Ep 383 A New Way to Freeze Your Eggs: Retreats, Community, and Holistic Care

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Aliza Virani (@thefertilitycoliving), founder of The Fertility Co-Living, to explore a completely new approach to egg freezing that combines medical care, holistic wellness, and community. Aliza shares her personal journey through egg freezing, including the emotional challenges, high financial costs, and lack of support she experienced. After spending thousands of dollars on a cycle that resulted in only a few eggs, she knew there had to be a better way, which led her to create a retreat-style experience where women can go through egg freezing together while receiving both clinical and holistic support.

In this episode, we discuss the true cost of egg freezing in North America, why more women are choosing to go abroad, and how integrating nervous system regulation, nutrition, and community can improve both the experience and outcomes. This is a powerful conversation that brings a more human, supported, and intentional approach to fertility care.

Key Takeaways:

• Egg freezing in North America can cost up to $20,000 per cycle.

• Many women feel isolated and unsupported during the process.

• Going abroad can significantly reduce costs and improve access.

• Holistic practices may support egg quality and overall outcomes.

• Nervous system regulation plays a key role in fertility health.

• Community support can transform the emotional experience.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

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• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 383 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvi, and today I am joined by Elisa Verani, founder of the Fertility Co-Living, a retreat style experience that combines medical care, holistic wellness, and community for women freezing their eggs abroad after going through her own difficult and costly egg freezing experience in Canada, which resulted in just three eggs.

  Aliza knew there had to be a better way. In this episode, we talk about the emotional, financial, and physical realities of egg freezing. Why more women are choosing to do it abroad and how bringing together community nervous system support and holistic care can completely transform the experience. This is such a unique and needed conversation, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

  [00:01:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Aliza. I'm so happy to have you finally.

  So your whole business and your whole story is so interesting to me. I don't know that I've had anybody really on the podcast before with this particular topic. it seems very needed. So for people listening, I would love for you to share your story and how you got into the work that you're doing right now as far as helping, women with egg freezing and

  Aliza: Yeah, absolutely. So my story started about three years ago. I'm 36 now, and at 33 I froze my eggs in Vancouver, Canada, where I was, born and raised, and. [00:02:00] I felt the whole process was quite emotional, isolating. I felt that I wasn't as informed as I could have been, and ultimately I ended up with three eggs, and so that was.

  Really disheartening also because I had spent close to about what was $16,000 at the time. Now the same process is $18,000 plus $750 per year on storage. So about $20,000, for, you know, a very emotional process as well as only resulting in three eggs. and so. I thought there had to be a better way. there were so many gaps in, there are so many gaps in fertility care.

  I mean, science technology have come such a far way for egg freezing and IVF treatments, but we constantly hear about this, Of grief that comes up for women. And egg freezing at the time had been marketed as something [00:03:00] that was super empowering. That's something you did because you were taking control of your fertility and control of your future, which when I went through the process, didn't feel that way at all.

  There was a lot of grief in it. It actually felt like my back was up against a wall. I was single. you know, I had this a MH level that was kind of like I was told was. Was average to low and it would be really good to freeze my eggs as fast as I can. And then of course, the financial factor came in where I had to pull all this money outta, in my early thirties, money that was, you know, being saved for other things.

  And so I started looking at, at that time my doctor, I do feel like I've kind of done this in a really long-winded way. Is there, do you want me to.

  Michelle: Oh, no, you're No, no, it's fine. I, I actually like a lot of information.

  Aliza: and so, so obviously because I got three eggs, my doctor did recommend that I do an [00:04:00] additional cycle. And so I started looking at options abroad because I couldn't afford to do multiple cycles in Vancouver where it was, you know, 16 to $20,000 per cycle. And I looked at all the different countries in the world because I am, you know, I've been remotely working for the last eight years and I was able to travel anywhere. And had I known that I needed multiple cycles upfront, I think I would've looked abroad to begin with, but. I wasn't informed on that process based on my testing, and so I ended up honing on Mexico for a number of reasons. And during this time I also had gone through a major health crisis, so I had.

  Experienced extreme pain in my eyes, neuralgia. And that meant that I had basically what felt like acid in my eyes, that spread through my head, down the side of my face, into my neck, and into my shoulders [00:05:00] constantly. Every time I blinked and I had quit my job, I had flown around the world to see, you know, every doctor and specialist possible out of pocket.

  Sent around $70,000. I was, my nervous system was like a complete mess. But, you know, I didn't even really know what the nervous system was at at that point in time. And I was just so fixated that this was, you know, a physical issue and eventually, I got, help in, you know, in the US with a specialized doctor, but the doctor in America and the doctor in Canada didn't really connect and my case kind of was super complex and fell through the cracks, which, resulted in me losing part of my vision in my left eye.

  And so.

  Michelle: Oh.

  Aliza: quite defeated, burnt out at that point in time. I started doing things that I rolled my eyes at the year before, things that people had recommended to me. Some people had recommended to me or I had heard about, but I didn't think would really [00:06:00] move the needle on my medical condition. I thought they were just things that would help me mentally feel better.

  And there were things that, We're like acupuncture things like meditation, things like, you know, addressing the nervous system and breath work and a lot of the work that you know you address in your podcast with your guests. And slowly but surely, I started to feel better. the pain starts to subside and though I don't have like some sort of miracle story with, you know, my vision magically came back, the pain did start to feel better. So I decided that I didn't want to do any, go forward with any medical process ever again, if not in a holistic way. So addressing the emotional and the spiritual, aspects to

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aliza: And, lo and behold, the work that I did on my eyes over two years resulted in my fertility levels. So my a MH rising by 84%, years later.

  Michelle: That's [00:07:00] incredible. That's a, that's a significant number. I'm sure a lot of people are loving hearing this right now.

  Aliza: I had already began these egg freezing retreats where I had started to build something that I wanted and then I went to a digital nomad conference where I just said to women there, you know, I wasn't a plan speaker or anything. It was kind of like an unconference, what is what they called them.

  And I said, look, I've done all this research on, egg freezing abroad. In different countries and the regulations and rules and things you should ask. So how to vet your clinics if anybody wants to attend, like it's just free information. I'd like to share. 25 women showed up of that. 22 women signed up on my email list when I offered them.

  Let me see if I can negotiate as a group discount with the clinic. And of those, half of the women once said that they would wanna live together while doing it. And that's how our group Egg Freezing retreat started. And. Yeah, so that's how it's centered around holistic [00:08:00] health, infertility, as well as these group egg freezing retreats.

  And now we're building something that, as you said, is really, its first of its kind.

  Michelle: That's amazing. So that's so cool. I, I just love the whole idea of retreats and I'll be honest, I think that we don't know anything as far as the power of community, like the power of community heals you, like physically you can really. So much better. And I do think that there are some, studies that were more like group, therapy.

  There's something about groups in community that is extremely, extremely powerful. So I, I love the idea of people coming together, going through a very challenging time and supporting, themselves and each other at the same time. That to me is just such a

  Aliza: Yeah. I think like even we've had a participant in our last retreat say, you know, this was a process that I thought I would [00:09:00] feel. It was difficult and I'd feel overwhelmed with, but for some reason my nervous system is even calmer than it is normally. And it is really the power of community. Like I often tell the women, another reason why I believe this is so important to do with other women is because a lot of these women are single, though not all of them. And you know, this is your first step to parenthood, to motherhood, and you know.

  Science and technology are great. They've come so far for us and they're allowing women to, you know, get pregnant older and help women that have low ovarian reserves also, you know, attain motherhood. But we are women. We are the creators of life.

  You know, we push the human race forward and we can't forget that these aren't just clinical appointments where you go in and you leave and you go in and you leave. And that's the first step of

  Michelle: Yes, it's sacred.

  Aliza: It's

  Michelle: more sacred than that.

  Aliza: than that, and I think we are like giving our power away to [00:10:00] just,

  Michelle: It's like we're sacred beings. having a clinical experience, you

  Aliza: And we're getting so excited about the tech that we're operating in the same system that we do everything else in this modern world, like in and out, in and out. Like just operationally, like productivity. How can I optimize, how can I optimize? When, if we can just take a second, invest some time into this process, make it a spiritual process, and you know.

  if you can't do it with a partner, then why not do it with A group of other women?

  Like what's more sacred than that?

  Michelle: A hundred percent. That is so cool. So let's break it down. a couple of things that you were talking about. We're different locations, going out of the country to get treatment. What are some of the things that you've seen or some places that were really good? I mean, I personally hear a lot about Spain.

  I think that their technology is really good. It is less expensive. but I'm sure you've dug into it a lot more. So, so do tell.

  Aliza: I chose Mexico [00:11:00] for a few reasons, and yes, some of the hotspots for fertility treatments are Spain, Greece, the Czech Republic. And of course Mexico. I chose Mexico personally because of its proximity to the US and Canada, which are some of the countries with the highest, costs for fertility treatments.

  So women can still obviously co-work and like still work while they're, while they're down there, if they choose to. I also chose it because of its established reputation in medical tourism. there's a lot of Americans and Canadians that are already very familiar with Mexico and go down there for other treatments just because of the high cost of medical treatment in America, as well as the wait times in Canada.

  they are bilingual. The clinic I chose is, uses, It, it uses amazing technology. Its standards are, very rigorous and up against the European standards, and so their success rates, I looked at the success rates of each clinic as well, and so that's why I chose this specific clinic. [00:12:00] And then we come to like rules and regulations and laws.

  So in Mexico you can actually have closed or open donors, donors, which means that you can get to know your donor, if you choose after 18. as well as they have really strong, You know, they're very open to L-G-B-T-Q couples, as well as single motherhood. And, they also have sex selection.

  So that's something that only is available in the US and in Mexico. So if you want a family plan, you have three boys and you want a girl, or you have three girls want a boy, you can do that in Mexico. And then, And then also our clinic uses the European sperm bank. So that was something I also thought was important in case you wanted a, you were a single mother and you wanted a donor that was like from a different background.

  And then finally, of course, Mexico because of its retreat vibes. You know, we associated as Canadians and, and Americans as, Somewhere we go to like retreat and relax and unplug. And so the warm weather and [00:13:00] things like that. I did consider Spain and Spain does have very affordable treatments. Its standard of care is really great.

  Its regulations are really great. It has, it's laws and regulations for donors are, they only allow closed donors. So that was one thing. You can't choose, you can't have sex selection there either. Although most countries in the world, you can't have that. The last thing was affordability. And so the treatment is affordable in Spain, but everything else isn't.

  And so we have nurses come to the house. We have acupuncture and massage therapy. We, you know, girls are ordering Uber Eats to their house, they're taking taxis. Things to make you feel more comfortable during the process weren't affordable in Spain. And so I wanted to make this whole process a little bit more affordable, a little bit more comfortable, and that was suited for

  Michelle: Yeah. That's so cool. well, Mexico's beautiful, that's for sure. It definitely has retreat vibe. So, so as far as, just describe really what it is like for somebody who's, [00:14:00] thinking about doing it. Like what is the whole process really from, from

  Aliza: Yeah, so we offer, you know, complimentary discovery calls where you meet with me and, we kind of go through. Where you are in egg freezing, what we offer at the fertility co-living from the discovery call, we then, connect you to the medical clinic. You get your testing done,

  Michelle: Hmm

  Aliza: we invite you into our container.

  So once you've. Signed up with us. We guide you through the whole process from start to finish. And we really wanna take the pressure off women. Like there's so many things you're already thinking about. So once you're invited into our container, we guide you through what tests you need to get, which ones you need to do in order, which ones you need to do, like now to decide if egg freezing is, if you're a candidate for egg freezing, and which ones can kind of wait till after you've, you know, already paid your deposit and you're a little bit closer to the retrieval process.

  And then three months prior to the. Actual retreat. We, we have, you [00:15:00] have, in our container. We have two webinars with our doctors. We also have two meeting greets with your cohort. We invite you into the WhatsApp group so that you meet the other women that will be in your retreat. We give you nutritional guidance, we send you podcast recommendations, and nervous system support so that you are preparing your body.

  Fully, and of course supplementation and things like that. So you're preparing your body fully for by three months in advance to the retreat. And that's because, you know, the maturation, the egg maturation cycle is a hundred days prior to retrieval. And so we wanna make sure your, your body the best quality eggs, you know.

  The medical community really focuses on quantity because they don't feel like there's a lot of control over quality. And what we focus on is no matter how many eggs you get, let's try and make sure that they're all of good quality. And how do you do that through? Nutrition, good sleep, increasing positive emotions, acupuncture, blood flow, all of these kind of more, intangible, intangible [00:16:00] aspects.

  And so then after our container, we obviously, you come to the retreat. The retreat is three weeks long. and so the first week is basically, we do, like you introduce to your group, you move in and we introduce you to the clinic and you start your stimulations. And so a day in the retreat might look like.

  In the morning, the nurses come to the co-living, they do the injections for you, or they can guide you on how you do them if you wanna do them yourself. Then the girls make breakfast together or they go out for brunch together. Some of them are working, some of them are not. Some of them are taking a lighter schedule.

  some of them go do like tourist things around Mexico City and the afternoon might be filled with like fertility appointments as our clinic sees you every other, every second day and. or acupuncture. We have red light therapy in house and, massage therapy. Then in the evening, we either have like yoga or sound bath.

  We have movie nights. and then the women usually have dinner together and then, [00:17:00] you know, they, they go to sleep. So the first week is really, move in and injection stimulation start. The women don't really feel anything during this week. It's like a great week. We have like, we have the schedule quite packed with like, things to do and sites to see and you know, we, we get really, we, we kind of, it's a vacation and then the second week is when women start to really feel the, the, like, the effects of the, of the hormone injections.

  Kind of like. Mentally, emotionally and physically, they're a little bit more heavier, a little bit more bloated, and so we recommend a lighter schedule during this time. By the end of the second week, you're going into your retrieval, or by early third week by the, sorry, by the beginning of the third week. Once your retrieval is done, every woman will have four to seven days in our retreat to fully recover. And so that means all retrievals are done before our retreat, long before our retreat ends. And that leaves room for any complications. Any women that wanna take extra time to rest. Or we've had women that, were completely [00:18:00] fine after their retrieval, and it turns into a one we call holiday in Mexico City, where they're going up a hot, hot air balloon over the pyramids.

  And so that's kind of the overview on, the, the container, the prep towards the retreat, and then the retreat itself.

  Michelle: So it sounds like there's like really three major parts. there's one before the three month prep, right? Just where you're doing the testing. So how long, before the actual, retreat where you're in person is that, is is the beginning to

  Aliza: our deadlines to sign up for the retreat are four months in advance, and that's because we really wanna encourage to get the full experience. You are part of that three month prep container. It's crucial to make sure that, you're giving these eggs your best shot, they are the future children of you.

  They're all, it's also a very expensive process, although we can talk about the costs as well. and so that's why we really, encourage women to sign up four months in advance So we can get them started on that three month prep. [00:19:00] Prior to that, women would wanna have their, you know, their blood work done, their ultrasound done, so they can make sure that they are a candidate.

  Have their consult with the medical doctors, that are, that, that can make sure that there's no like, major objections to, to egg freezing for them.

  Michelle: So if that was the case, they wouldn't really be committed, if something wasn't right. Correct. Like, so, and then my other question is, how do they align them? Do they give them birth control pills? Because I know sometimes they'll, they'll control the hormones that way to get

  Aliza: Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, so we do use syncy. We do synco cycle sync through birth control. it is a tricky one with people and I like to be upfront about it and, you know, even I've had my personal. Relationship with birth control. we, but we put them on for 21 days. And there's different birth controls that are recommended to you based on if you have PCOS, if you have [00:20:00] endometriosis, if you have an IUD in and so the doctor will go through u. Who go through that with you, but everybody starts and stops birth control on the same day. Our WhatsApp chat is like, you know, our group WhatsApp chat is like, people are talking like if it, some people it doesn't affect at all because 21 days is quite short and usually side effects happen.

  side effects can happen after that.

  Michelle: Correct. It's, it's, insignificant. I, I agree. I'm, I'm not like a big fan of long-term use for birth control. I've been on it myself. I just know that it can like really impact kind of the hormonal, balance of the body. How, if it's longer, but if it's short, it's, it's really like not. Nothing I would worry about, and I'm very

  Aliza: Yeah. So I mean, it's something I had to do for my cycle, even though I didn't do it in a group. They tend to try to prime you so they can also schedule you, in as well. So it's how we, bring everybody together and then we schedule it so that the women. Are arriving three days [00:21:00] before their period starts, and so this process.

  Michelle: That sounds so interesting. And so it's really, it sounds like, obviously you're, you're also organizing everything for people so that they don't have to feel like they have the headache. You're really making it streamlined. and then you're re bringing all the different aspects of like the whole holistic aspect, the community aspect, things that they can do for their nervous system, like really coming together and, and feeling that support.

  so that's, it's a really cool. Like idea, it's really very

  Aliza: Yeah.

  it is. It's really a one stop shop so that women can kind of sign up with us And then they don't have to think about it again. Because I do feel like with egg freezing, particularly women are like, they tend to procrastinate on it because it's not this immediate problem. the way IVF is, it's like, oh, okay, I, with IVF, it's like, we wanna have this child now, we'll immediately know our with egg freezing, it's.

