THE WHOLESOME FERTILITY PODCAST

Michelle Oravitz 2/17/26 Michelle Oravitz 2/17/26

Ep 374 The Truth About PCOS: Symptoms, Fertility Struggles, and Finding Real Support

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) affects millions of women worldwide, yet it remains one of the most misunderstood and frequently misdiagnosed hormonal conditions. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle is joined by Megan Stewart, Founder and Executive Director of the PCOS Awareness Association, to unpack why PCOS can look so different from person to person and why so many women struggle for years before receiving real answers.

Megan shares her powerful personal journey, from experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old to navigating years of medical dismissal, a PCOS diagnosis at sixteen, and later cervical cancer. Together, Michelle and Megan explore how PCOS impacts fertility, mental health, metabolism, and the nervous system, including insulin resistance, elevated testosterone, anxiety, depression, and cycle irregularity. This conversation also offers hope, highlighting supportive approaches such as acupuncture, lifestyle rhythm, nervous system regulation, and holistic care that can help restore balance and empower women to trust their bodies again.

Key Takeaways:

PCOS symptoms and why they vary so widely
Misdiagnosis and common PCOS myths
Hormones, insulin resistance, and fertility challenges
The overlooked mental health impact of PCOS
Acupuncture, holistic care, and nervous system support
Building community, advocacy, and real-world resources

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[00:00:00] Episode number 3 74 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're talking about a condition that so many women are quietly struggling with often for years before they ever get real answers, which is PCOS. My guest is Megan Stewart, the founder and executive director of PCOS Awareness Association, one of the leading organizations dedicated to PCOS education, advocacy, and support.
Megan's work is deeply personal. She started experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old, pelvic pain, missing cycles, weight gain, hair loss, unwanted hair growth. Mood changes and she and her mom were sent from provider to provider, dismissed, and even told that it was in her head. It wasn't until she was 16 that she finally got the PCOS diagnosis, and then [00:01:00] incredibly, she was also diagnosed with cervical cancer.
But what happened next is why this episode is so powerful. Years later, after an ER visit where she learned her ovarian cysts were rupturing and realized how little support and practical guidance existed, Megan decided she could not be the only one going through this. She began making teal PCOS awareness, bracelets by hand sharing symptoms and resources.
One conversation at a time. That small act of advocacy exploded into a worldwide movement and eventually became the PCOS Awareness Association. Today, she and her volunteer team are creating real resources for real symptoms, including mental health support, and they host PCOS con. Bringing community education and conversations, people have been afraid to say aloud into a safe space.
In this conversation, we break [00:02:00] down why PCOS can be so confusing and so commonly misdiagnosed. Why the name itself can be misleading, and how PCOS can look completely different from person to person. We talk about the hormone and metabolic pieces, including insulin resistance and testosterone patterns.
The mental health side that doesn't get enough attention and why it can impact fertility so profoundly. And we also talk about hope because there are supportive options. We explore the role of holistic care, including acupuncture. Lifestyle rhythm and nervous system support, and how creating safety in the body can be a game changer for cycle regulation and overall wellbeing.
So if you've ever felt dismissed, confused, or like your body was doing something, no one can explain. This episode is for you.
Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. [00:03:00] I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Megan.
Megan: Hi. Thank you for having me.
Michelle: Yes. I'm so excited. Um, we just had a little fun chat pre-talk about PCOS and before we get started, 'cause I'm really excited to get to this topic because of course it feels like a mystery. it's a hard. Type of syndrome to really pin down. I think that it could be so confusing for some people.
People get misdiagnosed often. So, before we do get started, I would love to get your origin story and how this is personal. It's personal, and it's also something that is a passion of yours. So would love to have you share that.
Megan: Absolutely. So, yes, it's origin story, it's a passion. I am a sufferer of PCOS myself. [00:04:00] So, it really came about now I will try and keep this as, you know, as simple as possible. It really came about because when I was nine, I started showing symptoms of PCOS, and at the time we had no idea what it was.
And if it wasn't for my mother, I probably, I don't. Like you'll learn. I don't know where I would be today if it wasn't for my mother, because she literally took me from, I just remember, you know, it's time for another appointment, Megan. It's time for another appointment. Let's go figure out what's wrong.
And some of my symptoms that I was having were. Pelvic pain was the, the huge one. Pelvic pain? no menstrual cycle. Weight gain hair loss on my head, but hair growth on my face. And arms. I just was super moody all the time. To this day, my mother will say, you owe me. And I'm like, what do I owe you for?
'cause you were just so mean. Oh. Oh, okay. So, yeah, was absolutely just. Confused [00:05:00] on what was going on with my body. I was confused. My mother was confused. So I just remember her taking me from, you know, doctor to doctor to also, you know, homeopathic specialist and just all over the place. Trying to figure out what was going on and she was told of various of things such as this is normal because she's young and, you know, puberty.
This is just something that she's just going to have to do, deal with. Was also told that I just needed to lose the weight and I would be fine. But the problem was, was like, how, how does she lose the weight? Because she's super active. I am an equestrian. I did basketball, I did volleyball, I did a little soccer here and there.
You know, I was just super active and nothing was. Keeping the weight off. I was literally like throwing on pounds if I smelled a cookie from a mile away. Right. It was just ridiculous. And then the ultimate one that she was told, that [00:06:00] she just felt completely off about was that she was told by a medical professional that it was in my head and I was.
Faking the symptoms to get out of, to get out of school and practice and all the things. And she recently actually told me that she put me on a placebo pill just to test that theory, only for it to realize about two weeks later that no, it's not this is not in this pork child's head. This is something is wrong.
Michelle: yeah.
Megan: So again, from ages nine to 16, I was just, you know, trying to figure out what was going on with me. And I just remember also feeling that. I was lost because me personally, I was lost because it was like nobody is understanding me. Nobody is, is, is like really telling me what is wrong. And, and on top of that I'm gonna date myself here, but you know, I come from the time of 17 Magazine y magazine.
Z, all those [00:07:00] different things that were like, oh, this is what you're supposed to look like. You're supposed to be cute and little. And I wasn't. So it was just like, no, I. You know, self my, my self body image was not a good one. So I finally remember, I can't remember exactly, how we ended up at another O-B-G-Y-N, and she immediately looked at me and said, I'm gonna run some tests.
Those tests came back and she was like, oh, you've never been told you have PCOS. I kind of figured you, you have PCOS. And it was kind of like. No. Like, what, what is this? And you know, polycystic ovarian syndrome was what she said to to us. And she was like, you really nothing you have to worry about until you're ready to have children come back to me when you are trying to get pregnant.
again, 16, I was like, Ew, I don't want nothing to do with no boys. I'm okay. I'm okay. So, but ultimately, as well. Another diagnosis came along with the [00:08:00] PCOS diagnosis is I was diagnosed at 16 with cervical cancer. So there is there are studies out there that say like there's a correlation between PCOS and cervical cancer along with Rine cancer.
Ovarian cancer, breast cancer. there are just a lot of studies out there that correlate the, the, the mix of them together. So, of course, you know. She says, you know, come back to me when you're ready to have children. I wasn't thinking about that. And the diagnosis of cervical cancer was immediate on the mind.
So it didn't come about until maybe about 21, 22 when I didn't have health insurance and I was working at a job. I remember just feeling so sick one day and I remember going into the office and everybody sitting at my desk and everybody looking at me and they're like. What's going on with you? Like you, I'm a black woman, so all the color had drained out of my face.
I just felt clammy. I felt [00:09:00] like sticky just not well. And I called, called my mom again. Mommy called my mom and was like, Hey, something's up. I need to go. She was like. Meet me at the er, met her at the er and they looked through my, my, my charts and everything and they said, oh, you have PCOS. Yeah, well it kind of looks like we're gonna do some other tests, but we're gonna do an ultrasound and everything.
Came back with that and it looks like your cysts on your ovaries are rupturing. What, like nobody said anything about, you know, this is what's gonna happen and here's how to handle that. It was literally just come back to me when you're ready to have children. So, Walking out of the er, it was very much, my mom was like, oh no, what's about to happen?
You, I see it in your face, what's going on? And I said, no, I cannot be the only person that's going through this. I [00:10:00] cannot be the only person that's going through this. And there has to be information and resources out there. I go and you know, at the time I think it was Craigslist was pretty much the only like social media that was out there.
And Craigslist has this part that, you know, you can talk to people.
Michelle: You look too young to know this. I'll have to, I have to say,
Megan: Girl, I'm 40. I'll be 42 this year,
Michelle: you look a lot younger, just in my eyes, so.
Megan: I appreciate it. But, but yeah, it was they have like this it's almost like Reddit. You can post like to the message board and you can respond to things in, in Craigslist. I remember going out there and I just searched PCOS. I'm from Seattle, so I searched in the, Craigslist for Seattle and there was maybe four or five people within there that was like, Hey you know, have you heard of this thing called PCOS?
I have it, and, and I don't know what's going on with me. Does anybody have any advice? So with that. It was like, [00:11:00] okay, I'm not the only one, and people are actually out here looking for things. So what, what's out here? What's giving information? So then it was a Google search of like, what's PCOS?
At the time there was maybe one, there was one large organization and couple years later there was another large organization out there that had to do with PCOS. But when looking at the information, it was very much just. The medical professionals didn't know. It was very much like, oh, well here's what's out there currently, but we still don't know, like we don't know.
And then on top
of the birth control pill.
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get me started on that one. But,
Michelle: Yeah.
Megan: but yes, and it was very much like there was no resources, actual resources out there for PCOS and it was confusing to me. All of the things was just very, very confusing. So, after a couple of years and people, you know, family and friends asking me very close with, you know, my [00:12:00] family.
And after er visit, of course, everybody's now calling like, Hey, what happened? What's going on? Are you okay? And I was like, okay, well, PCOS, well what's that? Okay. So now I have to devise a way for, to, to share this information with my family and friends. So I came up with this idea of creating, I had found out the official color was teal.
I started creating like handmade teal bracelets and handing it out to family and friends along with telling them like. PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And then here's like some symptoms. And here's this here that like, I was literally like the resource of like, here, here, here. Take this, here, take this information.
And now if you wear this, you are now going to be able to tell people who ask you about like, what's, what's the steel bracelet you're wearing That's amazing. You were raising awareness right after like that's.
know. So, it was around the time that Instagram started and what was it? Wonder [00:13:00] Woman, the movie Wonder Woman was coming out and she had that infamous pose of like, you know, I'm Wonder Woman type thing.
I had a cousin who actually asked me for like. I think she had ordered maybe 20 of those handmade teal bracelets from me. And then she went on Instagram and did the Wonder Woman pose in those bracelets tagged me and hashtagged PCOS. I could not like. I think I woke up maybe two days later to my phone just being bombarded with messages on Instagram asking me, Hey, I have PCOS too.
Where do I get a bracelet? I've never seen anything like this. What can I do? I need more information. It was just from all over the world. I had people New Zealand. It, it was just insane to me that people were reaching out and I. Didn't have, like, I was like, oh, what, what do I do now? So I literally started my own little, like assembly line of friends and family of like putting [00:14:00] these bracelets together, getting shipping addresses, mailing them out.
And at the time I had no idea that shipping to like. India and, and New Zealand and, and Britain and all those places was actually going to cost me more
Michelle: The than, than the actual, you know, putting the things together. It was insane. But I came up with this idea of like, okay, I'll sell this to you for like $5 and if you send me the $5 and I send you the bracelet, I'm gonna use the $5 to get a 5 0 1 C3.
Megan: To start PCOS Awareness Association and here we are what the right, like what, 14 years later. And I am so proud of my team and where we started to where we are today and all the different resources and that's the number one thing that we try and do. It's not just about the information. I literally have sat down with the team and we're like, oh, okay.
A symptom is mental [00:15:00] health, right? It's depression and anxiety. So where can we help in that area? What kind of resources can we provide to help in that area? We've teamed up with Crisis Text Line. You text PCOS to 7 7 4 1 7 4 1, and you now have a resource, for, you know, your mental health with PCOS the hair growth on the face, the hrsm which is hair growth on the face. And some people also have it back, chest, you know, all over their body. The extra hair growth. We've teamed up with Milan, laser hair removal to offer their services. We've, we've just, for every symptom we have tried to provide an actual resource, whether it's, you know, one resource that we've teamed up with, or a slew of resources that we've also teamed up with.
Um, so. Yeah, I'm pretty excited and I'm pretty I'm proud of the team.
Michelle: I bet, I mean, that's a, that's a huge undertaking and it's a huge it, it has such a huge impact on so many people. It's a great resource because [00:16:00] I feel like so many, specifically with PCOS, so many people are so confused. There's a lot of misdiagnosed people. with very. Doctors like that are professional and and so it, it could be a very confusing type of syndrome because it looks so different on every person.
So, to break that down, I'd love to talk about that really like, to describe to people listening who you know, of course this is a fertility podcast, but it really impacts fertility health because it impacts the menstrual cycle. And we talked about this in the pre-chat. I think that I had undiagnosed PCOS, I had my hair fell out.
Thank god it grew back, but it really fell out to the point where it was really, it scared me.
It scared my dad and they was like, oh, what's going on? Like, you used to have a full head of hair and, and all of a sudden it started thinning on the top. I had chin hairs. I had like bouts of acne at different [00:17:00] times.
It, it came and went irregular cycles. So, I mean, looking back. My circadian rhythm was off. That's another thing that since I've been doing this, learning about how it not only impacts your menstrual cycle, it impacts your ability to lose weight. It's very hard to like get it off. But sometimes people could be on the thinner side too, so that's where it could be so confusing.
And then also, you know, it impacts depression. Like I used to have depression in, my teenage years. And, and when you were talking about how you felt or the moodiness, it's almost like, I mean. It's not your fault, it's like a physical thing that you're going through, and you could be looked at like, why are you like that?
But that's something that you're, you are just not feeling right in your body, in your mind. So I'd love for you as, as you know, as much as you can kind of compact it. And describe to people what is PCOS and [00:18:00] how it can impact or ref, I guess, express itself in different people.
Megan: Yeah, absolutely. 100% of everything you said. And yes, this is a fertility podcast and that's. Why I'm here,
Michelle: Yeah.
Megan: because PCOS is the number one cause of fertility, infertility in women. You know, so normally that's normally how women are diagnosed with PCOS when they are trying to get pregnant and they're having problems.
You can go to a, you know, your medical professional ob, GYN, endocrinologists. I've even heard of people who are going to like dermatologists. 'cause as you said, the acne portion. I've even heard of mental health therapists that they're not diagnosing, but they're suggesting that. Some, some something's up here, you may wanna see somebody.
So ultimately, you know, you, you're having troubles getting pregnant and they're running panels and they're realizing like you have PCOS. So some of the symptoms and the crazy thing about [00:19:00] PCOS is because it's a syndrome, is that they are literally finding new. New symptoms all the time. There was one that recently came up, well, not recently, it's been a couple of years now, but it made perfect sense to me because I, at the time was struggling with it.
And that's tooth decay. I,
Michelle: Hmm.
Megan: let me tell you, I am, you know, twice, twice a year dentist brush, you know, all the things, do all the things I need to do to make sure I'm taking care of my, my mouth health. And it's felt like. Within a month. I was like at the dentist like 12 times. It was nuts. They were like, oh, you know, you have, we're gonna have to do a crown.
We're gonna have to do a root canal. It was
Michelle: And all of that impacts fertility as well, kind of even on its own.
Megan: right. Yeah. So it was. Right. So yes, they are definitely finding new symptoms all the time, but some of the symptoms, other symptoms of definitely infertility, [00:20:00] weight gain, hair growth on your face, so let's, let's put it this way instead. PCOS also causes higher testosterone in women that have PCOS.
So if you're thinking about higher testosterone and you're thinking about men, they're going to get hair growth on face, neck, back, you know, arms, all the things, but then they start losing it on their head. Male pattern
Michelle: where we want it.
Megan: Right. Well, exactly. Our crowns, we, we want it there. So, think of it the same way for women with PCOS.
You are going to get hair growth on the face and neck, chest, back, arms, all the places you don't want it, and then you're gonna lose it on your head. So herm, that's the hair growth is a symptom. Depression, anxiety. I can't even tell you how, like my watch, I have a, what is this? The Garmin watch.
And I kid you not every day, it's like, oh, stressful period. Stressful period. And I'm like, stop telling me. That's even more stressful. Like [00:21:00] my, my anxiety level can go from zero to a hundred. My poor boyfriend, like, I feel bad for him because I literally, he can tell, I'll, I'll sit there and I'll be quiet and he's like, what's going on?
What's happening? And I'm like. I wish you couldn't tell this in me, but, but yes. Anxiety is high depression, and I feel like that's also a vicious cycle, right? You get high anxiety, you get depressed, you get depressed, you get high anxiety. You are just going in a vicious circle. The acne. I can't even tell you how many times as an adult, I'm like, where did this patch of acne come from?
Like, why, why is this even happening? I, I also have a lot of women have cystic acne because of their PCOS. Tooth decay is another one. We have what's called, and, and that also comes with the insulin resistance, right? And that's kind of like where the weight gain comes from as well. And that is the reason why they also give women with PCOS Metformin, which is a diabetic medication.
[00:22:00] I hate that. I hate it. I'm like, I do not have diabetes.
Michelle: Tel Works very similar to that, and it's more natural and it also has added benefit of improving equality.
Megan: absolutely my own acetol. What's another progesterone? They try and give you birth control pills? I've definitely noticed that in the last maybe 20 years. It's like, as soon as you turn 15, 16, here, take these birth control pills, they'll make your life better. No.
Michelle: I was giving them too. Same.
Megan: Right. Right. I feel like that's, that's, that's like the norm now.
What are some other symptoms? So, I do wanna preface that. The name polycystic ovarian syndrome is deceiving. And I have, you know, there is chatter that they are trying to change the name. Because you can have cysts on your ovaries or like me, at any given time, your cyst could be ruptured and not there.
So,
Michelle: And it's not really cysts, it's follicles, which could be confusing [00:23:00] 'cause people are gonna think it's a bunch of cysts. But it's actually follicles that are not fully grown. So multiple ones will go and then they'll stop, and then it's just gonna continue. And, but nothing's really, so people go through IVF and they'll have so many eggs retrieved and they're like, oh wow.
40 eggs. And, and then nothing. Nothing. Nothing turns into an embryo or like very, very few, if any.
Megan: Right. Absolutely. So it's, I, I like to think or say, or it is that PCOS is an endocrine hormonal disorder, right? It's, it's going to affect you from head to toe, literally from head to toe.
Michelle: Yeah.
Megan: So, thinking about it that way, your symptoms. Let's say you, you had, you were formally diagnosed with PCOS.
Your PCOS is going to look very different from my PCOS, and that's why it's such a struggle for medical professionals for us living with PCOS. I did a podcast recently [00:24:00] and the gal had asked me like, what do I want to see like in the future for PCOS? That, that is one of the things I wanna see. I want to see that people are correctly diagnosed, whether it's people being diagnosed and they actually have PCOS or we're also getting the other, the reverse, right?
We're getting people that are being diagnosed with PCOS and it's not PCOS. So I want to see that correction because that's not helpful. That's not helpful for those that, you know, for anybody in that, that aspect.
Michelle: No, a hundred percent. And it's yeah, that's one of the biggest things that is so confusing for so many people. And people may not realize, they think, oh, well I have a regular period. I can't possibly have PCOS. And that's another big myth. I mean, there's so many myths connected to this diagnosis.
Megan: absolutely. 100%. And it's, it's a struggle because PCOS can also look like what's it, [00:25:00] Hashimoto's? Fatty liver diabetes I've heard there's a couple of others that I've heard as well that it can mimic. So yeah, getting that proper diagnosis is going to help in the future, right?
Like if I get the proper diagnosis, that means now we have, we can have a path going forward.
Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent. And and have you heard about the circadian rhythm connection with
Megan: I have, I have. So, I, I myself have not got dived into that. But I have heard it. We had a partner was it last year? I think it was last year during our PCOS con event. That, that, yes, they definitely spoke about that.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty wild because with Chinese medicine, how we, we perceive it, and we were talking about this too, about acupuncture. One of the things about PCOS, I'm just gonna kind of throw it out there 'cause it sounds so like, oh my gosh, like, what do I do? But there are a lot of really amazing things that can be [00:26:00] done.
For me personally, and you talked about this too, acupuncture was what really shifted for me. Now, I'm assuming I did have it, but looking back, I had two out of three that I know for sure. I didn't do the ultrasound, so I probably did have it. And I had irregular periods for going on 12 years at the time,
Megan: Yeah.
Michelle: and acupuncture was the one with.
Solution that literally shifted everything for me, acupuncture and herbs. And I also started meditating, so I feel like a lot of those things really impacted it. I wanna throw that out there because.
Megan: Absolutely.
Michelle: seems it could be very depressing, just like being like, oh my God, what do I do? You know, what can I do?
But there are things that you can do, and it is actually something that I found. Now, of course, every person's different, so I'm gonna kind of mention that. So not everybody's gonna respond to the same things, the same, but diet, exercise, supplements, acupuncture. There are a lot of things [00:27:00] that can be done.
That can be very, very supportive. And I know for myself doing the acupuncture, like I, it completely regulated me and I, it was no turning back, like completely, completely regulated me. And I also felt a shift in my emotions and my anxiety and my, you know, I'll have a tendency if I'm really drained and a lot going on. That's probably kind of my default.
Um, it'll kind of go right there, but I You could learn to manage it.
Megan: Absolutely, absolutely. As we were kind of chatting before, same it was about 10 years ago, I did, I found a woman's health acupuncturist and I went to her for maybe, maybe six months. And the way that my, I, I have really never had a normal cycle, right? I actually, when I was diagnosed with PCOS, I still hadn't had my first.
Cycle. So they had put me on progesterone and I had, my very first cycle lasted three months. It [00:28:00] was nuts
Michelle: no.
Megan: was heavy every day. It was horrible. And so, after that I still wasn't even, even on birth control pills. They had put me on birth control pills. And even then, I still was not regular. I could go maybe a month, have it two months, nothing a month have it.
It was just, it was nuts. So, I had cervical cancer again, and after that I was like, I'm al I'm always having like these revelations, right? And it's like, no, I am not doing. Medications anymore. I'm not doing it. Like it's not helping, so I'm gonna try something else. And I went completely natural, found a woman's health acupuncturist.
I did get you know, she, she mixed herbs and stuff for me as well to drink in hot water and that kind of things. But it was the acupuncture that I could really stick to. And again, I went for about six months and since then. I like, like clockwork. I could tell you exact the exact date when my cycle [00:29:00] is supposed to start.
And it starts by itself. I came off of birth control pills. It does, it does what it needs to do now.
Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it amazing? And it I I kind of liken it, like I, I like to compare it to almost and this is kind of like the whole idea of the clock we were talking about, the circadian rhythm. It's a pulse. It's one of our pulses now. We have many different pulses. All of life has pulse.
Everything kind of goes back and forth. We have waves. That's how the whole universe functions. It has cycles, and so there are some smaller cycles, some larger cycles. The 24 hour cycle is our circadian cycle, so if the hand of the second, the second hand doesn't work, it's gonna impact the hour hand.
Megan: Okay. Yep,
Michelle: So it's kind of like everything impacts everything.
So that's where it really made sense to me that for me personally, my circadian rhythm was off. Not everybody, but like some people, they have that correlation [00:30:00] and mine was completely, completely off. I could not wake up, like it was very hard for me to wake up. I had to for school, but I could sleep till two, three
Megan: Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, that's me. I could
Michelle: yeah,
Megan: day. Anywhere. Anywhere. Like I could probably pull up on this table and just.
Michelle: Yeah. But now luckily I've shifted that over time. It just kind of forced myself to shift it and one of the ways to shift it. And it takes a little time, especially if you've been like that for a very long time. It took me years to shift it. I still am not like a super morning person like. So I'm just gonna kind of throw that out there. But the sun, the light, light impacts us. So getting that early morning sun anchoring our body, pretty much what it does is it gives our body a message, Hey, it's morning. It's daytime, you should be awake. So getting that sunlight, having your eyes perceive the sun, not look directly, but to get that sunlight wakes up your body.
[00:31:00] And then similarly, at night, dimming the lights a couple of hours before, kind of like really trying to make your inner house environment similar to outside what's outside, which is darkness. At certain times. So going with that, also eating with a cycle, not like, intermittent fasting where you're like stopping in the, like not having breakfast 'cause that's gonna cause more cortisol.
But finishing notorious,
as the sun goes down, like having a couple, a good couple of hours. So fasting at night and going with that rhythm. So this is all kind of like. Based on Ayurvedic principles, Chinese medicine, really honoring the cycles of nature because the cycles of nature will, they're so strong, the force is so strong, it'll kind of bring our bodies back into that regulation.
So it's kind of a regulatory thing. It's kind of like a rhythm thing too. I mean, there's many other things obviously that impact it, but a big part of it is kind of like our bodies and training with [00:32:00] the rhythm of nature. So it's kind of like, like a train on tracks. It just veered off the tracks. We need to kind of bring it back.
And so that was kind of what happened with me, and it was as soon as I got the acupuncture and I started to do a couple of other things, it brought me back on track. And then it was kind of like, it just kept repeating. Similar to what you were saying.
Megan: nice. And I know that you said you do, you do meditation as well. I got a question for you on that
Michelle: of course.
Megan: because I, you know, it's hard, it is hard to meditate because you brain is like, go on a 20 million miles per hour. What I found myself when I was getting into meditation and whatnot is a singing bowl.
you use singing
Michelle: Oh yeah, so I used that actually in the beginning of every session with my acupuncture. Like every time I get the needles in with my patients. I put I put a bowl. Like I, I sound a bowl and I put it around their bodies so that they can get immersed in the sound. And not only [00:33:00] that, they have a bunch of antennas in their bodies with these like metal, like
Megan: right. You
get the little, the little zappy
Michelle: into their points.
So, so that vibration really goes directly into those
Megan: Right. I like it.
Okay. Okay. I was writing it then because
Michelle: But it is, yes. You're on to something. The sound really calms your nervous system. And as a matter of fact we have our own sound, which is our voice, and this is why humming activates the vagus nerve, which puts us in a more rest and digest state, which people with PCOS need more of that.
It helps also with digestion. There's a link with gut health and PCOS and so, so, humming. Mantras, you know, all the things that the ancients knew for thousands of years. They used to hum. They used to m and there's specific seed mantras that you can sound in your, in your, you know, in your voice with your mouth closed sometimes or [00:34:00] humming like so That vibration that you feel impacts your vagus nerve, shifts your nervous system from a survival to a more creative.
Megan: that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense to me. Now I'm So, so tell me, tell me about the Sound Bowl.
Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I, I got a big one
Michelle: That's awesome.
Megan: and Right. I often feel in my chest the most. And yes, like you're saying that it makes perfect sense about the humming because if I don't use, like, if I'm nowhere near the bowl I will.
Find a rhythm within myself, like a, a tune within myself and I will sing it or hum it to myself. So that makes perfect
Michelle: Intuitively. See,
look at that. Without even realizing that that's what I'm doing. So that makes so much sense. Thank you for that insight.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, first of all, I, it's just a reflection that [00:35:00] you are more intuitive than you realized,
Megan: Great.
Michelle: you know? And I think that that's what it is. I think that a big part of this whole thing is, is to trust ourselves. And I think we put and I'm sure you can relate to this, and I'm sure you see this a lot.
We put so much of our. Trust outside of us, especially when we're going through this, which can sometimes, especially if like the medical community doesn't really understand it and they, they say they don't really understand it. And we're putting all our trust in in that. And part of how we're made up is that we have this in innate intelligence within our bodies that communicates with
Megan: Yeah. Oh yeah. To protect yourself. So yes, that's the number one thing that I definitely tell people is that you need to trust those feelings. If you're feeling like you are not being heard by your medical profession, professional, go get another one.
Michelle: absolutely.
Megan: get another one.
Michelle: Yeah, and it's a game changer.
It could change [00:36:00] everything.
Megan: Yeah. Again, if my mother had not trusted herself in knowing. Me. I don't know where I would be today. Like, I
Michelle: I love your mom. Like everything that you're telling me, she sounds like such an amazing mother.
Megan: She is, she is. And in that so she was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, and she actually is, she looks at me and she says, oh, well, you know, you were, you're such a voice for the PCOS community. I now want to donate myself. As in like, I want to be a part of Alzheimer's or dementia studies.
Because I feel like you, you did that and now I need to do it. So she has definitely, yeah. She's, she's so
Michelle: so you've inspired her. Look at that. That's incredible.
Megan: right. We, we played off of each other, so she helped me. Now it's time for me to help her.
Michelle: Aw, that's so sweet. And you know, I'm really hoping, Megan, that for both PCOS and you know, Alzheimer's dementia, that [00:37:00] we're gonna move in a direction that's more innovative and. I really am. And I feel like, I think people are really kind of going back to the basics and learning a lot now, and the information that we never really used to have, like the podcast and is coming out, there's a lot of information on really coming back to the basics.
Nutrition, certain supplements, certain medications. So I feel like we're kind of in a place, I think collectively that we are moving to more solutions than Yeah, I, I feel it too. And when I like was first starting with P-C-O-S-A-A, like, it drove me nuts when every time I would go look for, labs and everything that are studying PCOS. The main thing that they were studying was like the weight loss and the fertility portion. And I'm like, how can you study that without even knowing what it is?
Megan: Like nobody knows what it is
and where it came
Michelle: [00:38:00] body, like specific constitution. 'cause not every Constitution would do well with that.
Megan: Correct. So I actually ended up finding one lab in the US that is studying like the origins of, and what is PCOS. And we've partnered with them and it's Lugen Labs out of Cornell University. Dr. Lugen is absolutely amazing and so her studies, I can't
remember
Michelle: get her on the podcast.
Megan: Yeah, you should. She's absolutely ama amazing. I love her. Doc, she, she literally, I can't remember when she first started like her studies, but they are now. At the point of where it's providing information. 'cause you know, when you start a study, you, you need like five years,
Michelle: Yep. To collect data. It was just data
Megan: data. Right. So she's now at the point where she is getting, getting the data and getting the results and compounding it into actual viable resources and
Michelle: that's incredible.
Megan: [00:39:00] Yeah, I can definitely connect you with
Michelle: Yeah, that would be great. 'cause I think that so many people would benefit from getting that information.
Megan: Yeah, she she, she has, you know, resource assistance out of the college that sometimes attend our PCOS CON event, our yearly annual PCOS con event, and they give report outs. During that event, the last time we heard from her a report out was not 2025, but 2024. So I'm sure she's got more, more to share.
She normally does a, a tag up a quarterly tag up meeting with my board to let them know of any findings that she's, they've found or, or how they can help support the PCOS community and what we can do. You know, it's a, it's a it's a, it know, a partnership.
Michelle: I, I just love what you're doing. I just think that what you're doing is so powerful. Like it's crazy how, you know, people go through things all the time, but what makes a person like realize or act upon that problem that [00:40:00] many people are facing and saying, Hey, you know, people need to know more about this, and kind of the choice that you made.
To create this incredible community and resource for so many people. I think that's a big deal. Like not everybody would act on doing something like that. And then in turn, you're not only influencing so many people, you've influenced your mom. It's incredible.
Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that. Because it's, it's rough.
Michelle: I'm sure
Megan: It could be, it could, yeah. It's a lot of work. I you know, the nonprofit, we are all, when I talk about the board and everybody on it, we're all volunteers, including myself. None of us are taking any paychecks or anything like that. We all have day jobs.
We all have lives that we lead outside of it. And I think that's the number one thing that I hope that people like when, when they are looking at starting things, please, please do, but at the same time do know [00:41:00] it is hard work and that you really do have to need to have a passion for it. And I. Strongly feel for personal.
My personal, like this is my legacy. This is what I was put on this earth to do,
Michelle: That's amazing. It, it's incredible because I feel like you know, with all that work, you are moving the needle.
Megan: thank you.
Michelle: Just people listening right now to realize, oh, there's something that can be done. There's resources, and I can find out more information. I think just kind of demystifying that, just the demystification aspect without even the resources is huge.
Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Michelle: Yeah, I think it's amazing. So for people listening, if they wanna learn more and they want to like maybe go to your events eventually, or you
know, Yeah, How can they find you? Where do they start?
Megan: Yeah. So we do have a website and it's www.pcosaa.org. We have a website [00:42:00] separate from that, that is our, for our PCOS con. So, in 2019, I brought, I know my board hates me sometimes because sometimes I'll, like, I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like, Ooh.
Michelle: That's a download. That's what that is. That's the PCOS. Angels talking to you. Be like we need you for something else.
Megan: Right. So in 2019, I, I went to the beginning of 2019. I went to the board and I was like, so I wanna put on something called the PCOS con and I wanna do it this year.
Michelle: Wow.
Megan: were like, you're nuts. But we did it. We put on PCOS con and it was supposed to be every year, but then of course 2020, our lovely pandemic hit and we had to you know, we had to. Go a different direction. We went virtual, so in 20 20, 20 21, and then 2022 we were virtual. So we have decided going forward, we are even years, we are virtual, odd years we are in person. So in 2025 we [00:43:00] did New York we did New York and LA in 2025. And in 2023 we did New York. LA and Texas. So we are, we're trying to like, you know, travel and bring it to people and make sure that we are, you know, get, getting all sorts of people to be able to come into the actual event.
So for PCs Con, we do have a separate website for that, and it's just PCs con.org that you can find that we are on all social media, including, let's see, Facebook. TikTok Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn. Somebody was telling me that I need to do Reddit, but I really don't even know.
Michelle: I know there's so
Megan: Look, look people old,
Michelle: I know day something new comes up and I'm like, what? What is
Megan: right?
Michelle: And then I have to learn this new thing.
Megan: No, I, the team does it. Like they, they all said, oh, we need TikTok. And I was like, I sure hope you guys don't think that I'm gonna be on TikTok doing these little dances and, and out here. 'cause [00:44:00] I, 'cause I'm not
Michelle: yeah,
Megan: like, I'm even, I'll be very honest with you. I hate being on video. So, which is, which goes back to kind of like what you were saying is, you know, even our own voices, bring, bring kind of a balance. I, I, I don't, I mm-hmm. I don't like being on video because I do not like listening to myself after the fact. So that was an interesting pull from what you said as well. So,
Michelle: No, but if you, if you have the voice just without hearing yourself back,
Megan: Right, right. If it's internal, it's my internal voice. It's we had a call last night and they were talking about naming, naming your PCOS, and I was like. Is this something that I can ask chat, GBT to name for me? Like I can put a name to my own PCOS and so then that, that'll be the voice that I hear within my head is that name.
Michelle: That's awesome.
Megan: But, but yeah, so you can find us on all, all the different social media. We would absolutely love to have, you know, your listeners be a part during PCOS con. One of the [00:45:00] things we like to do is we like to have different. Sections, different topics that we talk about. Fertility is definitely a topic that we talk about.
One of the other larger things that can go along with fertility right, is the taboo topics. So we have a section of PCOS con where the first year we did it, we literally came down from, it was at a hotel, so we all came down in our PJ's and we had like, beanbag chairs, popcorn in the middle of the night.
And we discussed those taboo topics. That have to do with PCOS, sex, fertility just those things that people don't, don't feel comfortable, you know, voicing out loud. We made a very comfortable space to be able to talk about that, those types of things.
Michelle: Amazing. Well, Megan, it was such a pleasure meeting you. I think what you're doing is incredible and and say hi to your mom for me
Megan: I will.
Michelle: because she's, she sounds amazing. She sounds like a gift. And really wishing you and her and your organization the best.
Megan: Thank you so much. Thank you for [00:46:00] having me.

Michelle Oravitz 2/10/26 Michelle Oravitz 2/10/26

Ep 373 Beyond the Physical: Taoist Alchemy and the Intelligence of the Body

What if healing doesn’t begin with fixing the body, but with releasing the labels placed upon it? In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle sits down with San Qing to explore how consciousness, energy, and stillness shape true healing. This conversation invites you to look beyond diagnosis, symptoms, and timelines, and reconnect with the deeper intelligence that allows the body and spirit to reorganise, heal, and thrive.

In this expansive and deeply illuminating episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle is joined by San Qing, a Daoist priest, teacher of internal alchemy, and lifelong explorer of consciousness, healing, and human potential.

San shares his extraordinary origin story, including a near-death experience as a child, spontaneous clairvoyant and healing abilities, and his eventual ordination in Daoist lineages in China. Together, Michelle and San dive into the nature of reality, the illusion of identification with the material world, and how true healing occurs when we access the stillness beneath thought, diagnosis, and fear.

This conversation bridges ancient Daoist wisdom with modern conversations around quantum healing, consciousness, and fertility. It explores how attachment to labels, timelines, and medical predictions can keep the body stuck, and how returning to the “void,” the place of non-identity and stillness, allows the body and spirit to reorganise into harmony.

This episode is a powerful invitation to remember that healing is not something we force, but something we allow when we reconnect with our deeper intelligence.

Key Takeaways:

Healing begins beyond the physical body, in consciousness and energy
Identifying too strongly with diagnoses can limit what the body is capable of
Stillness and non-attachment create space for transformation
The body must be able to hold the energetic charge of healing
Ancient Daoist teachings offer a roadmap for embodied, sustainable healing

Connect with San Qing:

Website: https://immortaltaoistrites.com/

The Way 126 App (Web, iOS & Android): https://theway126.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiY-8SXc5g7oJRlA02tQluw

Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/theway_126

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: Welcome to the podcast ing.
San: So, so grateful to be here. Thank you, Michelle. It's, um, it's an incredible honor to be on your podcast and we, we hold a dear friend, a mutual friend, family to me, and it's, you know, it's, it's great to have a community that, you know, observes the blatantly obvious That seems to be a distortion for most people, which is
Michelle: Yes, I know we're gonna have an incredible conversation. I'm actually, I really was looking forward to this. Um, our mutual friend, uh, Julie Ryan is an incredible, intuitive, and, um, she's just like a master in her own world, um, and in our world, she's just an incredible human being. I know that, um, well, she's already diagnosed me and said very specific things, so she's really on it.
So I knew that when she [00:01:00] mentioned you, there was definitely a reason we needed to meet. And then I'm reading about you and I'm just so excited to dive in because, um, pretty much everything that I'm reading is right up my alley. Um, I love the whole consciousness conversation. I love the mysticism. Um, which it's funny how we call it mysticism, but it's actually reality, but it seems to be kind of hidden.
So we're gonna really unpack a lot of that. Um, before we do get started, I would love for you to share your origin story. I always like to get started with that so people can get to know you.
San: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we can do a little bit of an abbreviated thing. Uh, I know we've only got one lifetime
Michelle: It's always a long story, I think, for everybody.
San: But you know, it, it, it started, uh, as a young boy, uh, about three or four. Um. I focused on many [00:02:00] things, but more of the fact my obsession with superheroes. And because I was left alone as a latchkey kid, you'd think back in my generation that was not abnormal to have children left by themselves. That didn't end up as a, a huge community disservice where the parents are looking at like 20 years in jail time.
So there were moments when the TV was my best friend and I, I was very aware of something bigger that was in the room. And so I was able to see through walls and, and see through people's bodies, and, and it was, it was very familiar for me. So being obsessed with reading comic books, uh, the Hulk, uh, Superman, Batman, all that kind of stuff just jelled with me.
So I was curious. Yet I knew there was something very, very normal about these type of powers. And so I had experienced little bits. And by the age of eight, uh, I [00:03:00] came across an experience where I was hit head on by a car and literally was dead for like
Michelle: Wow.
San: So what happened was, um, drunk driver, of course it seems to be a common thing that's like, whoa.
Ran right over me. My bike bike jam between his front wheels and the, and the road I flew up in the air would've seemed to be 20 feet. I saw the top of the trees hit the side of the road. I got up at that point, I was only literally a car space tow at the front of my house. And I, at the time I was living in the country, so it was a pretty remote, but I was riding from the center of town out to my house, which was like a, like a, a country style farm.
And so I got up after being hit. The only thing I could think about was I have to see my mother before I die. And as I stepped forward, I fell backwards. The second my body hit the ground, I was Peter Pan. I was flying [00:04:00] around, like literally observing my environment where I witnessed my mother screaming as she was running to my lifeless body.
And I was just consumed with I can fly anywhere. I was like, I am Superman. I shot up to the top of like the sky, the universe, and then came back down still observing this tragedy. And so this, this death experience to rebirth was really the catalyst for my curiosity, which led me deeper into a fascination with the Chinese culture.
And, you know, um, by the age of 10 I got became pretty mildly obsessed with bodybuilding and power lifting. And I picked up a. A, um, manual, a, a self sort of diagnosis of reality by this goofy guy by the name of Arnold Schwarzenegger called Education of a Bodybuilder. And so I was using that as my bible as a young boy.
[00:05:00] So at that point I was fasting and doing a lot of things nutritionally that are more community-wise, um, received and accepted. So I got deep into that culture. I started competing when I was 15 years old, got down to about 4% body fat at about 187 pounds. Then I progressed as I got into my late teens pulling ridiculous weights.
800 pound deadlift, 800 pound squat. And these were for reps. This was not my pr so I had no bar boundaries because my mentor was teach me, he was a 30 year veteran of bodybuilding. So it was teaching me about nutrition and, and training. So I had a really in depth understanding of all the mechanics. So when I'm using like fats to get shredded at the age of 11, like literally walking around with a bag of like walnut oil, um, coconut oil, things that most people wouldn't even, and [00:06:00] in those days had no idea about.
They didn't know what fasting was. They didn't know about, um, the ketogenic process, what that really means, how you can harness your hormones. So I was on a journey of mastering
Michelle: And where did you grow
San: And so that led in Australia. So I, by the time I was 17, 18, I, there was a lot of stress on the physiology. Um, I was tipping over 300 pounds in body weight at, at about 20 plus percent, which was insane for my age.
But I really had no boundaries because my mind led the reality. So if someone did, if I was deflated by a early twenties when I was, someone subtly told me, it's like someone telling you that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Someone made it clear to me that, you know, Schwarzenegger was using peds and other things of that nature.
I didn't believe [00:07:00] it. 'cause I had nothing to limit myself. One of the, the most powerful things my mother ever shared with me was, if you think it, you can create it mind over matter. Just a very simplistic sort of way to live, but. You have the ability to create your reality. So by 1718, voice in my head, you need to go and find meditation completely like changing the direction of my life as an obsessive physically, um, tactile individual to something.
That seemed so foreign in those days. It was, it was referred to as, uh, Hari Krishnas and vegans with hairy armpits. I mean, there was really no standard. You, uh, you know, we're coming out in the eighties from sort of a revolution of the sixties and seventies where people were obsessed with psycho Nordic experiences, you know, LSD and all that kind of good stuff.
So what was that really? I mean, we've got shades of like eastern [00:08:00] culture from the late forties, fifties moving into the sixties with yoga under and, and Hari Krishnas and all this Eastern philosophy stuff. And it was steeped in this mystic aspect. So I had always had a fascination with the Chinese culture.
Most of the time. Whenever I would have time, I'd go into the Center of Sydney and go to the movies and hang out in Chinatown. And it was like this natural, um. Homeostasis. I, I, the culture was so ingrained into who I am, and so that led me to this moment where I discovered meditation by looking up what they call, and I tell my kids, I have six kids.
Hey, it's called a classify. What is that? Well, that was in a newspaper. what's a newspaper? I mean, it's just funny how history changes. Anyway, so I discovered this meditation class, and this thing's telling me, you gotta try it now. [00:09:00] My golden rule in life is I'll try anything once. I don't know
whether that's good or what did you know about meditation? Nothing. You Now hurry, Krishna. Like, yeah. And you know, meditation was so foreign. It was like, okay, I'm good at picking up things, crushing them and throwing them. That was my instinct, that was my survival, that was my ability to transmute things. And I was extremely laser focused. Little did I know I was already.
Master my skills from a very young age. After my, my death and rebirth, it was a natural order. I would literally focus on something and it would trans translate and transmute into that. So I've been giving over and over again. You know, when you get under a weight, it's really not measured the, the power of the body until you really have to meet that moment where the tactile response of the, the flesh meeting the steel is really what sort of [00:10:00] adversity is necessary in this day and age, because generations, many generations leading up to this current one, they've become so soft that they don't know what it's like to live in their body.
And so, so many people are obsessed with getting outside of themselves. I don't wanna come back. This is a, this is a prison planet. I mean, there's many theories on. Someone's version of reality, which I'm not discounting, but like there is a reason within DAOs, uh, alchemy and the path of DAOs rights that you want to meet that moment.
The, the most natural order is that selection of the body can be a recreation, if not heaven on earth. You are a macro of a micro. So the, you know, the charge that we get right now by speaking on this, we can feel the visceral effects of that. That kin kinesthetic charge is a consensus that we're having that, you know, to my parapsychologists [00:11:00] friends is psychokinesis.
There is a absolute consensus that there is something greater. There is an energetic pull that we may not visually see for many of us, if you follow the path of alchemy with end Daoism, it becomes a very natural. Order to be able to see into things and have great depth of information in all layers from the ORIC field to the mind, to the body, all converging together.
And your ability to read that would be in more current common sensory perception like Clare Voyance mediumship channeling. That's, that's all goes under the same umbrella of, of a DAOs priest. These are all the things that I teach people that have been for many decades. It's kind of like a, it's part of the course of, of, of natural selection.
You recognize that you are all these things, you are iterations of everything. All is one, one is all. So the great [00:12:00] bellows we call it is that you are contracting, expanding at the same time you are. All things are nothing at the same time. And your mission, if you choose to accept it, Ethan Hunt, is to find the center point.
Find the center a point, which we refer to within Daoism is, uh, the primordial mother, the ji, the stillness that from that arrives, this resonance that is heaven on earth. This ability to transmute energy potential and it's vibratory, sequential, it holds resonance. And once you hold that resonance, oh yes, it will be yours.
Oh, yes, it will. So then you garner that and you enrich yourself in what we refer to as absorbing the riches. We start to saturate the physical body. That flesh and blood that looks back at you in the mirror is 50 trillion cells of potential electrical charges that can now be emanated and converges. One, you become the maestro, the [00:13:00] actual.
In, in definition of immortality crystallized in the material. By the way, one of my books, no Plug, you find that you create heaven on earth by synergizing yourself, and that that longevity is one of the major, uh, keys to any Daoist path that you recognize that by walking through that vesica, that center point we refer to as the ouje, you are everything and nothing, and that you, you don't fit into one category.
Daoism is one of those neutral things where people don't recognize. It's like, well, it's not my football team, it's everyone's football team, and we all come together recognizing that passing through. The, the whole what? The holy stream, we refer to the convergence. Once you recognize the symbiotic dance between yin and yang is this beautiful little tango that takes [00:14:00] place within this material state.
Magical things take place, really take place, and so you have to move past what someone would fundamentally, within a dualistic or centric, non centric state recognize things as identity or subjective to a point of a fixated point IE the exogenous consumption of the cannibalistic behavior of the human condition personality, finite mind.
It's not a requirement. The true passage, right of passage of the Taoist is. Natural and it is a dow given, right? That comes with the very synergistic realization. You are everything, the primordial mother ops, the gateway. And guess what We find this serendipitous [00:15:00] synchronistic moment. Wwe. Effortless action.
Michelle: thing ever.
San: You know? And I mean, as you pour yourself into your round cup, you are already, you are already trancing into that energy, my friend, and you're melting in like butter on a hot frying pan. It just all synergizes. We are communing, we are meeting this very moment and we are high as af right now getting into this state.
And it, it's magical when, when you recognize that, that's the potency. So I find this meditation class. I reluctantly drive out there. I'm like 18 years old. I'm thinking, Hmm. It's in a bad neighborhood. I mean, I'm an overgrown gorilla, right? You know, people would look at me and be petrified, but I was more concerned.
I'm a, I'm a little teddy bear, so I drive out there and it's a, it's basically a free workshop. I kind of figured there was some angle, like someone was trying to [00:16:00] write off a nonprofit or something, you know? It's like, okay, this woman's a grandma. She's gonna offer this, um, meditation. She was a Qigong grandma, whatever.
I was like, look, it's free. It's, let me go there. So I turned up. Reluctantly parked in the parking lot of the wreck center. It was being offered at a, a, you know, a community sort of center around me was just like chaos, mayhem, screaming dogs, barking ambulances. It was in a bad neighborhood. Let's be very clear.
I'm not gonna sugar coat it. So I pulled out, I get out of the parking lot, I walk up the stairs to this rec center and walk in the door and there's a pew of people sort of like fussing around getting into this weird position that I later found out was called the lotus position, kind of sitting weird.
Me, I was, you know, stone sort of trying to milk back to butter, but it wasn't really happening at that point. I'd [00:17:00] trained myself to be stringent and, and. And stoic and hard. So I had to crack open the soft center. So I'm attempting to sit down in this lotus position. I look like an overgrown eight, trying to scratch my ass.
This woman is walking around and standing. She would come up to here on me and I'm just sort of hunching over and, you know, she was so receptive and, and opening. She didn't really go, oh, you need to do this, do that. She was just observing, letting people get into position and people are like wanting to run their hot chakras and they're sitting in there and they're posturing themselves, attempting to straighten their, their channel, their flow.
And uh, I was just trying to survive. I was hearing all this crap outside. I was really thinking, I'm, I need to get up and leave. This is not for me. Whatever this meditation thing is, I want action, man. I want crushing, I want physical engagement. I was more concerned with the screaming, the [00:18:00] dogs barking, whatever.
And so she, she gets comfortable, she looks around, she walks up to me, she just kind of smiles and nods her head and keeps walking around the room, gets in the center of the room and I'm thinking, I'm gonna get up and go, I don't wanna interrupt this anymore. And all of a sudden she goes, I want you to, um, listen to my voice.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in the same second then she said, and then everything will fall away. And I kid you not for 20 minutes, I stop sound. Well, I observed stopping sound. Nothing gone. I'm like, my, my eyes are like sauce. And there was no sound. I'm looking around the room, she's looking at me going and I'm like. It's like, there's no freaking sound. I can't hear anything coming out of her mouth. 'cause she's, IG too, too, too. At my moment of, of, of inquiry, it was a meditation. So I imagine someone was speaking [00:19:00] something, nothing, no sound in the background, no sound outside, gone. And my eyes were getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
And for 20 minutes I was like, this is it. This is the superpower that I was looking for. I have found it. I have met it. Holy crap. I need this now. And so this went on for 20 minutes. I was blown away and she was very humble and soft and said, oh, you did very well, thank you. I left there going, what next? I mean, I didn't pursue her, it was just a natural thing.
So I went back to the, um, the classifieds and I was like, okay. Channeling. Someone said channeling. I'm like, what am I gonna channeling? What is that finder? And how did the newspaper, this guy's offering a channeling class. So I turned up to that the next day, I'm addicted. I'm like, whatever this is, I want more of it.
I [00:20:00] mean, this is crazy. I mean, stopping sound like I was just so over overwhelmed with excitement. I turn up to this channeling class and this guy looks at me and goes, no. I'm like, whoa, no. And I'm like, whoa. I said, no, no, and I'm, can you please let me know why you're saying no? I'm just here for the, I don't care.
You are not someone that needs to be in this class. And I'm like. Hey, look, you're offering it. Take my money. I think it was five or 10 bucks at the time. It was like, you know, back in those days it was a lot of money back in the eighties. I'm like, no. I'm like, please just let me, you know, I wanted to write.
It's like, take a look around you look at a place, and I did look at a place, everyone else looked like a [00:21:00] hippie just hanging out with their organic clothes on and they were very, very much relaxed, vegan types. He's like, this is not gonna help you. Whatever you're looking for, you're not gonna find it.
You'll never be able to do this. I'm like, can I please just be here? Like this force was like, you must be here. So. He let me sit on the class, not five, 10 minutes later, the whole room was standing around me with their sticks, with marshmallows, cooking it from the emanation of, of the vibration frequency that was coming outta my body.
'cause I hit, lasu, entered my body at a, at a, at a, a velocity that was like a rocket shooting off to the moon. And I was sweating profusely and emanating this radiance that I'd never, I was like, I am, I'm observing my body literally vibrating and moving in a, in a pattern that I've [00:22:00] never expressed before and my mouth was unable to open and something was talking through me, where as I looked through my eyes, there was a superficial energy that was laying on top of me that was speaking to the audience.
I had no control over. My mouth was shut. So. Was lasu talking and this guy was like, really? And everyone was like, holy crap, how is this happening? I had no expectation that was I, I fundamentally, I remind people, I'm like, accept everything at face value like a child, and you'll be shocked if you're childlike in your nature, what can come about of your own exploration of self, that things can literally happen instantaneously.
You don't have to spend lifetimes committing to anything if you allow yourself to be a recipient to really [00:23:00] receive the new version of self, the new iteration of self. So I was channeling Lazu and everyone was freaking out. All these words were coming out. I was speaking on it. Then it got really freaky because then he left my body and now I seem him as clear as I see you now everywhere.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
San: Like, now I'm looking at this spirit that is like as dense and as 4K, eight K as you are, and hearing his voice and I'm like, okay, I'm officially crazy. This is awesome. I can't wait.
Michelle: So he became your than that. I'm like, well, he's teacher. Yeah. Still to this day, 30 years later, he is still my teacher.
San: And channeling is an art form that can be taken on by anyone. 'cause we all do it. You don't realize you're being calm and did by your attention, intention, understanding the convergence of conscious and unconscious. We're doing it all the time. As one of my
[00:24:00] teachers would say, uh, Jade I wholeheartedly agree.
right? Well, he, he always reminds us all sorts of, your mind are not yours.
Well then whose are they?
Michelle: I was just literally listening to that in a, an audio book today. It was talking about how, uh, it's like the muse, you know, creations. It, it's coming from somewhere. We're really channeling it. It's not just randomly coming from
San: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, um, started talking to this guy that was literally an apparition that was as dense as you are. And I think I've lost my mind because as a young boy, I warded off, um, a, a, a pretty big virus for most of my friends who were sort of aimless and they couldn't understand why my obsession with bodybuilding and power lifting became, um, more dominant than anything else.
So I'd hang out with my childhood friends that, you know, in my teens and they'd all be smoking dope, taking [00:25:00] drugs, all this kind of stuff. And I'd be in the corner of the room reading a muscle and fitness magazine going, you know, and, and, and at a certain point, I think I was 16, they were like, you know what?
You gotta go. I'm like. What you're a buzzkill. Like either take the drugs or not. But I'm like, we're being friends for so long. It's like, just get outta here man. And like I was so adamant, there was a force at that point throughout my childhood that said, do not touch that stuff. Nothing. Not a don't go near it.
And I was like, okay, I'm cool with that. It doesn't, it's not swaying me one way, another, I couldn't care less about these things. But later in my teenage years at the point where I got to channeling lets sue outta my 20 childhood friends, pretty much most of them had committed
suicide because it's such a daunting effect now.
I would say that's even worse now because [00:26:00] they're being completely bombarded with this false, uh, distortion through digital media that makes it very difficult for a young mind to get a handle on who they are. Very difficult, very dis, too much distortion, too much
information. So I had all, what happened was by the time I was seeing Lazu, I thought I'd lost my mind like everyone else, because they just started to just melt away their own sense of self, their own persona just disintegrated.
And I witnessed that throughout my whole teenage life. And so I was like, I wanted to avoid this. So now all of a sudden I've gone and started this channeling thing. Now I'm seeing gray men talking to me, hearing them, seeing them, I'm, I've lost my mind. And I was so deep into it from no sound to this. It was like a gut punch.
So the third day turns around this guy's offering channel, [00:27:00] um, clairvoyance training. I'm like, oh yeah, well, and he's like, dude, I'm not. So, and a 60 year veteran, completely pissed off that some newbie barbarian walks into his very refined channeling class and literally is channeling this high level of wisdom and source information.
And I really didn't know what I was doing. Of course I didn't. But I knew that I was at, arrived home with this energy and this relationship with, uh, Lazu. And so now I've got this in the background. I see this guy with my eyes open. I'm going batshit crazy at this point. I'm all in. What else could, what's, what else could possibly happen after two days of mind bending stuff?
Sure. So I went through this channeling workshop, um, no, sorry, clairvoyance, and it was a day training. Next minute he goes, okay, I've given you the instruction. Now, a lot of things that I, that [00:28:00] I attribute to me, being able to remember who I am is that there's nothing more to it. You just accept it at face value and it just recognizes and realize itself.
So I was like, okay, here's the run of the mill bodybuilding power lifting. You do five exercises, three compound, one isolate, uh, low reps, high reps. What? How are you gonna manipulate the muscle fiber to get the response? I mean, that's just my mindset. I've been training for so many years. This is how I do it.
You eat that. You don't eat that. Here's the endocrine system, manipulated. You sleep, you don't sleep. All the things that you need to stimulate a response within the body. So I took this the same way. It's like, okay, so now I'm seeing this gray guy. I am listening to his voice. I'm hearing him. I'm, I must be going crazy.
Now. This guy teaches me, oh, this is clairvoyant reading 1 0 1. Read the ORs. Here's how you do it. One through 10. Do do. And so I did the class and here's [00:29:00] the manual. Okay, now read me Mr. Channeler. Like, he was getting really, really, really bitchy. Really, like, had a disdain for me now because he was like, this is ridiculous.
I've done this for 60 years. What happened to the spiritual enlightenment? And this, this barbarian clown walks in and he's channeling, you know, Zu. And so it's like, yeah, sure, go ahead. Show me how you could channel, I mean, uh, read my, read my aura, and I'm like, okay. And I, you know, there's no standard. I'm just giving this one through 10 sort of thing.
I'm like, okay. Um, okay. There's an energy telling me you don't continue to give them. Your students' life force, they will kill you. And he was just like, what? Up, up, up. We're in like a small little environment like someone's house and [00:30:00] they had like this group of 20 people get up, go in the other room, get up, get up, get up, go.
And I'm being pushed in. I'm like, what, what, what did I do? He sits me down. He goes, what did you just say to me? And I was like, I don't know. Like you asked me to read your energy. This energy came in and it's saying that if you don't continue giving them the energy of your students, it's gonna take your life. And then next minute, it's giving me this confession. Okay, look, I need you to understand something. I'm, I'm, I'm in a transition. I'm, I'm reprioritizing how, and I'm not, I'm not hearing anything. I just want, my goal is. Did I hit the goal coach or did I not hit the goal? Because that's all I'm looking for.
Did, was it, was it close to, did I go through the goalpost? I mean, what's going on? So he's confessing to me that this is his behavior, this is what he's doing. He's like, he's literally really siphoning energy from his students. And I'm like, it wasn't comprehending in my mind. 'cause what do I [00:31:00] know? I'm like, three days into this whole experience, what the hell do I have a clue about?
You know, c siping energy from people or knowing what energy is, or auras or, I mean, this is all foreign. So next minute he starts confessing and it finally hits me and I go, did I get it right? like, look, I need no, did I get it right? Is this information correct? Look, I just, no, no, no, no. Just tell me.
'cause I, I'm goal oriented. It's like, tell me. He's like, yes, but I want to explain myself. And I was just like, holy shit. This is mind blowing to me. This is like, this is like out of the, this is out of my TV shows. This is the comic books. This is what Superman does. This is, I mean, it was just overwhelming.
One thing after another. And so he does a confession [00:32:00] thing. Um, latest story about him, if we get to it, fourth day goes in, I get, I get a crash course in what they call distant healing. Everyone knows what this is. This is a common denominator. You know, you, you apply either, uh, physical acupuncture or you could do virtual acupuncture.
You can do all types of way crazy things to access people's channels. Um, I finished this thing. I go home. I'm getting a call. 'cause in those days we have rotary phones, you know, it's like we don't have cell phones, dude. We're never like put away. So a friend of mine calls and she goes, look, I can't make it.
I was gonna come and see you today. My ankle's busted, I rolled it. It's the size of watermelon. I'm probably gonna be off it for days. It's gonna take me weeks to, to rehab this scene. It's over. And I'm like, oh, that's too bad. I want to catch up with you. And she was like, go look, I'll catch up with you. And she went to to, to hang up on me and I was like, [00:33:00] hold on.
She's like, what do you mean hold on, hold on. I learned this thing today. And she's like, mm, what It's called distant healing. And she's like, oh, what is that? I'm like, can you just give me five seconds? Can I try this thing on you? Like if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it works, you're gonna feel better.
She's like, look, can you just hurry up? Whatever it is. I said, it'll take two minutes. So I had again, another script. It had the form, it had an incantation, which evoked certain things. Then you would speak through it, and then in the end you would cast it with a specific, um, uh, catalyst. Um, what they refer to as, um, the vehicle of the divine mother.
So this would, would evoke the magic and solidify it. So I went through the, the, the instruction and she's like, can you hurry up, [00:34:00] please, please. I'm like, two seconds. Two seconds. I'm just about, now I'm gonna say this thing. I'm gonna say it. A couple of words, just don't make any sense of it. And then let's see what happens.
And she's like, please hurry up. I just wanna get off the phone. So I do, I go through the thing next when I'm like, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It was five words. That's it. Then I hear whatever, and she starts screaming through the phone and I'm like. What, what? And I'm like, what? And she goes, I don't know what kind of sorcery you're into, but my ankle just shrunk and it's back to normal.
And I'm standing on it right now. What is going on? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm thinking I'm seeing a a, an old dude talking to me. I'm pretty much insane at this point. It's like, what, what else can happen? I'm, I'm reading Aus, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm like, sure it did. At this point, I [00:35:00] want to dispute things.
'cause I'm, I know I'm going crazy, but I wanna dispute it. She's like, you need to come over here. This is crazy. And I'm like, back in those days, Polaroids are big things. Take the snapshot, you know? Oh yeah. Check it out. Look what, what? We've taken a photo of blah, blah, blah. She was a, she had a habit of taking photos before and before and after of anything.
Right. Whatever it is, she was bought out of her mind. So she's take photos of her. I get over to her place, she's living with her parents. She runs up to me, gives me a big hug, and then it's like, okay, you're standing. That's great. My ankle swollen size of a a, a cantaloupe. I'm like, I don't see that. 'cause I wanted to, I want to push back on all this craziness.
I'm like, I need to stop. Like this is getting insane. She shows me the Polaroid that I freak out and she goes, I'm standing on it and I'm like, holy shit. And the mother's sitting there 'cause it's [00:36:00] in her family home. And her mother had a habit of, you know, her, her normal remedy is two packs of cigarettes in a bottle of vodka is the normal remedy for a day in the life of.
So she's sitting there puffing away. You know, back in those days secondhand spoke was good for you. You know, it's like, and I'm like doing this and she's talking to me and the mother's sitting there and she goes. knew you were a healer. And I was like, are you talking about? I knew you were a healer. What does that even mean? And so I'm having this three-way spiritual doctor filled with these people. They're like, yeah, look, you can do it. You have the superpower. I'm like, I dunno what you think I have. I just followed instruction. If this is accurate, you have definitely received a healing. And so this gets to a nominal level [00:37:00] where a phenomenal level where the mother goes, I want you to come back tomorrow.
I've got a problem with my foot. So in essence, she doesn't believe in doctors. She has a stupid, stupid amount of money. She has a bunch of yes people around her. She had a distended stomach. Like honestly, she's near death. Like in my opinion. Like she couldn't say anything, just smokes away, drinks, vodka, whatever.
So I turn up to her house, I got lasu talking to me in the periphery. I'm seeing him. It's like, okay, well what else could happen? I mean is, what am I gonna do here? I'm gonna, you got a problem with your foot? So I literally turn up going, well, what am I gonna do? Sure, let's play along with this. I pull her sock off.
It was gangs. It was like black. And I'm like, whoa. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a doctor. I'm just like, uh, I dunno what, I'm crazy. All this kind of stuff. And I'm thinking in my head now, LA's like, no, no, no, no. [00:38:00] And I'm like, what do you mean? No, no, no, no. You are gonna watch your healing. I'm like, what do you mean watch your healing?
And I sat there and for 40 minutes, watched her foot go from black to pink in color
Michelle: That's crazy. Wow.
San: beyond
Michelle: but they do that. I, I've seen videos of that in China with the
San: Oh yeah. It's, it's 100% real. I've been experiencing
Michelle: You can actually, they, they recorded it, uh, where tumors would shrink
in tumor. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen everything from
San: that
to tumors disappear. Um, when I got comfortable with it, I used to just take, uh, sebaceous cysts raised to the top of the skin and burst them like, you know, volcanoes. That was my favorite. That's my favorite. That was my obsession. So this turns into I, I, I need to find more. So then it became a passion of mine. I got involved with, uh, a couple of teachers. I ended up [00:39:00] going to China that ordained in two lineages of Daoism. Um, kind of long story short, 'cause we could go on for hours. I'm very good at, uh, storytelling. And so here I am today, 30 plus, 36 years later, teaching people internal alchemy because I had to make sense of this.
Like, of course if you, if you go deeper in understanding the layers of self, I'm just reliving a life that I've had a thousand times over. And it's for me to experience this, this un unimaginable, unlimited state that returns everyone back to their, their greatest level of homeostasis. This holiness the holy stream.
And so Daoism, um, within that sense of internal alchemy, we refer to the knee. Knee done and Wade done coupling. You evoke and Ong is the internal power that you derives from that [00:40:00] chemical process. And so the more you understand how these things work, you're off to the races and pretty much there's nothing that cannot be achieved.
It's all about transmuting distortion, which is a lower sequential state of energy potential. The material, and we refer to this within DAOs me metaphysics as the highest point being the primordial mother. She's the void. She animates consciousness. Consciousness animates the she, the spirit. The spirit animates energy.
Energy animates the material world, the body, the lower distortion, different variables. What most people tend to do is they play between the material world and the energy, and they never really meet themselves where attention, intention. Generates what we call sheenang, which is spirit power. That arrives and then all of a sudden you are now able to create perfection, heaven on earth.
These [00:41:00] things arrive when you converge. Past, present, and future. There is, it's not subject to time and space. It's all just one stream. a make sense
Michelle: me. Um, hopefully for the listeners, but I mean, listen, you know, we have, um, Dr. Joe Dispenza doing a lot of this and, and, and creating research, really bridging the science and, and the spirituality. And this, it really comes down to that quantum, that void. That's the quantum, it's really coming to that place.
And I think that, uh, we, I think as a collective have been so conditioned to. Identify with the material, material world. So we're in this constant reaction and stuck into that same state because we're only reacting and responding to the material. Nothing else. And so this, uh, you were saying the energy and the material.
So I see this a lot in my own practice because I work with fertility and like, and, and so [00:42:00] many things landed when you were talking about even channeling. 'cause it's a form of channeling. And so where are those blocks? And I think those blocks can be ignored or not seen or like missed by many people because there's so, there're center of focus that kind of like we were talking about when you were first starting to train, you get so hyper-focused on that material, on that goal that you miss everything behind the scenes that's impacting what you're looking at.
And so, um. I always say, there's always that it really begins in that spiritual aspect that like, um, refined aspect of ourselves that we rarely pay attention to. And so getting that into that state of quietness like you've experienced when you were meditating, getting into that state or allowing ourselves that opportunity to experience that state of quietness.
And you look at all of, a lot of the ancient, um, [00:43:00] teachings and they all really come down to, and they always, always point us back to that void, that non-attachment. They say, don't get to attached. The more you get attached, you're consistently keeping yourself in that wheel. And I think about what you were talking about before, and I, when you're talking about that void, that kind of state, um, I see it as like the eye of the storm.
You can get yourself sucked into that, that circular wheel, or you can kind of go back into that. Void. And from a material aspect, the void feels like we're gonna lose everything. But that's really where we find our power. So it's kind of like, um, you, you almost can't look at it from a material perspective if you really want to gain that power because the material aspect it, which is like kind of where the ego, you know, that ego mind will always kind of teach [00:44:00] you or convince you that you're losing by doing that.
But we can't lose 'cause that's where we come from. We come from this glorious state that really has no words to describe it. So like that glorious state. It just is, it's kind of beneath everything else. And the only way we can really connect with it is really, uh, to detach and kind of get into that inward space of stillness.
That's kind of how I perceive it.
San: No, I agree with you. I mean, it, it's understanding the, the, the, the effects of. The exogenous trials of the finite mind, which has turned you into, you know, your Sherlock to your Watson, the human condition through the labyrinth of the finite, my mind coming out the other end as a human being that requires a level of [00:45:00] tenacity, uh, security, and then insecure states where you are, what we refer to as the selfishness to the selflessness requires the sacrifice.
And that sacrifice is a, a version of self that cannot be broken. So the version of self that cannot be broken is the very self that needs to go back into the wood chipper. So when you're looking at it from the perspective of just even, um, I just transcribed the DDI ching with lasu. A year and a half ago.
And so we, there's a, there's an actual 2024 version of the Ding that I channeled immediately from lasu. It's about 300 pages and it's like no other ta Tao de ching ding that you have ever read, read. And so I channel normally channel channel three to five, 600 page books in about a [00:46:00] day in some cases. And so, you know, I have about eight books right now that I'm just about to publish that are all in, in collaboration with lasu.
So I don't claim to know anything. I'm just, uh, you know, I'm as dumb as rocks and, and the information seems to flow inherently from the fact that I know nothing. And then you know everything. But when you let that be the true guiding force as you are the barometer. And so when you think you don't know, if you know, you feel it's more than a feeling.
Michelle: I'll be honest, I feel like, um, you know, it's interesting. I, I spoke to an intuitive years ago who was, I think she was the one that, um, won America's, uh, psychic challenge. She had passed away, Michelle White Dove. [00:47:00] Um, and she had mentioned that I have an Asian master and I feel like it could be lasu because I feel like I just get this stuff.
I naturally just. I just get it, it just makes sense to my mind. And um, it just makes sense. And I think part of it is, is really a, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking, I'm really picturing in my mind somebody holding onto something in the material world, which is kind of the Ellucian, the illusionary world, um, holding on for dear life, thinking that that's going to protect them.
But the truth is it's just not, it's, it's an illusion. So we're kind of like holding onto an illusion. I think that that's where people get stuck and that's how our bodies get stuck. And we talk about channeling, um, I work with fertility and you know, that's a channeling of the body channeling to connect.
Sometimes I have my patients and my clients [00:48:00] channel and connect with the spirit babies and that. I see it all the time. I see the connection that they have. I see the signs that they get and the signs that they get relay into what really happens to the point where two of my stories were connected to birth dates of their babies, the future babies, and it was, I mean, I witness it because I'm there with them through the process before they even get pregnant.
So I can attest to it. I'm a witness and I see those things happening, but the moment they start to get become a channel or they get into the state of channeling, they not only only open themselves up to the information, but in so doing, because you know it's spirit, you know, energy body, they're also impacting their bodies and closely near to that, sometimes it could be about nine months.
For it to really [00:49:00] manifest into a pregnancy. But I, I see it and I really love hearing you talk because I think that, of course I had my Chinese medicine perspective and I work a lot on nutrition and, but I've always been really drawn to the spiritual aspect of it. And I feel like as I'm talking to you, it's inspiring me to really step into that as a practitioner and to really kind of like lean on that aspect as well.
Because I feel like that if you, if you really master that, and I don't think we can ever fully master it, but if we really connect to that, I think that that, um, that's really the source. So everything else is secondary.
San: Mm. Yeah, I mean, you're a hundred percent. I mean, I have a lot of students, most of them are doctors of, of just medicine or doctors of Chinese medicine. I mean, the problem is, is it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not [00:50:00] cohesive until you meet the energy you meet yourself. So all this other stuff is like a, a little bit of an enhancement of who you really are.
When you return to the secret source, the holy stream, all that other stuff becomes realized and recognized as a remedy. You have to be able to hold the charge. The biggest problem is, is the, the inadequacy and the, the, the part that people like to spiritual bypass. They're very, they're very essence. So they want to go straight to, uh, you know, many of my students of Brahman, 20 year transmitters of high consciousness, cosmic consciousness, all this kind of stuff.
And I think it's fantastic. But then the hubcaps come off the wheels. The body cannot hold the charge that you are emanating as the tuning fork. The bio field, the actual physicality is, the lens is not a whole. So it's undercooked. [00:51:00] It's never overcooked. So most people pull in an inversion. So for, for the purposes of Daoism, you know, is the inversion, the inverted effects, right?
Yong is the x. Extra exponential expansion of, so when you meet those two energies, that's when you
arrive. Being able to not dominate, but regulate and then converge them as one. So most people that become intuitive or more in their intuitive self and less in their intellectual self become corrupted because they pull that and they invert that energy so ness, the absorption, all colors.
Yong is the admission of all colors. That's it from a DAOs perspective. Now, when we get layers of things like, you know, from me as a priest, you know, I teach people everything from, you [00:52:00] know, understanding about all levels of DAOs magic and being able to remedy it, whether it's an exorcism or dispelling black magic, whatever.
It's all part and parcel. This whole path and everything returns back to a, a consensus of one stream. And so people get overwhelmed and most, um, psychics and mediums become exhausted. They sell their soul. They, they expend their life force. We refer to it as jing, their constitution, the power that they have, that they were born into, this, their embryonic self that takes that first breath, that then engages the primordial mother's creation of Yong, which is the flesh. Now we get down with it, and I, you know, for most people, I've never seen anyone at a hundred percent when they're, when they come into a [00:53:00] material state of body, yet. Even at 80%, the whole point of Dao alchemy is to teach you to bring your, your physical body to a hundred percent, from a hundred percent to a thousand percent, from a thousand percent to 9000%.
Then we are embodying and emanating what we refer to as immortality crystallized in the material. Heaven on earth has arrived. You are now the, the evidence of longevity and this life force is being charged and maintained as a so holy stream. This is where magic takes place. This is where serendipitous synchronistic moments are unrivaled.
They are absolute. The absolute is where you're talking about arriving. It's not a subjective absolute where you need to run in the other direction. My football team's the greatest. No, it's an absolute universal sense of self [00:54:00] that does not require your participation. What? No, the finite mind, your need to lead the charge is unnecessary.
Take a back seat. Anyone that wants to dismantle their personality, they need to be forewarned. It's a mistake. Recognize that I like chocolate bon bonds. I drive my side by side of the desert a hundred miles an hour, and unfortunately I'm deficient enough to watch Netflix and pay for it, but that is not who I am.
So that is the fruit and the, the, the chocolate syrup on top of your, to experience this humanistic expression, I have never met a miracle, a supernatural, paranormal, supernormal experience with any form of identity. The convergence of past, present, and future arrive [00:55:00] with nothing. And so. My normal processes is I have people, many, my, a lot of people come to me, grandma's in a coma, and you know you are that guy.
They tell me, you can help me. Boom. No, grandma's not gonna die. She's gonna come outta the coma. Next day she comes outta the coma. The doctors are like,
what happened? She was in critical condition and ready to die. No, I had a communication with her. She said she just needed more love and support from her family.
She had no reason to continue this path. And with this, this union of family and this message, she came right back out to play. Now, this is very common for me. I've been doing this for 30 years, and so miracles are very normal. Seeing weird things like gaseous seal before my eyes, tumors disappear. Um.
Healings immediately. And some of the most [00:56:00] profound healings that I've witnessed. Everything from someone at the verge of having a C-section, right? And in five seconds the baby about face, just with a communication and boom, that it's an arrival. That happens not too fast 'cause minutes is like you're gonna get, you're gonna get razor burn from that.
But very short order where someone's been basically holding on in labor due to their own fear. And then their lack of communication with the baby is where you tend to find, you know, resistance and then all of a sudden, boom, you have an arrival. Takes little to no time or communicating and transitioning someone who has really come to the end of the road.
And so from that. You. You see miracles as, as the whole energy system [00:57:00] shuts down, and then they arrive and as a greater sense of self filling out the space, filling out the room, filling their loved ones with this joy and happiness and love, that was part of who they really were as a humanistic expression. And so all that is just part of a normal day in the office as a doers priest. Yay. So good to be me.
Michelle: I mean, it's really amazing stuff. And I will say, um, because I've been such a, I guess, a student of Dr. Joe Dispenza for many years. I've gone to so many of his, um, retreats. I, I am fascinated by how he bridges it into like, you know, actual, as much tangible as possible, but it, you know, you can only do so much when you're talking about the quantum and something that's, um, that is not tangible by nature.
And so I find that everything you're talking about really like, is very similar to the experiences [00:58:00] that they have there, which is you kind of jump timelines. And, uh, you go into a completely different reality and people come in with tumors and they come out without, or they come in with wheelchairs and they come out walking.
And I, I've seen them right in front of me in the audience. It's really remarkable. So, and his, um, I guess theory because he says, you know, I can only kind of measure what we have, but I can't say why, per se. I could just tell you my theory. And the way he sees it is it is, you know, you're going into this quantum and part of what he says, you go into nothing.
You go into nothing. Like you completely take away the identification. As you're talking about that, I think about the listeners of this podcast who. Frequently, frequently go to doctors and are given so many labels and identifications and, um, you're infertile or this can't happen for you, or you're, you have no eggs, or, you know, all these [00:59:00] ideas that really get into their minds and seep into their subconscious minds.
And, um, but I've had so many stories that completely defy that and defy the predictions that they've been given. And it's, it's pretty wild. But when you say identification, I think Wow. Like that, that's probably one of the biggest things is so many people end up identifying with really their diagnosis, which be they don't really know better, they just go to the doctor for that information. And then when they, I think a lot of them end up feeling intuitively, hmm. Maybe this isn't really my path. Like that's typically what I'll see is people feeling that and then finding me, or finding you, or finding people like us, I think because they, they feel something within them. Say, maybe there's something more to this whole journey.
Maybe there's something [01:00:00] bigger. Maybe there's some kind of intelligence. Maybe there's some way that I can figure this out. Like, and I think that that's, that is a very real thing, but because it is so subtle, we can often mistake it for just a thought and something random.
San: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, evidence is the true Remedy elementary, my Dear Watson deduction and recognizing that, you know, um, that divine spark is that real seed that creates a level of awareness that turns into, um. Inquiry. An inquiry then blossoms into curiosity. Curiosity feeds the very essence of self. That becomes a belief system. And so that belief system is only met with evidence. And you can go [01:01:00] either way on that. You know, you can feed the system something that is repeatable, that is met with your subjective reality that may not serve you or the community or others, but you are still getting evidence of that. You know, I'm a miserable person and it shows, so it's like I am a positive person.
And it shows you don't, the simplicity of
Michelle: I am a magical person and it shows. Yeah, it's like a, the superhero, you know, that's like the, yeah.
San: And you don't recognize how, how simple that is, that you are the master keeper, creator of your reality. And, uh, you only wanna take ownership when you have given, you've been given the hallmark version of self where, oh yeah, okay, this is considered good. This is, uh, you know, enchanted. This is charming, this is blessed, this is blissful.
This is [01:02:00] joy. This is harmony, this is happiness. This is love, love being the most subjective thing out there. And yet people tend to think, oh, well, it's a universe. It's, it's only universal. Once you meet that moment. Until then, it could be razor blades and bunny rabbits and unicorns and, you know, uh, cloud farts.
Who knows? It just varies until you recognize that the sim, the power of Daoist alchemy is this. We refine it down to the universe doesn't have a moral compass. The true essence of the cosmos is the convergence of the sun, the earth, the moon from an alchemical perspective, and you evoke the primordial mother within you are heaven on earth.
That cosmos is the very expression of the physicality. And you show yourself, your harmonious version will show you that as the barometer of the tuning fork, the, the imperium, the dominion, the maestro to the [01:03:00] very soundtrack of self. And that is derived from meeting that moment. And that moment comes in all different types of forms, but you will find it because you are searching as a seeker, that will become your reality as you continue the path one foot after another.
I always find, um, you know, dispenser, very thought evoking and sometimes interesting and then a. A little, little bit, uh, you know, dismissing when, when you say mystifying the mystical, it, it, it almost just gives you a, a free ticket. It's like, Hey, look, you're a meth head, but not today.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
San: You have to recognize that you want to make this a formula, which I agree with is a method to the madness.
But understand that [01:04:00] everyone's origin story, even though they may swear by the, the atheism or whatever it is that they believe, the nihilism, the uh, the delusion, whatever you are at there, is still an origin story that goes deeper. And if you keep looking, you will find it. And it generally doesn't come from scientism.
Scientism is a, is a byproduct of something greater. So, you know, scientism.
Michelle: I agree with you. It can you know, you know, and so there's so much magic that comes out of what he puts together. And then on the other side of the coin, if you're listening to the linguistics, there's a, a double negative there. You know, when he talks about the work, there's no such thing in Daoism.
San: Work doesn't exist. It's an effortless action that derives true mastery.
Michelle: But not everybody's ready to hear that. I think that that's where
San: Oh, of course not.[01:05:00]
Michelle: He's able to bridge people that are still very much identified with the material world and bridge them in an easy way. And then maybe after that they can go into another level of, you know, the, the depth.
San: Well, well, I think the biggest rub for me is when you, when you, when you harpoon the word work, and for me, I, I'm not a fan of it. I teach people this stuff. I'm, you know, body language and understanding deeper layers of self all the way through to. Neurolinguistic programming, or if you want me to erase your name and have you see me as Justin Bieber, we can do that.
That's a lot of fun. But that's not, this is a, an iteration that you, you are slipping into a state and so everything is a state, everything is a variable. You have conditioned yourself very well. You sit into a trance very well, and you've been doing that through most of this conversation. You go right into the energy, and I mean, if, if [01:06:00] the audience looks close enough, you are, you are replicating the infinity pattern from the energy that's moving through your body as we're speaking to you, and you don't even recognize that.
It's, it's a, it's, it's cyclical and it's cycling and the pacing and leading is showing itself through the body. So, you know, divination. More commonly for all my, uh, hypnogogic, uh, ma grand masters of, of something called trance or hypnosis. It's a dirty word. I don't really care to use it, it doesn't really mean much.
But I mean, this is a deeper state of, uh, you know, idio motor response. This is where you are getting information from the unconscious through the body, and you can get that through tarot cards, uh, you know, dowsing, forks, um, you know, Ouija boards, you name it. You will get a message that will show you something greater, a pendulum.[01:07:00]
The simplicity as of the pendulum master testing, it will all bring you back to that point. And so. Idio motor returns to idio Grahams, which seem to be a common thing that a lot of my remote viewer friends like to use to teach people this type of state. Um, you know, body Dowsing is a, is an, an ancient da art form and I teach people how to use that in a much higher level where, you know, my favorite trick is taking someone to hundred.
I'm out here in Las Vegas, so I'll take 'em to a, some crappy hotel with a 5,000 rooms like the MGM Grand. Give 'em a quarter, go and put it somewhere in the hotel and then I'll come back and go, yeah, good luck finding that one. Little do they know, they're a, a walking emanated state of all information that I see through their body and I just use them as a tuning fork and take me right back to the coin.
They freak out and go, how is that possible? [01:08:00] I'm not touching them because that's a little archaic, sort of like ProGlide ish, but it's still muscle testing. You, you could put your hand on their, their wrist and use that as a, a more stiffer version. A, a, a higher level of mastery. I don't need that. And it's just a matter of conditioning.
Everyone can be conditioned 'cause I teach my students all this, but furthermore, it's a, it's a learned experience. That's part of the alchemy. It's another level of sensory perception. It's not just limited to me. This, I would just say it really clearly. This shit has been around for thousands of years.
It's been handed down from generation. Millions of people have used it before us. So why do I need to reinvent the wheel? I just use the mechanisms within the alchemy that are so powerful and they literally turn you into a superstar when it comes to. You know, consciousness, you are on another level,
Michelle: it's so wild. I, I feel [01:09:00] like I need to have you back for not just one more, two more episodes. 'cause I feel like we're just scratching the surface and there's just so many things that we can talk about. Um, so future, you know, it might be good to, you know, come back and then have more conversations.
'cause we're just really scratching the surface and, um, there's just so much to talk about and I love talking about this kind of subject. Um, it's just, it, it's so vast and I've always, I think even as, uh, somebody young, I always like resisted, I guess maybe, you know, it's my intelligence somewhere in play.
Anything that. Defined me too much. And I think that that was just, and I get very, um, I notice that when my patients come and tell me that, like their doctors define them in certain ways, I get, I find, find myself. It's a trigger for me. I'm like, no. So, because I know that there's more, I just feel like there's something much more vast, and the second we [01:10:00] start to really confine ourselves, that's when we limit our expression.
And, um, yeah, we can go on and on. There's so many things that I wanna talk about, but I, I would like to maybe have you back, but for people listening and who are really curious about everything that you've shared or interested in learning more about this subject matter and are also interested in working with you somehow, how can people find you?
What are your offerings?
San: Sure, sure. So I, I have a website called I, uh, i immortal DAUs rights.com. And through that I offer a number of different, um. Our chemical remedies for things, um, you can find what you're looking for, uh, all different types of stuff. And if you're, you're, you are, uh, in inclined to want to pursue more as a student, I have an application form, people can reach out and, you know, there's so much greater enriched [01:11:00] experiences that once you find yourself, there are no limits.
And so you need to embody what we speak of and that requires a method. And the sooner you get that out of the way and you start just resonating on your true elixir, immortal, elixir resonance, magical things take place. And that's just through conditioning. I hate to break it to people. It's like all this powerful sensory perception will be yours.
It's not limited to one person who has one gift. You just have to go through the conditioning process. And that's where people freak out because once they start to turn the energetic architecture on all bits are off. I, I attribute it. It's, it's quite simple. Imagine you're driving down the street in your car.
I tell you to pull over to the side of the road. You get out of your car, but your, your car is still idling on the side of the road. Once you activate the ong [01:12:00] within yourself, the merging of way down and knee down, you have a process that doesn't require your participation. So that system is always on, it's always operating, it's always emanating, and that's where your resonance precedes you.
When you walk into a room like the old expression, you are. Your, uh, reputation procedure, your resonance procedure, people just instantly get poured into that stream that you are emanating as your baseline default self as you acquire it, so you can go to immortal DAOs rights. Furthermore, you can, uh, uh, find, uh, me on the way one 20 six.com.
I have a podcast way, 1 26, um, podcast on YouTube. If you're looking to up your. Chemical processing. You are not so interested in specific DAOs path. I developed an app through lasu that is basically, [01:13:00] um, a zero to a hero where you master your emotions in, uh, a, a short order within, there's two years worth of training, but most people that are, you know, someone that are sick and tired of being entrapped in their mind, prison, they'll have a mastery of their own emotions within nine, nine weeks, where you will literally move your emotions like an icon on a computer screen.
That's where people want to be. They want to meet that moment and find that power, and it's all for you to discover. That's the exciting part, as I would always tell people, we have Yes, it's a, life is exciting when you, when you really, uh, free yourself, you know, outside of the confines and then see things as really working for us. 'cause I think everything kind of, uh, reflects to us what we need to open up. But, um, it's wonderful to have teachers like you and having really that method because I think that that's where people don't really know where to begin.
Michelle: So, [01:14:00] thank you so much Ing. I really am excited to have you back 'cause I, of course, I have so many things to talk about, but we can only limit it to, you know, the time that we have. But thank you so much for coming on today.
San: Thank you for inviting me. I was very, very grateful to be here.

Michelle Oravitz 2/2/26 Michelle Oravitz 2/2/26

Ep 372 When the Body Speaks: Trauma, the Nervous System, and Mental Health Recovery

Mental health and fertility are deeply connected. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Christina Bjorndal explores how the nervous system, stress, trauma, and thought patterns influence mental wellbeing and reproductive health, and why healing requires a whole-person, mind-body approach beyond labels and diagnoses.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by ( @drchrisbjorndal), a naturopathic doctor, author, and mental health expert, for a powerful and deeply honest conversation about healing beyond diagnoses.

Dr. Christina shares her personal journey through depression, bipolar disorder, suicide attempts, and recovery, and how those experiences shaped her integrative approach to mental health and whole-person healing. Together, we explore the profound connection between the mind, body, nervous system, and spirit, and why true healing requires more than symptom management.

In this episode, we talk about how trauma, nutrition, gut health, stress, and unexamined thought patterns can influence mental health and fertility. Dr. Christina also explains why labels can be limiting, how epigenetics shapes our health beyond genetics, and why cultivating self-compassion and safety in the body is foundational to healing.

This conversation offers hope, perspective, and practical insights for anyone navigating mental health challenges, fertility struggles, or the pressure to “fix” themselves instead of understanding what their body is asking for.

Key Takeaways:

Mental health diagnoses describe symptoms, not root causes
Healing requires addressing the nervous system, not just the mind
Thoughts directly influence physiology through stress hormones and immune function
Epigenetics explains how environment, trauma, and lifestyle shape health outcomes
Digestion and nutrition depend on nervous system regulation, not just food choices
Self-compassion and self-acceptance are essential, not optional, for healing
Hope and possibility are powerful forces in recovery and fertility journeys

Connect with Margaret Cali:

Website: https://drbjorndal.com
Instagram: @drchrisbjorndal
Facebook: Dr. Christina Bjorndal
Twitter/X: @drbjorndal
YouTube: Christina Bjorndal

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

[00:00:00]
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Dr Christina
Christina: Thanks so much for having me.
Michelle: excited to have you so I met Dr Christina on a summit that we did and I really, really connected with your message, so I knew I had to have you on 'cause I felt like we had a lot in common and we, you had actually walked people through a heart connection, heart and womb, and I was like, okay, she's speaking my language. But I know you also have a lot of, experience in this kind of field and the science aspect of it. And and I would love for the listeners to hear your origin story. 'cause I always like to start with an origin story. I.
Christina: yes. it's important 'cause I, I actually haven't always been a naturopathic doctor and it's my own struggles with my mental health that brought me to become one. So in, in a nutshell, I was diagnosed with depression and that. I was prescribed medications and I then [00:01:00] actually swung into a psychotic episode while on those medications.
And so then I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type one. And what I did with that is I was like. Well, that's not happening to me. Like, oh, what's this? And I'll, and I'll preface that with, I am adopted, so there is no ability for me to look to my left or my right to verify the truth of that. So I didn't accept the genetic theory, and I, and I do subscribe to the theory that genes load the gun.
Yes, but lifestyle pose the trigger.
Michelle: Hmm. I love that saying. That's a great way to say it.
Christina: Yeah, it does. And so, I was walking through the world with this mask though, which is not good in the sense that I was, playing the role or persona that I had it all together. And, but yet I was really struggling on the inside. And then, I had a suicide attempt that left me in a coma with kidney failure and I was on dialysis and told I would need a kidney transplant.
And that was really my, my origin story, if you will. Like, that was the rock bottom point for [00:02:00] me. And there was a, I was given a book to read about, by Maryanne Williamson called A Return to Love.
Michelle: I love that book.
Christina: Yes. And there's a beautiful quote about surrender and learning to, accept ourselves. And I realized that, goodness me, I'm walking through the world.
With a lot of stigma and shame about this diagnosis that I don't really understand, and a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, had an eating disorder. And anyway, here we are. been on this journey of regaining my mental health, using a mind, body, spirit The approach I was using at the time was not, I just was medication upon medication and I wasn't getting better. That's really important to note, right? So anyway, so eventually I went back to school 'cause I was working in the corporate world and I reported to A CEO and I had a lot of stress and, and I went back to school to become a naturopathic doctor back to high school at 33.
And then here we are.
Michelle: So what got you into naturopathic medicine? Was that, I mean, part of [00:03:00] trying to figure out really what gets you better, more naturally, like, how did you specifically
Christina: Yeah, so that same best friend, we gotta, we gotta really love our best friends or, so she was a nutritionist and we, we had gone to university together, we raced on the UBC track team together and she was said to me, Chris, why don't you see a naturopathic doctor? And, and so I did, and interestingly enough, her and I and another colleague were gonna start an organic baby formula business.
And it was through the pursuit of that that I ended up at a Orthomolecular medicine mental health regained public forum. And I learned about a doctor named Dr. Abraham Hoffer. He's. Quite famous in Canada. He's passed away now, but he worked with Linus Pauling, who won two Nobel Prizes. One of them on his research on vitamin C.
So [00:04:00] I, and he was a psychiatrist, but he was nutritionally oriented. So I went to both of these practitioners, my, my naturopathic doctor, and the Dr. Hoffer, a nutritionally oriented psychiatrist. And lo and behold. Starting their protocol. had my first year where I was free from depression and anxiety, which I had not had in the 15 years.
Michelle: Wow,
Christina: Hmm. 15 years. Prior to that, I would, 70% or more of my time was spelled spent in a depressive state. And then I was like, okay, there's gotta be something to what these guys are doing. And the key thing for me was. me two years to get in to see Dr. Larry Chan, and a long time also to get in, to get, not as much time but wait time anyways to get into Dr.
Hoffer and he was 80 years old. And I'm thinking, my goodness, I know there's lots of people struggling here. Why is it taking so long for me to get help now? You, you know, when they, when I made [00:05:00] the appointment with Dr. Chan, I was like, they said it's two year wait. And I'm like, well, I'll make the appointment.
I don't know if I'm gonna be here. You know, like,
Michelle: Wow
Christina: and indeed I did have a second suicide attempt, you know, while I was getting, trying to get myself landed and grounded in, in this is in some other way to support myself. And he was, he's a acupuncturist first and foremost, you know? So then I realized, you know what, I had a great job with paying very well and I wasn't happy
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Eventually, even when I became happy with the supplement support, I wasn't passionate about what I was doing. And so I wanted to make a difference in people's lives, and that's one of the reasons I made the change.
Michelle: That's pretty remarkable. What a story. And I, you know, it's interesting 'cause I'm listening to you and I'm thinking kind of similar. I have a similar path. I mean, I didn't have, I didn't have it as.
[00:06:00] Severe you know, like I, I, but I definitely suffered from depression and anxiety, like when I was younger and growing up and I had, I definitely had anxiety.
I never even knew I had anxiety. Now I look back and I'm like, I had
anxiety like I had fears and I. I even used to do things like a little bit OCD where I'd have to like tap things in a
certain way which would mean that things are gonna go well versus not go well. And so I know that I had some kind of anxiety and I didn't feel safe in my body.
I mean, and I, and I look back, I went and I went to an acupuncturist. One of the things I noticed was that not only were my symptoms, my physical symptoms resolving, but I started feeling better. Mentally. and then I also look back and I used to eat gluten and I went gluten-free and I found that I was less bloated, but then I realized like I'm less
anxious on a gluten-free diet.
So there's such a physical mental
[00:07:00] connection you know, you're treating your physical body. But, and we had talked about this, and this is I think one of the reasons why I really felt connected with you and like. Really your background and how you approach things is, is that there is such a somatic aspect of the mind, you know, like the, the experience in the body impacts the mind so much more.
And it's interesting because many people, I think just conventionally think that there is this separation, like the mind can't affect the body. But also the body can't affect the mind. So it's kind of this bi-directional relationship and really addressing it like you, you were saying physically and through diet actually made a difference on your mind.
Christina: what a concept.
Michelle: Yeah, it's
Christina: and I think it's really lovely to look at the shift and the changes that have happened. So when I was initially struggling, struggling, we'll say starting in 1980, [00:08:00] you know, it's, that's been a long, you know, several years, right? 45 years if I'm doing the math properly, and to see the.
Difference in, because there was, there was no conversation in 1980 about the microbiome, let alone any directional relationship. Right. Like, like you were saying back in 1980, it was deemed almost separate. You know, like we just were living from the neck up and we might as well just have little knees under our chins and, 'cause nobody was talking about,
Michelle: This
Christina: nobody's talking about the body.
Right. And, and so, but thanks to the work of, people like Steven Porges and Bessel VanDerKolk and, Gabor Matte and, and many others, I wish I could name some women. I should. Let's name some women, like, molecules of emotion, Candace pert. You know, there's such, such advances now, so we understand that there is, it's bi-directional.
So, and now I think the conversation should be in the research. If it's not, well, what, you know. Which microbes actually, 'cause the microbes [00:09:00] affect this way, and then that affects this way. So, and, and we don't really have to get caught up in, and this is where I get a little frustrated with, with Western science, and they're always so focused on what's the one cause or the one thing.
And, and you know, we're multifactorial beings and so, know, if you think about a tree, it doesn't have one root, right?
Michelle: a
hundred percent I love that. I love that. Like that's such a
Christina: A good visual, right? There's this massive ecosystem underneath the ground that we don't
see. We just see this beautiful tree. Now, the, that, who knows the root system could be diseased, and that's an akin to wearing this mask that we walk around with a big smile on our face when we are, when we're thinking about awful, doing awful things to ourselves.
But we have to be bringing these. Conversations into the open air about what's going on between here and here in terms of the thoughts or the emotions, and be able [00:10:00] to be vulnerable and authentic. And that is a shift that I, you know, we can thank Brenny Brown for that because I, you know, Oprah Winfrey because, oh, no, no, because back and again, 1980, boy, oh boy.
You know, don't say anything. Don't tell anybody. That's what I was told actually by my psychiatrist. Oh, you know what, Chris, do not tell anybody that you have this condition because and, and so I'm like, well, what do you mean? You know, like, then I walked outta that, that office feeling bad and dark and awful and, and
Michelle: like
Christina: she, and rejected and like a dark, like, don't you dare disclose 'cause people are not gonna like you.
And you know, wow. Like, that's awful. Right.
Michelle: Yeah. And little did we know that I think that so many other people are feeling the same way quietly. It's like, you too. You know? Are you also feeling this way? Like, you know, and everybody's afraid to talk about it. And you were right. I used to watch [00:11:00] Oprah Winfrey and she really helped me a lot growing up because. She put a name to it. She spoke about it, and she spoke about these topics that a lot of people wouldn't speak
about
Christina: right. I mean, I remember when she decided to do, at the end of every episode, a bit of a conversation about the soul. She got a lot of flack about that, but she can pursued and it's important. Nobody was discussing the soul or the spirit or, you know, anything like that. So I think that it's really important that we understand that, you know, we as humans, yes, the physical level, don't get me wrong, I mean, that's where I started very important.
But I'll tell you the one downfall with, with, i'm gonna, I'll take ownership of this. I wasn't disclosing to my doctors that I had an eating disorder as if you're a clinician listening to this, you need to be asking the right questions to the patient. And then it's all about creating that [00:12:00] safety in that therapeutic relationship so that the patient, even if you ask the right question, they will feel safe to answer it as well.
And so the sup and the reason I wanna mention that is because I did start on a lot of supplements, but they were propping me up and filling the nutritional gaps from my horrible diet, right? So I was a, I was a vegetarian eating no vegetables, so I was a carpentarian and a sugar addict.
Michelle: Yeah.
yeah. No, that's true. It's true. I, I went through that myself and if you don't really know what to eat and you become a vegetarian, you can be, you can really deplete yourself
Christina: big time
on so many nutrients that are so important for these pathways to work in our body. So I really like, I really wanna emphasize that too, because. I think one of the bad reputations that the functional medicine industry has is over supplementing and, and as a naturopathic doctor, I am not wanting to do that.
My goal is not for you to be [00:13:00] on these supplements. My goal is for you to obviously resolve the symptom picture that is presenting for you using modalities that are available to me. Not have you on 50 million supplements. That's not, that's not the end game here.
Michelle: Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting that you talk about how like there's so many, we're so multifaceted and sometimes we do get so hung up on the studies, and of course the studies can give us a lot of information, but there's so much behind studies. I mean, there's companies behind studies.
You don't know how it's skewed. I mean, there's so many other variables to the studies that it's hard to really decipher. Based on all of these different parts, while those parts can be really beneficial, I mean, there's one study that actually showed that, mental disorders were very much linked to the gut microbiome, and that's fascinating information.
It confirms what we, you know, we're, we're looking into, but we get too hung [00:14:00] up on it. Then we stop using. And I know that you also have a spiritual perspective and, and that intuition, when we stop connecting to that intuition and stop acknowledging that we do have a spirit. And that's what I love about Chinese medicine is they do actually acknowledge
the spirit of a person and that's part of the health. And so when we acknowledge that and see that there's something more vast, and yes, we can. Rely on studies, and yes, we can use it as close to the puzzle, you know, or pieces to the puzzle, but if we solely and completely ignore the aspect of us that is intelligent and that can connect to other things that have not yet been proven. Then that, I mean, can give us so much info. We can actually download information. I know this 'cause I'm a meditator. I know that I've downloaded information and every meditator will say the same thing. They understand that it's real. because you can't know [00:15:00] that until you're in that state of such deep receptivity that you're able to download information and it your body
Christina: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the. The simple statement that I love to say to people is, well, who is the teacher of science? Like, who is the teacher of science and its nature? Right? And, and so you know, we, of course, but, but some of the things that we study, like for example, just before I came on this interview with you, I was researching for this, my new book that I'm writing about my, about my eating disorder journey.
And there was a study about sleep and I, and I was thinking to myself. Wow. Like we really have to, we really have to sort of state the obvious here to people like,
Michelle: This is
Christina: did you need some sleep? Like, I'm like, okay. You know, so it just for me,
Michelle: All you need is one really bad night of sleep and you'll know that you need sleep because of how you feel. You
Christina: but I was like, how much money did they spend on this study? You know? I mean, of course, you know, [00:16:00] so sometimes I think. Really are we, do we really need to study everything under do you get what I'm trying to say?
Michelle: It's true.
A hundred
Christina: but the fascinating piece, you know, of course the microbiome is very fascinating interest and interesting and, and a sidebar about that for myself is I did a year of antibiotics when I was 14 to treat acne and.
Right. Yeah. And then my eating disorder started the year after, and then the me, and then the depression, anxiety, you know, it all, it all unfolded. Now is so interesting. And I think this just highlights the importance again, of asking the right questions. And one of them is, when do you think things started for you?
You know? And in my case, I just said 14, but I'm gonna go back even further to the in utero experience, right? It starts in utero for people And
Right. And if we have to bring in this idea that Western Medicine is trying to prove, probably right this second as we're [00:17:00] speaking of intergenerational trauma,
Michelle: Mm-hmm
Christina: there are studies about this done already, so
Michelle: there are, and I think part of them were Holocaust and, you know how you have,
Christina: well, even
Michelle: our DNA,
Christina: they did a study
Michelle: The DNA would have
information because we're evolving, so it, carries information so that you learn from your parents or whatever they had to learn, and sometimes with that learning comes the memory of
Christina: right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the in utero experience is, is so important because when you were an egg in your, in the developing fetus of your mother, in her ovary, you were there. As a
single cell egg, in, in your, her, in your grandmother when she was carrying your mother. So people, sometimes you have to slow down and get your head around what, what I just said.
But it's, it's very important because I am adopted and I [00:18:00] have been so fascinated with this nature versus nurture argument, and because western medicine for. Many years, was very focused on the whole, the gene. Everything's about the genetics. And, and this is where, where I mentioned earlier that, you know, it's, it's actually epigenetics that's important.
And the work of Bruce Li Lipin, bringing that to the forefront and concept of psycho neuroimmunology. And in my own case. Whenever you ask a question, and the first question I asked after that psychotic event, which was very, alarming to me, and, and of course the people around me was, why did that happen and how did that happen?
And the answer I got was, well, it's genetic, nothing you can do. And I'm like, really?
Michelle: Yeah
Christina: No nothing because I don't, I don't wanna have, I don't really wanna experience that again, thank you very much. So there better be something else I can do other than the take drugs. 'cause [00:19:00] here we are, you know? And so I got told that there's nothing, nothing you can do, which means there's no cure.
But I didn't accept that. And what, what breaks my heart is that right as we were talking, people are being told that right now in a doctor's office.
Michelle: People listening to this, I mean, same thing, but on different, it's just
different levels different types of
Christina: And, and if we bring it to the conversation to fertility, how many women are told you're not gonna be able to conceive? And, and, and it's like, who are we to say
Michelle: It happens all the time. Like I can't even count, I can't even count it
Christina: I know. And that should not be like, I think as clinicians, our role is to bring. Hope and possibility and understanding of how the body works. And there is, I mean, this is, there's reasons and explanations for your, your symptom picture and your suffering, and we just, and if you aren't feeling better, I feel that it's because there's, we, somebody hasn't investigated, there's a [00:20:00] stone that hasn't been turned over yet.
Michelle: I agree. I, I really do. I
Christina: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle: And it's just a matter of hope. Hope in the possibility because I think even doctors need to have hope and the possibility for
their patients and I think that when they don't it. Oftentimes does translate into the consciousness of the patient,
Christina: Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's been, um, you know, a beautiful journey to not only be able to then regain my mental health, but also to be able to help other people with, whether it's their fertility journey or out of depression or anxiety, even bipolar disorder, whatever it might be.
Because remember that these labels and my, book that I love to share about. Is called beyond the label. 10. Yeah. 10 steps to improve your mental.
Yeah. And, and the thing with it is that the label explains a constellation of symptoms, [00:21:00] but it doesn't tell me how you got there.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Christina: explanation is always rooted in some earlier experience that predates the diagnosis.
So it's, there's so much to us and there's, and that, that I'm saying that. Not from, for, for people to take it like, oh goodness. But to take it from a place of like, this is, this is where the answers lie, so it's the answer's there, we just have to figure it out. That's all.
Michelle: And it gives a lot of hope, like I said, and it's, you know what I love about talking to naturopaths. Is that they're very similar
minded I, their approach is very similar to acupuncturists, where we're always looking for
that root So rather than saying this is a symptom, it just is what it is. There's, we're always kind of digging, trying to figure out.
There's always, it's almost like a very, uh solution oriented field. And that's how I feel like there, that there is no one way to treat anything. And because I think that that is what. Gives way [00:22:00] to more possibility. If we know that there's not one way to treat anything and that not every person's the same, then there's less likely that we're gonna perceive our patients as a
statistic
Christina: That's right.
Michelle: and and that's where we start to dig and dig and dig and take
Christina: Yes. Yeah. And, many naturopathic doctors, depending on the school, they, they go to, and it's important that they go to a accredited program because I know that in the United States, they, not all states are regulated or licensed. So there are people that have done, haven't done proper programs, and, but in some of, like in my schooling in Canada, acupuncture is a modality that we are taught.
And, are licensed to use. So, but not all the schools have acupuncture. some of that's a separate four year program,
Michelle: Yes. Yeah, I have heard of that. but for that, you know, for the reason that there's just so,
such similarities in the medicines and I think the big thing is how we [00:23:00] view the body as being so forgiving. We really understand that the body's incredibly intelligent and that the body is self-healing. And it's just asking for something.
It needs something or it needs to remove something that's in the
way And and so there's always kind of that almost detective work that we do to try to like unravel and figure out what's going on. And as far as, the mind body connection, what are some of the biggest things or ahas that you found throughout?
And I know that this could be very vast, but like what are some of the big ones that come to mind?
Christina: Yeah. Well, I first, I just wanna add on one thing to what you said about adding things or removing things, and one of the things that we talk about in our. Osteopathic medicine is obstacles to cure. And, and they're, you know, so an example of an obstacle to, to cure, and I'm not saying this from a place of judgment, I'm just, it's just an observation is, is actually I can share a, a about a case.
I had this woman come to see me for depression and Lyme [00:24:00] disease but she was a very heavy smoker. And so at some point we got, you know, I worked, first and foremost was the depression and, and the Lyme. I wasn't very versed in Lyme. This is probably 15 years ago. Anyway, I found a colleague who was, and so she was helping her with that, and I was helping her with her mental health.
But then at some point I had to say, you know, I need to have a conversation with you about smoking because this is, this is an obstacle to cure. And anyway.
Michelle: Hmm. Yeah,
Christina: Yeah. And she was, so at this point, she was very focused on the Lyme. And then I said, you know, I'm really concerned about this chronic cough here that you have going on.
Could you please get that checked out? Because I didn't have, I didn't have access to diagnostics myself. I have to refer for that. Anyway, she got, so she, she went and she, she did a, chest x-ray and she had lung cancer. Yeah. And she died. so I remember saying to her like, we do not need to be focused on your Lyme disease.
We need to be focused on, so this is, it's a very good [00:25:00] example of an obstacle to cure. And that that obstacle, obviously, it, it took her life.
Michelle: Wow.
Christina: So it's, it's a, a very empowering story to acknowledge that we, we do have to have these conversations about things and they're hard conversations because, you know, it, we we're going into the area of addictions now, and, you know, so, mm-hmm.
Michelle: it's interesting you say that because like, what I find oftentimes is people get very, strict about their diet. They're strict about their supplements, they're strict about everything in their life, how to exercise, what to do, everything's a plus, you know, like down the line. However, though they're so focused on that, that they forget, you know, and I do think that there is an addiction to stress.
Christina: Yes,
Michelle: We don't realize that, but we can actually get addicted to
stress hormones, and Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about this often. We can get really addicted to 'em. It can make [00:26:00] us feel like we're in control. It's a fake sense of control, but it's not
real and it's not really helping us. So it's like we can do all of these other things, but until we address that. Foundation. That's kind of like the sabotage of everything else. We're not really
Christina: that's right.
Michelle: better.
Christina: Yeah, I mean, I, I will acknowledge within myself as somebody who is this type a overachiever, perfectionist type that you described. I mean, I, I had to let her go a long time ago because it's like, okay. Uh, But you do speak to, again, a very important point that I wanna talk about in my, in my new book, which is, is this journey to ultimately.
Acceptance and, and our industry, this industry of that, we were calling the health industry right now from a nutrition perspective, just that one modality. There is so much ad adversarial conversation going on. You've got carnivores on the one extreme and vegans on the other and everything in between.
[00:27:00] And I, I said to my best friend, I feel like the nutrition industry has bipolar disorder. Like there's just so much swinging and, and so. The conversation that I wanna bring to the table is who's, who's actually looking at the reasons behind why you wanna have a perfect body and where's that coming from, and why are we not actually accepting ourselves?
and are we creating more problems as clinicians by saying, cut out wheat, dairy, sugar, eggs, corn, inflammatory foods, and dairy. Are we, what, what kind of obsessiveness are we creating with? And I'm somebody who has been looking at this for a long time. So I went on a tangent to say, because in terms of Joe Dispenza, who I, I value and, love studying his work, I even had to say to myself, man, am I addicted to to drama?
when my life gets steady, do I actually go looking for something to make it unsteady?
That was a big [00:28:00] observation and, So anyway, I, we could talk, we, we probably are gonna have to have another call here because I'm like, we gotta go on that.
So, but I wanna answer your question about the mind body relationship and what were some of the a ahas for, for myself, and there is so many, but I think the biggest one was actually after my, so I've had three suicide attempts in total. And the last one was getting to be long ago, you know, as we continue on in time.
But it was in 2009, so it wasn't like it was, it wasn't last week obviously, but it was while I was practicing as a clinician, and I'm gonna mention this because this is, we, you, you work in the fertility space that it was in a postpartum state and, but it was so This conversation about mental health is important for every age group and every stage of our lives, but in particularly very critical in the postpartum window.
And I'm gonna extend the window though, because I don't think 12 months. I [00:29:00] think at the 12 month mark when they say you're out of the woods, so to speak, you're not, you're just getting into the woods. You're just getting started. So I really think the first five years postpartum is when women struggle, not within the first 12 months.
So I mean, you can struggle in that timeframe, but for me it was anyway, a little bit delayed, if you will. And then I know science, people listening might argue, we say to me, well that's not postpartum, Chris. But in my mind it really was, in that window. It was a very delicate, anyway, so my point being that.
The person who helps me the most was a colleague, another, another naturopathic doctor, who was the first person to teach me that. I do not need to believe every thought that I think.
Michelle: Mm.
Christina: So your thoughts create neuropeptides. Your neuropeptides affect the hormone, the glands, which produce [00:30:00] hormones. Then if we're talking about the adrenal gland, that produces cortisol, but there's also epinephrine and norepinephrine and, and those are more neurotransmitter based.
so let's just speak with cortisol, 'cause many people are familiar with that. That then feeds back up to the brain and says to the nervous system, stress or No stress, danger or safety, sympathetic or parasympathetic, and. So this is called psycho neuroimmunology, which is a fancy word to mean your thoughts affect your physiology.
So when he said, so he taught me this four R approach, which is the first R is recognize what you're thinking. Like, take the thought out. If this pen represents a thought, take it out. Look at it and ask, are you serving me right now? Are you sabotaging me? Are you hurting or helping? Are you inner critic based or inner cheerleader, bully, or friend?
Like What side are you on here? [00:31:00] What team are you playing for? You know, the stress team or the safety team? So most of my thoughts, if not 100%, 110% were inner critic, sympathetic, all about how, what a horrible human being I am. So then, so once you've recognized that you are having thoughts based in problematic thinking, then your next sec second step is to refrain from following them.
This is where meditation is so helpful. So I'm not saying to suppress anything, but I'm just saying we don't carry on the conversation. We just set the conversation down and then we, the third step is we relax into the body. We take two deep breaths, we connect with nature, we get out of our heads, if you will, because.
The egoic mind is a very busy place. It's busy in, in, in my head. It's very busy and there's a lot of traffic that's being directed, right? And it's like we need a little bit of a moment of a reprieve here. Just a little, little heartbeat of stillness. And you [00:32:00] get that if you give the egoic mind a job, you say, Hey man, look at that tree outside and then, oh, okay.
The ego, it does ultimately wanna serve you. But the problem with it is, it's. Space in the past, often in protecting you from the pain of the past. And we don't need that belief anymore now in this present moment. And so by doing the breath, then the four step is to reso resolve to repeat those first three steps over and over and over and over and over.
So when Dr. Hughes taught me this, I said to him, well, I, I'm gonna be doing this all day long, right? And he's like, perfect.
So.
Michelle: great
Christina: it's
a
practice
and just like we go to the gym, right, to, to get a nice toned bicep or do sit ups get a six pack, we need to go to spiritual gym.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Yeah. And so listen, and I remember saying to him, well, you're not gonna prescribe me some St.
John War. Like, come on man. Like, you just want me to, what is this gonna, this, you know, I was super negative. I was even like, [00:33:00] this isn't gonna help me. Which in and of itself is a problematic thought,
Michelle: Yeah. That's so interesting. It's all
Christina: Yep. And so that process, which I've now expanded because I'm I, you know, I'm still this recovering overachiever, I call it the seven Rs now, but really the first four, those are the first four.
So recognize, refrain, relax, repeat. The fifth step I add is related to what I was talking about in terms of psycho neuroimmunology. So we do wanna take that problematic thought we recognized and see if we can say something. Opposite. That is helpful because now this, I used to roll my eyes at people who would say, say to me, Hey, Chris, change your thoughts.
Change your life, or do an affirmation. I would be like, roll my eyes and probably stomp outta the room because I felt like people were implying that I was intentionally causing my issues with. You know, on purpose, but this isn't the [00:34:00] case. We have a subconscious mind, and it is constantly dialoguing, and we're not always aware.
But when you can bring that into your conscious awareness, then from that place you can create a new empowering belief that will carry you forward. And this is, you know, this is, you have to remember, I, I, when I'm listening to myself talk, I'm like, gosh, Chris, this sounds very simple. And honestly it is.
However, I mean, I've been doing this for. Daily since 2009, committed to this practice. So, and I know that if you commit to acknowledging what you're thinking and seeing if you can shift your thinking. The reason why this is so important is it shifts your physiology and this is what you were talking about.
So now we no longer are on the cortisol kick.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Christina: we're gonna be more on the parasympathetic. And I just wanna say one more thing and, and tie this up because we were talking about nutrition a moment ago. [00:35:00] One of my huge pet peeves about the health industry is everybody's focused on what diet is perfect for you, but nobody is talking about the state in which you are in when you're eating that food and digestion.
My friend
is a parasympathetic state and most of us are in a sympathetic state.
Michelle: Totally. It's so funny 'cause my husband sometimes he will like run out to work and he works in the ER and he'll take something and eat it in the car. I'm like, don't do that. You gotta just, even if it's like wake up five minutes earlier, just give yourself time to sit down and eat. Because when you're doing that, so like, you know, the fight or flight or the sympathetic versus parasympathetic. Sympathetic isn't always necessarily like high stress, it could be just high alert. So driving, you're typically gonna go into
sympathetic mode. That doesn't mean that you're like completely stressed out either, but you're like very focused. And what does that do? It, it shuts down the
digestion like you just said.
And [00:36:00] so it's not great to
eat in the car
Christina: No, And I think it's, I think this as humans, I mean, you know, the ER is a very busy, you know, it's a very busy place and, and it's also gonna be. You know, high, probably a higher amped up vibration wise, but it doesn't necessarily have to be stressful. Right. And I think, and the thing, the thing is that we've become used to, I think as humans, multitasking constantly.
And you know, and the thing is that's not actually research shows, coming back to the research word actually shows that it's not, you know, it, it's better to be doing, if you're gonna be eating like, well, let's just eat
Michelle: Yeah,
Christina: Most people are chomp, chomp, swallow. They're eating on the run, eating while they're driving, going through drive-throughs and eating and digestion starts with when it doesn't start.
When you put the food in your mouth, it starts you cooking the food, right?
Michelle: yeah. Smelling, looking, seeing visual, like you could see it. It's so interesting 'cause I started noticing when we go to restaurants. Every [00:37:00] time my husband and both of us look at the food, look at the menu, we start to salivate. 'cause I, I, I hear him swallowing and I'm like, you're salivating too. Like as we're talking about the food that we're about to order and we're just reading it off the menu, we're
starting to salivate So it's crazy. But it's like the mental, like as soon as we know we're about to eat, that's how we salivate. Which is, like you said, it's so true. Like being mindful
with it Starts to make you salivate and why saliva is so important, because it has all these enzymes that help you digest. So it starts in, you
Christina: that's right. But it starts with a sense of smell, that sense of signal up to the brain that then sets a signal on the vagus nerve that, Hey, guess what? Stomach food's gonna be coming, so let's get ready for it. But the thing is, when we just unwrap and then down the hatch, the, the stomach's like, Hey, what, what the hell man?
What the heck? Vagus nerves, whatcha doing buddy? Yeah, whatcha doing man? You're fired. Right? So it's like, so, and then, you know, we have this [00:38:00] sequi of symptoms. Digestive people have bloating and, and digestion and heartburn and constipation. None of which we should accept is acceptable because none of it is.
It's all, but, but what I find is people aren't focusing on what we're talking about. They're focusing on, oh, well eat more fiber or drink more water. And that may be so, absolutely. I'm not discounting that, but who's saying to you? Tell me about your, how you, how you, what your stress is like and, and how, how are you prepping your meals?
Michelle: ' It's so interesting because people ignore that
aspect of ourselves because it's hard
to quantify Yeah.
It's pretty fascinating. I could talk to you for hours.
Christina: Well, I'll just have to,
Michelle: I think I might have to have you back, honestly, because we can like get into all kinds of conversations. But you're right though. I mean really with digestion and I think a lot of these things I always find that people will not, it's so hard to really quantify, especially if you're already in this, a [00:39:00] mental state.
Just like you said, like don't believe your thoughts, you
become your thoughts You identify with your thoughts, you really believe that that is just the only way because you're already in it. And I'm not sure, was it Einstein that said you can't solve a problem with the same state of mind that
created it
Christina: That's right.
Michelle: Well, I mean, if you're already in the state of mind, it's so hard to see. And so that's one of the reasons why somatic work can be so effective. And even just getting into your breath and your body sensations. 'cause you kind of like create a space. It's creating space between the thoughts and your body and your sensation being in the present moment. And a lot of what you're saying is really what Dr. Bruce Lipton talks about, about how our Petri dish becomes our blood and all the stress hormones that
come with it. And just a quick note, for people who don't know what epigenetics means,
because they're hearing it maybe for the first time, can you explain [00:40:00] why that's important?
How our genes can.
Be impacted by our
Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So, the, this is interesting. So they've done studies on identical twins. So identical twins who are separated at birth due to adoption. So different environments. So if everything is genetic, these are identical twins. Genetically, you would expect them to have the same outcomes. Health outcomes, disease.
Patterning conditioning, and they don't. And so this is where the research came from this, this concept that actually the genes are, the blue can be the blueprint, but they're not your destiny. And it's about the environment, IE, the trauma that you may have experienced, the nutrition that you may have been.
Given the, the other piece is this chemical component, the environment. So there's many, many chemicals in the environment. In fact, in umbilical cord blood, they did a study [00:41:00] across 10 babies. They found 270 contaminants.
So we are being born Yeah. Envi already with our environmental cups maxed out. The minute we, we, we exit the womb.
Then we're, you know, we go into the, to the world. So what this idea of epigenetics means that, so the gene part is, like I said, it's the blueprint, but the switch that turns it on or off. So let's just say not the blueprint. 'cause that different, better analogy, the gene would be the light bulb, but the switch to turn it on or off.
Is the epigenetic piece. And these are the environmental factors that I was just talking about. So the nurturing that you received, whether you were had a trauma, any form of abuse, even big tea traumas or even little tea traumas, like somebody stealing your lunch every day at school. You know, I mean, me, I, I was bullied in, in school.
I mean, you know, they, I mean, bullied, okay. I say it was bullying, but, and then I'm shrugging my [00:42:00] shoulders. 'cause I'm like, well, was it, you know, basically they, they, they formed this, I hate Christina Club. But for someone with the high level of sensitivity that I came outta the womb with and the belief that I'm not liked or wanted, that was hurtful to me,
Michelle: Yeah Well that's it's so rele. It's so, um
Christina: relatable
Michelle: Not uh it's, there's a word. It basically is like a, it, it's, not relevant, where it depends on your, like
Christina: Well, actually, I'll give you a good example though about that. So that, that, that was, so that was, that was, this is actually, maybe, this is an example I would say in epigenetics. So for myself, because of my trauma wound and, and adoption is the only trauma where the adoptee. Is expected to be grateful. It's important to think about that.
Now some people take offense to that quote. But it's important to think about that because, anyway, so my point is that my son had the same experience in grade, in the same grade as [00:43:00] I did. They started an I, some little girl who probably had a crush on him, started an I hate Noah Club, and he came home from school and he told me that, and I, and I, my heart sank and I was like, and immediately flashback to my experience.
And then he said, but mom, it's totally fine. 'cause nobody joined
Michelle: Oh, wow. It's like break the chain. It just
Christina: and it didn't, it didn't phase him at all. And, and for me though, I would, I mean, I walked around that whole school year like with no friends, right. So it, it really, the impact that's a, that's a really good example.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Christina: two experiences. And epigenetics is, another way you could look at it is, is the influences that are outside of you that affect the inside of you, right?
But when you ingest the food, I mean, that gets inside of you. And that can affect and chemicals and everything from, and this is where, [00:44:00] let's, let's look at, let's look at cancer. Here's another big subject that people ex, I mean, I hear this all the time with mental health and cancer. You know, well, so and so has it, so I'm gonna get it.
And I'm like, no, you're not them. You're not your parents. And, and so, and a great example, my, so the family that I was adopted into, my grandmother and her siblings, there were six of them. Every single one of them. Had cancer and died of cancer every, all six of them. All six. No. So therefore, if it's all about genes, then you would expect every one of their offspring.
So my mother and her first cousins would all also get cancer and die from cancer. Well, ask me how many of them have got cancer and died from cancer? Zero. So it's not all about the genes.
Michelle: Yeah, it's not, and I, I actually think that the reason why, you will see things like [00:45:00] that happen where the kid, the kids get it or they have similar responses or symptoms. Is because of their environment as well. Their environment's the same like that. People don't realize that the trauma is the same.
The culture that they're growing up in is the same, the food is the same then, you know, so it's, so people don't really think about that aspect of the fact that
Christina: Like if it's run, you know, if there's something that's been going on for generations. Right. But this is where Yeah, we wanna, we wanna really understand that. Okay. But, but yes. What, what have you actually
changed? Yeah. What have you actually changed? And is it really genetic though? Right. So it's, again, it.
So, so very powerful because I also think it cause when we just, play the card, well, there's nothing I can do. It's just as in my genetic blueprint, then we, I sort of feel like we're being victims and we're defeatist, right? Because listen, I don't wanna be, I, I [00:46:00] really, and I don't mean this from, it's gonna sound negative the way I'm gonna say this.
I didn't wanna be on a mental health rollercoaster, swinging from depression to mania and feeling very unsettled and like I'm on this rollercoaster for my entire life. Like, that to me, did not seem like an option. So I wanted to learn, well, how else can I navigate my mental health so that I can feel a little bit more, stable and.
Living in a joyful way. And, and in the bottom, in the back of my book, I talk about 23 myths that I was told, things like I shouldn't have children because I'm gonna pass this condition on because it's genetic. Right. And I, I think, goodness.
Michelle: That's insane way of
living I mean, it's just so crazy 'cause you could say that about
Christina: Right. Well, and the thing is, it's very fear-based.
And when we were talking about sympathetic versus parasympathetic, and I was using words, different words to represent, two other words [00:47:00] I'd like to say are, or four other words is sympathetic. Another word is fear versus love and or ego versus soul. So we wanna always be asking the question, how can I move to to love?
If we're talking about suicide and mental health, I mean, if anyone has had suicidal ideations or is contemplating taking their life, I can tell you they're the furthest from love that they're gonna than they're ever gonna be. And my job as a clinician is how do I guide them back,
you know? And two important questions I ask every patient.
And I love, you know, people that are listening can answer these for themselves. But a scale of one to 10 for both, 10 being the best, how much do you love yourself? The second question is, and, and the second one to answer is, how much self-compassion do you have? And I've yet to have somebody say nine outta 10, nine or more, even eight or more for both outta 10.
I've yet to have a human, and it's been 20 years. I'm waiting for somebody, so,
Michelle: It's amazing because of your [00:48:00] story, I feel like you can help so many
more people than had you not gone through it. So it's so interesting how you don't wanna go through something like that, but because of that, it almost, it should you go down the path that you did. It initiates you into this incredible greater calling to help so many people.
And I feel like you're doing God's work. I mean, it, I think when you answer that call, it really is. It's incredibly profound because when people are going through that and they're speaking to you, knowing that you went through that so that you're not just kind of sitting there with your
degree just talking at them like they really understand that you walk through it, there's a different
sense of trust and and knowing that you understand them on a deeper level.
So I think that that's really remarkable.
Christina: you. It, it's, I've had to answer this question. I've been on both sides of, of that suicide conversation and I've, I've had to answer the question, well, [00:49:00] why am I still here? and, and how come, and listen. I mean, I'm not, I'm not condoning that as a as an answer because, 'cause here's my view.
Suicide is a temporary situation. It's a temporary situation. And, and, and, or sorry, like that, that the feeling that, that being in that dark cloud is temporary, but the decision to take your life is permanent.
Michelle: Yeah.
Christina: So it's a permanent solution to a temporary situation. But I, I wanna, you know, emphasize here that it isn't the solution.
And I think every, I just had a colleague who lost a, her, her son, at 18 la like two weeks ago now. Yeah. And, and I thank you. I mean, I just, I'm just dumbfounded because I, I work in this space. I, I, I dedicate my book to saving souls from suicide. You know, I'm getting a bit emotional and I'm like, I've met this person, this young soul, and I, it's sad, but at the same time, this is where my spiritual beliefs help me,
with these very difficult things that are hard to have answers for.
And, and I accept that I am, this is not [00:50:00] my, way to leave, you know? And, I would like to. I, I think that we, we need to be talking to young people more about what's really going on.
And I know for me, it started at that same age. You know, my, my suicidal ideation started at the same age, 18, 19. There's a lot of pressure on these young people, and I don't think it's the pressure's any different than when we, we were going through it. I just think that I mean there are, the pressure's not different, but the society is different, you know, with these things.
And I think, that, you know, your twenties is, is not a mental illness. Your twenties aren't a mental illness. Okay. But there's difficult, it's a difficult stage of life.
Michelle: it really is. And I think that, you were talking about the phones and the, there's so many aspects. I mean, you know, the the.
positive part is that you hear other people telling stories and you
realize you're not alone. That's like the one positive about the time that we're living in, that it's no longer secret.
And I know that it ha, it's same thing with fertility. Like 10 years ago, people weren't [00:51:00] talking about it as much
as they are now. And then people are starting to realize, oh, I'm not the only one. There's other people going
through this too. And I think that aspect of it is healing. On the other hand. We're constantly being bombarded with too much information.
Our nervous system's going haywire. There's
chaos It's almost a chaotic energy, and and we're not grounded enough. We're not able to like really get quiet and connect with our bodies the way, you know, the our bodies are able
to help us and connecting and getting quiet and becoming more conscious and aware of our thoughts because we're so like sucked into
this
Christina: right.
Michelle: which is. You know, our phones and devices and so yeah. I mean, I'm telling you, I can keep talking to you for hours. I think you're such a deep, minded person. You're really interesting to talk to. And you also have in Incre, like I just, I'm really amazed with how you're writing books about the, these things and really taking your information [00:52:00] and translating it to help so many people.
I really admire that. I, I have to say, and. I know that I'm gonna probably have you on again because
we can keep talking. But I really, really admire it and I really love, connecting with you as a professional
and as as a human, as a person. And I would love to know, for the listeners, how can people find you?
How can they find your
Christina: Yes,
Michelle: And uh
Christina: yeah, I mean, and that's a good segue from us talking about phones, but basically, yeah, and
Michelle: yes
Christina: I mean, you know, this, it's, it's, it is definitely, I think you highlight such an important point that there are positives with some of, some of these advances, but yet we do have to navigate just like every other addictive substance in our lives.
We, we really have to develop, you know, a relationship that's. In service of us truly. And so you can find me on those platform, you know, Instagram, Dr. Chris Bjorn and my website, you know, my last name is a bit challenging to spell, but you, you'll be in the show notes, right? Yeah,
Michelle: It'll be in the show notes. Yeah,
Christina: yeah, [00:53:00] yeah. So just, yeah, Instagram, Facebook, and, I just, that's it.
That's all I can handle. I mean, I, you know, I think I have a YouTube channel, my website, and then the books they are available on online platforms like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and in Canada, indigo or chapters, and. Yes. I mean, so grateful if people would check them out beyond the label, the Essential Diet.
Moving beyond a journal into Self-Discovery. And the fourth one is a compilation called From Shadows to Light, A Whole Human Approach to mental health.
Michelle: it Is that the one you're gonna
be working on What's your, your,
oh okay That's another one. Amazing. I I think I was just so impressed.
It's thank you. thank you. so much. Yes.
Really
Christina: And I, and I, I really, really love talking to you. I remember when we were doing the summit, I, and I was just like, when they asked a question, I'm just like, and you answered. I'm like, yep, exactly what, what Michelle said.
Michelle: Yeah, you could, you could tell when you meet what I call almost like soul tribe people, like people that you feel [00:54:00] immediate connection with, you speak the same language. it was immediate that I felt that with you. And then as, as soon as you start talking and I was like, I really need to get her on the podcast 'cause she's really interesting and
deep I'm like this is
Christina: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me.
Michelle: Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was such a
Christina: Take care.

