to puberty, and it really starts from there and holding the essence in our bodies that are going to be supporting reproductive health. Not only that, having that kidney chi, we also treat a lot of people who are going through menopause and supporting kidney chi because it really holds the essence of anti-aging.

  Michelle: Because of that, it [00:03:00] is correlated. There's a bridge or a reflection in what we see in Western medicine as higher mitochondrial health when it comes to egg quality. And if you are on the fertility journey, I'm going to guess that you have looked into egg quality protocols and. Already aware of how important it is to have good quality, but also to have good sperm quality because both are really important when it comes to reproductive health.

  Michelle: And both of those are impacted by kidney chi. So with kidney chi overall, one of the things that they look at is kidney yin and kidney yang. So those are really the two opposite aspects of. The yin and the yang that are actually housed in the kidneys. Most of the time women are really rich in kidney yin when they're born, and men are really rich with kidney yang, which is a little more fire and women have a little more cooling.

  Michelle: I. And what you'll find is as women [00:04:00] age and they even go into menopause, they start to lose that cooling aspect, which is one of the reasons why they'll start to get hot flashes because the yin, which is the cooling aspect of the body and the kidneys isn't rich enough at that point. To cool the fire. So what happens is when it gets lower, the fire starts to rise up.

  Michelle: It's not being held, and this is why people will have hot flashes and you'll find also that they'll have a lot of night sweats at night, which means that nighttime, which is a yin time, is not as strong because the body doesn't have as much guin at that time. So it's not able to contain that fire and people will start to sweat at night.

  Michelle: So it's considered almost like a false heat, but it's not really heat because it's just a low yin, which is the low cooling aspect of the body. And similarly, a lot of men will start out with a lot of heat, but then they will end up losing that heat that could [00:05:00] kidney young, which is more of their general like.

  Michelle: Body's preference because it is a more male dominant energy. And when that gets lower, they tend to get colder as they age, and they'll also have to urinate more frequently because the urine is the liquid and if the fire is lower, more liquid will accumulate, and then it can also end up being more edema, which happens often as people age.

  Michelle: So in general, as people age, the yin and yang decline. Now that being said, if you are a woman that is still getting her menstrual cycle and is trying to conceive and is having night sweats, I don't want you to freak out when you're hearing about that as a kidney decline, because a lot of times we as practitioners can help that through herbs and through food.

  Michelle: Support it so it doesn't mean that the game is over.

  Michelle: So one of the biggest things that we look at really in Chinese medicine is the kidney jing. So it's [00:06:00] called the kidney jing, and it is considered essence, and it really is, if you think about sperm, that is kidney jing. And for a woman it's reserves. But more than that, really the essence of it and the quality is kidney jing.

  Michelle: And we are born with a certain amount of kidney jing that we. Inherit from our parents. So that is called pre heaven, Jing. And after we're born, we can support that jing, although we are born with that Jing. So when a woman is told that she's going to be born with all the eggs she'll ever have, that's really the Jing and that's her storage.

  Michelle: And that is something that we can support and nourish, although it's not as easy to accumulate as we age. So ultimately the quantity is something that we'll see often with a MH, but it's more important to have quality than quantity because ultimately when you have the quality, it doesn't really matter because you just need one egg, one good [00:07:00] egg, and one good sperm to make a healthy fertilized egg.

  Michelle: So one of the things that we do see with egg quality is as women age, they will lose their amount of healthy mitochondria and mitochondria are the powerhouses of cells, and normal cells have about a couple of thousand mitochondria while egg cells have hundreds of thousands of mitochondria. And that is because.

  Michelle: The energy that the egg needs in order to fertilize and to become an embryo is really, really high. And because of the fact that mitochondrial health lowers an A TP, which is energy units that are produced by the mitochondria, that also declines. That is one of the reasons why egg quality declines, and it can also impact healthy genetics in the egg as well as in the sperm.

  Michelle: So when we talk about pre heaven chi or post heaven chi or kidney chi [00:08:00] before which we're born with, and then post, what we're really talking about are two aspects of the kidney energy and essence that we have in our lives, and one is one that we're inheriting. Basically the bank account that we inherit from our parents.

  Michelle: And the other is really how we choose to live our life and are we having a healthy lifestyle? Because through eating right and doing well for our bodies, we can support healthier gene. So in that sense. We can feel a little more empowered because it's not just something that we have to rely based on genetics.

  Michelle: It is something that is also within our hands. So of course, genetics are genetics and some of the things that we inherit we can't really control. What we can't control is how we choose to live our life and we can choose to eat healthier and to manage stress a little better and to do things really actively and get into habits that are supportive of our kidney chi.

  Michelle: So [00:09:00] here are some signs that kidney chi is lower. So since kidneys are in the back, a lot of times it will manifest as lower back pain or knees that are weaker, or they tend to be a little more sensitive. And it can also manifest as ear ringing. Night sweats. Could be kidney in deficiency or water accumulation.

  Michelle: Could be kidney yang deficiency. It can also manifest as low libido, fatigue, thin or absent cervical mucus shortened cycles, delayed ovulation, especially if it's short in the follicular phase. That could be a kidney yin deficiency, or if it's short in the luteal phase, it could be a kidney young deficiency.

  Michelle: Some of the emotional aspects of it is since fear is really the emotion of the kidneys, in traditional Chinese medicine, people might have a little bit more anxiety or feel less grounded.

  Michelle: So some of the things that people should consider doing, and this is both for men and for [00:10:00] women, is prioritizing sleep. So seven to nine hours of sleep consistently as much as possible every night. Is really key because in order to really restore that essence, we need to get the rest, because when we're getting into rest, we are able to restore and also our body is able to replenish itself and replenish the fluids and really support cervical mucus and also support sperm production.

  Michelle: And this also supports the body's nervous system and also nervous system regulation. So rest is so key and it is so important and oftentimes is really a luxury. And it shouldn't be a luxury. It actually is a needed thing that all of us need in order to really support our bodies and support anti-aging 'cause ultimately egg quality.

  Michelle: Really depends on anti-aging.

  Michelle: Another thing to keep in mind is teeth. Teeth are actually an extension or expression of kidney Q. Also hair when I was talking about [00:11:00] before. So a lot of shedding can also be something that can also be impacted by kidney chi deficiency. So teeth health is really important as well. And we know that with Western medicine.

  Michelle: They see that there is a correlation now between gum health or dental health and fertility health.

  Michelle: So you also wanna have a well-balanced exercise. Not too much, not too little, so too much can really deplete your kidney chi. And too little is not gonna get the energy moving enough. So it's important to have both because good exercise, a good amount, but also generate more a TP and energy for the body.

  Michelle: So things like meditation will also conserve our energy overall and then. This is really, really important is avoid walking around barefoot on cold tile. So make sure your feet are kept warm. Now, they don't have to be hot, but just make sure to protect the bottom of your feet from getting too [00:12:00] cold. And the reason why is because.

  Michelle: Kidney one, which is the first point on the kidney channel, happens to be at the bottom of your feet. And that point can actually draw the cold into your kidney channels. So you don't want too much cold, and especially for women and also men 'cause they need their young energy as well. But for women that can get drawn into the womb and it's really important to keep the womb warm when it comes to fertility health.

  Michelle: Another thing that's important besides just keeping the feet warm, is also your back. And this is really interesting because I had a friend that was from, I. Russia and her grandmother always told her, keep your kidneys warm. And not to have, not to go outside in the cold weather with her back exposed. But they also say not to do it with your belly exposed either, because that's your womb.

  Michelle: So you wanna make sure that those areas in the body, the lower abdomen and your back are kept warm.

  Michelle: So there are also foods that [00:13:00] you can eat that nourish jing and kidney chi So when it comes to really kidney jing, there are some foods that are considered rich and kidney jing Some of those are seeds, especially black sesame seeds. So if you think about seeds, what are they? They are potential for new life.

  Michelle: They're potential for new growth. So they basically have everything that they need in order to sprout. So they have that potential in there, and then once they're activated, they're able to sprout into a new plant. So ultimately that is what egg cells do, and that is what sperm does.

  Michelle: There're seeds in a human body,

  Michelle: so black sesame seeds in particular are actually really beneficial for kidney chi, but they're also really great for building blood as well. And the same thing goes for bone broth. Bone broth also, because they're coming from bones of animals and you're cooking it for a long time. Those. Stem cells grow in bones, and so ultimately you're getting all the amino acids and the [00:14:00] collagen and lots of really, really healthy nutrients that can support fertility health overall.

  Michelle: And then goji berries, they are super important too, and they can help not only your blood, but they're also really supportive for. Kidney chi and goji berries are actually considered one of the herbs in many of the formulas for Chinese herbs that is used and then also considered black beans, kidney beans, walnuts, seaweed, and dark leafy greens.

  Michelle: And in regards to the nature of the food, it's important to have most of your food cooked. So in Chinese medicine, they really stress the importance of cooking food and making sure that it is not too cold in nature, which is what happens when we have raw food. It's very cold in nature, and that can also impact kidney gene.

  Michelle: So a couple of other things that you can do is. Do some visualizations and visualizations are really [00:15:00] impactful. There's been studies on it, and it shows that your body really does respond. Sometimes people will think about a lemon and they'll salivate even though they don't really have a lemon in their mouth.

  Michelle: Just the thought of it is causing something that's really considered involuntary, which shows that your body is really listening to your thoughts and paying attention to what you're visualizing. So you can visualize warm energy in your womb or warm energy in your kidneys, and a healthy light, and something that supports kind of like a good, healthy life-giving light that supports your ovaries as well.

  Michelle: And overall nervous system support. So this is why sleep is so important and also why meditation is so important. It's important to be able to have a good, calm, nervous system because a calm nervous system does not expend too much energy. It works more efficiently, and this is really key for anti-aging.

  Michelle: It'll also support hormonal balance and get you into a more growth state in your body, which [00:16:00] supports reproductive health.

  Michelle: And then of course, you can always talk to your doctor because I always recommend talking to your doctor before taking any supplements. But look into coq 10, which is really supportive for egg quality and

  Michelle: Omega-3 fatty acids and antioxidants such as acai. These are all really beneficial to support egg and sperm quality.

  Michelle: And lastly, I highly recommend going to an acupuncturist, working through acupuncture and Chinese herbs with a qualified practitioner because it really can benefit your kidney essence so much. I. As a matter of fact, there have been some studies that show that some of the young herbal formulas do increase mitochondrial health.

  Michelle: So that's huge because that's ultimately what you wanna target when it comes to egg and sperm quality. I.

  Michelle: So that concludes today's episode, and you can go into the episode notes and find a link to my ebook, and it is [00:17:00] called Calm With Two Ms. And in that ebook, it is a great resource on how to. Improve your vagal tone and support your nervous system regulation, and that is probably one of the most important and often missed aspects or tools that can support reproductive health.

  Michelle: So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I will see you next time.

Ep 341 The Truth About AMH and FSH: What These Numbers Actually Mean

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m breaking down the truth behind two of the most talked-about fertility hormones: AMH and FSH. Whether you're navigating IVF, trying to conceive naturally, or just beginning to explore your fertility, understanding what these numbers actually mean (and what they don’t) is essential.

In this solo episode, I share what AMH (Anti-Müllerian Hormone) and FSH (Follicle-Stimulating Hormone) reveal about your ovarian reserve, what doctors are looking for, and why these values are only one piece of the fertility puzzle. I also offer insights into how lifestyle, nutrition, and stress management can positively influence your hormonal health and egg quality.

Tune in for a science-meets-soul discussion that will empower you to move forward with more clarity, hope, and confidence on your fertility journey.


Key Takeaways: 

• AMH indicates the estimated quantity of follicles, while FSH reflects how well your ovaries respond to stimulation.

• These values don’t measure egg quality—and they certainly don’t define your fertility potential.

• Numbers like AMH and FSH are just a snapshot in time; they can change with the right support.

• Egg quality can be supported through lifestyle shifts, acupuncture, and antioxidant-rich nutrition.

• Natural conception is possible—even with “low” AMH or “high” FSH.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  FSH and AMH

  [00:00:00] So first I am going to break down what they are. What, what is a MH and what is FSH and why that matters when you're trying to conceive. So a MH stands for anti malian hormone, and this is a hormone that is produced in the granulosa cells of your follicles in your ovaries. So it is one of the things that is measured by reproductive endocrinologists to see how many.

  Eggs you have now, they can't tell you how many, but they can tell that the reserve is high the higher the A MH.

  So generally speaking, many doctors would like to see over one and. And anything under that might be considered more diminishing reserves.[00:01:00]

  Fun fact is that a MH is considered the embryonic police and it prevents males in utero from growing fallopi, from growing fallopian tubes and female reproductive organs.

  Unlike many hormones, a MH does not fluctuate throughout the cycle, so you can actually take the blood work anytime, but most of the time they will take it and measure it at the same time that you're doing FSH, which is usually day three of your cycle. Now, FSH stands for follicular stimulating hormone.[00:02:00]

  And this is a hormone that is released by your pituitary gland, and this hormone stimulates your ovaries to mature follicles.

  So typically speaking, they would like the number to be eight or lower. And the reason why FSH is preferred to be lower is because a higher FSH means that the brain has to produce a higher number in order to. Impact your ovaries in order to help the follicles grow. Now, if the follicles are not responding, or it's taking a little longer, your pituitary gland has to increase the amount of FSH, which means that your body is not as responsive, where your ovaries are not as responsive, and ultimately that is why they want it to be eight or less, because then it [00:03:00] shows that that your body is responding faster and that your ovaries are functioning optimally.

  And in men, FSH plays a key role in sperm production. So in this case, we're talking more about women because we're talking about specifically A MH and FSH and egg reserve.

  So as a recap, a MH will be measuring. The quantity of small follicles. Now, it doesn't give you an exact number, but it gives you an estimated amount based on the number [00:04:00] while FSH is showing the effectiveness of how your ovaries are functioning.

  So the reason this is such a big deal oftentimes, especially if you go to an REI, which is a reproductive endocrinologist, is because they wanna measure the amount of eggs a woman has because when they retrieve and when they give their. Medications, they are going to try to stimulate the egg quantity, so they wanna know that they have a big number to work with and then they give you certain medications and hormones to increase the follicles.

  And typically what happens in a woman's cycle is that the FSH increases, and then there's always that one follicle that will take all of it and it will be kind of the queen bee of the follicles for that month. All the other follicles will not get it, and the one will increase to the point where it matures and [00:05:00]that one follicle every month will be the one to ovulate.

  But when it comes to IVF, they increase the amount of FSH and they will inject you with that. And also work with other hormones so that what it does is it actually creates a situation in the ovaries where you get way more FS, H than you normally would, and then all of the eggs or a lot of the eggs will be able to benefit and grow.

  And this is one of the reasons why, because all of these eggs grow at the same time. It creates almost like a heaviness in the ovaries. And this is one of the reasons why when a woman is going to do a retrieval, they say, don't exercise and don't use the abdomen because they're afraid of something called an ovarian torsion.

  Um, this is a complete side note, but that's one of the reasons is because it creates more eggs and it grows more eggs than normal.[00:06:00]

  So oftentimes when it really is a cycle that can be stimulated, such as when a person goes for egg retrieval, then this is a number that is very important for doctors because they wanna make sure that a woman has enough reserves so that the cycles work properly. However, in a natural cycle, even if a woman has low A MH, and that means that she does not have a huge reserve, it still only takes one egg to fertilize.

  So if a woman has really good quality, even if it's a low number, she could still naturally conceive. This is where it gets really confusing because a lot of times women go to the REI and they get those numbers and it looks like it's a poor score, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she cannot conceive either through [00:07:00] IVF or naturally.

  So here's what a MH and FSH do not tell you. They do not tell you information about the quality of the egg. So. When it comes to equality, actually something that is very hard to measure. The only way you can really kind of see possibly is when a woman goes through IVF and they can see how the eggs grow and how they fertilize.[00:08:00]

  But they also can see how they test genetically. So if there's any issues with the. Genetics and the health of the embryos. That is one of the things that could be because of egg quality, but it can also be because of sperm quality.

  And while a MH and FSH can tell you a lot about what's going on, pregnancy, generally speaking is multifactorial. It really depends on the sperm health. It depends on also the environment and the uterus. There's so many other things that can contribute to issues getting pregnant, that it really doesn't only come down to a MH and FSH.

  As a matter of fact, I've had many patients myself who started out with really, really high FSH and very, very low A MH, and they have gone on to get pregnant [00:09:00] naturally, not just once, but multiple times.

  So just because a woman has low a MH does not mean that she cannot get pregnant. And what it really comes down to at the end of the day is really getting the quality of the eggs as high as possible so that even if it's a low number, they can, they can conceive. And another fun fact, something that I've noticed, and it was more anecdotal in my office, I have seen women with high MH and also there is a correlation to really, really high A MH, and that is something that you can find often with conditions like PCOS.[00:10:00]

  So what I was saying before is that I've had some patients that will go through a retrieval and get about 40 eggs, and then in the end, none of them, I. Up to be viable embryos. And then I've had other patients that have had only two extracted two eggs. And then from those two they fertilized and they ended up being two healthy embryos.