  That that's a problem that, you know, maybe will be a problem for me. And I have, you know, there's always something [00:22:00] better to spend $20,000 on. So we're trying to make it more accessible, more affordable, and less of a hassle for women to sign on and say, okay, let's do these hard things together.

  Michelle: And the planning process for, if people are working, all they'll really need to do is take three

  Aliza: Yep. And they can, they can still, you know, work while they're there. If they can work remotely. We recommend a lighter schedule, but we'll also recommend. This time that they should really take off.

  And there's a couple days that we will recommend that, and then they get our full retreat schedule a month in advance.

  So if there's things they really wanna participate in, like for example, we visit the Frida Ka Museum or we go to Chipotle Park, or we do different things around the city that are like very, like gentle and egg freezing, friendly, like gonna co.

  Michelle: Yeah, I love that. Like freezing

  Aliza: you know, when I egg froze, my friends were like, do you wanna come out?

  And it's like, no, I don't wanna come out. I'm the middle of this, you know, egg freezing process.

  Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:23:00] yeah. Of

  Aliza: you know, so

  Michelle: It's a lot. Yeah,

  Aliza: that's in nature, you know, like really aligned with this process. And, so we provide those schedules and then they can decide if they can join or not join us.

  It's really as much or as little as you wanna participate in. And each girl has their own room and their own bathroom if they choose. and so, you know, you can retreat as much as you want into your own space.

  Michelle: And how often do you guys plan these?

  Aliza: we launched last year, we did two retreats, and right now our next retreat is, set for September. So September 6th to the 27th. And we are currently, you know, accepting, women into the cohort. we don't have another one planned yet beyond that, so we kind of go as they come right now. but we'll probably be looking at November and then again in January, 2027.

  Michelle: Is there usually a limit, to how many people you

  Aliza: Yes, there is. so September is gonna have eight women in it, and that's just to help keep [00:24:00] the,

  The experience quite intimate. There's also a lot of sharing that happens. So anything beyond, you know, 10 women can. You're not really giving them the space to share fully all the time because it can get quite long, these experiences.

  And we have a retreat facilitator, and she lives in house with all the women. She also picks the women up from their, from their, retrieval and, she's there in case anything, you know, the, the women need anything at any point. We have a really close relationship with our clinic. It's, this isn't like.

  This isn't a sort of a referral with our clinic. This is like a joint partnership where they really believe and put the effort in what we're also building. And So.

  we're very proud to be partnered with F Integral, not just for like. Their clinical excellence, but just for how much they believe in holistic health.

  And so if anything happens, or any woman, like we had a girl that put her medications in the freezer instead of the fridge and you know, they ubered [00:25:00] new medications over to us.

  Michelle: Oh, That's nice.

  Aliza: everyone from the nurse to the CEO on WhatsApp. And that's really nice. as well because you don't have that kind of support when you're just like a number at a clinic.

  You know, maybe somewhere else.

  Michelle: I hear stories all the time. It's it's crazy. Yeah, it's definitely not a very, hands on, like, it feels very, difficult for a lot of people where they, they sort of, don't get the right. Support or, things, actually, a lot of mistakes get made, so I totally hear the whole process could be

  Aliza: Yeah. definitely. I mean, I left my, trigger shot when I froze my eggs in my trunk on a hot day and it was supposed to be in the fridge and I left it there for eight hours and I called the office and, it was like we don't respond to calls after five. And it how do you not, I

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Aliza: So much money for this [00:26:00] process.

  How is 70, not it

  Michelle: it should be. It should be concierge at that point.

  Aliza: It just blows in mind that you're paying so much money for this and then there's so many gaps in care and these are private things. You know, it actually, there's, it just, it's just another reason. Yeah.

  there was just so many parts of this process that needed to be improved.

  For me, honestly, when people ask me like, how did you, it was like, it was so obvious, you know? It was so obvious.

  Michelle: Yeah. That's amazing. And so have you heard any stories? I know it's, it's fairly new, like of people who have maybe done it in the past or, or felt a completely different experience doing this in a group or a better experience or a better outcome with that type of support.

  Aliza: like I'm really, really happy to say that like every single girl that has gone through a retreat loves it. You know, I just got a, from one of our girls, Literally like three days ago. I can forward it to [00:27:00] you 'cause I'm just so proud of it. But she's like crying, you know? She's just like, this experie changed my life.

  Like beyond egg freezing. These women forget they're egg freezing as well, which is amazing because, you know, health, happy eggs are healthy eggs, right? Like we don't want women to be. So honed in on it during the process counting, you know, the, you see those women who are like, I put my results through chat.

  I put, okay, this, this molecule is counting. And it's like, okay, it's great to be informed, but you also just wanna let, once you're in the process, let. Let it be, you know, surrender to it. And so we distract them with like, all sorts of things, fun things, you know? And, you know, you're in the sun, you're with girlfriends and we, we have our November retreat girls planning, a trip to Korea together.

  You know, we, Yeah. we have a

  Michelle: Oh wow.

  Aliza: that'll be coming out so you can actually see the process of how community matters. these women said that they would, I have discovery calls with women that say they would never do [00:28:00] it in any other way other than how we are doing it, which is great. But once you see women go through it and they were like, this process, I can't believe people go through this process alone.

  And this changed my life much, much beyond what I initially started it as. Yeah.

  it's very heartwarming. We're doing much more than just egg freezing, to be honest. And I think that makes me like deeply. Deeply filled with gratitude.

  Michelle: That's so great that that just sounds amazing. It really is something that's so needed. And I'm like, you know, I've been doing this for a while now, like 10 years and I see people go through so much and how much their craving community and really connection and to, to know that like something like this exists, really, I feel like it's so needed.

  So I think that you just, like, you hit the nail on the head with this, I think it's like a really, really amazing idea. So if people are listening, 'cause [00:29:00] I'm sure people are like, wow, this is so cool. Like, I wanna find out more. if people are listening and they wanna learn more, you mentioned that you have a

  Aliza: Yeah, exactly. So, we, on our website or on our Instagram page, you can go directly and sign up for a discovery call.

  All discovery calls are with me. And so we go through just like where they're at, what their feelings are, what their fears are, you know, hesitations of egg freezing, and we see if it's a good fit.

  I believe in giving honest advice. I guide women to the retreat or away from the retreat I give them. All the knowledge I've learned saying like, oh, but you can actually get your medications in America, so maybe this won't make total sense for you. And you know, I really give them honest feedback. So our discovery calls are really the best way to figure out if this is a, a good fit for you.

  something that, would help you in the process. And I wanna mention like, oh,

  Michelle: And

  Aliza: sorry. I wanna mention like I can get, you know, I know. We, this world is referred to as woo woo, you know, in, in some ways, [00:30:00] and I can get pretty woo. I'm sure you can too. But everything in our retreat is backed by science. You know, the literature.

  And we send it, we send it to the women, we send the literature on acupuncture. We send the literature on, you know, cortisol reduction, red light therapy. So when you enter the house, you don't feel like, you don't feel like, Are these things gonna work? You're confident like that MINDBODY connection is there and it knows that they have proven results behind it to improve my, the success of my outcomes.

  so I think that's really important in instilling confidence in the women that they're signing up for something that is actually going to help them.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. People don't wanna, like, I think that when you're going through this journey, you don't wanna waste time, you don't wanna waste money. You wanna know that what you're doing is going to bring you value. So a hundred percent people really wanna have that because it's, you know, there's so much time gets taken from so many.

  Women on this journey, so, [00:31:00] so I could see how that can really put people at ease. so for people who wanna find out more,

  Aliza: So our website is, the fertility co-living dot com and that's the same with our Instagram handle. and they can just directly sign up for a call there. Those are the best ways.

  Michelle: Awesome. And I'll have all of the links on in the episode notes if anybody wants to find 'em there. Aliza, this was such a pleasure. Thank you

  Aliza: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners. You can find me on my website@www.michelleorbit.com.

  You could also reach out to me on Instagram, and I [00:32:00] love getting dms from my listeners. My handle is at the wholesome Lotus Fertility. I thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful [00:33:00] day.

Ep 382 The Spiritual Side of Fertility with Ariane de Bonvoisin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Ariane de Bonvoisin (@arianedebonvoisin), author of Spirit Mama, to explore the deeper connection between the mind, body, and spirit in the fertility journey.

Ariane shares her personal story from corporate success to navigating fertility challenges including miscarriage and IVF, and how it led her to redefine what it means to become a mother. We discuss the hidden emotional patterns like control, perfection, and self-judgment, and how awareness of these can create powerful shifts.

We also dive into reconnecting with the body, trusting your inner voice, and cultivating a relationship with something greater than yourself. This conversation offers a more compassionate, holistic perspective for anyone feeling like something is missing from the conventional fertility approach.

Key Takeaways:

• Fertility is not just physical; emotional and spiritual factors matter.

• Control, perfection, and self-judgment can block natural flow.

• Reconnecting with your body is essential for conception.

• Awareness and self-compassion create powerful internal shifts.

• Your relationship with life influences your fertility journey.

• There are many ways to “mother” beyond physical birth.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  # Video TWF: EP 382 Ariane de Bonvoisin

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Arianne.

  Ariane: Thank you, Michelle. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

  Michelle: Yeah, so excited to have you and, um, I'd love for you to share your origin story. I always love to start with an origin story of how you got to the work that you do. I think that, um, in so many ways we're very much aligned. We got introduced by a good friend of mine, uh, somebody who I really admire, Jessica Orner.

  Um, and I knew that as soon as she said she had somebody fabulous, I was like, she must be really fabulous.

  Ariane: Oh, thank you Jess. Uh, thank you Jess. If you're listening, she's like a little sister to me. Um, so my origin story, where should we start? Um, you know, I feel like I am a very global soul. I was born in the US I have European parents.

  I grew up in Asia and I

  married a South

  Michelle: so cool.

  Ariane: and I married a South African

  and. Two of my [00:01:00] best friends are Australian. So, um, and I have a strange accent as you can hear. I don't know if it's English or you know, American or Australian or South African, but I, I think it's important just 'cause I feel like, um, I've always seen people way beyond. Their nationality or their roots or their origin or their language or their religion. And I think as a child growing up in, you know, pretty much every continent I went looking for what was the same in people

  instead of what was different.

  And I

  went looking for, you know, what makes me relate to someone even though they might not look the same, sound the same. And I think it's been a little bit of a guiding thread through my life, which is where's the humanity? Where is the authenticity? And for me, where is the spirituality? Where we are all way more similar than different and we all come from the same place and we're probably going to the same place. And even though you know that, that similarity, [00:02:00] we, we don't necessarily focus on it. We don't necessarily call it the same word.

  Some of it call it. love consciousness, nature, higher power, God, religion, Jesus, that it kind of all points to sort of more of an inner world that is very similar. So I'd say that was one of the three things of my life. You know, I took a few detours. From, from knowing that.

  truth. Um, I took a detour into, you know, the world of high education.

  I had, I have an MBA from Stanford. I sort of,

  I pursued a life that I thought would make me happy externally. Um, I did 15 years in New York. I ran a venture capital fund. I started a business, I, I sort of climbed the ladder that I thought was gonna make me externally happy. Um, 'cause I forgot about how important the inner world was. And, uh, and I got really high up. And the higher I got, the less happy I became and the

  less fulfilled and the less meaning. And, [00:03:00] and I thought something not quite right here because I've been promised this, uh, this journey of, you know, success and happiness and actually. I feel the opposite. Um, and so began a little bit of the unraveling of, you know, what I'd been told, what my education had told, what the mass consciousness had told me to kind of remember and unlearn things that I thought I should be to be successful or to be a woman in the world, or to do what was expected of me or to please my parents, or, you know, we've all been there. And at sort of early thirties I was like, you know, I'm in the wrong job. I was engaged to the wrong guy, or at least wrong for me. I say

  that very lovingly. Um, and I was in, uh, I was just in the wrong kind of identity, you know,

  and it's been a couple of decades of doing the real work, which is to realize that, you know, your inner world is as important as your outer world.

  It's not. That

  Michelle: If not more.

  Ariane: If Yeah, exactly. If not [00:04:00] more. But

  there's, there's a real need to, to really honor and focus and respect both. And so I think my, my work today, whether it's, you know, with CEOs or founders or people who are going through fertility or relationship issues or whatever it might be, is to become a little bit more of that bridge between the two, which is, you know, how, how do we lead quite a heart centered, spiritual centered. What I call below the neck life where there, there's a lot more going on here, uh, than there is sort of above the neck and, you know, make money and get married and drink wine and have sex

  and, and, you know, change the world and, and be successful. But it's like, how can you have a foot in both worlds? How can you really feel like, you know, both are available and both are important. So today, I, I coach, I write books, I speak,

  I do workshops, um, and I'm trying to find any way possible really to, to serve [00:05:00] my, my fellow human beings, which is really the throughput of where I just started to answer this question.

  Michelle: Yes. And then your work in fertility, kind of

  Ariane: Yes.

  Michelle: in your fertility, how'd that come

  Ariane: Yeah, you know, that's, um, it's uh, both a personal journey and also a journey just realizing what's going on in that world and wanting to sort of. Share, add, contribute in a way where, you know, anyone listening to this or anyone finding a book or a podcast, um, might have a piece of the puzzle that might be missing.

  You know, and I, I really feel it is a piece of the puzzle. I was looking at all the episodes that you've done, and I was

  like, wow, how many pieces of the puzzle.

  Are there and available for people. It's incredible. And, you know, one piece fits in your puzzle. Another piece fits in mine, one's a corner piece.

  So, so my journey on the why I even wanted to write a fertility book. Um, so I, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. Um, I [00:06:00] actually felt my child around me even before I felt my husband in my life. And, uh, so, you know, there was this soul that was like, I'm coming through, I'm coming through. And I was like, where's your dad?

  Is there a dad?

  And so I, uh. I started asking that presence, um, to really show me, you know, who's dad. And, uh, and I asked in some ways the, the baby, the soul to, to put my husband right in front of me. And it happened very quickly,

  uh, much late.

  Michelle: crazy. That's

  Ariane: I, so amazing.

  But when I, when I really called it in, it was very instant.

  And I realized sometimes, you know, we wait for the partner

  and actually the, the child is around you before and can guide you way more than you think. So I started just really listening and tuning into the guidance and, and like turning in a bit more of my inner microphone and, um. I met my husband a little bit later on.

  I met him when I was 38. Um, and you know, I, I didn't feel any, any [00:07:00] rush for children. I just felt a desire for children.

  And so when my son, my son happened pretty much the first time we tried, um, you

  know, which is a different experience. So at 40 I got pregnant pretty much instantly. Had a beautiful pregnancy, natural birth, um, and I felt unbelievably grateful.

  My son is 12 today and not today, but he's. 12 years old. Um, and then we tried for another and, uh, we had a very different experience, um, where for, you know, four or five years we tried for a second child and it did not happen. And I started turning over every possibility from the most alternative to the most traditional and scientific and, uh, I, I. You know, interviewed hundreds of people I interviewed, you know, midwives and spiritual teachers, and IVF specialists and doulas and healers of all kinds [00:08:00] in four different continents,

  not. I didn't really realize that it was not for me. I, I originally thought, you know, what's, what's here, what's in South America?

  What's in Africa? What's in Asia? What's, what's in Native America? You know, where, where, where, where is information that is not yet mainstream

  that maybe needs to be right. You know, I had miscarriages. Uh, we tried IVF, we tried the most alternative things, um, and it didn't work. And it, it helped me go inside and kind of make it mean something where potentially, you know, there are many ways to become a mother. And, uh, and

  I consider, I

  consider this book

  Michelle: so

  Ariane: as.

  Michelle: That

  Ariane: As my, my next birth in some ways, and I realized that, that the journey that I was on was [00:09:00] also for myself. 'cause it helped heal myself from my grief and my feeling that we weren't complete or something was missing, or not enough. It helped me heal it to the point that I can speak about it from a very

  grounded place. But I feel, you know, you can be a mother by birthing a business, a podcast, a book, a baby having pets, a school, a business, a home, a farm. You know, there are many ways to mother and to parent the world and the energy of motherhood is, is so present in some ways, and we all have it going through us. So I thought, you know, there is no way I'm gonna keep all this information for myself. And I just, you know, it took me five years to put this out because. I, I needed to be ready. You know, I, I needed to feel, I'm really ready to share this, and I'm really ready to bring this out in the world. Um, so that's, That's where the book comes from. It looks at everything from, you know, the integration of the practical, the emotional, the [00:10:00] spiritual, the relationship part, if there is one, um, things to try that you've never heard of. Um. And a, a sort of very open-minded approach to fertility and. I, I don't think it is the replacement book of any other book out there. I think it is additive. I think that the right people find it at the right time. It's definitely a word of mouth book that I'm hearing about. Um, I've had women find it and, you know, get pregnant, um, which is, which is my joy.