Michelle Oravitz 1/26/26 Michelle Oravitz 1/26/26

Ep 371 From Burnout to Emotional Readiness: Healing the Fertility Journey with Margaret Cali

Fertility is not just a medical journey. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Fertility and Mindset Coach Margaret Cali shares her personal experience with miscarriage, PCOS, emotional burnout, and healing the nervous system before conceiving through IVF at age 40. This conversation explores why emotional readiness, self-compassion, and whole-body support are essential on the fertility journey.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Margaret Cali, a Fertility and Mindset Coach and founder of Cali Coaching. Margaret shares her deeply personal fertility journey, which began at age 25 and included miscarriage, PCOS, medication complications, emotional burnout, and years of feeling lost and disconnected from herself.

After stepping away from the relentless cycle of trying to conceive and focusing on healing her nervous system, mindset, and emotional wellbeing, Margaret went on to conceive successfully through IVF at age 40. Her story is a powerful reminder that fertility is not just a medical journey, it is an emotional, mental, and whole-body experience.

In this conversation, we explore what burnout during fertility really looks like, why emotional support is so often missing from fertility care, and how rebuilding your inner world can transform not only your fertility journey, but your life. Margaret also shares the tools that helped her heal and introduces her RISE Method, an emotional readiness approach designed to support women at every stage of trying to conceive.

Key Takeaways:

Fertility struggles affect the nervous system, identity, and emotional wellbeing, not just the body
Burnout can block your ability to receive, restore, and reconnect with yourself
Emotional healing is not time wasted, it is foundational to fertility and long-term wellbeing
Small, consistent shifts create powerful transformation over time
You don’t have to carry the emotional weight of fertility alone

Connect with Margaret Cali:

Website: https://www.margaretcali.com.au
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/margaretcali.au
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MCaliCoaching
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaret-cali-4bb936188/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@margaretcali
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@margaretcali
Email: mcalicoaching@gmail.com

To apply for Margaret’s program, click here.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

[00:00:00]
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Margaret. I am so excited to have you on.
Margaret: I'm so excited to be here, Michelle. Thank you for inviting me on.
Michelle: Of course. So Margaret is, um, really somebody who I absolutely love and have the pleasure to work with as one of my certification coaches certified, um, the wholesome fertility coach, and she's just one of the most nurturing sweet. Souls, uh, that I had the pleasure to meet. And I would love for you, Margaret, to share your story and how you got into fertility coaching.
Margaret: Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for that warm introduction. Well, my fertility journey is quite a long standing one. I started to try and conceive at 25 and like [00:01:00] everyone else thought it's gonna happen straight away. And it actually did. I fell pregnant straight away, but I miscarried. And then people were saying, oh, it's normal, you know, to miscarry.
Um, but I felt really a lot of pain during that time, like anyone else with a loss, Then I tried to conceive again after a couple of months and I conceive. And you know how you wait a year, you go to the doctors, they say, wait a year. So I waited a year and still nothing happened. So then I went to explore what was happening, and that's when I eventually got diagnosed with PCOS. That also led to the gynecologist giving me medication that led to me, um, getting a growth where I [00:02:00] had to have, um, it removed and it was a huge growth. So basically it was just a cyst.
Michelle: A cyst. Okay. Do you remember what medication was? Um, maybe Clomid.
Margaret: it was climate.
Michelle: Okay.
Margaret: but later on then at that stage, was already depleted, but I, um, decided to go and get a second opinion. Uh, you know, sometimes you have to follow your gut. And I went to get a second opinion and the first thing that the other gynecologist said to me was, have you had your husband checked as well? Oh, my husband was with us. Um, have you been checked and. We said no, being sort of ignorant to the fact that obviously both parties should be checked and then when my husband got checked, he had issues as well.
So that [00:03:00] was, you know, then discovered.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: Basically, um, by that stage. So, you know, it was years that had gone by because I was on ComEd for quite a long time trying to conceive. 'cause the doctor said, I don't know why you're not falling pregnant because you should be. Um, 'cause you didn't see any other issues. And
Michelle: um.
Margaret: I reached a stage where I basically was burnt out. Um, I felt totally, um, by many other factors. Like, um, I was trying to emotionally deal with not falling pregnant 'cause I wanted to be a mother more than anything
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: like most of us have. And then obsessed over the fact that I wanted to fall pregnant.
And of course there's all those issues of everyone around you falling pregnant
Michelle: Mm-hmm.[00:04:00]
Margaret: You can't conceive, and so you get into a deep depression as well. basically by this stage also, my husband was trying to deal with was happening. I was trying to deal with what was happening and our relationship. Was having a breakdown as well, because I couldn't communicate with him. He wasn't communicating with me. He felt he was supporting me because not to bring it up and I wasn't talking about it. 'cause I thought by that stage I was to blame. I was the person that caused this, you know, all those feelings of, um, disillusionment and. You know, feeling just totally down.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: that's when um, I met someone, his name was Valentino. He was a [00:05:00] drug and alcohol counselor, and he straightaway identified that I was in that stage of burnout and said, you know, he sort of started to guide me and say to me. You know, you need to take a day at a time.
You need to really, um, your feelings. And so he guided me with all this emotional, um, emotional, um,
Michelle: Support.
Margaret: support, sorry, I couldn't
Michelle: Um, really quick, um, just so people know, like. She didn't go in there for drug and alcohol for herself, just so people hear because, uh, drug and alcohol. Yeah. She went for somebody else and then realized that she needed a little bit more nurturing.
Margaret: yes. I went, um, I went to, um, get some information for a friend and then I found out when I [00:06:00] was there, he sort of picked up
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: was. At a level that I shouldn't be, and he just started talking to me just. me some really good tips on how to rebuild myself, and then I realized
Michelle: a guardian angel.
Margaret: this anymore.
So that was really good 'cause that stopped me continuing on this rollercoaster of trying to fall pregnant
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: realizing that my nervous system was totally shambles and I was totally burnt out. I couldn't fall pregnant even if I tried, because basically I had to even give up work at the time because I was feeling, physically, mentally, not well.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: basically it was like total burnout.
Michelle: Yeah, I mean, um, sometimes too when you're in [00:07:00] that, it, I, I really, I think that it's just so telling that this whole story of how you met your guide really, and because, because I feel like when you're in that kind of deep, deep, dark place. You're the last person to recognize it on yourself. You, you think that everybody else needs help.
And you went actually to get help for somebody else, not even for yourself. And it's interesting how Valentino was it.
Margaret: Yes, that's correct. Was
Michelle: recognized it in you and you didn't even recognize what you needed at the time for yourself.
Margaret: no.
Michelle: And so this is kind of, I think the key thing that you're saying that I feel like is so important is that.
When people get to that place, because the mindset aspect of it is invisible. It's abstract. It's, I always say it's, it's like the sneaky little thing that nobody even realizes impacts your nervous system, [00:08:00] impacts you on every level, and it's, it's sneaky because you're already in that mindset. Therefore, it's very hard to recognize yourself or to see yourself and see.
Yeah.
Margaret: And I was in, you know, survival mode. I just was like a robot. I would just do the daily things every day, but I. I, I was all also about the guilt. You know, all the
Michelle: Yeah. The shame, the guilt. Yeah.
Margaret: the guilt, um. So I think that like him coming into my life at that time was perfect because I don't know what would've happened if he hadn't. And that made me, he slowly made me realize that I needed to stop this, you know, rollercoaster of trying to fall pregnant just work on myself like. on myself [00:09:00] to reset myself, but to
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: rediscover the person I had lost because I had totally lost Margaret. I was a
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: that I was, when I started trying to fall pregnant.
I was, I, I, I couldn't even, oh, I don't think I would even recognize myself 'cause I was totally a different person. But on the outside I showed everyone I was fine.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: on the inside I was totally, um, destroyed. Yeah.
Michelle: That's sad. It's sad to hear because you go through life and you're not fully living. You're like walking around, you know, pretending everything's fine, but you're not really truly living.
Margaret: And that's why I feel that if people can tell their stories, then other people can understand that. They're, they're, they're not, they're, uh, you know, it's, it's basically what they're going through [00:10:00] is normal, at the same time, they continue on that path, it's not gonna help them fall pregnant. Because then when I did my, you know, whole holistic, like, like I worked on my mind, my heart, everything, and my body. Went into IVF, then decided to try IVF at the age of 39. I fell pregnant in with my first go, so,
Michelle: Yeah. Amazing.
Margaret: truly believe that was because stopped and really healed.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: Because a lot of women just go from, you know, having, 'cause I had even more, uh, more than one miscarriage. But they keep going until keep going because they feel, they just have, they have, they've lost time. But
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: time that you spend [00:11:00] healing and rebuilding your mind, your body, and, and your soul,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: then you will. able to fall pregnant because have healed. if you don't do that, then obviously we know from research that stress plays a big part in also not allowing you, your body to receive a new life. And to be honest, if I had received a new life. The, the depleted Margaret, how could I be a good mother as well, because I was so depleted. How could I give what I needed to give to my child? Whereas having had that time,
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: I've enjoyed my motherhood and being able to give my son everything he deserves.[00:12:00]
Michelle: Yeah, and you really touched upon, I like, I love the fact, not love because it's not, it's not necessarily a good thing, but I think the word just is so soothing that you use as burnout, like, because I think that that is really what a lot of people I see, you know, I see every day at work. They're, they're literally coming to me burnt out and they just, uh, and I remember one specific.
Patient of mine saying, you know, I'm not coming here for myself. I'm coming here for the baby. And, and then I immediately recognized, wow, we really need to turn this around. And I had to talk to her about that. And there was a point where she really took a break from everything rebuilt herself. Kind of like how you figured that out.
And I feel like, you know how they say there's, there's steps and stages to, to things like grief. There's stages to a lot of different things in life and I feel like there's also fertility stages. Where you go through that and then you go through trying to, you know, do everything that you could possibly [00:13:00] do to make it work, and then you find yourself burnt out and drained, and then you, you know, somehow, I naturally, people start to realize, okay, well how much, how long can I sustain this?
How long can I go through this in, in the direction that I'm going without having any self care in this? Process and then finally realizing, wow, I really do need to like nurture myself back to healing because I think eventually you, you do realize that I think it is just unsustainable otherwise.
Margaret: Yes, exactly. But I, my, the reason I also like really wanted to become a coach and to make the changes and to give my voice and to also let other people understand that, you know, they're not alone. People understand and there is a way to, you know, go through this process feeling calm and confident, [00:14:00] and know that you have, you know, um, yourself fully. You know, in tune with your body, your soul, your mind, your heart,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: was because I realized there was such a gap.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: that's why I wanna get my voice out there too, because, you know, um, going through fertility is not just medical. emotional
Michelle: Yeah,
Margaret: enough support in the emotional part,
Michelle: you're right.
Margaret: really passionate about that because I, you know, even people that I, I speak to that are, you know, embryologists. even realize there's a gap. And
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: a gap, but they, you know, the medical doctors and everything do a great job,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: this massive gap and we need to also educate others about, you know, people that ha are going through fertility to [00:15:00] understand, you know, it's been linked to like going through a divorce or a death.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. And even cancer. Cancer diagnosis. Yeah.
Margaret: we need to put that in, you know, the same care as
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: things that we put in the care, you know, and that's my mission, is to get that message out there that we really need to support people that are going through fertility with emotional support That's so important.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: just medical, it's emotional as well.
Michelle: It really is, and you have a very, uh, you just have a knack for it. You, you're very nurturing by nature and you have that ability, and I think that that's not something that you can really teach anybody. I think that's some something that people have innately. Is, uh, having that compassion, having that understanding, and I think that that is something that is very much needed is people just wanna be heard, they wanna be seen, they wanna be [00:16:00] validated.
They wanna feel like they can really rely on somebody that understands them. It's very hard because a lot of times in the communities, they don't feel. Understood, because they see, just like you said, people around them getting pregnant. So people don't really fully understand what they're going through, and many times they're going through it in secret and don't really feel comfortable telling people what's going on.
So it could be very isolating time. A person's life. And so going back actually to your journey, I'd love to hear what was it specifically, or what were some of the things that you did that you really felt brought you back to life or brought you back to a place of grounding?
Margaret: Yes. So basically, um, I did a lot of reading and discovered the, the importance of the mind
and your mindset [00:17:00] and how you have to change your deep feelings to understand yourself. So re like resetting yourself as well and understanding yourself. And going back, I found. To me, like, it doesn't mean everyone's got different ways, but I started journaling and that was a real, um, it gave me a lot of peace, like journaling, being
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: my feelings and just putting everything down, even if it's, you know, 'cause I mean. If things are happening, like it could even be a best friend that said something to you that's really upset you your family as well. 'cause it's cultural as well. Like some families just are pushing, you know, um, telling you things like relax and, and, and things that are not working for you. So journaling was really good. I [00:18:00] also, um, found that, um. Things like obviously talking to Valentino that understood. Um, so sometimes you need someone that knows the space, even though he wasn't in the fertility space, he understood how to help people going through trauma. Or going through something. So being able to speak to someone and he taught me that you express your feelings, you say what you feel, you don't leave it inside your body, you actually are able to talk about it.
So that was good, like being able to express your feelings openly
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: and breath work as well. 'cause the breathing really helps as well.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: Those, those things really started to help. But also the knowledge of, you know, um, the mindset was, um, [00:19:00] like I read a lot of Louise Hayes and Dr. Wayne Dwyer, I just really related to it and it was like they were speaking to me like they understood me finally.
'cause um, even though I had a lot of love and support around me. I couldn't make the connections. I couldn't get that support. I felt totally alone like
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: feel alone. So being able to not feel that feeling alone.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: Is a big thing to releasing. So being able to release all those fears, release all those negative energies and turn them into something po positive. The other thing that I think really helped was the gratitude.
Michelle: Yes,
Margaret: Like being
Michelle: there is science behind it actually.
Margaret: yeah. Write down what I'm grateful [00:20:00] for. Um, and also turning around. Not just seeing my life as just having a baby, but seeing my life as who I am, my
Michelle: Hmm.
Margaret: what I valued,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: able to put that back into my life because you get so obsessed with trying to have a baby that you don't worry about anything about yourself.
Michelle: Yep.
Margaret: you actually lose yourself. So being able to then put back
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: the things that light me up? What are the things that make me happy? And then start to implement those things little by little. It's not big changes, it was just slow progressive changes. And then I started to shift.
Michelle: Yep.
Margaret: to shift my mindset, my ideas, my thoughts. It didn't mean I didn't want a baby, and it didn't mean I wouldn't [00:21:00] have a baby. It just meant that I needed to be who I'm supposed to be to bring that baby in. that's basically the major shift. the kind of, and like I said, step by step and Valentine, you say one day at a time, and I
Michelle: Yeah, it's true.
Margaret: a time. just do a little shift every day. So even if it was like. I was, um, getting down and, and probably eating the wrong foods, if it wasn't just changing my whole diet. It might've been just implementing one thing every day to change. my food to make me feel better, to give me more energy.
'cause I didn't have energy as well. So
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: kind of things. So I think it's very, um, personalized. So I think everyone has to find [00:22:00] their core reasons as well, their core values, and then build from that.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: your basically awakening. Everything that has died. I
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: really, but you are actually seeing like your identity, who are you and what are you wanting out of your life, you know, and focusing then back to yourself.
So filling your cup
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: it's. So
Michelle: 100%.
Margaret: filling your cup and then loving and nourishing yourself by doing like the breath work, the journaling, um, the emotional release, whatever ways that helps like. I found walking. That was for me, I found walking the sunlight and I used to love going to the beach and just listening to the waves.
Just those little things. Just, um, personalizing it for you [00:23:00] to put joy back into your life. Yeah. That kind of thing. And also yourself time for compassion, like. am I treating myself this way and a lot of rest? I, and then when those things happen that I was doing slowly, I could rest because I was always awake and, and, you know, why?
Why aren't I falling pregnant? And all those? And self-sabotaging yourself all the time and then changing your words was another one. So instead of, you know, like reframing, so instead of saying, I'm useless, I'm hopeless. You know, changing those words that you say to yourself that destroy the, destroys you as a person, basically. I think those things were the main things initially that I started doing, [00:24:00] and as I grew in more understanding. was like, it was like a, a wheel that turned and I just added more and more and I built myself up to the level that I felt good again. You know, and I had joy in my life and I could, you know, contribute to life. Whereas before it was just surviving life. That was a survival mode that I
Michelle: So interesting how you say that, because I always talk about it. I mean, really like. How our nervous system functions. It goes, it's kind of like a, it teeters between survival or, you know, look the sympathetic, which is con considered the fight or flight. It's not always just fight or flight. It could be very alert and it's part of what, what we need, you know, it's part of, it's a very necessary aspect of ourselves.
Um, it's what gets [00:25:00] stimulated when you're driving and when you're up, when you're focused. It's a hyper focus, but the big thing is that it needs to shift from that to the rest and digest the parasympathetic. It almost sounds like, um, kind of like we're putting a judgment on it, like a fight or flight, but it could be sympathetic.
It could be also very focused if it's done correctly. If it's done in a way that's balanced. And then the rest and digest is us being able to let go and kind of move away from this hyper focus of whatever's in front of us and allow us to get into a state where we're able to digest. And it, it's more of a growth aspect.
And what you were saying really reflects that. It, it's where we can create the body becomes more creative, more easy, more flowy, more um. Imaginative. We go into the kind of like more space and we allow ourselves to, in a sense, kind of float, you know, and be held. And so there's that [00:26:00] doing versus receiving aspect of ourselves.
And like I said, there's not, like, one is bad, one is good. You know, we, we tend to shift from one or the other. However, when we get to. Set on one or too much in one state. And most of us, when we're going through very stressful times in our lives, can find ourselves in a survival mode. And when we're in this constant perpetual survival mode, it will deplete, it will zap your energy.
And as we know, excels, um, sperm cells. Mitochondria is really important. The mitochondria is the really the powerhouse of the cells. And the reason why egg cells, for example, have so much mitochondria compared hundreds of thousands more compared to regular cells in the body. It it, there's a reason nature doesn't make mistakes.
It doesn't just randomly do things. It does it so that it sets it up [00:27:00] for the energy it takes to create new life. And if your energy is being zapped from all over the place. How in the world is it gonna be able to create new life? And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know. If you're zapped, you could feel it.
Your body's so intelligent, it speaks to you all the time. You feel drained because your body just wants you to sleep, your body wants you to rest so that it can recharge. And that's, uh, you know, it's like our phone battery. It's the same thing. I mean, we see it like it just doesn't function optimally if it's on a low percentage.
Margaret: Yeah, definitely, definitely. And if you're not calm, like how can you, you know, receive the, you know, the new life that you want in your body? So it's all about like being able to shift it from, you know,
Michelle: Yeah, it's a restoration.
Margaret: the restoration part and being able to receive. Yeah, I
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: agree in [00:28:00] what you're
Michelle: And I think that what you said was really important. You said one day at a time. It's less overwhelming that way, and I think that that's the key thing. You know, I feel like a lot of people go through, they almost feel pressured to relax. That's like an extra pressure that people feel like, oh my God, now I have to figure out a way to relax.
And I have to, so it's kind of all these extra pressures that people feel. Even something, it's like counterproductive because it's kind of like, how can I relax if I feel pressured to relax? It's just all of these, and then the, you know, there, there's the judgment, you know, oh, you could just relax and you're gonna be fine.
And, you know, the judgment, the, the feeling misunderstood. And it's, but it's true. People say it a lot. It just, uh, it doesn't get, it just keeps happening, you know? So. So those are the things that people feel like, well, how do I do that? And I think that you saying that and kind of naming that like one day at a time feels so much less [00:29:00] overwhelming than to think about all of it at once.
Margaret: Yes, exactly. And you know, thing that we're trying to change is that women shouldn't have to carry this emotional load alone. They should be able to get support so that they can do one day at a time. You
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Margaret: you know, fertility is a whole person journey. It's the body, the mind, the heart, the nervous system, all of that. And when women understand how they can, you know, provide the, the care needed for. For your body, your mind, your heart, and your nervous system, they're naturally gonna feel calmer. They're
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: going to be able to deal with things that happen in a
Michelle: Right.
Margaret: way than they would've if they didn't have those tools and strategies.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: about having those tools and [00:30:00] strategies, you know, in your toolkit that
Michelle: Yep.
Margaret: just pop out when you need. And it's just like, even the breath, like just doing that simple breath.
Michelle: Yeah,
Margaret: can just calm you. Like,
Michelle: it's true. It's an immediate hack. It's the best brain hack ever. Um, that will, that is your, your light switch to shift your nervous system right there then and there is your breath.
Margaret: And just having those in, you know, being able to use them when needed,
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Margaret: use different tools because we're all. And you know, some people might like to visualize or meditate, which are also great tools, but obviously each person will find the tools that will really help them through this journey.
Michelle: What would've, what would it have meant to you to find a fertility coach on [00:31:00] your journey?
Margaret: Oh my goodness.
Michelle: Looking back, because back then, I don't know if they, it's more of a recent thing.
Margaret: They didn't have, um, I was just blessed that I met Valentino because he had tools and strategies that he gave me, but. I must admit, even though I went through the process, and of course it took me so long before I, you know, restored myself, I think if I had a fertility coach, it wouldn't have taken me four or five years to do that.
I think I would've been able to do that. Um. Quicker, but also being able to have someone that totally knew, could see me and understand me, knew my
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: because had been through it or
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: you know, the processes and everything. And I also think by having that fertility coach, like. [00:32:00] I know that I would've been able to go, like I said, go through the process a lot quicker and that's why I wanted, I wanted to become a fertility coach and left education to do that because I knew that you can have these tools and strategies and really it can change your life. It changed mine. It changed mine, and I'm so grateful that had met Valentino. But I know now that if I was going through, you know, fertility issues, I, that would be the first thing I would get is a, coach to help me, um, guide me and give me these tools to get through, um, the journey in a peaceful and calm way,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: Because everyone's journey is different. It doesn't mean that you have to go [00:33:00] through it bump by bump, by bump, bump. You know, you
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: like go through it smoothly.
Michelle: Yes, it's true. It, it is true. And everybody's different. Every journey is different. Um, completely. And everybody has, even though there's similar, um, things that people can relate to there, it's such an individual, uh, path. It's an individual way of seeing things, individual perspective, a hundred percent.
Margaret: And I also feel that, like I didn't realize the holistic part of it. So thank you for doing your course, Michelle. 'cause that was just fabulous. I, it just spoke to me because of my journey and when I was doing your course, I'm going, oh my goodness, this is exactly what I need. You know, this is exactly what's going to be able to help me to help others.
It was just really aligned to my beliefs
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: and. [00:34:00] My beliefs came from going through that journey, so you know, I would vouch for it. A hundred percent. And also really knowing that the holistic part is about looking after your whole self, not just thinking, oh, I just have to, you know, um, do this part. It's about really deep work, like it's
Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent.
Margaret: your heart, and, and just learning more things about how everything is connected.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Everything's connected and this is why, um, you know, Chinese medicine really looks at the person as a whole. They don't, uh, look at parts or just symptoms or, you know, it's, it's really mind, body, spirit. Uh, it's all of it's important. Nothing is not important. So it's, even if you're very spiritual, but you're eating junk food or if you're eating really perfectly felt healthy, but you're really hard on [00:35:00] yourself.
So it's kind of like addressing all of those different aspects. And believe it or not, I have a lot of people in the doing the course that are actively on their fertility journey, helping themselves and others at the same time, which is pretty amazing, really amazing that they're, you know. To do that when you're going through it yourself?
Yeah,
Margaret: And I agree because your course covers, you know, the holistic side of it and some co like, uh, you know, some courses just look at. Fertility in general medical, but again, that's not what I was,
Michelle: yeah, yeah. The whole, yeah.
Margaret: it is, not just, you know, to know what, you know, what medication to take, or if you've got PCOS, you should be doing this.
You know,
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: each condition it has got different, it's yes. knowledge is important of course, 'cause it changes what you do and [00:36:00] how you are gonna feel, but it's not just that. So I
Michelle: And it's also, uh, you, it's you, Margaret as, as your individual because, um, how you are taking it, how you're translating it, and how you're passionate about it, because that's something that a person can't really be taught. It's a, that, that passion that comes through you, that wants to help others, that to help them on things that you've been through.
To alleviate some of the difficulties and some of, you know, the extra, uh, weight they're carrying, you know? So that is a hundred percent you and I I wanna say that because that is something that you have and you, what I love about wor like the time that I've had working with you, and you are just a really genuinely.
Such great hearted person. I, you don't meet a lot of people like that, that are genuinely like wanting to help people like, like a really, [00:37:00] really authentically,
Margaret: Oh, thank you, Michelle. That means a lot to me. You, um, I, I mean, I, if I can even change one person's pathway make it smoother and calmer, it's, um, it definitely is. Um, what I, you know, would like to do is to help other people. 'cause I really feel that if. I've got a motto is embrace the journey.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: know, embrace it, transform with purpose and the purpose part that you are using the tools and strategies and empower your future by doing that. 'cause I feel that, um, through what I went through, basically that pathway was what I. know, I felt at the end I did, and I [00:38:00] felt like that it did empower my future, um, for the positive, um, ways, you know, that's why I want to, you know, um, and that's why I worked on really coming up with a program that could do that, like. Holistically.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Talk about the fertility godmother, how you stepped into that role.
Margaret: so, um, obviously I don't want people to spend five years trying and that's not necessary anymore because we do have the tools and strategies. So I've, um, done a holistic program that, um. Aligns your mind, body, and heart and soul. And it's basically, um, the purpose of it is to give you [00:39:00] emotional steadiness for your body trust and inner safety. Um, so whether you are, know, feeling that you, it's good if someone's gotta go through treatment like IVF to do this beforehand, or if someone feels that really they're at, you know, they're feeling, a little burnt out or. Feeling that they're going down that rabbit hole. So what I do there is, um, I do two weeks where we awaken.
So we listen to the story, we look at the values, we look at the person's identity. We also do the cycle awareness so that their understanding their bodies more, so they're really awakening to their emotional patterns. Any burnout. they might have. So basically, it's really important for people to be aware about what's happening to their [00:40:00] bodies and their minds, so that that's the first two weeks. Then the next two weeks is Love and Nourish. So what we do is we do breath work, we do We look at other, uh, strategies that they might put into place slowly into their, their routines to help them steady their, um, look at rest. Compassion and we also look at nervous system rituals, so to help them
Michelle: Love that.
Margaret: system, which is really important. Then week five, we do mindset. 'cause we mindset changing the mindset is really important. We do belief work and we also do visualizations. If obviously the program is. Structured to suit the individual person.
Michelle: So this is all one-on-one.
Margaret: Yeah, it's [00:41:00] all one-on-one and that's important because it has to fit with, you know, their belief systems, what they feel will help them. Then in week six we do grounding, so we do like stress triggers regulation, and we really look at the support because I feel. That the support system they have around them. So especially like partner work and things like that is really vitally important. And I know it's important because of how my marriage broken and had to go through repair like before, you know, during that time.
And that's also why it took such a long time before I went through IVF as well because everything was broken.
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: we don't wanna get to that stage. We want to make sure that we have those support systems that we are communicating in a way [00:42:00] that is supportive with your partner or whoever that might be, or a friend, whoever the support system is. Then we do, um, week seven, we do like nurture. So we look at, um, boundaries as well. So not just relationships. So
Michelle: important.
Margaret: boundaries are really, really important because we need to put those in place
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: because sometimes, um, people can't understand. So you've gotta put those boundaries
Michelle: Yeah.
Margaret: we can, we do align, we do alignment plan.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: we do like a future vision as well. And the alignment plan is individualized for that person
Michelle: Mm-hmm. Amazing.
Margaret: by that, by week eight, they've already got like a flow through of what they're doing and they see the shifts.
Michelle: Yes, the transformation
Margaret: along [00:43:00] the way. So that's
Michelle: and I have to say she's pretty much giving this away for way under. It's, I mean, this is an incredible opportunity for whoever's listening because, um, if you wanna take it from there and, and tell them this and insane opportunity that people can.
Margaret: Hmm. Yes. So I basically wanna offer it to a, a select number of people, obviously, that I can cater for. 'cause it is a one-to-one program and I'm offering it for $200. Um, because I, obviously it, I'm.
Michelle: So this is eight one-on-one calls. By the way, you guys, it's, it's insane amount of information.
Margaret: they also have like, um, people are wanna do it as the program should be. So it's eight, like the first week and the last week is [00:44:00] more than an hour.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Margaret: Um, because. The first week we are discovering and talking and working out what the person, how they want to go along with the program. So that's. Um, probably an hour and a half. And the last week, because we are doing an alignment plan, would be an hour and a half to two hours. then the other weeks it's an hour one-on-one coaching and also they get a journal, so there's a journal to that they can use alongside the program. And at the end we build things as well that they get something at the end that they can go away with, which is not just the alignment plan, but also something built in that will support whatever journey they go on we do the eight weeks program, if you know they have questions or they wanna reach out, [00:45:00] um, we also have that possibility of. You know, um, asking questions or being able to, so it's not just one-on-one, but I want it to be like they feel supported all the way through the eight weeks.
Michelle: Such an incredible gift. Amazing. And I'm going to be putting in an application in the episode notes for anybody who wants to apply. Um, I highly recommend you take advantage of this 'cause I don't know that like anything like this is out, available out there.
Margaret: Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Um. I, I totally believe in the program and I really believe that someone starting the program wherever they're at, at, in their fertility journey, are gonna come out feeling stronger, feeling more calm, feeling they have strategies and tools to move forward. also feeling that, um. You know, [00:46:00] a different mindset in how they're gonna approach that. They also will have, you know, uh, like skills for partner relationships and also boundaries. So that's, I think, really important as well. yes, um,
Michelle: Amazing Margaret.
Margaret: to have, you know, anyone on board so that I can make those changes for them.
Michelle: Amazing. Amazing, amazing. So, Margaret, I am so excited we finally got you on here, and I just really like, I, I really adore you. You're just such a sweet person. I'm so happy I met you and I'm so happy to finally have you on the podcast. So thank you so much, Margaret, for coming on today.
Margaret: Thank you, Michelle. Honestly, from the sincerely from the bottom of my heart, thank you for allowing me to get this message across to your listeners and [00:47:00] um, I absolutely adore you too, as you know.
Michelle: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Michelle Oravitz 1/19/26 Michelle Oravitz 1/19/26

Ep 370 The Truth About Fertility Decline and Reproductive Longevity with Gabriella Rosa

Fertility after 40 is often misunderstood. In this episode, Gabriella Rosa explains why age alone is not the true barrier to conception and what actually matters when trying to get pregnant later in life. From egg and sperm quality to metabolic health and emotional wellbeing, this conversation offers clarity, hope, and evidence-based guidance for anyone navigating fertility in their late 30s and 40s.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Gabriella Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, a globally recognised fertility specialist and researcher, to unpack the truth about fertility after 40.

We explore why age alone is not the real issue, what actually impacts egg and sperm quality, and how metabolic health, lifestyle factors, and emotional wellbeing play a much bigger role in conception than most people are told. Gabriella also shares insights from her clinical research and discusses the importance of addressing fertility-related trauma and stress.

This episode offers clarity, hope, and evidence-based guidance for anyone navigating fertility in their late 30s and 40s.

Key Takeaways:

Fertility myths around age 35 and 40
Egg quality, sperm quality, and mitochondrial health
Why fertility is a team effort
Metabolic health and lifestyle factors that influence conception
The emotional impact of infertility and why support matters
Gabriella’s clinical trial supporting emotional wellbeing in fertility

Connect with Gabriela Rosa:

Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/
Fertility Breakthrough Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/
Fertility Breakthrough Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Grabriella: Welcome back to the podcast, Gabrielle, I'm so happy to have you.
Thank you so much. You know, it's so lovely when I get to invited back so that I know that, okay, the first conversation went really well and people have gotten benefit and it's always wonderful. So thank you for having me.
Of course. And we covered so many different things, but I'd like to get a little bit more deep dive with you, um, on a topic that. I hear often and it's, um, it's a topic I feel pretty passionate about too because I think that there's a lot of misconception about it. And it's fertility over 40. You know, people, people even say, you know, after 35, it just goes nose dive, and I've seen so many, so many conceptions happen after 40.
And then you also, I always love sharing the Guinness Book of World Records, Don Brooks. Who got pregnant and had a healthy baby at 59[00:01:00]
Wow. Yeah, that's, wow.
you know, those stories
I hope that doesn't happen to me, Michelle. All I have to say.
that is so great. No, no, me too, me too. I'm like, um, I'm good there. But it just shows the possibilities
Yeah. Yeah.
we believe in a certain, um, like limit on what our bodies are capable of. And I know that you have a lot of amazing. You've had a lot of results in that and worked with a lot of people over 40, so I'd love to really explore that topic
Yeah, absolutely.
in that.
Yeah, for sure.
I think that it's, you've started it exactly where I think a lot of people. Land when they first hear of the conversation of fertility or infertility is that after 35, your fertility takes a nose dive and it's like, oh my God, can we please stop perpetuating that? Um, it's not to say that biologically.
[00:02:00] Women do have at this point. And it's interesting 'cause you know, every time I start this conversation, I think about how obsolete this conversation is going to be in 50 years from now. You know? Because right now we do have a biological limit in terms of women are born with all the aids that we will ever have.
But I am pretty certain that. You know, in a not so distant future with all of the research that's going on regarding stem cells and, you know, different aspects, and I don't wanna say specific things because we're still very early on, I often get asked about. Procedures right now that people, you know, see as possibly available to them.
And the evidence really isn't there for a lot of these things that are being sold, you know, quote unquote in the marketplace to women who are desperate and who want to, you know, give themselves the best possible chance of having a baby. [00:03:00] And so I'm always hesitant to say. You know, women need to do things to improve their egg quality.
From a perspective of interve high level interventions, uh, you know, there are absolutely things that are going to make a huge difference in terms of improving egg quality for women at any age. That come from taking charge of the things you do and optimizing results. So from that perspective, and we'll dive deeper into that, um, I highly recommend that people pay attention to the things that they're exposed to in their day-to-day, the choices that we make.
You know, all of those things will be important when it comes to egg quality. But, you know, going back to the conversation that we were just having. When we talk about in the next 50 years where it's going to and how it's going to be possible for ovarian reserve to replenish itself or for us to be able to develop more eggs.[00:04:00]
And have babies with our own eggs and extend the longevity of reproduction for women. You know, the, this, the, the sky's the limit. You know, I think as we start to dive deep into these new and unchartered washes, but we're still kind of very early on in that process. You know? Yes, there are some animal model studies.
There are some interesting, you know, things that are being done in terms of science. But from a, from a viability perspective of it actually being done right now, it, it's, we're not there yet. You know, so we have to then have the concept that we don't want to be delaying fertility for the sake of delaying or for the sake of the fact that.
You know, it is true that life extent, uh, um, average, the, the, the, um, sorry, the life expectancy rates of [00:05:00] populations have increased drastically, you know, just 50 years ago. If you think about it, you know, we were dying at 50 or 60, you know, whereas the life expectancy. Today in Western countries. I mean, I know that in Australia it's 84.5 years for females, you know?
So you think about that and you go, wow, okay, so if I'm going to be alive with good quality of life into my eighties, and fertility wise, let's say menopause is the. Natural end of, and again, you know, in these types of cases where women are conceiving afterwards, it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it becomes highly unlikely.
Um, but, you know, post menopause. But um, before menopause, certainly we need to start thinking about the fact that, okay, if we're hitting menopause, say on average. At [00:06:00] 45 to 50, and we know that five years, five to 10 years before menopause and the diagnostic criteria, there is one year of no periods. After, you know, you basically have ceased periods for one year and your FSH levels rise, your estrogen levels decrease.
Then, you know, okay, I am in menopause. Five to 10 years before that, we women find themselves into this stage called perimenopause, which is where. There are more imbalances in terms of hormonal levels. There are more challenges in terms of regularity of cycles. Egg quality also decreases and ovarian reserve decreases as well.
And so, you know, from that perspective, we do have to take into account that we. Right now, we'll hit that place somewhere. If we talk about five to 10 years before, if somebody hits menopause at [00:07:00] 45, then you know, from 35 to 40, they already are potentially in that perimenopause stage. If they hit menopause at 50.
At 45 to 40, they are already in that perimenopausal state in perimenopause. It is not impossible. In fact, there are still many things you can do to optimize the chances of taking home a healthy baby. And so a lot of the patients that we would be seeing would be in that kind of, you know, 30 to say 45, you know, range where.
They could potentially, and certainly when we talk about premature ovarian failure or premature ovarian sufficiency, where a woman is much younger and has a very elevated FSH and ovarian reserve, that's much declined. It obviously also comes into the conversation of like, okay, is it still possible to optimize the egg quality that is remaining so that we can improve the chances of taking [00:08:00] home a healthy baby?
And the answer is absolutely yes. And in those situations, what is really important to highlight, and I think that it's even more important to take into consideration, is the fact that if we do have lower ovarian reserve, and if we do have impacted egg quality, sperm quality becomes of paramount importance because it is.
The egg that has to, you know, do all of the work to ensure that we don't have the, the errors in the DNA of the sperm being passed on to a, a potential embryo or potential child. And so what happens is the egg has to utilize its own energy production that, you know, it's mitochondria that is already kind of struggling a little bit.
For improving its own, um, division and, and maturation process. And then of course we'll have to go on [00:09:00] to produce an embryo development, you know, process. Um, it's going to have a much harder time if the sperm is not good quality, right? If we, if it's having to utilize its energy to. Eradicate or prevent those DNA fragmentation errors to be passed onto the baby, it's going to have less energy for embryo development and you know, kind of that whole process.
So that's where we need to start really looking at this conversation. And we've talked about before, and I always say that fertility is a team sport and this is very much why? Because from a mechanistic perspective. Effective. If we don't have the best quality sperm, we are going to be putting an additional burden on the egg.
That is, you know, that is not warranted. And certainly that didn't need to be there. So, you know, even though, and I think that this is the important takeaway from this whole conversation, is that. [00:10:00] As much as at this stage, we want to think that female fertility can be extended beyond, you know, uh, it's kind of quote unquote natural stages.
It cannot. And so we do have to ensure that we're being smart about what it is that we do. We are not delaying. And it's important also for men to realize that because males male fertility is seen as more. Infinite, so to speak. It's not infinite by any means. Right. But we, we do hear in the media, you know, oh, Hugh Hefner made a Playboy, uh, Playboy Bunny pregnant, you know, um, at 90, and you kind of go, well, yeah, but she was 20, you know, and so.
It's a very, very different situation with mitochondrial health being different and egg quality parameters being in a different, at a much earlier age, it can afford [00:11:00] to utilize its energy to fix the errors in a 90-year-old sperm, um, as opposed to, and the sperm is not 90-year-old because obviously sperm is being produced throughout a male's lifetime.
But, um, the quality of its, uh, DNA certainly does decrease with. Time. And so, you know, it's a different conversation. So I think that a lot of, a lot of men think that, oh, I don't really need to worry about my fertility so much because obviously, you know, it's a woman's issue, which again, hopefully by now people understand that it's not and why it's not.
But, um, it, with us seeing that, you know, sperm parameters are declining. With age and as the passing of time. Just even, you know, like I was reading a study, I was reading a a, an analysis the other day that was talking about the fact that since the 1970s sperm count, male sperm counts have decreased by 60%.[00:12:00]
60%.
I've heard of that. It's nuts.
It's absolutely insane.
so the, the normal, today's is not by any means what the normal used to be. So
I.
been like almost dumbed down to be considered normal.
And, and this is the thing that a lot of times people don't understand is that reference ranges for lab results actually are derived from the population. So what happens is that if health is declining in the entire population over time, and diabetes and diabetes diagnosis and blood sugar level. You know, parameters and insulin parameters are a great example of this, and they also drastically impact fertility.
But sperm is another one where, you know what a normal sperm count used to be in the seventies is literally 60 times higher, 60% higher than it is now. And now it's like, you know, you get 20 million, which is the minimum that you [00:13:00] know we need to have now. And most men struggle. You know, who, uh, who are having fertility problems, especially, you know, a huge percentage of the population who struggle to conceive.
You know, if we talk about the fact that it's a 40% male factor, 40% female factor, and 20% embryonic factor. The reasons as to why people don't conceive or take a healthy pregnancy to term. So again, increased risk of miscarriage. Increased risk of infertility becomes a major issue here. Um, it's, it's, you know, it's not a woman's thing at all.
It's actually a couple's thing to begin with. That then gets impacted by the embryo that ensues from those originating cells. So if we want to make those embryos into healthier embryos, we do have to pay attention to what's happening in terms of egg quality and sperm quality. For sure.
And what do you think it is that causes it? I mean, we know environmental toxins, like what are your thoughts on why [00:14:00] it's
Look. Absolutely environmental toxins will play a role. But if you also think about how men used to work back in. You know, the fifties, sixties, uh, the fifties, we started to have more office work, right. Being part of the, the, the day to day. But, you know, there used to be a lot more movement in general in terms of people actually not sitting down.
At their desks the whole day. There used to be a lot more activity. And if you think about, just from a, purely from a heat perspective that we know impacts sperm, you know, we know that sedentary behavior increases the, the risk of many chronic illnesses, but it's also having a huge impact on, in terms of sperm because.
There is a reason why the testicles hang outside of the body. It's because typically the testicles, in order to produce quality sperm, need to be about one degree centigrade lower than the rest of the body. And so what that [00:15:00] means is that if we are heating the testicles because we're sitting, men are sitting on it the whole day on their desks and doing computer work, or they have occupational hazards that are part of, you know, that conversation and then they go out.
Side and they engage in cycling that, you know, retypes and do all sorts or have their phones in their pockets, or go in the baths or spas or saunas, you know, anything that increases heat to the testicles is going to negatively impact. Firm and you know, sitting down on the couch all day for four hours watching Netflix after work they've already been sitting all day is certainly not going to be beneficial.
But then, you know, outside of that obvious kind of very physical mechanistic process, there is also the fact that, you know, we do have more endocrine disruptors than ever in our environment. And so what that ends up meaning or translating into is the fact that, okay, now what we have is a [00:16:00] situation. Where there are exposures from our food, from where our food is packaged to what we put on our bodies and the air we breathe that really are impacting that lock and key, that is how the endocrine system operates.
You know, the cell. Is the lock and the hormone is the key. A hormone is a substance that you know is, is built in one part of the body and affect another part of the body. And what happens with these endocrine disruptors is that they mimic the key. And so you end up with something that is, you know, estrogen.
And a lot of these endocrine disruptors are estrogenic. Now men need to have a higher dose of testosterone in, they're circulating in their body in order to be able to produce sperm. And because a lot of these endocrine disruptors are estrogenic, what ends up happening is that they're being loaded with additional estrogens that were never naturally found, you know, in most men's uh, [00:17:00] bloodstreams, and certainly not in the cell receptors that these mimicking chemicals find themselves in.
And so instead of, you know, the cell receptor for testosterone, having. A molecule of testosterone in that cell receptor that's going to do the right job that is encoded for it to do. It has a mimicking molecule that basically, essentially changes the function or the instruction that is delivered to that cell.
And so we end up with issues that, you know, obviously we didn't anticipate in terms of many health conditions. I mean, we are seeing. Lots of different estrogen related cancers in men these days because of this very reason. So, you know, I think that there is an environmental component that is really a big part of what we need to take into account as well.
And now I'm learning about LEDs and [00:18:00] how, I mean, we're still programmed by light and, and are. really respond to the circadian rhythm of nature.
Hmm.
then you have LEDs, which don't have a complete spectrum. I can confuse the body as well, and I'm learning about that. There's so many, um, aspects of how we're living.
It's crazy.
Yeah. I mean, look, you know, this is the thing. I think we are, the human body is highly unprepared for modern life. You know, there's the, and especially the speed in which technology is developing and unveiling new and improved, quote unquote, you know, ways of living. Certainly convenience is at an all time high.
Uh, bodies, they weren't built for convenience. Really, if you think about it, what actually kept us healthy was the struggle, right? And so we are now in a situation where. We don't have those same struggles in the day to day and we have to add back some [00:19:00] friction to be able to, you know, really help the body to kind of rebalance.
And, you know, this is one of those other really interesting points too, that, you know, the adaptation response that is required for the body to be in homeostasis is also being confused, right? So there is a lot that the body can take, but. For the most part, one of the things that I think we need to, to understand, and it's almost kind of like going back to um, an earlier time so to speak, is the fact that.
The body really does know what to do. Its internal wisdom is in impressive on so many levels, right? And so sometimes it's not what we need to do. It's not doing more. That is the answer. It's like, what are the things that we need to stop doing, right? What are the things that we need to remove from. Our day to day, that actually helps to enhance [00:20:00] the way that our body operates simply from and not being there.
And I think identifying those things for ourselves that each person kind of knows. You know, like if I was to go back to a more natural way of living. What does that look like? Um, I think that that's a question that more and more we're going to need to ask ourselves. And it's not to say that, you know, we ignore technology or these conveniences.
There are many, many things that, you know, are wonderful. I mean, just the development of antibiotics for one is, you know, like I would never, if somebody needs antibiotics, I'd be the first one to be saying, go take it. You know, like there's no need to apply. Some herbal medicine to, you know, something that will be resolved for, you know, with an antibiotic.
Like, you know, sometimes I get patients in my clinic that have literal infections that are silent, but are causing infertility. Chlamydia is, you know, a, a common one. Like I'm not gonna be telling them, oh, here, [00:21:00] take a bottle of herbal medicines. It's not that I don't use herbal medicines, we certainly do, where it's indicated and where it's necessary, and there are some incredible benefits to utilizing it.
But it's about knowing what tool to use when, rather than we only do one thing, or we only do things in a certain way because then we lose the benefit of technology and development and we start to add friction where it, we shouldn't, you know?
Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I think that everything, if you really take all of the different technologies and look at the ancient wisdom and then also the modern technology and combine it, and I think that that's what makes a really good practitioner is somebody who can decipher
Yeah. Absolutely a hundred percent. And also I think that, you know, it's, it's about patients learning where things are most effective. Let me give you an example. You know, sometimes we, I often have people asking me [00:22:00] about, you know, like, should I take metformin right? For improving my insulin resistance? And I say, well.
equality, they say, uh,
That's right. And, and it's actually for implantation. You know, there's a lot of studies now coming out and they, and some of these studies, by the way, they're not actually human studies. They're, they're animal models. And so I think that one of the really important things to highlight here is that there's a lot that gets talked about, or especially on social media, like.
Uh, yesterday I did a video. I do a lot of patient education on my Instagram account. Gabriela Rosa fertility is the handle. But you know, like yesterday I did a video on seed cycling because seed cycling is something that gets perpetuated a lot. There is no human evidence on the impact of seeds on hormonal regulation in the body.
Okay, now if you like seeds. And you wanna eat them. They're crunchy. They're delicious in salads. You know, they're going to provide fiber, they're going to provide some omegas. You know, it's not that I'm saying don't eat [00:23:00] seeds. It's that the way in which people then want to extrapolate. Evidence from an animal model or an animal animal study into human, you know, processing is, is inaccurate at best and dangerous at worst.
Because what ends up happening is that then people think that, okay, I'm going to not take. The appropriate treatment to go and do something that is being denoted on social media, as you know, the way, their natural way to improve my hormones. And it, it, it's bollocks. It doesn't work. It's not actually, you know, the, the intention of benefit is there, but.
You know, good intentions aren't everything. Sure Placebo still results in 30% of the benefits in drug trials. 30% of the result is actually derived from placebo. So if you think it works, it probably, you know, will give you some benefit, [00:24:00] but the reality is.
harm. And that's, that's the
You see, but this is the problem. The problem is that there is harm because if you think about it, if somebody is taking quote unquote, some, you know, trendy, whatever from social media and applying that instead of applying effectiveness and effective treatment.
They've lost the opportunity to actually make a difference to their situation. And so there is harm in that. And I think that there is a lot that we need to take into account when we are making recommendations to general public that it's not, it's, there is no neutral effect in a recommendation that a practitioner makes because the practitioner.
At the end of the day is being seen as the person that is guiding that, that individual, towards hopefully a better outcome. And so if we're giving, you know, evidence-based rubbish as recommendations, people get confused and in that there is harm, whether it's [00:25:00] misinformation that's not derived from a malice of wanting to misinform to make money, which then becomes this information.
It doesn't matter because by the time somebody has lost the opportunity to have a baby altogether, because they were doing a thousand things that would actually not move the needle in their particular situation because they heard from a book or they heard from a forum, or they heard from somebody's social media account that it's the thing to do well, we've done harm.
Right. And I think that that's the, the problem.
is harmful, like things
Oof.
like is really harmful because knowing what's really happening in your body, and people do, I mean, because you're able to get the supplements, those kind of things. But if you're having, um, you know, certain diets, of course if you're doing it exce, uh, like instead of something else, then yes, it's harmful, but. If you're doing it in addition, and it's just like, it's really just adding more things to your diet. Different story.
Oh, for sure. I think that, you know, again, it's, it's really. [00:26:00] How people understand the communication of accurate information. Right. But going back to the example in terms of like Metformin the best way still, you know, and I've done extensive reviews on this topic. Insulin resistance is one of the biggest issues when it comes to ovulation.
You know, failure, irregularity of cycles, sperm parameter issues, you know, and it's silent and usually people don't even understand that they have it, or their doctors don't even get to diagnose it because they, they do it too late. Uh, and, and so what happens is that. The best way still, if you go to the evidence and you, you can do a clinical, uh, uh, a full literature review on this, and you will find that still, the best way to improve insulin resistance and blood sugar parameters is diet and exercise.
If in some instances it's necessary because people either are not compliant [00:27:00] enough or they have some other issues in terms of the compliance aspect, then sure we can add Medica medications to that, and of course where there are metabolic disease already in situ, then obviously there might be a need for medications to help to correct those issues.
If somebody already has diabetes, then yes, take your insulin right. The reality of it is that when we are looking at hormonal imbalances derived from a metabolic place in terms of like blood sugar dysregulation, insulin resistance, in the very early stages, diet and exercise is going to be better than drugs and medication.
But that's not the message that most people receive or understand because, well, there are misaligned in interests in the healthcare system, right? And we also as patients, uh, you know, most people want convenience. So most people are going to like, you know, if I can get. Take a [00:28:00] pill and not have to bother about all of these other things that take time, effort, energy, and and so on.
Then I might just take the pill. But that goes back to the conversation that we were having before where the convenience is actually not in our best interest. Right, because it's, this is precisely where like if you really want to improve insulin resistance, hey, 45 minutes of zone rate in zone, zone range two, uh, heart rate range, um, training 45 minutes.
Three to four times a week and go build muscle at the gym and you're going to do a much better job at your overall health. The way that I like to think about this, uh, in terms of building muscle and that whole mitochondrial impact throughout all of your cells that are going to help to improve every aspect of health and fertility, it's almost like.
Muscle is the air filter of the system, you know, uh, air purifier, so to speak. [00:29:00] So it's going to be removing and utilizing items and things within the bloodstream that actually is going to help the environment for the egg maturation period and for the sperm maturation or development period. To to happen in a better way.
So by us ensuring that we are implementing healthy strategies in our day to day, from building muscle to a healthy diet, we're going to be not only impacting. Our cells and how our body operates in general, but we are going to be having a very direct impact on fertility from adding those strategies. So it really is, it's a comprehensive approach that's going to ultimately optimize the chances of taking home a healthy baby.
But. Knowing when to utilize convenience and knowing when to actually go for the hard stuff at the gym is a really important part of this conversation for optimizing fertility over [00:30:00] 40 or at any age. Right? One of the things that I do say to my patients all the time is that. If you want to improve and optimize your mitochondrial health for your eggs, and this is not going to have a direct impact on eggs necessarily, but what happens is that if your body is in better health overall and your mitochondrial health is better in your body overall, what ends up happening is that it gives those those cells that are in development better opportunity to be healthier and that can only improve your fertility outcomes.
Yeah, 100%. It, it really is truly like a holistic approach and to understand that your body is not made in little, um, you're not focusing on the puzzle pieces. You're, you're looking at the whole picture.
Wow.
everything impacts everything. And then, you know, even worse than metformin, you know, this whole ozempic baby trend that's happening.
And, uh, people don't realize that in some cases it can really impact digestive [00:31:00] system and in a way that's irreversible. there are, it's not coming for free. And there's always like, you know, the shortcuts that people, you know, they, they've had stories when we were little, like on shortcuts
Yeah.
is for free.
There's no such thing as a shortcut.
You see, this is the thing, and I think that that's a really important thing for people to realize. Like GLP ones are a miracle. Like honestly, they are a miracle of modern technology and of pharmaceutical prowess. Like I will take my hat off any day of the week and say that, you know. For certain people with developed disease, it's going to be, and particularly where they struggle with implementation, they struggle with, you know, a whole bunch of things.
It's not that it's something, it, it, I don't see it personally. I, and I, and I have the same view about every aspect of medicalization, right? There is a, a time and a [00:32:00] place for certain things and you know, with GLP ones there is definitely a, a. A time and a place where that might be useful, but it does not replace, and I think that this is the important takeaway message.
It does not replace people having to take ownership and responsibility for their day-to-day actions, their behaviors, their habits, you know, and it's an aid for sure. It's an aide. For some people, it actually is going to make the entire difference between them dropping enough weight in a sustainable way that it enables them to be able to have a healthy pregnancy.
Make the mistake about it, you know, being overweight, insulin resistance and diabetes, all of those metabolic health, uh, conditions. Drastically negatively impact egg and sperm quality and, um, uterine and [00:33:00] receptivity, and therefore the ability to actually carry a healthy pregnancy to term. Now, there's also no evidence suggesting that it's entirely safe, and you're absolutely right that there are going, there is no free lunch here, right?
So it's not something that is going to be a situation where. You can take it with no repercussions. There's always gonna be repercussions. There are, there are, there are kind of, you know, cost effectiveness and effectiveness analysis and, and pros and cons that you have to put into consideration when we, you are making a decision to use or not use certain treatments.
So, you know, the thing about it is that. If somebody is in a situation where they would have to choose between bariatric surgery or GLP ones, I'd be going GLP ones any day of the week. Right? Like
Yeah,
Exactly. Because you know, with bariatric surgery like that. Stuff is permanent. You're [00:34:00] gonna have permanent nutritional deficiency issues.
You're going to have multiple other health condition issues to deal with later down the track from something that you know is very, very permanent. Now, mind you, some people with, you know. Morbid obesity. Maybe that's some that might be the only way for them to be able to actually get their health back on track.
And so it's not to say that there is a right or wrong approach. There is an approach that is going to actually support. The values and preferences of the patient. And I think that that's one of the really important things that we need to take into account. For some people, certain decisions, particularly in terms of their health, is going to be determined by their values and preferences.
And taking those into consideration is the job of any clinician, right? So we, we are not going to be saying to people, oh no, this is the only way, and I mean certain clinicians do, and that's just. You [00:35:00] know, it's them. Um, I don't think that we're, we're going into an era in terms of, of healthcare where patients are highly educated, they have access to all of the same tools that clinicians have access to, and they use it, you know, they will literally, you know, sometimes I, I have seen patients in my clinic come in with.
Detailed files of their situation, and they're not, they're lay people, right, but they have highly educated themselves on their situation and what's going on and what it is that they need, and they can ask and answer questions that some medical doctors cannot even. Understand yet, you know, so we have to be also very mindful of the fact that the more that somebody educates themselves, the better they're going to be able to advocate for themselves.
And I think that in this [00:36:00] conversation of trying to get pregnant over 40, it's so, so important because time is finite. It is essential that you don't just keep applying the same strategy, hoping for a different resolve, but that. Understand what are the options available to me in my situation and how best to stage those things in such a way that's actually going to benefit me the patient in the best possible way.
And if medications are a part of that, and if surgeries a part of that, and if something else needs to be brought in as a part of that strategy, then it's much better that their clinician is able to guide that process. Then the patient tries to make these decisions and, and put these things together on their own and end up in the complete wrong place that they didn't intend as a result of not having that kind of support.
So I think that there's a lot there to, to disentangle, but there's, these [00:37:00] are all very important considerations, particularly when all the most patients over 40 are going to hear is, you're running outta time. You need to hurry up and do IVF. And it's like, well actually. I think that there's a whole lot more to it that, you know, than just continuing to apply more treatment when we don't understand why treatment is failing.
'cause it's age is a proxy. It's a proxy for the underlying metabolic factors that are getting in the way. To the healthiest possible outcome, which is, you know, the normal outcome that we are wanting to see when it comes to fertility is you have sex, you get pregnant, you have a baby, we're done. We're no longer having this conversation.
Anything other than that means that you may have investigated some, but there are still missing information. You need to arrive at to be able to transform results. So that's an important consideration for patients in this kind of situation that I, I have to say, [00:38:00] it's one of the most important things in my clinic is understanding why that's, you know, my fertile method that we've been using for the last 24 years.
The f infertile is, is not what you think it's actually fact finding. You know, it's, that's the first step. So it's really important.
Yeah, for sure. And it, it's true. I agree with you. You, you first start with what you can do. Rather than going from zero to a hundred and then going straight for like the hardest medication, which I find happens a lot. And so this is
Oh gosh.
very, it's very important. And from a Chinese medicine perspective, we look at the spleen and stomach and we want the digestive system to be optimal.
You don't wanna rush to do something too strong. You need to take the steps, the proper steps. You can't jump from like, um, no foundation to like the third floor or whatever, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and this is the other thing too, is that the escalation of what's required, there is a timing for all of [00:39:00] that, right? And so understanding where someone is to where they need to be, but understanding what are the steps that they need to get there is critically important.
Otherwise, we end up with more of the same. And you know, more of the same usually means no baby. And that obviously is not the outcome that patients are looking for.
So now I, I definitely wanna get to this, um, topic because it's exciting, new and exciting news that you've had, which is that you're currently undergoing or, or working on a clinical trial. And I'd love for you to, you're gonna explain it much better than me, so.
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, look, you know, I have been going on this kind of scientific joy ride for the last seven years. Um, finally I've graduated from my master's in public health at Harvard, and that was where we did our first study of my patient results. You know, like we had a, a study of. 544 patients going through our treatment and figured out that the live birth rate is [00:40:00] 78.8% and lots of other really interesting things out of that.
And that weed my appetite for understanding more about, you know, how to really answer scientific questions that are gonna benefit my patients. And so I went into the Doctor of Public Health program at Harvard and I'm gradu about to graduate. Yay
Yay. That's
Cannot. Yeah, so May next year is, is my deadline. Um, but as a result, you know, part of what I wanted to really, um, skill up on was running clinical trials.
And so I'm running a clinical trial on testing and intervention, uh, specifically. Focused on how it impacts infertility related trauma, grief and distress. So it's, it's basically a writing intervention where people have a prompt that is the guided prompts. Um, we have two groups. Everybody gets the intervention at the end of the [00:41:00] study, but, um, ultimately looking at, you know, there's a lot of evidence that supports.
In the way that we obviously are, are testing. And the impact in chronic diseases on the emotional component of how people experience their situation. Certainly we know that infertility is a trauma inducing event, right? And so figuring out ways, and unfortunately, even though that is the case, you know, a lot of times people don't.
Get given any kind of emotional support through very difficult, challenging fertility journeys. And so I wanted to really look at something that I have been using with my patients for many years and test it in a way that, you know, I already knew that there was some benefit because otherwise I wouldn't have gone into, you know, doing this particular trial.
But, um, we really are looking at, you know, what is the effect for people who really do self-report [00:42:00] with, you know, a high level of distress on their fertility journey. How can we, you know, is there a way to actually help them to, to reduce that, um, that level of the stress and that level of, of trauma reaction and the, the feelings of grief through the journey.
And, uh, and if so. Is that a sustainable effect? So that's really, these are the questions that this study, uh, aiming to answer. It's called the Inspire Study. Uh, and people can go to Inspire Study online. So, um, that, I'm sure you will put that in the show notes, but. Via study online, we're still recruiting.
We need 220 females for this study. And the reason that we actually chose females only for this particular study is because we wanted to not have to disentangle the effect that could be differential between men and women. But you know, I have a hunch that [00:43:00] the same effect that we would experience in, in terms of improvements in women would be.
Derived in men as well. And I think that it's even a, a, a more important study to be honest, because often if women don't get the support, the emotional support men get it even less. Right? And so, you know, that might be a future study that we'll be recruiting for at sometime down the track, but for now, females over 18 who might be interested in addressing some of their emotional, you know, challenges through the fertility journey.
Can go to Inspire study.online and get more information.
That's so exciting and I'm very curious to see your findings. Um, which I know it takes time. Everything takes time. It's like really something that you have to follow and, um, but I will be sharing this in the. Of show notes and I'll be also sharing it with my own patients.
Amazing.
exciting thing.
And anything that you can do really to give tools to people going through the fertility journey, it could be [00:44:00] so confusing for so many people. And, uh, it, it really is. We we're talking about this before in the, like before the show, is that. A lot of this, and you had mentioned that, uh, people don't even realize that they need it. They don't even think about it because anything that really comes down to mindset or emotions can feel very abstract. And when you're already in that state of mind, it's really hard to see how to get out of that. So having the tools or something that makes it a little bit more digestible or manageable in any way can help so many people.
Tremendously.
Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause my patient this morning was saying this to me. She literally was like, you know, and she had gone through 12, imagine 12 failed IVF cycles and four miscarriages.
terrible.
And, uh, and she said, she said, I didn't realize until I got into your program, I didn't realize how much I was [00:45:00] holding in terms of trauma and in terms of, you know, how much I needed emotional support.
And it's a, it's an experience that, you know, my doctoral chair, the, the chair of my doctoral, uh, committee is um, is an obstetrician gynecologist. She's actually the primary investigator of the Apple Women's Health Study and. An obstetrician gynecologist, and it's really interesting because we were talking about, you know, this particular study and I, and obviously being part of her lab, I was presenting it to the team and one of the big pieces of conversation about it was the fact that so much of the journey that people go through in terms of infertility is emotionally unsupported, you know?
She's extremely excited. 'cause you know, she works at the MG MDH, um, the, the Massachusetts General Hospital here in Boston and she is really excited to be able to, depending on the results, to be able to give [00:46:00] this as a tool for her patients and, and the patients in the, in the hospital, you know, going through IVF to be able to utilize 'cause it's so easy, so easy to apply tool.
It's very effective and so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see results. I'm very excited as well.
Yeah. Well I'm very excited and I definitely wanna be following up on you and I'll be checking it out, um, as it goes. So if you ever have any updates,
Absolutely we could actually do a podcast, um, a show on taking people through the intervention. So
Oh, that would be awesome. Amazing. Yeah, that would be really cool.
let's do it.
yeah, so great. So if anybody wants to check it out, I will have that in the episode notes. um, of course, as always, I really enjoy talking to you. I feel like I learned so much. You have such a great perspective that really has like a foot in both worlds, which I find to be [00:47:00] tremendously impactful. not just having one perspective, you know, really understanding the science and kind of like looking through and working through the data and then also having a holistic perspective on the different modalities can
Thank. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for helping share the word. I think it's such an important thing that we do this, so thank you.
Yeah. Thank you so much Gabriela.