  So you never really know what will happen. And the bottom line is if you really wanna focus on something, my suggestion is focus on egg quality.[00:11:00]

  That being said, I also will say that I have found in my practice that after doing some work and making some changes, lifestyle changes, stress. Lowering stress, really creating an a lot more self-care and acupuncture and sometimes Chinese herbs and sometimes supplements. Depends on the person, 'cause each person is unique.

  After many months I have seen FSH going down and a MH going up. So those numbers, while it seems like a MH should not go up because it's because reserve would usually be going down. I have actually seen that number increase. So also to keep in mind that those numbers are a snapshot in time. So imagine somebody kind of following you [00:12:00] around or a camera following you around and taking snapshots at different times of the day or different times in your life.

  Say one time after you had a really stressful day, and then another time after you just got back from a vacation. How different will you look and how much of a conclusion can somebody come up with by just taking that little quick snapshot of you? And that is typically what the body is like. That is why it's important to do multiple tests and not just one time because you want a baseline, which is really the base that you're starting with.

  And then other times as well, after implementing changes to see if your body's responding.

  So couple of things that you could do. [00:13:00] Really to support yourself is stress reduction. I talk about that a lot because when you come up with tools that manage stress, then you'll be able to manage your sleep. When you manage your sleep, you're able to get into a more restorative state, and that is a state of growth.

  And ultimately, I talk a lot about getting into the parasympathetic nervous system where you're able to feel more calm because when you're in that state, your body is not using up energy. On things that it doesn't really need. Ultimately, it's able to preserve that energy for your reproductive health.

  And when it's able to do that, then you're able to think about growth and you're thinking about egg quality and egg growth, and also energy, because that is actually key. And this is going to dive into the next point that I wanna mention is that. One of the things that is really important for egg quality, and one of the ways that we can look at it is that a TP, [00:14:00] which is the energy unit that is produced by the mitochondria in the cells, ultimately over time, gets lower as we age, and as that.

  Number gets lower, then the quality gets lower. So you want a lot of energy. Think about it. When you don't have a lot of energy, you can't function. So it's really important that the cells have a lot of energy and that the mitochondria is protected. And typically what happens as we get older is oxidation and oxidative stress increases in the body.

  So what do we do to counter that? And that oxidative stress, by the way, is what causes the DNA in mitochondria, which are the powerhouses of your cell. And fun fact, your egg cells have hundreds of thousands of mitochondria, whereas a normal cell is a couple of thousand. So this is just an example of why it is so important for the mitochondria to be healthy.[00:15:00]

  There's a reason why egg cells have so many. Have such a huge number of mitochondria. It's because it's necessary and needs to be there, and this is why a TP is so important because it takes a lot of energy to reproduce and for eggs to fertilize and become a human.

  So the first thing you wanna do is really counter any kind of oxidative stress, and one of the things that you can do is have something called antioxidants, and that is where the name came from. It basically counteracts the effect of oxidative stress, and you will find antioxidants in supplements and in food.

  But you can also find it in the sun. Yes. In the morning when you get sunlight, it actually increases melatonin, but it's not used in the same way as when it [00:16:00] is in your bloodstream at night, or if you're taking it as a supplement to go to sleep. It's actually called cellular melatonin, and it is the melatonin that is in your cells, and you can get that from sunlight also.

  My suggestion is of course, do it in the morning because that is the best time to get the sunlight, and that is also a time where the sun is less dangerous and there's less UV rays.

  Another thing that the sun can give us is vitamin D, and while vitamin D is a hormone, it actually exhibits antioxidant properties.

  And then as far as food and supplements, some of the supplements, and I do wanna mention, do [00:17:00] not take any supplements without talking to your doctor first. But here are a few supplements that you can ask your doctor about and one of them being really, the top one is coq 10 or Ubiquinol. Um, there's Ubiquinone, so it comes in two forms and ubiquinol with an L is the more superior form.

  That is something that a lot of people take when they want to support their egg quality. Another thing that you can consider is resveratrol, and that is another really amazing antioxidant that can also support equality.

  And then you could think about the [00:18:00] very common vitamin C, vitamin E, and those are usually in a good prenatal, but sometimes you might have to supplement a little extra. And glutathione. Um, supporting glutathione is incredibly important. Now, glutathione is a very strong master antioxidant that is produced by the body, and it is actually a very hard thing to take 'cause the body just doesn't just take it, it produces it.

  So N-Acetylcysteine is another supplement that you can take, and it's called NAC. You'll see that typically written down in the bottles. That is the precursor to glutathione, so it helps your body produce glutathione, so that is an amazing, amazing supplement to take as well.

  And then as far as foods go, you want to consider, um, lots of dark leafy greens and also berries. [00:19:00] And that dark color that you'll see in blackberries that is from antioxidants. So it's really important to have lots of those natural occurring antioxidants.

  In foods and fruits because that will support your egg quality.

  And fun fact, dark chocolate when it's not processed and unhealthy is very high in antioxidants as well.

  And matcha green tea is also very high in antioxidants.[00:20:00]

  And lastly, you also would benefit from lowering inflammation, so working on gut health as well, because inflammation can impact the quality of your eggs. One of the things that I say is the most. Simple thing that you can do. And if you can do that every day, it would be amazing is grounding your feet on the earth, having some earth time where your feet are touching the earth.

  And if you can't have that, you can look into buying a grounding mat. And I always say this because this is one of the things that I think about is the only time you don't wanna use a grounding mat is if it's lightning outside. And you also wanna make sure that whatever grounding mat you buy comes with a tester to use on your outlets to make sure that it's safe to use.

  So that concludes today's episode.[00:21:00]

  And really the bottom line is, is that those numbers, while they're important and they give you a lot of information, they are a snapshot in time. They can definitely change and they do not define your fertility journey. As long as you are getting your period and you are ovulating, you always have a chance to conceive.

  And the true factor, really the big thing is you want to get the quality high. And if you think about quality, ultimately it's the eggs. But if you live a quality life, that is, you take care of yourself, you live stress free. You decrease the amount of stress or at least give yourself tools on how to handle stress

  and you eat to nourish your [00:22:00] body and really, really,

  and go to acupuncture. Of course I am biased, then that will help egg quality as well. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I will see you next time. I'll say this for the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

Ep 340 A Functional Approach to PCOS, Autoimmunity, and Hormonal Healing with Hannah Davis

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Hannah Davis (@rooted.with.hannah), a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher who specialises in women’s health, hormones, and autoimmune conditions. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s while navigating early motherhood, Hannah shifted her clinical nutrition practice to focus on uncovering the deeper root causes of symptoms like fatigue, cycle irregularities, and PCOS.

We dive into how nervous system dysregulation often underlies hormonal imbalances and why functional testing, mineral status, and emotional safety are crucial for true healing. From decoding PCOS types to understanding thyroid antibodies and the connection between trauma and calcium retention, Hannah offers a deeply integrative and compassionate lens for supporting women on their fertility and healing journeys.

This conversation is packed with practical tools and fresh insights—don’t miss it!


Key Takeaways: 

• PCOS is not just about ovarian cysts—it's a metabolic and inflammatory condition with many root causes.

• Nervous system regulation is foundational for hormone balance, digestion, and fertility.

• Functional lab testing (like Dutch and HTMA) reveals hidden patterns traditional labs may miss.

• Excess calcium in tissues may indicate trauma or over-supplementation with Vitamin D.

• Diet, stress, sleep, and gut health all influence autoimmune and hormonal symptoms.

Guest Bio:
Hannah Davis, RD (@rooted.with.hannah) is a Registered Dietitian and certified meditation teacher with advanced training in functional nutrition, lab testing, and spiritual psychology. She specialises in supporting women with hormonal imbalances, autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto’s, and chronic fatigue through an integrative approach that blends clinical science with deep nourishment and nervous system healing.

After navigating her own health challenges postpartum, Hannah now helps women reclaim their energy, resilience, and sense of safety through 1:1 coaching and group programs at Pivot Nutrition Coaching. She’s especially passionate about working with mothers, self-healers, and cycle-breakers who are ready to feel like themselves again.

Links and Resources:

• Follow Hannah on Instagram

• Visit the Pivot Nutrition Coaching website

• Book Mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # VIDEO-Hannah-Davis

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Hannah.

  Hannah: thanks for having me.

  Michelle: So I'm very excited to have you on. We're gonna be talking about a lot of really cool topics, but before we get started, I always like to start out with kind of like an origin story and learn how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Hannah: Yeah. I am a registered dietician. I've been mainly practicing medical nutrition therapy for the last 10 years in a more clinical setting. And you know, and then I became a mom. I have two. One's almost eight, you gotta say almost eight. And the other one's, and the other one's nine. So they're really, they're really young and I, you know, working at the hospital part-time and I started noticing.

  Hannah: My own symptoms of, of things that just felt like off. And simultaneously [00:01:00] I was also becoming more interested in learning about more integrative functional nutrition. And so that really led me down. It, it started off as, oh. A way for me to kind of figure out what was going on with me, because of course, like so many of my, the clients I work with now you know, you go to the doctors, you ask for some labs to be done and they just say, oh, you're absolutely fine.

  Hannah: You might just be stressed. You're stressed out, you're a young mom. Of course it's normal to feel exhausted all of the time and stuff like that. So, I just was like really interested in doing more digging and so I, we got some training in advanced lab testing and more like integrative functional nutrition.

  Hannah: And so. From there I was able to figure out what's going on with me, and I, I actually have an autoimmune condition. It's called Hashimotos. And so that really affects, you know, your, your [00:02:00] energy levels, your, your gut health, your immune system obviously is involved. So I, it was so incredibly validating and it really excited me.

  Hannah: I was like, I feel. If I can figure out a way to use advanced lab testing and combine that with my. More of my more clinical, you know, expertise and combine that together to really like, help women feel empowered about how to support their health and, and how they feel and their showing up in their lives every day.

  Hannah: And so it just really, really excited me. So that's kind of what got me started with that. And then I, I pivoted towards, towards that about three years ago started my own virtual practice working more in like the women's health space. So like hormones, gut health, autoimmune conditions.

  Hannah: And then I, as I was doing more of that work, I was like, okay, [00:03:00] there's. I'm seeing a common theme here. These women at their root, cause a lot of the time is nervous system dysregulation. And I got really. Tired of just saying over and over again. You know, you need to manage your stress a little bit better.

  Hannah: I wanted to be able to give them so much more than that. And obviously I knew that from my own journey. I really had to integrate that. And so, but I wanted to like, figure out how to help my, my clients integrate that. So then I became a certified meditation teacher. And spent a year studying spiritual psychology, which is like a blend of Eastern ritual and practices with western psychology.

  Hannah: That, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now I really like to supplement my, programs with giving my clients tools on how to regulate their nervous systems as well. [00:04:00] And so, we'll, you know, you know, it's more of like life coaching almost. And then maybe we'll integrate some, some things like, meditation or breath work together.

  Hannah: It really just depends on what the, how the client wants to be supported. So

  Michelle: Awesome.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: You know it's interesting 'cause I

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: an episode on. Nervous system. Really the vagal tone and

  Hannah: Yes.

  Michelle: there's a link with a weaker vagal tone and things like endometriosis or

  Michelle: PCOS, and I thought that was just fascinating.

  Michelle: So, yeah, I'd love to really kind of dig deep on all of these things. So just for people listening and they're kind of like hearing nervous system for the first time. 'cause well maybe they've listened to my podcast, maybe not when I talked about the nervous system. But what should people, like, explain the nervous system, explain how the nervous system ties into certain [00:05:00] conditions.

  Hannah: I mean, that's a very, like, that's pretty broad because it's like, you know, it really depends on what.

  Michelle: the nervous system like tie into certain conditions?

  Hannah: I don't know what condition it doesn't, honestly. Uh, the more, the more I get like deep in the weeds with this, so, you know, a lot of my clients we, you know, so I am typically working with people with autoimmune conditions and hormone. I balances gut health, that kind of stuff. And I, you know, I would say the nervous system impacts all of those areas because ideally, especially when we're talking about women's health and like hormones, things like that we really just want to create safety in the body, right?

  Hannah: So that we can. Manufacture hormones and ovulate naturally and things like that. So, and then, you know, inflammation's another, another piece of that. It really just, it's a great way to, [00:06:00] like, it just connects to everything right.

  Michelle: Yeah, well the vagus nerve is incredibly important when it comes to gut health. the stronger the vagal tone, the better the vagus nerve, the better. It's able to lower inflammation in the body.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: fascinating and interesting. And so what are some of the things that you do suggest for people. they wanna regulate their nervous system and support that aspect.

  Hannah: So First of all, I think it's important to just figure out what are the systems for that client? What are the systems that are working for them and what's not? And really get really honest about that. And then, you know, it could be something like starting a.

  Hannah: Very doable meditation practice or some breath work like before, before meals, right? Getting into rest and digest me activating that vagus nerve so that we [00:07:00] can digest our food properly. So it really just depends on what is feels a lot most aligned for the client and, and is doable for them. But also I think another big piece of this, which is not really talked about often is eating for blood sugar balance.

  Hannah: Because even like blood sugar swings throughout the day can cause fluctuations in your mood and your anxiety and cravings and all, all of, and even inflammation as well. So

  Michelle: that

  Hannah: like a whole body approach. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: It's such a good point. And I remember like looking into this and researching like just really the gut brain connection and. And it's interesting 'cause you can see it really go both ways. So if you have imbalanced gut microbiome that can ima impact your brain and your mood and your state and your emotions.

  Michelle: And it actually is linked with certain [00:08:00] emotional um, imbalances or like mental disorders. It's really fascinating. And then they found. On the flip side that people who meditated for many years, like Tibetan monks, they had a really vast microbiome that was a lot more enriched and had a lot more diversity.

  Michelle: So it's really fascinating how you really can literally get it at both ends or either end.

  Hannah: yeah. Like I tell my clients all the time, if you're breathing into your shoulders, the majority of the time it's gonna signal, or that's gonna signal to the brain that you're in fight or flight. So it's gonna send all the blood to your extremities. It's not gonna be sending the blood to, you know, your, your GI track and your, you know, your organs there.

  Hannah: And so. it's gonna be a lot harder to digest your foods, whereas if you are really taking these deep breaths into your belly, it's sending all the blood there. And that's, [00:09:00] that's a, and I mean, I often get skipped, you know, people are just like, no, just gimme a, just gimme a meal plan. I wanna feel better.

  Hannah: I wanna lose weight, or I wanna, you know, but it's like, you really gotta think about not just what you're eating, but how you're eating, like what your nervous system state is. You know, when you're, when you're eating food.

  Michelle: That's so true. It's

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: true. And it was funny 'cause I was reading about that and it was one of the things to do is just stand. This is why they say like, don't drive and eat at the same time. Because when you're driving naturally, you're gonna be in a little bit more of a fight or flight or kind of ready for anything and. Also just to kind of throw it out there, it's not bad to be in that state, in that sympathetic state. It's part of life. It's just that sometimes you need that and then sometimes you need the other. But what you're saying is so true, like it's actually like becoming mindful of getting yourself into that state and maybe

  Michelle: doing those exercises to get yourself in more parasympathetic state, which is more of

  Michelle: the rest and digest, so that you're priming your [00:10:00] body when you do eat. To digest better. So I think

  Hannah: Yeah. Of course, and, you know, if you're digesting better, you're absorbing nutrients better, which is gonna impact your energy levels, your mood, your hormones, everything. So yeah, there really, I feel like the more I get into it, the, more I see that there really isn't an aspect of our health, our med, our metabolic health, everything that is not touched by, your nervous system.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's really fascinating. I like, the more I dig into this, the more I'm just like so amazed at how Willy, you know, it's the nervous system is kind of like this wiring of like. Information.

  Michelle: It's almost like information that kind of signals to your body, all kinds of different states, but especially that safety.

  Michelle: I agree with you. You know, when you, when you feel safe, you can be more creative. And what does that mean really in the body fertility and it also regeneration growth.

  Michelle: So yeah, it's pretty cool,

  Hannah: [00:11:00] Yeah. And I mean, hormones, that's how hormones work too. They're just chemical messengers in your body.

  Michelle: right? and so talk about PCOS, 'cause I know that you work with P-C-O-S-A lot just to cover. 'cause I think of people don't really understand it fully because it is you know, there's so many different types of PCOS and people get confused and sometimes people show PCOS symptoms, but then some doctors, and we don't know if they're just not like looking. Thoroughly into it. Dismiss it. Oh, that's not PCOS. So

  Hannah: Right.