  It just feels like I'm part of, I'm part of their joy now and instead of having the joy of a second child for me. There might be, you know, so much more joy for so many more people. So that's, uh, that's the story behind the book.

  Michelle: That's amazing. Uh, it's so much, um, so much came through my mind as you were talking. I completely agree. Like I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. Um, I completely agree. Uh, [00:11:00] the way I see it is like second chakra energy and, and that can be embodied spiritually. We can have conceptions of ideas, um, so we can conceive ideas, uh, not just beings, you know, we can conceive and it is literally like giving birth to an idea because you as a channel.

  Can work on so many different levels and

  dimensions. So the physical dimension, of course, that's when you really plant that seed. That seed fertilizes, and it becomes like this physical, uh, manifestation. But then you can also have a conceptual manifestation and creation, and that is the energy of the second chakra.

  And that's why I, I'm a big believer in this whole creativity. You know, it's interesting, so many people are missing out because of this misconception that we have to be born creative. Hello? If you're a human. You are creative.

  You know, the, the fact that like if you have to reroute and go a [00:12:00] different direction, 'cause there's a detour that's being creative, like every small thing that you're doing, every decision you're making throughout the day that's being creative.

  Whether. The idea or the question is, are you creating by default or are you creating consciously? So I think that it's just so cool that you were saying that. And also I thought was really interesting how you said, I have to be ready. Well, isn't that how labor comes on when it's ready? You cannot force, um,

  Ariane: yes. I love that. I

  Michelle: baby to come out and that was your baby.

  Ariane: Yeah.

  and you know, I, I think one of my biggest lessons, and I think it's a lesson for many women is I really was under the fantasy and the illusion that I controlled my life. I had controlled so many parts of my life, and this was the first time that I did not control the outcome. And it reminded me so strongly in some ways that wow. There is something bigger going on, you know, whether we [00:13:00] like it or not. Um, and if I could rest into that more than the controlling mind that, you know, was desperate to get something, have something, you know, there, there was a real shift of like, wow, you know, I'm not in control. And, and there was a relief of that. And there was a sort of, yeah, there was a, a real letting go. And I think, you know, as, as. Women, a lot of very successful women. Control is, is a safety mechanism and it's a go-to strategy, and it's a, you know, it's a, it's associated with drive and discipline and termination and getting what you want, right?

  And so control in that. In some ways it's been so positive for so many things, but fertility and the journey I went on with, you know, wanting the second, it was a, a real like. There are a few programs in myself that I really had to drop. The first one was the control program. The second one was the Perfection Program.

  My [00:14:00] perfect family, is this My Perfect Life? Is this my perfect husband? Is this

  my perfect job? Is this perfection program? Massively had to drop. I had to drop the Superwoman program

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: because I, I, you know, I wouldn't say I was it, but it's like it

  was a little bit of

  Michelle: The you know, you have

  Ariane: it was a bit of the. Badge of, you know, I'm a superwoman and the big one for me, especially, you know, during the harder times, was I had to drop the victim and the poor me. So that's four giant programs, which is, that's part of my life's work. I, I'm a totally different person without control, perfection, superwoman, and victim. So I don't know who I would be if I had still those operating and running my life. I, I'd be a different mother. I'd be a different wife I'd, I'd show up very differently in the world.

  So, in some ways, the challenges helped me see what my programs were that were dominant. And they, they helped me see that the archetypes that I had [00:15:00] stepped into, you know, I, I became a bit of an addict. I became obsessed.

  This was the only thing, right? That's

  what the addict goes. It's the only thing. Instead Of seeing the beauty and like everything else that was around. So I had to drop the addict, you know, I had to drop the judge that was so judgmental of myself, my body, and what I did wrong, and it's like. Do you see? So, I mean, it was, uh, I, I can see it now in retrospect, that, and and I would encourage anyone hearing this to go, wow, what, what's my dominant program? Because, because programs, you know, we are, we are energetic beings. We're, we're we, so. Programs run the energy in the body, you know, and and conception. I is heightened in a non-controlled environment, in a loving environment, not in a judging place, not in a pushing place, not in an ad addictive place. So I, it's one of the first places I go to, which is what's the dominant program [00:16:00] going on? And I've seen it so clearly in myself, you know, that it's easy to have compassion for, you know, what's there in other people. So it was, uh, it, it's been healing. It hasn't been easy. It's been messy. Uh, those programs still show up sometimes to

  bite me. Um, they

  Michelle: practice, right? It's like a lifelong practices. But it's so amazing and I think it's so important that you're bringing this up because it really is like this incredible ability to recognize that

  because we all have it

  just in certain subjects, but we all have that, those kind of programs for whatever it is that we want and don't have.

  And you know, it's kind of like this kind of, uh. The self-judgment, the criticism, the trying to overachieve or trying to achieve this certain goal and that goal can look in like so many different things,

  but the energy with which we approach it is very similar. So even though completely different subject, we're still, we've all been there.

  I mean, whether it's. [00:17:00] A partner trying to make something work that isn't really requited, it's not like exactly like a on both ends. And so it's trying to chase that or trying to find so, and then when you have something and so it's, it's kind of like a energy that we have towards life. But the key thing that you're saying, which I find is so empowering, is that recognition of that.

  So when was it that you felt. That you really like that that switch, that recognition because when you're in the program, it is, um, it feels almost near impossible to even see that you're in it.

  You really become so identified with it.

  Ariane: Yeah, agreed. Um, you know, one of the things that I've done pretty much since my early twenties is I have been very focused on my own personal inner growth. Um, all the things I didn't learn in childhood, all the things I did learn in childhood that I had to earn, [00:18:00] learn in adulthood. So it, it's not easy to do the work alone. Um, you know, as women, we have this thing about, you know, I'm not gonna ask for help, or I'm not going to share, or I'm not going to, you know, get a therapist or a coach or, or, you know, go to a, a conference or, you know, a workshop. I, I was the total opposite. I was eating up. You know, personal development books, spirituality books, like very, very young.

  And they, because I was like, you know, I've been taught so much about the outer world and I still don't quite get it. Um, so I think anyone who, who is able to sort of go, you know, which part of me needs a little bit of love and attention, not fixing, not help, not growth, not a to-do list. Like, you know, throw all of that stuff out.

  Like this is really not about adding to the to-do list. This is about, you know, opening up more to your real and true self. Um, [00:19:00] and even in the book, you know, I sort of, I make it.

  very clear like there's, there's lots of interesting, original, unique, diverse things you've never heard of that you can try that have worked for other people,

  but it's, some of them will have your name on it and some of will be like, that's not me.

  That's not me. So it's more of a, it's more of a journey to know yourself. Than a journey to have a baby or a journey to, you know, understand sort of life. It's more of a, you know, what, what did I forget? Or what have I not focused on? So even though these programs feel like they can be very dominant and running your life, I always say noticing fixes more than fixing.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: So even just hearing this,

  you know, the noticing of, wow, like I'm, I'm an addict, or I'm a judge, or I'm a victim, or I'm, you know, in control, or even just the noticing, it's like, like you're more than [00:20:00] halfway through or the, the level of disapproval you have of yourself. So I know for me, when I upped the self-awareness, when I upped the, the noticing. With a really loving, gentle, compassionate, not like, there you go, look at you again. Take the whip out.

  You know, from a, like, from a wow perspective. Wow. They're, wow. You know, the, the wow in some ways is such a sort of, it's a sweet way of looking at the program. And the program kind of the minute you put some light on it, it's sort of, it already kind of goes, okay, okay. You know, there's a wiser part of you that kind of steps in and kind of gently sort of goes, you know what? That, that's been super helpful up until this time, but it's not really helpful, especially not during a fertility period. Um, so it's, you know, you, you can only learn. Through, through loving yourself.

  You cannot learn through disapproving of yourself. [00:21:00] And so this is not a, here are some sticks to beat myself up with. It's like, wow, what's here for me to see and learn with, with such love and compassion? Because there's a reason I called the book Spirit Mama, um, because to me, you know, the energy of motherhood in some ways has been a little bit separate from the. the. energy of a higher power or the divine feminine or consciousness. It's like, it, it feels like such this practical kind of approach. And I was like, both are so important that we need to kind of bring them back together. And there's so many women I've talked to who, you know, were, are pregnant, have given birth, and they, they say that the experience of being pregnant is the closest they've felt to the divine.

  Right. It is the closest they felt to the something, you know, where they're not in control. You're not in control of being pregnant and what's happening and [00:22:00] giving your kid lungs or eyebrows or bones.

  Michelle: Right.

  Ariane: So the invitation is to start that relationship even before, which is wow. Like what would it be like to be in relationship with? That life universe, even before. Right.

  And I think that's one of the messages in the book, which is that we're all, we're all equally spiritual. It's just some of us have forgotten it. And, and my hope is just to go, wow, what's, what's there for me and, and what makes sense in my language and my beliefs or my religion. Um, and I, I, I feel very strongly that it's a, a big missing piece of, of the fertility puzzle because. If, if it, if it wasn't, you know, IVF clinics would have a lot higher success rate if it really was

  Michelle: Right.

  Ariane: control, control, Physical. physical science, science, um, you know, we, we check genetic, we check test, we spec sperm, we check [00:23:00] thyroid.

  We check, check, check. We would have much higher rates. So, so what is this percentage, which is way more than 50%, which. Us as beautiful human beings have not yet realized is a big part of the puzzle. And this is not to say that fertility clinics aren't amazing, create miracles every single day for couples, but there is a big missing piece that I think as humans we haven't quite looked at. I don't know if it's this, I just kind of go for the hundreds of people I've talked to. It, it was an unlock. It

  was a key. It, It was, It was something important. And I just

  go, if it can help someone,

  I just wanna bring it to them.

  Michelle: No, it really is. I think that that, um, you know, the spiritual, the psychospiritual, the, you know, mindset, how you see things that, when you were talking about the programs, the way I see it, kind of like the visual I had was almost, uh, a bunch [00:24:00] of chains or like, um. Like threads that were chaining, you know, the, the soul and the energy, and I, how I see it from a Chinese medicine perspective is we want that like flow, that energy.

  So when we're having these things kind of suck at our energy or take us away from alignment. That's what it felt like. It was, it felt like sort of chains, you know, in, in that sense.

  And what I saw connected those chains were identifications identity. Um, that's what keeps you locked into that chain, is that identify with, uh, the victim or with a control or whatever it is that you identify with that is, um, that's your power, is because you can choose to identify or you can observe once you observe you.

  Have a separation. When you were talking about that, that's kind of like how I saw it. Um, and then you, then you're free, and then you're open to kind of like that source energy.

  Ariane: That flows through, [00:25:00] you know, we talk about the thyroid because it's like one of the master, master, you know, glands in the body. And I'm sure, as you know, in, in what I've been told is that the thyroid is really the gland of, of self-expression, of creativity, of truth,

  of birthing projects. You know, it's also right in between the head and the heart,

  Michelle: Yes. I always say that. That's

  Ariane: And

  so many people live in the head. And

  this is a mental project to take on and to win and get a gold star and succeed. And sort of, there's so many women who have thyroid issues and I

  kind of go, you don't have a thyroid issue. You have a, you have a self-expression issue, you have a communication issue, you have a living your truth issue.

  You have a, you're in the wrong job issue. You're, you're, you're not loving yourself Issue. You're, you're disconnected from your body issue. It's not a thyroid issue. And the minute you see that, I have seen miracles, I've seen people on thyroid [00:26:00] medication, Hashimoto's in three months, the minute they get that, they're totally clear of medication. So. You know, every gland, every organ, every, everything. And you know,

  I had to learn this. I had to learn this myself, which is, you know, babies are made in the body. They're not made in the mind. And I know that sounds obvious, but as women, we are not in awe, love, magic, and wonder of our incredible female bodies. We're not in. We're not in that we're in. It doesn't work. Or they're annoying or they're fat, or they're old or they don't this, or do you see? So the beginning is just a total love affair with your body. That's, that's like the beginning. It's the beginning of attracting the love of your life. It's the beginning of, of being in a healthy body.

  It's the beginning of a fertility journey. Do you see? So I kind of go to, wow, how, how do you get women back in their bodies? You know? I was in my head living in New York with big jobs for 10 years, [00:27:00]

  and I had to kind of literally, you know, get back into the body because that's where babies are made.

  Michelle: And that's how somatic work, uh, works. I mean, I think we try to control through the mind, you know, it's kind of like we're trying to get at things through the mind, but. Many times when we try to process it, when we go into the sensations of the body, it's a lot more manageable and we can work through so much more.

  Ariane: Yeah. And the body's always talking to you.

  You know, one of my favorite phrases is, uh, is the inner microphone, and we have an inner microphone, and it's been talking to us our whole life, and most of us. Are not listening or we've turned it down to like volume two or one. The good news is you can't turn it off, we've turned it down so much so we're not listening about the food or the relationship or the work or, or even what you wanna buy or, or, you know, the, [00:28:00] your, your gynecologist or the fertility clinic or we're not really listening.

  And I have become obsessed. With listening to the inner microphone, and Sometimes I don't like it. Sometimes it pisses me off sometimes I'm like, it cannot be right.

  Michelle: Sometimes it's inconvenient.

  Ariane: Sometimes I'm like, you've got to be kidding me,

  right? Like my inner microphone was like, you're, you're sleeping with the wrong guy when I was engaged, like, I do

  not want to hear that, right?

  Or you're in the wrong job.

  It's like, this is not your path. And it's very inconvenient when you've spent years

  basically. You're

  like,

  Michelle: takes courage

  Ariane: kidding me, right? But the minute you turn that on, you'll choose the right doctor. You'll choose the right clinic, you'll choose the right partner. You'll choose the right, you know, birthing environment.

  You'll choose the right name for your baby, you'll choose. It's sort of, that's where it starts. It's like I need to get back inside because the body wins all the time. The [00:29:00] body will decide. so it really makes sense that your most important relationship is with your body. It's not with your plan, it's not with the to-do list, it's with your body.

  And that is a lifelong journey for all women, you know, myself included. Um, to, to sort of get back in, in some ways.

  And as you. As you know, in, you know, I, I grew up with acupuncture, you know, as a kid, like my mother would like stick needles in me if I had anything going on age six, seven. I grew up with, you know, the qi and the qi gong and the, like, everything.

  That's what was, how, how we were healed, how we were told that energy works and. In some ways for me it's like, how, how do you connect, you know, the, the western side, the eastern side. Like we're, we all know that we're energy. We all know that our bodies are energy. Science agrees that we're energy, we're, we're vibration, we're frequency. Our thoughts are frequency. Our words are frequency. Like I never ever use the word [00:30:00] infertility. It's very low frequency.

  The body. The body doesn't like that

  Michelle: There's an identification.

  Ariane: Wow. Never.

  Uh, it's like the body goes, what are you talking about? You

  know, uh, I'm doing my process. I'm, I'm in this body. I'm healing this. I'm trying this. But that is a word that vibrates very low. Like no one feels good around that word.

  No one

  Michelle: a block,

  Ariane: exactly. It's

  Michelle: it's a do not enter.

  Ariane: It's a, so that is a word that if I could, I would cancel from people.

  And it's not ignoring reality. It's, it's jumping to

  a, a, a Possibility.

  reality. A

  miracle field reality. A

  magic reality, a wonder reality, A, the

  body changes in half a second reality,

  Michelle: just feels so good to think about, even the words that you're saying feel good.

  Ariane: Yeah, but do you see the We fight for reality. The reality is I'm 40. The reality is I have PCOS. The reality is I've been trying [00:31:00] for two years. The reality, I, I've had a miscarriage. I was like, I, I hear that 'cause people need, but, but I move people out of the reality very quickly to, to, it's not even an another one.

  It's just like what radio station frequency

  songs do you want to be listening to? I.

  Michelle: I completely understand

  Ariane: So I'm obsessed with words, language, beliefs, thoughts, explanations, stories.

  Do you see that's very different than the fact is I'm 40. That's a fact. I have zero, you know, frequency. I don't have a push against whatever it's a fact. But the minute the story comes into it, it's like, oh, you just, it's like a, it's like a weight belt in a scuba diver. It's like, oh, let me pull you back down, even though you want to float back up

  Michelle: It's funny,

  Ariane: yeah.

  Michelle: I had um, I had a, my friend in podcast, um, guest. Roseanne Austin. [00:32:00] She said to me, and it was just, it reminds me because she's like, do you ever notice that when somebody says, um, you need to be realistic? It's never a positive thing that they're talking about. Like,

  Ariane: said, but, but just listen, you know, and people go, the reality is,

  I talk, I talk about this in the book. I was like, there's a whole

  thing about the reality is, and I was like.

  look, the, the reality is not, it's, it's not permanent. It's not personal and it's not pervasive. Right. Three Bs, it's not permanent.

  You can, you can change it

  and lots of people have shown that you can change it.

  It's not personal. It's not just you. You haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't have your name on it and it's not pervasive. It should not take over your whole

  life. So, so I talk about those things 'cause we usually go to one of those things.