Michelle Oravitz 1/12/26 Michelle Oravitz 1/12/26

Ep 369 The Fertility Red Flag Hiding in Your Mouth

Discover how your oral health may be the hidden factor affecting your fertility. In this episode, biological dentist Dr. Toni Engram explains how inflammation, mercury fillings, fluoride, and hidden dental infections can influence hormones, autoimmune conditions, and pregnancy outcomes. Learn root cause strategies, safer dental practices, and the importance of preconception dentistry for optimizing your fertility journey.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by biological dentist and integrative health coach Dr. Toni Engram (@drtoniengram) to uncover one of the most overlooked foundations of reproductive health: your mouth.

Most people do not realize that oral health is deeply connected to inflammation, autoimmune conditions, and fertility challenges. In this eye opening conversation, Dr. Toni explains how hidden infections, gum disease, mercury fillings, and even everyday products like fluoride can quietly impact hormones, gut health, thyroid function, and pregnancy outcomes.

We dive into the science behind biological dentistry, the truth about fluoride, safer approaches to dental procedures, how the oral microbiome affects your fertility, and why preconception dentistry is one of the most powerful yet underutilized steps for preparing the body for pregnancy.

If you have been working on your fertility, supporting your gut, addressing autoimmune conditions, or simply trying to reduce inflammation and support your hormones, this episode is a must listen. Your mouth may be the missing piece.

Key Takeaways:

Oral health is directly connected to inflammation, gut health, and autoimmune conditions.
Mercury fillings and hidden infections can trigger systemic inflammation and impact fertility.
Biological dentistry uses safer materials and focuses on root cause healing.
Fluoride carries risks including thyroid disruption and neurotoxicity.
Xylitol, hydroxyapatite, and simple daily habits can safely support remineralization and overall oral health.

Links and resources:

Visit Dr. Toni’s Website:
http://flourish.dental

Follow her on social media:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drtoniengram/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/flourishdentalboutique/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@yourholisticdentist
X: https://x.com/DentalFlourish
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@flourishdentalboutique
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-toni-engram-11081731/

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Toni.
Toni: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Michelle: Me too. So I always like to start with an origin story, and I'd love for you to share, um, how you got into your work, but very customized, um, dentistry.
Toni: Yeah. Not your traditional dentist, that's for sure. Um, the, how I got into dentistry is a, it's a much more boring story.
Toni: So we'll get
to the interesting
Michelle: I just wanted, I just wanted to help people and, and dentistry seemed like a, a more family friendly version of healthcare than going to med school. So that's how I became a dentist.
And man, I just wanted to be a normal dentist, that's all. Um, wanted to have a normal practice in a normal town. But thankfully God had other plans for me, and it was around 2011. I had a toddler at home. I was working [00:01:00] full-time as an associate dentist at another practice. I was in the process of opening my first practice from scratch, you know, just me solo by myself doing all the construction and that sort of thing.
And I just got super, super sick. Um, I wasn't eating well, obviously. I wasn't sleeping well. I was doing all the, the normal type A things that one does, uh, which worked for me when I, when I was younger, but then all of a sudden just did not, and I had all kinds of, you know, unfortunate digestive issues that doctors kind of blew off for a while.
And, uh, just told me it was IBS for the longest time. And finally, uh, my symptoms got so bad that. That even they couldn't ignore them or push them aside anymore. And so I was diagnosed with Crohn's colitis, which is just an autoimmune condition that affects the gut and was given, you know, just the [00:02:00] very typical.
Western Medicine Answer was, here's your list of medications that you're gonna need to take and you're gonna need to be on these for forever. Uh, or until they stop working. Uh, and oh yeah, by the way, um, there's a good chance that you're gonna need surgery at some point to remove all or part of your colon.
Toni: I've heard that before. That's so crazy.
Michelle: Uh, and I chi, you know, there were, I had no holistic biological background. That was not in my background at all. I had a healthcare background. My family is in western medicine. Like that's how I grew up. Um, and so, but I knew that that just was not at the. That couldn't be true. I was too busy for all that.
Toni: Yeah.
Michelle: I had too much to do. Um, so, and I even asked the question. I was like, well, what do I do to actually get, well, how do I heal this and get rid of this? What do I need to eat differently or do differently? And the gastroenterologist looked at me, um, and [00:03:00] this digestive illness that I had that was impacting my gut, he literally looked at me and said, Toni, your diet has nothing to do with this.
Toni: Wow.
Michelle: Yeah,
Toni: says a lot about just
Michelle: and that
Toni: current affairs. Yeah.
Michelle: seriously, um, so I thought that that was. Quite frankly. And, um, I took the medications 'cause I was, like I said, I was sick. Um, and so I did, I did steroids, I did the medications, the, the whole shebang. 'cause I needed to stop the, stop the process. And I was scared not to do what they said.
So took the medications. Thankfully went into remission really quickly on the medications. Um, but during that time I started going down all the rabbit holes online, like, how do I actually get, well, how do I heal my gut? And that was where the magic happened because, uh, I didn't have any guidance. I [00:04:00] didn't know about functional medicine at the time, but as I was learning how to actually heal myself and get well, I realized.
Man, Crohn's disease, it's all about inflammation and a dysbiosis in the gut. What do I treat every day? I help people with tooth decay and gum disease, which is all about inflammation and a dysbiosis in the very first part of your gut, which is your mouth. So I knew that if I could figure out how to get well myself.
That I had an obligation to figure out the same thing for my patients too, and to be able to help them get well, because I gotta tell you, the normal like drill and fill model of dentistry was frustrating. It was, it burned me out because people weren't getting well. Um, and so once I started. Really seeing this root cause dentistry, you know, how can we actually [00:05:00] heal patients and help them get well?
Not only did I start feeling better, but my patients started getting better and, and we're learning every day, um, how to get to these root cause issues to really achieve true healing that starts in the mouth, but really is a, a whole body phenomenon.
Toni: It really is, and it was, uh, fascinating for me to learn once I started specializing in fertility, just how important it is for fertility health. I mean.
And it is, I mean, it's important for a lot of things, but that's kind of like, um, I guess fertility health is sort of the end result of, you know, what can co what can happen if you're taking care of in, you know, inflammation.
And there's so many, the gut microbiome, like there's so many aspects that impact it, but it's almost secondary to that.
And talk to me about, um. What is it, how, how do you like, take [00:06:00] dentistry and make it root cause? And I'm assuming that that was how you became a biological dentist. And for people who have never heard of that, can you walk us through like what that means?
Um, because I think that it's, it's a new concept and it doesn't seem like it's mainstream, so
it might be like new for people to hear.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And it, so a lot of people use the term holistic dentistry. We use the term biological dentistry. It's really just a more holistic, it's like the functional medicine. Version of dentistry. So what that means in real life is we are trying to minimize toxins that we use. So we're not using any of those old silver fillings that are half mercury.
Um, I'm not using any fluoride in the practice. We can talk about that later because fluoride is a pretty potent toxin. Um, we are eliminating all of those things in the practice [00:07:00] and. Focusing first on prevention. You know, if we can focus on diet and actually having a healthy terrain, that's what we wanna do.
We wanna help you avoid the, the drills and the, and the scalpels in my chair if we, if we can, if at all possible. Uh, but when we do need to intervene, we wanna do so strategically. We wanna do so gently and safely for the body in a way that promotes healing rather than adding another toxic burden to the body.
So we're very intentional with our materials, very intentional with, with what we use. Um, we do a lot of nutrition coaching. We have a, a full accelerator program where we work on resetting the, the oral microbiome to get it back to a healthy state. And again, really just testing and getting to the root cause of tooth decay and gum [00:08:00] disease and other oral diseases, and then making sure that nothing in the mouth is impairing the rest of your health.
Including fertility, uh, making sure that nothing going on in your mouth. So, you know, we're looking for hidden infections. We're looking at those old root canals, we're looking at heavy metals, all of those things to make sure that the human terrain, the biological terrain of your body is. Well prepared for all levels of health.
Um, and that's why I'm so excited to talk to your audience because fertility is such like, we just need this foundation, this preconception foundation so that you can have healthy pregnancies when you want to.
Toni: I think this topic is like so important. I can't even underscore how important it is because. That is, uh, you said something that was really key is that digestion [00:09:00] starts in the mouth.
And I think that a lot of people think about like gut. They, they think about it straight to the gut. Yes, it happens there too, but it starts in the mouth.
And I talk often about like chewing, even chewing and, you know, but this kind of sounds like conscious dentistry. It's like becoming conscious that, and I think that that's really key is, is when any kind of medicine or a medical form. Not only treats what it treats but then looks at the neighboring or, um, affecting aspects that are surrounding whatever it is, and not seeing it as an island because our bodies just don't work that way.
We're not islands and we don't have compartments that are separate from the rest of the body.
So I really, really. Love that you combine it and you really look at like everything from diet. And then one of the ways that, like, one of the reasons I've heard of biological dentistry is because my husband [00:10:00] has a mercury filling that's getting a little loose.
And I was afraid because I know that that could be very dangerous in a regular dentistry setting be if you don't know how to remove it. And there there's a certain way to remove it. And I know that with biological dentistry there's a very, like, typically they'll know how to remove mercury in a safe way.
Am I correct?
Michelle: You are absolutely correct and if I, you know, I have this discussion all the time with people sometimes, sometimes people just can't find a biological dentist and they want to, and they're like, oh, well, can I just go to my regular dentist? So it. If you do nothing else at a biological dentist, I would say.
100% do not have your amalgam fillings removed at a traditional standard dentist only have your amalgam fillings removed with someone who knows the SMART protocol. And SMART just stands for safe mercury [00:11:00] amalgam removal technique
because you are absolutely 100% right. So those fillings, the, the old silver fillings, they are half mercury and half.
Other stuff, other metals, um, when they are in the mouth, they, they used to, they taught us in school that the mercury was bound out, bound up inside the filling, and it stayed and it didn't leach or go anywhere. But what we know now is that anytime you apply heat or friction to one of those fillings, you'll get a tiny offgassing of mercury vapor every time.
So anytime you chew or grind your teeth at night. Or a drink, hot coffee, you're going to have a tiny little bit of mercury exposure,
which for, for. Many people for a long period of time was fine because our toxic buckets weren't quite so full as they are normally now. Um, we're seeing more and more people are sensitive to these things.
Our toxic buckets are full. [00:12:00] We just don't have the capacity to handle this as much as we did in the past. Um, so you can imagine if heat and friction releases mercury vapor into the body. And Mercury likes to get stored in the brain, in organs, in fatty tissue. Uh, it doesn't just, it's not just all processed.
It likes to stay and just hang around. So when one of those fillings needs to be replaced, your dentist is going to take a high speed drill at 800,000 RPMs. What do you think is going to happen in terms of the friction and the heat that's generated from the procedure itself? It is massive. And we've seen the dentist who have done testing on this have seen that it covers the mercury vapor can be spread throughout the entire room.
So the patient is getting a very large exposure because the, all the pink stuff in your mouth is very, very absorbent. So you're gonna get a huge exposure, [00:13:00] but also the dentist and the assistant is going to get a large exposure. So then it become like, to me it's. Not just a patient issue, it's also an ethical employer issue.
It like, how are we going to expose our team, our assistants, to mercury vapor, who are typically females in their childbearing years, who are going to be the most sensitive to that toxic exposure? So. For all of those reasons, the, the I-A-O-M-T, which is a group of biological dentists, developed these protocols to minimize that mercury exposure during the procedure itself.
And so these protocols have different ways of, multiple ways of isolating the tooth. Filtering the air in the room, uh, functioning all of the, the vapor. We use special mercury vapor, um, absorbance and vacuums in the room. [00:14:00] Um, making sure that the patient and that the team is covered head to toe. It. We have layers and layers of protection that we use when we're taking these fillings out.
And then we're, you know, working with. Naturopaths and functional medicine doctors to make sure that the patient's supported on the detox side of things as well, both before and after the procedure. So I think it's highly important that if you need an amalgam filling, replaced, that you do so with a biological dentist or someone who is smart, certified and knows what those protocols are.
Toni: Yes. Super important and of course. You don't want mercury when you're trying to conceive. You want it like out of your body as quick as possible. So I think that that's just really important. And then talk to the audience about autoimmune and how your, your dental health can impact autoimmunity and inflammation really systemically.
Michelle: It's [00:15:00] such a huge issue because autoimmunity is, is. At its core, it's inflammatory. And so most of the things that happen in your mouth are inflammatory thing, like that's where things go wrong. It's with the inflammatory response. And so we see it well established in the scientific literature now that any kind of oral health issue, like an increase in gum disease, so gum bleeding, um, gingivitis.
All of that is correlated with higher rates of autoimmune conditions of all kinds. So that's Crohn's disease, that's rheumatoid arthritis, that's Hashimoto's, that's all of it. Um, and we also notice that if you are ha, if you already have an autoimmune condition, when you have a flare up, sometimes that will show up in your mouth.
Often it will show up in your mouth. And so these are conversations that. We need to [00:16:00] be having as a, a healthcare team, because if I see something, if I've got a patient who I know has an autoimmune diagnosis of some kind, if I see an uptick in their bleeding, that's the first question I'm asking is, how's your rheumatoid arthritis?
How are you doing lately? Are you, are you having a flare? If not, then you might be about to have a flare so that they can. Take notice, take action. Make sure that they're doing what they need to do to take care of themselves from a whole body perspective.
Toni: And if they have an active infection, um, I've seen, you know, with my patients, one, um, one patient had an active infection because there was, um, basically a cavitation
and um, an old surgery of, uh, her wisdom teeth removed and, and,
she had autoimmune conditions. And then she resolved that and she almost immediately felt better overall.
Michelle: Isn't that fascinating? [00:17:00] Yeah, it makes such a huge difference. Such a huge difference. And you're right, that's an important point too. Um, you know that the easiest inflammatory thing in the mouth to see is gum disease. Um, but it's not just that there are infections that can be hiding around root canals, infections that can be hiding within the jawbone from where those wisdom teeth or any tooth has been removed.
Uh, if the bone just didn't heal properly in that site. Then the bone can literally become necrotic and then it creates an inflammatory response elsewhere in the
body. Because also, I mean, you would think, you know, the body's so, uh, focused on fighting this, so it's constantly like draining the body's immunity or energy.
Toni: And it can cause things to go haywire just 'cause it really does, uh, everything impacts everything in the
Michelle: Yes, for sense. Um, and then as far as fluoride, uh, it is a topic [00:18:00] that I think people really should know about. Uh, it's important to know that it is a neurotoxin. So I'd like for you to explain it from your expertise. Like why, um, like how it impacts the body and why, uh, like, why dentists use it. And why it's, um, wise to avoid it now that we know what we know.
Right now that we, now that we know better, it's time for us to do better. Um. So fluoride. Fluoride is still an effective tool against tooth decay, so it gets incorporated into the tooth enamel so that the crystalline structure of the enamel is harder with fluoride incorporated than without. Um, I. Many biological dentists, many of my peers feel like even that, that hardness is a little misleading and not necessarily an indication of a healthier tooth.
Um, but [00:19:00] that, that is nuanced and can be debated. Um, it does, it lowers the risk of cavities, but we really had. An over appreciation of the benefits of fluoride over the years. 'cause what we know now when we look back is yes, when fluoride first start started being added to the, to toothpaste and added to water, um, we did see a de decrease in the amount of tooth decay in the country. But then when you go back and you look at countries that did not fluoridate their water, you see the same decrease. So we can't necessarily give all the credit to fluoride in the water. Um, and what we also know is that fluoride is, it's more risky than we once thought. So it will compete with iodine in the thyroid.
So there's a, a thyroid risk to that. Um, most of my functional [00:20:00] medicine practitioners that refer, refer to me, that's one of the first thing that they want their patients off of. Is there fluoride, toothpaste, um, and fluoride? Anything in the water. 'cause with, when it's in the water, you can't really control the dose or how much you're
getting. Um, so we know it's not great for the thyroid. It's not great for the pineal gland. There's evidence that it can calcify
the pineal gland, which is we will gland right up here. Um, and the scariest one to me is the impact on our kids. So, and this is.
Toni: The IQ
Michelle: This is not just infant exposure, this is maternal exposure.
Also, they are finding more and more evidence that increasing exposure to fluoride is correlated with a decrease IQ in our kids, which is terrifying to me.
Um, and so upsetting because all along it. Their [00:21:00] justification for adding fluoride to the water, it goes against everything that they taught us in school.
So we were taught that, that if you give something to someone to treat an illness, that that is a medication. So fluoride is added to the water to treat cavities. So it is a medication. Don't let them tell you otherwise. It is a medication. Um. I was also taught that in order to give someone a medication, you have to have proper informed consent.
No one has the ability to consent to water fluoridation. It's in your water. It's everywhere. So it, I, I have major ethical problems with water fluoridation. Um, and especially knowing that you cannot control the dose when it's in the water. So, 70-year-old grandpa that's drinking one glass of water a day, his daily dose of fluoride is going to be [00:22:00] vastly different than an infant who is drinking formula out of a bottle.
And that's their, their complete diet is formula made with tap water that's fluoridated. Dose is hugely different. So I have major, major ethical issues with water fluoridation and so fluoride in, in general, uh, is off of my recommended list. We don't need it. I have other tools that I can use and other things that I can.
Coach you on and point you towards where you don't have to use fluoride to prevent cavities. We can do it other ways. Um, and so I will be very, very glad if the, the current health and human services, uh, division is able to end that countrywide. Right now it's just local government by local government.
Local government decision, but it would, it would be just amazing if we could end that medical treatment as a whole.
Toni: [00:23:00] Yeah, because it's not like, um. People can't go out and buy flu, uh, fluoridated toothpaste
if they wanted to, um, on their own free will. So,
Michelle: Yes. With informed consent, you know, with guidance from their personal dentist.
Toni: Yeah. And then as far as re mineralization, I know that there's, um, they do have, like you can see sometimes you'll find a toothpaste that have another, I forget what it's called.
It's like a heart's pronounced.
Name, um, of
Michelle: calcium hydroxy, What is it?
calcium hydroxy appetite.
Toni: So,
but then I was reading about that and because it's like nano, um, that can have, uh, issues too. So I, I have no idea. Um, so what are other ways that people can remineralize if they have very, like, clear, you know, a little bit more like, um, I don't wanna say see through, but like they can see that their teeth are not like [00:24:00] super solid.
Michelle: Yeah, it's, and I will tell you it's there, there's some sort of weird information war going on where what's, what's healthy is not healthy. What's toxic is not toxic. It, it's very strange and confusing. So what I will tell you is there are two ingredients that are the most effective. Uh, aside from fluoride at remineralizing teeth and those two ingredients are calcium, hydroxyapatite, and xylitol, they have a great track record of effectiveness that rivals fluoride in terms of effectiveness
and what I you said,
And xylitol?
Toni: that, that's in gum. I have xylitol
gum.
Michelle: Yes. Yeah. It's in a lot of the more natural toothpaste too. Um. Great data on it. And for both of those ingredients, they [00:25:00] have now been studied for decades and they have decades of good safety records, which is more than we can say for fluoride. So in terms of safety and effectiveness, those two ingredients are
Toni: They could both help with the Remi Remineralization. So
probably the easiest way is either having, um, something with xylitol, you know, toothpaste or, or gum.
Just chewing gum with that would help.
Michelle: Absolutely. So xylitol is cool. It works in two different ways, so it immediately will increase the pH of your saliva so you can stop that acid attack of whatever you just ate or drank. Um, but over time. The bacteria that cause cavities will ingest it because it's close enough in structure to sugar.
It's a sugar alcohol from plants. Uh, they'll ingest it, but they can't metabolize it. So those bacteria will start to slip [00:26:00] off the teeth and you'll get this really nice gentle shift in the microbiome over time. Um, so it's fantastic. It's most effective when you use it five times a day. Which seems like a lot, but that's not hard at all because most of them run, they run out of, um, flavor in two seconds, so, you know, it's very easy to want another one.
Right. That's so true. That is so true. Uh, so usually what I'll do is I'll have my patients do a remineralizing toothpaste morning and night. And so that'll have hydroxyapatite and xylitol typically. Um, and then pick whatever their favorite xylitol product is, whether it's a spray or candy or mints. And I'll have them do that after meals.
Um, and that really gives us the most bang for the buck that's so easy
to do. Um, and I, I love that you brought up there is controversy around hydroxyapatite as an ingredient. Um, I [00:27:00] love, love, love that we can have the discussion because I think the discussion is what's often been missing in the fluoride con conversation.
Uh, we're allowed to discuss it seemed like. Um. So it's a valid discussion to have. And some of the worry is around the smaller particle, the smaller nanoparticle, hydroxy appetite and certain shapes of these nanoparticles. 'cause sometimes they were like needle shaped, a little pointier. So the concern was can these cross the blood brain barrier?
Can they, there are nanoparticles, so where else can they go besides the teeth? And what we know based on what's actually. Quite a lot of research right now. Um, and, and this has been very well studied by the authorities in the European Union who tend to be a little stricter on the products that they will, um, that they will let the public have access to and what they won't.
So the European [00:28:00] Union, European Union, um, the work that they did, the research that they did. Found, and this is very, very recent, um, they, where they originally had co concerns with the needle shaped nanoparticles, they were able to find that if it was a nanoparticle that was spherical or cylindrical or rod shaped, that these particles were just fine.
They, they dissolved in the digestive system really quickly if they were swallowed. They, if they were absorbed into the bloodstream, it was very little and it dissociated into its subsequent particles very easily. Um. It passed very easily. There was nothing significant crossing the blood brain barrier.
So all of their research found that it, it is really very safe. Um, so is there as much research on hydroxy appetite as fluoride? [00:29:00] No, not quite as much. But also I would say that the, the tilt of the fluoride research was always to prove fluoride is effective. It was. Only more recently focused on the safety of fluoride, whereas Hydroxyapatite has, for one, it's been around for a long time, even in nano form.
It's been used overseas for 40 years now. Um, and it has always been, all of the research has been focused on safety and effectiveness, so I feel like it, we're having more of these important conversations, and so far it's doing very, very well. And I'm much more comfortable with the safety profile of Hydroxyapatite than I am with fluoride.
Toni: Got it. And so does it only come in nano uh, form or does it have other ones? And which one do you recommend or does it make a difference?
Michelle: It, that's a good question too, because it, um, the [00:30:00] micro form is going to be a larger particle than the nano form, so you can get microparticle hydroxyapatite. Usually if it's micro hydroxyapatite, they're just not going to say. They'll just say calcium hydroxyapatite on the ingredient list. Um, if it's nano, they'll often say it, uh, or it'll be somewhere on their website or in their marketing materials that it's a nanoparticle.
So you'll, you're, you can usually
tell, um, the micro particle, those larger particles will still be effective at remineralizing, but not as much. The nanoparticle absorbs into the tooth and is able to be incorporated into the tooth structure more easily because it's smaller.
Toni: Um, I remember getting a powder,
uh, where you put, basically you wet your toothbrush, you put it in the powder, and then you brush your teeth.
And that as a remi, mineral mineralization,
because I don't have fluoride in my toothpaste,[00:31:00]
so I wanted to have something else. Um, is that something that you recommend, like something like that?
Words of
powder or, yeah.
Michelle: Those are great. The only thing that I would be careful of is, um, like when you're using just straight powders. 'cause I've got a lot of patients who have lots of allergies and chemical sensitivities. So if you're using just a straight powder that's like straight baking soda or something, then I would just say be careful with the, the grittiness used frequently.
Um, so sometimes. If it's just a plain, single ingredient powder, sometimes it can be a little too abrasive for the enamel. But if you're using like a specific tooth powder, it's usually going to be, um, bentonite clay or activated charcoal. And it's a lot of times going to have some kind of calcium product, whether it's hydroxyapatite or calcium carbonate.
And those are typically fine. Typically the powders are, um. Are [00:32:00] finer and are less gritty, so totally fine. Um, but if you see any kind of irritation at all, then you might wanna back up just a little bit and do it, you know, maybe three times a week alternate to where you're not being just too aggressive with the gum tissue and with the enamel,
Toni: Or do toothpaste.
Michelle: or do Yeah. Um, awesome. And then root canals, you had talked about that. Um.
Mm-hmm.
Toni: As it impacts, I guess, inflammation.
Um, is it kind of similar to what we talked about or is there anything else that people should be aware of?
Michelle: I mean, they are, root canals are their own special beast because it is, it's so great if you are in pain and hurting a root canal is such a great way to keep a tooth and not feel like you wanna punch somebody's eye out for for a while. If you've ever had a toothache, it can be [00:33:00] horrible. Um, it can send people to the emergency room and does frequently all the time.
So while it can save the structure of the tooth and often the function of the tooth, it does come with its downsides. And so one of the downside of removing the nerve of the tooth is that you also remove the blood supply. And when you remove the blood supply, then the whole microbiome in the area changes.
In and around
the tooth. So instead of the, the normal bacteria that's automatically going to be there without blood to provide oxygen, now it's just the creepy crawly bacteria. The ones who don't like, like oxygen that are going to be there hanging out. And again, kind of like. With mercury, with our toxic bucket, like for, for many people it's just fine and they don't notice any ill effects from that at all.
But it is, it does create this [00:34:00] mild inflammatory response. It could be an immune system trigger for some people and for some people it can, it can be the thing that might trigger other symptoms elsewhere in the body. Um. Not saying that it's the direct cause or the one and only cause or anything like that, but it can be a trigger just like anything else.
That's a toxic exposure. So it's important to know that it will create a stress on the body. It is adding to that toxic bucket, not taking away. Um, and so I think it's something that. We should embark on as a, as a patient, it's something that we should embark on carefully and knowing all of our options, and it's something that we can try to avoid if possible.
Um, and know that there are other options. It, it's just that sometimes those options aren't fun. When it comes down to it. Sometimes it really is a choice between. Doing a root [00:35:00] canal or losing a tooth and then deciding, you know, whether you wanna just have a missing tooth or have an implant or something like that.
So it's not an easy discussion that we have, but it's one that unfortunately we have to have with patients every day.
Toni: And biological dentists, they pretty much do the same things.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Toni: It's just, um, in a different way. So like if
somebody needed, um, a bridge or, you know, just other dental work, you guys
offer that. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah. We still do traditional dental procedures, but there's that where we know it's going to. Be a burden on the body. We try to do less of them. Um, and root canals is one of those things where you probably will see some difference among different biological dentists, um, because it is a specialized procedure.
Michelle: So my philosophy in my office is that if I'm, first, I'm going to give you proper informed consent. [00:36:00] So I'm going to give you the pros, the cons, tell you all your different options, tell you what what's likely to happen if you do nothing at all. Um, and then if you decide that you want to have a root canal done, again, it's your decision, it's not mine.
Um, then I want that to be the best root canal possible, and that means it's done. With a microscope with, you know, more than just normal, general dentist equipment. It's done with a microscope and it's done in the hands of a specialist and not in the hands of me, your general dentist. So I have one group of endodontists and in my, in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.
That, um, that uses ozone and is more holistically minded. And so I have one office that I will refer my patients to when they choose to have root canals and they do a fantastic job.
Toni: And then my other question actually is, um, what are your thoughts [00:37:00] on, uh, x-rays? Because I know that you guys are aware a lot more than, you know, the mainstream.
Uh, And I would imagine that would like this pushed back a lot. Yes. to me about that. The benefits, uh, you know, it's kind of, it's always benefit versus risk.
Michelle: Um, yes, it is always benefit versus rescuer. Absolutely. Right. Um, so we still, uh, for one, there's the legal issue is I am still a dentist with a license, and so I still have to practice according to the standard of care. And so if I saw you without. The, you know, a minimal appropriate amount of x-rays, then I wouldn't be doing my job and my license would literally be at risk.
Um. So that is, that is one part of the conversation, but also just the ethical, and I wanna take care of my patients question is I really can't see a lot of these issues [00:38:00] without some kind of x-rays. So we, we talk through different options on how can we minimize it, how can we make it work to where it's not so many, um, we can have these conversations, but we, but it has to be a conversation.
I can't. Not take any x-rays ever, or I, I wouldn't be doing my job and I would be risking my license. And as much as I love you, I need to keep my license so I can keep helping you. Um, so when patients need x-rays, especially if there are are other health concerns or they're worried about the radiation exposure, then we go through, um, different things that you can do to mitigate the exposure to radiation.
So making sure that you stay hydrated is first and foremost, that's most important. Um, antioxidants are your friend because radiation is oxidizing to the body. Um, and so we want to have antioxidants that [00:39:00] we then have to support the body afterwards. So that means, you know, if we're talking. Minimalist then eating lots of brightly colored fruits and vegetables is a great way to go.
If you want to supplement. Then we carry some supplements in the office, and those, again are, are really good antioxidants. So liposomal vitamin C, um, glutathione and, uh, we use a, a form of vitamin E, a delta fraction. Tocotrienols is an antioxidant that we keep in the office. And then when we can get it,
it's a little harder to, for fertility too,
so there you go.
Yes. We gotta protect ourselves from the free radical damage and, uh, and sometimes we can find homeopathics and sometimes we can't. But, uh, but homeopathics are another option too. It's the, the kind that was most readily available is a little harder to find now. So we have to, we don't always have it in stock ourselves.
Toni: Yeah. [00:40:00] Interesting. And then, um, what are just some tips that you can give people? Like if they're listening, what are some things that people should really consider? Either on a daily basis on taking care of their teeth, flossing, anything that you can kind of give also one, one other thing is, uh, I know that certain flosses, the actual or the picks they have like, um, a type of plastic that's not great,
you know, so there's all kinds of things I guess you can talk about, but what comes
Michelle: If you can, if you can find a, a more natural fiber floss, then that is ideal. Um. If you can avoid the, the ones that are like Teflon coated, then that would be ideal. Some of the, the floss sticks are actually coated in fluoride, believe it or not. Um, so if you are wanting to avoid fluoride, just know that you gotta look at packaging.
'cause sometimes even your floss has fluoride in it, stuff is everywhere. Um. [00:41:00] So, so yes, getting something to clean in between your teeth is crucial. More than just brushing. You've gotta have something in between your teeth. Um, if it's, if you just know, if you just know yourself and you know that flossing is not gonna happen, then then get a water pick.
A water pick will change your
Toni: Are there ones you recommend? Because brands like, um, 'cause I've looked into them and my daughter's very resistant to the one that I picked. She's like, it's really annoying. It's hard to do. And so, I don't know, is there anything that you recommend?
Michelle: How old is your daughter? She must
Toni: She's a teenager. Um, you know, it's like you would think she's old enough to like figure it out, but you know, doesn't always happen.
Michelle: Yeah. I have two teenage girls. I completely understand. Uh, so I like the water pick brand. Uh, but really it. Whatever you can find that is, is used is going to be my favorite, but the water pick brand works [00:42:00] really well.
Um, let's see. Other question? Oh, I would say, you know, aside from everything else, uh, if most of your audience is concerned with fertility and making sure that we have a healthy pregnancy.
I really, really, really want everyone to understand the concept of preconception dentistry because I really believe that preconception dentistry is so vitally important. If you are, if you are struggling with fertility, struggling to keep a pregnancy to term, then absolutely it's not too late. Please come and, and see a, a dentist, a, a biological dentist if you can, because so many of these issues that are impacting pregnancy are directly related to what's going on in your mouth.
There are specific bacteria that we will find on a saliva test that's really easy to do. [00:43:00] There are specific strains of bacteria that are directly correlated to fertility problems, a higher rate of miscarriage, um, to low birth weight. Um. All of these things that are just so, so important. And if you can get ahead of it and if you can take care of before you're trying to get pregnant, then that is ideal.
Um, because once you, once you do get pregnant, then it's, we still need to take care of things, but the, then we have to worry about timing of what we're doing. You know, we don't wanna do certain things in first trimester if we can't like it. It gets more complicated after you're pregnant. So preconception care.
I just hope everyone, everyone remembers it. That if nothing else from today is a smart, certified dentist for your amalgam fillings and preconception care, uh, to make sure that your mouth is healthy and supports you having a [00:44:00] healthy pregnancy. Um, and then in terms of what you can do at home, it doesn't have to be complicated.
So a simple clean toothpaste is. Totally fine. You know, if it's got the, the fewer ingredients the better usually. So you don't need fluoride. You don't need a ton of like weird antimicrobials. You don't need to kill germs with your toothpaste. Just something simple. Is totally fine. Use something in between your teeth and then you don't need to have a mouthwash, especially if it's like a really strong alcohol based mouthwash that's like bright blue or bright
green. You don't need that stuff. Um, if you feel like you absolutely have to have a mouthwash, make your own, um, it could be literally just salt water that you keep in a little mason jar by your sink. That's one way to do it. Um, it could be salt water with a [00:45:00] little bit of baking soda and a little bit of powdered xylitol that you can keep by your sink, and that could be your mouthwash.
Like it doesn't need to be fancy. Um, uh, and really just keep it simple. Like everything, go back to basics, all, all the normal things and make sure that your, that your diet, your hydration, all those things are, are on point too.
Toni: And what are your thoughts on meme?
Michelle: I like it.
I like it. It can be effective. It's effective at soothing some of the inflammation and the gum tissue. So I like meme products and, and meme oil. Although I think, if I'm remembering right, it's been a while since I've used it. It doesn't taste all that No, you're right. Yeah. It's like a, it's like herbal medicine, but you know, it is, uh, it's an Ayurvedic, um,
Toni: uh, herbs and herb and it's really beneficial. But, um,
this is
Michelle: Kind of like oil pulling, like the, the traditional Ayurvedic method of oil [00:46:00] pulling is with sesame oil. Um, and ew, like I, I did it once just so I could. See what all the hype is about. That's the only method of oil pulling that's been studied in the literature. Uh, so I like the idea of oil pulling with coconut oil.
That is much more pleasant to the palette, much less disgusting in my personal opinion,
Toni: Yes.
Michelle: but it hasn't been studied as much. Right. so so also, and we've got cause it's like the idea is the same. It's really just getting oil to
Toni: kind of like remove any gunk
between your teeth,
Michelle: Yes. And coconut oil. Oil has its own benefits. It's antifungal it, all the good stuff. So yes,
Toni: Awesome. Well, they gotta start doing some studies on that.
Um, but this is great. This is such a, I think it's a really important topic that. Can often be overlooked. So thank you so much for your expertise and [00:47:00] great tips and uh, I'm sure a lot of people are learning so much from this, just listening to this.
So thank you so much Dr. Toni, and um,
Michelle: Oh, you're so welcome. it was a great conversation.
Thank you for having me.

Michelle Oravitz 1/5/26 Michelle Oravitz 1/5/26

Ep 368 The Unseen Intelligence Guiding Your Fertility Journey

In this hopeful solo episode, Michelle explores the unseen intelligence guiding your fertility journey. She shares real stories from her clinic, insights on how emotions and belief impact the body, and gentle reminders that lab numbers do not define your future. If you need reassurance and a renewed sense of trust in your body, this episode will bring comfort and clarity.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle offers a heartfelt dose of hope for anyone feeling discouraged, exhausted, or unsure on their fertility journey. Drawing from years of experience as a fertility acupuncturist and coach, Michelle shares powerful stories from her clinic. These stories include women who were told their chances were low, who received discouraging lab results, or who felt their bodies were failing them, yet still went on to conceive.

This episode explores the often overlooked unseen intelligence guiding your fertility. This includes the subtle signs, inner wisdom, emotional landscape, and spiritual connection that influence your body just as much as lab numbers do. Michelle also dives into the science behind belief and emotional states, referencing insights from cellular biologist Bruce Lipton and psychologist Dr. Lisa Miller to bridge the gap between spirituality and physiology.

If you are craving reassurance, perspective, and a reminder that your journey is still unfolding in ways you may not yet see, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways:

Your fertility journey is shaped by both the physical and the unseen. Numbers matter, but they are not the whole story.
Lab values are only a snapshot in time. They can and often do change.
Miraculous pregnancies can and do happen, even after discouraging diagnoses.
Emotional and spiritual alignment deeply influence your physiology and hormonal environment.
Belief, joy, and hope are not only comforting. They are biologically impactful.
Your body operates through an extraordinary intelligence that we are only beginning to understand.
Connecting with your spirit baby or inner guidance can open doors in unexpected ways.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

# 368 The Unseen Intelligence Guiding Your Fertility Journey
Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 368 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be bringing you a dose of hope. If you're on the fertility journey, I know that sometimes things can feel like you're really having to. Work extra hard to just hold on to some faith that something that hasn't yet happened will actually happen.
And I know that this can be one of the hardest challenges on the fertility journey. So if you find that you're feeling this way and you need a dose of hope, stay tuned.
[00:01:00]
Michelle Oravitz: So today I'm gonna actually talk really right from the heart as a fertility acupuncturist and fertility coach. So I've had many different clients and patients that I'm working with in my clinic who are trying to conceive, and many of these patients and clients have been trying for sometimes over five years, sometimes over two years, and sometimes just six months, and are still feeling this same feeling.
When is it going to happen? So I wanna talk about many different things and some of the things that I've seen and noticed as a practitioner. Some of the things that I've noticed as I was walking side by side with my patients and really going through the journey with them. I've had patients that have come to me for over a year and really felt the calling of their.
Spare baby, like really, really would get these incredible signs and would not know why they're [00:02:00] getting these signs and nothing is happening. And eventually those same people did in fact get pregnant, and I'm happy to announce that sometimes I get these amazing pictures of their babies that are healthy.
So. Even though I've been with them at those times that they felt it literally would be an impossible thing to happen. And some of these people have also gone to doctors and have been told that the only way they would work with them is if they got egg donor. Now, there's nothing wrong with egg donor, and many people actually do really well with finding an egg donor or an embryo donor.
Those specific people just felt like that was not gonna be their path. So I'm gonna talk a little bit more on the esoteric levels and aspects of the fertility journey and how sometimes things can be invisible. What is working can be invisible. And then some of the things that we think is so real, like the labs and the numbers, and [00:03:00] we put so much of our faith into that can be a snapshot in time and it can also not be the end all be all.
So today I'm gonna cover a lot of those aspects and really just give you a dose of hope because. I've seen so many cases where people were given diagnoses and also no hope by the practitioners and the team that they were working with. And now that is not to put down anybody on the team, and it's not to put down any doctors.
This is just what they are trained to work with. And sometimes what we're trained to work with is really one aspect of reality, which is our labs, but that doesn't mean that everything should hang on those numbers. Let me explain why. I recently had a patient, which I'm just amazed by myself, and believe it or not, even though I've seen pretty [00:04:00] amazing stories happen and I've seen people defy the odds, and what I mean by that is defy what they've been told as really being their projection or their predictions of their future.
Even though I've seen pretty miraculous and amazing stories, I still to this day get really surprised when I see some of the things that I see. And so my recent patient, and this is very, very recent, she was somebody who had a very high stress life. She had gone through a lot and she had a very demanding job.
And sometimes that job would be overnights. And she so desperately wanted to have a baby. She really, really has been trying a year and a half, and she had gotten pregnant actually a year ago, and shortly after she miscarried. And so now she came after a year and. Was getting her period normally, and her [00:05:00] hormone levels were in a good range.
FSH was at a good place. Her TSH, her thyroid was normal and then normal for fertility, and her A MH was normal. However, she had a couple of months before stopped getting her period and just never got it back. So she was freaking out because. She wasn't understanding why all of a sudden she stopped getting her period.
And of course she wasn't pregnant and she went to a doctor and we had already started working together. And then afterwards she went to a doctor, a new REI, uh, really nice guy. She's really still very happy with him. But what happened was when she got her labs, her labs showed that her FSH was through the roof and her aim H really plummeted.
So she was really worried and the doctor said, listen, you know, the only thing that I'm thinking is that you're probably entering menopause. You're not getting your period. Your numbers are not really reflecting a fertile time. And then [00:06:00] also. You'll probably do better with an egg donor. And he actually diagnosed her with premature ovarian failure.
And what's crazy is he did another lab and then found that her HCG, which is the pregnancy hormone, was at a very low amount. And he said, well, you know, this could be just an abnormal thing. Then she took a test at home and then saw that it was slightly positive, and I'm thinking, okay, I don't know that I've seen many.
False positives. This doesn't really make sense that you wouldn't be pregnant based on this. Then she went again and her HCG like really went up and then she went again, and it just keeps going really high. And at one point her progesterone was low, which would make sense if she's under a lot of high stress.
So he put her on progesterone and it just kept going high to the point where the doctor said. You know what? I don't think that I'm gonna be so quick to say premature [00:07:00] ovarian failure. Maybe I'll say insufficiency, and it really gave him pause because at one point I think he was just based on the numbers, really dismissing that she could possibly get pregnant with her own eggs.
But sure enough, she is pregnant right now and she never got her period. She must have just ovulated and during that time just went straight to pregnancy. Then I've had another patient who got off of birth control and she had not had her period for about seven months. She was diagnosed with PCOS, and that could be kind of like, um, a fake out that happens sometimes after going on the birth control pill.
And then again, started coming to me and then she ended up ovulating or noticing that she was ovulating where she, whereas before she was taking Clomid and nothing was helping. And she ended up going straight into pregnancy. And so many times I see people in this with such a range, um, such a [00:08:00] different background, such a variety of different stories.
And really the one thing that. They have in common is, you know, not really seeing the results and having to find some kind of belief. But the truth is, even though sometimes it feels like you're not believing, the fact that you're listening to this, the fact that, uh, my patients are coming to me or people are actually choosing to come to me, knowing that I'm helping with fertility, means that somewhere in their minds they see a potential, a potential of themselves getting pregnant.
Because otherwise they wouldn't do it. And that's something to always consider because sometimes you might say to yourself, I'm losing hope. But the fact that you're actually doing things and looking into things to try to conceive means that there's gotta be some kind of hope in there. And there's gotta be some kind of faith in your ability to conceive.
Otherwise, you wouldn't really be putting any effort whatsoever. So there's gotta [00:09:00] be something inside of you that's telling you that there is potential for your conception and for you to have a baby. And that's really what I wanted to talk about today is really having faith in the unseen. And so many times we're conditioned, we're really living in a world that we are so reactive to just the material world, and we put so much emphasis on the numbers, on the data and the information that sometimes this can cause us to ignore a huge aspect.
Of reality, which is behind the scenes. It's the intelligence that runs the show. And I always talk about this intelligence that runs the show is evident in ourselves. It's evident because when we have stem cells, which means that. Really, it's like the form of cells that all cells begin at. And I remember having Bruce Lipton and he was talking about how all cells [00:10:00] begin as stem cells, but what changes them?
What makes them differentiate? If they all have the same blueprint of DNA, what's the difference? Why do some stem cells become liver cells and why do some become fat cells and others become heart cells or, or skin cells? What's the difference, the environment? So Bruce Lipton is a cellular biologist, and he did studies where he would take different stem cells and put them in Petri dishes and would create or alter the environments in which they grew, and those environments impacted how the cell would express itself.
So all cells start with a blueprint of the DNA. So if the DNA was everything and nothing else mattered, then. Everything would end up being the same because they all have the same DNA, but there has to be something that's instructing those cells to develop the way they are. So what he's [00:11:00] saying is that it's the environment and what impacts this environment is our thoughts.
So the Biology of Belief is his book, and he talked about how our thoughts can impact and inform our bodies to create hormones. So if it's stressful thoughts, it can cause cortisol to rise and stress hormones, and that can impact the cells. That could be your Petri dish internally because that's your blood.
And there are studies that were done on watching comedies besides the fact that it helps with transfer rates, which is a huge deal, but it also helps with regulating your immune system. So we know that emotions and emotional states really impact our body. So these are things that are all behind the scenes.
They work behind the scenes. And Dr. Lisa Miller, she does research on how our belief in something bigger than ourselves or having some kind of spirituality in our life or spiritual practice can [00:12:00] impact our brains and protect our brains from depression. So we're seeing that. Belief in something that is much bigger can impact our emotions and those emotions impact our physiology.
And so just because we don't place a lot of importance in this in our everyday life doesn't mean it's not worthy of your attention. And it does not mean that this isn't something that you should be considering, especially if you're trying to conceive. And as a woman, we're channels. We are channels and our bodies are channels to bring in new life.
So having that channel feeling aligned, feeling receptive, is incredibly important. And I see this aspect of our bodies and our minds and our spirits oftentimes so ignored and so much more faith goes into the numbers and the analytics, which change. [00:13:00] They changed like the wind. I've seen them change. They changed really based on lifestyle and it's a snapshot in time.
And from that snapshot, we can put so much importance into it. And so this is why I felt the need to talk about this, the need to talk about having faith in your body. Having faith in something that is much bigger than us. And so going back to how our cells operate and those intelligence that. Tells and instructs what our cells become.
You know how they end up expressing themselves. That is this divine intelligence that runs in your system. And there was a saying that many scientists go into science because they don't believe in a greater intelligence because they think that everything's matter. And once they go back, it actually kind of brings them back to.
The creator, once they start to study [00:14:00] and see even with the body, that there's so much more than meets the eye, that actually proves itself. So if you really, really wanna look and you see how much intelligence runs the show and how there's a mathematical equation to every living form, and you can see things like the Fibonacci sequence showing itself throughout nature, you can realize that things are not as random as we may think.
And so this is kind of food for thought to realize that having faith. Not just in our process, not just in our lives, but really in something greater than us. Having faith in a creator will also infuse the faith we have in our own bodies. So personally, I do think it's very important to have some kind of spiritual practice, and that does not mean to be religious.[00:15:00]
It just means to really. Be in awe of our own creation and that we have been born from something so much greater than ourselves. And I hesitated on talking about this because sometimes it can bring up so many different emotions 'cause everybody has a different perspective. But. If I share this as really something that I see oftentimes just with my own work, and also it happens to be that when people connect with their spirit, babies and I had Tori Quizzing on, she was the first guest in our new membership, the Wholesome Fertility Collective, which is a very, very affordable way to get.
Coaching online every month, and she was our first guest and she is also a spirit baby medium. She talked a lot about spirit babies, and she said that once you make that connection, it really opens the door. And I see this, I actually see it, and [00:16:00] I see miraculous signs coming from my patients, and the signs come so clearly that it becomes almost more clear.
Then if they're ever gonna get pregnant. And even for me as a practitioner, even though I've seen so many success stories, I still question like, when is it gonna happen? You know, I get really excited and I get also emotionally attached to my patients' stories that sometimes I'm like, when is it gonna happen?
Is it gonna happen? And I, and I do pray for my patients, so. One of my patients had these incredible signs for months and months and months, and she finally conceived and it was random. It kind of fell outta nowhere because she was about to do her second retrieval. Her first retrieval failed, and it seems random, but it's not random.
Everything happens for a reason. I've even seen incredible stories and I've had 'em on my podcast where people. Would have their babies and their babies would, and this happened two times, would be born on a certain date [00:17:00] and that date corresponded to the signs that they had before they even conceived, which is mind blowing.
So those are the kind of things that happen and it makes you think and pause like, is there something else running the show? Is there something else behind the scenes? And is my belief. That's something else. Will that open the door for more miracles? Will that open the door to help me be a better channel?
I personally believe the answer to that is yes. So my reason for doing this episode is really. To share some of my stories, share some of my findings, and just to mention, even though I love the spirituality aspect, I also love bridging it with science because now we are starting to see things and measure things that we originally did not have access to.
And I think that that also. Almost sheds light on the fact that there [00:18:00] really is something behind the scenes and we can start to see this through research and evidence, and we can see that visualization makes a difference, that belief makes a difference, and that emotional states make a difference.
Getting into states of joy and watching comedies, it releases a lot of the tension that we can build up in our bodies. And Chinese medicine talks about that tension. It talks about how constricting ourselves really constricts that life force vitality, this incredible intelligence in our body, which is referred to as she or prana, depending on the background.
One is from India and one is from China, but they talk about the same thing and that life force vitality, it wants to flow, it wants to move, but we get stuck in a certain state of mind. But believe it or not, even though it doesn't feel this way, our state of mind is malleable. It is something that we actually have [00:19:00] control over.
It doesn't feel that way. It feels like it controls us, but there are tools and ways that you can get back your control, and I do often teach this to both my clients online and my patients in person. And if you're ever curious or wanna find out more, you can always book a call with my team on my website.
And many of my other podcast episodes are really about getting that power and that empowerment back into your life. So I really do hope that this episode triggered some sense of hope in you because I will tell you just based on my experience, there is so much more than meets the eye. And even with Chinese medicine, we do learn that the spirit is connected to the body and that the spirit.
Of a person matters. So thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you benefited from this episode, and I [00:20:00] will see you next time.
[00:21:00]

Michelle Oravitz 12/15/25 Michelle Oravitz 12/15/25

Ep 367 5 Ways Science Proves You’re More Powerful Than You Think

In this episode, Michelle explores five powerful science backed truths that reveal how your thoughts, emotions, nervous system, and energy directly influence fertility. Discover how much control you truly have over your reproductive health and why your body is far more capable and intelligent than you may realize.