  Michelle: that and just kind of,

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: it is,

  Hannah: Okay, well, we'll just start what, like, so what is PCOS? So PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome. So a lot of people get confused by that right off the bat. They think, oh, so that mean I have cysts on my ovaries. Does that mean that I have it? So it's actually not a physical ovarian condition, [00:12:00] like of the presence of cyst, but it's rather a hormonal condition and it's a, what I like to call a spectrum condition.

  Hannah: You know, 'cause there's different varieties and there's different root causes. It's important to understand, first of all what kind of PCOS you have and what the root causes are which is why we, we use functional lab testing in practice. But but yeah, I think a lot of women often it's like a long confusing road full of mixed messages of like just lose weight advice,

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Hannah: you know.

  Michelle: really thin. PCOS patients, so that's where it can get so confusing for

  Hannah: Right, right, right. And so, A-P-C-O-S isn't in an ovarian condition, you know, what exactly is going on? I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically, blood sugar issues plus inflammation, plus genetic susceptibility, which is going to lead [00:13:00] to the ovaries to begin to produce large amounts of androgens.

  Hannah: So, you know, and I say genetic susceptibility because, you know, just because you have like insulin sensi or insulin resistance or diabetes, that doesn't mean you automatically are gonna get PCOS. Some people just have really sensitive ovaries right. And so they're, they're going to develop the, the condition, so I like to talk to my clients about well first of all, we start by running some tests to find out, you know, what what their root causes are. And then we're gonna really go deep with, you know, working on the blood sugar issues with the inflammation, real food strategies lifestyle interventions, things like that.

  Michelle: One of the things that I find is pretty common just in my own practice, is that.

  Michelle: there's a huge link of gut [00:14:00] imbalance

  Michelle: or, you know, gut microbiome

  Michelle: imbalance and inflammation, you know, that is part of the contributor to the inflammation and can really impact PCOS conditions.

  Hannah: Yeah. Because you know, if we, if that inflammation in the gut is going unchecked you know, that's also gonna drive that insulin resistance even more.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Michelle: what are some of the tests that you do for PCOS? Functional

  Hannah: Well, yeah. Well, first of all, I, I like to start with a Dutch test. It's a, have you heard of Dutch? The Uhhuh? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. So I would run a Dutch you know, so that we,

  Michelle: out just for people

  Hannah: yeah. Yes,

  Michelle: I've never heard of it before. So it's dried urine testing for comprehensive, or I forget

  Hannah: it's a Dr. It's a. Yeah, yeah. Dried urine test for comprehensive hormones. I know I used to think, oh, it's [00:15:00] of Dutch, like it's from the Dutch, like, you know, but it's just an abbreviation.

  Michelle: right, right.

  Hannah: But yes, it's a very unique way to look at hormones. 'cause traditionally before this test was available, you would have to rely on blood work for hormones.

  Hannah: And, you know, saliva for cortisol, which is okay, but it's just not great. So this test really helps us get a lot more specific, a lot more personalized, and helps us get some answers that would probably. Be left unanswered if we were just, you know, looking at, at blood work alone. So, you know, it's gonna tell us, you know, give us a snapshot of all three sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone.

  Hannah: It's gonna show us how they're being metabolized in the liver. And then what I really like is it looks at your cortisol awakening response. So someone is struggling with sleep, mood, energy levels. Things like that that could also be driving your symptoms and, and your inflammation as well. So I, mm-hmm.

  Michelle: cortisol is your friend in the morning. [00:16:00]

  Hannah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I like that it also has that organic acid test at the end there, which some of those other markers are gonna be important for looking at, for hormone production. So it's nice if they include that. So I, I like to do a Dutch, I also like to do HTMA testing, which stands for hair tissue mineral analysis.

  Hannah: Because, you know, you know, when we're looking at hormones it's, you know, we, we also wanna be, look thinking about minerals too because and not just like, our minerals through blood work, but more on a cellular level. Like what is the body doing with those minerals? And how is your body utilizing them?

  Hannah: Are they even getting up into the cell? So, and we can, you know, you know, minerals, they impact hormones, which means they're gonna impact PCOS. So I like that one too. And it's like a little, it's a, it's a nice way to, I like it 'cause it's, it shows your body's like, it's like a blueprint. It [00:17:00] shows you your stress pattern.

  Hannah: know how your body is using minerals after you've maybe gone through a season of. Really high stress and you know, the fertility journey too is so stressful on its own that I'm like, yeah, let's look at what your body does with all this stress and how we can really like, you know, deeply nourish your body and, you know, make it feel safe for ovulation.

  Michelle: Yeah, I know that there's a lot of minerals that you can't really test in blood and for example, magnesium. That's a

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: one to test for. So does this test for magnesium as well, like all minerals or,

  Hannah: yeah, yeah. It looks at all of the minerals. Specifically the ones that I'm gonna be focusing on. The minerals that impact PCS would be magnesium, zinc, calcium, iron selenium iodine. So, you know, and in a nutshell, you know, these, these minerals. they can exacerbate insulin resistance, hormonal imbalances, oxidative stress, which is [00:18:00] important for like egg quality, sperm quality, things like that.

  Hannah: So women, get your men to your partner.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Michelle: So, so this is a hair test.

  Hannah: yeah, it's a hair. They're using just like a teaspoon amount of your hair to analyze the mineral content in your tissues.

  Michelle: Fascinating. I know they've done those for like heavy metals and, and just testing the

  Hannah: Yeah, yeah,

  Michelle: I haven't heard of the mineral testing yet.

  Hannah: yeah. And this, yeah. And this test does include heavy metals and we look at, mm-hmm.

  Michelle: heavy metals. Oh, okay.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: it's really high. Just like for people that don't have symptoms sometimes I almost feel like it's like high for everybody.

  Hannah: The heavy metals. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and

  Michelle: somebody who's not, who doesn't have like,

  Hannah: yeah, and I mean, we we're exposed to heavy metals all of the time. It's, you know, it's, there's, it's kind of impossible [00:19:00] to get around it, you know? It's in our food, our water, the soil, you know. And so my approach is, you know, we might see like an acute.

  Hannah: Exposure to the heavy metals. But what we wanna see is that you, you're able to detox and excrete those heavy metals safely. You know, that's why, you know, we have our detox organs, our liver, right? And so if I ever see those metals like pushing into the tissues, it's just a really good indication that, hey, your liver needs some.

  Hannah: Some attention, like we need to work on supporting that. And also working on not just our detoxification organs, but our drainage pathways. So like our lymphatic system you know, making sure we're having daily bowel movements that we're sweating all of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Michelle: for sure. I think that that's key is really detoxifying, and I think that it, you had a good point. You mentioned the word safely because

  Michelle: that can be an issue, like if you detoxify too [00:20:00] harshly. I'm really big on that, especially when you're trying to conceive and you're actively trying, you definitely don't wanna do something that's so strong that it actually circulates more toxins in your bloodstream.

  Hannah: That's right. Yeah.

  Michelle: So they have like binders, right? Or things

  Hannah: Yeah, That is one approach for me. I rarely will do like a heavy metal detox with somebody. I will just wanna work with them on, you know, first the foundational things of, are we optimizing the gut health, the, you know, the liver function are we getting those drainage pathways open?

  Hannah: Because your body should be able to do all that on its own if it's, you know, optimal. but I mean, if someone's already doing like a gut protocol or something with me, then yeah, they, they'll be taking like those types of supplements and then it'll, it'll still act on the heavy metals and things like that, as.

  Michelle: Interesting. So, what are some of the nutrient and lifestyle interventions specifically that you would do for PCOS? Or have you seen, because I, [00:21:00] I do know that

  Hannah: yeah.

  Michelle: different types, so that could

  Hannah: Yes.

  Michelle: the type,

  Hannah: Yes. Yeah.

  Michelle: the things that people should kind of like look out for, think about?

  Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is, is gonna be improving the quality of your food choices. So, you know, removing inflammatory oils, added sugars a lot of like processed, like ultra processed carbohydrates and, you know, with chemical and artificial additives. Things like that, you wanna replace them with whole real foods.

  Hannah: It's really that simple.

  Michelle: Yeah. I know,

  Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And then also, you know, the goal is to eat a sufficient amount of carbohydrates to promote ovulation, but while still focusing on those whole real. Food sources, like starchy veggies fruits and then unprocessed whole grains and legumes.

  Michelle: So really from natural sources, [00:22:00]

  Michelle: complex car carbs. So it's not like simple carbs, not white, you know, avoid those like.

  Hannah: Yeah. Right. So you, and you would want to make sure you're getting adequate amount of carbohydrates, but you know, if we're also dealing with insulin resistance, then we also need to be talking about you know, maintaining adequate calorie intake and just aiming for. Balance across all the macronutrients.

  Hannah: So, you know, we're pairing those carbohydrates with good quality sources of protein and healthy fats. And, if you're eating a more whole food carbs diet like. Your carbs are coming from fruits like, and like root vegetables and things like that, then those foods are naturally gonna have more fiber in them, which is also gonna help with things like insulin resistance.

  Hannah: And then I would also be focusing on gut nourishing foods, like, bone broth probiotics from fermented foods, cultured. Products. And then lots of prebiotic fibers. So it also just making sure you're eating a [00:23:00] wide range of, plant fibers. Like we're not just eating the same, spinach every day.

  Hannah: You know, let's really mix that up. Maybe like arugula, kale, you know. So that would be the where, where I would start with foods strategies. And then for lifestyle I would be really focusing on exercise. This is a really crucial tool in repairing insulin sensitivity and managing blood sugar levels.

  Hannah: So first I would just focus on increasing your daily movement. So, you know, maybe try tracking your steps. And then maybe you would wanna consider adding in some resistance training and some short hit style workouts. Since those really show the most metabolic improvements. In general I would avoid, I would avoid like, really long duration cardio on a regular baseball basis, since that's like very stressful on the body.

  Hannah: So exercise is number one. Stress management is key. I know we've already kind of touched on that a little bit. [00:24:00] You know, that's a big piece of hormonal. Balance balance since the, your adrenal health, you know, has the ability to impact the function of your sex hormones. I would just evaluate the sources of your stress.

  Hannah: You know, I like to think of it like a bucket, like a stress bucket, and we have all these different inputs pouring in. Some of those things we can't really remove, but some things we can, you can control your nutrition and your sleep quality. You know, you can maybe work on energetic boundaries, right?

  Hannah: Maybe you wanna include things like meditation or journaling, acupuncture, right? Those are all really nice ways to support yourself. And then sleep. Sleep is also like so major. That's when you know when you're, you can get good quality sleep at night. That's when your, your body's repairing tissue.

  Hannah: And it, it has a lot to do with your hormones, like in like your like your hunger hormones, those ones and then also like [00:25:00] cortisol, melatonin, things like that. Everything that just keeps all of the systems working together smoothly. So, yep. Do you.

  Michelle: of sleep. There's a, there like a lot of times we'll increase sugar cravings 'cause you want that quick energy. So

  Hannah: Yes,

  Michelle: that's one example of how that can impact

  Hannah: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If you have like one poor night of sleep, it increases your hunger hormone levels pretty significantly. So we'll see that that issue popping up time and time again. Yeah, so.

  Michelle: yeah. And I also have heard, in some

  Michelle: of like go, literally pivot into autoimmune and how [00:26:00] you can address that in the case of Hashimoto's?

  Michelle: 'cause it is so prevalent and a lot of people have it. The first thing that I say is, cut out gluten, corn, and dairy and soy if you can. Now, I always say if you can't do all of them, at least cut out the gluten entirely and talk to us about like what you've done and what you've found to be helpful.

  Michelle: 'cause it is something that if you catch early, you really can sh shift a lot just from diet alone.

  Hannah: Oh, yes. Yeah, and I've helped. Hundreds of women with that. Exactly. Just you know, we see, I've seen different stages of, Hashimoto's. You know, so if it's like, you know, stage one where we're seeing the presence of antibodies and maybe they have symptoms, maybe they don't. A lot of those women typically will present with like subclinical hypothyroidism.

  Hannah: So like their thyroid labs look fine. But they're like, I, feel tired all the time. I'm constipated. [00:27:00] I can't lose weight, you know? So the first thing I would start with is kinda getting ahead of things with, 'cause the majority of your immune system is in your gut. So I would be doing a GI would run a stool sample, a GI map and see what's going on there.

  Hannah: Because there's different things that could be driving. That immune response. Yeah. It could be coming from things in the diet like gluten. And that test certainly will show us if you're having an immune response to gluten. So in those cases, I would have those clients cut, cut that out. And some people they, they don't, they don't run the test and they cut out gluten, but they just feel better without it.

  Michelle: See that a lot.

  Hannah: mm-hmm. I do too. Just kind of anecdotally. I was just gonna say that I think it is because of like, what, what they're spraying on our crops.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Hannah: Yep. know that it can impact hormones like big time, that's

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: one for sure.

  Hannah: Yeah. So, and then, you know, obviously if there's [00:28:00] a inflammation or like leaky gut.

  Hannah: You know, we're gonna wanna address that anyway because that could be driving that immune response and making your symptoms worse, making the antibodies levels worse, right? So I really wanna just get ahead of it with the gut number one.

  Hannah: And then I like to do mineral testing as well, since so many minerals, not only impact PCOS, but they impact your thyroid.

  Michelle: That's a huge

  Hannah: Yes, selenium. This is a common thing that I see. I'll see really high amounts of calcium in the tissues. And that's gonna block your thyroid hormone from getting up into the cell.

  Hannah: So like maybe their thyroid panel looks great, but that, or they're already taking a thyroid medication, but they're, they feel like it's not doing anything for them. I'm like, look, you have a lot of calcium in your tissues. And so like, that's your thyroid hormone's not even getting up into the cell. So of course you wouldn't feel an impact [00:29:00] there.

  Hannah: And that also is.

  Michelle: actually? What causes that? Calcification?

  Hannah: So, I typically see that from over supplementing with vitamin D. So, that will pull the calcium out of the bone and teeth. And put it into the tissues. Yeah. A lot of people get put on vitamin D by their doctor, like maybe they had low levels at one point, and then their doctor never talked to them about weaning off of the vitamin D.

  Hannah: They just kept taking it.

  Michelle: too high. Yeah.

  Hannah: Yeah. Or they'll start them off like a really high dose, like I've seen like 50,000 units of, of vitamin. Yeah. And they, and they just keep taking it like, then they're never told like, Hey, you're actually supposed to tapered off of that after a couple months. I've also seen an influx of people on vitamin D, zinc you know, ever since the pandemic.

  Hannah: So they just kept taking it and they don't know how that's impacted their. Mine. So, so yeah, that's one culprit. I, I'll see. The other thing that I notice, and this [00:30:00] is pretty prevalent in the autoimmune community is, and I don't think it's talked about a lot, is significant trauma and certain types of trauma.

  Hannah: It, it's like we call when we see this pattern on an htm. It, we call it a calcium shell where the calcium and the magnesium levels are really high in the tissues. And then we are like really depleted in things like potassium and sodium and other secondary minerals. And it's kind of like the body's way of shielding itself from feeling big, like feeling really big emotions.

  Hannah: So like a lot of these clients, I, I'll talk to them about this and they have such a flat effect, like with the then we start moving the calcium out of the tissues and then they become, they're, it's like they really need more emotional support throughout that process. It's very interesting. [00:31:00] I'm about to actually do an HTMA on myself.

  Hannah: It's been a couple of years, but I've just gone, I'm grieving my mom right now and I, yeah, and it's just been a really rough couple of months. I've just been just going through the motions and kind of in that, like taking care of her, taking care of my girls. Like just everything that we've gone through leading up to this point.

  Hannah: And I'm like, I am so curious to know what's going on with my minerals right now. I would not be surprised if I was having calcium going into my tissues. 'cause I believe that's what was my pattern last time I ran the test a few years ago. So.

  Michelle: Oh, that's interesting.

  Hannah: It's like, yeah, this is my, my unique pattern, you know, so I see that a lot with Hashimoto's and yeah, and, and it's interesting because that pattern, like the high calcium in the tissues and the low potassium, that's really really common with like thyroid stuff in general because, you know, first of all, that [00:32:00] calcium's blocking the thyroid.

  Hannah: Hormone from getting up into the cell. It's also gonna be blocking insulin signaling. So there is gonna be a lot of blood sugar swings, and that's gonna be driving the inflammation, making that worse. And then the low potassium, well, you know, potassium is needed for thyroid function as well. So, I see that pattern a lot with that population and it's so fascinating.

  Hannah: And I would just say like, I wouldn't say it's like. It's more like anecdotal, right? Like and you probably see that too in your practice. Yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle: For different things, not this specifically, but Yeah.

  Michelle: I mean, you see a lot of that and that's, that matters just because studies are very expensive to have and you can't

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: rely just on studies. You have to really rely on data in general, like your own experience

  Hannah: Oh, absolutely.