  We go to the extreme. Or we make it all about us. Right? And then there's shame and hiding and all of that, which again, the body is like, what are you doing? I don't like those [00:33:00] energies. Get me outta here. Right.

  so, so, yeah. And you know, I say, I say this with so much personal experience

  there, it's,

  Michelle: that that's what makes you a good, uh.

  Ariane: Yeah,

  Michelle: that's probably why you're able to really translate those lessons and because you understand it from the inside out.

  Ariane: Yeah. Yeah, completely. And to be, you know, I think that the, one of the biggest lessons I also got was, was to just be incredibly open-minded about who or what or where, and to just always say. Maybe, and I, I still live my life that way, where I go, maybe there's something amazing in this book.

  Maybe I, I can learn something from this person who is totally opposite to me. So, I, I, you know, the, the being in the, the being in the, maybe is another word for being in the, I wonder. It's just such a great word. I wonder like,

  Michelle: [00:34:00] Yeah, it's that

  Ariane: in the wonder, I wonder how this is gonna unfold. It's, it's like, it becomes more of an adventure than a, than a sort of Yes. No good, bad success failure. This is very divisive. You

  Michelle: It's true. It doesn't work like that. Even with the y the young, you know, they're complete opposite, uh, forces, but they don't go from one to the other. They, they ebb and flow and they move into and turn, and so it's a shift. It's almost like a wave. There's no like hard end,

  you know? It's, it, it moves.

  Ariane: yeah. Same with emotions. You know, fertility is such a highly emotional journey, and I would say all emotions are good.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: I was speaking to someone earlier who was angry and I was like, I love that you're angry. Like I really do. It's so productive. You're not gonna store it in the liver, you're not gonna store it somewhere else.

  You're, it's so productive. And I [00:35:00] was like, let's fully be angry. Especially as women, we've never

  been given permission and. You know, productive anger. It's like the, the body is great with that. It's like you can hold that, you know, even productive grief. So, so all emotions are so welcome on this journey.

  And I feel in some ways, you know, your, your future child is preparing you because babies and children. Highly emotional, the entire field of emotions is available, and so you better feel them first so that you're not overwhelmed by them. So I feel sometimes, like the soul of a baby is, it's kind of, it's helping you even before you conceive and before you, you meet your, your child. Um, and I think, you know, the two, the two emotions that are so dominant right now on the planet are fear and uncertainty.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Ariane: Fertility, it's like a tuning fork. [00:36:00] It's even more fear and it's even more uncertainty. And so we, we need to, we need to not have those tuning forks really ever get around each other because when we are already living in a world that.

  Is not about love and certainty or faith or kindness or, you know, contribution or growth or pick any other emotion, but when we're already bathing in this, every time we turn on our computers, have conversations, walk outside, read the news. When you put that with the other fear and uncertainty around fertility, it just doesn't help.

  And so I, I always encourage people to go well. You know, we, we have a choice like fertility is, there's an intentional choice behind what we let in, who we let in, what we try. But it includes the power of choice of I need to, you know, stay in the frequency or the other side of the river of fear and uncertainty [00:37:00]

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: to, you know, faith and acceptance and love and patience. But it's a real choice, Michelle.

  And it is a hard choice because there are, people are going back and forth, back and

  Michelle: Well, many times people don't think they have a choice. I think that that's what it is. It's that, um, it's that awareness that realizing like really where you're at with it and what the programs are, are making you, or, you know, you're kind of falling into

  or identifying within. It's, it's hard to see unless you really kind of move yourself out of it and then you're observing it with curiosity.

  Ariane: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I love, I love the, the question because it, it's not about, you know, how do I feel less sad, or how do I feel less scared? Those things are, you know, they can, you, you can be, you can have faith and be scared. You can be mad and sad

  and feel joyful. Do you see? And we're not told that, which is it's, it's not like one is better than the other.

  [00:38:00] It's actually the allowance. Is the Right.

  thing.

  It's not the control of the emotion. And, and I mean, you, in your position, you know that, you know, emotions are going through organs all the time. And, and every every organ represents a different emotion. And

  so the part that we get to play is how do we be more human?

  Not, how do we be more perfect? How do we be less emotional? How do we be less scared? I mean, sometimes, you know, crying it out for hours is so beneficial.

  There's nothing weird, there's nothing wrong. It is the most healing thing.

  Michelle: I think that that's what happens is that people don't allow themselves to be immersed in fully into whatever it is. So if you feel really sad, you, you kind of like allow yourself a little bit and then you're like, I shouldn't be sad. You know? There's this judgment and then when you feel really happy, you're like, I shouldn't really feel too happy because what if this.

  And it is just this constant, uh, you know, the mind will constantly convince us, rather, and then what happens [00:39:00] is that those are like forms of stagnation or stagnating thoughts that stop us

  constantly. And, and if we just allow ourselves to fully immerse into the sadness, we're actually going to allow it to move through and release us

  energetically.

  Ariane: You know, and I think as human beings, you know, in different cultures, um, there is a real sense of attunement with nature, attunement with the seasons, attunement with loss, attunement, even with death, attunement, with, you know, aging attunement with the feminine body being revered,

  never being, you know, sort of. Disapproved of,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: um, you know, in cultures in Africa and South America where I, I spoke to a lot of people. I mean, I was blown away by, by what is, what is not in their world in some ways of a lot of what the things that we've been talking about. But the thing that is most common [00:40:00] there is that they are still very aligned with some form of a spiritual divine force.

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Ariane: And, and it is included. It's included in. When they eat, it's included. When they birth, it's included. When they make love, it's included when they have

  ceremonies and it's like, we're, we're, so, it's not that we've, we've, we, we aren't doing it, it's just we're not including it

  Michelle: we're blind to

  Ariane: of, in the journey of motherhood. It's like a, it's

  like, I, I need to kind of choose, you

  Michelle: Yeah. We, it's just not part of, almost

  Ariane: Right. It's like what? Where it's like fish. It's like they don't know they're in the water. It's like, you know, even if you've never considered yourself spiritual, it's like you are, you are in the energy and the environment of something

  we don't need to

  Michelle: um, when you invite it, when you invited and you acknowledge it, you will see it. And I, I see that all the time. And you actually said something that I thought was really interesting in the beginning when [00:41:00] you're talking about like, um, that sort of like that lock and key, that one thing that sort of, uh, unlocks, which is sort of, you know, that spiritual aspect.

  So. I see this at my work, I've noticed it, and I'm starting to see a pattern with the women I work with. Um, I do see mostly women. Sometimes they'll, the husbands will come in, not always, uh, the majority of of people I see are women. And when they get to a place where they start a meditation practice, a spiritual practice, and they also choose, and this is an invitation that they can do to connect with spirit baby.

  I see the lock and I see it on lock. I see things happening. It is crazy. The signs that they get the, um, specific sometimes to numbers, even num, like so, so specific. You can't even describe it away in any kind of formulation. I don't know. Like it's too vast and it's too mystical. There's something [00:42:00] that is way more intelligent than our brains can ever process.

  And so when you start to see that and you start to see that, like I will see. Shift happening for people once they choose to take that path.

  Ariane: Yeah. And the path.

  doesn't have to be weird, or crystals or wearing white or drinking wheatgrass or yoga. Uh, I mean, li this is, these are, they're, they're paths for some people, you don't need to ever do any of those things. It, it is a, it's an orientation towards life. Or, or not being orientated towards life. So we can call it life instead of spirit God consciousness. 'cause you know, everyone has an orientation towards life

  and for some people it's positive. Life's on their side, good things are happening. There's good people. There're lucky, there's magic, there's wonder, there's beauty, there's, there's all of that stuff. And they will, there will be a match for more of that because that is their [00:43:00] relationship to life. there's people who have a very different relationship to life. I'm unlucky. Why does all this stuff happen to me? You know, things are bad, things are scary. We live in an unsafe world, and they will be, and life will go, yeah, you're right on both of them. You will be

  right. And so in some ways the most important decision we need to make, even with before fertility, is like, what is my relationship to life itself? You can call it source, you can call it God, spirit, whatever. But really what is my relationship to life itself? Because then life starts communicating with you to your point. Then you get synchronicities, then you get signs. Then someone talks about something. Then you hear this podcast, then you read a book. Then, then someone tells you. Then do you see it's. It's like life is waiting in some ways to show you that, you know, it, it's a, there's a love affair with life here before a love affair with your baby.

  It's like that, that is, that

  Michelle: of it. It's the whole, uh, yeah. It's like the [00:44:00] whole picture.

  Ariane: it's the unity of it. And I think for me, you know, I will say it is my most important relationship because when I am connected to that. things work. I'm a better wife, I'm a better mother. I'm a better coach. I'm a better writer. I'm a better speaker.

  I'm, it's like, so it is my most important relationship is my relationship to source life, whatever we wanna call it. And I, I say this in an interesting way, which is, you know, all of us pretty much have a cell phone these days, and we have a relationship to our cell phone.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yep.

  Ariane: We do a pretty strong relationship to our cell phone

  first thing in the morning to

  Michelle: about

  Ariane: thing at to last thing at night, right?

  So our primary relationship is to our cell phone.

  It is not to our child if we have one. It is not to our husband or parents or job. Our primary relationship is to our cell phone. Now, what do we do with our cell phone? We charge it every night.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.[00:45:00]

  Ariane: Primary relationship, we charge it. And I say to people. How are you charging yourself up? Like, like, I mean,

  this is way more important

  than your cell phone. So how are you charging yourself up? Is it through music, a bath, a candle, water, relationships, dancing,

  listening, reading, journaling, praying. Meditating.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Ariane: But you must charge yourself up the way you charge yourself. Phone up.

  Michelle: Absolutely.

  Ariane: You must.

  Michelle: Amen to that. I, that couldn't be more true. Like, I mean that's, um, it's absolutely so true, and that's where we were talking about before you can kind of like allow life to dictate how you're gonna be, or you take charge, literally, no pun intended, you take charge and you charge yourself.

  Ariane: Absolutely, and you can take charge of, you know, you can take charge of so many things. I mean, a lot of people are like, you know, well IVF isn't [00:46:00] spiritual, and I was like, wow. I, I mean, to me, I go, IVF is one of the most spiritual things available to us because the conscious choice and intention of wanting a child to that level is one of the most beautiful things that you can bring in. I mean, the, the level of choice and intentionality is probably the strongest it ever it ever is, as opposed to, you know, naturally we hope it happens. Let's see what happens. And I go, you know, you can bless the needles, you can, you can pray, you can put. Angels in the room. You can, you can talk to the belly.

  You can, you can You turn it into your temple. It is not less spiritual. More spiritual, like the whole thing is spiritual.

  Michelle: No, it's true because my first, my very first, um, experience at an IVF transfer doing acupuncture, doing a protocol was [00:47:00] probably one of the most spiritual experiences of my

  Ariane: I love hearing that.

  Wow. Wow.

  Such

  Michelle: there and witness that moment, I was like, this is just a miracle.

  Ariane: miracle. You know, you're, you're around the miracle.

  as opposed to it's slightly invisible and you know, when and where might it happen. I love hearing that story.

  So, you know, it's the, you know, I have a friend who, she tried many cycles and she did a surrogate, and it's like the beauty in the miracle of her relationship with this surrogate mom was extraordinary.

  It

  was extraordinary. It was better than some of the relationships I see between husband and wives.

  Michelle: honestly, there.

  Ariane: So disconnected sometimes.

  Michelle: It could be any way, like, like I think that we get so hung up on like the way things are, but that's not, it's not that, it's, what you're saying is it's really the underlying intention and kind of like the, the magic in the moment, however [00:48:00] that expresses itself.

  Ariane: yeah. And the soul. The soul chooses when and who and how, and even where.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: Like even where, you know, and when you realize that that is the case, there's a, there's a permission to go, huh? Maybe there's a higher intelligence here. Maybe it's not all up to me. Maybe I don't have to do anything and I need to go, wow.

  There is a higher moment of connection with the soul who, you know, has chosen to come through you or, or someone else, but will find you or. That to me is, it's magical when you remember that we're not just talking about a physical journey. I mean, most people believe in the soul, the concept of something, right? And yet the soul is not part of the fertility conversation. And so, you know, I mean, in in the Spirit [00:49:00] Mama book, there's a real conversation with the, the soul that you know is. Coming through and, and where and how, and what's the relationship and what's even the karma between you and that soul, and what's the agreement and what's the script and what's the, you know, I mean, I, I go as, as far open as someone wants to go and you, you know, you might kind of go, wow, that's interesting and, and that's good enough. It doesn't have to be right or what you believe. Even if it's just, wow. You know, I'll consider that even that's an unlock,

  you know.

  Michelle: Amazing. I love that. Um, it's just so cool because we always talk about spirit babies and I love, uh, that you wrote a book called Spirit Mama. I think that's really incredible. And so it sounds like it's really kind of bringing more consciousness into the journey and like really, um. Seeing it step by step, like really observing all of the intricacies and also some of the [00:50:00] blocks that you may be holding that you might not even be realizing is there.

  Ariane: Absolutely. It's exactly, you summarized it beautifully. I, you know, I'm thinking about. You know, I went to this temple in Bhutan a year and a half ago, where it's known as one of the most famous fertility temples in the world. I didn't know about this at the time, and there.

  are more pictures of babies in this fertility temple. Um, and it's in the back of the book if anyone wants to take a trip to Bhutan.

  But there was such beauty and such magic and you know, I was like, maybe someone wants to go to Bhutan, let me suggest that. Or, you know, maybe someone wants to hear how, how women. What, what are the, the, the symbolism of bringing in a child in South Africa, you know, and what they do and, and what they do with the earth and the mountain energy and because there's a Mother Earth, right?

  And Cape Town is known as the mother city

  and I mean, there's so much wisdom around. [00:51:00] The connection to the earth and nature and the ground and the fertility of the, the, you know, the foods we're eating and the water. And it's like, I, I, it just makes so much sense. It's not even

  spiritual. It just makes so much sense. How are we not in connection with Mother Earth when we're going through a fertility journey to become a mother? Most people are not connected at all, especially if we're in a city.

  Michelle: Even grounding, um, the, you know, there's so much research on how it lowers infl inflammation and helps the circadian rhythm. It really supports fertility. I tell all my patients and clients like, you gotta earth, you gotta put your feet on the earth. It's really important to do that.

  And it has health benefits.

  It really supports your body and supports fertility.

  Ariane: yeah, absolutely. And the same, you know, get around pets.

  I mean,

  Michelle: Oh yeah. That love that oxytocin.

  Ariane: It's like, oh my God. And you know, we, we, we have a beautiful golden retriever [00:52:00] called Waffle. And, you know, when Waffle came into the family, it, it, I mean, it really felt like, wow, here's a soul

  that came into our family

  Michelle: they pick you too.

  Ariane: He totally picked us in a different way, and it's like, you know, he, he's like my, my brother and him, my brother, my, my dog and my son are like brothers.

  Like it's a, it's an amazing soul connection, right? There's

  an energy that's come into the family.

  You can bring it in before, during, after.

  Michelle: true.

  Ariane: Do you see? It's like none of these things are scary, spiritual.

  I've just put them under the umbrella of we need to remember our connection to a lot of other things that will hold and support the life journey, the

  fertility journey, the relationship journey, which is a whole other thing. The birthing journey, the

  pregnancy

  Michelle: Everything matters and nothing is random.

  Ariane: Exactly.

  Michelle: Yeah. That's [00:53:00] amazing. So, so how, how do you work with people now? Um, I know you do a lot of coaching and then how can people find you?

  Ariane: Yeah, so, you?

  know, it's my full, very complicated French name,

  Arian de. But that's my, that's my website where everything is on there from, um, how to work with me there. There's a specific website that's dedicated to the book called Spirit Mama book.com.

  It's very simple. Um, it's got, you know, a few chapters that people can read just to get comfortable with it.

  It's got the table of content so you can get a sense for what's there and. If it, if it resonates. Um, we also have a, what I call the Spirit Mama Manifesto that we are giving away for free,

  which, um, you know, they're just, they're just, um, phrases and little reminders of just what's true. And sometimes one of those phrases is just like, oh, I really needed to

  hear that.

  Or, that's the one I need to focus on for the next month because I've totally [00:54:00] forgotten it. Or that one has my name on it. So that, that is avail. It's available on the website, spirit mama book.com. And then of course, Instagram. You know, both, I think the, the, uh, the manifesto is on Spirit Mama Official, which is the Instagram handle.

  And then I'm, I'm on there too. In a different way. So the fertility sort of conversation is a bit more on Spirit Mama Official. Um. My, my biggest hope is just to feel like if, if there's something in this book that can help someone, it's wonderful, and if It.

  doesn't help you, maybe it'll help someone you know that's going through it. Um, like I just feel we're all, we're all so in this together that if there's a way that you know, you can support someone or you know, who can support someone.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure.

  Ariane: It's like a snowball effect. So I do one-on-one. Um, my one-on-ones are a little bit more broad than just fertility coaching. 'cause to me,

  I don't [00:55:00] like splitting people up just in fertility and work or,

  Michelle: But it all matters.

  Ariane: it's like, It's like who you are at work.