What if the most powerful tool for boosting fertility has been inside you all along? In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle reveals five science backed truths that prove your thoughts, emotions, nervous system, and energy hold far more influence over your fertility than you may realize.

Drawing from research in psychoneuroimmunology, HeartMath studies, quantum biology, and epigenetics, Michelle explains how your mind and body work together to shape hormonal balance, ovulation, and overall reproductive health. You will learn why your inner dialogue affects your cells, how stress disrupts the HPO axis, why a regulated nervous system improves conception rates, and how intention can shift your biology at the energetic level.

If you have been feeling discouraged or disconnected from your body, this episode will help you reconnect to your innate wisdom and remind you that your fertility is not just physical. It is influenced by your emotional wellbeing, your beliefs, and the energy you bring to your healing journey.

Tune in and discover how powerful you truly are.

Key Takeaways:

Your thoughts create real, measurable physical change in the body
Emotions communicate with every cell and shape your hormonal landscape
The nervous system is the master conductor of reproductive health
Your energy and intention influence biological responses
You are capable of rewriting your genetic and emotional patterns

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
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Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

# 5 Ways Science Proves You’re More Powerful Than You Think (1)
[00:00:00] Episode number 367 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I wanna talk about something that we all need to be reminded of, especially if you've been trying to conceive for a while and you've had moments of doubt or frustration. You are far more powerful than you think. When we're on a fertility journey, it can feel like everything depends on numbers.
Hormone levels, follicles, test results. And while those things matter, they're only part of the story because the truth is your body isn't a machine that needs fixing. It's a field of consciousness, it's energy, intelligence, and life force in motion. And today I wanna share five things that prove you are super powerful and not in some abstract way, but in ways that are scientifically and energetically real.
[00:01:00] Wondered whether your thoughts, emotions, or beliefs actually matter in this process? The answer is a resounding yes. Number one, your thoughts create physical change. So let's start with one of the most mind blowing truths. Your thoughts literally shape your biology. The field of psycho neuroimmunology, which studies the link between your mind, your nervous system, and your immune system has proven this over and over.
Dr. Canis Pert, who was one of the pioneers in this research. Discovered that neuropeptides, which are chemical messengers of emotion travel throughout the entire body. Every thought, every [00:02:00] belief, and every internal dialogue you have sends messages to yourselves. One famous study led by Dr. Ellen Langer at Harvard showed this in a profound way, she placed a group of elderly men in an environment designated to feel like it was 20 years earlier.
So the music, the magazines, decor, and even the conversations were all from their younger years and after just one week, these men showed measurable changes, which are improved vision, posture, hearing, and even muscle strength. Their body's responded to what their minds believed to be true. Now, imagine applying that to fertility if perception can influence aging.
Imagine what believing in your body's ability to conceive can do when you shift from thoughts like, my body is failing me to my body is wise, and it's learning what it needs. You change the entire chemical environment in [00:03:00] which your cells operate. From a traditional Chinese medicine perspective, that's the she or spirit at work.
When the she is calm and clear, this impacts a state of your heart. And has a trickle effect to your entire body. Hormones can balance, Q can flow, and the womb becomes more receptive with this heart opening. So yes, your thoughts matter, and every loving, trusting thought is a signal of safety that your body responds to.
So number two, your emotions communicate with every cell. Have you ever felt butterflies in your stomach when you're excited or a heaviness in your chest? When you're sad or anxious, that's your body responding to your thoughts. So research from the HeartMath Institute has shown that your heart has its own nervous system and electromagnetic field, and one that extends several feet beyond your body.
And that field changes based on your emotional [00:04:00] state. So when you experience gratitude or compassion, your heart rhythm becomes more coherent. And that means your brain and your heart synchronize and your body shifts into a healing state, and this directly impacts fertility because when your nervous system is calm and your heart rhythm is coherent, blood flow to the uterus improves.
Cortisol levels drop and your reproductive hormones balance. In Chinese medicine, emotions are inseparable from physical health. The liver governs the free flow of qi, which is your life force vitality, and when we're frustrated or tense. That flow can stagnate, which can delay ovulation and the spleen associated with worry influences, digestion and nutrient absorption.
Both key for egg quality and the kidneys. The root of fertility are weakened by chronic fear. So when you nurture your emotional wellbeing, you're not [00:05:00] just soothing your mind, you're optimizing your reproductive system. It's not just about avoiding emotions, it's actually about allowing them to move because emotions are energy and motion.
When that energy flows, life force vitality in turn can flow. And number three, your nervous system holds the key to hormonal harmony. Here's one of the biggest truth I wish every woman knew. Your nervous system is the master conductor of your hormones. Your reproductive system is governed by something called the HPO Access.
That's the hypothalamic. Pituitary ovarian access, and it's like a conversation between your brain and your ovaries, but that conversation is deeply influenced by stress levels. And so when you're in fight or flight, your body prioritizes survival over reproduction, cortisol rises and it suppresses the hormone GNRH, which is what [00:06:00] triggers ovulation.
This isn't your body betraying you, it's actually protecting you. It's saying this isn't a safe time to create, but the moment you shift into parasympathetic mode, which is rest and digest state, your body receives a message. It's safe now in a 2011 study published in Fertility and sterility. It showed that women who participated in mind body programs for stress reduction had a 52% conception rate within a year compared to 20% in the control group.
That's more than double acupuncture, meditation, gentle breath work. These are not luxuries when it comes to fertility health. Their nervous system medicine, they tell your brain and ovaries, you can communicate again. That's when magic happens. Ovulation, normalizes, cycles regulate and conception can be more supported.
And number four, your energy field [00:07:00] responds to intention. Yes, you heard that correctly. Quantum physics has revealed something. Ancient. Wisdom has always known. Everything is energy. The famous double split experiment, scientists found that the act of observation simply paying attention changes how subatomic particles behave.
So your focus is a creative force, and that means your body, your womb, your cells, they're responding to your attention when you place your hands over your womb. Breathe into it with love and gratitude, you're creating a physiological change. Studies by Dr. Herbert Benson at Harvard have shown that meditation and visualization can activate what he called the relaxation response, which turns on genes associated with fertility and healing while turning off.
Genes linked to stress and inflammation. Your intention changes your biology. And [00:08:00] traditional Chinese medicine has said this for thousands of years, where the mind goes, Q follows, when your thoughts rest in the womb with compassion and trust, energy follows circulation increases and your body's creative potential can expand.
Number five, you can rewrite your biological story. And this last one might be the most empowering of all. Science used to tell us that our genes determine everything, but we now know that is not the full story. The study of epigenetics, which literally means. Above the genes shows that your environment, beliefs, and emotions can turn genes on or off.
Dr. Bruce Lipton's research demonstrated when you change your emotional and energetic environment, you can change how your DNA expresses itself. You're not a prisoner of your genetics. You are the author [00:09:00] of how they play out a study published in Nature. Neuroscience even showed that stress in one generation can influence fertility in the next, but that this effect can be reversed through nurturing, safety, and emotional healing.
That means your healing work now, your mindfulness, your self love. Your trusts can actually shift patterns that may have been carried through generations. You are breaking cycles, not just for yourself, but for your lineage. So when you choose to believe that your body is capable of creating life, you're not just hoping you're rewriting your biology.
And let's remember, you are not separate from the intelligence that creates life. You are. Intelligence, here are your five reminders of power. Your thoughts create physical change. Your emotions communicate with every cell. [00:10:00] Your nervous system governs your fertility. Your energy field responds to intention and you can rewrite your biological story.
Your fertility journey is not about forcing your body to work. It's about remembering that it knows how to and when you align your mind, emotions, and energy with that truth. Your body responds. If this episode resonated with you and you wanna explore more of these principles, I invite you to join me inside the wholesome fertility collective.
It's a space where women come together to reconnect with your body's wisdom, and remember that creation is their nature because you, yes, you are not broken. You are powerful beyond measure, and your body's divine intelligence is always. Listening. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you love this episode, please share it with someone who needs to be reminded of their power.
And as always, [00:11:00] I will see you next week right here on the Wholesome Fertility Podcast.
[00:12:00]

Michelle Oravitz 12/8/25 Michelle Oravitz 12/8/25

Ep 366 The Parasite Conversation No One’s Having (But Should Be)

In this eye-opening episode, Michelle Oravitz talks with Kim Rogers, founder of RogersHood Apothecary and creator of the viral ParaFy Parasite Cleanse Kit. Kim shares her personal journey from battling endometriosis, Lyme, and mold toxicity to discovering the hidden role parasites play in overall health and fertility. Learn how cleansing the body’s “soil” can boost energy, balance hormones, and enhance fertility naturally.

In this eye-opening episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle sits down with Kim Rogers, also known as “The Worm Queen,” to have the parasite conversation no one’s having but absolutely should.

A seasoned Western medicine professional turned holistic wellness educator, Kim shares her journey from battling endometriosis, mold toxicity, and Lyme disease to founding RogersHood Apothecary and developing the viral ParaFy Parasite Cleanse Kit.

Together, Michelle and Kim dive into the hidden world of parasites, mold, and heavy metals, and how these often-overlooked culprits could be affecting your digestion, mood, skin, and even fertility. You’ll learn how exposure happens, why binders and biofilm-busting herbs are key, and when cleansing is safe and beneficial, especially if you’re trying to conceive or preparing for IVF.

If you’ve ever felt unwell despite “normal” labs, this episode will change how you see your body’s internal ecosystem and empower you to take charge of your health from the inside out.

Key Takeaways:

Discover how hidden parasites and toxins could be silently impacting your fertility, mood, and digestion.
Learn why “cleaning your soil” may be the missing piece in your preconception or IVF journey.
Find out the surprising everyday sources of parasites, from pets to produce, and how to protect yourself.
Understand why binders and biofilm-busting herbs are essential for safe and effective detoxing.
Hear how Kim’s viral ParaFy cleanse is helping thousands reclaim their energy, clarity, and overall wellness.

Guest Bio:

Kim Rogers is a seasoned wellness professional with over 20 years of experience in Western medicine. After facing her own health challenges including endometriosis, parasites, Lyme disease, and mold poisoning, Kim transitioned from pharmaceuticals to natural healing. She co-founded RogersHood Apothecary in 2021, where she now serves as CEO and creator of the globally recognized ParaFy Parasite Cleanse Kit.

Her viral success on TikTok and Instagram brought global attention to parasite cleansing and holistic detoxification. Through transparency and education, Kim continues to inspire millions to take control of their health and become their own advocates. She also hosts the podcast What’s Eating U?!, where she explores the intersections of wellness, environmental toxins, and personal empowerment.

Use coupon code FERTILITY for 10% off at rogershood.com/ref/3077

Links and resources:

Visit Kim’s website: rogershood.com/ref/3077

Follow Kim on Instagram: @mrsrogers.hood
Connect with Kim on Facebook: Kim Rogers
Watch Kim’s podcast What’s Eating U?! on YouTube:youtube.com/@Whatseatingupodcast

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

# TWF: EP 366 Kim Rogers
Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 366 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I'm joined by Kim Rogers, AKA, the worm queen, a veteran of western medicine turned natural wellness educator and CEO of Rogers Hood apothecary. After navigating endometriosis, parasites, lime, and mold.
Kim created the viral parasite cleanse, and now teaches millions how cleaning the soil, which is addressing parasites, mold, candida, and heavy metals can shift stubborn symptoms from digestion and skin to mood and fertility. We'll break down what parasites actually are, how exposure happens, and why binders and biofilm busting herbs matter and when it's appropriate to cleanse or not cleanse, especially if you're.
Trying to conceive or doing IVF if your labs look normal, but you still [00:01:00] feel like something else is going on, this episode is for you.
Welcome to the podcast, Kim.
Kim: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to chat about all of this.
Michelle: Yes. I'm so excited to have you. This is really the first of its kind of this conversation, and I'm super excited. When I saw your information, I was like, wow, this is actually. I think information that a lot of people need to know about, including me, I'm excited to learn. So before we get started, I always like to start with an origin story, like how you got into this work and really how you discovered it in your own journey.
Kim: Well, I don't know if [00:02:00] I would say I got into it. I think I was told by the universe that this is what I was meant to do, and so
Michelle: I.
love those kinds because they're always good.
Kim: The navigating of it, you're like, really? Like even this morning because so for some of you guys that don't know who I am, my name is Kim Rogers and I'm known online as the Worm Queen, and I hold that title very dear to my heart. I've made merch around it, like it's really a fun title. Such a yucky subject that people don't really want to talk about.
But I'm happy to talk about it. I'm one of those people that at the dinner party that if you don't wanna hear it, you should leave. 'cause I'm gonna say it no matter what.
Michelle: I love it.
Kim: I've always been that way and now it's just worse. 'cause I talk about worms all day, right? Like I talk about poop and worms and it.
Poop is really not my favorite topic to talk about. However, it does go hand in hand with the worms. So you know, it's like you kind of have to take the good with the bad. Alright, so [00:03:00] I went viral on TikTok in 2021 and I went a viral over a parasite cleanse, and that's why I was known. That's why I'm known as the Worm Queen.
My community over there crowned me the Worm Queen, so that. I could go forward with something fun for a gross and an under talked about topic and Western medicine doesn't talk about it. And shockingly enough over the last few years, the wellness community doesn't talk about this either, and they don't understand that in order for our actual wellness.
To happen. You need to clean your soil. And cleaning your soil means you really need to do parasite cleansing and mold cleansing and get in there and really clean the soil out. And I'm gonna go over why on this podcast. It's so important to clean your soil. And if you don't do that, how sometimes it can be a waste of time and it can also really not.
Do a service for you, you're thinking you're doing [00:04:00] all the right things. And in reality there's just like a few things you really have to do in order to make your health go to the next level. And that's what I found out when I was on my journey. So I come from Western medicine, I am a Western medicine refugee, is what we kind of been jokingly talking about it with.
I've been in it since 2004. I hold two healthcare degrees. I ran 25 medical colleges. I was a professor. I've authored medical books. I've served on advisory boards. I've written national certifications. I worked in the emergency room. I did insurance. So I really have been very well-rounded in Western medicine versus just.
Going viral on TikTok. I just happened to go viral on TikTok on something that I really could speak about 'cause it has to do with the human body. So I've been doing that since 2019 and my own health declined rapidly in 2019, and I [00:05:00] set us up so that I could go out to our recreational property to either say goodbye or to figure out what was wrong with my body.
And that's what we did. So in 2019, we headed out to a piece of recreational property to build a log home. And when I got out there, I was doing a pretty good job. I felt a little bit better. I got away from the stress. I started navigating with mushrooms and really getting off of my big pharma me. But I still wasn't at an optimal level in 2021 than I wanted to be.
I wasn't pooping regularly, which is a huge concern for myself. And actually, you should be concerned too, if you're not pooping on a regular basis, it means something's going on internally. My skin was a wreck and I have really great skin, and so I really wanted to know what else was going on, and I was on TikTok.
I had a small account that I was teaching people how to build a log home and grow mushrooms. So I had around 10,000 [00:06:00] followers. I did a cleanse because I came across the gal's video that said I almost unli myself over worms, and it stopped me in my tracks and I thought, you know. It's possible, like it's possible that a lot of my symptoms are because I could have parasites.
I flare during the full moon, and I have a lot of the issues that she was talking about, specifically mental health issues. So I ordered what she was talking about, and within three days I saw roundworm, flukes, and pinworms in the toilet, and I didn't even have to dig. They literally were just sitting on the top of the water just pointing at me basically like, girl, this has been your problem for decades.
And I have done this every day since then. I have talked about parasites 1,488 days in a row. I've never taken a day off.
Michelle: That's
Kim: important. Mm-hmm.
Michelle: Oh, big time. Important. I have so many questions [00:07:00] already. Wow. That's crazy. Okay, so. How do people get parasites besides like, is it raw foods? Like what is it?
Kim: It's all of that. It's raw foods. Your pets, I would say a hundred percent of pet owners that have never de-worm themselves, have worms from their dogs. I had the same worms as my dogs, but I also had a parasite from the water. So water is a way to get a parasite and not just a parasite. So let me give you the definitions of what parasites are.
The definition of the umbrella word parasite is anything that feeds off a host and in Latin terms, an unwanted dinner guest. So you have an umbrella.
Michelle: You make, you make me laugh.
Kim: See, you gotta like, it's serious, but you gotta
Michelle: No, I know, I know.
Kim: What are we gonna say here? And be
Michelle: I know. It's serious, but It's just, yeah.
Kim: It's serious. Like you just have to go.
It's so serious, like pointing and like seriousness. [00:08:00] So if you look at then what happens underneath the parasites, there's lots of different words. There's protozoa, which is a parasite that's microscopic, that's usually found in the water. So I had Cryptosporidium parm, which is parvo, which on a live puppies, and my husband had D fried G leaves.
Which is a sister to Giardia. We all know what Giardia is. We've heard it. When you have a water break at your house, you have to boil your water. They're just afraid you're gonna catch a parasite, right? And that they don't have good testing. So they can't give you a guarantee that in fact you didn't catch it from the water break.
So. That's where we caught some of our parasites. But then there's nematodes and nematodes are physical worms, roundworm, tape worm, whipworm pin worms, all of the physical worms. And our country doesn't test our water for nematodes. And those are the physical worms. We had nematodes in our water and hoodsport, and it's a [00:09:00] well that services.
Thousands of people in that community. And I've also tested my water here in Seattle and tested positive for nematodes too. And as I've done dug down deeper, I find out our country doesn't actually test for physical worms in our water and they only test for protozoas. So now that everybody understands the difference, there is a significant difference in the two types of parasites.
That you would do a parasite cleanse for? Right. We're not trying. My paras purify is not for lice and scabies. It is helpful, but that's also under the word parasites, but they're in their own definition. So now that everybody kind of has an understanding of what the differences, it really does help when you're.
Thinking about where you can catch a parasite. So a lot of dogs will go out and they'll lick everything, and then they have microscopic parasites that can go onto you and absorb into your skin when you let them lick on you, [00:10:00] or if they're laying with you. It really is a thing. I had the same parasites as my dogs.
My dogs head worms. I deworm them, but I never deworm myself.
Michelle: Wow. That's crazy. That's true. It's, true. We always focus on that.
Kim: it's really a crazy thought process that we are so concerned about our pets, you know? Another place that you can catch a parasite is salmon and sushi,
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Kim: raw meat, raw produce.
Michelle: So salmon, raw salmon, or also cooked. If it's not cooked enough, maybe if it's undercooked.
Kim: So the salmon still has it inside. It's just if it you cook it, it becomes dead.
Michelle: Okay.
Kim: salmon can hold up to 10,000 parasite eggs in one square inch of its body.
Michelle: My God. Wow.
Kim: The closer to the belly of the cut of the salmon, the more parasites. I live in Seattle and I have gone down and interviewed the people at Pike Market, which is [00:11:00] like
the famous fish market. And when I talked with them about this, they looked at me like I was crazy because I said so. Tell me which fish have parasites And they go, well, all of 'em. They all have worms. It's natural. And I'm like, oh god. Good thing I got that on tape.
Because everyone seems to think that this is not a real thing, that you could catch a parasite from fish or seafood.
Michelle: I think people are in a denial. They just don't want to know. I think that that's what
Kim: I'm
Michelle: it's like I don't wanna know about it. If I don't see it, it doesn't exist. That's funny.
Kim: it. So, you know, those are like really simple ways that you can catch something like this. And then the problem is that after you catch it, it doesn't always become active, right? So we can lay [00:12:00] dormant in your body and then all of a sudden something happens in your life that's very stressful and they feed off of low frequencies and bam, all of a sudden.
Now you are sick and you have no idea why, and it's because you're continuously eating a parasite. Or say you go to Mexico. I mean, everyone goes, don't be drinking the water in Mexico. I don't drink the water in the United States.
Michelle: Yeah,
Kim: I don't like.
Michelle: neither. Another top one, or no?
Kim: Yeah, I don't eat raw produce in the United States because it's washed with our water. I don't use ice in the United States. Like, I'm pretty strict with those things since I've done a lot of cleansing and I just know
Michelle: know too much.
Kim: I do. It's so unfortunate. 'cause salmon's my favorite, like
Michelle: Yeah. So I'm guessing you're not eating any raw fish anytime soon.
Kim: No, no, no, no, I'm not. But you know, the funny thing about the word salmon is that it's actually my niece's last name. [00:13:00]
Michelle: Is It really?
Kim: It is, and I'm allergic to salmon. I've had my hair tested and it came back that I'm allergic to salmon. I'm like, well, that's because I have a negative frequency when I say salmon now, so it's auto.
I'm allergic to salmon. My niece's last name is salmon, and on a daily basis I talk shit about salmon. The matrix is cruel.
Michelle: You are so funny. I look, this is really funny. It's,
it really is. Now. Now It's true. The f there is a frequency. it's a real thing.
Kim: thing. Frequencies
Michelle: see the parasite eggs, we, we, we can't see the actual parasites, but the eggs, we can't see the frequency, but you know, we feel it for sure.
Kim: Well, we're frequency, right? So basically what I did when I realized that after I went viral on TikTok and I went viral over my own parasite cleanse, not para, I actually started my business a few months after, which. Just for [00:14:00] viewers to hear this and the community to hear this. I was still very ill when I went viral.
It wasn't like all of a sudden I went viral and bam, I'm in, like I'm in this, I'm in the health I'm in today. You know, like it really was. I had parasites and then I found out we were living in mold in the middle of all of this. And then in 2023, I, I found out I had chronic end stages of Lyme, and that's what was like my uphill battle.
But I started a company over all of this because of the fact that I was spending all day long talking about other people's product, how you should take a parasite cleanse with a candida cleanse and a heavy metal cleanse because they all hang out together. And so as I was. Doing all of the things while I was going viral, and when I say I was going viral, it wasn't a little viral, it was a million people watched my one video in two hours and it shut my account down.
It shut my phone down. It overheated my phone. And then in, and [00:15:00] since all of this time, that video has had 10 million views. My account used to get 40 to 50 million views a month. So it was like a million to 2 million views a day until TikTok smartened up. And anytime you say parasite, it's totally censored now.
So, but we have a million followers across all of. Our platforms, and we also now have a 10,000 square foot manufacturing facility and 40 team members that help make the purify cleanse among other cleanses that we now make because we really are an environmental toxin cleanse company that shows you how to get rid of parasites, mold, and, and assists with Lyme.
So everything that's affected me, I've just, I made a business over it.
Michelle: But you're helping people, which is amazing. This is what I always say, that's like completely aligned purpose when you know, you take something that you have gone through and then you're not only helping yourself, but you're helping others. But I think that that's when it really has an [00:16:00] impact.
And of course, it's a passion because you know what you went through.
Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I was not a fan of parasites in my real life before this though. I left the urgent care 'cause I had to treat parasites and I'm like, I'm out. I'm out.
Michelle: It's very poetic how, how how things happen. Yeah. And so tell us some of the things, some of the symptoms that people can have from Para. It's 'cause people can have it and not realize that they have anything. What are some of the things that are red flags or, and you can also mention, you know, you went through endometriosis as well, which a lot of listeners have gone through.
Kim: So some of my symptoms of endo happened to be parasites, molden, Lyme, just, I'm just gonna put it out there. I had a hysterectomy when I was 29 years old. I had five surgeries prior to the hysterectomy, and then I had five surgeries after the hysterectomy. Total amount of surgeries I've had due to [00:17:00] endometriosis.
Has been 13 and in 2019, I was told after my last surgery that I could no longer have surgeries and that this is the way I was gonna have to live in pain, bloated, uncomfortable, not pooping, and just trying to regulate my daily pain. And that to me is not acceptable. And so that's really what made me dig in even more.
And now looking back in all the research that I've done, I can't believe that these things were not brought to my attention. It's been 20 years. I'm 47 years old, so it's not like this was something that was really common back then to talk about, and that's why I'm so passionate about it. It's really upsetting that our western medicine countries don't understand that someone needs to clean their soil first before they do a life altering surgery or a life altering event. I was on chemo twice. It damaged my bones, it damaged my body. It didn't stop the endo from growing. And every time I would watch a surgery [00:18:00] or I would look at pictures, I always thought, this looks really suspicious.
And when I went to my doctors and said that, they just gaslit me and I would research, but like at what point, even with the amount of knowledge I have, and when I say that I'm smart, it's not. Because I'm trying to have a big ego. I literally was valedictorian over two medical degrees. I'm really smart. So when I went to my doctors and I said, Hey, like this just doesn't look right.
Like, could you explain this to me? And they're not able to explain it for a few reasons. Once they just don't know. And it's not their fault
they're reading a
Michelle: just not in the system.
Kim: That's right. That's right. Their indoctrination did not allow them to speak about it. Right. And then their malpractice fear does not allow them to go outside of the box.
So it's my job.
Michelle: Yeah.
Kim: Out. It's the truth. It's the truth. And I know because I was a licensed medical specialist, I worked in the field and I went out of the box [00:19:00] all the time. I actually let my license go so that I could speak about this even more. So I went viral in July and I let my license go in September because I knew that if I came out the way, I knew I was gonna come out with this, that it wasn't gonna be something that I could like defend with a license anymore.
You know? And so I think that. Looking at all of this, and me actually being a part of Western medicine, writing, education, academia, all of those things played a huge part in having a better understanding that people that are not in the medical world, they really don't have any idea. And so it's really important for you as a human to be able to advocate for yourself, to be able to have sovereignty over your own body.
And I think 2020 really taught that. To people, and I feel like that's another reason why I know this is my destiny because everyone was in lockdown in 21. Everyone was looking for [00:20:00] what is a way that they can take sovereignty over their health and figure it out with doing something natural. And that's.
That's what I talk about every day. I don't just talk about parasites. I literally now show everybody everything I've done to heal my body. I have podcasts over it. I literally want the, the world to be in a, in a wellness space versus we're constantly reacting to our health. Now that we know that our culture does not talk about parasites, mold, it is important for us.
As a society to talk about it. And so even if you're looking at it in a different lens, it still is gonna happen to you whether you think that you can catch a parasite or not. Everybody has parasites, in my opinion.
Michelle: It's almost like environmental toxins. It's just like it's there
Kim: It's an
Michelle: you know, we're poor as beings, so at one point or another we can't [00:21:00] get away from it. So we have to be proactive.
Kim: That's right. That's right. You have to be, and now that we know this, I mean, this is what I do every day, honestly. I do one to three hours of podcasting a day. And then in the mornings I run a business to, to make sure everybody is aware of what this movement is. And then I do my podcasting. And then in the afternoon I do content around all of this because it's so important that if you think that you've got IBS, you're grinding your teeth, your skin is a wreck, your labs come back normal.
You don't feel like yourself. You can't reconnect with your intuition. You're constantly depressed, you're constantly anxious. It's because you potentially have a parasite. I mean, you look at just, I do videos about 21 signs, like you've got reoccurring yeast infections. You have bv, well, you have candida, and candida is a parasite.
[00:22:00] Candida is a, is a yeast in our body that overgrows and controls your mind telling you to eat sugar because that's what it feeds off of. So that takes it to a next step. Can parasites control your mind? Absolutely. Parasites control your mind and mold brainwashes you. And if you think about that in a live frequency, they're alive in our body and they hijack our nervous system.
They get into our lymphatic system, and then they cause our brain gut to not connect. And your gut is your brain
they need.
Michelle: system. They, yep. So it's a it. Yeah, That's a microbiome can really impact your brain. So it would make sense. Totally. That parasites would as well.
Kim: And then you bring in the other aspect of the heavy metals and the heavy metals weight them down. Well, we're, we're exposed every day to heavy metals. I'm looking at my water. It's in glass right? [00:23:00] But it's got this on top of it. Okay. Okay, well this is just life. Do you think that maybe there might be something that could seep in at some point when you've got like, so I can't avoid it, but what I can do is I can cleanse it, I can assist my body, assist my organs by using herbs to go in and direct what needs to be pushed where.
And that's all I did with the purify kit. When I realized after going viral one that the company that I was talking about at the time would not disclose transparency about what's in their product. I realized that this is actually a thing with most companies. I said, what are the natural ingredients that you have on the back of your.
Is this lab? Are you soaking your herbs? And they're like, well, we can't disclose that. That's patent. And I'm like, what do you mean? You can't tell me why there's color? You know, there's [00:24:00] coloring inside of your tincture. I didn't like that. I didn't like that at all. So I created my own, and I'm very transparent.
Michelle: I love that, so, so talk to us about what you did actually create in these cleanses. Like what do they do? How long does it work?
Kim: So it's a 30 day cleanse, and I recommend anybody that has infertility issues, that has reproductive problems to actually go in and do a para parasite cleanse. I. Look back now, I have no regrets, but I do look back and think if I was able to have done this, would I have needed a hysterectomy? And the answer really is no.
I've also had a lot of people that have infertility issues, done my kit and actually have babies. I can name three people right now that I sent kids to personally, and they have 1-year-old boys. I don't know what it was, but that year happened to be a lot of boys and so.[00:25:00]
Michelle: And you wouldn't recommend doing this as you're trying to conceive, you would say, do this, pause and then try after?
Kim: Yeah, because Wormwood dictates the fact that like it can push out any sort of what they think could be a toxin. That's what the herb does. And so I don't recommend that if someone is actively trying or is on IVF to actually do a parasite cleanse. But if you're pausing and you know that you're gonna go for it, then you should be cleaning your soil.
You should get in there because once your body relieves. Itself of something that it's already living with, right? Because these are living things in our bodies. They're physical living beings in our bodies. So once it re gets rid of that, it can get itself prepared to have another positive living thing living inside of your body, taking your nutrients.
So. Parasites can take up to 90% of our nutrients, and that's why people that have [00:26:00] hookworm have anemia. That's why people that have a tapeworm are skinny or are totally overweight and cannot lose weight no matter what, because it's stealing the nutrients that your body needs. It's acting like your body, but your physical body, your physical being, is not getting those nutrients.
So now it's suffering. Multiple different places are no longer getting the a hundred percent energy that it needs in order to operate, and it's relying now on another team member inside. Right? So it's really an unfortunate thing when you do have a parasite and that's why we all end up being somewhat chronically ill.
Because of that. So if you look at that in a hole when you're trying to get pregnant and you're having a problem, why not give it a try? Like get in there and clean your soil. Get in there and make sure that what you're doing is gonna stick in. One, you're not wasting money. I mean, you're gonna take all these supplements and do all these things, but if you are physical body is not getting what it's needed.
It's a waste.[00:27:00]
Michelle: A hundred percent. And talk also about like mold toxicity. 'cause that's something that I think a lot of people don't really know, like. It, It's kind of like people have heard about it, but they don't really know what it is and what it does, and those, there's different types of mold. I know this is more specific to like toxic black mold but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Kim: It's actually all mold. It's not just black mold, so multiple different molds that get into your body. So I have 11 active molds. My body, I've researched mold a lot. So I went viral in 21, and then in 2022 I found out that we were living in black mold in our travel trailer while we were building our log home.
And when I found that out, I moved us out immediately. And it wasn't just black mold that tried to unli us, it was green mold, which is called cladosporium. I had like. Cryptosporidium and then I had cladosporium. I'm like really, again, playing on the words universe. [00:28:00] So I ended up finding out that specific molds that accumulate inside of your body end up causing you to feel a certain way.
So green mold was at a high toxic level in my body. Even though green mold normally doesn't unlive people like black mold will. But when it pairs with other molds, it will create an ecosystem storm in your body and your cells absorb mold. So if you cut yourself in half and you looked at yourself, it would look just like the wall, right?
It would be clusters of mold and it would be growing. And that's what happens in our cells. And then it pushes ourselves out of the way because the colonization of the mold has to be in there. And so it pushes those cells out and those cells are needed. Our red blood cells are needed, and it can grow inside of those, our white blood cells.
So the cells need the energy and the mold is taking [00:29:00] that energy, and then you get parasites. Most people that have mold end up having parasites, and most people that have mold poisoning end up testing positive for Lyme.
Michelle: That's crazy. And So you know, if you think about like. Mushrooms and fungus. I mean, it is kind of related. Is there any kind of connection with that, like, or does it help and, you know, certain types of mushrooms help?
Kim: So mushrooms are a positive frequency and mold is a low vibrational frequency and were made of frequencies. So all I did when I created all of this and when I realized mushrooms were great, is that you look at the frequency of that herb and what the frequency of that ailment is, and so you realize that we're made of frequencies and light.
And so when you're bringing in certain medications, synthetic driven, it's just a frequency to target that ailment. That's all this is. Right? [00:30:00] So I think people, oh, we take it and it absorbs and it goes to all places, but you're absorbing a frequency. And so I think it's hard 'cause we've never really been taught this type of medicine before.
We just think of a of a as a physical thing. But if you think about
Michelle: But the physical things, a reflection of that.
Kim: Yes, yes. Like when an opera singer gets her voice to the same frequency of a glass and it can shatter, that's a frequency. And so if you find out, like I realize that mushroom frequencies and wormwood frequencies and organ grapefruit, those are all positive frequencies.
And so when you put them into your body, they're gonna snuff out the negative ailments that are being caused, you know?
Michelle: Yeah. it's kind of similar to you know, a soil based, a spore based probiotics because they create an environment that doesn't allow the bad bacteria to grow, so it kind of [00:31:00] creates a different pH. So It's almost like a police, you know, a police, but a good police, you know, that takes care of your body and kind of make sure that everything's run well and, and like, bad.
Opportunistic. Either mold or bacteria, it just doesn't proliferate. So Yeah. It's a defender. That's good. It's policing what it needs to do. Right. It's, that's so good. It's defending, it's like, yo, man, I'm up in here. I don't have time. Like I am going to protect. I'm gonna break down and I'm gonna protect 'cause that's what you brought me into do. Right. So. If you look at everything that you put on your body and in your body and the things that you are doing, they all have frequency.
Kim: So it's a, it's really the best way to simplify what medicine is.
Michelle: And so the para cleanse, is it, is.
that
Kim: Yeah, it's called paray?
and [00:32:00] it's a parasite cleanse that's 30 days. It's three tinctures and a binder. And it's everything that I learned over the last well in that, in that time when I created it. We've never changed our parasite cleanse 'cause that's how good it is. This is the original. We've never changed the recipe.
When I went viral in July of 2021, I started the company in December. So in that timeframe, I studied all night, I researched everything. I read every comment in my, in my dms and and on my videos. And at that point I was making videos like. Three or four a day, and I was doing it so that I could gain the knowledge from people that were watching it.
And they would go into the comments and they would tell me what they use, what they do, how they do it. And one of the things that was amiss for me was a binder on the first couple of cleanses I did. I come from the emergency room, I come from Western medicine. We don't use charcoal or clay. We use charcoal in the emergency room [00:33:00] though when someone comes in overdosing or with alcohol poisoning, and we use it in a large amount, but in Herb world we use it at a microdose.
So I realized that one of the biggest things that I was missing and why things were coming out of my skin and in my mouth and like I was peeing them out is 'cause I wasn't binding.
Michelle: Okay, so explain that. I have a very, very smart audience And they love to really educate themselves, which typically that's what they have to do because they're not really getting their answers elsewhere. so I'd love for, for that to be broken down. Like what's the difference between having a binder, what is it, and also what the herbs do, and why you need the, you know, the two together.
Kim: So our binder is called Cinnamon and I chose sea lawn, cinnamon and coconut activated charcoal. We all know those words, right? So Sealon cinnamon helps with mold spores. So when you are deworming, you're dropping whatever's [00:34:00] inside of their body. If you have physical worms and when you're breaking down microscopic, it's also could be dropping viruses, bacteria, mold, spores, other parasites.
So you have to come in with herbs that are synergistically, going to help remove those things while they're getting dumped in your body. So. You might not have ever tested positive for Epstein-Barr virus, but you might have had a worm that was holding that virus like I did, and then all of a sudden you do a cleanse and it dumps it because you didn't have an herb in there to push it out and also to bind it.
So a binder is a negatively charged herb that attacks and mag magnetizes a positively charged toxin. So it's a magnet. So when you are cleansing, specifically with purify, you're doing candida, parasites, bad bacteria, and viruses and heavy metals. You are going in and you're removing potentially a physical body that's gonna dump that.
And then once it's in your body, you have to bind it and push [00:35:00] it out, or your body is gonna try and reabsorb it. So you're basically boosting
Michelle: This is why people feel sick, because you're, you're basically taking something that was dormant, kind of sitting underneath, you know, behind, and then you're bringing it out. You're kinda activating it. So while you're activating it, you need to attach and remove it rather than circulate it, which a lot of toxins detox.
Detox is used to do, or certain detoxes without binders in general, or even like cleanses that people did.
Kim: Yeah. That's what I did to myself. That's what my husband did. We just took one tincture. We just took an anti-parasitic tincture and that was it. Well, I got heavy metals coming out. It gave me candida, had 'em coming out my skin, like they were, we did a fulvic soak. They came out my feet like it was, it was really like, oh my God.
How does, why do people do this? Right. Why are people putting themselves through this? Well, I did feel better, [00:36:00] but the amount of detoxing I did because I wasn't doing it right. And one of the biggest things you have to do, even after a massage, I mean, as a simple massage, you should bind because of the fact that here, I'll give you guys a real quick anatomy and physiology lesson, and it's because of the.
You'll have an understanding of the lymphatic system and why you need to bind. So our lymphatic system doesn't have a sphincter. It doesn't have a pump, and it's our sewer system. So the sewer system is under our body. And when you get something, even like a massage or you get on a vibration plate, you've just knocked loose, like you said, something that could be dormant.
You just knocked it loose and it's like, well, where do I go? Oh, this place looks really great to go to. I'm gonna go ahead and attach myself here and cause an another problem. But if you do that and then you bind the binder, comes in like a police officer and says, yeah, no, get, get out. Go. It's gonna bind [00:37:00] itself and move itself out, right?
That's the job of the charcoal and that's the job of the cinnamon. The cinnamon helps with inflammation, and inflammation is mucus. And mucus is where they live. They live in a biofilm. They meaning mold. Parasites, candida. They live in a hardened shell, so you gotta break the shell. And those are all of the things that I had to learn.
And then I incorporated that into the Paray Parasite Cleanse kit. Yeah, so because no one has biofilm busters in their, their cleanses, right? So even if you go to like Paraguard, which a lot of people know what Paraguard is, it's 30 bucks on Amazon. It's what I went viral over, but it doesn't have a biofilm.
Herb in it that breaks the biofilm, and so you are just going in and cleaning out some of the stuff that's literally just floating around. That's not the purpose of a cleanse. The purpose of a cleanse is to get down and dirty and police and get [00:38:00] all these things out, but you gotta break down their house.
You gotta burn it down in order to expose them.
Michelle: Yeah. And also have you heard of like zeolite or bentonite clay? What are your thoughts on those?
Kim: They're great binders. Zeolite can be taken with anything, and it, it's a good binder. Fulvic is a great binder and it can be taken with anything. And in fact, we're working on, well, we have a fulvic soak, so you can actually soak your feet in a fulvic soak that we have. And I had worms swim out of the bottom of my feet when I did a fulvic soak.
I know, I know, man. I went viral over so many gross things. I'm like, listen, I'm already in the thick of it. The world knows that I had weren't.
Michelle: is so funny.
Kim: I'm going for it. You know, so
Michelle: totally.
Kim: we're, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna let everyone else have the opportunity to buy, buy what I'm talking about, because Fulvic is great.
It's really a, a great mineral that fulvic ic [00:39:00] we need in our bodies to help our mitochondria and to really help bind out toxins and heavy metals. So in fact, next year I'm
Michelle: comes,
from Sheila G, right?
Kim: That's one of the places Uhhuh, the fulvic that we use is a peat moss, and it's just dirt. Fulvic is just dirt.
That's it. So there's ways that they will create things like Sheila gt, but fulvic itself is just peat moss that comes from dirt. But the peat moss absorbs the nutrients that our dirt needs. So if you go and you do a fulvic. Foot soak. And then when you're done with that water, if you go dump that on your plants, they're going to grow exponentially and it's gonna be wild how fast they grow.
So growers for all sorts of growing use fulvic to help their plants grow, but it detoxes our bodies.
Michelle: Right. Amazing. And just FYI if you guys do wanna get information, the link is in the episode notes and [00:40:00] we, I do have a, a coupon code as well.
Kim: Nice
Michelle: Very cool. So some, so you have the purify kit, you have the fulvic acid. What else do you guys offer? And, and also the purify kit helps with mold.
Kim: So we actually have a mold kit. So all of the environmental toxin kits that we have, our first one is purify. That's the old G. That's the one we've had for four years,
but. In May, I developed the lymph kit, LYMF. It helps move your lymphatic and it helps with your three Ps. Your three Ps are ping, pooping and perspiring, and I use the lymph kit every day, and so you can actually use the lymph kit two weeks prior to the purify kit and then you continue to take it while on the purify parasite cleanse and it helps keep your pathways open.
Michelle: So it's safe to take daily, it's like
fine.
Kim: It's your wellness bestie. [00:41:00] Now, instead of a cleanse, it's a wellness kit, so you literally can wake up in the mornings and you can take lymph holy skull and sustain, and what those
Michelle: Except for pregnancy, correct? Like, yeah.
Kim: We don't recommend anybody taking anything while pregnant, breastfeeding under the age of three.
And that has to do with the herbs on chemo meds or on blood thinners. Wormwood a blood thinner and organ grapefruit. Continue your blood. And so if you're already on that, then you don't want to do the two things. We also have in my link, in my profile or in your show notes, I have a link. Hello Pharmacist.
So if you're ever wondering about can I take my meds with these herbs, not just our herbs, any herbs, that's the website to go to, and they love us. I mean, I've sent millions of people over there. We, we've had, you know, we've sold over 250,000 kits worldwide in four years. So they love us because we're constantly telling people like, I can't give you medical advice.
I'm just here to talk about [00:42:00] herbs.
Michelle: Yeah.
That's great. That's really, really good information. Amazing. Wow, there's so, so much. I'm trying to think of what else. What else do I have any other questions? So is there something that people should be considering when they're taking the cleanse? Do they need to drink extra water? Is there anything that they need to do while they're taking it or kind of keep in mind?
Kim: So in the show notes, my link tree will be there and in my link tree I have five free eBooks. Everything I do is free. You can email my team anytime. You can utilize these books. With my cleanse or without. So one of the books is Fast Track Guide. It's like 10 to 15 pages and it tells you how to get ready.
I have a cookbook that right now is a no meat based cookbook, but over the last few years I've done a lot of research and you should have. Some meat protein while cleansing, but this will assist you in getting ideas. It's like 123 pages [00:43:00] at Christmas This year, we'll have a meat protein-based cookbook that is approved for parasite cleansing, and I also have a book that is for drainage pathways to open up your drainage pathways.
And then there's a book. That is a parasite identification ebook that if you're looking and you're wondering what's in the toilet, you can either send us pictures and I will help identify it. Or you can look in this 600 page book. 'cause I have around 25,000 pictures on my phone that I get sent every day.
Yeah, it's wild.
Michelle: That's, that's so crazy. Very, very interesting. I mean, really, really fascinating information. And I'm actually excited because you guys were like, generous enough to send me a kit as Well, so I'm excited to start it. So, wow. So how can people find you I know you'd mentioned a couple of different ways, but how can people find you if they're interested in learning more?
Kim: Well, you can Google me, Kim Rogers Worm Queen. You can find me. [00:44:00] I know. This is why I have a crown. Like even right up there, like people send me crowns. It's so funny. It's just such a, it's such a fun name. I have it on all my merch anyway, so you can find me by googling me that way. Or you can go to my social media accounts, Mrs.
Rogers Hood. M-R-S-R-O-G-E-R-S-H-O-O-D. On Instagram, there's a dot after Rogers and Hood. Someone has the whole name put together, I feel for her dms, and then you can find my website, rogers hood.com. My podcast is called What's Eating You with the Letter U. That's on YouTube as well as all streaming platforms.
So I'm pretty much everywhere. If you just type in Worm Queen, I'm sure I'm gonna pop up somewhere.
Michelle: Oh, awesome. Well, Kim, this is such a great and fun and funny episode, but really like amazingly important too, and great information. I think that a lot of people [00:45:00] would not even consider thinking about this. So I really thank you for bringing this up and kind of sharing your amazing information. So thank you so much for coming on today.
Kim: thanks for having me.
Michelle: Awesome stuff.

Michelle Oravitz 12/1/25 Michelle Oravitz 12/1/25

Ep 365 Meditation with a Mission: How Self-Hypnosis Can Reprogram Your Life

What if you could retrain your mind to work for you instead of against you? In this episode, clinical hypnotherapist Rita Black joins Michelle to explore how self hypnosis can reprogram your subconscious mind, break negative patterns, and help you step into a healthier, more empowered version of yourself. From weight management and smoking cessation to shifting limiting beliefs around fertility and wellbeing, Rita reveals how true transformation begins with the mind.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Rita Black (@shiftweightmastery), a clinical hypnotherapist and weight management expert, to explore how self hypnosis can transform your habits, health, and overall mindset. Rita shares her personal journey of quitting smoking and breaking free from emotional eating through hypnosis and how she has helped thousands do the same.

We dive into the science behind the subconscious mind, the difference between hypnosis and meditation, and how identity shapes your habits, beliefs, and even your physical health. Whether you are trying to change a behavior, reprogram limiting beliefs, or shift your mindset around fertility and well being, this episode will show you how to harness your mind’s power to create lasting change.

Key Takeaways:

How hypnosis works to bypass the conscious mind and rewire habits at the subconscious level.
The difference between meditation and self hypnosis and why the latter is “meditation with a mission.”
Why identity is the foundation of transformation and how it shapes behavior and physiology.
How subconscious beliefs can affect fertility, weight, and other health outcomes.
Simple daily self hypnosis and gratitude techniques to prime your brain for positive change.
Why quitting smoking or vaping is less about willpower and more about identity and subconscious programming.

Guest Bio:

Rita Black, C.Ht. (@shiftweightmastery), is a clinical hypnotherapist and renowned expert in smoking cessation and weight loss. She is the author of the best-selling From Fat to Thin Thinking: Unlock Your Mind for Permanent Weight Loss and the host of the Thin Thinking podcast. Through her signature online programs, Shift Weight Mastery Process and Smokefree123, Rita has guided thousands to harness the power of their subconscious mind to create lasting, healthy transformations.

She also offers two free resources to help you begin your own transformation journey:

Free Weight Loss Masterclass: How to Stop the “Start Over Tomorrow” Weight Struggle Cycle and Start Releasing Weight for Good - a 75-minute session that includes a light hypnosis experience to help you identify and remove subconscious barriers to weight loss. Join here
Free Smoking Cessation Masterclass: How to Stop Smoking Without Withdrawal, Cravings, or Weight Gain — a practical, empowering approach to quitting for good. - Join Here

Links and resources:

Visit Rita’s website here
YOU, the Non-Smoker? Yes, it's Possible - learn more here
Follow Rita on Instagram