  Michelle: there's so much information that you can get just from that. And then, couple of things. One of the things is, I know that Zyme has been shown to really [00:33:00] help, it's an enzyme, it's a pro oleic enzymes that break apart, like fibrous tissue. So I'm curious to

  Hannah: Oh

  Michelle: if it would help with excess calcium or, you know, deposits because it, it works to break down

  Hannah: yeah,

  Michelle: really needed in the body.

  Hannah: yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle: up.

  Hannah: Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah, because when we see, usually the calcium in the tissues is also associated with things like restless leg syndrome, kidney stones, gallstones, all that stuff, you know, because it's just calcification of the tissues. Right. What I do is I'll get, if that person is, has actually been on vitamin D what I'll do is I'll say, okay, let's just pause on the vitamin D and then I'll get them on, a form of vitamin K two that will target that calcium in the tissues and, and bring it, redirect it back to the bones. So we'll do that for several months. And if that person's still concerned about their, their vitamin D [00:34:00] levels and say, let's just get that checked, you know, and depending on where you're at with that, you, you either, you know, probably need supplementation time from time to time, or maybe just during the winter, right?

  Hannah: But it's not a long term. You know, supplement for you because of this pattern, this pattern that you typically have.

  Michelle: Another thing that I was gonna mention is, we were talking about like, antibodies.

  Michelle: I remember, One of my patients mentioning she had like a, 'cause I was talking to an REI and I was gonna have him, I had him on the podcast and so she had some questions and she had a very low amount of antibodies that are considered normal. And he said no, because the presence of any antibody, and that's what's crazy to me.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: normal in labs

  Hannah: Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. The reference ranges for conventional labs or like in more like conventional healthcare settings. They're not, they're designed to show like if you [00:35:00] have a chronic disease or not. Not necessarily if you're optimal. Right. Like thriving, you know?

  Michelle: have any, even if it's like minute, it means that there's an autoimmune, like

  Hannah: Right. And.

  Michelle: your thyroid.

  Hannah: Yeah, and I mean, my first thought is like, and just because I've worked in that arena for so long, is I think it's just because they need to have a diagnose, a diagnosis for a chronic disease, number one, so that they can build insurance and blah, blah, blah.

  Michelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  Hannah: So they typically can't treat you. They can't, they technically can't treat you.

  Hannah: Like they don't really run on a, it's more of like a sick care model. It's not really, they can't really treat you for like prevention. Right. That's not like that that's not how insurance companies work. So, I think that that's, that's my theory on that. But, you know, but to, to answer your question, yes, I, I see, low levels that aren't considered Hashimoto's,

  Michelle: Right?

  Hannah: but I [00:36:00] would label that early stages or stage one, and I would say, let's work, let's, let's order GI Map.

  Hannah: Let's look at what your minerals are doing like that impact your thyroid. Let's just, just start helping you feel better right away so that we can go into remission. I would much rather my client like, just go ahead and work on those things instead of waiting until it's like, you know, now we're seeing tissue damage, you know, and there's a lot of practices.

  Hannah: I don't,

  Michelle: it if it's early enough, like, but if it's

  Hannah: yeah.

  Michelle: really like far gone,

  Hannah: Yeah. It can, and I don't know if you've run across this a lot in your practice or with your clients, but I've been told a lot of times that they weren't even able to request or see a specialist or an endocrinologist, I guess, until they were able to see tissue damage. And it's like, wouldn't you wanna just prevent the tissue damage?

  Michelle: crazy to me. Yeah.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I'm, you know, I just like to get on it like right away, [00:37:00] even if it's like, you know, your antibodies are like five, you know?

  Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really low, but still,

  Hannah: Yeah. Really low. Yeah. It's worth working on. Yeah.

  Michelle: I had actually just recently, I had a case where her TSH was like five and she's young, she's in her twenties. And I'm

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: not normal.

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: just a little abnormal.

  Michelle: But that's not a little abnormal for try somebody trying to conceive.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: and under. So if you

  Hannah: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: the thing. If you go to a general doctor or even an ob, they are a little more general in women's health.

  Hannah: Yeah.

  Michelle: they're not going to look at it the same way as an REI is gonna look at it, which is a reproductive endocrinologist and they're gonna

  Hannah: Right.

  Michelle: it a completely different perspective.

  Michelle: Yeah, so it's, so those things I think a lot of people just don't realize and they're going in and they get the wrong information or they don't get like the full information and many years go by and it's kind of like, you know, that's why it's so important to really get ahead of it.[00:38:00]

  Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're, you're worthy of feeling better, you know, if, does it have to be something that's chronic or.

  Michelle: Right.

  Hannah: Like full on disease state before just feeling better.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So for people who, you know, are curious and wanna learn more about what you do,

  Michelle: um, what are some of the things that you offer online? Where can people find you? I.

  Hannah: So for people who are wanting to work one-on-one with me or maybe just start off with a consultation or some have some labs done you can find me at through Pivot Nutrition Coaching. So the website is pivot nutrition coaching com. And then if, for my social media, I'm on Instagram with Hannah.

  Michelle: Awesome. I'll have all the notes anyway. If anybody like is curious or wants to know exactly [00:39:00] how it's written out or find the link, you can find those on the episode notes. So Hannah, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a great conversation. I love really digging deep on just what goes on with these conditions that so many people hear about that are trying to conceive, but they don't really understand it.

  Michelle: And I think. There's so much power and knowledge and understanding and kind of like going beneath the surface. So I think this is one of the things that I like to do on the show is really to educate people on like really what's going on. So you've really shared some great, valuable information, so thank you so much, Hannah.

  Hannah: Thank you so much for having me and I, I think that this is such an important, important conversation to have and a valuable platform, so it's really an honor to be here. And hope we can chat again soon.

  Michelle: Thank you.

  [00:40:00]

Ep 339 Breathing to Conceive? It Sounds Crazy… Until You Try It

On today’s solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into the ancient practice of Pranayama, also known as yogic breathwork, and its profound impact on fertility. Breathwork may sound simple, or even unrelated to fertility, but the connection between your breath, nervous system, and reproductive health is incredibly powerful.

In this episode, I explain how specific breathing techniques can shift your body from a state of stress into one of rest and regeneration, promoting hormone balance, improved digestion, and pelvic blood flow all critical components of a healthy fertility journey. You’ll learn practical ways to integrate ancient breathing practices like Nadi Shodhana (alternate nostril breathing), Kapalabhati (breath of fire), Bhastrika (bellows breath), Bhramari (humming bee breath), and Ujjayi breathing into your daily routine.

If you’re feeling overwhelmed, stuck, or simply curious about new tools to support your body naturally, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways: 

• Breathwork regulates the nervous system, supporting hormonal balance and reproductive function.

• Ancient yogic practices like Pranayama offer free, accessible tools for stress reduction and enhanced vitality.

• Techniques like alternate nostril breathing and humming bee breath can be easily integrated into your daily life.

• Breath can help release emotional tension and stimulate vagal tone, a key player in fertility health.

• Conscious breathing increases oxygenation, supports digestion, and boosts clarity.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 339 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a deeply healing and powerful practice that has stood the test of time. It's called Pranayama or yogic Breath Work. You might be surprised to hear just how much breath work could influence your mind and your nervous system, and then in turn influence your reproductive health.

  Michelle: 'cause we know that the nervous system plays such an important role on reproductive health. So if you wanna find out more about powerful breathing exercises that you can do so easily and they're free, that can influence your nervous system and how you feel. Overall, this episode is for you.

  Michelle: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a [00:01:00] fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: So, so today I'm going to cover a very interesting topic, which is Pranayama. so this is an ancient Indian or yogi or yo guine practice that has been done for thousands of years.

  Michelle: Pranayama or yogic breath work

  Michelle: is extremely powerful And can really impact the mind and the nervous system. So if you wanna find out more on how to hack your nervous system, and if you've watched some of my earlier videos, I talk a lot about how your nervous system really can influence your fertility health because it gets you into a more rest and digest state.

  Michelle: And it can also influence your inflammation and your digestion and even create more balance in your hormones. So if you are trying to conceive and you wanna [00:02:00] find out how you can really hack your body and mind through pranayama this amazing ancient tradition, this amazing ancient practice, then stay tuned.

  Michelle: So you might be asking yourself, what exactly is pranayama?

  Michelle: So in Sanskrit prana means life force vitality. So it's very similar to what chi in Chinese medicine means, and it's the life force vitality that goes through our body. a yma means control or expansion.

  Michelle: So Pranayama in essence, is the art of controlling your breath to influence the life force vitality in your body.

  Michelle: So it's not just about breathing more deeply though. That's part of it.

  Michelle: It is about becoming aware of how your breathing can influence your hormone balance and your nervous system,

  Michelle: as well as reducing stress. And these are all really important and impactful things when you're trying to conceive.

  Michelle: So, although this [00:03:00] is coming from ancient India, this is something that can control all bodies and all different cultures. and it's one of the many gifts that we get from the ancient Vedas, Which is really linked to Ayurveda and yoga. The yogic tradition is the aspect of the physical, and it's more of the physical therapy aspect of it, but this is all part of really the science of life and how they're perceiving that you're able to, and how they're giving you tools to really access this amazing, intelligent life force that resides in your body.

  Michelle: So just to kind of give you a little bit of an overview. So Prana is very similar to Q, which is Life Force Vitality, and this is basically the life force that we have that is intelligent and that keeps our body warm and that keeps our body functioning. So this is something that really is intelligent because that aspect of our bodies is [00:04:00] what tells ourselves what to do, and it also helps the self-healing mechanism of the body.

  Michelle: And when we're in fight or flight, and I always come back to the nervous system than our body is more worried about survival. And regeneration is not as much of a priority because survival is more important. But what happens when we're in survival is that everything moves towards that survival, and it's not worried about digestion.

  Michelle: It's not worried about inflammation. All the things that are running in the background. And it can also impact your sleep because when you're trying to survive, you can't rest, you can't sleep, you can't afford to, you wanna survive, you wanna be alive. So that's ultimately how the nervous system operates.

  Michelle: But when we're getting that free flow of energy and that we're able to really be enriched with the QI and the life force of Prana, and we're able to get also in a more rest and digest mode, things will flow more easily and they're not gonna be as constricted as it does, as things [00:05:00] do happen with stress.

  Michelle: And ultimately as an acupuncturist, one of the biggest things that I do is I work a lot on pelvic energy flow and blood flow. So when there's more flow in your body, there's more blood flow, there's less constriction. And as we know, many times when people have high blood pressure, you know, your blood vessels are actually.

  Michelle: Muscle and those muscles tighten and it causes more constriction and more pressure. And we know that stress can even impact blood pressure. So that tightening is what happens when we're stressed, and ultimately that tightening is going to block. Impact, as I mentioned with the liberty, which is really its role, is to get that energy to flow.

  Michelle: So one of the ways that we can hack really our minds and our bodies is through pranayama. And today I'm gonna talk about a couple of different. Techniques of breathing that you can do that will [00:06:00] immediately have an impact on how you feel and how the energy and the prana in your body is able to flow, which ultimately will be beneficial not just for your body and your reproduction, but also your mind.

  Michelle: And I'm sure you know that if you are on the fertility journey, it can be very stressful. And when you're stressed, there's been studies that show that when you're stressed, you can't really make a clear minded decision. And as we know, when you're on the fertility journey, you need that decision making aspect of your mind because you are going through a lot of different choices and options that are being thrown at you.

  Michelle: So the first breath that I am going to be sharing with you is called Nadi Shaana, and that is alternate nostril breath. I like to call it the yin and yang pranayama, although that's not really the name, because it balances the yin and the yang in our brain. So both hemispheres of the brain start to function and come [00:07:00] together.

  Michelle: And this is one of the most immediate calming exercises that you can do. And what it does is it basically you alternate sides and you will block one nostril and breathe in, and you can breathe into like the count of four or the count of eight, whatever feels right. But if you slow it also, you'll start to feel a little more peace so you can actually breathe into the count of eight.

  Michelle: Then close both nostrils. So breathe in one nostril, close the right, and breathe in from the left. Breathe in to eight, and then hold both nostrils closed to the count of eight, and then exhale from the right to the count of eight. And then breathe back in from the same one, the right to the count of eight, close both nostrils, and then breathe out from the left and then breathe back in for the count of eight out, eight in hold it.[00:08:00] 

  Michelle: So basically just remember one specific count and you're gonna keep doing that and then alternate your nose. Now you're gonna notice that one nostril is going to be a little more clear than the other. And that is actually very normal. Our bodies tend to go more yin and yang throughout the day, so one side will feel one way and the other side will not feel that same way, and you'll find that that will alternate throughout the day.

  Michelle: And that's kind of an interesting thing, but our bodies do alternate and we're constantly getting to this place of homeostasis so that our body can find balance. But through that, we do have those two sides, those dualities, which is why doing something like this can be so powerful.

  Michelle: So by balancing, because our nose is directly opened, you know, the olfactory nerve, which is also the sense is directly linked or connected to the brain. So by alternating those two sides, of [00:09:00] breathing, you are creating that balance from the left and right hemispheres of the brain, and that also can create more clear thinking if you are feeling anxious and it's hard for you to really make a decision.

  Michelle: This is a great exercise to do, and what this also does is activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the more rest and digest nervous system. So if you're feeling extra stressed and you wanna slow down your mind, this is amazing. It also improves oxygenation and it also creates more mindfulness.

  Michelle: 'cause as you're doing it, you're being very conscious of how you're breathing and how you're feeling because it is a practice that you have to pay attention while you're doing it.

  Michelle: So you could do this in the beginning of your day and then you can do this at the end of the day. And it could be literally two minutes, two minutes in the morning and two minutes at night. And I think that it is really nice to actually do it in the beginning and end of the day. 'cause you're literally doing it at yin and yang times of your 24 hour cycle.

  Michelle: So it can help you when you [00:10:00] first start to wake up, and then you can help you end the day really nicely and support your nervous system as you go to sleep. So another one that is one of my favorites is called Kati, and that is skull shining breath. Or you may have heard this, called breath of fire. And so ultimately what it is, is working through your diaphragm and after you do it for a while, you literally feel like you are breathing fire.

  Michelle: 'cause you can feel a lot of fire in your diaphragm area. So the area that I'm talking about is really the soft area of your belly that's right underneath your ribs. So you start to feel this, it's kind of like right above, it's between the bottom of your ribs and your belly button, right in that solar plexus in that area.

  Michelle: So you can put your hands there Before I actually go into the description of how to do it, I wanna talk about what it does. Breath of fire is incredible for [00:11:00] digestion and it is one of the more stimulating breaths, and I remember one of my teachers mentioning That there was like a saying that as many breaths as you breathe, that we only have a certain amount of breaths for our life.

  Michelle: And that is why it's important to breathe slow. And the slower we breathe, the longer we can live. And I asked about this one because it's actually a very rapid type of breath, and they said, well, it's considered one breath because it's, you're not fully exhaling.

  Michelle: You're kind of like pumping throughout the whole time that you're doing it. So it's actually considered one breath. It's not considered, many different breaths.

  Michelle: so another thing, the reason why it's called Breath of Fire is because in Ayurvedic medicine, a lot of times they refer to something called Agni, which is our digestif fire. And that justifier, I guess you can say correlates to really our ability to break down foods And really the acid that we have in our stomach that can cook the [00:12:00] food and ultimately the breath of fire. And Agni is very, very important. And sometimes people will have diminished Agni from drinking too much cold or not really eating correctly. And so we don't want that. We wanna actually kindle that fire because when you kindle that fire, it will protect your body, increase your immune system, and also break down foods so that the rest of the digestive system, is able to really assimilate the nutrition from the food.

  Michelle: Another thing that it can do is clear, stagnant energy. And then when stagnant energy gets cleared, then you're getting more flow in the body and Prana is able to really move. So. This is one of the most powerful breaths to really get things moving. And the only thing that I would say with this, and really everything that I'm saying is not medical advice.

  Michelle: And I would also say be cautious. If you are about to do a retrieval, I would not do this breath because they are afraid [00:13:00] of ovarian torsion and this is something that you don't wanna mess with. So, and it is a very powerful and moving type of breath.

  Michelle: But I'd like to compare it to when the Native Americans used fire for brushes, you know, for, to get rid of like old weeds before they created new or planted new seeds. And this is one of those things, you're getting things outta the way, you're burning out the stagnation with this breath in order to get more flow and more new energy coming into the body.

  Michelle: so here's how you do it. So in between the bottom of your ribs and your belly button, so put your hand there and you could put both hands, one on top of the other. And what you do is you forcefully exhale, and you will find that when you do that, you're naturally going to bounce back almost like a rubber band where it just inhales.

  Michelle: By nature. And then you don't worry about the inhale 'cause it's gonna happen automatically and you just keep exhaling and you just [00:14:00] pump with the exhale. So you go and you'll feel that bounce when you have your hand there. And over time you'll find that it can get longer and longer as you practice.