  Who you are at work shows up at home, who you're at home, shows up in your relationship, who you're at work shows up in the IVF clinic.

  So, you know, it's not, I would never call myself a fertility coach. I would call myself a, a whole life coach

  and if fertility is the doorway that we're really gonna go through, don't be surprised if I prod in a few other places that just need a bit more love and attention. Um. And then I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing whatever work I get called, I get called to do talks and workshops and,

  Michelle: I love that.

  Ariane: you know, it's sort of, I've, I've sort of put my hand up and said, okay, use me,

  show me the way.

  Use me, like pick, pick

  me, basically. And I just, in some ways, I wait for a little bit of the guidance.

  I'm not. Kind of pushing it. I just kind of go, I'm gonna be placed in the right [00:56:00] way with the right people,

  with you. You know, I reconnected with Jess, I've known her for 20 plus years.

  Michelle: Oh, wow.

  Ariane: She

  Michelle: an amazing person.

  Ariane: She stayed with me in New York. She was like a bit of my baby sister and,

  Michelle: Oh

  Ariane: and it's, you know, it's just been to witness people's journey,

  you know, her journey in, you know, becoming a mother and it's. It's just, it's wonderful. Everyone has, everyone has sort of a, a, A story that is, that's got miracles in it and that's got lessons in it and faith in it, and, and we need to share it. We need to share more of those

  to realize how, how similar we are, how human we are, how tough some of our journeys have been. Oh my

  Michelle: And it gives hope. I think a lot of people, um, really, like there's so much power in stories. Um, there's so much hope in stories. So I think that that's one of the things that I see a lot with my patients, with my, uh, group, you know, if they're talking to each other and I I, that that [00:57:00] community that happens is so powerful because when they hear each other's stories and they relate and.

  It's incredibly, um, unifying and, and strengthening.

  Ariane: Yeah, Michelle, it sounds like you do amazing things. I'm

  excited

  Michelle: love, I love this work. It's so beautiful. I just love this work. It's just, uh, it's really like the best, they, they always say like, uh, worst club best members because, um, for the fertility journey, because, um, the people are just the most amazing people like in this community. It's just incredible people like,

  and, um, so loving, so like, just.

  Smart, like the smartest people ever. They know like so much about it, even more than sometimes their doctors. I mean, not to say more, but they'll think about tests that, that, you know, other people should be thinking about, but they're just super, super, super sharp.

  Um,

  Ariane: yeah, it's like the, the awe and the, you know, I, I see, I see the humanity in women who [00:58:00] are, who are there, and it's like, oh, there's some of the most beautiful inside and out,

  you know, authentic and

  Michelle: And they support each other so beautifully. Like sisterhood? Yeah.

  Ariane: so true.

  Michelle: Amazing. So awesome. So I will have all of your links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find them. Um, so this way, um, there's no confusion. You know exactly how to find everything. Um, your, your book sounds incredible. Um, I love it.

  It's just such a different perspective and I feel like it's such a reframe. It really is a reframe to look at things from a more broader, um, more spiritually based conscious perspective. So I.

  Ariane: I think it's like, yeah, it's like, it's like taking the elevator and pushing the button up. Like instead of seeing it.

  from the basement or the ground floor or the first floor or the

  second floor, it's like, go to the penthouse

  and let's see, and let's see what it looks

  Michelle: Bird's eye view.

  Ariane: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  It's a little bit of

  that and you know, every level counts, but it's like, let's look at all of that from [00:59:00] a different and a

  higher perspective. I like the way you've said that.

  Michelle: Big picture. Yeah. Amazing. So thank you so much, Arianne. This was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming.

  Ariane: Thanks for all the, the great questions and the, the, you know, the positivity and the hope and the, I can feel it kind of anyone who's lucky enough to be around you or listen to this. It's

  like you, you're already so much in that higher frequency, and I think you know it. Takes a few people to sort of go, oh, I, I, I wanna reach that.

  So I really honor who

  you.

  are

  Michelle: about

  Ariane: and your work. It's like, it's

  Michelle: Thank you.

  Ariane: thank you. Michelle.

  [01:00:00]

Ep 381 The TTC Story You’ll Want to Hear on a Hard Day

In this deeply moving episode, I sit down with a former client to share her powerful trying-to-conceive journey — one that began with endometriosis, frustration, and the quiet fear that her body was “failing” her.

For nearly two years, she did everything “right.” She saw specialists, monitored cysts, adjusted her diet, optimized her lifestyle, and pushed herself to stay positive. But behind the structure and to-do lists was a nervous system under pressure and a heart carrying more than it should.

In this conversation, she opens up about the emotional breaking point that changed everything — the moment she shifted from “What’s wrong with me?” to “What do you need from me?” We talk about boundaries, reconnecting with joy, meditation, surrender, and the unexpected spiritual signs that preceded her pregnancy — including vivid dreams, intuitive moments, and a powerful final act of letting go.

This episode is a reminder that fertility is not just physical. It is relational. It is emotional. It is deeply personal. And sometimes, the shift that changes everything isn’t another supplement or protocol — it’s a transformation in how we relate to ourselves.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed, behind, exhausted, or like you’re carrying this alone, this story will meet you exactly where you are.

You are not broken.

And you do not have to walk this journey alone.

Key Takeaways:

• Fertility journeys often involve emotional highs and lows, and learning to shift from self-blame to self-compassion can be a powerful turning point.

• Nervous system support through practices like meditation, boundaries, and reconnecting with joy can play a meaningful role in supporting fertility.

• Lifestyle changes such as nutrition, stress reduction, sunlight, and movement can help create a more supportive environment for conception.

• Letting go of control and embracing surrender can open the door to deeper trust in the body and the fertility process.

• Many women experience intuitive or spiritual moments on their fertility journey, reminding them they are not alone in the process.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

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Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 381 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today's episode is one I know so many of you will hold close on the harder days. I'm sitting down with Vanessa, a member of my community who shares her fertility journey with so much honesty, heart, and depth. She opens up about navigating endometriosis, the emotional ups and downs that can make you question your body and yourself.

  And the moment her inner language shifted from my body is failing me. To, what do you need from me? That shift changed everything. We also talk about the practical pieces that supported her journey from lifestyle changes and boundaries at work, to reconnecting with joy through tennis, to building a meditation practice that actually worked for her real life.

  And then there are the signs, the intuitive moments, the spirit baby connection, the lady bugs. The dream her mom had and the powerful [00:01:00] surrender that became a portal into a whole new season. If you've ever felt alone, ashamed, or like you're doing everything and it's still not working, this conversation will remind you that you are not broken.

  You're in process, and you don't have to walk it alone. So stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Vanessa. I'm so excited to have you. I am so excited for you to share your incredibly inspiring story and journey. so as we're getting started, I'd love for you to share, as much as you're comfortable [00:02:00] sharing about your journey. 'cause one of the things that I really love about it is the whole, Fact that you really connected with a spirit baby before and you had some pretty amazing things happen. so I found your story to be incredibly inspiring and I know that a lot of people hearing it are gonna feel the same. So welcome.

  Vanessa - 2: yes. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to sit down and kind of recap our journey together and like you said, anything that could help someone else going through this, I would love to do that and share. So let's do that.

  Michelle: Yes. so one of the things that I found so inspiring about your story was really, not just like we're gonna talk about really everything, but, the fact that you had really very significant signs right before your pregnancy. and then just kind of by the way, one of the women in the group, was actually, I don't know if you know this, but it was very inspired by your story.

  and really everything that happened also like your, [00:03:00] way of healing yourself with meditation and some of the things, that you've been doing, really, which first of all was so amazing. because I often suggest this to a lot of people, but not everybody takes it in, embodies it the way you did.

  but of course it took you time to get into new habits and everything. So I know it's a long journey, but if you can kind of like, Talk about really your story and how you got to the place that you're at now.

  Vanessa - 2: So I was introduced to you, through a very good friend. I think at one point you called her, like we had a Soul sister connection. So, she introduced me to youth after her journey and I immediately made an appointment. I remember it was in October and October of like the previous year.

  So think of 20. Four? Possibly.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Vanessa - 2: Possibly. And 'cause I had all my notes of our first conversation and I remember, I told you like, this is where I'm at. This is my goal. I'm trying to get pregnant. I had seen, A few [00:04:00] doctors at that point, besides my regular ob, I had gone to do testing for endometriosis since I was diagnosed in my early thirties.

  Even though I had symptoms for quite some time, I wasn't the type of patient that it would immediately dictate like, this is endo. But I did have a few complaints and I actually ended up switching doctors and my current doctor immediately knew, Hey, I think you have this. So we did the proper. Testing to diagnose.

  And I knew that going into my journey and, when you and I met, I, I told you, you know, this is what we found. I was told, you know, I might have difficulty getting pregnant. At that point. I had actually done acupuncture for other reasons, in including fertility, but for other reasons. Like for stressand I had messed up my neck as well, so I had already had a good relationship with acupuncture, but not for what I was trying to accomplish at this time.

  So we met, we talked and I immediately started implementing like the diet changes you had told me about, [00:05:00] things like that.and it took us some time. I know you said you always recommend like meditation and certain things that you always guide us to. It took me a little bit.

  I know every time we would talk you'd be like, are you meditating? And I was like, I'm working on it. I think that was the hardest part for me, and it was just the way my mind worked. It was very hard to quiet my thoughts. That was one of the most challenging things, doing everything else that we talked about, like diet change.

  I was like, no problem. Very type A I made my list like, okay, we're gonna swap this out, do this. you know, exercise was always a part of my life, so that wasn't an issue. But, all the other things that you told me to do were easy. The meditation was the hardest part. And when I knew when we were gonna have this conversation.

  I'll get more into detail as we continue the conversation, but there was something that tied into that, that finally made me understand why you guided me and you kept like reminding me to do it. But, I think, you know, in my journey, and I think when you're listening to this, I know it [00:06:00] resonates with many that, there's ups and downs.

  Like, there's moments you feel really motivated. You're like, let's do this. Yeah, and then there's other times where you're sad and you feel unmotivated and that's totally normal. we definitely went through that. husband and myself. You know, he went and made changes as well to his lifestyle.

  I know we had talked about like, he worked night shifts. He even switched to day shifts at some point he thought like, what if that's the, you know, contributing factor to why we're not getting pregnant? So there was a lot put in from both of us. Definitely more from my side. but yeah, that kind of summarizes my journey a little bit,

  Michelle: of course I remember all the little details, so I'll kind of, bring up. so talk about actually the chocolate cyst.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes. So, when I did the diagnostic testing for the endo, I had always complained about this really sharp pain on my left ovary, particularly around ovulation. And, I was told you it's like a little cyst, it'll go away. [00:07:00] But two years went by and it didn't go away, so I kept insisting, I switched doctors. And the moment my current doctor saw it, she said 50 50, I think that's endometriosis. And she sent me to a specialist to test even further. It ended up being a little chocolate cyst and it's funny that was really remarkable occurrence with that little chocolate cysts. So it kept growing over the years, little by little and right when we started having our group calls.

  I had gone for my regular testing and they said,

  Michelle: you remember the sizes?

  Vanessa - 2: I think I always get the measurements wrong, but it was like a 3.1 millimeter, really tiny.

  Michelle: afterwards it grew.

  Vanessa - 2: it had, at its peak, it was about 3.1. because I remember I was sad at that point. it went from like a two something to a 3.1. I remember feeling really sad because I'm [00:08:00] like, oh, this is what they talked about. You know, and this is what we see on the outside, but we don't know how it's affecting the ovary and the eggs within, which was always the concern that I would have a good egg count, but the quality would be compromised. So at the end, when I got the latest testing, right when we started our calls, I would say this is like early April of last year.

  it had dipped down to like a one point something, so I remember sitting in the doctor's office and she said, this is wonderful news. You know, it went down, we can see it here, and this is great. Just continue doing what you're doing. And I was like, this is awesome. I know what I'm doing. you know, I'm doing everything Michelle told me to do.

  This is what I'm doing. I really focused on like our protocol. So it was great that. had reduced that much. 'cause it had never done something like that. It had always grown a little bit.

  Michelle: So, I'm not gonna mention her name, but Jay, who was on our call, had a very [00:09:00] similar situation as you and she said, just in our recent call, that she was really inspired by her story.

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: And she was like, you know, the fact that you also started meditating. Okay, so I'm gonna get to that.

  Which one thing I love about your story is about the realism aspect of it and how you're saying that it took a while for you to get into the meditation that it was the hardest. Because it is, I often work with people on, and I'm always gentle about it. I just constantly ask them, are you meditating?

  Every time I speak to them, whether it's like online or in person. I'm always asking that question. I'm very gentle about it. 'cause I'm like, okay, you know, we'll get there. And, because the point is, you're such a great example of that, of somebody who ended up getting into that.

  But it took a little while and your story, I feel like is something that a lot of people relate to. It's not something that happens overnight. It's sometimes you need a couple of months to just think about meditating until it [00:10:00] starts to become something that you're curious about and you start to try here and there until it starts to become something that you start to feel the benefits of.

  So I thought that was a really. Cool. Part of your story, because I do feel like once you started to do that, you started to get more in tune with downloads your intuition. correct me if I'm wrong, that's how I remember it. so talk about that.

  Vanessa - 2: So I always had. let's call it intuition. A little bit of intuition that you and I would always chat about, ever since I was little. But what I ended up, you would always gently bring it up, and I love that about you. It was like a gentle reminder of like, Hey, this would be nice for you to incorporate if you can.

  And I think what I had to ask myself was, how does this look for me? Because I was like, where do I start? What does this look like for me? Is it in the morning? Is it in the evening? Is it a few minutes when you're in the shower by yourself? And it's like, no one's bothering you, right? So I had to kind of [00:11:00] accommodate that and define what that looked for like for me in my life.

  Once I figured that out, then it was easier. Then it was creating the boundary in the space, like making an appointment with myself where I would not get interrupted because I remember telling you like, I'll sit down and something happens and I always get interrupted. creating that space for myself and then letting, my husband know, you know, if I need you to entertain the dog for a little bit, just so if I'm sitting by the window looking out, getting sunshine to meditate and he comes over, sometimes it's fine, but sometimes, like on the days that I was really sad, I just need a minute.

  Things like that were, I created, the space for myself helped. And once I started doing that, I would say it was over a couple months, the last couple months, before I got pregnant, things started to flow better. Things were a bit more clear. There was one last step after the meditation, which one?

  We'll get there. I'll tell you. I do clearly remember this. and I felt that [00:12:00] really had an important part in the process, but. The meditation opened the gateway to getting there. There's one last step for me. There's one last step, but the meditation allowed me to get there.

  Michelle: Amazing. And I remember another thing that you did, which I thought was really, really powerful was create boundaries. And you started to do that at work and you started to really prioritize your self care and also prioritize how you were feeling. Like really tuning in with yourself when you knew, this is it, this is too much for me.

  Whether it's at work or being around people that, were really nice, but just we were too much energy for you at the time. So, talk about that. 'cause all of these things are really like, I feel like are so relatable to so many people on the journey right now.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes, we had a really good support system at work. There were a lot of girls going through similar situations that we just don't get used to talking about it. Or sometimes there's shame [00:13:00] around it because, for lack of a better word, you feel like you're failing. So, luckily we had a really good friendships at work that when we sat down to talk about it, it was helpful.

  But in terms of Based on what I do, it's very client demanding. And the clients, if you don't set boundaries, they do try to sometimes contact you via your cell phone and like, you know, sometimes it's 8:00 PM and they need something. So it was important for me for this season to create a little bit more of a boundary and be like, this isn't an emergency.

  Like I will definitely get to you tomorrow. So that helped me in terms of work. Coming home and cooking. I missed cooking. it was something that I really liked to do. And another important thing that I did, I would say four months before I got pregnant, 'cause that's how I kind of remember it in phases of like I did a little bit more and then a little bit more.

  As the months got closer,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 2: I really realized, after seeing you, we would see each other pretty often. That, I wasn't doing the things that made me happy.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 2: [00:14:00] one time leaving your office and it's drive back to my house, and I was coming over to the causeway and I was like, I'm not doing things that make me happy.

  I'm doing everything that needs to be done, but that doesn't mean I'm doing things that make me happy. So it's like, what makes you feel like a kid again? I remember having this conversation with myself, so I reached back out to my tennis coach and I started playing tennis again. So every Saturday morning and my husband would work on weekends, so I would just take off and go play with them.

  it was one-on-one sessions, and it was my same coaches, so it took me back to like my twenties, when my husband and I had reconnected and we were just like kind of not even dating yet. And it was that phase in my life and I felt so happy. I remember driving over there. I felt happy. I remember feeling super happy on the way home, things like that.

  that I really loved. And I remember someone told me like, you always talk about tennis span. When was the last time you played? And I'm like, you're absolutely right. I have not played in years and that's a [00:15:00] problem. So we're gonna fix it. So I started doing things like that of like, what makes me happy?

  'cause I was doing everything in a type A personality way. Like everything on the list, we're checking everything, but what am I doing for myself? I realized that I just internally, I wasn't, and my husband is very good at that. My husband has always been the type of person to have really good boundaries.