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Rita. I'm so happy to have you.
Rita: I'm really excited to be here, Michelle, and have a great conversation about the mind with you.
Michelle: Yes, the mind, it really uh, is so powerful, oftentimes ignored. We just talked about that
in the pre-talk, Oftentimes ignored because it's hard to really wrap your hands around, it's not something that you can touch and feel. It's something that can paint your perspective and you can't, you don't even realize it's doing that.
Rita: Yeah, I mean, our thoughts either own us or we own our thoughts, our habits either own us or we own us. And I have, interestingly, because I'm older than you, when I started my practice, it was pre cell phones
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Rita: something that I noticed just like, why, you know, we, and this will be relevant to just what you said.
Is that prior to 2007 when the iPhone, I believe first came on the market people's brains were different than they are now. People are like uh,[00:01:00]
Michelle: is so true.
Rita: Much more short attention span. Everybody thinks they have a DHD, although it's just that our brains are overstimulated, overwhelmed the digital era now AI is just like taking it, ratcheted it up, just.
Crazy. And so I think we are gonna be entering into a new era of brain management. Like where, you know, we, we manage our health, but we also recognize from the moment we wake up, we're either managing our brain or our brain is managing us.
Michelle: so true. I wanna get to that. That is absolutely true. I actually find myself now. I'm like, I'm gonna write my copy. I'm gonna, you know, like I, I do get help of course, you know,
because you can't do everything. It's almost like I look at it like AI is an assistant, so, I'm still the CEO, I'm gonna, you know, manage my own creativity. And I used to probably rely a little bit more, and now I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna write this. I'm gonna think this. I'm, I'm finding myself like bringing that naturally back. And wanting to, [00:02:00] and wanting to kind of like, almost like assert my own uniqueness as a human
Rita: I think we are gonna find, I mean, because this is just, incubating stages of this, you know, as we human beings learn to interact with AI and our brains. I am doing the same thing as you. I am like, oh, this is kind of like a brain muscle, and if I don't keep flexing my brain muscle, I will get flabby and I won't be able to create my own copy, or I won't be able to come up with ideas.
I'll just become relying on this thing outside of me and until they create the brain shift that go in our
Michelle: Yeah, I know. Oh
God. It's like total
Rita: in steroids.
Michelle: Yeah, it's gonna be like insane.
So, so actually before we get started, I'd love for you to tell us your origin story.
Which I always love to hear just a little bit more about you and how you got interested in the work that you do, and specifically like how you [00:03:00] even niched on that.
Rita: Yeah, well I niched from the very beginning because I actually was somebody who was a pack and a half a day smoker, and I also struggled with my weight up and down the scale of 40 pounds and from a very early age. So I, I was in my early thirties and just a hot mess and had tried to quit smoking a number of times and, and sometimes successfully, like, I could get a year under my belt, but I would always, always, always go back.
And I just found it really hard and, and my husband smoked. And so anyway, a friend of mine went to a hypnotherapist and you know, this was in the nineties and. We're so much like even meditation people were not talking about it. It was just like, that was just going to, a hypnotherapist was still really outside the norm of some sort of, you know, like modalities, like acupuncture.
I know you do acupuncture. It's just like [00:04:00] all of that was still like, seemed really granola, hippie dippy, you know? Woo. And not practical application. And she said this, and I was like, hypnosis, like, you know, and you picture this guy with a mustache and a polyester jacket and he's waving a watch in
Michelle: That's gonna make you bark.
Rita: and he is gonna make you bark and collect like a duck.
And I was like, really? And she's like, I stopped in one session and I have had no cravings and I. Don't even care that, you know, like, I don't even want a cigarette. No regrets. I was like, huh, what? Okay, well maybe I'm a little more interested now. And so I went and saw the same hypnotherapist and you know, when you go to somebody who's not just somebody that heals you or is, you know, a practitioner, but that they're a teacher as well, they just really love what they do and they wanna.
Michelle: Yes.
Rita: You know, lay it all on you. And so this guy was really awesome. He was this older British gentleman. This was in Venice, [00:05:00] California. I live in Los Angeles. And and he explained how the mind worked to me. Like he, he, he wasn't just like, get in the chair and I'm gonna hypnotize you. He was like, this is why it's been hard for you.
I can explain kind of at the same time is that, you know, he was explaining like, I have this model behind me. For those of you listening audio, it's like only 12% of your mind is the conscious, critical, analytical part of your mind. That is the part of the mind that wants to quit smoking. The other 88%, the part of you that believes smoking, you know your beliefs.
So the part of my brain that believed. Smoking calmed me down and was great after a meal and helped me wake up in the morning. And all that power in my brain had given that was in my subconscious. And so was the patterns, like the pattern of smoking after a meal or when I got in my car or what have you.
and then just the identity of being a smoker. 'cause whenever I went to quit smoking, I was always a smoker who was trying to quit smoking. And [00:06:00] so my brain still. Thought of me as a smoker. And so what happened in the session was I, you know, so he explained that, over from birth until we're in our twenties, everything, our parents, teachers life experiences get imprinted in our subconscious.
And this critical filter is formed so that. Anything coming in, no matter if you're reading studies about how bad smoking is for you no matter how many people outside of you are telling you quit smoking, it's bad for you, et cetera. The other 88% is like, when am I gonna get my next cigarette? It doesn't
Michelle: Hmm. Yeah.
Rita: And, and so the part of your mind that is driving whatever behavior, whether it's smoking, whether it's overeating, or or nail picking or hair pick picking or any of negative habits. The conscious part of you is like, I want the change, but the subconscious is like business as usual. We is driving you to engage in that same behavior over and over again below your conscious awareness.
[00:07:00] So how hypnosis is helpful is it relaxes the critical filter. So suggestions can be given and really quickly, well, at least for smoking, weight is a little different. It's a little more slow because we can't stop food. But we can stop nicotine. We don't need nicotine in order to live. So, in that one session, I stepped into being a non-smoker.
So I stepped into a non-smoking identity. I shifted my focus to being a happy, healthy non-smoker. I let, it was like shedding of a skin, like, you know, snakes, sheds the skin. and I left that session and I was like. I totally get it. It's not like I forgot that I smoked, like I think some people think you take smoking out of your brain and you throw it away.
When you do hypnosis or somebody, you, you wake up out of this trance and go, I used to smoke. That's crazy. It wasn't like that, but I left the session going. I'm a non-smoker and, and I [00:08:00] just don't do that anymore. and so I was able to hang out with friends because this was the nineties. People still smoked in bars and, you know, around it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like,
Michelle: right.
So you were exposed to it. It's hard.
Rita: Yeah. And, and I just was like, that's something you do. I, I just don't do it anymore. And I wasn't like waving my hand and being an annoying non-smoker, you know, being shaming people about it. It was just like, okay, I, I don't do that anymore. So, so that was my first. Taste of hypnosis and, and what happened after that?
Because that was such a, like my, you know, one of those life shifting experiences where sort of the penny dropped and I was like, aha, I bet the same is challenging for my yo-yo dieting. You know, maybe. My conscious mind wants to lose weight and knows how to lose weight. Like I read every diet book. It wasn't like I lacked information, but this other subconscious part of my mind, my habits, my beliefs, even my identity.
[00:09:00] Like we, we start to, we really believe we're a weight struggler, and so we're always struggling against being a struggler and, and really bring that, that identity kind of locks us into this whole weight struggle world. And holds us captive. And so, that's when I started exploring hypnosis for weight management.
And, and the rest is history. I lost 40 pounds. I kept him off for 30 years. And, and have used hypnosis every day of my life, you know, for you know, do self hypnosis in the morning for just changing whatever I can about my life because there's always something I can make better, you know?
Michelle: talk about self hypnosis. 'cause that's always really, really
Rita: Yeah. Well,
Michelle: what is that? For
who have never heard of
Rita: Yeah, I mean, self-hypnosis, if you wanna think about it, it is sort of meditation with a mission, right? Like you're going into a relaxed state, but you are using your mind, and most of the time a [00:10:00] self-hypnosis session, you're gonna focus on what you wanna create. Like where you're gonna put your focus rather than what you're not going to do.
Because the brain doesn't really process negatives. It's like if we're like, I don't wanna go to McDonald's, it, here's, go to McDonald's. Right? Like, don't go to McDonald's. Right. So the brain, and, and if you ask, I mean, it's always amazing to me and maybe to you as well because I know I know you're working with fertility, but you know, a lot of times.
People, if you ask 'em like, well, what do you wanna create? What do you wanna do in your life? they're more clear on what they don't want versus what they do.
Michelle: So
Rita: So, so when we really actually sit and have to think about like, what do I really wanna create? And the way then. just doing that helps your brain get clear, get specific and, and the more specific you are for your brain.
'cause your brain is sort of like ai, it's like a, you can code it and say this is what I want. [00:11:00] Right. But you have to be specific. You have to be persistent, especially with things that. You know, like weight management is like, you have to keep going at it. It's not one and done. Like hypnosis for smoking cessation can be, but I think, so the way I coach people for a self hypnosis would be either to create a really clear vision of what you want and then have a.
I call it the movie theater technique where you just kind of play what you're doing, like what you don't want, like the behavior you're, you're not wanting to engage in. And you play that through a couple of times and you imagine it like you're watching a screen and you're watching yourself on the screen doing whatever, like, you know.
Snacking after dinner, like getting up, going to the cupboard, you know, eating, whatever. Right? And, and that's a pattern that the brain has gotten used to. So to interrupt that pattern, you are gonna say, well, what would I do instead? Because all the time we're like, well, I don't wanna eat after dinner. But you're not giving the, the brain [00:12:00] directions to what you want to do.
After dinner. Right? And so what we wanna do is, is then once we play out the scene that we, we've been doing, we, reverse, like hitting rewind on the tv and then you put in the behavior you do. And you play that over and over again like three or four times, and you just keep doing that. And, and the best time for self-hypnosis is the morning, especially like if you're working on a behavior during the day.
Because once you get to, like for instance, for night eating, once you get to the night, the train is left, the station, the, the brain is already engaged in that pattern. So you're not gonna change it in the middle of a pattern. But in the morning when you're in a relaxed state. Like athletes will practice the game in their mind ahead of time so that they get the moves in and, and their brain is already primed for that particular action.
If you're doing that early in the morning [00:13:00] and when you have the most willpower and your brain is at its highest sort of freshest state, and you're going tonight after dinner, I'm gonna sit, watch tv, I'm gonna get up and stretch. Maybe I'll make a cup of herbal tea. See yourself doing it, seeing yourself.
Practicing then going to bed, feeling light and aligned with myself and,
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Rita: and then so you watch yourself do it a couple of times, and then you step into the movie screen and you feel. What it would feel like to go through, like for instance, the evening of, of fasting and that feeling brain gets engaged.
The reticular activation system gets engaged and, and that's really where the power is in the feeling brain. But it's, it's helpful to like see it and then engage another really easy and this, so I don't, I, if I wanna make a behavioral change, I will do that. Especially if it's very anchored into my day.
But if I wanna work on [00:14:00] myself, like if I wanna improve myself, like let's say what I do is I make a gratitude list as if those things already happened.
Michelle: Yeah.
Rita: And then I'll read it and, and this is something super simple that all of your, your listeners can do is you grab your phone, you grab the hit record, you write down the list of the things that you wanna create.
And don't make it overwhelming. Make it simple. Don't, you know, say. You know, I'm going to quit smoking and run a
Michelle: million mansion, you know?
Rita: and build a yeah. Million dollar reaction. You ha your brain has to kind of buy into it. It has to be believable enough that you can go, okay, I can, I can see this. You know, you know, I mean, you can project 10 years out into the future and say, and that's when my.
You know, Gulfstream jet will come and pick me up and take me to, you know, Greece or whatever, but, for this month, you know, I'm just going to see myself taking out the garbage after dinner and making sure that I, you know, walk and do the my healthy stuff. [00:15:00] So, so, but what, how I've slowly reiterated, you know, my life over the years.
It, it like, and this happens like with motherhood. 'cause I'm a mother, I'm an empty nester now, but I, raised two children and even when I was trying to get pregnant, because it was hard for me to get pregnant I started late, you know, and had my daughter when I was 37 and my son when I was 41.
And I, visualized that, I gave gratitude for that. But. So, so write a gratitude list of things that maybe are short term things that you can accomplish, but also things that you're really grateful for. Like, I'm always grateful for my health. I'm grateful for the health of my family.
I, you know, those, those kinds of things that are priming your brain in a positive, powerful way. I'm, I'm grateful that I'm exercising and having a healthy body. All those things. I, I usually focus on physical and mental and emotional health. I focus on the spiritual, like my connection to the universe. I focus on [00:16:00] money and finance and business goals.
You know, like I have like quadrants of things that I focus on, and I'll write them into my little list, and then I'll just simply hit record. I'll go to YouTube play a meditation thing, and I'll just slowly read. I am grateful that my body is healthy and strong. You know, I'm grateful that I have a powerful connection with my husband and we care for each other, you know, and those are like little daily reminders that remind my brain, oh yeah, you have this husband and you care for him.
And it helps prime my brain to be aware of all of those things in my life. And I think that that really, when I don't do it, I just, our brain is in survival mode. So it's kind of a wonderful,
Michelle: Yeah.
Rita: it is a pause before the day to just remember who you are and what you're up to in the world. And it primes your brain in a way that makes you a little extra aware and it moves you a little [00:17:00] forward.
And then you're gonna get into your day, you know, and it just is kind of, because we often wake up into a very negative head space. Oh, this isn't happening. And that's not happening because our, our brain is negativity biased. It is always gonna feed us negative stuff unless we work against it and say, no, no positive stuff.
Here we go.
Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Your mind. And that's why I want people like to hear this because sometimes we can judge ourselves for that, but that's actually like how your brain's wired.
However, your brain also, You are able to choose also.
Rita: yes.
Michelle: so you can actually take it to a place you wanna go.
But it's like when you're running, if you are running and then you look over to your side, you're gonna go in the direction that you're running or you're gonna bump into something. It's just better to look where you wanna go.
Rita: Focus is everything where you're putting your focus is your experience of your life, right? And so I, I [00:18:00] think starting the day with. Positive and, and I don't mean positive Pollyanna-ish, like it's so beautiful and life is great, but really grounded in you and grounded in what you connect with.
And, but just, but you're, you're just giving your brain that little extra. Focus and it's, literally chemical. You feel your body being flooded with the positive chemicals rather than cortisol and all the limiting chemicals that get flooded when we're like, it's dark outside and you know, I can't pay my bills and my husband's a jerk.
Michelle: yeah,
Rita: You know, so
Michelle: yeah. I know totally. And a couple of things came to my mind actually, as you were talking about identity. Identity I feel like is really like what's going to be driving the belief, the habit, and the protection or you know, all the things that
you have in there. So the identity is like everything.
[00:19:00] And I remember hearing that where they have like associative disorder, a personality disorder where they have, which used to be called multiple personality disorder, where the different disorders or the different personalities come in. Then whenever they come in, a person will have certain conditions, physical conditions, such as being allergic to orange juice, for example.
They'll get hives, another personality comes in, it's gone. They're not allergic. And the power of identifying. And then of course, in the fertility world. Women are given so many labels. They're going to their doctors, which kind of are hypnotherapist on their own, whether they're conscious of it or not. We know that with hypnotherapy, what works is having an authority figure of somebody that you really believe and trust like you put everything into. And then when a person like that will say, and, and they're, the thing is they're human and they have different opinions and they're not always [00:20:00] right. Because all of us have blind spots in all of us. Even if we're trained, up to the lazo, like we, you know, we
know everything. We're still gonna have our human perspective. So women will come in and they'll get the infertility, diag your infertile or infertility, and that identity
Rita: Yes.
Michelle: stays and, and it gets really stuck.
And I really wanna talk about that. I wanna talk about how. Your identity can impact your physical physiology.
Rita: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. It is so interesting with doctors because I think they also, and, and I'm not speaking to all doctors because doctors in a normal practice or in a normal healthcare institution I mean, in a way their brains have to sort of label you in order for them to like, oh, okay, well she's this and that.
I remember when I got pregnant at 37. For the first time, and then I was [00:21:00] labeled as elderly
Michelle: right, or geriatric pregnancy.
Rita: I just thought that was so hilarious. And my, my father-in-law is a doctor and he was like, yes, you're an elderly, you know, he's British. He's like, you're an elderly. Like not. But identity is very powerful.
And you know, something that. the physiology, I just know from behavioral change that when I work with people, we start with identity. And because we open up a new world, and I think in that wor new world and your brain, then your physical beingness comes into that because it's like for instance with smokers, I just was telling Michelle before.
We hit record that I worked with a man yesterday who was a vaper. You know, he had been vaping, he was actually sober. He had been, he actually is an addiction specialist, and he and his wife were just married. And she just found out that she was pregnant [00:22:00] and she had actually come in to see me like three months earlier to stop vaping.
And he was like, it's my turn now. I gotta, you know, now I'm gonna be a dad. I, I have to stop vaping. and I said to him, you know, just like you got sober, like you stepped into the sober identity, you didn't like stop. He was a heroin addict and, and an alcoholic. So, yeah. And he has been sober for 13 years and clean for 13 years, but,
Michelle: That's a hard thing to
Rita: oh my gosh.
Yeah. He was telling me, you know, it was such a story, but that I was like, you, you live in this world of smoking. And you have a relationship with it. And you have a relationship with yourself, right? So, and, and that's all wrapped up in your identity as a smoker or a vaper. And, this world, I call it the house of smoking, right?
Like you live in this house of smoking and when you're in this house. It's like in your subconscious mind, your cigarettes. I mean, and it's the same with with weight and food. [00:23:00] Your brain sees that as a relationship. it's like a friend or family, like your cigarettes or your vape is like a friend or family.
But you know, like, or, but the buddy it's is now the bully, you know? And the bully is like, you know, get outside and smoke. and it, doesn't care about you. It doesn't care about your health. It doesn't care about your future. It's because it's dopa, genetically driven.
Michelle: Yeah,
just like the phones are.
Rita: it's, the phones are ringing and it doesn't care.
It just wants you to do what it wants you to do. So I said, in order for us to, to, to, to shift, we can't like slap your hand and say, don't smoke. You have to leave that house. You have to, it's an abusive house and you have to create a new house, like with a foundation and a structure, and you have to change, you know, and that first step is identity.
You have to step into this, make the decision to be a non-smoker. And when you make that decision, I, and I was using for him the [00:24:00] analogy of he just got married, I said. The second you say, I do, you step into not doing marriage, but you are being a husband. And in that being, it changes your body. It changes your pain, and it changes who you are, how you breathe.
Just you know, your connection with your wife, the electricity that you bring to the, the relationship. It, it, it, all of these things get impacted. And, and he was like, oh, so it's an expansion rather than a contraction. And I was like, exactly. So you're stepping into this new place and you're seeing the world through the eyes of a non-smoker and that changes your brain, but it also changes your body.
And, and he was like, oh, okay. That, that, and then you, and then we talked about the structure because you know, we have the identity, which is sort of like the foundation of the house. And then the structure is the pattern or the habit, and then shifting that pattern from a [00:25:00] negative pattern to an engaged positive pattern, right?
Like being a non-smoker and creating your non-smoking self-care structure versus trying not to smoke after breakfast, like 'cause that creates a void in your brain. But when you're being a non-smoker, waking up as a non-smoker, having your coffee as a non-smoker, then it engages your brain in the beingness and the identity.
Michelle: right. That makes sense. So it's, it's kind of getting away from this resistant relationship with it.
Rita: And deprivation the idea, like without the word, without creates the void in your brain. Right. Or trying not to. And, and I imagine with fertility, it's, it's exactly the same. It's that. And, and I'm fascinated to hear how you work with that because it's a. It is a negative label and it creates yeah, a very limiting belief.
And once you kind of can break through and [00:26:00] see, I, I remember my, how my daughter, because my husband and I tried forever, forever to get pregnant. And it was serendipitous that I went to see my gynecologist. 'cause I was literally going, okay, the next step is. You know, a fertility treatment of some sort.
And she, she, you know, did an exam and she said, you know, you are ovulating right now. If you go home and have sex with your husband and you don't get pregnant, we'll know that there's a problem, but you could go, she, you know, planted that seed in my brain. It's. You could go home and get pregnant. And I was like, alright, I'm, I'll see you later.
And I ran home and I was like, I stopped my husband, whatever he was doing. I was like, alright. You know, but, and you know, sure enough I got pregnant. But it was like that belief that, 'cause I had been living in this very dark place and I was like, oh, okay. Like this is an opportunity. It can happen. I mean, I've been trying everything, you know, so it was powerful.
And the same with my [00:27:00] son, because it got even harder. I, it wasn't harder, it was just different being a woman over 40 because my ovulation cycle just got shorter. And so then I, I had to get more precise, but in that education and learning more about my body. That empowered me and that gave me a different, like, oh, I'm a woman who's empowered and creating her opportunity for pregnancy rather than I'm this old woman trying to get pregnant, you know,
Michelle: Right,
Rita: and
Michelle: which is, Why stories. This is one of the things that I find to be probably the most, one of the most powerful ways. To really open people's minds to own journey. Being successful is when they hear other people going through many years of struggle and then getting pregnant after 40. When they hear stories and they can see real life examples people overcoming something that they're currently in, I find that to be [00:28:00] like a really key factor, probably one of the most powerful, which is why like. together as a collective. Like memberships, people really love each other's perspectives and hearing from each other and connecting. 'cause when you, when you come at it from a collective and then see that there is this possibility, I think that that's kind of like that suggestion
from observing.
Wow, okay. Like this person who was going through exactly what I'm going through looked exactly like me, was. Able to after 40, and I had one really amazing story of a, a podcast guest at 46 randomly conceiving after years or spontaneously, you know, like after years and years, naturally. And she also knew, she kind of felt a call, like she felt intuitively like it was gonna be a girl.
She almost felt her when she was meditating, which is,
takes it to a whole other like, kind of, realm. But
it's really fascinating. So her story, I really landed with so many people [00:29:00] because. She's even tried egg donor and it didn't work,
and then it was just natural, like it just happened.
Rita: Interesting. You know, I to speak to what you were talking about is the collective unconscious with groups. Something our brain does and it's just part of probably being pack animals, I don't know, but we. See the people who are ahead of us in the road and our brain will literally on a, like an osmosis level, go, okay, I'm leveling up to that, whatever that leveling up me.
And it might be even physically. I have a friend I'll tell you a quick story. I'm 61 and my friend and I went to high school together and we recently connected at a reunion and hadn't seen her since high school and she told me. She and her husband were both professors, one at Yale, one at Harvard, like very highly educated people.
And they were back at I think his reunion in Harvard. And she was like [00:30:00] 45. They hadn't had children, like they were just very career oriented people, so they weren't necessarily trying to have a child, but, you know, they had a romantic passion and I, and then she was. She got pregnant. She didn't even know for three or four months.
'cause this is like a very heady woman who's in her head. And then she was like, somebody said, are you pregnant? They named their child ivy because of the Ivy League. I, I just thought that was so funny.
Michelle: That is funny.
Rita: but so she was 46 when she had her daughter. But I'll tell you another really quick crazy story.
'cause I know your listeners you know, want experience, strength, and hope. I had a client. Who was, and, and my friend Tam had never been told by all her doctors, oh, this is why she had never even tried to have a baby. 'cause she was told by all her doctors, you can't have, you won't be able to conceive, you won't
Michelle: Mm.
Rita: children.
And so she was like, okay. And then she, so she lived her life and like that. And then, but she got pregnant. And this other woman who was a client of mine, [00:31:00] same thing. Doctors are like, yeah, ain't gonna happen for you. So she just lived her life. She got pregnant at 53.
Michelle: Oh yeah, I've heard, I've heard stories like that.
Rita: Yeah,
Michelle: amazing. Amazing.
Rita: yeah.
Michelle: And it was a full term.
Rita: Oh yeah. And healthy. Healthy girl little girl. Yeah,
Michelle: Wow.
Amazing. I love, see, I love those stories. And then I always a lot of times I will start the conversation, especially if I have a new client or a patient that says you know, my, my time is up, or, you know, anything about their age, you know, well, I'm not getting any younger.
And then I tell them the, do you know how old? woman in the Guinness Book of World Records was to get pregnant, and they were like, no, 58.
Rita: Oh
Michelle: a woman in England of all places, because England doesn't have a lot of sunlight, so you're thinking like vitamin D deficiency. And she did. She got pregnant and had a baby, and it was, it was very random,
Rita: That is [00:32:00] crazy. I love that. Wow.
Michelle: Yeah. And it happened in China too. And you know they don't have IVF 'cause they only can have I think one child or there's like a
rule
Rita: correct. right, right.
Michelle: so it was an older couple. It was much older like, and it was just
Rita: Interesting.
Michelle: were not expecting That Yeah,
Rita: is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think the collective unconscious is very powerful. Mm-hmm.
Michelle: yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think that that's probably one of the reasons why, you know, it takes a lot for us to do something different. And then even if we do, you know, there's innovation, the, you know, sometimes we wanna like stay in the what's comfortable and what's known. So you almost go against that innovative thought.
It's kind of like the world is round, you know, what do you mean the world is wrong? You know?
and and so, but we do that to ourselves in our own life, our own limiting beliefs.
Rita: percent.
Michelle: Yeah.
Rita: hundred percent. I love that. World is round. The world is flat. [00:33:00] Yeah.
Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, so yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I, I think people can do. And what are some of the things that you offer.
Rita: I offer if people are interested in trying hypnosis, I do and, you know, are looking to get healthier. Weight management wise, I was struggling with weight. I have a free masterclass called How to Stop the Start Over Weight Struggle Cycle because we do get in a pattern of going on a diet, then going off and going on and going off and.
Becomes a habit. So we talk about breaking through the subconscious roadblocks that are keeping you in that pattern. And we do weight loss hypnosis, so that's a great one to try out hypnosis if you're interested in that kind of thing. I will give you the link and then I also, for those of you who are.
Have a loved one or somebody who is trying to quit smoking. I have how to quit smoking masterclass without cravings, withdrawal or weight gain. So it, it just, again, getting into how to use the mind effectively [00:34:00] to quit smoking because there's a lot of mythology around quitting smoking that just makes it seem so hard and it doesn't have to be.
Michelle: Oh, I love that because I do have a lot of clients that do do smoke and that their husbands smoke or, you know, so and it, it really, it throws a wrench in the whole fertility journey trying to conceive, 'cause it impacts men and women.
Rita: Right. I, I don't know that people realize a lot of time, and maybe you've educated your clients on this, but nicotine elevates your insulin, which then impacts your hormones. And so
Michelle: weight gain too.
Rita: it can like, and it, but the, the, the, a lot of people don't realize vaping does that too. So it's, I I think people think vaping is healthier because it doesn't smell and, you know, you aren't using something combustible, which is true.
But it
Michelle: But isn't it worse? Some people, I, I remember
Rita: oh.
Michelle: was [00:35:00] even worse 'cause of the chemicals.
Rita: The chemicals, but also most people who vape the, the, the dis distinction between the habit of vaping and the habit of smoking. And it's, it, you know, I remember, 'cause again, I was in a prac practice way before e-cigarettes and vaping came onto the market and when they did, I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be so horrible.
Because when somebody smokes, like, let's say half a pack a day, a pack a day. There's many, many times because you can't smoke indoors for the most part. There's many times to the brain, smoking's not an option because most of what drives smoking is dopamine, not nicotine. You know, people sleep through the night, they're fine without.
They're doses of nicotine, but the brain is dopamine driven through habit, and it will agitate the person for whatever. You know, you mentioned the ringing phone. It's like having a ringing phone. You wake up and you have the cigarette phone is ringing, and so with [00:36:00] smoking, you know, I finish a cigarette after breakfast and maybe it's not an option for a couple of hours while I'm at work, until I get to lunch or until a break or whatever.
Vaping because you can do it from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to bed, the brain is always
Michelle: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what happens is 99.9% of the people that I work with vape from, like they literally, it's by their bed. They vape from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to bed.
Rita: You know, with very little breaks in between. And so that amount of nicotine. And the amount of, and they think they're super addicted to nicotine. No, they're not. It's the dopamine that's driving the habit. But, but the nicotine is elevating their insulin so much that that is impacting their, the balance of their hormones.
So it does it that, and the chemicals, I don't know what the chemicals do, I'll be honest with you, but I know the elevated insulin levels, you know, are shown [00:37:00] to impact hormones, pre-diabetes, Alzheimer's, dementia. I mean, like, it's just. It's not any, in my mind, it's not any better than smoking. I mean healthier for sure.
Michelle: Yeah. for sure. So, yeah, I think this is gonna be actually a couple people that I'm thinking about to send them to you.
Rita: Oh, okay. Well, I, yeah, I have a program online. I have programs that are online and. They're, you know, very affordable and easy to access. So, but just, you know, if, if you are listening, if you're a male or a female and your spouse is the smoker, the one thing I would say is they, you know, the masterclass might be helpful for them because you, you can't, I get calls all the time, make my husband quit smoking.
I'm like, sorry. He needs to actually want to stop
Michelle: That's so true. Yes. That I, I kinda had a feeling you were gonna say that
Rita: Yeah.
Michelle: to come, needs to want
Rita: Yeah. But you know, once, once men especially understand, [00:38:00] I I, you know, dunno what kind of terminology I can use on this, but you know, I've had some very famous men who come in who are real tough guys. Like, 'cause I work in LA so I work with celebrities, I work with, you know, ALIST Superstars.
You know, some of them are like really tough guys. You are like, and they'll come in, they'll be like all macho and everything. And I'll be like, well, but you're the bitch of your cigarettes or you're the, you know, they're like, look at me, like, what? And I was like, yeah, they kind of control you and you, you just hop to it whenever they call.
And they're like, oh yeah, you're right. And it kind of uses that. And I'm sorry if I, if you have to blurb out
Michelle: Oh, No. It's Okay. Yeah.
Rita: But it's the perfect terminology for what it is because we become the slave of that thing. And when, you know, when you're saying, well, it's not healthy for you, the brain doesn't care.
But when you are like, that thing owns you and, and you don't have any say in the matter. [00:39:00] That starts to get under people's skin, that starts to bug them and, and their sense of themselves. So that's, that's a better tactic
Michelle: Hmm. Yeah, that's true. That's actually really true.
Rita: Than the health piece, which nobody cares about. So.
Michelle: That's true. When it comes down to it. I mean that dopamine and that,
Rita: Yeah. Dopamine doesn't care about your health, but it is your sense of yourself. Like going back to identity is very important. So if something is getting interfering with a positive sense of you, you're gonna wor you're gonna wanna work to, to move that thing outta the way. And it's so, it's a gr it's a great mind shifter.
Really
Michelle: Ooh, I like that. That's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation. Anytime I get to talk about the mind and.
Ask questions, Of experts like you. I love it because it's just so much fun. It's empowering. That's the cool thing
about it. I really find that it's empowering 'cause I think that we could [00:40:00] very easily believe that we are being controlled and we have no choice in the matter.
And to know that you do on things that I guess we considered very hard. But what I found also interesting you were saying about quitting smoking is that we. Almost buy into the belief that it's impossible
to do.
Rita: I, I have this saying, I say that the nicotine and tobacco industry are bankrolled by two words, addiction and withdrawal. This idea, I'm an addict and I'm helpless, and you know, it's hard. And then, and then withdraw is a very powerful word. And when we think of withdrawal, we think of heroin, withdraw, like we think of like sweating and convulsing and pain.
But everybody, you know, I point out to people. You go to bed and you go through the night and you aren't in pain and you are withdrawing from nicotine. You know, the moment you put out a cigarette or put your vape down, you're withdrawing from nicotine. I have [00:41:00] clients who only smoke during the weekend, not on the weekends, because they go home to their wives and you know, their wives say you can't smoke around the kids, so they'll just leave their cigarettes at the office for the weekend and they're fine for the whole weekend because in their mind.
It's not an option and it's not an option. So when it's not an option, the brain doesn't bug you for it. You're okay. You can nicotine, withdraw. Is actually really not a big deal. But what people do experience in the first couple days is blood sugar insulin reregulation, which does create brain fog, can create those feelings of hangriness.
But if you see it as a healing process rather than a withdraw process, then it's a lot easier to really put it in a powerful place in your brain rather than a deprivational place in your brain.
Michelle: Right. Yeah. That's such a great reframe.
Rita: Yeah,
Michelle: Um, and it shifts, it shifts everything.
So, Yeah, that's it's amazing and it's empowering and I know that there's gotta be somebody listening to [00:42:00] this right now that either is struggling with it or their partners are. So I think that this, this is a great thing to know that there is a solution
that may not be as painful as you think.
So,
Rita: yeah. It can be incredibly empowering. So if you're listening, I hope this gives you hope and you're way more powerful than you think you are.
Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent. Well, thank you so much.
Rita: Well, it was lovely. Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed our conversation.
Michelle: Thank you so much. R. Awesome. So let me stop recording.

Michelle Oravitz 11/24/25 Michelle Oravitz 11/24/25

Ep 364 Misconceptions I See Daily as a Fertility Acupuncturist

Fertility acupuncturist Michelle Oravitz shares the top misconceptions she encounters in her practice, from misunderstanding ovulation and fearing fats to overlooking sperm health and the impact of stress. This episode offers practical insights and holistic guidance to help you approach conception with clarity, balance, and confidence.

In this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle Oravitz, fertility acupuncturist and holistic fertility coach, breaks down the most common misconceptions she encounters in her clinic. Drawing on nearly a decade of experience supporting couples on their fertility journey, Michelle sheds light on the myths that can hold people back from conceiving, from misunderstanding the fertile window and fearing healthy fats, to overdoing green juices and neglecting stress management.

You’ll learn why fertility is about more than just timing or diet, how mindset and nervous system health play a pivotal role, and why it’s essential to approach conception as a shared journey between partners. Whether you’re just beginning your fertility path or seeking to fine-tune your approach, this episode will empower you with knowledge and clarity to support your reproductive health naturally.

Key Takeaways:

Many women miscalculate ovulation and the fertile window, it’s not always mid-cycle.
Healthy fats like avocado, ghee, and full-fat dairy support hormone production.
Too much raw food and cold drinks can create a “cold womb,” affecting fertility.
Over-focusing on “doing all the right things” can increase stress and hinder conception.
Fertility is a shared responsibility, sperm health is just as crucial as egg health.
Seeking professional and emotional support can make the journey smoother and less isolating.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

[00:00:00]
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Channel. I'm Michelle Orbit, a fertility acupuncturist and host of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast, and today I'm going to cover five of the most common misconceptions I see when it comes to fertility health. In my close to 10 years of practicing acupuncture and specializing in fertility, I often see many people come in.
Speaker 2: And upon our first call we always discuss what my patients have done thus far. And here are many common misconceptions I see. And I thought about making a video because I'm sure if I see that in my practice that there's a lot of people out there that are also feeling the same way. But before we get started, make sure that you hit like and subscribe so that you don't miss any other episodes in the future when it comes to boosting your fertility health.
Speaker 2: So stay tuned.
Speaker 2: So one of the most [00:01:00] common misconceptions I get surround the time of ovulation and the fertile window. Many women believe that because they have a 28 day or even a 30 32 day cycle that they ovulate right in the middle. Many people also come to really trust their apps. So that is one of the most common misconceptions that I see is that just because your period is regular, that ovulation or your fertile window should be right in the middle.
Speaker 2: And also a lot of people don't realize that they have a fertile window that happens five days before ovulation. And this is because it's not something that we're really taught in school. And a lot of people don't really know this. So this is one of the common things that I see. A lot of people do know this, but some people are just starting their fertility journey and don't really realize that not only do we not know exactly when ovulation occurs, but the fertile window happens five days before.
Speaker 2: And that also, there are many tracking systems that they would need in order to really understand month to month [00:02:00] what their fertile window would be. And I've talked about this in many other podcasts. But this is just one aspect of what I see often. So I thought it would be important to cover this because it's just not taught enough.
Speaker 2: Another thing is that something that is considered healthy or thought to be healthy, which is low fat diets. So this is something that has been taught a long time ago, and right now it is actually being challenged. Because having high fats of healthy fats can really support hormone production. So people have been taught for so many years to be afraid of fats, but fats are actually really supportive to your fertility.
Speaker 2: In fact, there's studies that show that having dairy products that are whole based and not fat free or even skim tend to support fertility health. Versus skim milk or skim dairy products have been shown to have an adverse effect in supporting fertility health. So when it comes to healthy [00:03:00] fats, it's important to really find ones that are not things like trans fats or unhealthy fats that cause more inflammation.
Speaker 2: So you wanna think about things like nuts, seeds, as long as you're not allergic to 'em. And then also full fat dairy and things like yogurt are really supportive. As long again as you're not allergic to them. And avocados are amazing and even salmon is really healthy and it's optimal to avoid farmed salmon and go for wild caught salmon.
Speaker 2: And also cooking with coconut oil or even ghee, which is clarified butter, is really supportive. And making sure to couple that with proteins and healthy greens that are cooked and supportive starches like. Sweet potato or plantains. But most importantly, do not be afraid of fats because fats are the backbones of hormone production and they're very necessary in order to support our reproductive health.
Speaker 2: So number three, this is another [00:04:00] misconception. That I often hear is juicing all the time. Lots of green juices, lots of smoothies, really, really eating all raw vegetables, not so great. Not that it's bad to completely have any raw vegetables at all. It's just that you might wanna consider a 2080 rule. So 20% could be raw, but 80% of your vegetable intake should be cooked.
Speaker 2: And the reason for this is that. Too much raw, according to Chinese medicine, contributes to cold in your system. And when you have a cold womb, it is not really compatible or supportive for conception. So Chinese medicine, we often do a lot of things to warm the wound. We even have something called ion, which we do in office and.
Speaker 2: This is safely burning a certain type of herb, and this herb creates more warmth in your womb. And the reason for this is because when you think about anything that is warm, it helps things to flow. So if [00:05:00] something's too cold, it becomes stuck, stagnant, and slower to move. And we want a lot of movement in the womb and think about blood flow, blood movement, qi movement.
Speaker 2: We really wanna support that healthy vitality in the womb area. And so it's really important not to have too much cold. And this is also to avoid anything that is like cold drinks, ice cream or ice cold smoothies. So you might be eating like really, really healthy vegetables and fruits, but having it ice cold that.
Speaker 2: Really impacts your digestive system and the stagnation in your stomach as well. And think about your stomach very similar to that of an oven or a stove top. It needs to be warm in order to cook the food. And this is why we have acid. So Chinese medicine, we see that. And also Ayurvedic medicine where they talk about Agni is that it's important that it has a warm environment in order to digest the food.
Speaker 2: And so we have something called. [00:06:00] Triple burners. And so we have three different burners and one of them is our stomach, and this is one of the areas that we're cooking our food basically, so that we're supporting the whole digestive process. And I've talked a lot about this on the show, is that the digestive process is incredibly supportive and necessary in order to have a good, healthy reproductive system.
Speaker 2: So consider a cold womb like freezing soil, and you don't wanna plant a seed in cold soil. You want something that is warm. Nourishing and supportive. So another misconception that I often find is people feel that they have to address every single thing possible. And this could be really doing all the right things.
Speaker 2: And sometimes when you're doing all the right things and you're completely ignoring. The stress that that can cause. Then it almost erases everything that you're doing because if you're increasing the stress and not realizing that the cortisol is rising, or your nervous system is misregulated, or it's impacting your sleep [00:07:00] and causing so much stress, that stress can weigh so heavy on your reproductive health.
Speaker 2: And this is something that I often see is ignored because many times we don't really pay attention to what are we're thinking about because that feels like something we can't really control. We feel like we can only control something that's in front of us or things that we see in our material world.
Speaker 2: However, our state of minds are really, really important, and really, really impactful when it comes to reproductive health. Our nervous system being in fight or flight can cause a host of problems. It can impact your digestive system. Which can increase inflammation, it can impact your sleep and ability for your body to restore itself.
Speaker 2: And it also takes you into survival and outside of a creative state of your body, which is reproduction. So it's really important to pay attention to that. And there's been studies that have shown that IVF has been more successful when women are reducing their stress loads. [00:08:00] And not only that, when you are able to do that and get into a mindfulness practice, you're going to improve your quality of life and you're gonna feel better when you need it most.
Speaker 2: So you're gonna be able to fill your cup when you need it at a very stressful time, like the fertility journey. So one of the things that I often suggest is try to remember things that made you happy before you started your fertility journey. Some of the things that you used to do with your partner, which really brought you joy, and also things that tend to bring you into the present moment.
Speaker 2: What are those? Maybe sit down and write a list. All the things that you used to do that you kind of felt, and this is kind of like another micro misconception that we have to put those things on hold. Think about those things and maybe bring them back to your life. So even once a day, doing something, like listening to a song that just made you happy when you were in your teenage years.
Speaker 2: Something that really brings you back to a happy place. If you could do that at least once a day, and it could be [00:09:00] even walking, taking a walk outside or singing around the house, anything, anything that really brings you some joy. And if you start to do that little by little, you can add little breaks in your consciousness so that you're bringing yourself to a.
Speaker 2: Of joy and who doesn't want joy. Another common misconception that I see is that it's all on the woman, and that's completely not the case. And many miscarriages happen because of the sperm quality and not just the egg quality. So it's really important to address both partner's health and make sure to go to a physician that is going to be considering the sperm health just as much as they consider the egg health.
Speaker 2: And also know that everything that you're doing for egg quality. Your partner should be doing as well for sperm quality so that this is a partnership and this is not just one piece of the puzzle. And some of the things that you can do in order to increase both sperm and egg quality are eating healthy fats like mentioned before, [00:10:00] omega threes, lowering inflammation, nervous system reset.
Speaker 2: Is great for both partners and also increasing antioxidants in foods. And the part about the joy could be applied to both partners as well. And lastly, the last thing that I often see is that many couples try to go through this alone and they don't really seek the proper help. And this could be even after losses where they need more emotional support.
Speaker 2: And this can make it really difficult, and sometimes in many cases, not getting the proper support. Can make the journey longer than it needs to be. Whereas if they do get the support and not just the support, the proper support, maybe getting multiple consultations and opinions so that they know that they're working with the right person so that they're not feeling like they have to figure it out alone.
Speaker 2: And luckily, there are a lot of great resources. Resolve is a great organization that you can take a look at. And even having a fertility coach who can guide you and your partner through the journey, because fertility coaches really understand the whole [00:11:00] process and they can shed some light on things that you might not realize.
Speaker 2: But most importantly, really finding whoever you feel aligned with and really knowing that there is support out there and that a lot of people are going through this. There's a lot more support than people realize. So if you heard me talking about nervous system reset and you're like, what even is that?
Speaker 2: I have a great ebook that you can find in the description called Be Calm, and I talk about how to stimulate the vagus nerve in order to regulate your nervous system and it's completely free. So definitely check it out. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you got some good information from this.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I'll see you next time.

Michelle Oravitz 11/17/25 Michelle Oravitz 11/17/25

Ep 363 Healing Through Mind and Body with Lauren Enright

Fertility coach and former neuroscientist Lauren Enright joins Michelle to share how releasing perfectionism and reconnecting with your body’s innate wisdom can transform your fertility journey from stress to flow. Learn how breathwork, mindfulness, and nervous system regulation can awaken your natural fertile energy.

What if your fertility journey didn’t have to feel like constant striving? What if ease, joy, and trust could actually create the space for conception to unfold naturally?

In this episode, Lauren Enright, a mind-body fertility coach, birth doula, and former neuroscientist, shares how to move from overthinking and perfectionism to deep embodied trust. She explains how nervous system regulation, breathwork, and mindfulness practices can awaken your body’s innate fertile energy and transform how you experience your path to motherhood.

Key Takeaways:

Why perfectionism and overplanning can block your natural fertile flow.
How regulating the nervous system helps balance the yin and yang of fertility.
The simple breathwork technique Lauren uses to activate the parasympathetic response.
The science behind visualization and how it reprograms the mind for healing.
How mindfulness and slowing down reconnect you to your body’s innate wisdom.

Guest Bio:
Lauren Enright is an internationally sought-after mind-body fertility coach, birth doula, and expert in fertility yoga, meditation, and mindfulness. With a unique background as a former neuroscientist and science teacher, Lauren blends evidence-based understanding with spiritual insight to help women release perfectionism and overthinking on their fertility journey. Through her signature mind-body approach, she guides women to reconnect with their body’s innate wisdom, regulate their nervous systems, and awaken the fertile energy within. Her mission is to empower women to trust their intuition, break free from stress cycles, and welcome conception with ease, joy, and love.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Join me inside The Wholesome Fertility Collective. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewholesomefertilitycollective

Vaginal Microbiome test: https://www.fertilysis.com Use coupon code WHOLESOMEFERTILITY

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 363 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Lauren Enright. Lauren is an internationally sought after mind body fertility coach. Birth doula and fertility, yoga, meditation, and mindfulness expert who empowers driven women to finally shed the weight of perfectionism Over planning and overthinking, she helps them transform their fertility journey from a stressful pursuit into a joyous unfolding, reconnecting with their body's innate wisdom to unleash the fertile energy.
Speaker: Needed to call in their baby with a unique background As a former neuroscientist and high school science teacher, coupled with her own journey through anxiety and finding healing via MINDBODY practices, Lauren offers an unparalleled blend of scientific rigor and spiritual wisdom. As you might know, that is my [00:01:00] cup of tea.
Speaker: She intimately understands the path from disconnection to deep embodied trust. Lauren Guides accomplished women to discover a radically different approach to fertility. One that prioritizes being over relentless doing, leading not only to more joy, but also to more receptive, fertile energy. Having experienced the profound joy of motherhood firsthand with her own two children, Lauren is deeply committed to helping women break free from cycles of intergenerational trauma and achieve the pregnancy and child they've worked so hard for.
Speaker: Her mission is to empower women to reclaim their bodies, trust their intuition, and welcome their babies with ease and love.

[00:02:00]
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Lauren. Hi, Michelle. Thank you.
Michelle: So nice to meet you, and I'm very excited about you being here. I really love the fact that you have a background in both science and understanding spirituality, which is kind of like my cup of tea. So I would love for you to give us your background story, your origin story, and how you got into the work that you're doing.
Lauren: Yeah.
Lauren: so I would say that it was the, there's a few kind of key points in the story and so I'd say the first one was the birth of my son at, in 2016. So I had a really beautiful birth. At a midwifery center. At a birthing center, and he was my second and it was my second birth. And my first birth was at a hospital.
Lauren: [00:03:00] And so what it gave me was this beautiful perspective of how when you give birth in a little bit more of a holistic kind of natural setting that it can lead to a very, very empowering experience. And so it was just, you know, I still remember that feeling of after my son was born, just feeling like. A fricking rockstar, like it was just so incredible and I had no idea that that was possible.
Lauren: And so after, maybe he was about six months old, and I was thinking about going back to my job as a high school science teacher. So I, at the time I had been teaching high school science for almost a decade. And I was like, no. I'm like, I don't wanna do it. I, I want to change career paths.
Lauren: I want to become, and at the time, I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do, but I was really inspired to go into midwifery. And when I looked into what the training was gonna involve, I was not ready to go back to school for another four years at that point. And [00:04:00] so that's why becoming a birth doula became very attractive to me because it was a little bit of a less extensive training allowed for a little bit more flexibility.
Lauren: And I really just wanted, at the end of the day to empower women to have like really, really to have the knowledge, to have the education, and to feel empowered as they went through pregnancy and birth. And so I became a birth doula first and foremost before I got into my fertility work. And I was al already a yoga teacher.
Lauren: And so when I went into this world of like perinatal wellness then I started to specialize in prenatal yoga. So I was teaching prenatal yoga. I was a birth doula. I was teaching mom and baby yoga, and that was amazing until this thing called COVID happened.
Lauren: And I wasn't able to, to do that work anymore because I wasn't able to go into yoga studios.
Lauren: Yoga studios had shut down. I wasn't able to go to births because I was not allowed to be in hospitals. And so that's kind of what made me, or gave me the opportunity. I always see silver linings, so at the [00:05:00] time I was like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna start teaching yoga online. I had never ever taught yoga online before.
Lauren: I didn't own a mic. I didn't own a camera, but I figured it out. And from there I started offering six week online yoga series. And then that's when I got into the fertility work because I was really interested in a program that was being offered called a fertility specialist certification by a. A school in Toronto, so I'm based in Montreal and so I had done my doula training with a school called Babe Mia, and they offered this fertility specialist certification course and I was like, you know, that sounds like it's for me.
Lauren: Like I really wanna be able to support women through all phases of this motherhood journey. So I did that, and then I started offering a fertility support group. And then I started teaching fertility yoga. And then I got into developing my MINDBODY fertility program. And so today that.
Lauren: is the main program that I'm offering is MINDBODY Fertility Coaching to women all over the world Now.
Michelle: I love [00:06:00] that. And I know that you also have a background neuroscience, which is so fascinating to me. I follow Dr. Joe Dispenza and he, I mean, a lot of what he does is like neuroscience and then kind of bridging that. With spirituality and how to really hack the mind. I think that that's always been a mystery for people because I think many people know deep down, either deep down or, from some of the things that they study, that yes, we can do a lot with our minds, but it always comes down to the how, like, how can you translate that into like really making a change.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And I also love Joe Dispenza's work.
Michelle: Yeah, I was sure you did. Just based on like reading all of your background.
Lauren: Yeah. And the, the neuroscience, it was a phase of my life where I was deeply, deeply interested in human behavior. I still am today. And the brain and I went on to pursue graduate studies, and at the time I [00:07:00] was PhD track, but I was using a protocol that involved mice. And so I was working with mice.
Lauren: What I learned after those two years of I, I decided to stop at my master's degree and not can pursue the PhD because I realized I really just wanted to work with people and not with animals and not be in a lab in front of a microscope. And then that's what ultimately led me to to teaching science.
Michelle: That's so interesting. So how do you relate? You know, it's interesting 'cause like my background is in architecture and now I do a lot of healing and I do acupuncture and online coaching. But like the acupuncture aspect of it, As I put the needles in, I really see sort of what I learned with the architecture in the body, and it's interesting because I feel the same way, like there's a silver lining.
Michelle: Like even though you switch careers, you could still take what you've learned and reflect it on what you're doing today, even though it's different.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And I think I just found myself saying that to a client this morning [00:08:00] where I said, one of my gifts that I really see is that I'm able to see patterns.
Lauren: I do see myself in the work that I do today. I kind of see myself as a detective of trying to solve this infertility or why can't, can't I get pregnant mystery or problem?
Lauren: And I think being able to see patterns is really important because I have a lot of clients from, like I mentioned all over the world, and when you start to do this work for a while, you start to see those patterns emerge. And then I believe that that then. Helps me offer solutions to their problems because if there's a pattern, then there must be a commonality.
Lauren: And That's also, I'd say rooted in the scientific method of like, that's what we're doing as scientists. We're, we're looking for patterns and solutions.
Michelle: That's interesting that you say that. 'cause Chinese medicine, it's all about patterns and we look at patterns. They're basically to see what type of imbalance. So, one type of imbalance can have many different patterns that cause it. That's [00:09:00] why we don't just go after the symptom. Because a symptom can be derived from so many different patterns.
Michelle: So it's, it's kind of interesting that you look at it that way as well. And what are some of the patterns that you've seen? Obviously, you know, this isn't kind of like a generalized thing, but maybe you can tell us some instances or stories so that some people listening might be like, oh, that sounds like me.
Michelle: I.
Lauren: Yeah. so my work is primarily in the realm of the mind and the body, in the way of like my. Mindset and what are people's beliefs and how are those beliefs that they may not even be consciously aware of How those are informing their thought patterns, and then how the thought patterns are impacting, you know, and I say it's a two-way highway of like thoughts.
Lauren: Impact emotion, which impacts body, but it's not just always like a linear model. Right. And I really see it as they're all interacting. [00:10:00] And so I see. You know, so we could look at it from the perspective of what are the patterns I see in the thoughts, what are the patterns I see in the emotional body?
Lauren: Because I do see patterns in terms of repressed emotions that people are carrying. And then I also see it as kind of archetypes of certain personality types.
Michelle: Yeah.
Lauren: I, I tend to work with women who are perfectionists, so that's the one personality type that I'd say, you know, often. and I know just from following you in your work and reading your book, that it's, it's very similar.
Lauren: In that, you know, the, the perfectionist personality, that's the type of client that often comes to me saying like, Lauren, like I've been able to achieve everything that I've wanted in my life through hard work, and this is the one thing that I can't make happen through hard work. And so what I'd say about that personality type is that, you know, that hard work, and I know this language would resonate with you and your audience probably is like, it's the yang, it's the doing,
Lauren: uh, [00:11:00] and. So they're not used to, or it feels uncomfortable for them to be more in the receptive yin energy of, of surrender and of, of being.
Michelle: Yeah, you're totally speaking my language and it's true because. It's very subtle. Like that's the difference is that I think that we've been conditioned, you know, I think it's just a conditioning because we, you know, I know growing up the people that did the most and hard work and you know, those are the people that got pats on the back and then you feel like, wow, like I'm powerful.
Michelle: I'm able to do things. And yes, the yang has. A place, but it also you know, the yin also is necessary as well. So it's kind of like getting that combination of the two.
Lauren: Yeah.
Lauren: And, and they do need, and I think that's also hard for many of my clients is it we tend to, I think as a society, have this all or nothing thinking where It's one thing or [00:12:00] the other. And so I find my clients have a hard time wrapping their heads around this concept of like, well, we need both.
Lauren: Like, yes, we need to be in action taking and doing of course, in order to be able to get pregnant. You know? And we have to also know how to. Be and open to receive and surrender, and I think that's hard to like kind of know when to employ which strategy.
Michelle: It's true. It's true. So I know that I have like my certain ways of getting people to shift. What are some of the things that you do, because I know you mentioned also nervous system regulation and. That is definitely a big one because I think that the nervous system is such a reflection of the yin and the yang and the ability really like with a vagal tone to like shift from one to the other.
Michelle: I think that muscle is really what it's like the muscle of balance, I call it. So I would love to get your take on that and how you work with people to get them [00:13:00] to strengthen that muscle of like shifting and balancing.
Lauren: Right. So because I teach yoga and meditation and mindfulness, I do like to use those and breath work through the lens of yoga, which is more pranayama, which is slightly different, But I, I,
Michelle: make a difference the breath work. A lot of like what yoga teaches helps the nervous system.
Lauren: Yes, absolutely. Through the breath. And so I do like to teach these skills to my clients and not just teach them, but have them actually practice these skills so that they can then use them in real time in their. And so that word that you mentioned of like the muscle, I also like using that analogy because I think people can relate to, you know, if ever someone has gone to a gym to try to build muscle mass or done some form of training physically, then we can understand this idea of like, we have to do the reps.
Lauren: And then when we do the [00:14:00] reps, that's going to help build the muscle. And so that's why I like to really encourage in my program and with my clients, that they develop a regular meditation practice and a movement practice. I like to say movement in the form of yoga because I think that a slow mindful yoga practice is a really great way to help people embody, like become embodied, Right.
Lauren: They're not so much in their head and that they're more in their body.
Lauren: However, that being said, I think that it's an important principle no matter what type of movement we're doing, because if somebody is doing another type of activity can still be very much in your head. So I like to just, you know, all the time be really enforcing this idea of like mindfulness, of can we be in our body as we're doing these activ.
Lauren: So I would say that those are the skills that I'm getting people to practice, to put in their reps so that when a moment in their day comes, let's say, where they are upregulated, where they're feeling [00:15:00] agitated, where they're experiencing a spiral maybe of, of thoughts that are leading them into, you know, a dark place, right, that they have in the moment.
Lauren: The ability to bring awareness to it.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: In the moment to be able to respond to it and to not just be, feel like they're kind of a victim of their thoughts or that they, they are their thoughts, or that it's, that's reality. Right? And then kind of wait for, you know, next week when you do go to your yoga class to then work on it.
Lauren: Right? So it's like, it's not enough, I'd say to be, you know, just only doing yoga or doing meditation. On your yoga mat or on your meditation cushion, because we have to actually be taking those practices and then practicing, you know what? We practice on our mat, off our mat. We need to actually be able to bring those skills now into our day-to-day life so that they can serve us in the moments when we need them.
Michelle: Yeah, that's such a great. Point because [00:16:00] that is when those things sneak up. And I think that also a great point that you made is really like looking at your thoughts and knowing that they are not you. And because it's so e, because it's in our minds, we automatically identify with them and then therefore we give them such.
Michelle: Absolute truth and such. Faith in our thoughts and our thoughts are not really they're so shifting and changing. They're not stable. Things to put all of our faith into. And I think that the moment you become mindful, you start to become aware that you are the consciousness and the thoughts come and go and you're aware, you're able to be aware of your thoughts.
Michelle: That means you are not your thoughts. And I think that that whole idea or feeling is only something that comes out of meditation.
Lauren: Absolutely. And then it becomes very empowering because something that [00:17:00] a lot of my clients and I know from just knowing so intimately, you know, the, the pain and struggle that comes with infertility and, you know, struggles to get pregnant is that we feel out of control. I feel like that we're very much not in control of the situation, and so I like to offer to my clients that, well, you know, you do to a certain extent have control over the thoughts that you are thinking and, and one distinction I like to make is that sometimes those thoughts are on autopilot.
Lauren: So those autopilot are kind of programmed reaction thoughts. Those ones we don't have control over, but what we do get to control is if we choose. To believe them or not. Or if we choose to reframe so we can notice the thought that we're having. And then when we bring awareness to it, then we get to choose, do I want to believe that thought and that story?
Lauren: Or do I wanna actually tell a new story and start to insert a different, you know, empowering belief or a different mantra, mantra [00:18:00] or affirmation to really help me shift in my thinking?
Michelle: Right. And that's when you're consciously reprogramming Yes, yes.
Michelle: I love that. That's so cool. Amazing. So what are some of the things that you've seen that really kind of, shift the nervous system you were talking about like meditation. Are there things that are physically, like the, like breath work that can stimulate the vagus nerve that you're seeing that really makes a drastic change that somebody can use, like at the moment?
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. So I love the breath. The breath I think is the most accessible tool that we all have.
Lauren: We are. it's free.
Lauren: and it comes with us wherever we are.
Lauren: We don't need any special props. We don't need a guided audio, we don't have to put in our earbuds. Right. We can, when we can develop this ability to become aware and be mindful of how we are breathing, Right. then we get to use the breath as a way to help [00:19:00] us regulate.
Lauren: Right. And I really like to, because of the, the teacher in me, I love to take things that might seem complex and just make it really simple. I really think less is more. And so what I'd like to. I do like to teach my students and just recommend that everybody gets familiar with their breathing patterns.
Lauren: I think It's you know, I have a line and it's like you can't change what you're not aware of.
Michelle: Yeah.
Lauren: So awareness is always the key, the first piece. So that's why it's like, okay, so like what you breathe, like what is your inhale? Like, what is your exhale like fundamental, fundamental kind of breathing 1 0 1.
Lauren: Where do you feel your breath? A lot of people are chest breathers. And when we breathe in the chest, this makes our diaphragm tight. And then this can lead to just being in this chronic state of that regulation. So kind of simple, simple, fundamental breathing, 1 0 1. We wanna make sure that we're breathing three dimensionally, diaphragmatic breathing, so letting the belly expand when we breathe in.
Lauren: And we wanna be mindful of kind of [00:20:00] the, the length of our inhalation versus our exhalation. So the inhalation is linked to the sympathetic system, and then the exhalation is parasympathetic. So we either want it to be equal, equal length, inhale, exhale. Or if we're looking to downregulate, we wanna make the exhalation longer than the inhalation,
Lauren: and then it's simple. hack. It's great because it's, it's a great hack actually for insomnia. If people wake up and sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night from a noise or something, and then I'll try to go back to sleep. And then that's what I'll do. And it almost always, I don't even remember how I fell asleep, so I know it works.
Lauren: you are lucky that it's that easy. for me, it's not that easy to fall back asleep just by doing breath work
Michelle: they, um, there was something also on huberman. I knew that this was something that worked. I knew that like, inhale to four, exhale to eight. And then sometimes let it out. But then another thing is while your eyes are closed, look side to side and it helps. Yeah, it really
Lauren: yeah. And so that's [00:21:00] the other thing that I would offer for a somatic practice to help regulate the nervous system. And this is something I, I teach at every single coaching call that I do. And it's just with the eyes and it's using your peripheral vision.
Lauren: So if you can keep your eyes straight and then not move your head and then start to open up to your peripheral gaze while at the same time feeling like the eyes are going a little bit deeper into the eye socket, that just the act of shifting into your peripheral vision in that way really also helps activate the parasympathetic response.
Michelle: Oh, I love that. I haven't heard of that, like that specific exercise, so I love that.
Lauren: Yeah.
Michelle: Any other tidbits on, on parasympathetic tricks.
Lauren: Yeah, well,
Michelle: hearing those.
Lauren: so the breath and the eyes, and what I would also say is, is then coming to the, just, just this is super simple and it's just slowing down.
Michelle: Yeah,
Lauren: I find sometimes we have resistance to [00:22:00] things that are simple.
Michelle: yeah. This is true. as a society have this belief that in order to be worthwhile, it has to be hard and require effort.
Lauren: And it's just, you know, and I always say, well, just notice, you know, are you talking quickly? Are you moving quickly? Even like in the car, are you like, is there a sense of urgency about like getting from point A to point B? And so you're driving in this way of like urgency. And then can we just slow down, 1%, 2%, talk a little bit slower, move a little bit slower, and, and then that really also helps just bring us back into our body and, and activate the parasympathetic yes.
Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it sounds like it's coming back into the present moment because when we're so hyper-focused, we're thinking about the end point. We're not really focused on the moment, and when you do that. Like my, my whole idea, like my thought really about this and I guess I don't know if [00:23:00] there's like any specific proof, but in Chinese medicine are.
Michelle: Life force vitality is something that happens obviously only in the moment. And so our energy, our thoughts really emit energy. So when we have our consciousness and our awareness in the present moment, we're actually feeding more life force vitality in that moment. It's kind of like all of our energies in this one moment portal, rather than being divided between the past and the future.
Michelle: Now we all had moments like that in our lives where we had very important pivotal moments in our life where it was moments of joy when we had our family together, or there's some kind of like moment that was very momentous in our life. And it feels kind of surreal, but it you also find that you're so present that you feel so alive, and that's really what presence can offer you.
Lauren: Wow. [00:24:00] Amazing. I so love that.
Michelle: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah.
Lauren: 'cause I often talk about the power of the present moment to help anxious thinking. 'cause often the, the thoughts that we have that are leading to anxiety or often future based what ifs of like worst case scenario of things that will go wrong or that I am afraid of that might happen in the future.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: And then there's the idea of like the more kind of heavier depressive thoughts being thoughts from in the past on the timeline of, you know, and then there is often emotion caught up in, you know, it's either the shame or the judgment we're we're putting on ourselves for decisions we've made in the past.
Lauren: Either of those serve us. So it's like when we can come back to the here and now of the present moment, then we don't have to be in that thinking. But then I love your addition of that in the present moment. That's when we can access our vital life force energy and yoga, we call it prana. Prana
Michelle: Yeah, same thing. It's the same thing, just different
Michelle: language. And have you, have you heard of [00:25:00] He teaches all about that. And I highly recommend his, his books, both books. And then he has other supplemental, but there's like the two main ones, the Power of Now and the New Earth. I highly recommend if anybody's listening to this, check it out.
Michelle: 'cause it's one of those life changers. Like there's some books that are just life changers and a lot of it is him really coming into it in the present moment. In this moment. And he talks about being in the present, but. A lot of teachings is really reflected in ancient teachings and kind of like Buddhism and a lot of the betas about really coming into this present moment and when you really can release yourself from that past and the future, you're creating this sense of nirvana, thisness, and this freedom of self.
Lauren: Hmm.
Michelle: You feel free. When you feel free. Your nervous system's just like rocking, like, enjoy. It's like in, in, it's like major, major, hyper flow.
Lauren: I love it and [00:26:00] I can feel it in my body right now as we're having this conversation. And it's getting me really excited and I'm feeling that like high vibrational energy in my
Lauren: body. I don't get to have these types of conversations with a lot of people in my life. So it's so fun to be like on the total same page as someone.
Michelle: Yeah, no, I knew that we were on the same page. Even when we've, we've corresponded before and I was like, okay, when the time comes, we're gonna talk. And I knew that we're aligned just based on reading your information. So of course that's what happens when you're having aligned conversation. But also that just what you just said is how, much. Our minds respond to visualizations and sometimes that can come from cues of words. And so when your mind embodies a feeling and you really feel that, that's why visualizations, and I can't even say it's just visualization 'cause it's not. Just a vision, it's a sensory thing, and this is how we can sense [00:27:00] things in our dreams without actually having it physical.
Michelle: So that whole aspect of our mind and experience is not just in relation to the physical. So it is something that we can conjure up within us, which means, wow, we are powerful. Like we can do so much more just by choosing that thought.
Lauren: Yeah.
Lauren: I, I, I love that and I always teach that the body doesn't know the difference between something that's imagined and something that is real. And then this is the power of visualization. In the mind body connection is if we can, if we're, if we have, or we have perceived limitations in our physical body, and then we can bring into our mind a visualization of that being healed or that being reconciled.
Lauren: Then the body actually with time. And it's, I'd
Lauren: say something that requires, you know, time
Lauren: Although every now and then, right, [00:28:00] for somebody who just really catches on to this idea, it doesn't have to Happens at Dr. Joe Dispenza's retreats all the time. but a hundred percent what you're saying and there's signs to really back that up. There's signs that visualizations make like a huge difference in physiology. And then I love the whole like lemon visualization experiment.
Lauren: Yes. Yeah.
Lauren: I used to do that in my workshops just so people could have a, a lived experience of it to
Michelle: Yeah.
Michelle: Yeah, it's pretty wild if, people are hearing this for the first time, it's just imagining a lemon. Like you, you just go through this whole like visualization of experiencing the lemon and the sour taste going all the way in your throat and your mouth and really like getting into it. And probably about, I would say 90, not every single person has this, but like about 90% of the people in the room.
Michelle: We'll start to salivate and then you're like, well, why are you salivating? what's the difference? It's just the thought of a lemon actually made you salivate,
Lauren: and people are [00:29:00] probably salivating right now. Just hearing you tell the story like I am.
Michelle: yes, it's true. And so it's this physiological response. 'cause the reason why we salivate when we have a lemon is because this, the acid's not good for the teeth.
Michelle: It kind of like, dilutes the acid in our mouth.
Lauren: Interesting.
Michelle: So the thoughts, the thought of that, the fact that the thought of that can actually make a physiological response that's involuntary. 'cause you can't even tell yourself, oh, salivate and then salivate, it won't happen. So just the thought of that experience has an involuntary response, is just mind blowing.
Lauren: So cool. Yeah, and when I'm teaching about the MINDBODY connection and just trying, I, I'd like to think that most of the world is on board today about like this being a real,
Michelle: You'd like to think it. Yeah,
Lauren: but
Michelle: the, but it's like slow sometimes even with the science and the research, you know, sometimes it takes time.
Lauren: Yeah, but I.
Lauren: I do like to give two examples to people just to reinforce that this is, it is real, it is science. It's not just [00:30:00] some woowoo thing.
Lauren: And I talk about it in sports. So I used to be a highly competitive swimmer growing up and in sports, visualization is a big thing. Like any high performing athlete is doing visualization before their race. and, and so that is very good proof and evidence of like the power of visualization because it helps those high performance athletes perform better when they can actually visualize themselves going through their races.
Lauren: So that's one. And then the other one is just the placebo effect.
Lauren: And so the fact that the placebo effect, right. And I always like to tell people that the, you know, if someone tells you that you're taking a pill. It's gonna work, but there's no active ingredient and it and then It does work. like that is the placebo effect.
Lauren: So this is the power of our
Lauren: minds. Yeah.
Michelle: It's, it's like it works so well that it's a nuisance for a lot of researchers.
Lauren: for sure.
Michelle: Yeah. that's amazing stuff. I love everything that you're talking about and how, and I love the fact that you were talking about also like experiencing things [00:31:00] through the body and how, because I think that that.
Michelle: Such a key way to explore emotions where it won't be as overwhelming because most of us think that we have to solve it from the mind. And you know, I'm sure you've heard this before, you can't really solve, what was it Einstein. You can't really solve something from the same state that caused the problem.
Michelle: And so when we're trying to kind of spin our wheels and, and figure it out from the mind, and, and we're still like, you know, overwhelmed by the emotion, one of the most amazing ways to do this is through the body, like you said. And I think that that is key because it feels a lot less overwhelming.
Lauren: Right. It feels less overwhelming.
Lauren: I think, and then it's just. I think it's more power, powerful way, or not even powerful. Like to me it's, the only way. Like if we're not working with the body, when we're working to process emotion, then there's something [00:32:00] being missed and overlooked. And I think that, psychology, like modern psychology is definitely now onboard with that, that we can't just be doing this from a place of cognition and the mind and talk.
Lauren: And that it, it does need to, to incorporate the felt sense of the body. And I think this is why I'm currently doing a somatic experiencing practitioner training program, and I know that it's so much in demand right now, these programs because again, I think we're just really seeing that it's, we need to be addressing the body when we're working with trauma.
Michelle: Oh, big time. So, yeah. Yeah, totally. So I would love for, if you could share how you work with people and how people can find you.
Lauren: Right. So I am like, how, where people can find me online in the interwebs?
Michelle: Yeah, people. Yeah. And what programs do you
Lauren: Okay. Sounds good. Yeah. So on Instagram, I am at Fertile from within. I do also have a website, which is a [00:33:00] different name because my original account was Breathe with Lauren. So I have two Instagram accounts, but my fertility specific one is fertile from within.
Lauren: My website is Breathe with Lauren, and my main program that I offer? is a mind body coaching program called Fertile From Within. And I do do that as a group. I am starting my Autumn cohort next week. Uh, I do it in small groups. I love running groups because I think it is, I love being the, the guide and mentor for a group.
Lauren: I think there's a really special energy that comes together when we're in groups. I know that not everybody is necessarily comfortable in a group setting, and I'd say that's the exact reason to do it. because.
Michelle: They're powerful.
Lauren: that is good for our social nervous system and to help with nervous system regulation to show up, to allow yourself to be a little bit vulnerable, a little bit uncomfortable in this scenario.
Lauren: I always say that, you know, when it's a coaching program, it's not a support group where people are. just, I don't know, grieving [00:34:00] and in heaviness it's like definitely a higher energy kind of place of empowerment. We're gonna come here and support one another type of group. But I also do the work one-on-one.
Lauren: So for people that are interested in, in private coaching, that's something I also walk people through the program on a one-to-one basis.
Michelle: And just as a note this is gonna probably air a couple of like, maybe six weeks from now. So, if people were coming in a little later, they'd have another, is
Lauren: yes, yes. Of, yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: of course. So I do run the program like as a group twice a year, and then for when people are, so my next cohort will be in, probably starting in February. I usually give like the January is a month. To lead into it. And then I, I'll run it in February. It's a three month program and people get one-on-one coaching sessions and also group coaching sessions with me, but then they get the whole library.
Lauren: And that's why I believe that my program is so powerful and effective for people because it is integrating the mindset. [00:35:00] So call it the fertile mindset with the emotional body piece, with the nervous system regulation piece. And I say when we bring all of these things together, it.
Lauren: allows people to step into like the most fully fertile version of themselves.
Lauren: And with the coaching, they don't, you know, have to worry about getting. I know sometimes with, with do it.
Lauren: yourself courses, you get off track and there's, you know, some, we have the best intentions sometimes to finish and then we don't. So that's why I also include coaching so that people can really see the program through.
Michelle: Awesome. Well thank you so much Lauren. I knew that we were gonna have a great conversation and we totally did. So thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a great conversation.
Lauren: Yes, it was. I, it's like it's, it was too short. I wanna keep on talking. We'll have to do another one.
Michelle: Yes, for sure. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.
Lauren: Okay. And can I say one more thing?
Lauren: I don't know if we can add it. So also something that I have for your listeners and for [00:36:00] basically anybody who's on a fertility journey and wants to try mind body practices is I have a fertility mind body fertility toolkit, and that's something that includes two fertility yoga practices, two breathing exercises, and two meditations.
Lauren: And I offer that as a free toolkit. So I'd love to offer that.
Lauren: to your listeners.
Michelle: Perfect. Thank
Lauren: you
Lauren: so
Lauren: much,
Lauren: Lauren.
Lauren: You're welcome.
[00:37:00]

Michelle Oravitz 11/10/25 Michelle Oravitz 11/10/25

Ep 362 Could Your Uterine Lining Be Blocking Pregnancy?