  Michelle: In the beginning, you might get tired sooner and sometimes you might even find that it makes you cough. It is so purifying, it will actually make you cough up old mucus in your lungs. So it is pretty wild how it works.

  Michelle: So the next type of breath is called baa, and that is also called the bellows breath. And this is a little bit more active and I'll describe it so that you understand how to do it.

  Michelle: But first let me explain what it does.

  Michelle: So Bas Rica, very similar to the breath of fire, is also a breath that is very active and it can stoke the internal fire in our bodies.

  Michelle: It also involves very, forceful inhales and exhales. But in this case, you're gonna be [00:15:00] using the arms.

  Michelle: It is considered to activate the Kundalini energy in the body. This is the energy that runs up and down our spine and feeds really all of our organs and body

  Michelle: and supports our body's energetic flow. and it also is considered to have a balancing effect on the doshas. If you've watched my Ayurvedic video, I talk about the different doshas, which are really elements in your body, and this is considered to be a good breath that balances all of that.

  Michelle: It can also boost oxygenation and mental clarity. And how you do it is you raise your arms up and you have your hands out. So your hands are completely open and your arms are just raised up, and you inhale as you do that, And as you exhale, you close your hands and you bring your elbows to the side, so you bring your hands down so you inhale with your hands up. [00:16:00] stretch hands, and then you exhale forcefully as you bring it down, as if you're bringing something down or pulling something towards you from the top to the bottom.

  Michelle: So your elbows basically end up by your side and completely folded with your hands next to your shoulders in a fist. So inhale, bring your hands up. Wide open, exhale really forcefully as your hands go down into a fist next to your shoulders.

  Michelle: So this is kind of related to the breath of fire. There's definitely a lot of heat that will be coming out from it, It is a very good practice to really get that energy moving. If you feel like it's stuck. This is great. If you feel a lot of stress and you feel a lot going on. If you wanna come home and you feel like you've had a very stressful day, this is a great way to break that up.

  Michelle: So lastly, I'm going to cover something called Ari, or. Humming bee breath.

  Michelle: [00:17:00] So actually this breath and the way you're supposed to do it is one thing that we know for sure is a technique that stimulates the vagus nerve. And as we know, the vagus nerve is extremely important when it comes to reproductive health That's because it has so many different functions, and one of them, which is really key, is promoting really good digestive health, lowering inflammation, improving sleep, and on and on.

  Michelle: And it basically helps the body get into a parasympathetic mode. And one of the ways that is known to stimulate your vagus nerve is by humming. So this breath And another thing is that when you do hum on an exhale, you are actually by nature because you're using your voice, you slow down your breath.

  Michelle: So this is a great way to slow down your breath as you are exhaling.

  Michelle: So this can also reduce any emotional tension And it could also reduce heart rate and blood pressure.

  Michelle: so what you do for [00:18:00] this breath is inhale, fully hold it at the top, and then exhale with a humming sound. So.

  Michelle: And then you just breathe all the way out. So as you'll notice when you're humming, you actually slow down your breath, so it naturally slows down your breath, which has an immediate impact on any kind of state of anxiety. It will really calm your mind. So this is an amazing thing to do, and you can really do this while you're driving.

  Michelle: Just keep your eyes open for obvious reasons, But you could do this even while you're driving. If you're driving to a doctor's office and you're feeling really nervous, you can do that. a lot of times, om in my car, and this is just kind of one of the things that I do, and I find that it really, it, it feels like I'm singing a song, but I'm just oing.

  Michelle: So it feels really calming on my nervous system. It feels like an internal massage, having that vibration. So that can help a lot. And again, you could do this also at the end of the day if you had a lot of. Things [00:19:00] going on if it was a very intense day, and you can get yourself ready and your nervous system ready for more rest.

  Michelle: And actually that was not my last one. I have one more. and this is something that you can do at all times, and it's called UJA breathing. So if you practice yoga, you may have heard of UJA breathing because it's something that a lot of yogis will teach you to do during your yoga practice, and that is something that you can take with you really throughout the day. And what it is, is causing a little bit of constriction in your throat as you're breathing So that your breath could be a little louder. So it's kind of like this constriction where you're able to feel the breath going through your throat. so it's like making a little bit of a, a humming or a sound while your mouth is closed and you could practice. I'm sure you've done this naturally, even when you were little, And it's a very calming and very grounding breath.

  Michelle: It is thought to increase the lung capacity, and it's [00:20:00] also thought to balance out the heat in the body, and it's also thought to balance out the temperature in the body. So it's kind of like a yin and yang balance.

  Michelle: And it can also, since it's so grounding, promote a meditative state. So it's something that you can do, and this is one of the reasons why a lot of yogis use this during yoga, because ultimately yoga was a, was a practice that prepared yogis to meditate. It got the body into a state where it was able to meditate more deeply.

  Michelle: So just to reiterate, none of this is medical advice. It's not something that should ever take the place of what doctors tell you It should not be something that ever takes the place of medical.

  Michelle: Protocols that you've been given, and also to be aware or talk to your doctor if you are going through IVF, to talk to them about different breathing exercises and perhaps to pause on any of them during the IVF process. [00:21:00] If you have any questions or ideas for future episodes, I would love to hear from you.

  Michelle: I'm very active on Instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. I don't always respond right away, but I always eventually get to all of them. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.

  [00:22:00] 

Ep 338 Eggs, Estrogen & Empowerment: Navigating Fertility with Dr. Nirali Jain

 On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md), a board-certified OB/GYN and reproductive endocrinologist at Reproductive Medical Associates (RMA). Dr. Jain shares her expert insights on fertility preservation for individuals undergoing cancer treatment, a crucial yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive care.

We explore what options are available for fertility preservation, including egg and sperm freezing, and why it’s so important to initiate these discussions before starting chemotherapy or radiation. Dr. Jain also explains the difference between Letrozole and Clomid, the impact of estrogen-sensitive cancers on IVF treatments, and innovative approaches like random-start cycles and DuoStim protocols. Whether you're facing a cancer diagnosis or simply thinking proactively about your reproductive future, this conversation is filled with knowledge and reassurance.

Guest Bio:

Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md) is a board-certified OB/GYN and fertility specialist at Reproductive Medicine Associates (RMA) in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. She earned both her undergraduate degree in neurobiology (with a minor in dance!) and her medical degree from Northwestern University, before completing her residency at Weill Cornell/NYP, where she served as co-Chief Resident, and her fellowship in reproductive endocrinology and infertility at NYU Langone.

Deeply passionate about women’s health and fertility preservation, Dr. Jain blends the latest research and cutting-edge treatments with compassionate, patient-centered care. Her interests include third-party reproduction and oncofertility, and she is especially passionate about supporting patients navigating fertility preservation through a cancer diagnosis.

Outside of the clinic, Dr. Jain is a trained dancer, a dedicated global traveler, and an adventurer working toward hiking all seven continents with her husband. Her diverse experiences, from international medical rotations to personal connections with friends and family navigating infertility, have shaped her into a warm, resourceful, and determined advocate for her patients.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Visit RMA website
Follow Dr. Nirali Jain on Instagram


 

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• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast Jain. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Thanks so much for having me

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so.

  Michelle Oravitz: I'm very excited to talk about this topic, which, um, actually you don't really hear a lot of people talking about, which is how to preserve your fertility if you're going through a cancer diagnosis and if you have to go through treatments. 'cause obviously that can impact a lot on fertility.

  Michelle Oravitz: I have, um, seen actually like a colleague of mine go through. And she also preserved her fertility and, and now she has a baby boy. so it's really nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: to

  riverside_nirali_jain_raw-video-cfr_michelle_oravitz's _0181: so nice.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I'd love for you first to introduce yourself and kind Of give us a background on how you got into this work.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. Um, so I am Dr. Narly Jane. I am, um, an OB GYN by training, and then I did an additional, after completing four years of residency in OB GYN and getting board certified in that, I did an additional training in reproductive endocrinology and [00:01:00] infertility or otherwise known as REI. So now I'm a fertility specialist.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, I trained at Northwestern in Chicago, so I went to undergrad and medical school there. And then, um, home has always been New Jersey for me, so I moved back out east to New Jersey. Um, I did all my training actually in New York City at Cornell for residency and NYU for fellowship. Um, and then moved to the suburbs.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, and now I'm a fertility specialist in, in Basking Ridge at Reproductive Medical Associates. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Very impressive background. That's awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: I'd love to hear just really. About what your process is. If a person has been diagnosed with cancer, like what is the process? What are some of the things that you address if they are trying to preserve fertility, and what are some of the concerns going 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah, yeah. All great questions. So, you know, there's a lot of us, uh, the Reis. Are a very small, [00:02:00] there's a very small number of us. So in terms of specializing in fertility preservation, technically we all are certified to treat patients with cancer and kind of move them through fertility preservation before starting chemotherapy.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, luckily we've been working closely with oncologists in the past several years just to establish some type of streamlined system because having a diagnosis of cancer and hearing all that information. Especially when you're young is so hard. So I think that's, that's where my interest started in terms of being able to speak to and counsel cancer patients.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think it is a very specific niche that you really have to be comfortable with in our field. Um, I. So I'll kind of walk you through, you know, what it, what does it look like, right? Um, you go into your oncologist's office suspecting that you have this, this lump. I'll take breast cancer, for example. It could really be any kind of cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but breast cancer in a reproductive age patient or someone that's in those years where you're starting [00:03:00] to think about building a family, planning a family, um, or if you have kids at home, that's usually the type of patient that we see come in with a breast cancer diagnosis. So. Kinda just taking that, for example, um, the minute that you're diagnosed, it's really your oncologist's responsibility to counsel you on what treatment options are going to be offered to you.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And then based off of the treatment options, it's important to know how that affects your reproduction. So how does it affect your ovaries in the short term, in the long term, um, in any way possible. So. Once a patient is initially referred from their oncologist to myself or any other fertility specialist, they come into my office and we just have a 30 minute conversation really talking about family planning goals.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Any kids that they've had in the past either naturally conceived or through um, IVF, and then we talk about where they're at in their relationship. Are they married, are they not? Are they with a partner, [00:04:00] a male partner, a female partner, whatever it might be. It's important to know the social standpoint, um, especially in this sensitive phase of life.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So patient patients usually spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um, just kind of talking through where they're at, how they're feeling, what their ultimate childbearing goals are. And then from there we do an ultrasound and that's when I'm really able to see, you know, the, the reproductive status.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So what do the ovaries look like? What does the uterus look like? Is there something that I need to be concerned about from a baseline GYN standpoint? Um, and all of those conversations are happening in real time. So. I think one of the things is patients come in and they're like, I'm already so overwhelmed with all this information from my oncologist, and now my fertility specialist is throwing all this information at me.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Luckily, the way I like to frame it is you come in and you just let go. Like you let us do the work because in the background we're the ones talking to your oncologist. We're the [00:05:00] ones giving that feedback and creating a timeline with your oncologist. Um, and really I think just getting in the door is the hardest part.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So once patients are here to see us, we go through the whole workup. We do anything that we would do for a normal patient that came in for fertility preservation. And then based off of where they're at in their journey, we talk about what makes sense for them, whether that means freezing embryos, freezing eggs, they're very similar in terms of the, the few weeks leading up to the egg retrievals.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I have that whole conversation just at the initial visit. And then from there we talk about the timeline behind the scenes and make sure that it works with their lives before moving forward.

  Michelle Oravitz: So for people listening to this, why, and this might be an obvious question, but to some it might not be, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: why would somebody want to preserve. eggs or sperm. 'cause I've had actually some couples 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep.

  Michelle Oravitz: come to me where the husband preserved the sperm and they had to go through IVF just because he was going [00:06:00] through cancer treatments. So he had to preserve the sperm ahead of time. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: people need to consider doing that before doing cancer treatments? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So there are certain cancer treatments that do affect the ovaries and the sperm health, and you know, for men and women, it affects your reproductive organs. In a similar way, um, depending on the type of chemotherapeutic agent, there are some that are more dangerous in terms of, um, being toxic to your ovaries or toxic to your sperm.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And those are the instances where we are really thinking about what's the long-term impact because there's medications that oncologists do give patients, and our oncologists are amazing, the ones that we work with, Memorial Sloan Kettering from Reproductive Medical Associates through RMA, um, and.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: They're just so good at what they do and are so well-trained, so they know in the back of their mind, is this going to impact your ovaries or your sperm health or not? Um, and I [00:07:00] think that any chemotherapy, you know, your ovaries are these, these small organs that are constantly turning over follicles every month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So every month we're losing those eggs, and if they don't become. If an egg isn't ovulated, it doesn't become a baby, it's just gonna die off. So I counsel even patients that don't have cancer, I counsel them on fertility preservation as young as possible. You know, between the ages of 28 and 35, that's like the best time to preserve your fertility.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So in cancer patients, there's an extra level added to that where even if they are a little bit younger, a little bit older. Your eggs are not gonna be the same quality. There's gonna be higher level of chromosomal errors, more DNA breakage, um, and, and bigger issues that lead to issues with conceiving naturally afterwards.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I think that it's important to consider how that chemotherapy is going to affect them or how surgery would affect them if it was, for example, a GYN cancer where [00:08:00] we're removing a whole ovary, you know, what, what do we have to do to preserve your fertility in that case? And those are important conversations to have.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. for sure. I know that a lot of people are also concerned, you know, with going through the IVF process, you're taking in a lot of estrogen, a lot of hormones, and many cancers are actually estrogen sensitive. So I wanted to talk to you about that. 'cause I know that the data shows that it's. It's been fine, which some people might find surprising, but I wanted you to address that and just kind of

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: from your perspective. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's so interesting that you asked that question because I actually, my whole I I graduated fellowship last year and my entire, like passion project in fellowship was looking at one of the drugs that we use to suppress the estrogen levels specifically in cancer patients. Um, and I had presented this at a few of our reproductive meetings.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, A SRM is one of our annual meetings where all of the reiss get together. A lot of male fertility [00:09:00] specialists come and we kinda just talk about. Specific things and fertility preservation for cancer patients is, has been an ongoing topic of interest for all of us. Um, and it's important to know that there are different medications that we can offer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is the one that I, um, have a particular love for and I, uh, you know, I use all the time for my patients, um, for different reasons, but it suppresses the exposure that your body has to estrogen. And there's mixed data, um, out there in terms of, you know, does Letrozole suppression actually impact, you know, does it help or.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Or does it have no impact on your future risk of cancer after treatment? Um, and that honestly is still up for debate. But what we do know is that there's no increased risk of cancer recurrence in patients that have undergone fertility preservation with or without Letrozole. Um, Letrozole is one of those things that we can give, and the way it works is basically.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It masks that [00:10:00] conversion. It, it doesn't allow for conversion from those androgens in the male hormones over to estrogen. Um, and so your body doesn't really see that estrogen exposure. It stays nice and low throughout your cycle, and it does help with actually ovarian maturation and getting mature eggs harvested and, um, helps a little bit with, with quality too.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So I think that it's really nice in terms of having that available to us, but know that. It's not, it's not essential that you have it, really, the data showing plus minus. Um, but there are certain things that we can do to protect the ovaries, protect your exposure to estrogen. Um, and so that shouldn't be top of mind of concern when we're going through fertility preservation, even with an estrogen sensitive cancer.

  Michelle Oravitz: Actually, so, uh, on a different topic, kind of going back to that, so Letrozole versus Clomid, I, it's like a, the questions I personally feel just based on what I've heard and like my own research that Letrozole would be kind of like the more. [00:11:00] Um, the, it's, it's a little better, but I know that it really depends on the person as well. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: they might do better with Clom, but I'd love to hear your perspective and kind of pick your brain on this. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally. You're choosing all the, all the right questions because these are all of my, my specific interests and niches. So 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is basically, you know, we use Letrozole and Clomid in. Patients that don't have cancer and patients that come in for an intrauterine insemination, that's kind of the most common scenario where we're thinking about, you know, which medication is better?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole or Clomid and Clomid used to be the, the most common medication that we use, we dose patients, you know, have 50 milligrams of Clomid, give them five days of the medication. It's an oral pill. Feels really easy and. The way it works is really, it recruits more than one follicle, so it really helps with the release of, um, more than one follicle growing more than one follicle in the ovary.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but it has a little bit [00:12:00] higher of a risk of twins because that's exactly what it's good at. Um, Clomid, not so much in the cancer. In the cancer front, it's not really used there because it's considered, from a scientific perspective, it's considered like a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So it doesn't necessarily suppress your estrogen levels in the same way that Letrozole does versus.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor, so it really blocks the chemical conversion of one drug or one hormone to the other hormone. Um, the reason we love Letrozole so much, and I don't mean to like gush over Letrozole, but um, it's a mono follicular agent, so it works really well at recruiting one follicle 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: you know, every OB-GYN's nightmare in a way is having multiples when you didn't intend on having multiples at all.

  Michelle Oravitz: so 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um.