  He knows his limits, but he's always continued to do things that make him happy in terms of like, he gets his one hour workout in, he'll do like baseball leagues and he baseball's a big part of his life when he was a kid and I would hear him talk about it and I'm like, I don't have anything like that.

  Not anymore. So I definitely put an effort to correcting that.

  Michelle: Well, that's incredibly important. I think a lot of people shelve all the things that bring them joy because they feel like, until I get this goal accomplished, I can't afford to enjoy myself. But you almost can't afford to not enjoy yourself if you wanna get that goal, [00:16:00] because I do. Personally feel like it's good for your fertility health to do things that bring you joy, to really connect with your heart. and I remember actually a key thing, well, a couple things You had to mention that you were afraid to exercise 'cause you thought exercising too much would be harmful for fertility

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: Remember mentioning it depends on your body type because sometimes, certain bodies can handle it if it gives you energy.

  I was like, does it give you energy? And you said yes. And I'm like, well, then it's not depleting you, you know? and that was something that you also increased or maybe it was a part of tennis. But I remember another thing that I found really profound is that. There was a point in your journey and, I love talking to you because it just shows people like your story, that it's not a perfect journey and even what you were doing, nothing's perfect.

  you're kind of figuring things out. It's not like you're hitting all the points and doing everything like exactly. Right. You know, the way, [00:17:00] quote unquote, there's no such thing. So it's a journey of self-discovery. And I think a big part of it is that, and part of it also is your relationship with yourself because there was a point when you were talking about the frustrating points and the points where you're hitting walls, there was a point where you had mentioned something that really struck me.

  And you said that there was a moment that you said to your body, you're failing me.

  Vanessa - 2: Oh yeah, I

  Michelle: That

  Vanessa - 2: that a lot.

  Michelle: I did. that's what I'm saying, like there were the ups and the downs. 'cause there were moments where like coming back from tennis, I felt like I could fly as like a kid again. It was awesome. I'd get a Popsicle on the way home, like it was great. And then there were those moments where it was just me and myself and it's like. I'm sure if you're listening to this and you've been through, it's like that time of the month comes, you get your period and you feel like you know, my body has failed. What we're trying to do all over again, like, here we go another month, you know, another month wasted. What did we do wrong? What can we do?

  Vanessa - 2: Right? [00:18:00] And then you're also feeling bad because, you just got your period and there's that whole hormonal change. So I remember feeling that, Struggling with that personally. 'cause I was just not used to my body failing me in that way. Not to say that I hadn't had other physical challenges, like I was born with atrial flutter, so I would go to my cardiologist like twice a year.

  I was medicated. So I was very in tune with my body can do and cannot do, from a very early age. But this was a whole nother rodeo. You know, it wasn't. Cardiac, it was something else where it's like, how are we navigating this? And like, why do I feel like such a failure?

  and I'm surewe had ruled out that it wasn't my husband. the contributing factor really seemed to point to me because of the endometriosis is what we all assumed. So, and based on the testing. So I also felt like I was failing him. and he was always very kind about it. He never, ever said anything.[00:19:00]

  To that nature. But I know that he would see me struggle and feel like, you know, like, it's okay. It's totally fine. Like, we'll just keep trying. We're gonna keep doing what we're doing. But you feel like your body's feeling not only you, but everyone around you.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a really difficult. Complex state of being, because there's so many aspects to the psychological aspect of how it affects people going through it. Because I think as humans, we always want to assign meaning to events or things that happen, and it's kind of our nature. And sometimes we can go ahead and assign those meanings, and those meanings can sometimes in our mind equate to like, oh, something's wrong.

  Something's not right with me. what I found really interesting about your journey is that you actually came around from that and you came around, [00:20:00] I think it was through the meditation, maybe doing things that made you more happy. You came around to a better relationship with your body.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes, that definitely improved because I realized that it wasn't so much Like in the fail aspect, it was like, okay, you need something else from me. So the conversation internally with myself became, what do you need from me? What has to be adjusted and not fixed? I don't like to say fixed because there's nothing wrong or broken.

  It was

  Michelle: I love that.

  Vanessa - 2: yeah, I was like, I'm not broken. And there's nothing that necessarily needs to be fixed. We're just not hitting the goal right now. But what's the minor adjustment? It's like when you throw a bot in a basket, it's not broken. You just, okay. The minor adjustment just to make it into that basket.

  So when I would meditate or like when I would have that moment alone in the shower and I'm just like by myself and I'm thi, I remember looking up into the ceiling and just thinking, okay, what else do you need from me? [00:21:00] You know, are you happy? Do you feel good? do we feel healthy and kind of ask myself I mean it could be food.

  It's like, okay, well you know, we haven't eaten this since I was a kid. Let's just get that tomorrow. Let's have that for lunch tomorrow. Or I remember you had also suggested I get more sun. I realized how little I was doing that. So we would sit outside. And get sun more. And I would take those moments also to be like, okay, well what do we wanna do today?

  being a person that plans a lot, someone once taught me this, it's like, you can wake up and plan for everything on the weekend, right? When you get those days to yourself and be like, I have to do this and force it. Or you wake up and ask yourself, what do we wanna do today? And I realized my mom always said this, that sometimes forcing, like you'll know in life when you're forcing something and it's just. It takes so much more energy to do one thing forcefully than if [00:22:00] sometimes you just go with the flow and sometimes that flow doesn't go the way you want it to or at the pace or timing of it. So I had to learn to kind of let go. I'm gonna say let go, 'cause I'm sure you can call it many different things, but kind of go with the flow more and not try to force the agenda because we needed to take a step back.

  We, me, myself, and I. And figure out What else is it that you need from me? Is it nutrition based? Is it less stress? Is it, you know, what is it?

  Michelle: It's so interesting that you say that. First of all, I think that that is incredibly profound and, insightful of you to look at it that way. And it's actually, you articulated something that I think a lot of people go through. I see it. So much in the women that I've worked with, there are phases and some of the phases in the beginning were fighting, you know, it's all of us, me included, you know, for many different parts of my life it's kind of like insert subject.

  Same [00:23:00] relationship though. It doesn't have to be necessarily fertility could be other things, but it's whenever we want something like really, really bad something in our life.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes.

  Michelle: Whatever that is. And at first we fight it, you know, it's this relationship or kind of like journey that you have with that relationship until you finally, or you're kind of like higher self realizes, ugh, I just can't keep going like

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: exhausting me. And then there is a little bit of this surrender and sometimes in between, kind of like sandwiched in, it could be a little bit of, Apathy, I just don't care anymore. I'm exhaust like I, I'm done. Kind of like that kind of thing. But then it shifts into kind of like, wait, maybe I can re do this.

  Like, it could be more of a relationship. And then you start to work with, it's kind of like you're,working in tandem with the circumstance. There's a relationship, and with that relationship there's this connection. So the resistance, you're actually [00:24:00] working against. What is, versus you get to this other estate, and I, I see this, I see this over and over again on so many journeys that I get to witness, is that you get to this place of having that relationship with the circumstance and that circumstance being really connected to a divine something.

  And I wanna talk about that. 'cause for you, I was just blown away by some of the signs that you got. From the spirit baby, and that this includes your mom. Your mom felt her. so I wanna talk about all of it. Like first of all, I wanna talk about the steps before that. What do you think got you to, I mean, I know that you've always been intuitive, but what do you think got you to the place where you really started to make that connection?

  'cause I feel like it, it almost seemed like there was a point of sort of separation where you were just focusing on like The to-dos, you know, in the beginning and then like, what do I need to do? Which I personally think is not a bad thing. It's actually part of the [00:25:00] process. I feel like that's one, layer that you need or step that you need to go through in order to get to this other part.

  So what were the steps? What were the things that actually got you where you think that both your mom and you started to make that connection? Spiritually speaking.

  Vanessa - 2: Yeah, that's kind of my favorite part because. My husband always struggled to understand it, but my mom and I were definitely aligned. so the steps before, I think once that intuition was always like it was something I couldn't force. It definitely just came when it came and I always welcomed. It's always happening in an open heart for it.

  I think it's something you can't necessarily go looking for, but it will find you. I always thought about it that way. once I started doing more of the things that made me happy, I think it released the reins on the structured part of the to-do I always see the to-do is it's [00:26:00] very structured and then the intuition is more free.

  You can't add structure to that. You just kind of let it find you. And once I started doing everything. and gave myself the boundary, the space to have moments to myself and I'll give you an example. When I remember the first time that I felt or had a sign, we would always talk about it. And I remember telling you in the office, I was like, I kind of felt, started feeling like a female presence, right?

  No signs or anything like that. I just felt like something very, like bubbly and feminine kind of following me, for lack of a better term. And I remember telling you about it, early on and you're like, okay, that's a good sign. All right, let's know, welcome it. Right? and I always welcomed it, but it was one day I was in my backyard and I remember I was like, okay, I'm gonna go get some, like Michelle told me I was in.

  The dog was out with my husband, like in another [00:27:00] corner. I was like in a corner by myself and I was up against the hedge and I was fixing this branch, like I had extended my hands and I was fixing this branch. I was like, out of order, right? It's my type A personality, like one little corner's out of order. And when I felt something in my hand and when I looked down, I was covered in ladybugs. It was something so odd. 'cause normally you'll see like one or two ladybugs, but when I tell you there's about 10 of them. And I looked at my both hands and I'm like, the only way I can describe, it's like I felt surrounded at that moment by this one thing that I kept feeling, which was this feminine energy.

  And it's like, of course a ladybug. So like dainty and I love red. I've done dashes of red throughout like our engagement session and our wedding, and it's very much something. His first car was like a red truck, and red was always like, synonymous color in our relationship. And I'm like, of course, like a little lady bug and it's red and my hands were just covered.

  and I remember telling him, and I'm like, look at this. And he kinda was like, oh, that's kind of [00:28:00] funny. And, like odd so many of them at a time and I just let it go. But, I love the fact you brought up my mom because I was definitely gonna bring her up. So she, about a month after this dream, she had a dream, right? And she calls me and she's like, not sure how to tell you this, but I'm just gonna tell you, she had a dream where she sees this little girl at like a little coffee table, like short little kid size. And she was in like a little dress, little black hair, kind of like what I look like as a child.

  And She was like coloring, totally distracted. And my mom says that she was just like doing her own thing, like looking down, totally distracted. And she's like, I felt like I was looking at your daughter. And I was like, well, can you tell her to hurry up and pay attention? Because being distracted like that totally sounds like her dad.

  Like we're all waiting for her. Right. I told her like as jokingly, tell her to pay attention. You know, we're all waiting for her. What is she doing? But it was like. you know, I responded to her jokingly, but in my [00:29:00] mind I was like, she's not ready. The fact that she's not even looking at her, she's literally doing her own thing.

  Yeah. I was like, she's there, but she's not ready. that's how I interpret it. 'cause my mom was like, I really don't know what to make of it. You're kind of better at this than me. and things like that don't normally happen to my mom. They will once in a while, but I'm more intuitive like that than her and I, took it as she wasn't ready.

  which led me to the next thing, and I remember this was after the meditation.

  Michelle: Well, you reached out to me actually. Before you move on. you actually sent me a message in the portal and said, my mom had a question for you. something about do grandparents get signs from the spirit? Baby, do you remember that?

  Vanessa - 1: Yes, she sent me with homework. She's like, next time you go see Michelle, please ask her. Because it was so vivid for her. and we talked about it. And I remember you telling me about your daughter, the dream you had with, your daughter, which she mentioned in your book as well.

  And,[00:30:00] she felt great when I told her that. She was like, oh, okay, perfect. She came to me, she was like, she came to me

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Vanessa - 1: and I was like, she's been around

  Michelle: Oh, it's amazing.

  Vanessa - 1: I, I was like, she's been around this whole time. and it was interesting 'cause I always felt like, like I said, it was like a very feminine energy and. Like what I was gonna say, that, the meditation opened the gateway to that. But there was one very last thing. It was after that dream. I think the dream was really what triggered it for me. I remember I was in the shower usually my little time to myself was either by the window in the front of my house where the sunlight comes in.

  Or in the shower at the end of the day. And I would sit there and it was a low point. It was not on the higher points of the journey, but I remember being like, wow, you know, my mom saw her and I can feel her presence. But it's like something that you feel like Augusta wind, but you can't see and you can't grasp.

  And I remember just looking up at the ceiling and just being, like talking to her and saying, what do you need from me? [00:31:00] Like, what do you need from me? To come to this earth, like to come to me, like, what do I have to do? the only word I can best use to describe it is that final surrender. Like I was the type of person that really needed to have control over things.

  I still kind of am, but it was the last thing where I was like, I don't have control over this. And it was the last surrender, I think in the journey where This is on your time. Like, what do you need me to do? What is gonna make you want to join us here? Like, I know you're here, but, but down here physically on this earth, what do you need from me?

  And I remember that was like the last surrender, like the last thing where I was like, okay, whatever. You know, what do you need from me? And. I take it. Looking back now, it was, I think for me, knowing my inner most self, it was a lesson I had to learn because since she's gotten here, [00:32:00] I definitely learned that you need to surrender.

  I'm just kidding. Like, I don't have control over this. This is what we're going with it. Right? She's controlling the narrative and it was kind of a lesson I had to learn. I was like, she was definitely teaching me a lesson. For, it was kind of the beginning of like, you're gonna need this in motherhood.

  And it was that last little shred that I was holding onto. and it was definitely like a very, I tell my husband that, I think it's so personal, it yourself that, For me, that was, I think, the last bit, the lesson I had to learn, like everything I had applied, everything that you and I had talked about, we had been working together for months at that point.

  I had even told myself, 'cause I was at a low point here and I said, I looked at my friend, the one I mentioned in the beginning. I said, you know what, if we're not pregnant by the next month, let's just go to Mexico. Like that's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna go to Mexico and we're gonna have margaritas and we're gonna have tacos.

  Michelle: And drink margaritas.

  Vanessa - 1: And we booked the [00:33:00] trip. We did, we did book the trip with the

  Michelle: I remember.

  Vanessa - 1: Like that's it. You know, if this month I'm not pregnant, next month we're gonna Mexico, and we did it. So, I mean, this spirit baby had a totally different plan and she controlled the narrative.

  Michelle: As usual. and I remember one other thing. One time you slept on the couch. I dunno if it was, sometimes you'll take naps with the dog or you fall asleep at night on the couch. I remember, Do you know what I'm gonna be talking about right now?

  Vanessa - 1: a little bit, but you might remember better than me right now.

  Michelle: Okay, so you slept on the couch and it was towards the end of this journey. It was when you started to get more communication with a baby and you always felt female energy. You fell asleep. You were like in this twilight state in between wake and sleep, and you heard like right in your ear, mommy, and it was a girl's

  Vanessa - 1: [00:34:00] yes. Wow. You just gave me goosebumps. You're so right. I kind of forgot about that. Wow. I always say right now my brain is at 75% best,

  Michelle: Which is normal.

  Vanessa - 1: you're so right.

  Michelle: You're a new mom.

  Vanessa - 1: I was falling asleep. I was on the couch. 'cause sometimes, like we don't agree on temperature and our bed was really small. Our house was really small.

  So I went ahead and I went with the dog to the living room and we had way more space. So I was cuddling with the dog. I was in and out. I was starting to fall asleep and clear as day, like you said, I heard a little, like a little girl's female voice say, mommy. Yeah, very. I would say that happened about three months before.

  It was right before I had that surrender moment. Yeah. Where I was like, okay, you're here, but like, what? What do you want and need from me?

  Michelle: It's amazing. Just incredible. But it is that surrender. It's so interesting how. Surrender because the whole [00:35:00] idea of really control and why we choose to control things is because we feel a lack of control. We feel a lack of strength or a lack of power. it's perspective, and perception.

  that we have a lack of power. We actually have more power. We don't realize we have, but I believe personally, if you, in order to access that power, you have to surrender.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes.

  Michelle: When you surrender, it's kind of like an oxymoron. You think that it's going to make you powerless, but in fact it's gonna do the exact opposite.

  That's where you find your power, because then you realize that there's this greater power outside of us, that it's not just up to us. And that's when you tune into

  Vanessa - 1: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: And access it, you're able to access it through the portal of surrender. I wanna actually, I just kind of thought about now it's like a portal, surrenders a portal to that power.

  And I think that when you realize that, that's when you feel actually [00:36:00] more empowered than you thought you would, you know, before that. And I remember you got on the call, so we did, our group calls and you got on the call. That was when, you had mentioned you were really excited because I think there was one call before and then I don't know if it was the first one that we were on, but then you, came on and then you said that your cyst shrunk.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes, our first

  Michelle: And then I had another person on the call who she also had a similar circumstance, so she was just amazed by her story. And I think that. That was one of the reasons why it was so powerful. And then little did you know, you were pregnant and then I remember you were really touched by my daughter's story.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes. I, when I read your

  Michelle: it in the book.