Michelle explores the often-overlooked causes behind repeated miscarriages and failed embryo transfers. From thyroid imbalances to uterine inflammation and emotional healing, she shares practical insights and testing options that could transform your fertility journey.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle dives into one of the most emotionally challenging topics on the fertility journey, repeated miscarriages and failed embryo transfers. While these experiences can feel devastating, Michelle explains that they’re not always inevitable. With the right testing and deeper understanding of hidden factors like thyroid health, uterine microbiome, immune responses, and even sperm compatibility, many pregnancy losses and failed transfers can actually be prevented.

This episode sheds light on overlooked tests, lifestyle changes, and integrative approaches that can make all the difference in achieving a healthy pregnancy. If you’ve been through multiple losses or are preparing for a transfer, this conversation is filled with empowering insights and practical next steps that could change your path forward.

Key Takeaways:

Discover why thyroid imbalances and undiagnosed autoimmune issues can silently sabotage implantation.
Learn how the uterine microbiome and inflammation might be the missing piece in your fertility journey.
Find out which antioxidant-rich supplements and lifestyle shifts can boost egg and sperm quality.
Understand how immune or clotting factors can interfere with pregnancy — and what tests can uncover them.
Explore how emotional healing and nervous system regulation can prepare your body to receive new life.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Join me inside The Wholesome Fertility Collective. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewholesomefertilitycollective

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For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

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# TWF: 362
Speaker 2: [00:00:00] Episode number 360 2 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvi, and today I wanna talk about a topic that weighs heavily on so many hearts, repeated miscarriages and transfer failures. These are some of the most painful experiences on the fertility journey.
In many cases, these outcomes are not inevitable because with the right testing. Many miscarriages and transfer failures can actually be prevented. There are tests that can reveal hidden factors and things that standard fertility workups may overlook. And I've seen many times where my patients have gone through so many transfers and finally pushed to get more tests done, and that changed everything.
So if you've been through multiple losses, multiple failed transfers, or. If you are preparing for a transfer, you won't wanna miss this episode, so stay [00:01:00] tuned.
Speaker: So when it comes to repeated miscarriages or even transfer failures, I'm going to kind of take different parts of it because I can't really take a whole thick brush around it because if it is a natural pregnancy that is not with a RT or IVF. Where the embryo is tested, and then in that case you would rule out the quality and the genetics because you're testing them.
But if you have repeated miscarriages, that could be attributed to either genetic factors or other factors that can also impact uterine transfers. So first I'm gonna cover that there is definitely a big. [00:02:00] Aspect to natural pregnancy and miscarriages that is attributed to the egg quality and also the sperm quality.
So it could be the genetic makeup of either the sperm or the egg. So in this case, it's really important to understand what's going on when it comes to the woman and the man. And typically this can also happen as women and men. Age, and really the mitochondria and the egg cells and the mitochondria that impact sperm quality and also the genetics can really be impacted.
But also the mitochondria of the egg is incredibly important because an egg cell has hundreds of thousands more mitochondria, and in case you don't know what that means, the mitochondria is an organelle in the cell in each cell of the body, which produces, and it's considered the powerhouse. Of the cells.
So it's kind of like the energy factory of the cell. And as we know, in order for new life and new growth, there [00:03:00] needs to be a lot of really efficient energy, and this is why it's important for men and women to take about at least three to four months to allow whatever changes they're making in their lifestyle.
Diet and also eliminating as much as possible exposure to toxins, endocrine disruptors for both men and women because that can really impact also the genetic makeup of the sperm and the egg. So many things that people can do in order to support egg quality and sperm quality. The different factors are supplementation, so there are certain supplements.
That are high in antioxidants. That's important for men and women. Coq 10 has been shown to help both men and women, so egg and sperm health, and it also supports the mitochondrial health. And then asai E has been shown to be really great 'cause it's a very potent antioxidant, and Omega threes lowers inflammation can also be very supportive.
Acupuncture for both men [00:04:00] and women could be really, really supportive, helping both egg and sperm nervous system regulation. So that your body is not exerting too much energy, and that is one of the reasons why acupuncture can help so much is because it regulates the nervous system and it also allows the body to get into a more healing state, getting lots of good rest and also exercising, balanced, exercising.
So not too much because too much exercise has been shown to have an adverse effect on reproductive health for both men and women. And then too little exercise and not moving enough can also cause harm. So it's important to have enough movement where your body is producing more energy but not de pleading.
So it's kind of like getting into that sweet spot so that you're getting a good amount of energy, but not expending too much breath work is really. Important as well. So breathing exercises can really help the body produce more energy. So you're really supporting the body to create more energy and reserves.
Now, diet is [00:05:00] incredibly important, so making sure that you're having enough proteins, fats, less of antioxidant rich vegetables and greens, berries, antioxidant rich fruits. These are all really important. And also having a lot of fiber and getting that gut health in check. So this is the aspect where we're really looking at the embryo quality.
So going back to other things that can cause natural miscarriages. Let's talk about the thyroid. So the thyroid is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. And most of the time, hypothyroid or hyperthyroid tends to be a little bit more common in women. And so you wanna make sure that your thyroid is functioning optimally.
And one of the most common things that I see is that the first line of inquiry that people have is they go to their ob, and that is who they talk to first. And they have a lot of information. However, they're a little bit more generalized in women's health, and that [00:06:00] means that they're not as focused as you'd find at a reproductive endocrinologist, which is an endocrinologist and also an OB that specializes in fertility health.
And so they look at everything when it comes to fertility health. So when a woman goes to her ob. She could range over two on TSH, which is thyroid stimulating hormone, and typically if it's under four, in the general population, it's considered normal, so that won't be really raising too much of a red flag because it's considered a normal range.
However, an ideal amount of TSH would be two or under, and typically what they do is once they find out, especially if it's a doctor who's specialized in fertility medicine, like a reproductive endocrinologist, they will look at it. And of course, they also look at endocrinology, which is all about your hormones.
So they will look at the TSH and say, oh, it's above and it's [00:07:00] not ideal for fertility health. So let's look further. And then they'll typically do a full thyroid panel, which includes T four, T three, reverse T three, or antibodies. And that's really to understand why the thyroid might be. Under functioning.
And once they realize, is this an autoimmune condition like Hashimoto's, where your body's immune system is attacking your thyroid, and that can contribute to the thyroid being more inflamed and it can cause the thyroid to under function, or could it be that your thyroid is just not functioning as well?
Or is it that your cells are not responding to the thyroid hormones? So clearly there are many different ways to look at the thyroid, and this is why it's really important to get a full thyroid panel and also to have a pair of eyes that is a lot more familiar in this specific type of field. And this could be a very quick fix.
Many women can go on thyroid medication and easily get pregnant if that is the only issue they're they're [00:08:00] dealing with. Or they can also shift their diet if it is an autoimmune condition. Oftentimes what I do is I really address the gut. And then I suggest to remove gluten entirely because I see a lot of people do a lot better on a gluten-free diet, and some people even opt to do autoimmune paleo when they have any kind of autoimmune condition, and many people do really well on that kind of diet.
Three things that should be avoided when it comes to hushing. Motos is gluten, soy, and corn. Between addressing that and also supporting gut health and lowering inflammation. I've seen a lot of people do really well, but always talk to your doctor because you wanna make sure to address any underlying medical conditions, and they will be the ones that are testing and they'll know what the best course of action would be.
Other things that you might wanna look into is immune or cladding factors. Those things would be impacting both transfers or natural pregnancies. So if your body is clotting too much or not clotting enough, [00:09:00] these are clotting factors that can impact how the pregnancy plays out or if the pregnancy can sustain itself.
So conditions such as antiphospholipid. Syndrome, thrombophilias or autoimmune conditions, which is your body attacking itself. And this can also impact how your body responds, not just to itself, but also how it responds to new life coming in, because that is actually a foreign entity. So sperm is a foreign entity for a woman's body.
And also fertilized egg, which is an embryo, could also be seen as a foreign entity. And I've even had a patient. Where she had a high sensitivity and resistance to her husband's sperm, and it took years to figure that out with a bunch of testing, and we finally realized and figured it out. So now she's on a course of treatments that suppresses her immune system as she went into her transfer, and she's now in her third trimester, so she's doing great.
[00:10:00] Sometimes this immune condition or immune response or high inflammation in the uterus. Can be caused by something called endometritis, which is the inflammation of the endometrial lining, which is your uterus, and many times it be addressed by a simple dose of antibiotics by the doctor. And I've had another patient that for years has been asking for this to be tested.
Has not gotten it tested, and she got really frustrated because when she finally did get it tested, they found that she had fluid in her uterus and that she also had endometritis. She went ahead and got a course of antibiotics and recovered. And now tested it again and it was fine. And then finally did actually get pregnant with her last transfer.
So other tests that could be done at the doctor's is an ERA, which is an endometrial receptivity analysis. This is a great test to see if your lining is receptive [00:11:00] at the time of transfer. Other tests can also look to see if there's inflammation in the uterine lining. And something else that has not been addressed as much but is starting to now is the endometrial microbiome.
So studies show that the balance of the bacteria in the vagina and uterus. Directly impacts implantation and pregnancy success. And in the uterus there are a lot less of a variety of bacteria, so it doesn't have as many strains as the gut microbiome. So if they don't have a protective lactobacillus strain, this can actually make the uterine lining less hospitable to the embryo.
And a lack of this strain can also cause a growth in harmful bacteria, which again, creates more inflammation and more chances of possible future miscarriages, or can contribute to unexplained infertility or uterine transfer failures. So this is one of the things that a lot of times you'll [00:12:00] find in.
Spain, they always look into, and one of the things that I often suggest is just use a vaginal suppository because it doesn't hurt. It uses a strain that is very beneficial for the vagina and the uterine lining. And so the way I see it is why not? So, something I also wanna mention is if you get frequent uterine tract infections or frequent yeast infections, these are things you wanna look into because those are red flags for possible dysbiosis in the vagina and the uterus.
So in that case, you could actually get this tested. I personally love something called lysis. And it's an at-home testing kit, which looks at the uterine microbiome through period blood. So there's no pricking, there's no probing. All you do is really take your period blood, send over a sample, and then they test to see through that what your microbiome looks like.
To me, this is a game changer and it makes it [00:13:00] super easy at home. And if you're interested in finding out more, you can find the link in the description. And if you use the code wholesome fertility, you can get a discount, and I will link all of this in the comments, but I highly recommend it. It's one of the few things that I'm actually very excited about that is new and I think is really going to be one of the key factors that is often overlooked, but can be a complete game changer.
So far, I've listed a couple of different things that you can do, but for sure look into gut health because that really makes a huge difference. I personally love. Microbiome Labs, they have a supplement called MegaSpore Biotic. But for some people that might be too strong and they might wanna go with one strain, but it's a spore based probiotic, and I found it to be tremendous for so many of my patients.
But let's not forget emotional support. If you are going through these many losses or transfer failures, this could be extremely emotionally exhausting, and it's really [00:14:00] important to understand that this could be a very traumatic thing. And many couples don't realize that getting emotional support like therapy can really be a game changer, and it's something that they need often, and sometimes just taking a little break so that you can regroup yourself before trying another transfer.
And getting yourself and your mind ready for it could be extremely valuable. So make sure to always have compassion with yourself and allow yourself the time to process and rebuild. And if you're finding that your doctors or your team are not really supporting or responding to you about doing tests.
Look into getting another opinion. 'cause again, those are game changers. If you can find somebody who's really ready to uncover and look into everything, this can save you so much time and so much money. That to me, it's worth taking that little break and figuring it out before continuing and doing more rounds of transfers.
And I'm also gonna link my membership rooted where I have. Audios and which [00:15:00] includes suggestions for uterine lining and receptivity, and also have lots of tools on how to get yourself in a better state so that you can regulate your nervous system and support your wellbeing. So thank you so much for tuning in today.
I hope you found this information useful. I'm wishing you the best on your journey. So thank you so much and I will see you next time.
[00:16:00]

Michelle Oravitz 11/3/25 Michelle Oravitz 11/3/25

Ep 361 The 5-Day Fertile Window Explained (And Why Hollywood Gets It Wrong) (Copy) (Copy)

In this episode, Michelle Oravitz shares the only fasting method she recommends for those trying to conceive. Discover how aligning your meals with your body’s natural circadian rhythm can balance hormones, support fertility, and improve overall energy.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle Oravitz, shares the only fasting approach she recommends for those trying to conceive, and why most intermittent fasting methods can actually harm fertility. Drawing from both modern research and Ayurvedic principles, Michelle explains how to sync your eating habits with your body’s natural circadian rhythm to support balanced hormones, stable blood sugar, and optimal digestion.

She breaks down how to determine if fasting is right for you (hint: it depends on insulin resistance and PCOS type), the best time of day to eat your biggest meal, and how the ProLon fasting-mimicking diet can help restore metabolic balance without depleting your energy or fertility.

If you’ve ever wondered whether fasting could fit into your fertility journey, this episode offers a grounded, fertility-safe way to approach it.

Key Takeaways:

Not all fasting methods are fertility-friendly, skipping breakfast can increase stress hormones and harm reproductive balance.
Those with insulin resistance or insulin-resistant PCOS may benefit from specific, gentle fasting approaches.
Your largest meal should align with your body’s strongest digestion period (midday, when the sun is highest).
Finishing dinner 2–4 hours before bed supports better sleep, hormone repair, and digestive rest.
ProLon’s fasting-mimicking protocol can enhance insulin sensitivity and reduce stubborn weight safely.
Always test, not guess, consult your healthcare provider before starting any fasting or supplement plan.

Use this code and get a discount on PROLON: https://prolonlife.com/thewholesomelotus

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 360 1 of the Wholesome Fertility podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvi, and today I'm going to be covering the only way I personally recommend fasting, and this is in the case of people who have insulin resistance or stubborn weight, and they feel more sluggish and.
Michelle: This could be coupled with irregular cycles or PCOS, and this would be really the only way I would recommend fasting. But if you don't have those things, you still might wanna listen, because I do also talk about the timing of eating and how you can do so to improve your overall energy and help your sleep.
Michelle: So stay tuned.
[00:01:00]
Michelle: So I'm going to be
Michelle: explaining who would benefit the most from what I'm about to talk about. So stay tuned. So if you have been diagnosed with PCOS or suspect that you might have insulin resistance, or your doctors told you that you're slightly insulin resistant. Which could reflect on your reproductive health as irregular periods, feeling sluggish.
Michelle: Oh, metabolism really, really hard to lose stubborn weight, then you might benefit from a more fertility friendly way of fasting. But before I get started, I recommend that you always speak to your doctor to make sure that you're not self diagnosing because. I've seen this happen so many times where people self-diagnose or assume that they have something and then they self-treat and it ends up sending them further back on their [00:02:00] fertility journey.
Michelle: So I always recommend really to test and not guess. And speak to your doctors before doing anything. Even when it comes to supplements or certain diets, it's really, really important to have a team that is well qualified and can really help you. And I also wanna be really clear that this could benefit people who do have insulin resistance.
Michelle: And types of PCOS that do have insulin resistance. Keep in mind that not all PCOS is created equal. Everybody's a little different when it comes to their expression of the type of PCOS, so you wanna make sure it's more insulin resistance, PCOS, and many times this can show up, like I mentioned as stubborn weight, acne, or irregular cycles.
Michelle: However, sometimes people have irregular cycles because they're underweight and not nourished enough. So in that case, I would definitely not recommend doing this, but I'm also gonna mention how to eat optimally with the [00:03:00] time of day. So that aspect of it, I think will benefit everybody. So overall, I do not recommend intermittent fasting in the way that it is really.
Michelle: Advertised out there, which is to skip breakfast. And this is because when we're first waking up, our bodies are primed to eat food. And the fact that you might not feel like eating food does not necessarily mean that it's not really something that your body needs. Sometimes people are in a habit of not eating breakfast and their bodies get used to that.
Michelle: But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the best thing when it comes to fertility health. The body really needs that stability and the stability of blood sugar, and you wanna support your body with. A healthy amount of proteins, a healthy amount of complex carbs, and you also want to eat vegetables and a healthy amount of healthy fats.
Michelle: Ideally, you would have a mixture of all of those in every meal because you have your proteins, you have your healthy fats, and you also have [00:04:00] the vegetables, which contain a lot of fiber. It can also help your digestion, but then also having a little bit of complex carbs or starches, but not a huge amount.
Michelle: So that should be the smallest part on your plate. So what happens is if you're skipping meals or if you're skipping breakfast. That can actually spike your cortisol and cause more stress on the body. And these are things that we don't wanna do. You wanna actually nourish your body consistently and regularly because your body has an internal clock and rhythm that it gets used to certain habits that you're doing every day.
Michelle: So it's important to reregulate that if you're not used to eating breakfast. Having breakfast first thing in the morning according to Ayurvedic medicine. We look at the way the sun rises and how our own bodies respond to those rhythms. So our bodies respond to the natural rhythms of life and nature.
Michelle: And so whatever happens in nature's clock oftentimes reflects on our own body's [00:05:00] clock. And typically what happens is when the sun comes up, our bodies are primed to digest best. So it's important not to skip any meals, especially breakfast. So that you're having a good, healthy breakfast, and what I recommend is for your largest meal to be in the middle of the day when the sun is the strongest.
Michelle: And this is because our body's internal digestif fire or Agni responds to the heat of the sun. So you have the help of nature. To support our own ability to digest and think about cooking, cooking your food. You want the fire to be as high as possible so that you can support that cooking, and that typically will be when the sun is strongest around two to 4:00 PM So this is the time where the body is the most prime to digest food, and you wanna help that digestion by chewing really well.
Michelle: And avoiding too much water before or even during your meals. Maybe have it afterwards so that you're not diluting your digestive fluids and really being [00:06:00] mindful with your food. So typically what I will suggest if a person needs or can benefit from a little bit of fasting is to have their last meal of the day be smaller.
Michelle: But also have it really early. And then your fasting would be really at the end of the day, a couple of hours before gonna sleep, depending on how stubborn the weight is, or if a person has insulin resistance. In those cases, they may benefit from maybe four hours before they go to sleep, but typically two to three hours would be really a general guideline.
Michelle: And what this does is it allows the body rest from digesting. Because the digestive process could be very, very taxing and demand a lot of energy from the body. Typically, we are primed to have more energy during the day as we are slowly winding down from the day you wanna let the body rest. Typically, that will improve your sleep as well.
Michelle: Also, allow your body to work on whatever it needs to restore your body and [00:07:00] balance hormones and everything that it does while you're sleeping. And the repair process that happens when you're sleeping will be uninterrupted and won't be competing with your digestive system. So ideally, this is what you wanna do to really restore the body, and this is going to impact really all the different processes of the body.
Michelle: Need to support your reproductive health. So another thing I recommend, and I recommend doing this periodically, is if you do have insulin resistance, and you again, always talk to your doctor about this, but there are things like fasting mimicking diets, and I personally recommend ProLon. And what this is, is basically they have either three day or five day, one day, and what you do is you basically get these boxes and you will eat certain types of foods throughout the day.
Michelle: And it's very, very small amount so that your body is going into autophagy and it's able to break down and fast, but you're still at the same time eating. So you're able to really function in life and not [00:08:00] feel super depleted, and you're also getting nutrients while you're doing this. So this is actually something that is recommended for a lot of people who have insulin resistant PCOS.
Michelle: People have a lot of great benefits from this, and in clinical studies when this is done in cycles over months, it showed reduction in trunk fat, improvements in insulin related markers, and reductions in growth factor signaling linked. To metabolic aging. So the benefit is that you're not reducing foods all together, which would cause other problems.
Michelle: You're still maintaining some kind of calorie intake, but you're also inducing more insulin sensitivity. So combining all of these and maybe doing periodic. ProLon fasting with just having a couple of hours before you go to sleep of no food, and also combining certain foods and macronutrients in a certain way that is more harmonious for your body and harmonious in a way that will also.
Michelle: So sustain [00:09:00] sugar balance is really your best bet. So while this isn't a cure all, it could definitely be something that can benefit in the case of insulin resistance, and it could possibly get the body to a point where it's able to really manage its energy more optimally. To support equality and to support your cycles and overall reproductive health.
Michelle: So be sure to talk to your doctor about it. And if you want, you can find a link in the description for ProLon where you can get a discount and you can also go on there and look into what it is, how it works, and really the research behind it. So thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope this was beneficial for you in some way.
Michelle: If nothing else. Definitely take out of this that you are a circadian being. So it's really important to approach what you're doing with the sun and also the timing of your body. And this includes food, but it also includes daylight because we really are part of nature. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I will see you next time.
[00:10:00] [00:11:00]

Michelle Oravitz 10/27/25 Michelle Oravitz 10/27/25

Ep 360 BBT Burnout? A Simpler Way to Know If You Actually Ovulated

Tired of BBT burnout? Discover a stress-free way to understand your hormones and know exactly when you’ve ovulated.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Rose McKenzie, fertility awareness educator and clinician trainer at Mira, to explore a simpler, smarter way to track your cycle, without the stress of daily temperature checks.

We dive into how continuous hormone monitoring can reveal what’s really happening in your body each month, why a single lab test can miss crucial shifts in your hormones, and how lifestyle factors like sleep, stress, and nutrition affect ovulation. Rose breaks down the science behind Mira’s lab-grade hormone tracking technology and shares how it’s helping women and practitioners move beyond guesswork to truly understand their cycles.

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by charting, or you’re ready to move past “BBT burnout,” this conversation will help you see your hormones in a whole new way.

Key Takeaways:

Tired of charting every morning? Discover a stress-free way to confirm ovulation.
Learn why LH strips only tell part of the story, and what you’re really missing.
See how Mira’s lab-grade tech brings clarity to hormone tracking from home.
Find out how stress, sleep, and nutrition can delay or disrupt ovulation.
Learn why continuous data gives a clearer picture than one-time lab tests.
Understand how your insulin sensitivity shifts across your cycle (and how that affects cravings).
Get empowered to interpret your hormone data and take control of your fertility journey.

Learn more about Mira and follow their socials:

https://www.miracare.com/
https://www.instagram.com/mirafertility/
https://www.facebook.com/mirafertility/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS5Z-P55EpyB-eAnwZsvOdg
https://www.tiktok.com/@mirafertility

Study link that we spoke about:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10421863/

Get 20% off of any MIRA products by using this link: https://shop.miracare.com/discount/WHOLESOMEFERTILITY20?redirect=%2Fcollections%2Fhealthcare-experts-choice

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Join me inside The Wholesome Fertility Collective: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewholesomefertilitycollective

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

# TWF: 360 -Rose
[00:00:00]
Speaker: Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're digging into the why behind our hormones, how stress, sleep, food, and timing shift ovulation, and why a single lab snapshot can miss the full picture. This episode is sponsored by Mira, a company focused on at-home hormone monitoring, because a topic is cycle data that you can actually use.
My guest is fertility awareness educator and clinician trainer, Rose McKenzie. Today we're gonna unpack what LH Strips do and don't tell you how continuous data changes, care plans, and emerging research on insulin sensitivity across the cycle. Plus practical ways to pair numbers with body signals. If you're actively trying to conceive and want to know how to [00:01:00] really optimize your cycle, you won't wanna miss this episode.
Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, rose. Yes. Thank you for having me. So excited to have you on. I always like to start with a little introduction. I'd love if you can introduce yourself and then talk about how you got started in working with Mira. Yes,
Rose: well, thank you. I have to say I never thought I'd have my dream job, but here I am with my dream job.
So I'll tell you how I got here. My background is as a fertility awareness educator. So I'm trained in two methods, simple thermal and Marquette. So I was helping women to understand what their hormones were doing what it meant so they could make decisions about their fertility. At the same time I was actually working in an er, so completely two [00:02:00] different worlds.
And my passion, my husband works in er ah, yes. So we could share stories, but yeah, so I was really seeing how many things could be prevented if we did more prevention care, and we really helped patients understand what was happening to their bodies much, you know, earlier than when they ended up in an ear.
And so I wanted to do more preventative care and really help empowering women to understand what their hormones were doing. And so, I pivoted and I started working at a restorative reproductive health office, which with providers who truly were looking for root causes and fixing the problems that were then leading to what we typically hear women say of long, irregular cycles, painful periods, difficulty conceiving.
You know, weight gain, all of these kind of top of the iceberg problems that they're having that were not being addressed at the root. And so that's what we were doing in that practice. So, I love the work I was doing there, but the opportunity came up with Mira, where now I get to train providers similar to the ones I used to work with.
And the more providers I assist, the more patients are getting [00:03:00] that really good care to again, find those root causes.
Michelle: Yeah, it's incredibly empowering and I will say, like I have my own background, my own story of having like 12 years of irregular cycles and not really getting the answer through Western medicine.
Which my husband is a doctor at the er, which the ER is probably like the best. Like of Western medicine, because anything that's trauma related, they're amazing. That's where they really shine. But anything that's a little more preventative, I just feel like it's better to do alternative medicine or other more natural ways to really look at the root.
Cause and for years I went through it myself. Mm-hmm. And I had no idea what was going on. I didn't even know anything about tracking or anything. and then found a solution and, and really, I mean, to think for 12 years I went through this and thought that was gonna be my life sentence. And I think that.
In that aspect, I feel [00:04:00] very passionate about empowering people.
Rose: Yes.
Michelle: To really getting that awareness of their body and of course, well you did the two other types of awareness method, right? What were the two you were, were mentioning? So,
Rose: simple thermal is a mucus temperature based method. And then Marquette mm-hmm.
Is urinary hormones. Temperature is optional and you can track mucus as well. And so it was really the Marquette method with being able to track women's hormones in urine. That really led me to mirror, 'cause I had some patients that were in very difficult situations, but they needed to have a very.
Precise, understanding what their hormones were doing because you know, some of the patients I had were postpartum, but they weren't just postpartum. They had just had a micro preemie. So their babies, you know, 27 weeks gestation born and now they're postpartum, pumping, trying to navigate the nicu but also need to know if their fertility was returning.
So situations that are difficult like that, or patients that are avoiding a pregnancy [00:05:00] because maybe they have medications that they take that cause birth defects. And in those situations they don't want to use a hormonal birth control. They want to use a natural form of avoiding a pregnancy, which is what the methods of simple thermal and Marquette can offer.
So the majority of my patients initially were actually trying to avoid a pregnancy. And now of course in my work at Miro where I'm helping providers, I see all the different various situations, you know, you can say is it's wide ranged. We have people using the product for trying to conceive, which is a very natural you know, logical.
Way that our monitor is used, but then all the way to women using it as they transition off of chemotherapy and transition back to having their hormones come back. So very wide range of things that hormone tracking is important for.
Michelle: Absolutely. And typically as a provider, what I found were a lot of people coming to me with like maybe a hormonal panel that they took maybe three months ago, six months ago, or even that month, but we [00:06:00] still only have the snapshot in time.
Mm-hmm. And what I love about Mira is that you get to see this every single month and track it and also see what it is that's happening in the body. If you're making, if, if the changes that you're making, because people hear about supplements, they hear about all these different things, but then they're like, okay, is it doing anything?
Is it really making a difference? Sure. When you're able to actually track it from month to month to month, that's when you really feel empowered about what you're doing and. The simplicity of it, I can go on, but I'd love for you to really share what Mirror is, what the unique technology that they use.
Typically I have people who have been following me for a while know that I'm not, like, I haven't just easily sponsored anything. And for me to actually get to the place where I'm like sponsoring it has to be some, I always knew it had to be something that I a hundred percent stand behind. Sure. And so I, as a practitioner and as [00:07:00] somebody who's working with patients.
Really, really, really feel that what Mira can offer is incredibly valuable when it comes to fertility health. So yeah, I would love for you to share, 'cause I know they have a unique technology mm-hmm. In the way they work that's unique compared to other tracking methods mm-hmm. That are Yeah. Other
Rose: solutions.
Yeah. So, for those that are not familiar with Mira, it's an at-home hormone monitoring device. So you need a device and wands, then you're gonna start collecting first morning urine sample. We use first morning for two main reasons. Those that like to know why most patients are not eating and drinking throughout the night.
So you're just having a naturally concentrated sample and it's much easier to obtain something that's becomes part of your habit. So every morning you just, you have to go to the bathroom anyway. You just collect that you're in. Yeah. And then you're gonna be testing that. So, you dip a dipstick in that urine, you cap it, you put it in the machine.
Now while it's reading. I'll tell you about the technology. So the type [00:08:00] of technology that we use is immunofluorescent. So it's a lateral flow amino assay, which you don't need to memorize that. What you need to know is that means that as you dip that urine and the urine is wicking up the wand, it's actually picking up antibodies.
And then the detector is a fluorescent detector. 'cause now the, the hormone particles are labeled with fluorescent and now the device is actually reading that. So this is. Completely different than anything you can get anywhere else. So, lh test strips, pregnancy tests. Think about your other solutions that you might see.
Those are all using nano gold technology, which is a validated tool as well. But most of us can recognize what Nano gold is because you see that line darkens like a pregnancy test becomes positive, or an LH test strip. You see that line darkens. So as the line darkens, that means there's more and more hormone.
So in nano gold is either darkening or fading of a line. And then either it's a standalone device that has a camera in it that's reading that dark or lightness or [00:09:00] some solutions actually use your smartphone to again, kind of determine how light or dark that line is. And so Muir is the only one that has implored this higher technology that's in an at-home setting, which gives us laboratory grade results.
And so, you know, if you said, I've tried something in the past and it didn't work well for me, like let's say LH test strips, which I know you and I have talked about this before. LH test strips are tracking one hormone. And right. We want to find that one. What's supposed to happen is one dynamic change in lh, where it's, you're generally low the entire cycle, and you have this one dynamic spike.
That's what's supposed to happen. That spike is supposed to occur over one, two, maybe three days. So it depends on how tight your surge is. If you don't have that common pattern, LH s rates can be very frustrating 'cause you can see what looks like a positive, but then it's negative and then it's positive.
Or you can have values that look kind of positive all the time. [00:10:00] And so that's telling you something? Yes. That something's wrong. But when you see the number values on mirror, you can really identify, okay, yes, my LH is abnormally high most of the time, but I still get a change that's coordinated with the other hormones, triggering ovulation.
So that would be something like still rising estrogen. Then the LH surge, your progesterone changes. So that will is much more than a simple LH test strip.
Michelle: A hundred percent. So if people are listening to this and they're kind of new to the fertility journey or they're just not as familiar, the first thing that typically people will do is exactly what you said, rose.
They go to CVS or you know, their local pharmacy and will pick up LH six or ovulation predicting kits.
Rose: Mm-hmm.
Michelle: And what that does is it only looks at that one hormone and just for people who are maybe not familiar with this, is that. While it could be very valuable, it only shows us [00:11:00] really one part of how the body tries to ovulate.
What it shows basically is, is a hormone that's secreted through the pituitary. Mm-hmm. And it is, it goes into your bloodstream and, and then it's picked up by the LH stick during the time that it's supposed to signal your ovaries to ovulate, however. Sometimes it, it can work perfectly, do whatever it's gotta do, but that doesn't mean that your ovaries responded.
Mm-hmm. We don't know for sure that you actually ovulated. So it, it could be very misleading.
Rose: Yes.
Michelle: And then again, like you said, sometimes you will see things are a little off maybe have certain like hormonal imbalances that are causing it to constantly spike and and try over and over again. So you, you just don't.
See, it's like trying to look into a room, but the door is a little crack and you can see like maybe a quarter of the room. And then when you get all the different hormones all [00:12:00] together throughout like the major part of the cycle 'cause you don't have to use it Sure. The whole cycle to get a really nice picture.
But then you can get a real nice picture of a symphony and how everything works together, all the different hormones plus the progesterone in the luteal phase, which is the phase that's after following your ovulation. And if that means either it's strong even if it's a little bit and it's not strong, that's something to obviously pay attention to.
And to know that you actually ovulated. 'cause that's one of the ways that we can see for sure. So in that aspect, I mean that part of it, to be able to see that full picture, which typically people will get when they get the. Full hormone panel at the doctor's office once in a while, yes. But to get that month after month and after month, that's gonna be extremely valuable, but also not as stressful as BBT charting.
'cause all you have to do is, is pee and you don't necessarily have to look [00:13:00] at the, your app, you can actually just connect it and not look at it if, if you are the kind of person that gets stressed out by the data. 'cause a lot of people do. And then of course. Me or any practitioner you're working with, somebody who's working with you, has the ability, Amira put this so seamlessly to be able to, to see and track what's happening.
So if you're the kind of person, which I know a lot of people are, that gets stressed out by the whole like checking every single day. You don't necessarily have to do that. You just pee on the stick and go about your day and just let it kind of like track you.
Rose: Yeah, we actually have I know some clients that they collect the urine, they even may dip the dipstick, but they don't do anything else in the process.
Their partner can do that. They can open the app, they can sync it. You don't even have to be involved in the dipping process if you don't want, you just have to collect the urine. Collect the urine, yeah. And your partner can dip that test strip, you know, cap it, put it in the [00:14:00] machine. Again, if it's, if it's not something that is we'll say fits in your current life situation, you can still collect the data and not have to stress about what the, what It actually shows that again on the mirror dashboard, which is what clinicians see, they see the same data is what's available in the app.
So the app. Is there for you if you want it, but if you don't want it to see it, you don't have to either. You just have to make sure they sync together. That's what makes the results available to the clinician.
Michelle: Yeah. And you choose the clinician, of course. Mm-hmm. Anybody you're working with, you give the permission.
You're the one that actually mm-hmm. Allows them in. So whether it's a naturopath, a dietician, acupuncturist, doctor, maybe do some doctors do that as well?
Rose: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Michelle: Yeah, so they're basically able to go in and check your results and, and check out your, you know, your cycle path and, and how all the different hormones rise and [00:15:00] fall.
And so it really, it gives you a lot of. Great information.
Rose: Yeah. I would say, you know, a, a provider said it this way. She said, I'm gonna be in the bathroom right with you. And you really, I mean, you can, as a clinician, if the, again, the patient, the user has to consent to sharing the data. They can revoke access at any point.
The user is always in control of their information. But if you want your entire team to have access to your data, then you consent to each of them. You can have your ob, you can have your dietician, your acupuncturist. Mm-hmm. Your, there's even, we have psychiatry providers who have access to the data as well.
So you can have an entire team surrounding you that all can see your data if it's helpful within your treatment plan with them.
Michelle: Yeah, that's what I, that's one of the things that I absolutely love because when I first started and I had a lot of patients coming in, whether they're showing me their BBT and just, they're constantly just showing me their phones every time they come in, and now I don't have, they [00:16:00] don't have to do that, which is also.
Yeah, I know exactly what's going on. Now when they come
Rose: in instead, you can open up your dashboard on your computer, turn it their way and say, look, this is, you know, this is so much better than what it was last cycle. And you can do that analysis together, which I think, you know, it's so empowering for users to understand their data.
But when you can have that collaborative approach between a clinician and yourself you know, that that is really where we can start moving mountains.
Michelle: Oh, for sure. Now for people who don't necessarily have a practitioner or anybody else kind of helping them and they're just trying to figure it out themselves.
Mm-hmm. How does one get started?
Rose: Yeah, so Mira is a direct to consumer product, so you can just go on meira care.com, look at the different options, the devices, this. So no matter what situation you're in, if you're actively trying to conceive your perimenopausal, the device is the same. You just choose what hormones you want to track.
And hopefully we're gonna put it in your show notes, your discount code that you can share with [00:17:00] everybody for that 20% off. So 20% off?
Yeah.
Yep. You just put it in at checkout. And and then it gets shipped to you. And then if a clinician, or if you don't have a clinician yet Mira just actually started a provider directory of all the clinicians that do have understanding of Miata, so that if you're like, you know, I, I have Michelle, she's wonderful, but now I need to find an ob, GYN, you can now search on the directory for an OB GYN that under knows and understands mirror data.
Michelle: That's awesome. Amazing. So good. And so for people who don't really know how to read it. What are some of the resources you, you guys provide to make it where they really understand like what's happening? Because they could just look and it looks like a bunch of lines. Like what does this mean?
Rose: Yeah. Well, so where we came from, our foundation of why we created this technology really was for women not to be, basically left outta the conversation. We wanted them to see their data, know what their data is [00:18:00] saying, instead of the disconnect between you go and get your blood drawn, you wait a couple of days, your doctor reads it and tells you it's fine. So we wanna put the patient, the user right back in the middle of that for them to see and understand their data.
So we understand that many women don't understand what their hormones are supposed to be doing or what they generally do. But that's the, within the app, we give several things. So we give, low normal, high reading for the hormones. We show you what your data looks like compared to a group of users.
You can see, for example, progesterone is supposed to be a bell curve After ovulation, you can click the analyze button and see your data plotted out against other users as well. And of course, if. You don't understand the data. That's where a clinician is great because they can take you from having basic understanding of the data to then saying like, this is showing me that maybe you are not building a uterine lining as well as you could be 'cause your estrogen is low.
Or this tells me that there's a potential problem with follicular development and [00:19:00] building your lining 'cause of estrogen. And then they could help you to improve those things. So that's really where tracking is one thing, but then taking that information and making actionable changes is where again, really we make the biggest impact in women's lives.
Because, you know, let's say you find out that your hormones are too low. That can be very devastating, but that's not the end of the story. Hormones are dynamic and they change, and as you change your lifestyle, diet supplements you start doing treatments, you can actually watch those hormones improve and change over time.
Michelle: I can attest to that a hundred percent. And, and it, it feels it could be very alarming when somebody's seeing that things are really thrown off. It could feel like it's a life sentence, but it's not. I've seen them change. And it, you know, certain lifestyle changes, certain supplements can really make a difference.
I mean, it's amazing to actually watch. Now that being said, it's not gonna be an overnight thing or over one month. [00:20:00] It's one of those things that it does take, you know, we're bound, I always say we're bound by the cycles. We're limited by that, like every single cycle. So you have to wait a couple of cycles for things to really reflect.
But again, this is amazing to be able to actually monitor as a practitioner. So this is gonna make your practitioner's life much easier because to be able to actually see it and monitor it in real time makes a difference. Not only that, as a practitioner, you can, you have like certain tools on how you diagnose, but then having another layer element.
That you're tracking also makes a difference on how, like, for me at least, how I'm going to prescribe certain supplements or possibly herbs. Mm-hmm. Based on what I'm seeing. And then it confirms even more. It just gives you more data to really assess the person.
Rose: Yes. Yes. And I would say too, it, it helps you [00:21:00] to be motivated because when you see, you know, some of these things that we ask as a clinician, easier for us to say than do, right?
We say, get enough sleep. Mm-hmm. And take these supplements true. Easier for us to say them, for you to do them right. But when you see that these. Very specific actions you're taking are changing how your hormones are coordinated, how within normal range they are. It really is motivating to see that like your hard work is paying off and you deserve to see that.
So we have many. Examples, I know Michelle has them as well, of like that transformation of your data improving and changing. It's not just, like you said earlier, it's not a you know, your sentence like you're just, these are the hormones you're given. You have to deal with them. That's not true. Your hormones yes, some of them are genetic.
We can't ignore some of that. But many things are affected by your diet, your lifestyle, [00:22:00] the way you're nourishing your body. And we can start, I've heard providers describe it as like pulling levers. When you start pulling some levers, you all, you see that downward downstream effect of what it does to your hormones.
Just like if you start manipulating, if your thyroid is off, that affects your hormones. If your mm-hmm your adrenals are off, all of those things they're interconnected. And as we start improving all of those things, your hormones are going to respond and, and be more optional.
Michelle: And I will say also probably like many doctors are obese, they can probably see certain patterns occur with certain conditions like thyroid disorders or you know, other types of hormonal imbalances and other practitioners can um, recognize that as well.
So that aspect of it is really impactful as far as the diagnosis aspect.
Rose: Yeah. And I think, you know. To summarize here, don't be discouraged by maybe poor or suboptimal values. You know, you can think of it [00:23:00] the same way as maybe you get a, a blood test back and they say it's out of range, like a cholesterol or I dunno, a blood pressure reading that's high.
Think of that as like, a sign to you that there is work to be done, but it's not just like you're stuck with that the rest of your life. You can improve these things. It's not, you know, a. Oh no, I, you know, will have difficulty conceiving the rest of my life. That's not true. You may have some things that you have to change to overcome that current situation.
Um mm-hmm. But this is not like hopeless situations when you have abnormal hormone patterns. To me, actually, I see it as a great opportunity that maybe previously you didn't know this was part of the, you know, problem. So think of this is like a puzzle that you're putting together, and I know you and I have talked about this before.
You're taking something that before was kind of abstract. Like we knew we had hormones, we knew that they do things, they're important to us, but we never really got to see them. Now you're gonna actually be able to see your hormones, and it is like a symphony. There needs to be harmonious [00:24:00] interactions between the hormones and when there's not, again, I view that as an opportunity, an opportunity to improve them.
And what a great opportunity that you have to be able to, actually take part in improving something for yourself. Like again, putting the ownership back on the person. Like, this is you, your hormones are you, and if they're not ideal, that's okay. We can work on that and improve them.
Michelle: I love that. That's such an empowering message and the way we see it a lot of times Chinese medicine like symptoms.
We of course treat the root cause, but all of those things are actual hints from the bodies. Mm-hmm. I mean, your body's incredible way to communicate with you. Yes. And it gives you alarms and, and those alarms are actually like blessings in disguise because. They are in fact an opportunity for you and a message for you to shift a couple of things.
It's mm-hmm. Really your body's trying to give you those messages. Hey, a couple of tweaks need to be done. [00:25:00] But the body's amazing in the way that it really responds to those tweaks. Mm-hmm. And those little sh shifts and changes. And it does make a difference. Like, your body wants to find balance. It does.
Yes. It naturally is designed to do that.
Rose: Yeah, no, all you have to do, I tell people it's not as complex as you think. Oftentimes we just need to support the processes that are already in place. And you know, there's many things that we don't know are disruptive, but as soon as we learn that they're disruptive, and some people are very sensitive to certain types of disruptors and other people, and so sometimes I think people think, you know, it's unfair.
That's such a good point. This person, you know, it doesn't affect them when they have. Like really big work deadlines that doesn't mess up their hormones and delay their cycle. But why does it do it for me? Well, everyone has different thresholds for different things, and that's part of your beauty as an, you know, a human being with your own complex interactions with things.
And so. Instead of seeing them as a curse again, see them as an opportunity. You [00:26:00] start listening to your body, you listen to its cues, and you start working within what your body needs. And again, the body's amazing that it, it wants to be, well, it wants to have, yeah. Health, it's always
Michelle: seeking that. Yeah.
Rose: Always seeking that. And so sometimes we're our, our own worst enemy 'cause we are in the way. And so sometimes a hundred percent we have to break some of our sometimes bad habits to really support our body in a different way. And, so I'm very encouraged by actually this we'll say change in the tide that we're seeing.
Patients want to know what their heart rate variability is and their sleeping patterns. Yeah. And they wanna understand their hormones. These are all metrics that you can monitor and, and assess but you also can't ignore what your body is telling you as well. Those are two different things that, again, pull together and make that puzzle.
Michelle: And you bring up such a good point. You were talking about how certain people are more sensitive to like the, the all-nighters or the extra projects [00:27:00] that they have to do and the stress levels. Yes. And what's really cool though is by monitoring your hormones, you can actually see what travel does to you.
Mm-hmm. Or if you're more sensitive to certain foods or you know, what really makes it worse, you can actually track that. Which I find so empowering. Yes. And then I just to kind of like put a little silver lining on that. Those people that do tend to get really sensitive to the stressors are the same people that heal a lot faster when they come into my office.
'cause they're just a little more sensitive to their environment. Yeah. So. There's a benefit to that. There is, there's a benefit. It's just you need to know how to work yourself. Mm-hmm. So to your advantage.
Rose: Yes, exactly. And I tell people a way to like think about that quickly is if you are someone who has had cycles that, you know, people often say my period was late around Christmas or when I was in school, when I had final exams.
Your [00:28:00] period wasn't late actually. Your ovulation was late. You likely had delayed or suppressed. That's such chicken ovulation, right? So, and that was, you know, some people don't think about this, but your body only has one mechanism to protect you against pregnancy. That's to not ovulate. And so that's, its only kind of lever to pull when your body is like, this is not a good time to get pregnant.
And that lever, again, can get pulled by some people pretty easily where other people, you know, have to be an actual true drought or war something. Mm-hmm. That would disrupt someone's hormones. But other people, it can be you know, a, a small change. So I'll give an example. I had a patient that she was exercising frequently.
She then changed her job, was able to exercise even more. So now she's exercising like six days a week. That was fine. Her hormones were fine. Then she decided to intermittent fast, which we won't go into that currently, but we'll just say she was so now she's intermittent [00:29:00] fasting, exercising a lot.
She was still fine. Her hormones were she was still having cycles. And then one, we'll say a straw that broke the camel's back was she started to she cut out cheese in her diet. And so for her, that was the last thing that the body couldn't handle, is that lack of fat now to make her hormones.
And so each of those things wasn't. Enough to tip the scale and make her not ovulate, but once it was all three, so she was exercising a lot. She was not eating frequently, so having intermittent fasting and then she cut out fat in her diet and then she stopped ovulating, she stopped having periods.
She's going two months without periods down. And so it's sometimes you have to think about work backwards in. Something can be very abrupt. That happened like all of a sudden stress. But other things can actually be, have been building, I like to say building like a snowball. So things that take a [00:30:00] while.
It's true to build up into a snowball, sometimes take a while to unbuild the snowman too. Yeah, something can be very abrupt and again, you can be very responsive to a good change. Good and bad change, and some things take time to worsen, so they take time to improve as well.
Michelle: That I, I think that that's so important because your body's incredibly forgiving.
And I think that in some ways that forgiving can be very tricky. It's confusing because you think, oh, I can exercise six days and nothing, no problem.
Rose: Mm-hmm.
Michelle: I can intermittent fast, no problem. Like nothing. It's not affecting me. Like I'm fine. Yeah. So I think that it could, it could be a little, um. kind of a hidden, you know, issue that you don't even realize
Rose: Yes.
Michelle: Could be eventually a problem, just because your body is so forgiving until that one last thing and it's like a, it seems like a small thing, but on top of those other things, it can really make such a different shift. [00:31:00]
Rose: Yeah, and you can blame the wrong thing.
You're like, oh, it's because this, when really it was maybe three or four things layered on top of it. So, yeah. I like how you said the body is very forgiving generally is very forgiving. Although I have a interesting story where a woman she donated her kidney to her sister and when she did, it just stopped.
Her periods altogether. Just done.
Michelle: Oh, wow. That's so interesting. You know, you know how we look at the kidneys, right? In Chinese medicine?
Rose: Yeah.
Michelle: It's, uh, the really where the reproductive health begins and end begins. Begins.
Rose: Mm-hmm.
Michelle: Is it the kid? Kidneys?
Rose: Yeah. And so for her, you know, I won't tell the whole story, but she was 46 and I like to tell women your hormones are a lot less forgiving when it's kind of.
Your organ, your ovaries are already starting to fail. And so they're a lot less robust and resilient towards something that happens. And so this woman, who's 46, who then donates her kidney it completely shut down everything for I think three months. She had very low hormones, [00:32:00] no periods, no ovulation, and she was able to recover.
But that event was enough to completely shut down all reproductive hormones.
Michelle: Wow. It's, that's a so crazy interesting story. 'cause you don't think about that. You're like, oh, I have two kidneys. I could just give one. Yeah. I mean, listen, you know, to save somebody's life, I think
Rose: it's worth it. It is. Yes.
Yes. But I think that's helpful for women to know that like, you know, surgery can be disruptive, although it can be good. Mm-hmm. And so we have to think about how are we gonna support the body going into surgery? How are we gonna support the body coming outta surgery? This can be for women who, you know, they're having endometriosis surgery to help them conceive.
We have to think about the before and the after. Knowing that the body is in some ways gonna be put under more stress during that surgery, right? Or right after. So there's definitely things that we can do to help support ourselves in these known stressful events [00:33:00] like something like a surgery or, I tell people if you know that Christmas time is very stressful for you every year you can prepare for that.
I mean, some things you can't, you know, you can't say no to everything or you don't wanna say no, it's, you know, but you can set things up to better support yourself. You know, I, I say that for any known stress that's coming up, my couples that are getting ready to get married, I'm like, A wedding is wonderful and beautiful.
It's a good stress, but it is a stress. So you have to be prepared for that. Oh, true.
Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And that's so true. And so, um, yes, so if anybody is interested, I have 20% off, which Mira provided me a link so generously and it's, it actually is a nice, actually chunk of change mm-hmm.
For the kit. So it definitely can save a lot, but I highly, highly recommend tracking your cycle with Mira if you really wanna get a more comprehensive look. [00:34:00] And also if you're working with practitioners, I mean, to me as a practitioner, knowing that I see so many different people and like to really, really get that insight, it's invaluable.
So if you guys wanna check it out, you can find it in the episode notes and I have the link in there. And any parting words, rose or any other, other tips or things that Yeah. Golden nuggets. Yeah, golden nuggets. I will say that this love those golden nuggets.
Rose: Yeah. You know, this is just the beginning of the journey.
We know that. More emphasis needs to be put on research in women's health. But I will tell you from my experience, seeing what research is coming, it's so exciting to be a part of this timeframe. We're seeing, you know, looking at women's their glucose data within a cycle. We're looking at studies on how to improve PMS symptoms.
We're seeing how to better manage PCOS or prepare for maybe symptoms you get when [00:35:00] your period happens. We're seeing research around A DHD and how women metabolize medications. And so like all of this is just currently thankfully getting a lot of attention because we know at the core you are your hormones.
Your hormones are you, they are unique to you and they change everything about you. And so it's important for us to acknowledge that yes, we have fluctuating hormones and they matter. And what are we gonna do about those hormones? Well, the first thing is to better understand them. So body literacy.
Yes, bring it back to yourself.
Michelle: You did have an interesting study, actually. Can you talk about that really quick? Yeah. The, about the insulin resistance? Yeah,
Rose: yeah, I can share about that. So the University of Toronto did a study that had 49 participants using Mira a Fitbit and A CGM all at the same time.
So they're tracking consistent glucose measurements and their hormones at the same time. And prior to that study, they really were. The [00:36:00] research was conflicted. Some said there's association between part of the cycle and their glucose levels, and others said there wasn't. And the researchers really said the disadvantage is most of these studies were doing infrequent blood glucose levels.
And they also did not have women tracking their cycles in a strategic way. So they were asking patients, well, how long your cycles? They'd say 30 days. Well, when was your last one? And they'd say when their last period was. So once they had a CGM, so we can really see their glucose data and mirrors, we could really tell if they're ovulating.
When they're ovulating, what phase of the cycle. The conclusion was a very strong correlation between glucose levels and what phase of the cycle they're in. So kind of the conclusion is what we kind of already knew, but now we can say with certainty that women's hormones change how we. Bond to insulin.
So when we have high estrogen, so as we're approaching ovulation, our insulin sensitivity is heightened or improved. It's better we can handle [00:37:00] more let's say handle our glucose better. Not to say eat a bunch of cake, but what I mean is generally women need a little bit less calories and they can keep their blood sugar within target range more often.
And then as soon as we flip to after ovulation, now we have high progesterone levels. High progesterone decreases our insulin sensitivity, so the body is less able to manage our glucose levels as well. And you might be thinking, well, why does the body do that? Well, progesterone tends to be called the pregnancy hormone or the growth hormone because it's allowing your body to, if you were pregnant, now grow a baby.
Your baby needs glucose to grow. And so we put a pregnant woman goes in a slightly insulin resistant state intentionally so that she can grow her baby. And so in that two week wait, after you ovulate, before you know if you're pregnant or not, the body is preparing for if you are now pregnant. And so you have that change in your insulin sensitivity.
So you need more calories. Get cravings. Yeah, you have cravings. You [00:38:00] can't go very far in between eating. And it's actually, that's good. Like you should listen to that. Actually, women should eat more calories in their luteal phase. They should not intermittent fast, they should don't skip breakfast. All of those things to really support what the body is saying it needs.
And this is probably the time to be more careful with things that do. Send your glucose through the roof. So this is not the time to eat sugar on an empty stomach. You really have to prioritize that protein and complex carbohydrates instead of simple carbs or liquid sugar. And yes, yeah, for sure, because it's really, you know, you're gonna send your body right into a, you're gonna go up and then you're gonna come crashing down, and then you're hungry again, and you're like, but I just ate.
Why am I hungry again? You're really, mm-hmm. You need to manage your glucose well during that luteal phase. So it's fascinating again for this we see these actionable changes that women can do when they understand what, what phase of the cycle their body is in.
Michelle: It's so fascinating and this is why I actually recommend [00:39:00] journaling, how you're feeling as well on top of measuring your hormones.
'cause then you can start to understand, it's almost like biofeedback. You're getting a feedback and then you're also paying attention to your own internal senses. Yes. Which is your own internal intelligence communicating with you. So I love that. I think that that's it's just so empowering. I really, I really feel like that is.
One of the best ways that people can get empowered on their cycles and their fertility overall.
Rose: Yeah. I tell people if you can get your hands on A CGM, you will learn more about yourself and if you pair CGM and mirror it together, it is the best because if you can only get a CGM for the two week timeframe, then I tell people, please try to wear it a week before you ovulate, a week after you ovulate, because your body responds differently in those two phases.
Or some people will only do the luteal phase. I'm like, well, you will respond the worst in your luteal phase. So if you wanna know, you know, if you spike your blood sugar with a sweet potato [00:40:00] versus rice, you know everyone's different. One thing will set one person off compared to the other. So you can learn that about yourself by doing a CGM and mirror.
Michelle: Something else. I mean, I, I wonder if they can um, look at HRV as well, you know, heart rate variability. Yeah. You know, HeartMath heart brain coherence because in Chinese medicine, the heart really has, plays an important role on Yes. getting your period and opening the uterus, really that connection.
So I'd be curious. I'd be curious. That would be an interesting study. I don't know if you know, yeah, there's, there's, that would be something, some,
Rose: there's some known information around that, but I would say more effort needs to be put into that. We know how women like handle stress changes from one cycle to the next.
So I've, I've heard yeah. You know, it it be said. So Alicia Vidi runs a program called In the Flow, and she's the one that created the cycle sinking method. And, and she talks about like, you know, if you're gonna ask for a bonus or ask for a raise or try to get a job or speak in front of a bunch of people, you really want that leading up to or during ovulation.[00:41:00]
Michelle: True. And because
Rose: that's, that's
Michelle: the summer, the bloom. Yes. Yes,
Rose: exactly. And so, you know, there's, we have things written into our bodies that again, we, we really need to get in tune with. So.
Michelle: Not to keep going on with this. Yeah, sure. But it makes me think about other things. I remember seeing a documentary about and they had like pictures of women's faces throughout their cycle and they become more attractive.
Like the features become Yes. More attractive around ovulation. Yeah. And they had these like snapshots and you can see almost like they're, they're the sides of their mouth go up. Like they start looking like they're smiling, like mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. Yeah.
Rose: Related to estrogen. Estrogen brings more blood flow, and so women's faces will actually change color when you're getting close to ovulation.
Wow. Which is fascinating. You know, again, so fascinating. These things that we've known at least. Research has known but it has not really been brought that forefront for us. [00:42:00]
Michelle: For sure. Well, this was such a fascinating conversation. I knew we were gonna have a good conversation. Yes. We've spoken before, rose and I, I think that we uh, definitely can nerd out about this.
So, so thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a, such a great conversation.
Rose: Thank you. Happy to be here. And again, don't guess just test, don't guess what your hormones are doing. Yeah. Just figure it out and, and find a clinician who truly listens to you and understands your hormones as well.
Michelle: Yes. Great advice. Thank you so much, rose.
Rose: Yes, thank you.
[00:43:00] [00:44:00]

Michelle Oravitz 10/20/25 Michelle Oravitz 10/20/25

Ep 359 The 5-Day Fertile Window Explained (And Why Hollywood Gets It Wrong)

Many people believe pregnancy can only happen on the exact day of ovulation, but that’s not the full story. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle Oravitz reveals the truth about the 5-day fertile window, why Hollywood often gets it wrong, and how understanding your cycle can transform your fertility journey.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, host Michelle Oravitz breaks down one of the most common fertility myths, the belief that pregnancy can only occur on the exact day of ovulation. Popular culture and even many fertility apps often portray conception as a single-day event, but science tells a different story. The truth is, sperm can survive in the reproductive tract for up to five days, creating a much wider fertile window than most people realize.

Michelle explains what the 5-day fertile window really means, why the “Day 14 ovulation” rule is misleading, and how women can better understand their unique cycles. She also shares practical guidance on tracking ovulation accurately using basal body temperature (BBT) charting, cervical mucus observation, LH strips, and hormone-monitoring devices.

Key Takeaways:

How cervical mucus supports sperm survival and why hydration is essential.
The impact of irregular cycles caused by thyroid health, PCOS, stress, or travel.
Why fertility apps often fail to predict ovulation accurately.
The best timing and frequency of intercourse to increase the chances of conception.
How intercourse during the luteal phase may help prime the immune system to receive an em

MIRA at home hormone testing: https://mira-fertility.pxf.io/Gm4AXV Use coupon code: WHOLESOMEFERTILITY FOR 15% OFF!