  Michelle Oravitz: were saying that, um, there's more of a chance of twins, it's Clomid, not letrozole. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yes, there's a higher chance with Clomid versus Letrozole. And I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a chance of twins with [00:13:00] any type of assisted reproductive technology. Even when we're doing single embryo transfers, there's a chance that it's gonna split. So, um, the chance is always there just like it is in the natural world.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: But we know for a fact that. CLO is really good at recruiting many follicles. It's good for certain patients that don't respond well to Letrozole. Um, but Letrozole is kind of our, our go-to drug these days just because of all the benefits that we've seen. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: These are all fun things to ask because I, I love talking to our eis 'cause there's so much information that I'm always 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally.

  Michelle Oravitz: learn a lot from my patients in my own research, but it's really cool. Picking your guys' brains. So another question I have, and I have actually talked to Dr. Andrea Elli, he's been on, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: and he does a lot of endometriosis and, and immune related work as well, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: so. I'd love to know just from your perspective. One thing that I do know from, based on what I've heard is that the, [00:14:00] guess like you were just saying, that breast cancer or estrogen sensitive breast cancer doesn't seem to be affected by IVF cycles, however, and endometriosis lesions do get affected. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: that's a great question. So, you know, every, there are so many complex G mind diagnoses that the, that our patients come in with. Um, and endometriosis is a big one because there is clear data that endometriosis is linked to infertility. So we think about, you know, when a patient comes in with endometriosis, we really do think about the different treatment options and what are the short-term and long-term impacts of the hormones that we're giving 'em.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, these days, again, kind of going back to Letrozole, we, letrozole is something that I give all of my endometriosis patients because it helps suppress their estrogen because we know. 

  Michelle Oravitz: interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: is very responsive to estrogen and leads to this dysfunctional regulation of all the endometrial tissue that can really flare in a, [00:15:00] in a cycle, or shortly after a cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I. So we really, for endometriosis patients, the, the best treatment is being on birth control because we don't see that hormonal fluctuation. The up and down of the estrogen and the progesterone, that's what leads to those flares. Um, so I really, I watch patients closely after their cycles too, because you definitely can have an endometriosis flare and we say the best treatment for endometriosis is pregnancy, right?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's when you're suppressed, that's when you're at your lowest. Um, and patients, my endo patients feel so good in pregnancy because they have. Hormones that are nice in that baseline, they're not getting periods of course. Um, and that's truly, truly the best treatment. 

  Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: But it is important to consider when you're going through infertility treatments.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: How does my endometriosis affect the short and long-term effects of the fertility medications? And really not to, not to say that they're bad in any way. I think a lot of endometriosis patients go through IVF and have success and do really, really well, and that's kind of the push that they need. [00:16:00] Um, but it's important to be mindful of the bigger picture here.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It's not just, you're not just a number of. A patient with endo coming in, getting the same protocol. It's really individualized to the extent of your lesions, what symptoms you're having, what grade of endometriosis, where your lesions are. So we're the RAs are thinking about everything before we actually start your protocol.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's crazy how in depth it is, and it's, it, there's just so, it's so multifaceted, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: when it's females 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: totally.

  Michelle Oravitz: are a little, I mean, they can, you know, there, there's definitely a number of things, but it's not as complicated and interconnected 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Exactly. Exactly. That's so true.

  Michelle Oravitz: And so one question I actually have, this is kind of really off topic, but something that I was curious about.

  Michelle Oravitz: 'cause I heard about a while 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: a, a type of cancer treatment that was used. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but for some reason it actually caused follicles to grow, [00:17:00] or to multiply. And they were

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: this definitely. Puts, um, the whole idea of like a woman being born with all the follicles she'll ever have on its head, I thought that was really Interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: Now I learned a little bit about it. I don't think it really went further than that, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle Oravitz: one of those things that they're like, Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know, it was kind of a random side effect of this chemo drug. I dunno if it was a chemo drug or a cancer drug. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: ever heard of that.

  Michelle Oravitz: So I was just

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I haven't, I mean, that's interesting. I feel like I'd have to look into that because that would be definitely a point of interest for a lot of Reis. But it kind of does go back to the point of, you know, women are really born with all the eggs we're ever gonna have. So it's about a million, and then it just goes down from there.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And the, by the time you start having periods, I like to kind of show my patients a chart, but you have a couple hundred thousand eggs and you ovulate one egg a month. That's, you know. Able to [00:18:00] progress into a fertilized egg and then into a, an embryo into a baby, um, if that's your goal. But otherwise, patients that are having periods and not trying to actually get pregnant, we're losing hundreds of eggs a month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: It's important to kind of think about that decline, and it's important to know that that rate can be faster in patients with cancer, patients with low ovarian reserve. And sometimes when you have the two compounded, that's when a fertility specialist is definitely, you know, in the queue to, to have a discussion with you in terms of what that means and how you can reach your family building goals despite being faced with that, with that challenge.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: I mean, 'cause we know oxidative stress is one of the things that can cause, uh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: quality eggs, but it's also can cause cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: um, similar, you know, like things that really deplete the body could definitely impact. Um, and then what are your thoughts? I know I'm asking you all kinds of random questions,

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I love it.

  Michelle Oravitz: are your thoughts about doing low simulation in certain [00:19:00] circumstances versus high stem?

  Michelle Oravitz: Sometimes people don't respond as well to higher stems. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, that's a great point. I think that it kind of all goes back to creating an individualized protocol. If. A patient's going to a practice and basically just getting a protocol saying, this is our standard. We start with our standard of, you know, I, I think about the standard, which is 300 of the FSH or that pen that you dial up, and then 150 units of that powder vial.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And we have patients mixing powders all the time, and that's kind of our blanket protocol that we give patients. But that's not really what's happening behind the scenes. And if you're given a protocol that's, and being told, you know, this is kind of what we give to everyone, it's probably not the right fit for you.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, there are certain patients that respond to a much lower dose and do really, really well, and then some patients that need a much higher dose. Um, and I think it's, that's kind of like the fun part of being an REI of being able to individualize the [00:20:00] protocol to the patient. Um, and I know for a fact there are so many, luckily, you know, we have so many leaders in REI that have been.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Have dedicated their entire careers to researching these different protocols and how they can help different patients. Um, patients with lower a MH, you know, might benefit from a duo stim protocol, for example. That's kind of the first one that comes to mind, but a protocol where we're using those follicles from the second half of a cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I would've never thought that those were the follicles that 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: would be better than the first half of the cycle, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Wait, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: but,

  Michelle Oravitz: that. Explain that. Um, because I think that that's kind of a unique 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: mm-hmm. 

  Michelle Oravitz: that I haven't heard of. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, so there's this new day. It's still kind of developing, but um, kind of going back to, you know, what's an individualized protocol? Duo STEM is one of the newer protocols that we've started using. I, I've used it once or twice in patients. Um, but it goes back to the research that shows that you might actually have two different periods of time in a menstrual cycle where you could potentially recruit [00:21:00] follicles.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: You could have a follicular phase where there's a certain cohort of follicles recruited, and then you have a follicle that forms creates a corpus glut. 

  Michelle Oravitz: um, protocols 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep. And then you basically go through the follicular protocol and then a few days after a retrieval, instead of waiting for a new follicular cohort or follicular recruitment from the first half of your menstrual cycle, you actually use the luteal phase and you recruit those follicles that would've actually died off or have been prematurely recruited in a prior cycle.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So

  Michelle Oravitz: that's So 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: you just do a similar, I guess, um, medicine, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: go right back into it. 

  Michelle Oravitz: do the same exact thing, but right after ovulation. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Fascinating. That's really interesting. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: has been your experience with that? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think it's, honestly, it's mixed. Um, so far, you know, our data from fertility and sterility and A SRM, it, it shows support for these DUO STEM [00:22:00] protocols, saying that if patients don't have that great quality of eggs or if they have a very low number, maybe they'd benefit from starting the meds earlier and recruiting follicles.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: A little bit earlier. Um, so we've seen positive results so far. A lot of work to be done in terms of really understanding it. Um, and of course, as a new attending, I have a lot more experience to kind of build on. Um, but I, I have seen success from it.

  Michelle Oravitz: That's fascinating. Are there any other new technologies, like new add-ons, um, that you've seen, that you've found to be really cool or interesting? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think the biggest thing, actually, kind of going back to our whole topic for today is fertility preservation cancer patients. One of the biggest things that I've learned recently is that we used to start fertility, um, patients. You know, only in the beginning of the cycle days, two or three is technically like when most.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Most clinics, um, start patients, but for our cancer patients, sometimes you don't have that time. You don't wanna wait a full month to [00:23:00] restart, um, your, you know, your menstrual cycle and then do the fertility preservation and then delay chemotherapy a full month. So we started doing what we call random starts.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So you basically start a patient whenever they come in. You know, it could be the day after your consultation, the day of your consultation. I've kind of seen all of the above. Um, and we've seen really good success with random starts, per se. Um, and we've been doing a lot more of that, where it's not as dependent on where you're at in your cycle.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, obviously there's a difference in outcomes. You might not be a great candidate for it, so definitely it's worth talking to your doctor about it. But it kind of gives relief to our cancer patients where if you have a new cancer diagnosis and you're like, oh, I just finished my period, like, I can't even start a cycle until next month.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's not always true. Um, so it's always worth it to go into see a fertility specialist and just get, you know, get the data that you need right away, and then you can make a decision later on.

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. Um, Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: and I wanted to kind of cover a lot of different topics 'cause I know that [00:24:00] some people are gonna wanna hear what you have to say that don't necessarily, or, uh, have cancer. But it is important. I, I think that, you know, if you get to thirties and you haven't gotten married or you don't have a partner, I think it's really important to preserve your fertility in general. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: important thing. And then if you were going through a cancer diagnosis and you decided to preserve your fertility, um, guess more for women because they're eventually going to be thinking about transfers after they go through treatment. So what are some of the things that they would need to consider as far as that goes?

  Michelle Oravitz: Like after the 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: then they go through the cancer treatments. Um, and then what, how long should they 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah. Like what does it look like? So I've had patients that come back, you know, in my fellowship training I did a, a couple research projects on patients that came back to pursue an embryo transfer, um, after chemotherapy agent. And basically compared them to how they did, um, [00:25:00] compared to patients that didn't have cancer and just froze their embryos or froze their eggs and then came back to pursue a transfer and.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I think the, the most reassuring thing from the preliminary data that we have is saying that there's no difference in pregnancy rates and no difference in life birth, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: of whether they had chemotherapy or not. After freezing those eggs and going through fertility preservation. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Amazing. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, in terms of where your body needs to be, I think the oncologist, we, we wait for their green light.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: We wait for their signal to say, you know, she's safe to carry a pregnancy. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And then once we do that, we basically treat you like any other patient. So if you're coming in for a cycle, if you're having periods, then it's reasonable to try a natural cycle protocol, wait for your body to naturally ovulate an egg.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: And instead of obviously hoping that egg will fertilize, we, um, use a corpus luteum. We use the progesterone from the corpus luteum to really support this embryo being implanted into the uterus. Um. Yeah. [00:26:00] And then there's also another side. I mean, some patients don't get their periods back and they always ask like, what if I never get my period back?

  Dr. Nirali Jain: What if I'm just like in menopause because of the chemotherapy agents? And for that, we can start you on a synthetic protocol or basically an estrogen dependent protocol where you take an estrogen pill for a certain number of days. We monitor your lining, then we start progesterone, um, to support your hormones from that perspective instead of relying on your ovaries to release the progesterone that they need, um, and then doing the embryo transfer a few, few days after progesterone starts.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So there's definitely different protocols depending on where your menstrual health is at after the chemotherapy or after the cancer treatment. Um, but it's important to kind of just know that. That there's options. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the road if you all of a sudden stop getting your period.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. I mean, 'cause you, technically speaking, you can really control a lot of that. More so for transfers 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yep.

  Michelle Oravitz: Retrievals really is kind of like what [00:27:00] eggs you have, what the quality is. But people can be in complete menopause and you guys can still control their cycles for transfer, which is kind of. A huge difference 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, 

  Michelle Oravitz: in the 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: interesting. Any other, um, new, new things that you're, you guys are excited about? I always like to hear about like the new and upcoming things 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. 

  Michelle Oravitz: actually before, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I feel like there's always like updates and, and new data and things like that coming out, but just know, I think it's important for patients to know, like we're constantly, we're, the reason I chose to even pursue this field was because it's new. Right. There's something that we are discovering every day, every year, and that's what makes our, our conferences so important to attend, um, to really just stay up to date.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, but we are, uh, constantly updating our embryology standards, the way we thaw our eggs, and the success rate associated with a thaw and [00:28:00] how we treat our embryos and the media that we use, right? Like, so we're really thinking about the basic science perspective every single day, and that's what makes this field so unique.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is really awesome. And so do you guys specialize specifically on, um. Egg freezing and, and I mean specific fertility preservation in patients that do that have cancer that are going through treatments, do you guys specialize specifically in that? I mean, I know you do range 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. Yeah, because it's such a small community, we all have our own niches and we all kind of have our own interests and 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: no like specific training. There are a couple courses that you take that I took in in training as well, just to kind of understand what it sounds like to, I. Council of fertility preservation, patient with and without cancer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Um, and then, you know, you kind of just learn by experience and you form a niche for something that you're passionate about. 'cause that's what makes you, you know, really thorough in, in your treatment. [00:29:00] So that's one of my interests. Um, and, but I would say, 

  Michelle Oravitz: training for that. It's just like 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: just know how to treat that in 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly. 

  Michelle Oravitz: especially if you're interested in doing that. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Exactly. That's exactly right. It's kind of, it just comes with the experience comes with your mentors and who you're surrounded by, and everyone kind of helps each other get to that point. But there are several specialists in our practice at RMA that specialize specifically in fertility preservation in cancer patients.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So we have a close communication with our oncologist and they know who to refer to within the practice because everyone has their own little interests. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Amazing. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah.

  Michelle Oravitz: Um, definitely. I, like I said, I really enjoy picking your brain because it's a lot of fun for me. I, I do 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Totally. 

  Michelle Oravitz: acupuncture, so 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: and I, I think that it's just so crazy that our fields don't work together. I mean, we kind of do, but I think, I just feel like it would be so great 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: exactly.[00:30:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: the expertise because you guys have immense. Benefits like in, in, uh, technology and incredible innovations and, and then the natural aspect of really understanding the, the body. And I, I just think that it would work so amazing together if it was more of like a thing. 'cause it, I know in China they actually combine the two 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: eastern. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah, I mean I think that that's so important and there is data that shows, you know, there's actually a recent study that came out just a few weeks ago on the benefits of acupuncture for fertility patients. And we know that, I mean, I recommend it to all of my patients, specifically the day of the embryo transfer.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: We, luckily, we offer it on site at RMA and we have acupuncturists that come in and, and do a session before and after the embryo transfer, and I think. A lot of that is targeted towards stress relief. But I also think that holistically it's important to feel at your best when we're doing something that's so crucial to your, to your health.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So to really focus on the diet, focus on stress relief, [00:31:00] focus on meditation, yoga, whatever it takes to get to your best wellbeing when you're going through fertility treatments, um, is so important. So I appreciate 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: like you that really specialize in the other side of. Of this, because I do consider it still part of the holistic medicine that we need to really maximize success for our patients.

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: Jane, this is such a pleasure Of talking to you. You've given us some, so much great information and we've definitely dived into a, do a topic that I don't typically, I haven't yet spoken about. But, um, that being said, it's such an important topic to talk about. And thank you so much for coming on today.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: course.

  Michelle Oravitz: I get off, how can people find you? 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: That's a great question. So I have, um, a social media page. I, it's called Expert nc. So like EGG, 

  Michelle Oravitz: I 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: um, expert nc. Try, tried to make it a little bit humorous. Um, but I'm all over social [00:32:00] media and would love to hear from anyone that is listening. I, you know, every, every day I get different, um, dms and I'm happy to respond.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: I love hearing about everyone else's. Stories and things like that. Um, so that is kind of my main, main social media platform. Um, and then through like RMA and Reproductive Medical Associates, we also have a YouTube channel. We have an Instagram page, um, of our office available, um, as well that is public.

  Dr. Nirali Jain: So you can find us pretty easily if you just kind of hit Google. But um, yeah, I'm kind of developing my social media platform as the expert and I hope it grows. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Love it. Great. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. so much

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Thank you.

  Michelle Oravitz: today. 

  Dr. Nirali Jain: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. 

  [00:33:00] 

Ep 337 You’ve Tried Everything for Endo… But Have You Tried This?

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into a powerful and often overlooked connection in reproductive health, the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

While many approaches to managing endometriosis focus on supplements, surgery, or hormonal therapies, few consider the role of the vagus nerve in regulating inflammation, digestion, and nervous system balance. In this episode, I break down how vagal tone directly influences endo symptoms, and why it could be the missing piece in your healing journey.