  Vanessa - 1: I started crying. I was sitting in the living room by myself and I started crying because my mom had had that dream. And I was like, wow, okay. this [00:37:00] is very powerful. And that call. It was really funny that first call that we had, I had just gotten the test results that the SIS had gotten smaller like a day or two before.

  So that week moved, very fast. I got those test results. We had the call. I was like, guys, look, we have good news. It sis got smaller. You know, everything's paying off. This is great. And I had gone in to do that ultrasound. for those test results. So we did a full ultrasound, we did a transvaginal ultrasound.

  We didn't do a, a pelvic one, but usually they would use that other one to take a better look at the cyst. So I remember telling the tech, I turned to her and I didn't fully think through my humor, but I was like, is there anything else there? And she says, no. Should there be? And I'm like. No, we're trying to get pregnant, so you know, if you saw anything else you can tell me.

  And she's like, no, I don't see anything else. I'm like, okay, that's fine. And I didn't make much else of it. [00:38:00] Sat with my doctor, looked through it, you know, was told this has got smaller. So I went home feeling happy, shared it with you guys about a day or two later that Friday, I was home alone. My husband was on his last night shift, I believe.

  And. I had no symptoms. It was just something that I was like brushing my teeth by myself. It was just me and the dog and I look in the mirror and at that point I know most of you listening, trying probably have you just stack up on pregnancy tests. At this point. I had an unopened box and I went into the linen cabinet and grabbed them and I was like, I'm just gonna take a pregnancy test.

  No symptoms or anything. I wasn't even late 'cause technically would've been like four more days to technically be late, and I kept brushing my teeth. I remember I looked down, I wasn't even recording on my phone or anything. I looked down and it was bright, like solid [00:39:00] lines, and I was like, okay.

  I didn't expect, I was like, one more. Let's just try one more. Let's go for the clear blue, right? Because it was the little paper strip ones. I'm like, let's go for the clear blue. And it was positive and I was like, lemme try one more. And then positive and like, this is at night. So I was like, okay. But then I can't tell anybody.

  I was like, he's not home yet. I'll wait till the morning. And in the morning I woke up, I took another test just to make sure. So it was like a, for sure, you know, the lines were there. But I had just been to the doctor and I had just talked to you guys and the doctor hadn't seen anything on the ultrasound, but it was too soon.

  She was too little. So I had to confirm it with a blood test after that, because again, I was going to Mexico the next week. Yeah. So this spirit baby said, well, we're all going to Mexico.

  Michelle: Yeah, I'm coming with

  you.

  Vanessa - 1: we're all going.

  Michelle: You bring me too. And then what's really crazy is. You popped into my mind. This happens a lot. I guess I don't technically call myself intuitive, but over time I've become, you [00:40:00] popped into my mind. I don't know why I was like, so when's the next gonna get pregnant?

  It was just like, kind of like it was a feeling that I had around this time, and sometimes I'll almost find myself getting impatient sometimes when I get impatient with the people I'm working with, they get pregnant. it's almost like this kind of I feel like it's time.

  I'm like, it's time for her

  Vanessa - 1: Well, do you remember the session we had before the group call, like our in-person acupuncture session? Do you remember what I asked you?

  Michelle: No,

  Vanessa - 1: I remember I was kind of on a low and I came in. At the end, I was like, Michelle, what do you think? Do you think I should just like get pricing for IUI and IVF and see what like the next, like do we keep going this way?

  Do we up it to, you know, do IUI and IVF, which I had already talked to the doctors about, and I remember you were like conflicting. You were like, let's keep going a little further. Right? And my OB had told me, you haven't been trying for that long. Just keep going, you know? make the appointment with the [00:41:00] fertility doctor.

  For, I think she said like six months from now and keep going. And then I talked to you and you were like, I think, you know, keep going. And you had did something in that session that was so, I don't know if you even remember, but I remember, I went to lay down on the table and there was one of your art pieces behind me and there was light coming in through the window.

  Do you remember? And there were these little dots, like a layered light dots. Reflecting on your art, and you said, can I get your phone and take the photo? And I forget what it was that you said. You're like, this is very like, it sometimes it's very symbolic or something. And you took my phone.

  You took the photo. I still have it. And I remembered that and I was

  Michelle: Maybe we're gonna use, let's use that photo for this. Maybe that's what we should use

  Vanessa - 1: send it to you. And I

  Michelle: It'll only make sense for people if they are listening to this.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes. And it was something like, it was a part of the art that it was like near the hands. I'll send it to you. But yeah, it was like layered dots. And I remember [00:42:00] that was in the beginning of the session, end of the session. I asked you that and you were like, I feel like we're doing well. I feel like let's keep going.

  Let's stay positive. but let's get the pricing anyways. Right? So I had asked for all that pricing. Fast forward to the following week when we had the group call. So I got the pricing back for IUI and IVF Thursday during the day I tested positive Friday night. and I had just told my

  Michelle: happens a lot.

  Vanessa - 1: yeah, I had just told my husband like, so this is what we're looking at, you know, let's start.

  Financially planning on what we wanna do and when we wanna try this, if we do. And then Friday, it's like he probably didn't even get a chance to process the thought. He, I remember when I told him, he was like, are you, are you joking right now? Like you just got an ultrasound? They didn't see anything. We just got pricing.

  I remember him saying like, the positive tests were on the table. He's like, are you sure? Like, what am I looking at? And I'm like, oh, I'm pregnant. He's like, are you sure? Because we were so mentally like. Just trying to run the [00:43:00] marathon of like, we're gonna keep going. Right? This is gonna take a while longer, but she decided otherwise,

  Michelle: Yeah, it's what happens. And so what's crazy is that I kind of had a sense that I was going to hear from you soon. It just was a feeling. It was also like the things that you were saying, the signs, I'm like, ah, I just feel like she's right around the corner. It felt like that. And then you had sent me a message. On the portal and you said, oh, I think I'm with, you know, your friend and you were with your friend. I don't wanna say the name. And so, can you call us? and I was with my daughter, the girl, you know, the daughter that was in the book, the story that made you cry crazy enough. Nothing's an accident.

  Everything kind of works out how it's supposed to. And, and I get, I call. I call and it's funny 'cause my daughter hates when I call on the phone, 'cause she likes to listen to her music and it's disruptive, but. She was very engaged in this conversation, and that was when you told me, and I knew [00:44:00] that that's what you were gonna tell me.

  And it was just random. I mean, not random, but, amazingly she was with me on the call and she, in some way you really connected with her through the story. So it's just so wild how like there's so much intelligence at play and it's like, you know, people's different stories interweave and connect.

  People, and this is why I find the podcasting so powerful. 'cause you get stories and there's people listening right now that are meant to hear this story right at this moment. Just like you were meant to hear or to read. Story right when you did and it just, everything happens and unfolds. Especially, I feel like it happens more synchronicity happens more when you surrender, when you get into the portal of surrender and it was just pretty wild, but it was magical.

  I like it was absolutely magical.

  Vanessa - 1: And I always say it just felt like surrendering because I would say the month before. In full [00:45:00] transparency, I was kind of losing it, you know, I felt like I was losing myself, but I, it was losing the structure that I wanted to have. So I remember, like you said, I started going back I was doing tennis and I was going to the gym in the morning, which I love to do.

  I love my gym and I love the friends I go with. And, we had, there's this one instructor, the gym owner, he is really like, he comes by, he's like, come on. Like, let's, you know, push harder. And I was like. Please don't yell at me today. I'm gonna cry because, I was so tapped out. I felt like the load I was carrying was so much.

  And he came like, yeah, okay. And he is like, let's go, like, pick up heavier. And I just started crying. Michelle lost it at the gym. I was like, of all the places. And he looks at me and he's like, this, ex MMA fighter. He looks at me, he's like, what's going on? And I was like, I'm trying to get pregnant and nothing's working.

  and he's like. you're a mentally strong girl. Like, but look what's happening. You know, you gotta let it go. And he said, you gotta get, you know, you gotta give it to God. you gotta let it go. You gotta let it go [00:46:00] and be here for yourself and try to be happy while you're here.

  And it's hard. He is like, I know it's hard. There's a lot of girls in this gym that have also gone through it, and then you see them come with the stroller, like at the 6:00 AM class. I broke down at the gym. I had my regular cardiologist appointment, which mind you, this cardiologist has seen me since my mom was six months pregnant with me and I just turned 35.

  I went with to him the day before yesterday actually, with the baby. So. He's like an uncle at this point. And I go for my regular checkup and I break down there too. And he's like, what's going on? You know, why are you breaking down crying? And I remember he said, have your husband call me, right? I was like, I just don't know what the next step is.

  Like I don't know what to do. And he has two girls of his own. And I remember he's like, you know, he's like, I've seen all sorts of babies. 'cause he's pediatric, but he still has me as a patient. He's great. And he talked to me like a dad. Right. And there was another place I also broke down.

  I didn't break down at [00:47:00] tennis, but I, there was another place also. I was just like that last month I was so emotional and I felt like, then came that moment in the shower, I was like, I need to just like the surrender moment. 'cause I think I was crying because I was holding on to so much. was so much, and I think her lesson to me was like, you don't need to hold onto that.

  You just, you gotta let it go.

  Michelle: And it's almost like you had a cleanse.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah.

  Michelle: Like a strong release. And it's like shortly after that release where you like acknowledge how you felt and you really, like you faced it, that's when the transformation happened.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah. That last month. On a week by week basis was really intense because I can tell you the week alone where like I talked to you guys, I saw the doctor, then I tested positive, and it was like every week was a lot. it was very emotionally heavy, but it was great and wonderful and it needed to happen the way it needed to happen.[00:48:00]

  When I look back at it

  Michelle: And now,

  Vanessa - 1: well,

  Michelle: now, you have your girl.

  Vanessa - 1: yes, so again, She is something else. my pregnancy was, again, you know, it was a lesson learned. 'cause my pregnancy, she was great. I struggled a little bit more, so we were monitoring me for preeclampsia pretty early on. And we had a team of doctors, so I had my doctor, I had two card.

  I had, the maternal fetal specialist on board as well. We were all monitoring week by week. I actually went to the OBER two times, if not three, if I remember, during the pregnancy for high blood pressure. So it wasn't easy, but that's surrendering taught me. It's like we're just gonna go with it.

  And I would go to my appointment on Friday and be like, we might be having a baby today. We might not. So.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 1: It helped me a lot with the pregnancy and then she decided, well, she didn't, but the team decided to either induce or have a C-section at 37 weeks, so I ended up having her via a [00:49:00] C-section 37 weeks and a day because I couldn't decide what I wanted to do.

  I didn't know if I wanted to be induced or have a C-section, but based on all of my health markers, we decided C-section was safer and. It was great. The recovery went really well. She did really well and I remember the moment I saw her, it was like, that's a little face that's, you know, I've been carrying this whole time.

  But it also felt like I've known you since forever.

  Michelle: Wow, that's amazing.

  Vanessa - 1: and I remember looking at my husband and I was like, I will pick her over you every single time in every lifetime. Like, I like that mother bear. It was like, instinctually just happened and I was in, still in the operating room, and it just instinctually.

  I was like, she's mine. That's mine.

  Michelle: That's so cute. and, you sent me pictures of her and I thought it was so cute. So cute. And then there was one that was so funny 'cause because you always had a little spice You always told I never [00:50:00] fully saw that, but I know what you mean. Like, it's like that strong spirited personality.

  You're like, you always told me that you felt that way and that you had that spice. There was a picture of her and you're like, she has that and there's this look she was giving. And I was like, this is perfect.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah, and it's funny 'cause that picture was actually, there was a longer video where it wasn't just an instant, like she was looking at us like, the customer service here sucks. Like that was her little personality. Like the milk is taking forever. Like that is heating up the milk. The customer service here, you know.

  she is definitely the best of both of us. She's really smiley like him, and then she has that spice from me and everything comes around in life. I definitely look at my mom and I'm like, wow, how did you survive such a spicy child? And now

  Michelle: Yes.

  Vanessa - 1: my mom's like, yeah, that definitely, like, we're angry, crying now.

  So she definitely gets a bit of that. From me. 'cause he's not like [00:51:00] that. And she really has taught me that surrendering lesson was I am still learning. I'm still learning. When I think I got it together, everything's planned. And she's like, yeah, you think we're gonna go to the park outfit change.

  Michelle: totally. it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong practice. I mean, it really is. So, wow. This is, your story is incredible and, and not just your story, but also your. Perspective and how you can kind of go back and look at it in such a poetic way because, you know, people can look at things, there's circumstances happen and everybody can perceive it differently.

  And some people look at it as more layered and in depth and having meaning. and I love the way you tell stories. I really think that it's incredibly inspiring.

  Vanessa - 1: thank

  Michelle: thank you so much for opening up and sharing your incredible story. I'm sure there's so many people listening to this that may actually have this episode on repeat, for [00:52:00] literally like moments where they feel down just to get some hope.

  So thank you for providing that for the community.

  Vanessa - 1: Thank you. I've definitely been there. The other episodes helped me significantly, so I just, you know, I've been there. I understand. It's a long journey, but it's definitely worth it.

  Michelle: Thank you.

  ​[00:53:00]

Ep 380 The Fertility Exercise That Supports Hormones, Blood Flow, and Ovulation with Marta Han and Zsofia Jamieson

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Marta Han and Zsofia Jamieson, founders of The Fertility Class @thefertilityclass and teachers of the Aviva Method, a pelvic centered movement practice designed to support hormonal balance and fertility.

In this conversation, we explore how targeted rhythmic movement can improve circulation to the reproductive organs, support communication between the brain and ovaries, and help regulate the menstrual cycle. Marta shares her personal story of recovering from hypothalamic amenorrhea after years of overtraining and undernourishing her body, while Zsofia talks about overcoming PCOS symptoms and restoring her cycles through fertility focused movement.

We also discuss how gentle, intentional movement can reduce pelvic stagnation, calm the nervous system, and create a sense of safety in the body, which is essential for ovulation and reproductive health. Marta and Zsofia explain how the Aviva Method works, why it is different from traditional workouts, and how many women notice improvements in ovulation, cervical mucus, PMS symptoms, and overall hormonal balance.

If you are trying to conceive naturally, navigating irregular cycles, or simply looking for a supportive way to reconnect with your body and reproductive health, this episode offers a powerful perspective on movement as medicine for fertility.

Key Takeaways:

• The Aviva Method uses rhythmic pelvic focused movement to improve blood flow to the uterus and ovaries and support reproductive health.

• Gentle and intentional movement can help regulate the nervous system and create the sense of safety the body needs for ovulation.

• Pelvic stagnation from long hours of sitting and chronic stress may impact fertility and hormonal balance.

• Movement that targets the pelvic region can support communication between the brain and reproductive organs.

• Many women report improvements in cycle regularity, ovulation timing, PMS symptoms, and cervical mucus after consistent practice.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

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Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 79 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today's guest is one of those voices that instantly shifts the energy in the room. You may know her as Chia Mosley, the women behind pregnancy over 40. And her story is both powerful and deeply grounding.

  After being told directly and indirectly that motherhood was no longer in the cards, chia naturally conceived at 46, welcomed her daughter at 47. And completely challenge the narrative. So many women are fed about age, fertility, and most importantly, what is possible in this conversation? We go far beyond the headline.

  Chia shares the real origin story, what changed for her in her early forties, what it felt like to experience loss, and then conceive again. Why she decided to share her pregnancy publicly as a way of choosing courage over fear. [00:01:00] We also talk about how medical messaging can either collapse a woman's hope or support her physiology, the mindset shift she calls being willing to be lucky, and why she believes we need real research on the common denominators among women who conceive naturally after 40.

  We also get into practical and holistic factors that matter, like movement. Food, environmental toxins, emotional boundaries, and spirituality. Plus my own perspective after being asked by chia on how acupuncture supports fertility through blood flow, digestion, and nervous system regulation. If you've ever felt exhausted by the fertility journey, discouraged by lab numbers like a MH or tired of being reduced to statistics, this episode is for you.

  Michelle: [00:02:00] Welcome to the podcast, g. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Cha Mosley: I am excited to be here. You have no idea.

  Michelle: So we just had a really nice pre-talk and I've been following you for a little while on Instagram. Just love your story and I found it so inspiring and I really love bringing in inspiring guests on the podcast because I know my listeners need a lot of hope. It's the ups and downs of the fertility journey.

  With that I would love to get your origin story so people can know, like really your amazing, inspirational story,

  Cha Mosley: Okay, how far back to the origin do we wanna go?

  Michelle: everything that's applicable to,

  Cha Mosley: I feel like everyone, every [00:03:00] person's life from beginning to end is leading them to a place. But I'll fast forward and I'll start to, when I got dumped at the age of 41. By, I had been in a relationship with a man who was very upfront that he never wanted to get married and he never wanted to have children. And we had started dating when I was 38 and I really liked him and we did genuinely like each other. We had a really good friendship. We traveled and it was a lot of fun, but I justified this relationship by saying I'm already 38. I've never had trouble dating. I've never had trouble meeting men. So I said if I really wanted to have a family, I would've done it already. That's how I dismissed and made that right. And then my mom and dad actually did not get legally married until, I was wanna say 28 years old.