Tempdrop Fertility Monitor – discounted link: http://www.tempdrop.com/discount/AFWHOLESOMELOTUS

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: Let's start with the basics. Ovulation is an event in a woman's menstrual cycle when the egg is released from the follicle in the ovaries, and [00:03:00] that egg usually only lives for 12 to 24 hours. Sperm, however, it can survive in the reproductive tract for up to five days. Now, this is only given if it is within the fertile window because sperm cannot survive if it's outside of the fertile window because the pH is actually very unfriendly to the sperm.
Michelle: So given that there is ample cervical mucus that protects the sperm and the sperm can survive five days, and this is why usually we refer to the fertile window as a five day window. Those five days are actually five days leading up to ovulation, and because the sperm can wait and survive those five days, this is still considered the fertile window because they can survive and be waiting for the moment of ovulation.
Michelle: That's why having intercourse. On the days leading up can actually amplify your chances of conceiving. But most people who don't really know this believe that you can only conceive during [00:04:00] ovulation. And we see this time and time again on movies. They always show a woman looking at the time, checking her temperature and saying, okay, this is it.
Michelle: As if that window is like a half hour window, but that's really not the case. So based on this, people who are just trying to conceive for the first time and are having issues. Trying to conceive might not realize this until they go down the rabbit hole and really learn what is really happening in their body.
Michelle: So no, you don't just get pregnant on that one day of ovulation. You have a fertile window, which means that if you have sex within that window, there is that potential to conceive. Another myth that often occurs, and I see this a lot. And this is really based on the algorithm that people see on apps is that ovulation is always on day 14.
Michelle: So given that a person might have what's called a textbook cycle, which is a perfect 28 days consistently, they might assume or think that they're probably [00:05:00] ovulating right in the middle. But that's not the case, and it's actually a very, very common misconception. The reality is, is that. Every woman is different, and just because she has a 28 day cycle does not mean that she's ovulating right in the center.
Michelle: And this is why it's important to check, which I'll be going over soon, to understand really where in the cycle is a person ovulating. Because once you know and confirm the exact date of ovulation and check this for a couple of months so that you can see if there's inconsistencies or shifts within months, or do you start to find a pattern, and with that pattern, you'll start to understand more or less what your fertile window is.
Michelle: And so this leads into another myth that apps can predict ovulation. And this isn't true because what the apps do is base their data on algorithms. So they either see an algorithm of a huge general prediction, or they can assess an algorithm based on. Your [00:06:00] input of when you are having your period, but that being the case, unless you're putting in the exact time of ovulation that you actually confirmed, it doesn't really know what to base the algorithm on.
Michelle: So many times it will assume. That ovulation occurs on maybe day 14, but that's not necessarily true unless you actually test it. So there are a couple of tools that you can actually do at home to track when you're actually ovulating, and this can take up to two months to really know your fertile window because you won't know your fertile window until you know the day of ovulation.
Michelle: So if you do BBT, which is basal body temperature, and you check your temperature every single day, early in the morning before you get out of bed, and ideally you wanna sleep for three hours before checking. So three solid hours of sleep, meaning if you didn't go to the bathroom and then went back to bed and fell back asleep and only suffer an hour and then checked.
Michelle: Now, if that is the case once in a [00:07:00] while, that's okay. Don't let that. Stop you from checking. However, just keep in mind that the most consistent data you're gonna get is if you sleep for three solid hours. At night before you wake up and you don't get out of bed before checking your temperature. Another really good, impactful habit and practice is to use the digital thermometer and put it in your mouth a few minutes before actually turning it on.
Michelle: Some say even wait 10 minutes. But even if you have five minutes, it's still gonna be better than just turning it on right away. And what this does is it gives you a little more of an accurate reading, and then what you can do is some apps actually have calendars that you can input this information. And what it'll do is give you like a little bit more of a chart.
Michelle: And you can also print out a bunch of charts online and just write it in. So what over time happens is that in the follicular phase, which is the first part of the cycle before ovulation, day one would be the time that you're bleeding your first day of bleed for your [00:08:00] period. So from day one, up until ovulation, it's considered the follicular phase.
Michelle: And this is when the follicle starts to grow and get ready. And then estrogen and FSH rise. And then LH starts to surge right before ovulation. To trigger ovulation. And so typically you'll find with BBT charting is that the follicular phase is what we call in Chinese medicine is more of the yin phase of the cycle.
Michelle: So the yin is more of a cooling aspect of the body, and what you'll find is that the temperature of the BBT in a normal cycle will show lower than the luteal phase, which is after ovulation. So typically what you're looking for is about 97 degrees in the follicular phase, and then. You'll see that it drops temporarily right as you're ovulating, and then it rises and it stays around 90 eights in the luteal phase.
Michelle: So typically you don't want it to go lower. And if you start to see that in the follicular [00:09:00] phase, you're going down to like about 90 sixes and the luteal phase. Maybe it's not reaching, maybe it is going up, but like about 90 sevens a little bit, 98. You might wanna look into your thyroid because that is a very common reason for why people's temperature is a little too low, and that can really shift a lot of things when trying to conceive.
Michelle: So if that's the case, I would definitely speak to your doctor or an endocrinologist to see if your thyroid is working optimally. But regardless, it will tell you when you're ovulating based on that temperature rise. And so during that time, it's good to have maybe one or two readings for two different months.
Michelle: To see if you have a pattern repeating. Some people naturally have a little bit of an irregular cycle, and that could be normal for some people, and they might alternate from one month to the next being a little different. I've seen some people have maybe like 27 days and then 29 days, and it kind of alternates.
Michelle: As long as the alternation is not [00:10:00] too drastic, it could be very normal for you. So this is why it's important to really collect the data consistently and really go from month to month If you do see a pattern for yourself. Once that happens, then you can start to assess. If I know that I'm ovulating, say 16 of every single cycle, what does that mean?
Michelle: It means that five days before that should be your fertile window. You might also wanna start checking for cervical mucus around the fertile window. So you'll find that you'll start to have an increase in cervical mucus around that time. So when you wipe, you just wanna pay attention to it. And oftentimes when I work with people that have never really thought about doing this and have never learned how to really understand their body literacy when it comes to their cycle, may not notice the.
Michelle: Cervical mucus at first, but then eventually once I mention it, they do start to notice shifts and changes. And a huge, huge thing to mention if you do have very low cervical mucus is make sure that you are hydrated because cervical mucus. [00:11:00] It consists of mostly water, and that can really make such a huge difference.
Michelle: I had one patient who worked in healthcare. She barely drank any water, and I told her, this is a must. You really gotta start drinking more water. And once she started hydrating for a month or two, she saw an increase in cervical mucus. So something as simple as that can make such a drastic change. So you could buy an LH stick or an OPK.
Michelle: Now, I would say before even doing that or really relying on that. Make sure you are in fact ovulating. So A BBT chart can show you that you're ovulating and an LH six or OPK will only show that your brain is trying to make the ovaries ovulate, but it does not confirm that ovulation happened. Another thing that you can do is something like Mira, which is gonna look at a number of different hormones in your cycle.
Michelle: And I would definitely suggest looking into that, and that is really one of my favorite kits to suggest for my patients. And many times you're a [00:12:00] practitioner, they have a practitioner account. Who can actually access all your data. So it's really super helpful. It makes it a lot easier 'cause you're just testing in the morning with urine and it's super simple and easy to do and I'll have information in my episode notes if, if you guys wanna discount for that.
Michelle: There are other things that you can use. Things like temp drop, which basically checks your skin temperature or even aura rings do the same. And they can also see based on your records and your tracking, what your fertile window is. Now, just like with BBT, it takes about a month or so for some of those tracking devices to really understand your cycle, the ones that link to apps.
Michelle: So keep that in mind that it's not something that happens right away. It does take a little time. But once you do understand that you're gonna have a lot clearer of a picture on when your fertile window is. Now, in some cases, people have very irregular cycles and they don't really have a pattern. And this can be in cases with people with thyroid conditions, [00:13:00] PCOS, or even stress.
Michelle: And sometimes travel can also throw off a cycle because. When you're jet lagged and your circadian rhythm is off, it can impact your menstrual cycle as well. So those are things to keep in mind. Now that being said, I used to have extremely irregular periods, and it would be maybe two, three month cycles, which means I didn't get my period for three months in a row, and I had this going on for 12 years, and I resolved it with acupuncture, lowering stress.
Michelle: And diet so it can be done. And most of the time I find that with irregular cycles, acupuncture or natural means are actually a better way than just going on the birth control pill where you're not really impacting your cycle and getting to the root of things. So when should you be having intercourse and how often?
Michelle: So research shows that having intercourse every other day from five days before you ovulate is the best time. So I would definitely say do that, but then also. So I would suggest the day [00:14:00] before, the day of and the day after ovulation, and I would also continue it into the luteal phase because research shows that women who have more intercourse, and especially in the luteal phase, it can lower their immune system and prep it.
Michelle: So that it's able to receive a foreign body like sperm or a fertilized egg, which oftentimes a woman's immune system see sperm as a foreign object to protect itself from. So you wanna prime the woman's body to recognize that this is normal and it's okay. So it adapts to be able to receive that new life.
Michelle: Now all this being said, I know that sometimes tracking can be very stress. And I would definitely say if you are the type of person that gets really stressed out with data, then maybe for a little while you might wanna avoid over checking. Sometimes I have people doing the Mira app and they just check around the time that they're ovulating, like leading up.
Michelle: And then afterwards, and you might just wanna do this for a few months and see what it says. But if [00:15:00] it's causing you more distress, then I would say you might wanna take a pause and really take care of your mindset, because all of this information and data collecting could be very overwhelming for so many couples.
Michelle: So ultimately, you want to meet yourself where you're at and what you can realistically do without increasing stress. So in this episode, I really wanted to bring more clarity and information. Around the fertile window. And if you wanna dive deeper into understanding your menstrual cycle, I've created a free ebook called The Best Kept Secrets to Harming Your Moon Cycle, and you can find a link in the episode notes.
Michelle: So thank you so much for joining me today, and I'm wishing you flow and ease on your fertility journey. [00:16:00] [00:17:00]

Michelle Oravitz 10/14/25 Michelle Oravitz 10/14/25

Ep 358 Bed Rest or Movement After Transfer? Surprising IVF Insights

Should you really stay in bed after embryo transfer? For years, many clinics advised 24–48 hours of bed rest, but research shows that gentle movement may actually improve outcomes. In this episode, Michelle Oravitz, L.Ac., shares surprising IVF insights, holistic practices, and Traditional Chinese Medicine wisdom to help you prepare your body and mind for implantation. From acupuncture and nourishing foods to stress relief and even laughter therapy, discover empowering ways to support your fertility journey.

Should you really stay in bed after an embryo transfer? For years, many fertility clinics recommended 24–48 hours of strict bed rest, but research now reveals surprising insights: movement may actually support better outcomes.

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore what the latest studies say about bed rest versus gentle movement after transfer. I also share holistic, evidence-based practices from both Western research and Traditional Chinese Medicine that can help create the most supportive environment for implantation.

You’ll learn about the role of acupuncture before and after transfer, nourishing foods and supplements that enhance blood flow and uterine receptivity, and mind-body practices, from meditation to laughter therapy, that ease stress and boost outcomes.

Whether you’re preparing for an IVF cycle or supporting someone on this journey, this episode is packed with practical, compassionate guidance to empower you with knowledge and ease during this important stage.

Key Takeaways:

Extended bed rest after embryo transfer may not improve success rates and could reduce them.
Gentle movement supports circulation and aligns with TCM principles for reducing stagnation.
Acupuncture before and after transfer can significantly enhance implantation success.
Warm, nourishing foods like bone broth and circulation-supporting foods like beets are beneficial.
Supplements such as CoQ10, vitamin E, omega-3s, and L-arginine may support uterine health (always consult your clinic).
Stress management, meditation, time off work, and even laughter therapy can positively impact outcomes.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 58 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast Should you really go on bedrest for 24 to 48 hours after an embryo transfer. This is a question I hear all the time, and it's something many clinics have traditionally recommended, but research now shows that extended bedrest doesn't necessarily improve success rates, and in some cases may even lower them.
Michelle: So welcome to the Wholesome Fertility podcast. I'm your host Michelle Orbit, and in today's episode we'll explore what the studies actually say about bedrest after transfer, and I'll share holistic evidence-based ways you can prepare your body and mind to create the most welcoming and environment for implantation.
Michelle: So stay tuned.
Michelle: [00:01:00] So for years, clinics have been saying that after an embryo transfer, people should go on bedrest for 24 to 48 hours and basically not do much. And the idea was that laying flat is going to be optimal for helping the embryo stick. But here's what the research shows. In some cases they say that it makes absolutely no difference, and in other cases it actually shows that people who are a little more active, and we're not talking about.
Michelle: Exercise, just moving around, have a better chance of a successful embryo transfer than those who are on bedrest. And some clinics do not advise to rest for 24 to 48 hours after transfer. In fact, they believe that if you move around, you're gonna create more circulation and it's better for the outcome of the transfer.
Michelle: So from a traditional Chinese medicine perspective. It does make [00:02:00] sense that if you're not moving around a lot, you're gonna create more stagnation in the body and you wanna create more blood flow in order to support the new embryo growth and implantation. But ultimately, I do suggest that you speak to your doctor because every doctor has a different theory on this.
Michelle: And then what you could do is bring this to their attention if it is something that you're concerned about, and then ask them what their thought is and if there's any studies that back up what they're suggesting. But I also wanna cover a couple of different things that you might wanna look into when you are preparing your body for transfer and what you could do to really support the outcome.
Michelle: So I am a licensed acupuncturist and I specialize in fertility health, and I frequently support women who are going through the IVF journey. And one of the biggest things that I say is more timed and is really, really vital when it comes to transfers is getting acupuncture before and after the transfer.
Michelle: There's a protocol that has been shown to really help the outcome of the [00:03:00] transfers, and I personally have seen incredible success with it. But even way before that, I would say even a couple of months, it's really important to get acupuncturist so that you can increase the blood flow to the uterus and do this regularly so that it's not just a one-off acupuncture session.
Michelle: And oftentimes I suggest for people to get maybe twice a week. Before and leading up to the transfer. And I often suggest on warm, nourishing foods before and after the transfer. So things like bone broth is really supportive. And then before that you can do beets, which are very high in nitric oxide and they support blood circulation.
Michelle: And that is really something that you wanna do so that you can support more of that blood flow for that healthy uterine lining. And from a traditional Chinese medicine perspective. Warming foods such as bone broth and soups and stews are very supportive to a warm environment in the womb, which from A TCM perspective, supports receptivity.
Michelle: And some of the supplements I [00:04:00] often suggest are continuing coq 10, 'cause coq 10 is also really good for egg quality. It's also amazing for uterine lining. Vitamin E is really great. Omega threes your prenatal vitamins and L-arginine. Now, all of these things really depend on the clinic. Sometimes the clinic has their own method and protocols, and they prefer that you don't take certain supplements.
Michelle: So I would always make sure that you are on the same page with your doctor, and ultimately, I highly suggest. Working on your nervous system. So doing things like meditation and really working on the stress levels. And oftentimes, a lot of my patients have full-time jobs while they're going through this, and many times it's in secret.
Michelle: They don't really want their work to know what's going on in their personal life. So I often suggest taking that week off before transfer, really getting your body prepared so that you can mentally get a little break and a buffer from any other stressors and what's been shown to. Also improve outcomes [00:05:00] in embryo transfers is laughter therapy.
Michelle: So there was a study done and it was clown therapy, and this clown would come in and make people laugh after their embryo transfers. And the people that got exposed to the clowns and were laughing had an increased rate of pregnancies versus the group that did not have that. So I often suggest watch comedies and if nothing else, it really takes out the stress of the whole time and the two week wait.
Michelle: So it's kind of good as one other way to possibly get your mind off things, although sometimes it's impossible. One of my dear friends and colleagues, Monica, is the author of the IVF Planner and in there she has some adult coloring pages just to get your mind off the two week wave. So it's not often very possible to get your mind off it.
Michelle: Completely. But there are certain things that you can do to keep your mind occupied, and one of the ways to do this is really getting your hands busy. So any kind of craft or [00:06:00] drawing or coloring or even taking walks can really shift your perspective because when you're changing your physiology or doing something different, it can help take the edge off from the two week weight.
Michelle: I do also offer hypnosis audios, and one of them is for uterine lining and receptivity. So a lot of the different. Audios can shift and change depending on where you are in your journey or if you're going through the IVF journey, and this is in my membership, which includes lots of hypnosis audios, and you can find that in the episode notes.
Michelle: But all in all, really giving yourself that TLC, that time and support, possibly having a community around you or people that you can talk to. During this time, because I know that it could be really difficult for some people and some people are going through this after loss. So it's really, really important to have self-compassion and have tools ready so that when you do need something, you're able to readily access it.
Michelle: So I hope you got a lot of good information from this episode [00:07:00] because it is a very frequently asked topic, and that's why I thought about speaking specifically to embryo transfers and how you can really support that. In your journey. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I'll see you next time. [00:08:00]

Michelle Oravitz 10/6/25 Michelle Oravitz 10/6/25

Ep 357 5 Surprising Fertility Secrets That Could Change Everything!

Explore how blood flow impacts fertility and discover natural ways—like acupuncture, nutrient-rich foods, and lifestyle shifts—to support egg quality and implantation.

In this solo episode, I’m sharing five surprising fertility secrets that most people don’t know, but should! These insights may completely shift how you view your reproductive health and help you uncover areas that could be holding you back.

From the surprising link between gum health and fertility, to the fact that you can bleed monthly without actually ovulating, to how seasons, light exposure, and immune balance all play a powerful role in conception, this episode is packed with practical tools and eye-opening science.

Whether you’re actively trying to conceive, planning ahead, or simply curious about the deeper connections between your body and fertility, these insights will empower you to take charge of your journey.

Key Takeaways:

Gum and dental health directly impact sperm quality, egg health, and time to conception.
You can have a regular period without actually ovulating, here’s how to truly confirm ovulation.
Fertility can vary with the seasons, with research showing higher conception rates in autumn and winter.
Light exposure and circadian rhythm play a major role in hormone balance and reproductive health.
Immune balance is critical for implantation, too much or too little activity can block pregnancy.

Fertilysis Uterine Microbiome Test: https://www.fertilysis.com Use coupon code: WHOLESOMEFERTILITY for a discount.

MIRA at home hormone testing: https://mira-fertility.pxf.io/Gm4AXV Use coupon code: WHOLESOMEFERTILITY FOR 15% OFF!

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

# 357 solo (undedited)
Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 57 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I'm gonna be talking about five surprising fertility facts you may not have heard of. But before I get started, be sure to hit subscribe so that you can get notified for more future fertility boosting tips.
Michelle: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.
Michelle: So today I am going to be covering five very surprising fertility facts that you may have never heard of. Most people, especially when they first start trying to conceive, start to realize that there's so much information that comes into play, and sometimes they find surprising factors that they never [00:01:00] even thought had anything to do with fertility.
Michelle: Today I'm gonna be covering. Five different fertility facts that I find as a fertility acupuncturist and coach that many of the people that I work with have never heard of before. So fertility fact number one, the state of your dental health can affect fertility in both men and women. So this might come as a huge surprise.
Michelle: And I remember when I even started learning a lot more about fertility. When I decided to specialize in it about 10 years ago, I was very surprised when I first heard this. I knew that dental health was really important for inflammation overall, and I didn't realize at the time as I was starting to learn more about fertility, how impactful and important it is to keep the inflammation low when trying to conceive.
Michelle: So research has shown that women with periodontal disease. Which is advanced gum inflammation took an average of seven months to [00:02:00] conceive compared to women. That took five months that didn't have gum disease. For men, the evidence is compelling. Studies have linked gum disease to reduced sperm motility, abnormal morphology, and higher rates in sperm, DNA fragmentation, all of which cause lower chances of conception and also contribute to miscarriages.
Michelle: And this comes down to the fact that gum disease can impact. Systemic inflammation, so it starts in the mouth, but then it travels and impacts systemic inflammation in the body. This can increase oxidative stress and can impact reproductive tissues, so it's really important to take care of your dental health and floss daily.
Michelle: That makes a huge difference. I remember when I was in college. A long time ago, and I flossed once in a while, maybe a couple times a week, but I never really made it a habit and I paid for it. I had root canals. I ended up with a lot of dental work, [00:03:00] and then as soon as I realized how important it was and that I didn't wanna spend the money and go through all of that, I started flossing every single day.
Michelle: There's not a night that I go without flossing, and ever since then, which is over 20 years ago. I have never had any kind of dental issues, so flossing is huge. It's really, really important. I personally like to use Toms of Maine 'cause they're a really good clean product, but flossing is really important.
Michelle: And then also having regular dental checkups, making sure that. Your dentist takes a look at your teeth, sees if there's anything going on, because if there's any issue with your teeth, it can cause more inflammation. So making sure you are on top of that, and usually with those routine visits, you'll usually get a deeper clean being on top of your vitamin D, which is so important.
Michelle: And that of course also impacts fertility health. And you can consider using NIM products. It's an herb in Ayurvedic medicine that has been shown to help a lot with [00:04:00] skin and also gum health. So you can find toothpaste that have nim, and then you can also use mouthwash that has nim. I would not use mouthwash that is too strong or too antiseptic because that can throw off your oral microbiome.
Michelle: Which is also really important for dental health. So that is the first surprising fertility fact and fertility fact number two is very surprising for a lot of people that are first trying to conceive or first going through this journey. So you can get monthly bleeds and still not ovulate. So you can get what seems to be a regular menstrual cycle where you get your period every month.
Michelle: But that doesn't necessarily mean. You are ovulating, you actually have to check and confirm that ovulation happened. So typically in a normal cycle, ovulation triggers progesterone production. And this is because what happens during ovulation is women have lots of [00:05:00] follicles in their ovaries. And then when FSH increases in their follicular phase, which is really the phase from the period until ovulation.
Michelle: What happens is FSH will help one specific follicle grow the most, and that one follicle that ends up taking the most of the FSH and grows the most typically will be the one that ovulates. So the follicle contains the egg inside and when the. Egg shoots out. The remaining of the follicle is called the corpus lutetium.
Michelle: The corpus lutetium, which actually fun fact means yellow body, and that yellow is betacarotene, is what produces progesterone. And progesterone rises, and that's one of the ways that people can check to see if they actually did in fact ovulate. And then the uterine lining increases. In the second half, which is the luteal phase.
Michelle: And if there's no pregnancy, then the lining of the uterus sheds and that becomes the monthly bleed. However, with [00:06:00] anovulatory, which means no ovulation cycles, the uterine line can still increase with estrogen, which is. A hormone that increases in the follicular phase of the cycle. Once that buildup increases and becomes unstable, then the woman sheds.
Michelle: So even though she didn't ovulate, she still got a period. So common reasons for this could be anything from hormone imbalances, maybe even having estrogen dominance, which can happen from getting exposure to a. Endocrine disruptors or not being able to detoxify estrogen efficiently through the body.
Michelle: Other causes are things like PCOS, polycystic ovary syndrome, or thyroid imbalances, which really has a huge impact on ovulation. High stress can do this too. Extreme exercise or undereating her menopause, which is the time before menopause. Where your body is slowly shifting from having [00:07:00] cycles to not having cycles or any type of sudden weight change.
Michelle: And typically what happens is when women first try to start conceiving or couples are starting to work on it. They look at their cycles and one of the first things they do is they buy something called LH six or pks. And what that does is it measures the luteinizing hormone. So the luteinizing hormone is a hormone that is released from the pituitary gland when the body is trying to signal ovulation.
Michelle: So what that does is it signals the ovaries. To ovulate, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they responded. So it could be very confusing because people think that if they got a positive OPK or a positive LH surge, that that means that they actually ovulated. And that doesn't necessarily mean it. Now, it would be.
Michelle: Great information. If the person did in fact know they have Atory cycles. In that case, O PKS could be great. However, in order to truly confirm that you would need things like [00:08:00] either Aira device or checking your BBT charting or something like temp drop, and I can share a couple of resources in the description of this episode.
Michelle: Another thing that some women do is when they first go to an REI or fertility doctor, they will do a test. For both. They're day two, three of their periods, and that checks lots of different hormones like FSH, and then what they'll do is they'll actually have them come back after midpoint of their cycle around day 21 to check their progesterone.
Michelle: But this is a, a baseline that happens once. And doing the other tests that I mentioned is something that you can do monthly so that if things are a little off, you can shift things with your lifestyle and measure it. And see if those changes in your lifestyle are actually having an effect on your cycle.
Michelle: So those are a couple of tips that you can do, but just keep in mind that it is really important if you are actively trying to conceive that you really check your [00:09:00] cycle and understand and confirm if your body actually did in fact, ovulate. So onto the third fertility, surprising fact, and that is fertility actually varies with seasons.
Michelle: I know this sounds really crazy, but research shows that there are certain seasons that impact conception. So one study in reproductive biology and endocrinology. Found that embryo quality was higher in the autumn and winter compared to spring and summer. So there's different ideas and thoughts, and one of them could be maybe people got a little bit more vitamin D in the summer and then it impacted since it takes about three months for ex symmetry and shift, maybe it impacted by the time they actually did retrieve.
Michelle: Which is about three months. Or it could be also melatonin increasing with the shorter days, which acts as an antioxidant for the eggs and can increase egg quality. But it's also been shown that [00:10:00] conception rates in general increase around autumn and winter, which I find is just really, really, really fascinating.
Michelle: And I had a patient a long time ago. Who had one daughter and she would get pregnant, but then miscarry many different times and was trying to conceive for a very long time, years. And what she found was she would always conceive around November, around that time and fall. And so one point when we started working together, she told me she didn't wanna try to conceive around that time because she was so devastated by the losses that she was afraid.
Michelle: To conceive again during that time of the year because she thought that if she would conceive around that time of the year, it would fail. So at one point, after we've worked together for a while, I encouraged her, why don't you just still do it? Because it seems to be that that's the time that you conceive.
Michelle: She ended up with a full term healthy pregnancy, but I thought it was just so interesting that she kept conceiving around that same time that the [00:11:00] research shows conception gets higher. So I'm not sure if it is the vitamin D in the summer or the melatonin during the time where the days get shorter.
Michelle: Research doesn't really know exactly what it is, but for whatever reason, that is a very interesting time. People tend to conceive. And could it be the betacarotene that supports the corpus lium from all the holiday meals? Who knows? But it is a very surprising fact. So the next surprising fact, fact number four is that excessive or poor light can interfere with fertility.
Michelle: So our 24 hour clock, which is our circadian rhythm, is very much impacted by light. So this is why we get jet lagged. When we move from one time zone to another time zone. Our bodies feel off because they're not used to us being exposed to light at those certain times. And the light is really what anchors our internal clock.
Michelle: So the way I like to describe [00:12:00] it is that if you're a 24 hour clock. Is off, it's going to impact for women 30 day clock or the 29.5 day clock, which is considered the infra dian rhythm. So the 24 hour is the circadian rhythm and the 29.5 which follows the moon cycle is the infra clock. And if you look at a clock and the second hand.
Michelle: Is off and it's not working correctly, that second hand is going to impact the hour hand. So even though the hour hand is just doing its thing, the second hand is impacting it because it's all part of one complete whole. So research has shown that people who have conditions like PCOS, which has symptoms of irregular periods, also have a link to disrupted circadian rhythms.
Michelle: Not only that, the light in general impacts our ability to sleep. So if we get good early morning sun, that can actually impact our night melatonin. [00:13:00] Also getting early morning sun can increase cellular melatonin, which acts like an antioxidant for the eggs. And egg quality. And this can also help with sperm quality as well.
Michelle: For men, one of the biggest issues is screen time because screens have blue light. So one of the ways to protect from that later at night when your body is going to get confused by that blue light and think it's daytime and that will keep you up longer. And so that kind of disruption will impact your 24 hour day cycle.
Michelle: So one of the ways to get around it is. Either have your devices for night mode, and what they do is they, they'll start looking more yellow because the blue light aspect of the screen gets taken out, and that helps your eyes distinguish that it's not daytime by the confusion of looking at a blue light.
Michelle: Another thing you can do if you really can't avoid it, or you're watching TV and there's certain things that you can't really shift or change. Is get something called blue light blockers, and those are glasses that are not [00:14:00] prescription, and all they do is have a little bit of a yellow tint so that they can block the blue light from coming into your eyes.
Michelle: And you can also ease yourself in the evening by dimming the lights and not having it so bright. So really overall. Really anchoring it in the morning and getting early morning sun, and during that time the UV light is a lot lower, so it's not as dangerous, and it can also be very supportive to anchoring your circadian rhythm.
Michelle: So surprising fertility. Fact number five is that your body's immune balance is key to successful implantation. So, as you may know if you are on the fertility journey, is that fertility is not just about the egg and sperm meeting. There are so many other factors that contribute to a healthy pregnancy overall, and one of them is creating a really healthy environment and your uterine lining that is able to support healthy implantation.
Michelle: So keep this in mind, and this is a [00:15:00] really interesting thing that I found again when I first started learning about this, is that the body of a woman perceives sperm as a foreign entity, and therefore it can also perceive a fertilized. Embryo as a foreign entity. So in many cases, if a woman's immune system is too heightened, it can cause a inflammation in the uterine lining, but it can also cause her body's immune system to be too high for the embryo to be tolerated by the body.
Michelle: So when I mention immune system. And balance. It's important for it not to be too high, but it's also important for it not to be too low. So many things that can be done about this and uh, one of the things that people can look into is a great, it's called ferus. And what that does is it actually looks at the microbiome of the uterus with period blood.
Michelle: And it's an amazing test because it can give us a lot of information and it's something that you can do at home, and [00:16:00] I will link that in the show notes. And you can also speak to your fertility doctor to see what kind of tests you can do to make sure that there's no inflammation. I've spoken to way too many women that have been on this journey for years have gone through many IVF transfers that have failed, and finally, way later, their uterus lining was tested and they found out that they had.
Michelle: Some kind of infection. They needed to do a dose of antibiotics. So it's really, really sad to see so many years go by and so many failed transfers happen without any proper testing because as soon as you test, you can see what it is. You can treat it. And then transfers or even natural pregnancies can happen.
Michelle: I recently had a patient who had endometritis and it was left unchecked until one of her doctors actually checked and found out that she did in fact have something that was totally missed for many years. And she finally treated it, went through a [00:17:00] course of antibiotics. We worked on different supplements, and then she just had a transfer that was her first successful transfer and she's pregnant right now.
Michelle: So that's just one example of how something can be seemingly so easy to fix, but missed for many years. So it's important to really understand what is happening with the immune system. And so another thing that I wanted to mention. Which is kind of interesting, not a lot of people know, is that one of the reasons why having sex outside of the fertile window in the luteal phases is so good, besides the fact that it takes away the pressure of having to have sex during the time of the fertile window.
Michelle: It also helps your immune system. So for a woman, more chances of her body coming into contact with this. Sperm. The immune system actually lowers naturally, and this is a natural process that happens in sexually active women, is that their immune system will naturally lower so that it's able to receive new life.
Michelle: And not only that, you're getting more [00:18:00] blood flow, increasing oxytocin, doing all the good things. So it is important to have sex during the luteal phase, even though it's not a fertile time in order to improve the chances for conception. So that concludes the five Surprising Fertility Facts that you may have never heard of, and this just shows that reproductive health really is a reflection of so much more than just fertility.
Michelle: And this is why you really need to look at the body as a whole. And if you need support in this journey to uncover what's happening and what you can do without the overwhelm. I have you covered. You could check out my link in the show notes. And go on michelle orbit.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey to find out more.
Michelle: So thank you so much for tuning in. I hope this information was interesting and inspired you to look [00:19:00] into other ways to boost your chances of conceiving. Sending you all so much love, and I'll see you next time.

Michelle Oravitz 9/29/25 Michelle Oravitz 9/29/25

Ep 356 Acupuncture, Beets, and Blood Flow: Surprising Ways to Boost Fertility

Explore how blood flow impacts fertility and discover natural ways—like acupuncture, nutrient-rich foods, and lifestyle shifts—to support egg quality and implantation.

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle dives into a crucial but often overlooked factor in fertility: blood flow and microcirculation. From a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) perspective, blood is the carrier of nutrients, energy, and life force, making it essential for healthy egg quality, implantation, and overall reproductive wellness.

Michelle explains how poor circulation can lead to challenges like blood stasis, endometriosis, or thin uterine lining, and shares practical ways to support optimal flow. You’ll learn how acupuncture, abdominal massage, castor oil packs, stress reduction, and nutrient-rich foods like beets, pomegranates, and omega-3s can transform fertility outcomes.

This episode offers both science, backed insights and TCM wisdom to help you nurture your body, balance your energy, and create the ideal conditions for conception.

Key Takeaways:

Adequate blood flow to the uterus and ovaries is essential for egg quality and implantation.
Stress and “liver qi stagnation” can constrict circulation, but acupuncture helps restore balance.
Foods like beets, pomegranate juice, and omega-3s naturally increase nitric oxide and improve blood vessel health.
Simple lifestyle shifts like yoga, breathwork, and warm nourishing meals can enhance circulation and fertility.
Abdominal massage and castor oil packs are powerful, low-cost tools to support reproductive health.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

[00:00:00] Episode number 3 56 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Oravitz. Today I'm going to be talking about a topic that oftentimes is not really the center of focus when it comes to fertility health, and that is blood flow and micro circulation.
We'll explore why uterine and ovarian blood flow is. So important for your fertility and how poor blood flow can impact chances of conception, and most importantly, natural ways like acupuncture, nutrition, and lifestyle to support healthy microcirculation and optimize your fertility.
Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I am Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility [00:01:00] journey.
Michelle: So here's why blood flow matters. Not only is blood flow important for your whole body, it brings in oxygen, and Chinese medicine really sees blood as a carrier of nutrients as well, and it's able to feed all the different parts of our bodies so that our organs and cells are able to function optimally.
Michelle: But specifically the uterus. Sand the ovaries rely on a rich blood supply to deliver oxygen and nutrients. Adequate blood flow ensures a thick and healthy endometrium, which is the lining of the uterus, and this is essential for implantation and ovarian nourishment supports follicle development and egg.
Michelle: Quality. It also supports whatever lifestyle choices you're making. So if you're eating better foods or if you're taking certain supplements that are helping with egg quality, that blood flow is going to ensure that all [00:02:00] those nutrients are being carried and can actually impact the ovaries and egg quality.
Michelle: Ultrasound studies have shown that reduced artery blood flow is associated with lower implantation rates and pregnancy rates. Poor ovarian blood flow can compromise follicular and hormone secretion ultimately affecting equality. So like I mentioned in TCM, we see the blood as being extremely important.
Michelle: Especially for women because it supports their natural reproductive health. For women, they lose blood once a month, so it's even more important that they get more blood and they build blood through food and through nutrients and lifestyle choices, not only is blood flow important. Difficulty in blood flow or blood deficiency can cause a lot of other problems.
Michelle: So blood deficiency is when you don't have enough blood and the body needs to build more, and this can be a result of many different factors. So in Chinese medicine, the spleen in the stomach, paired organs that [00:03:00] support digestion, their main role is transforming and transporting nutrients from the food.
Michelle: Into blood. So if your spleen and stomach are weak, it's going to impact how you're able to produce blood. Another thing we can look at is blood flow or lack thereof can cause something called blood stasis. In TCM, blood stasis eventually, if it's around for too long, can cause buildup. And so a lot of times blood stasis.
Michelle: Can impact conditions like endometriosis or possibly uterine fibroids or tumors, because when something gets stagnant for too long, it starts to harden. So ideally you would have really beautiful blood flow. You would have enough blood to go through, and then also you'd be supporting a woman's cycle because every month.
Michelle: She bleeds. So you'd be supporting the process of her building more blood so that her body is able to support the next monthly cycle. So in TCM, we [00:04:00] talk about something called liver cheese stagnation. And this is actually something that is similar to blood stagnation except it's the first stage of that stagnation.
Michelle: So first the qi, which is the life force vitality gets stagnated, and this can happen from a lot of. Chronic stress, so too much stress can constrict the body. And this is called liver s stagnation. This is a very common pattern that we see, and we're really living at a time that it is a very collective type of pattern, and we see this very often.
Michelle: And it really does respond to emotions. It responds to stress. And it's very logical if you think about it, because whenever you feel stress, you become more constricted. You become more tight, and you can literally feel it. And one of the things that we can feel with liver stagnation is really the tension that we hold above in our shoulders.
Michelle: Literally feeling like we're carrying the weight of the world on our shoulders. And what happens is eventually, if. Chi [00:05:00] stagnation, which is really your life force vitality, which is like more on the energetic aspect of the body. If that gets stagnated for too long, it could turn into blood stasis.
Michelle: Now, it also will constrict not only the muscles here, but the muscles in our veins 'cause. The vessels themselves are a type of muscle, and that can cause more constriction in the blood, circulation in the body. So all of that constriction over time, especially if it's chronic, can impact blood flow overall.
Michelle: Another reason why some people might not have adequate blood flow is from not eating enough nutrients, like I mentioned before. So not really eating enough and not having a good variety in your diet to. Support the blood production. And when people don't exercise enough or move enough, they're not really getting that circulation physically, mechanically that their body needs.
Michelle: So this can reduce circulation, but can also reduce lymphatic flow, which is really the fluids that we have in our [00:06:00] lymphatic system. So unlike our blood vessels that have our heart moving the blood, it's a little more difficult with the lymphatics and this is why it relies on us really moving in order for it to circulate.
Michelle: Another thing to consider is. Inflammation or oxidative stress. And this can cause damage in the endothelial cells, which are aligning the blood vessels, smoking alcohol or excess caffeine, narrow blood vessels, and can reduce microvascular efficiency. And then having too much cold in the womb or too much cold in the system can congeal blood.
Michelle: So if you think about it, a lot of this stuff actually makes logical sense. What happens when something's too cold or if fluid gets too cold, it starts to congeal. It doesn't move as fast. So having too much cold can really cause it to stagnate. And then on the other hand, you don't want too much heat 'cause then it like evaporates.
Michelle: It needs to have an environment that is just right. And this is why we always go back to the yin and the. Balance because that creates the [00:07:00] ultimate harmony that the body likes and thrives in. So of course, I'm very biased on this one thing that helps blood flow tremendously, and this is acupuncture. It's something that I do.
Michelle: I'm an acupuncturist and actually many times IVF doctors will recommend for their patients to go see acupuncturists because they know that the blood flow is so important and that acupuncture really helps with this blood flow. Not only that, when they take the medications. That blood flow can help all those medications through the blood to the ovaries or the uterine lining, depending on if they're preparing for a retrieval or a transfer.
Michelle: Other things that we wanna consider is also nitric oxide because nitric oxide is a molecule that helps the blood vessels to relax. That causes them to dilate and have more blood circulation moving through the body. It can actually also support heart health because we want more circulation going through the blood.
Michelle: So it has a lot of other health benefits, [00:08:00] but one of the biggest ones is really getting that blood circulation and increased blood circulation to the uterus and the ovaries, and then also considering moving through a fight and flight state or a sympathetic state to a more rest and digest parasympathetic state.
Michelle: What happens then is the same thing. The blood vessels will constrict a lot more when you're in a survival or sympathetic state versus a rest and digest state or a parasympathetic state where your blood vessels are more opened and relaxed and that supports more blood flow. One of the ways I can see that the acupuncture sessions work is many of my patients actually come in.
Michelle: With a lot of pain when they have their periods, and one of the things that shows us that there is stagnation is pain. So when something is constricted or there's resistance, you know that something's not moving well, and usually that reflects is pain. So over time, when patients come in and get acupuncture regularly, one of the first [00:09:00] things they'll mention is that their cycles feel more easy.
Michelle: They don't get as much brown blood, which also is a sign of stagnation and lack of blood flow, and they'll also notice that they don't feel as much pain. They also see that their Q moves easier because the liver, which is the organ that ensures free flow of QI and that stagnates, like I mentioned before, when you have stress.
Michelle: Organ is actually a really important organ to support the body and prepare it for menstruation. And so one of the other things that they notice is that their PMS isn't as bad and they feel a little more at ease right before their period. So ultimately, all of those normal symptoms or what we call normal, are actually more common than they are really normal.
Michelle: And when people get that chief flow and that energy flow, they start to feel better. Then they don't feel those symptoms as much. So as far as lifestyle goes, what I often suggest is yoga, not too much exercise. 'cause [00:10:00] that can also impede blood flow by deficiency. But having a really regulated and balanced workout routine.
Michelle: So you could do things like yoga. Qigong, you could do running or walking. You just don't wanna do too much. And weights are fine as long as, again, it's not too much. So you wanna have a balanced lifestyle. And really, depending on your body type, if you have a lot of Earth and your body is really strong, then you're able to handle a little bit more.
Michelle: But if you're really frail and a little more thin on the thin side, your body might need more nurturing and nutrients. And more balanced and easy types of exercise so that you're not overly depleting your body. And so I mentioned how brown blood or pain can signify that there's some kind of stagnation in the uterus.
Michelle: You can also notice if you have scanty menstruation and less blood, then you'll see that you have less blood flow. And so another thing that you can do if you're not able to get acupuncture is [00:11:00] you could do abdomen massage. And that can help a lot as well. Don't underestimate your hands. Just because they're here and they're free doesn't mean that they're not powerful.
Michelle: And massaging yourself is something that's been done in Ayurvedic practices for thousands of years because it has tremendous health benefits. So you can not only massage your whole body, but you might wanna spend a little excess time. On your abdomen. So going around clockwise, around your belly button and supporting the area in your pelvis.
Michelle: And again, this is like very intuitive work. You know your body, once you start to connect and massage yourself, your body will tell you where you need more flow and you might feel a little bit more achy or you might feel a little more. Stuck in certain areas, and you'll notice that as you're feeling it.
Michelle: So start to connect with your body and see where you feel you need a little bit more massage and TLC and where you might be even feeling a little more stuck, and that can [00:12:00] really help a lot. Another thing that can help is working on that mindset, working on lowering that. Because you wanna get yourself into more of a parasympathetic state and not always a sympathetic.
Michelle: And keep in mind, we always have the balance of the two and the balance of the two is a normal thing. You just don't want too much on one side. You wanna be able to balance right back into a more rest and digest calm state. So you could do things like meditation. Breath work, which really circulates a lot of energy through the body and that self massage.
Michelle: Something else that is really beneficial is doing castor oil packs. I have a lot of people asking me, when is the best time to do that? The best time to do castor oil packs? If you're trying to. Conceive actively would be really only a little short window, which is right after your period, and then up to the time that you're ovulating.
Michelle: And that's it. Because if you're actively trying to conceive, you don't wanna move too much after the window of possible [00:13:00] implantation, so as to not disturb that process. However, if you feel that. You really get a lot of PMS and you have a lot of liver type symptoms, which can manifest as fibroids, even endometriosis.
Michelle: You might want to take that castor oil pack and move it to right around the liver, which is under your right ribs and that area. So you're not really going in that. Pelvic area, you're just touching the liver. And that could be another thing that you can do after ovulation that can support that while not moving too much in that pelvic region.
Michelle: And then as far as nitric oxide goes, you could eat foods that can increase nitric oxide, and one of the best foods for that are beets. And it's really amazing how nature will show you the color of blood through beets, which is. Amazing to me because it really gives us a little clues as to what that food can help.
Michelle: So beet [00:14:00] root powder, if you want something a little bit more strong or just really eating beets, and believe it or not, pomegranate juice is also very rich in nitric oxide Again. The blood color, that's a clear giveaway. And then you also wanna focus on omega threes, which lower inflammation and improves endothelial health.
Michelle: Another thing too, combat oxidative stress is go high on the antioxidants like berries and dark, raw chocolate, which is also really high in magnesium. And then lastly, like I mentioned before, too much cold in the system is not great. When it comes to blood circulation, so you want warm, nourishing foods, so bone broth, maybe some herbal teas with ginger cinnamon, and also cook your vegetables so you're not having too much raw, which is also something that has a lot of cold nature and avoid ice cream or ice liquids as well.
Michelle: So if you really love your smoothies, that's fine. I always say 2080 and 80% cooked [00:15:00] vegetables, 20% raw. If you are gonna have smoothies, make sure it's not too icy, or if you're using some frozen vegetables or fruits, just let it sit out for a little bit. Before drinking it, and some supplements that have been shown to help with blood flow, although I always suggest talk to your doctor first before starting any supplements because it really depends on you and what you need.
Michelle: And it's really important to speak to a qualified doctor and practitioner. But what's been shown to help is L-Arginine, which is a precursor to nitric oxide and coq 10, which supports mitochondrial and vascular health. So when it comes to just focusing on the uterine lining. You could definitely take L-arginine, but there's been mixed results on how that impacts egg quality.
Michelle: So when I personally suggest, I usually say do L-arginine, only if you're focusing on the lining, for example, when you're preparing for a uterine trance. For with IVF, but that's my personal thoughts and I would definitely talk to your [00:16:00] doctor because your case might be really unique and different, and the best person to talk to is the person that you're working with.
Michelle: And of course, like I mentioned before, beet root juice and powder is something that you can use as a supplement to naturally boost. Nitric oxide. So as you can see, the flow of the areas and the uterus and the flow in the body really makes a difference. When it comes to reproductive health. We look at sometimes reproductive health is just its own thing, but it's really not.
Michelle: It's part of this big, beautiful hole that is your body, and that hole impacts all of the different parts. So that flow not only through chief flow, but also through blood flow. Really matters when it comes to your body and when it comes to your reproductive health. So if you are on the fertility journey, I've created a lot of different resources that I do share, and you could check it out and see which one would be best for you, depending on your journey.
Michelle: And this is why I've created the Wholesome Fertility journey, and you can find a link down [00:17:00] below. And when you click on the link, you'll find a quiz that can help you figure out where you are on your journey and what it is that you need. Because I created it to be customized for you and meet you where you are at, depending on where you are on your journey.
Michelle: So I definitely encourage you, check it out. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.
[00:18:00]

Michelle Oravitz 9/22/25 Michelle Oravitz 9/22/25

Ep 355 The Truth About ‘Ozempic Pregnancies’ No One’s Talking About

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle explores the truth about “Ozempic pregnancies” and the rise of GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy in fertility treatment. Learn how these medications impact insulin resistance, PCOS, ovulation, and egg quality, and why they may only provide temporary results. From a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) perspective, Michelle shares how strengthening digestion and spleen qi, practicing mindful eating, and aligning with circadian rhythms can naturally restore hormone balance and support long-term fertility health.

In today’s episode, I dive into the rising phenomenon of so-called “Ozempic pregnancies” and uncover what’s really happening behind the headlines. GLP-1 receptor agonists like Ozempic and Wegovy were originally developed for type 2 diabetes, but are now being used by many women with PCOS, insulin resistance, or weight challenges to support fertility.

I’ll break down how these medications work, why they may help some women conceive, and the important risks and limitations you need to know. From a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) perspective, we’ll explore why simply taking a drug isn’t enough to address the root cause, and how digestive health, spleen qi, and lifestyle habits hold the key to lasting fertility and hormone balance.

I’ll also share practical strategies you can start today, like mindful eating, warming your digestive fire, and syncing with your circadian rhythm, that can naturally support your fertility journey.

Key Takeaways:

GLP-1 medications like Ozempic can temporarily improve insulin sensitivity but don’t resolve the root causes of infertility.
Insulin resistance impacts ovulation, egg quality, and hormone balance, especially in women with PCOS.
TCM approaches fertility by strengthening the digestive system and restoring balance, rather than suppressing symptoms.
Mindful eating, warm digestion-supporting practices, and aligning meals with the body’s circadian rhythm are powerful fertility boosters.
Sustainable lifestyle changes are essential for lasting fertility health, beyond short-term medication use.

Links mentioned:

📕Fertility Diet eBook

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Michelle: Episode number 3 55 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a very hot topic, Ozempic and Fertility. You may have heard the phrase, Ozempic Babies referring to women who became pregnant unexpectedly while on these drugs.
Michelle: But what's really going on in this episode, we'll talk about what GLP one medications like Ozempic and Wego v. Actually do how they affect insulin resistance and the role that insulin resistance plays in fertility. And then I'll of course show you how we look at this through the lens of traditional Chinese medicine where the focus is always addressing the root cause.
Michelle: This is gonna be a really interesting topic, so stay tuned.
[00:01:00]
Michelle: GLP one. Drugs like ozempic and wegovy are what's called GLP receptor agonists. GLP one stands for glucagon like peptide one a hormone your body naturally produces in response to eating. So these drugs work. By slowing how fast your stomach empties out food. And they also improve how your body responds to insulin while lowering blood sugar.
Michelle: And what they do is they reduce a person's appetite and they also promote weight loss. So originally these drugs were made for type two diabetes where people begin to have insulin resistance. So their body produces too much insulin and their cells eventually get [00:02:00] resistant to it. But now over time, people have started using these drugs for weight loss and now many women with insulin resistance or people who are overweight and trying to conceive, or people who have PCOS and tend to have a little bit more insulin resistance in general, have been using these drugs to help them conceive.
Michelle: What happens is many women take these drugs. And then they eventually lose weight or it increases their insulin receptivity and therefore it helps them conceive and the lower a woman's insulin resistance is. The more healthy and regulated her cycles are, the less inflammation she has in her body. And it can also increase egg quality as well.
Michelle: So for many women with PCOS, these shifts can be really dramatic and sometimes lead to pregnancies after years of struggle. So let's talk about insulin resistance. 'cause I know that is by itself a very hot topic. It's something that we often hear, especially [00:03:00] for women who have PCOS. So insulin resistance happens when your body's cells and many different types of cells stop responding properly to insulin.
Michelle: So insulin moves sugar from your blood into your cells for more energy. And when insulin is not able to do its job properly, over time, the cells are not gonna get the sugar they need, and then the sugar in the blood will increase. And then what happens is the pancreas tries to increase its production of insulin to balance this out and over time, this increases insulin in the bloodstream and this leads to high insulin as well as high blood sugar levels eventually, when the pancreas cannot keep up.
Michelle: This can lead to something called type two diabetes, which increases inflammation in the body as well. So how this impacts fertility health is multifold. It can really disrupt hormone balance, and excess [00:04:00] insulin can cause the ovaries to make more testosterone and less estrogen. And this can cause an issue with ovulation.
Michelle: And this is one of the reasons why women who have PCOS. Have the type of PCOS that is insulin resistance, because not all PCOS looks the same, but the majority does tend to have insulin resistance. This is one of the reasons why you'll find a lot of high androgens in cases of PCOS, and you'll also find that a lot of people with PCOS have irregular cycles or aren't even ovulating.
Michelle: High insulin can also cause the ovaries not to respond as well to hormones that trigger the release of the egg, which is why it can also cause issues with ovulation. Insulin resistance also causes cells to not get the energy they need because eggs are cells. It's. The largest cell in a woman's body, it's not going to get the energy production that it needs to increase the quality.
Michelle: Polycystic poly, [00:05:00] meaning many is actually referring to not cysts, but follicles that are growing, but they're not fully maturing the way they're supposed to because they don't have the right type of energy. So this actually leads to lower quality eggs, and you'll find that a lot of. Women with PCOS that do IVF may have a lot of eggs extracted, but ultimately not that many will end up being healthy embryos.
Michelle: And this is because the quality is not as high. And not only that being insulin resistance can increase a lot of inflammation in the body, which can cause so many issues. It can also impact equality, but it can also impact digestion and how women are really processing food and nutrients into their body.
Michelle: So as you can see, it can cause a whole host of impacts on fertility health. So I did mention PCOS, however. Insulin resistance can also occur in women that do not have PCOS. So it's not just something that you'll find [00:06:00] with PCOS, and unfortunately, we're living at a time where we have lots of different aspects and contributors in our environment that can cause issues with insulin resistance.
Michelle: So this can be very much environmental as well. So ultimately. It all comes down to insulin and really getting that in check. But here is the thing, even though many women can have a temporary impact of insulin sensitivity due to taking these drugs, this is not a permanent thing. So once they get off of it, their body is automatically gonna go back to its original state, and we haven't really addressed the root issue.
Michelle: And can that cause any future? Impacts, we don't really know. There are also certain risks that can be involved. It's not really recommended to take when you're pregnant, so you could get to a certain healthy level. And then once you get pregnant, there's no guarantee that your insulin sensitivity is gonna stay the same unless you make some other impacts and lifestyle [00:07:00] changes.
Michelle: So another thing to consider is because your digestive system is being slowed down. This can impact how your body is absorbing nutrients. And of course, those nutrients are really important for your egg quality. So while this impact could be temporary, where your body loses weight and your body's able to process energy, is this something that you wanna do long term and at what point?
Michelle: Can this get really expensive and also not really help your body's overall balance? There's just not a lot of information either on how GLP one drugs can impact embryo quality or the child's health. There's also a dependency factor because once people stop GLP one drugs. If they're gonna go back to the same pattern before where they might still have that insulin resistance rising, unless again, they're changing something in their lifestyle.
Michelle: So from A TCM perspective, traditional [00:08:00] Chinese medicine, and this is kind of my. Thing we look at really the root cause. We don't really treat symptoms, and what that means is five different people can come with the same symptom, but each person might have a different reason for why that symptom is emerging.
Michelle: So this is the reason we cannot really be treating the symptom, but we wanna look at the underlying cause. So a person can come in for a headache and that can be because they have too much cold in their system. Another person can have headaches. From blood deficiency, another person can have headaches from blood stagnation and so on.
Michelle: So there's so many different things. But if I'm treating somebody with blood stagnation as if they're blood deficient and I'm tonifying that blood, that can actually cause an adverse effect. So ultimately, we're looking at the whole person and the root cause in order to create a harmony in their body so that their body is able to self-heal.
Michelle: And many times in cases of PCOS. There are certain patterns that we'll see, and one of them [00:09:00] is being spleen sheet deficient. So when you have any kind of digestive issues and you're getting excess, what we call excess damp, so fat is considered a damp substance and that can accumulate when your spleen sheet is deficient.
Michelle: Now what does that mean? Your spleen and stomach working as a pair are really in charge of your digestive health, and if they're not doing their job. Properly. Then there's an accumulation happening. And that can be looked at as really that lagging of spleen. They're not able to really process nutrients and take from food what can ultimately be translated into the body as chi and blood.
Michelle: And think about it, you know, it's basically saying that your cells are not gonna get the energy they need from the food, which ultimately is describing what happens when a person is insulin resistant. They are not able to process and take the sugar into the cells. So from [00:10:00] a Chinese medicine perspective, they see it as the body's digestive system is just not functioning properly.
Michelle: And so we need to tonify and support that rather than actually depleting a person and getting them to lose weight. Forcefully, what they do is actually work on the digestive system and improve it, increase it, support it, and ultimately just. By strengthening the digestive system in the spleen and stomach, you're helping the spleen and stomach to process and translate energy from food.
Michelle: So here's a few things that you could be doing to support your spleen and stomach. Ideally, you go to an acupuncturist and the acupuncturist can give you acupuncture and herbs to support your spleen and stomach, and they many times will suggest some foods that you can take to support your digestion as well.
Michelle: But here are some things that you can do. Right away. And I always suggest in the beginning to become more mindful, to really increase that mindfulness around [00:11:00] eating. Because you have this amazing body that is very intelligent and it loves to communicate with you. However, many times we ignore this communication, but once you become mindful, you'll notice that your body's going to communicate more and you're gonna start to really understand what it's saying.
Michelle: And especially when it comes to food, which is one of the reasons why I really highly suggest. Starting a food diary. So basically writing down everything that you're eating. And it's not so hard nowadays. You can find even apps that you can put it on your phone. 'cause we have our phones next to us twenty four seven these days.
Michelle: So you can have something where you're writing things down. On what you're eating, but then also noting how do you feel after you eat? Do you feel any changes? Do you feel any difference? So those are things that you can kind of pay attention to. And one of the things you can do too, is a warm water with lemon in the morning.
Michelle: And I also highly suggest adding cinnamon to it because cinnamon can help with blood sugar. So those are things that [00:12:00] you can actually do to support your digestive system. And in Ayurvedic medicine, which is an ancient Indian medicine, is very much related to Chinese medicine. They often suggest kindling the Agni of your stomach.
Michelle: So the Agni is considered your digestive fire and that is able to really transform nutrients into the body. And many times we have diluted. Our digestive fire by eating too many colds in the form of ice drinks or even ice smoothies in the morning, first thing. And our digestive system really needs to be warm.
Michelle: It wants to be warm because it's cooking our food. So when we're constantly giving it cold foods or cold. Drinks, then it can really impact its ability to digest. And you really wanna look at your digestive system from the beginning to the end. So another thing that I highly suggest, which many people do not do, is really spend time looking at your food.
Michelle: [00:13:00] So you start really with your eyes, looking at your food before you eat, becoming mindful with your food. And then secondly, when you do actually start eating, chew your food, use your teeth. Your teeth are the first things that you have. Mastication. And what this does is it actually prepares your whole body to digest the food properly.
Michelle: And then what happens is you masticate with your teeth, the food, and then you mix the food with your saliva. And the saliva starts by your vision. When you're looking at food and you're hungry, it will actually make you salivate. So all of this is preparing you to create these enzymes, to mix those enzymes with your saliva.
Michelle: And really prepare the food for digestion. If you can do this every day, it's going to be a game changer. So also prepping your nervous system for proper digestion. So you've probably heard about the rest and digest mode, and why is it called [00:14:00] rest and digest? This is because it is a nervous system state that is more primed for digestion versus a nervous system state that is more fight or flight.
Michelle: And being in sympathetic or fight and flight is not necessarily always so extreme. So you could be in fight or flight or even. Sympathetic when you're driving a car and you're constantly aware of what's coming at you. So you have to be ultra conscious, which is one of the reasons why, and for many other good reasons for safety, you really shouldn't be eating while you're driving.
Michelle: So ultimately, you want your mind and your consciousness to be on the food. So even watching things while you're eating. Means you're multitasking and you're not really able to relax and calm down and be present with your food. So you really want to have a very calm state so that your body is in this rest and digest [00:15:00] parasympathetic mode, which is optimal for digestion.
Michelle: Something else that I highly recommend is really using nature and the circadian rhythm, and it's interesting because in PCOS, which happens to have a lot of insulin resistance patterns. There's a link that shows that a lot of people with PCOS have circadian rhythm imbalances, which is interesting to me because that's, uh, something that we want to regulate in our body is related to how the sun is during the day.
Michelle: And so the circadian rhythm is our 24 hour clock, and that can impact our sleep wake cycle. But not just that, it also impacts our digestion. Ayurvedic medicine teaches that the best time to have the largest meal. Really shouldn't be at sundown, which is what most of us do. It should be when the sun is highest, which is 12 to two, that's the best time to have the biggest meals.
Michelle: Protein rich, really difficult to digest proteins, and then coupling that with. Things that are [00:16:00] high in fiber, like vegetables and healthy fats. So this is a time where our Agni is at its peak and we're really using and borrowing from what nature's doing and the nature's clock. So my suggestion is if you do have insulin resistance, look into possibly not doing intermittent fasting where you're skipping breakfast, but actually.
Michelle: Doing it the opposite, having a good breakfast, having a really great lunch, and then a smaller meal at the end of the day as the sun is going down, and then not having any food for the rest of the night. So maybe a couple of hours, at least three before you go to sleep. So you are having this fasting window, but it's not in the morning first thing, when your body's primed to digest.
Michelle: It's actually at the end of the day, this will help you with sleep and it also has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity. So these are just a couple of things that I suggest, but also you can work on stress and really priming that [00:17:00] nervous system so that it is much more receptive to digestion. That being said, GLP one medications may be something that can benefit you.
Michelle: I don't know. My suggestion is always speak to a doctor. Also do your own research. So I hope this answered a lot of questions that you might have. And if you'd like, I have my fertility diet ebook, and you can find that in the show notes. And in this ebook, I share a lot of great tips on how to support your fertility through food.
Michelle: So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day. [00:18:00] [00:19:00]