I also share practical and accessible tools to stimulate vagal tone, from breathwork and cold exposure to acupuncture and mindfulness techniques. Whether you have endometriosis or are simply looking to support your fertility naturally, this episode offers actionable insights to help you regulate your body’s stress response and boost overall well-being.

Key Takeaways: 

• Endometriosis is not just a hormonal issue—it’s also tied to inflammation, gut health, and nervous system function.

• Research shows women with endometriosis often have lower vagal tone, which can worsen symptoms.

• Improving vagal tone can reduce inflammation and support digestion, egg quality, and hormonal balance.

• Simple practices like belly breathing, humming, and ear massage can stimulate the vagus nerve.

• Heart rate variability (HRV) is a useful tool for tracking nervous system health and vagal tone.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

  So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

  The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times. On the bladder or the intestines, if it's really, really severe each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

  So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

  This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So it's really fascinating.

  It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this. And if you wanna find out more, stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  /

  Michelle Oravitz: Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

  So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus. Called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

  The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times on the bladder or the intestines if it's really, really severe. Each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

  So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

  This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So. It's really fascinating.

  It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this and if you wanna find out more, stay tuned. 

  So now that I mentioned what endometriosis is and really the condition and how it can impact your fertility health, I'm gonna also talk about vagal tone and really what the connection is between the vagal tone and endometriosis. If you heard some of my earlier episodes, you'll know that I talk a lot about the vagus nerve and about how the nervous system is so impactful when it comes to reproductive health.

  It's gotten to the point where that has become my [00:03:00] obsession as a fertility practitioner. It is so important and it really explains the yin and the yang process and really how the body's able to get into a homeostasis and regulate itself. And it's so pivotal when it comes to fertility health. So the vagus nerve is a cranial nerve, and it's the largest cranial nerve in the body, but it plays an incredibly important role.

  And I've mentioned this before, but I'm gonna mention it again in case you haven't seen it before. What it does is it actually communicates with the enteric nervous system which is your digestive nervous system, and it's , hundreds of millions of neurons that go throughout your whole digestive process.

  And it can be one of the causes for people having issues with digestion when there's a low vagal tone. Because it is so impactful when it comes to digestion, and one of the things that Vagus nerve does is that it impacts the parasympathetic or rest and digest [00:04:00] aspect of the body. So when your body is in parasympathetic, that is the optimal time to digest food, and it can also cause a more.

  Calm state of mind where your body is not in fight or flight, but it's more regenerative. So when it is in fight or flight, it's a little bit more of a sympathetic response. Now, there's nothing wrong with being in the sympathetic response. It's not like the bad state to be in. It's actually part of our nervous system and part of the autonomic nervous system, which composes of both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic.

  But when it becomes too chronic, then it can cause a lot of different problems, and the body gets into a more survival state. So vagal tone basically refers to the vagus nerve's ability to function. So the stronger it is, the stronger it functions, the stronger the vagal tone. One of the ways that you can actually measure vagal tone is through something called heart rate variability, HRV, [00:05:00] and you can see many different apps, many different devices that actually measure that.

  And HeartMath Institute also discusses a lot about that, and they talk about the heart brain coherence, and they look at. Heart rate variability and vagal tone. And there was actually certain types of exercises, , that you can do to actually increase vagal tone and increase heart rate variability and also increase.

  Just by doing so, heart, brain coherence. So the higher the heart brain coherence and the higher the heart rate variability, the more calm we feel, the better state that we have. And apparently in conditions of endometriosis, the vagal tone. Is actually lower. So one of the things that I would definitely suggest if you do have endometriosis is to improve that vagal tone.

  And I'm gonna be discussing many, many different ways to do that. So as we know with endometriosis, one of the things that it's linked to is [00:06:00] digestive issues. And the higher the vagal tone and the better the biggest nerve is functioning, the better it can talk to and basically communicate with the enteric nervous system, which is really your.

  Digestive nervous system. And so we know that when we stimulate the vagus nerve, it can actually improve your digestive system. And when that happens, you're not only improving your ability to take in nutrients, but you're also decreasing the inflammation in the body, which is really pivotal when it comes to not just endometriosis, but egg quality and overall.

  Fertility health. So this is something that anybody who's going through the fertility journey, male or female, can benefit from regardless if you have endometriosis or not. So just to kind of go back on the endometriosis topic, one of the ways really the only true way that you can know if you have endometriosis is by getting [00:07:00] a laparoscopy.

  It is a surgery, so I'm not saying to go and do that. However, if you suspect that you might have endometriosis based on inflammation, gut imbalance, really strong menstrual pain, pain with periods and kind of lower back pain around that time, then you could still do this because you're gonna benefit from it anyway.

  So I would go and talk to your doctor if you do suspect that you have endometriosis to get your options. So besides looking at heart rate variability, you may kind of realize if your heart rate variability is high or your vagal tone is high based on how well you get back from really stressful situations.

  So if you are the type of person that. Gets anxious pretty easily. Startles really easily has like an off nervous system, gets really nervous around people. That's okay to a certain extent, if it's not [00:08:00]chronic, if it's not something that's really impacting your life. But if it is impacting your life and it's something that happens and when you get out of those environments that trigger that.

  You continue feeling like that, that may mean that you have a lower vagal tone, which means that you're not able to adapt from one state of stress to a more calm state of your nervous system. So while that doesn't confirm heart rate variability, and ultimately the best thing to do is really to measure it, and you can measure it with many devices like even, or ring, you know, there's many devices that actually track your body and your heart rate variability.

  And that would be the ultimate way to confirm it, but there are definitely symptoms that you can feel as well. So studies do confirm that women have a lower vagal tone if they have endometriosis, and that a lower vagal tone is also linked with higher inflammatory conditions. , some of the things in life that can impact [00:09:00] vagal tone really do have to do with high stress.

  So if you're constantly exposed to high stress in your life, that can impact your vagal tone. And also, I've mentioned this before, it's really important to know that if you do have high stress. It's not the end of the world if you have some stress, but high stress chronically can really impact your overall health and it can also throw off your nervous system balance.

  So even if you have IBS or any kind of gut conditions or inflammation or bloating, I'll be covering things that will also benefit you as well. So what's pretty amazing is that there have been studies, actually animal studies that have shown that increasing that vagus nerve stimulation, which will improve the vagus nerve function has been shown to decrease lesions in animals of endometriosis.

  This is thought to be because vagus [00:10:00] nerve stimulation can regulate and decrease inflammatory markers in the body. So I'm gonna cover a few ways that you can stimulate your vagus nerve overall. I. So breath work is amazing and it works with the diaphragm, especially belly breath. So as a child, you probably knew how to breathe. You'll see babies breathe from their bellies because that belly breath is actually the way we're supposed to breathe.

  But as we get older, we actually learn habits that are not really great for breathing. So belly breath is really good. So you could put your hand right underneath your. Ribs, which is where your diaphragm is, and start to use that, really the diaphragm as a muscle and breathe in and out and do this a couple of times a day to retrain yourself.

  To breathe from the belly. I remember not doing that. And then years ago, learning and retraining myself to the point where it became unconscious and I was just a [00:11:00] belly breather. And it really impacted how I felt in general because I used to have generalized social anxiety. And I remember going in for body work.

  A massage and the woman said, oh, you're a belly breather. So it, it is something that I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of myself that I actually trained myself. I wasn't even focusing on trying, and she noticed it. So it is something that you can train yourself. It's a habit that we have. It becomes unconscious.

  So just like a good habit can become unconscious, a bad habit can become unconscious, but you can also change that bad habit to a good unconscious habit. So I've talked about slow, deep breathing, but you can also do something called box breathing, which is inhale to four, hold to four, exhale to four, and then hold out to four.

  And then you can slowly increase that with time. I remember when I used to teach Kundalini yoga, we had something called, it was like the meditation [00:12:00] aspect of the yoga training, and it was something called the 16 seconds.

   breath. We would breathe in so it's not quite the box. It would breathe in to 20, hold for 20, breathe out to 20 and that's 60 seconds.

  And doing so really calms the mind. And of course you'd have to work yourself up to doing that and not do that right off the bat. 'cause it is very hard and it is a practice you have to build up to. So another thing that can help stimulate the biggest nerve is cold exposure. Now with Chinese medicine, you may have heard me say that it's not really great to have chronic cold exposure.

  So I often tell people, keep your feet warm or put socks on and don't put your feet on cold tile. Now this is. A chronic thing, this is doing something day in and day out. And also we do have our first kidney point on the bottom of our feet. The kidneys are in charge of our reproductive health, so you don't want that coldness from the tile to come up from the feet [00:13:00] into the channels.

  So this is why I say that for a day in and day out. But once in a while, you can give yourself a little cold exposure. Doing so, like maybe doing a quick cold shower once in a while is okay. Now, if you are, of course this isn't for everybody. If you are somebody who tends to be cold all the time, this may not be for you.

  But what they do find is that that quick stress effect of the cold exposure, like even a cold plunge. Can actually stimulate the vagus nerve. So it's a quick stress response. And then the body goes from stress, which is the sympathetic to parasympathetic. It starts to stimulate that nervous system regulation.

  Another thing that can really be beneficial is gargling or humming. And I personally love to ohm. If I feel really stressed, even if I'm driving, I just om or hum what humming does. Is, it actually slows down your breath. And you may have heard me say this before in [00:14:00] previous episodes, is that when you breathe slow and deep, you actually calm your nervous system.

  So, and especially your exhale. So the longer your exhale, the calmer your nervous system, and the more it's gonna go into parasympathetic mode. So when you're inhaling and you're exhaling with a hum, it slows it down. It actually stops it from being cleared fast. Of course, meditation and mindfulness. Now, what meditation does is it really gets us to a state of receptivity and a state of listening.

  When we're in meditation, we're paying attention to ourselves, even ourselves, when we're anxious or we're feeling uncomfortable. When you're feeling that sensation, it's almost like a somatic acknowledgement of your body sensation, so you're aware, you become more aware. Of what happens when you are feeling uncomfortable, and then having those times during the day is really beneficial for that mindfulness to increase.

  Because the more [00:15:00] you give yourself opportunities to pay attention to yourself, your mind, your body, how it feels, the more mindful you become, the more you can get really tuned in with your nervous system. And that awareness has been shown to really improve your overall physiology, which in turn. Can help your nervous system regulation and your vagal tone.

  And of course, one of my favorites is acupuncture. Acupuncture can help tremendously, and we actually have a bunch of points that I use often to stimulate the vagus nerve, and part of it is an ears. So another thing that I would suggest if you can't get to acupuncture is just massage your ears or even massage your feet.

  Anything that really stimulates that calming effect. The ears are one of the ways that we can access the vagus nerve. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from this information. [00:16:00] It is information that you may not often hear. I haven't heard about it before until I stumbled upon it and I was like, Hmm, that's very interesting.

  And then the more I learn about the nervous system, the more impacts I see that it has over reproductive health. So I hope this was beneficial for you and. If you ever have any questions, ideas, or thoughts for future episodes, you can always reach out to me and DM me on Instagram where I am very active and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility.

  So thank you so much for tuning in, and I hope you have a beautiful day. So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners.

Ep 336 The Detox Organ That Quietly Shapes Your Fertility

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore one of the most underrated yet powerful organs in your fertility journey, the liver. From both a Chinese medicine and Western medicine perspective, the liver plays a pivotal role in hormone balance, detoxification, and emotional regulation. I break down the signs of liver qi stagnation (hello, PMS and irritability!), how stress directly impacts this organ’s ability to function, and why supporting your liver is essential for optimal fertility and menstrual health.

You’ll learn practical ways to give your liver the TLC it needs, from stress-reducing rituals to the best foods and herbs that support detoxification and hormone balance. Whether you’re trying to conceive naturally or going through IVF, this episode is packed with tips on how to nurture your body’s natural detox pathways and create a more fertile environment from within.

Key Takeaways: 

• The liver plays a crucial role in managing hormones, detoxifying the body, and supporting menstrual health.

• In Chinese medicine, liver qi stagnation often caused by stress is a major pattern that affects fertility.

• PMS symptoms like irritability, bloating, and breast tenderness can stem from blocked liver qi.

• Western medicine highlights the liver’s role in clearing excess estrogen, important for conditions like PCOS, endometriosis, and fibroids.

• Supporting the liver with stress management, acupuncture, breathwork, and liver-friendly foods can significantly enhance fertility outcomes.
  
  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 336 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine, as well as how western medicine perceives it and understands it, and why it is really an important organ when it comes to your fertility health.

  So stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  /

  Today I'm going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine and how it is perceived as a very important organ when it comes [00:01:00] to fertility, health and menstrual health.

  And as we know, menstrual health is really the heartbeat of fertility health. Then also as it is seen through a Western medicine lens. I'm not a western medicine doctor, but there is a more conventional way of looking at the liver, which is a bit different as you'll see to how Chinese medicine perceives the liver.

  So the liver's role according to Chinese medicine is to ensure the free flow of qi, which is life force vitality or sort of an energy, but it's way more than that.

  also stores blood. And is really important to prepare the body right before a woman begins menstruation.

  It is very much related to emotions, and its emotion is anger. I. So when the liver is stagnated and is not able to ensure the free flow [00:02:00] of QI in the body, it can cause stagnation. And one of the biggest things that causes liver chi stagnation is stress. So it's actually one of the most diagnosed condition and pattern liver tree stagnation of all patterns.

  It is one of those things that a lot of people, and this actually reflects the state of the world today, because we just have so many demands and we're constantly being bombarded with information news. And the pace that we're going on is not a typical natural pace that we're used to or ancestors used to have, where we used to be a lot more connected with nature, which calms our nervous system and helps with stress.

  So some of the common signs, and it could be some and not all, or you know, the, any one of these really. If you have a few or a number of these symptoms, it might be showing that you have [00:03:00] liver chase stagnation. So you may have noticed that at times when you feel really stressed, you hold a lot of tension in your upper shoulders.

  That is actually a response to liver cheese stagnation. You may have also felt like you're sighing really strongly when you're stressed. That is liver cheese stagnation. It's a feeling of fullness in the chest where you feel like you need to blow off steam. I. If you felt really angry, and I mean really angry, that is definitely liberty stagnation.

  Or if you're feeling more irritability, that comes and goes. That is also liberty stagnation. I.

  Liver cheese stagnation can also impact PMS. So PMS really means premenstrual syndrome, so it could be an umbrella of many different things that can come up, and it doesn't necessarily have to be irritation. It could be other things as well. So one of those things are irritation [00:04:00] or fatigue or just really any symptoms that you have before your period.

  Constipation, bloating. Breast tenderness, mood swings. So those are all things that can be really under the umbrella of PMS, really having any kind of even cramping before you get your period. What that shows is that there is energy that is stuck, and since the liver has an important role of storing the blood and preparing the body for the menstrual cycle, what happens is.

  It also has a role for ensuring the free flow of qi, and when it is trying to do one thing, it's not, and it doesn't have as much energy to begin with, then it's not able to do all of its functions all at once. And of course, it becomes very busy. Right before a woman has her period, because it's preparing that, plus it's doing its regular job of ensuring free flow of qi.

  [00:05:00] So when that free flow of QI is being backed up or stagnated from the tenseness of stress, then it's not able to do its job and therefore women will experience PMS symptoms.

  And what happens now and what I see often in my practice is that. Women do have a lot of stress, so they may show up as having many different patterns at once. So stagnation is considered a full pattern, and then there's deficiency because sometimes a full pattern can actually cause deficiency because if something gets jammed up and blocked that being full, so it's more like a blockage.

  It can cause the body to not get the nourishment and. Energy that it requires, so that a stagnation, so a full type pattern can cause a deficiency. And then sometimes a deficiency can cause a full pattern and sometimes can, and sometimes deficiency can cause a full pattern. And then what can happen too is when the cheek gets stagnated for a very long time.

  It impacts like the next in [00:06:00] line, which is blood. And when blood gets stagnated, it can cause things like fibroids because then it becomes more of a mass. And so ultimately liver cheese stagnation is one part, but it can continue and progress to something way more severe. It can also impact endometriosis as well.

  And then liver cheese stagnation can also impact the spleen. So the elements of the liver when it is too stagnated can actually what's called overact on the spleen. And the spleen in Chinese medicine is in charge of your digestion. So if you've ever been in a situation where you feel really stressed, some people will either wanna overeat and then some people won't be able to eat at all, and sometimes their stress will end up.

  Being felt in the gut, and that is your liver overacting on your spleen and stomach, which is your digestive system in Chinese medicine.

  so conventional medicine sees the liver as having a [00:07:00] very important role when it comes to detoxification of your body.

  It really is the main organ, except of course there's other ones like your colon but the liver will detoxify a lot of chemicals and what happens often too is if your colon is backed up, it actually makes the job of the liver in cleansing your system harder. So in order to really take care of the liver, you don't just focus on the liver, you also focus on your gut health.

  So as we're seeing both in conventional medicine and in and in Western medicine and in eastern medicine, the liver and digestive system do work hand in hand, even though they're two different systems in the body, but ultimately the whole body has many different systems that work like a symphony.

  Now, how this relates to your menstrual cycle Is that one of the things that the liver does is remove excess [00:08:00] estrogen from the body, so it is important to remove excess estrogen. And nowadays we also have a lot of. Hormone mimicking chemicals like xenoestrogens, which are fake estrogens, that the body confuses for estrogens.

  And ultimately, when we start to get something called estrogen dominance, it causes things like endometriosis and fibroids, many different conditions, and it can also throw off our estrogen progesterone balance. Then ultimately because hormones are this intricate, delicate symphony, it can impact your hormones as a whole.

  This can also cause irregular cycles, which is obviously very important to regulate when you are trying to conceive.

  The liver also has an important role in regulating glucose and insulin, which is really important for many [00:09:00] conditions like PCOS, which tend to have many, there's many different types of PCOS, but most of it, the majority tend to have a link with

  insulin resistance, so that is really important as well.

  Some things that people might feel when their liver is more sluggish is they will feel more sluggish and tired. They'll feel hormone fluctuations. they'll have more PMS, and they might even see some skin issues like acne where their body is trying to cleanse itself.

  They might also feel bloated and constipated, and sometimes even might have a little more sensitivity in their right upper quadrant, which is the right section, right under the ribs.

  Ultimately, you want your body to be free of toxins and you want the energy to flow in order to have an optimal menstruation for women and really have optimal fertility.

  So there are definitely things that you can do to help your liver.

  [00:10:00] One of the biggest things, as we mentioned before, is actually managing stress. So in Chinese medicine, we really don't see a difference between the body, the mind, and the spirit. And there are so many different aspects that come together to really create our health. And that is why our mind and how we feel and our emotions are just as intricate and just as important as really what we put into our bodies through food and how we move and our exercise and our sleep.

  So all of those things really matter when it comes to your overall health and ultimately your fertility health.

  So some ways you can manage stress is. talk to somebody when you have a lot going on. It's really important because we as humans are meant to connect with others and it actually feels good for us to connect with community. It's important, however, to find people that you feel safe with and not people that will make you feel worse [00:11:00] for feeling your feelings.

  So it's important to have a safe space to talk and maybe perhaps a community. There are many different communities out there when it comes to fertility health and you can also find psychotherapists that's specifically work in the fertility category. So they really understand the stressors that come specifically from being on the fertility journey. So those are really great to seek out and there are many people that are professionals in that category. I.

  Another thing that is super, super important, and it's something that I actually wanna do a whole other segment on, which is breath work. So through breath work, you can actually stimulate your vagus nerve and regulate your nervous system. So it's really, really important to learn how to breathe because through the breath, that is one of the easiest ways to truly communicate with the brain that you feel safe.

  Then when you create a feeling of safety, your body will automatically feel at ease and it can let [00:12:00] go, and you'll also feel like you're thinking more clearly because when your liver is able to ensure that free flow of Qi, your body overall feels so much better.

  Meditation. I am a huge fan, and that is something that I have been doing for many years and has completely changed my life, so I highly recommend getting into meditation. You can get into many different meditations, and one of the things if you're just getting started and you don't know much. Is something that I recommend often to my patients and my coaching clients is to look into, um, something called the Headspace series.

  Headspace is an app, a meditation app, and there's a series on Netflix, and most everybody has Netflix. And they go through many different types of meditations. They explain exactly the science behind it and what those types of meditations do, and then at the end of each segment, they will cover and kind of guide you through that particular meditation that they spoke about.

  And I highly recommend doing [00:13:00] that because then you can try out different forms of meditation. The two main forms are. Paying attention to your breath or repeating a mantra in your mind. And there are many specific mantras and a lot of 'em are seed mantras that you can find from Vedic traditions, which is ancient India.

  And those work really amazingly.

  And of course, acupuncture. I'm a huge fan. it changed my own life and it helped me so much and this is really what inspired me to do it myself and to go back to school for it. Acupuncture is amazing for relaxing, but it's also great for so many other things, but it also can help with moving that energy blockage.

  So through acupuncture it ensures more free flow. And one of the things that I noticed when I first started acupuncture was that I came in for my periods. They did regulate and then I realized, hey, I'm a little less stressed at work. I feel a little better if somebody says something that's challenging for me to hear.

  I felt better [00:14:00] and I was able to receive it better. So that was one of the things that I noticed, and it was probably because, and now I understand it better. My energy and my free flow of QI was much better since I was going to acupuncture. So that is something that I highly recommend. And then just to keep in mind, things like alcohol and caffeine do get filtered by the liver, so having too much caffeine and alcohol has contributed to higher incidences of inflammation and endometriosis, and also fibroids. So the reason being is because those are things that need to get filtered by the liver. If you're giving the liver more work to do and it's going to be taxing, then it is going to impact how it is able to do its job. You ultimately don't wanna give it more toxins to worry about. So it really is something that it needs to filter out. So one of the things that you could do if you suspect that you have a more sluggish liver, or you need to give it a little [00:15:00] more TLC, I would definitely either lower your intake of alcohol and caffeine, and ideally it would be best to eliminate it completely.

  Similarly, you wanna avoid processed food that have ingredients that you cannot pronounce, all of those chemicals. You also wanna avoid environmental toxins, plastics, really things that will also contribute to a heavier load on the liver. You also want to ensure that you're getting proper sleep.

  Not only is that going to help your nervous system, but it's also gonna regulate your body overall and your overall chi. It's also going to help the liver. So one of the things that the liver does, as I mentioned before in Chinese medicine, is it soars the blood. And I remember one of my teachers early on telling me.

  Well, teaching the class that when you lay down, if you're really, really feeling tired and you feel really stressed, just laying down makes it easier for the liver to [00:16:00] store the blood because obviously you're not standing and you're laying. and by doing that, you're actually supporting the liver.

  So even taking naps sometimes can really help.

  There are definitely foods that can help, and cruciferous vegetables are amazing and these are really important, especially if you have endometriosis or fibroids. they specifically are really beneficial for the liver, but they're also great in eliminating toxins from your colon as well.

  So cruciferous vegetables are broccoli, cauliflower, and brussel sprouts.

  Other things that you can consider are dark leafy greens. And I would suggest cooking them slightly, not overcooking them, but those are actually really beneficial. And it's beneficial to cook because it can help your spleen digest it better.

  Lemon water on an empty stomach, because in Chinese medicine, the taste.

  Let me see.

  Lemon water is amazing because also in Chinese medicine, the taste for and an Ayurveda, the taste for the liver is [00:17:00] sour. And sour tastes and bitter tastes also support detoxification of the liver, so bitter greens think about things like that that will also support the liver.

  so examples of that are dandelion and turmeric And as far as herbal supplements, you may have heard of milk thistle. Sometimes they'll have a combination tincture that you'll find in health food stores of milk thistle and dandelion. And one of the things that I also wanna mention is that if you are going through IVF and what I typically will suggest to a lot of my clients Is to work on your liver or maybe have a little time in between treatments if possible, so that you're able to assist and maybe take those herbs like milk thistle and dandelion root, and then also something called sulforaphane, which is made from cruciferous vegetables, and it can also detoxify and support the liver.

  It's important to give [00:18:00] yourself that extra support if you know that your livers already being bombarded with a lot of excess hormones, which happens with cycles. So it is nice to give yourself a little break afterwards where you're able to assist the body in flushing it out.

  And magnesium is also a very key mineral to help support the liver's function.

  so ultimately you gotta love your liver. I mean, it has an incredible, incredible role when it comes to your overall health and when it comes to your fertility health. So it's important not to bombard it and really kind of take it as a two step to support it with the right foods, to eliminate things out outside in your environment or even the things that you're eating to encourage a healthier, happier liver.

  So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from it. Thank you so much for tuning in [00:19:00] today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.[00:20:00] 

Ep 335 Rethinking Fertility: Longevity, Herbs & the Taoist Way with Jiaming Ju

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world’s largest longevity data projects to creating personalized Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care.

We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men’s health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle.

This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition.

Key Takeaways: 

• Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage.

• Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles.

• True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test.

• Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys.

• Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health.
  
  

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about KUN Health here
Follow Jiaming Ju in Instagram

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 335 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is jamming Jew Jamming is the owner of Kon Health. Alongside her father, jamming went from leading the world's largest data collection on senior adults from New York to Singapore to joining her father in his decades long mastery of traditional Chinese medicine, infusing Ming's expertise on aging data and economics.

  Together they help people live healthy lives and preserve Chinese heritage. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast Chiming. 

  Jiaming Ju: Thank you for having me. [00:01:00] 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like.

  That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners.

  Jiaming Ju: So I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. And. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. And then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to retrain for four years.

  It takes four years in California. And then that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a [00:02:00] lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. We don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health of the eggs and the uterine lining.

  So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've what you've seen. In practice.

  Jiaming Ju: Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that I work a lot in. And this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. And then that's when we work together.

  I also have a lot of patients who have repetitive miscarriage which is increasingly common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, and so I know that [00:03:00] we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs.

  I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.

  Jiaming Ju: Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. You 

  Michelle Oravitz: the acupuncture and the herbs and the,

  Jiaming Ju: treatment from the,

  herbal treatment. However, I think customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine.

  It takes a lot of family [00:04:00] lineage. You know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as 

  Jiaming Ju: no I don't. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, okay. 

  Jiaming Ju: We have all of you guys who are. 

  Michelle Oravitz: actually I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really focused on one aspect. 

  Jiaming Ju: Yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that.

  I usually say that [00:05:00] acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs.

  In terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. So this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have.

  A whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice has a lot more interest in the history, right?

  The history is being that. [00:06:00] We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of you know, fertility policies, aging population, right?

  How can you encourage, and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that.

  And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for [00:07:00] 3000 years.

  This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health and fertility.

  I. 

  Michelle Oravitz: For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine.

  I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine.[00:08:00] 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. But they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a month, and then you have to do this again.

  Right. it is very different perspective. I think many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health.

  I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you [00:09:00] know. it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming.

  And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice.

  Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression.

  Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for [00:10:00] the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve?

  Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? So Yeah. it's a different approach. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, completely. It's interesting you say about antidepressants because I feel like it's almost a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process.

  They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about [00:11:00] something that is actually crucial.

  If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that.

  It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby.

  You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together.

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? And then everyone is, and a [00:12:00] lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right?

  You do it and you'll get pregnant. The, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my patients and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For,

  fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are.

  Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF [00:13:00] technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs.

  IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? So I think there is a lot of a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage.

  I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, [00:14:00] what is the fundamental thing.

  It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often I and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy. 

  So this is very much so linked.

  It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems in the first two or three years there, basically.

  You know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg [00:15:00] diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues.

  So this is all interlinked. Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months.

  Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation. 

  Jiaming Ju: Mm-hmm. '

  Michelle Oravitz: cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months.

  You're gonna be in much better position.

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for [00:16:00] pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat healthy. All of those stuff, Right. And in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it.

  Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? And. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant.

  And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Jiaming Ju: You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I [00:17:00] don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I often I always ask about better the partner or whoever, is the sperm donor better?

  They have tested, oftentimes they have not. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, I agree. 

  Jiaming Ju: has done all the 

  work then, 

  Michelle Oravitz: I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know.

  through research I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like.

  20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then.

  So, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Correct. 

  Jiaming Ju: right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to [00:18:00] get checked. It takes no time at all. 

  Michelle Oravitz: I know.

  Jiaming Ju: So like how is it in this, like, you know.

  this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner 

  checked first. Um, it's It is interesting.

  Michelle Oravitz: It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with the embryos to grow.

  So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation.

  Jiaming Ju: It is always a little too late. And interestingly I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. The second one who was born in the [00:19:00] us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more.

  Like there is like, I think the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service throughout is very low compared to other countries. But I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms.

  Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then you 

  know, there 

  Michelle Oravitz: supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head. 

  Jiaming Ju: right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between Chinese medicine and western medicine.

  Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of [00:20:00] people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from.

  The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard.

  Chinese medicine clinics where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's it's a very different process. Yeah. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was in a completely different career and I all I could get from [00:21:00] every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get.

  Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology.

  He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody on like, what's going on in my body?

  Jiaming Ju: right. 

  Michelle Oravitz: And then so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my [00:22:00] period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in.

  Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing.

  Jiaming Ju: Right. The, the physical is mental and that is observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. And usually as both the, the mental improved physical improvement and vice versa.

  And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I [00:23:00] didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. It's, I think is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yep.

  Jiaming Ju: Isn't that weird? 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients especially and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue for A DHD patients is better.

  You have anemia. And often they do. But as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. [00:24:00] The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD.

  This is the reason why a lot of women who thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost 

  Michelle Oravitz: it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And then when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment.

  It was [00:25:00] for, I believe, for specific reason, Right.

  There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore C-section was so popular.

  It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. Like I need to have a child.

  Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we [00:26:00] probably wants too much.

  I don't know. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body.

  So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. And so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation.

  For people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically.

  Jiaming Ju: Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So [00:27:00] some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no,

  they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it.

  This is intense Stress. 

  Handling it, you know, 

  doesn't 

  Michelle Oravitz: first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect.

  Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's.

  Jiaming Ju: I think this is the hardest lesson in life. I feel. Is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. [00:28:00] And I think liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage.

  But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's resistance. It's resistance to life. 

  Jiaming Ju: frustration, right?

  You're like constantly frustrated. Someone else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. And I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health.

  [00:29:00] I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit?

  The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant.

  Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple [00:30:00] of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yep.

  Jiaming Ju: I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agnostic like process, right? Because You need a bit of luck For a person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients, 

  Michelle Oravitz: yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need.

  And that's that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see.

  Jiaming Ju: Right. And it is, you will see whenever that [00:31:00] happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility.

  And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. So this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate.

  And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to.

  But that is hard. I think 

  Michelle Oravitz: It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often [00:32:00] missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help.

  And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do.

  And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates.

  And so you see that often?

  Jiaming Ju: I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive [00:33:00] into uncertainty. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Jiaming Ju: You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else.

  They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them.

  It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that really starts even during pregnancy preparation. 

  Michelle Oravitz: You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life 

  Jiaming Ju: Right, 

  Michelle Oravitz: and you're not like, [00:34:00] you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away. 

  Jiaming Ju: right. you.

  can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance happen.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah.

  But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right?

  Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're [00:35:00] gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment.

  And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? So, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. [00:36:00] Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully.

  So. 

  Michelle Oravitz: And what other suggestions do you ever give people suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did.

  So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health.

  Jiaming Ju: We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient that I will hold 'em to it. That includes 

  nutrition and also lifestyle [00:37:00] tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six.

  Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre preparing for pregnancy, they should too. And I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. And there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe.

  Michelle Oravitz: That. That's my favorite, by the way. 

  Jiaming Ju: and I, you know, your New York [00:38:00] patients will be like, no. But like, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain.

  Jiaming Ju: So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. It's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to.

  So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite [00:39:00] thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge people's sense of fashion.

  So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great. 

  Michelle Oravitz: But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow 

  state. 

  Jiaming Ju: Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine, 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's true.

  Jiaming Ju: So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? [00:40:00] You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change.

  You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Pinning so much hope on this. So yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life.

  It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, it's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it. 

  Michelle Oravitz: 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to [00:41:00] look at like. How it interplays and works together as a whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm.

  Jiaming Ju: The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. So this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant when you become a parent.

  And I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more [00:42:00] seriously, but also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right.

  But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means.

  The implication at your health more seriously. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else.

  And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. So for people who want to work with you, what do you offer?[00:43:00] 

  Are there, 

  Jiaming Ju: I only, well, so if you are interested in Chinese medicine, you wanna know how much I can tell you just from your tongue reading 

  Michelle Oravitz: about this. I have to just, I'm opening my gate. Because I have a delivery. Okay, sorry. Okay, let's start that again. Camille 

  Jiaming Ju: I also probably need to go in five minutes. I have a patient in a bit, but I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets.

  So I think That's the number one thing you can do. And in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. And that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine.

  But usually the [00:44:00] serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we that I have written.

  For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that 

  includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack.

  For that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah,

  Michelle Oravitz: That's great. Sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs. 

  Jiaming Ju: no, I only do gran. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to [00:45:00] digest, easier 

  Jiaming Ju: right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it.

  is we, so it's everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single patient. So, 

  Michelle Oravitz: Fantastic. And how can people find you?

  Jiaming Ju: You can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok.

  I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, Instagram is my 

  Michelle Oravitz: It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram.

  Jiaming Ju: Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you [00:46:00] so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you. 

  Jiaming Ju: you. 

  Michelle Oravitz: Awesome.

  Yeah.