  Michelle: Oh wow.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. My mom and dad were just together. Okay.

  Michelle: so cool. I

  Cha Mosley: Yeah I really feel like they showed me the [00:04:00] true definition of marriage because for two people who could have left at any time, they sure did ride it out through some things.

  And so I was raised in a family where I didn't see that the actual ceremony of marriage was necessary for true commitment. And I know that this is not for everyone, but this is what I was raised in. And so this is how I justified that relationship. I don't believe that you actually commitment does not rely on marriage and that I'm old anyway, and so I must not gonna have no babies.

  No way. And so Yeah.

  we can make this work. It didn't work. I actually always wanted to have a family and while I still do hold a similar view about marriage. His unwillingness to entertain marriage was more about his lack of commitment. And that started, and not even so much oh, there was infidelity or things like that, but just we were just gonna be buddies and that started to resonate in how the relationship was moving forward.

  And I became very unhappy. [00:05:00] saw that like we, he saw that, we went to a friend's wedding of his and the lady. Was like, why your girlfriend is so beautiful? Like when are you gonna marry her? And his reply was we're shopping for a dog. And I just felt so small and so introverted because o other people would look at me and say, this is a good catch.

  When are you gonna get married? And there was always some off the wall strange answer that led nowhere near commitment or acknowledgement that he thought I was wonderful. And he saw that. I was shrink. I was shrinking. So he dumped me. I got dumped at 41 a week before my 41st birthday and believed that was it.

  I had just given all my good years for man, I didn't want children. I continue to work on myself, continue to learn about people life, volunteer work, do things, and we fast forward and I also start writing down what am I looking for in a man? What am I looking for? What would he be looking for in me?

  I start writing these things down. Ladies, you have to write these

  Michelle: Yes. Yes.

  Cha Mosley: You have to write everything down, every [00:06:00] goal, write it down, and, so here I am, I'm 43 and I'm single. There's now we're in a phase of COVID, right? I'm living in Florida now. I'm single. I'm in my cute little girl apartment and it's great, but I'm like, I'm tired.

  I don't wanna be single anymore, and I make a decision. That's it. This is the year I'm meeting my guy. I am meeting my man. And then two weeks later we met and I met my guy.

  Michelle: Oh, I love that.

  Cha Mosley: Two weeks later, we met and he ticked so many boxes. it wasn't all of them, but enough. The important ones. There's some luxury items I had on there that weren't requirements.

  Right?

  Michelle: it would be nice items.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Luxury items. If he was also. and so, you know, we fell in love very fast. And he's European, he's from Transylvania of all places. And so he started bringing me into a social circle and his native language is Hungarian. So not a lot of Sylvania out here, but there are Hungarian. So we go to the Hungarian parties with [00:07:00] his people and I could tell here's this black lady, right?

  I'm new, like this is new. There's nothing in these parties, but Hungarians like he's an outsider. He's from Transylvania, but they let him in and he shows up with this lady and I could see the curiosity like, do you think you guys will have babies? Can you have baby? I could see the interest in Ooh, this would be good.

  This little mix here would be nice. We started talking about it and we decided that it would be good. It would be good if we could have a baby, but I made it clear. I didn't wanna do IVF. I liked our life. We were very happy. By this time, I'm 44. I don't wanna introduce a fertility journey into my life. I'm like, I don't want our life to now become like I'm jacking myself up with hormones. We're sad because it's not working. I'm 44. There's a good chance it won't work. With my mindset. No ladies who are going for IVF, please, this is my story, not your story. I felt for me, I was not up for dealing with that with, and nor did I feel like we should, 'cause we were happy. And so we said, if it happens. It happened. So it, at least we discussed it to know that if it did happen, it wouldn't be like, oh you need to get an [00:08:00] abortion. We agreed that we would wanna keep the baby if it were to happen, and we went on about our lives, got pregnant at 45 miscarriage six weeks later.

  But it made me excited about, started bringing back my hope. So like at that time of that six weeks of being pregnant, I started, maybe I can't have a family. I've always wanted to be a mom, but can have two children. And then I miscarried. Oh no, fine. But my OB at the time was a gym, and she assured me miscarriages happened to women of all ages. It's not about my age. Miscarriages happened, and the fact that I could get pregnant at 45, I was 45 by then was a good sign, and she believed I could conceive again. And it was that medical attitude that I am begging every practitioner to adopt just imbu positivity into your patients. And sure enough, 10 months later I conceived and I went looking for her, and she was retired.

  Michelle: Oh no, but I was gonna say, when you said that, I was like, that's really lucky.

  Cha Mosley: That's the story in a nutshell. And had a healthy, beautiful baby.[00:09:00]

  Oh yeah. I forgot that part. Yeah, so I conceived again 10 months later and of course I was afraid. Because I had that miscarriage before, very reluctant to tell anybody that I was pregnant. Very reluctant to get excited about it. Because, I probably wasn't gonna carry her to term anyway.

  And I didn't know it was a she at the time. It wasn't gonna carry it to term, and I didn't wanna tell people, but then I didn't like my attitude. I was like, that's really this really like chicken shit chia. You're essentially like rooting against your baby and you're acting in fear. And fear is a very low emotion to carry around.

  And so I decided that I would share my story on social media, not share it because I'm gonna be an influencer inspiring women, but I'm just gonna tell people I'm pregnant so that I'm not hiding it. I'm just gonna communicate about it broadly. 'cause that's the opposite of fear. And this was all about me handling my own. SHIT about myself. And then women started following along and my belly started growing bigger and bigger, and all the tests were coming back positive. And then I just started developing this following. And now I was like [00:10:00] now I have to keep going because these ladies are so invested now. They wanna see the baby, now they wanna know the baby.

  Now they're calling themselves internet aunties. Now they're in it. Now I can't stop.

  Michelle: That's amazing. It's incredible. I was blown away with the story. I just love it because so many people are in their forties, in at 35, are told that they're geriatric. Like it's geriatric pregnancy. Your fertility falls off a cliff. This is literally what's in the textbooks.

  And of course, statistics are not personal. It's just take everybody in. Put into this whole big category of this is what it is, and you're just a.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I ran into that, towards the end of my pregnancy when um, they were talking about inducing me and I was like, listen, here's the deal. I said I, because they were like, because of your age and it's your first pregnancy and, and African American women I had these like triple strikes against me. And I was, and I said, listen, I have a master's degree. And not [00:11:00] that education matters, but it's an indicator of something, i'm college educated, I ran division one track. I've never done drugs. I don't have any pre-existing conditions. I'm not alcoholic. I've never been on medications. Like I have nothing.

  Does that not make my chances any better? The data factors all that. No, it doesn't. It's impossible. It's impossible. And so my new chance now that women are gonna hear me repeating more and more as I want some white coats to do the research. What is the common denominator on women who can conceive naturally after 40?

  There is some underlying predispositions or lifestyle factors that we have that I think are worthy of studying. We're not just lucky. I hate that. Of course. Luck, of course. God, of course. These things are factors, but not to the point of ignoring what did you do? What did all of you ladies do? What did you eat? What's your hormone levels? What, when did you start your period? Like I [00:12:00] don't know the exact questions to ask, which is why I think I'd like some white coats to do it. But there was, I saw in 60 Minutes there was a study as a centurion study like about people who lived to a hundred and they care at this study on, I don't know, for 20 years, researching these people who live to a hundred and why in the common denominators.

  And I'm like, can we not do such a similar thing for pregnancies after

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: we could put the truth. Let's update the data.

  Michelle: I agree. I think I would love that information and that data.

  Cha Mosley: There's too many of us sitting at home, right? And obviously some ladies are using, IVF or donor eggs or things like that. But then we can work backwards and we can help women make lifestyle choices that. Gear them towards prolonged fertility because there's a lot of ladies in other countries, they're like, what's the big deal?

  Like women in my country have babies into their forties and fifties all the time, and I'm like this is, I love America. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of these people that hates my country. I've traveled to enough places to know I like it here, but however, it's a [00:13:00] mess with the food and drug,

  Michelle: a hundred

  Cha Mosley: pharma relationships and all The things we're taught, you know

  about our

  Michelle: food actually interesting. There was a study of processed food that when women stop eating processed food and eat whole foods, their a MH goes up.

  It's wild.

  Cha Mosley: it's wild. It's wild, right? We've been set up. We've been set up from an early age. I've been telling women I got put on birth control pills at 15, but I got off right. And I, with the thought that I think I wanna have a baby one day, so I should probably stop taking these, right? But put on birth control pills at 15.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. No. It happens all the time. It's probably more of a story, like the majority of the stories.

  Cha Mosley: So yeah. So here we are. Here we are, us girls talking about this thing and trying to spread the word that there's other ways, there's other means, there's other therapies. We need to be taking care of [00:14:00] ourselves way in advance of our fertility journeys. We need to start in our teens, our twenties.

  Our bodies are so forgiving in our twenties. You don't realize. The damage you're causing sometimes until later

  Michelle: 'Cause you don't feel it.

  Cha Mosley: You don't really feel it. But I feel like I was fortunate enough that I got some clear education in my thirties. Into my forties that altered how I was managing my body.

  And I think it really helped. I'm glad to be meeting with you an acupuncturist. I didn't share with you, but acupuncturist saved me from debilitating pain twice. So I didn't use it as part of my fertility journey 'cause I didn't have a fertility journey. I got pregnant by surprise. But I have used acupuncture and I direct anybody I can.

  I go see an acupuncturist, whatever the problem is, add it to the protocol.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, because because really the side effects are minimal maybe bruising or, there's not like a ton of it's so safe and it's incredibly effective. Yeah, so that's that's definitely something. That's how I got into [00:15:00] it. I started as a patient. I was so intrigued that whenever I'd go, I'd ask them, what is this point?

  What is that point? What is this? It's so interesting. How does this work? I don't get it. It was really amazing.

  Cha Mosley: You're talking about acupuncture, like ba basically restoring your own fertility and hormonal balance. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. It really did. Yeah, that's really fascinating. What's really interesting about your story is that you came from an unconventional household, So what's interesting is if you see like families where people are, kids learn two languages, it's much easier for them to learn languages. It almost opens their mind to something different. And so I'm wondering, subconsciously our bodies respond to new things more easily if we know that something can still work, even though it's not necessarily conventional.

  Michelle: So I'm wondering if there's some kind of subconscious open-mindedness that you had because of seeing your parents and seeing how things can be, they don't necessarily have to conform [00:16:00] to what's considered normal.

  Cha Mosley: Exactly right. Exactly right. Like in that aspect of things. For sure. And I feel like as well too,

  like I.

  learned so much from my mom and dad and their endurance in their relationship and how they approached each other that yeah you can see that non-conventional and non-traditional things do work.

  I saw how they supported each other. Gosh, that I had a train of thought with that about open-mindedness, I think. Yes. So there's also a philosophy that I adopted about myself that I realize you gotta, if you're self aware, you'll realize things about your trajectory in life. And I adopted something, and I hope that people receive this.

  We're in a very political climate, but just receive this as I'm telling it and make nothing else out of it. Please. So many years ago, before Donald Trump was our president. He went and spoke at my friend's job, like he was brought in as a guest speaker, motivational or something. And in this speech he said and she relayed this [00:17:00] to me, that you have to be willing to be part of his success was a willingness to be lucky. Just some people aren't even willing to receive luck, which we're finding this in my comment streams and things like that, right?

  But when she shared that with me, I thought, yeah, that's interesting. Be willing for the sky to drop a million dollars on your head. Now she shared this with me. I was barely in my twenties, so now I'm 50. Right? So that was a long time ago, but that was something I.

  said, you know what? Yeah.

  I like that. I'm willing to be lucky. Then further, I realized I would have some bad situations pop up sometimes. And, but I never got the worst case scenario, right? Missed the flight by mistake.

  Miss booked. It showed up a day later, no problem. Just pay a $50 upgrade and we'll take care of you, man. I never get the that's gonna be $1,000 and you have to wait in line. And then so I adopted another life operating basis philosophy about myself that [00:18:00] I'm lucky. And I never, even when things go bad, I never get the worst case scenario. Things go bad, but I never get the worst case scenario. And so these are two operating basis that I've just carried with me. I'm willing to be lucky. I'm willing for things to not even and I wasn't thinking about it, and it just happened and it went well. And even if it goes bad, it ain't gonna go as bad as it could have.

  And that's my, this is how I run my life.

  I

  Michelle: love that. Have you heard of the Luck Factor? It's a book.

  Cha Mosley: No. What's

  Michelle: It's really interesting. So I listened to the audio book 'cause I just don't have time to sit and read. But I listened to the audio book and it's called The Luck Factor. And it's based on actual like studies or research that they did on certain people that are considered to be luck.

  And he was talking about even like some lady who won the lottery multiple times, like things like that. There are people like that. That do live in this world. There are people that are really considered very lucky against all odds. And so they were curious [00:19:00] to see what is it? And I don't remember the big list, but the two things that really came to mind is people who are more apt to put themselves out there in certain opportunity because you can't have opportunities without having the experiences.

  So it's almost like the idea of. If you're 50, 50% chance of success if you're going and trying versus 0% success if you don't do anything. So it's really getting out there, meeting other people because when you're meeting other people, you're putting yourself in this network and then through that, opportunities arise.

  And you have all these like happenings or synchronicities that happen. Versus and then that's one of them. And then another thing is that you also see yourself, like you see things that are not that happen that aren't good, that they're there to help you in some way. Like you just have this in innate belief.

  And then you're also very nonchalant about like things that happened oh yeah, this is just normal. [00:20:00] When things happen really well, like it's just, it's a normal thing and you don't put extra focus on making it happen or you're just flowing with you go with the flow and I thought that was really interesting

  Cha Mosley: That is cool. That

  Michelle: and it's it sounds like you just had that naturally,

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: it out.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. You arrive at places and things and. You learn about life and you study and you learn about spirituality and the mind and things and I read a book, dietetics and I learned about the mind and past trauma and how the mind can. Cause you to behave rationally and do certain things and start to sort out oh do I have to be irrational because of something that happened in the past?

  Or can I get a hold of myself? Can I,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Just, and so you start learning how to operate more like a winner. It is also something my father ingrained in me as well, my father coached me in running track and he's always very competitive. My dad is I dunno if you remember TC from the original [00:21:00] Magnum pi, but there's a TV show, Magnum PI with Tom Selleck in Hawaii.

  Many people in, yeah. So he was an actor in a time where black actors didn't have the kind of success that he was having, and he's very much a winner and has a winner attitude. So he always ingrained in me too, having a winning effing attitude like you're doing. When people ask you how you're doing, they don't wanna hear all your problems, you're fine.

  And not to say that you can't have problems, right? But there was just a certain. Attitude that he wanted to see me carry through in life. And as I become older, I more greatly understand and appreciate it. You have to be a winner. You cannot approach life because things happen and oh this, and my dad hit me and my dog ate my homework, and the cat did this, and everybody did these things to you.

  You're not gonna make it. This planet eats victims. eats

  Michelle: oh, trust me. I've been there. When we were talking before, you were a, it was really nice actually. She was asking about me which usually don't PE [00:22:00] guests don't do. She's I wanna know who I'm talking to.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: So I had shared that I had irregular periods, and during that time my hormones were outta whack and there was a time for sure I had a very big victim mentality at work and things weren't working out.

  And I remember something clicked and I was like, wait I can't be doing this. I gotta. I can't, I gotta get myself out of this. I gotta start thinking more positive. It was almost like my spirit guide. Some I don't know, something was telling me I was getting downloads like, Michelle, this isn't working.

  you gotta take you gotta take responsibility. Take responsibility for your stuff. And it was just like somehow, but it was good because I had to go through that, at least for me. I needed to experience what it was like somewhere where I felt helpless. It makes me a better coach now, like it makes me a better guide for the people that I work with.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: To understand really what it feels like to be in different states of mind. And then [00:23:00] finally, I read the book, the Power of the Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy, and that literally single-handedly changed my life. Besides the acupuncture, but it was around the same time.

  Cha Mosley: But it's mindset too. The acupuncture, acupuncture is actually, to me, very spiritual too. It really is. It's very spiritual, but It's a, an address to the

  body. It's energetic.

  right? It's

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: right? But there is the spirit is separate. The mind, the spirit. These are things that we're dealing with outside of the body and you have to address them both somehow some way, because your body will only be as well as your mind lets it right anyway.

  So if you are sad chronically, you're going to be sick more often. That.

  Michelle: And it's actually according to science, it's actually known. It's a fact like that's been studied.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. You gotta find a way to be innately happy, preferably without drugging yourself there. I know that doctors prescribe medications for the mind, but those don't [00:24:00] unburden the real reason of the sadness anyway, or the upset or the anxiety. And you're ideally, if you can work through that and get there, you will be physically better.

  Michelle: Yeah, elevated emotions. That there was a study that was done that showed that if laughter therapy after IVF transfers like increased the success rate like dramatically.

  Cha Mosley: I believe that just like laugh, just find a reason to laugh and just like it's true that there is a drill I've done too, that if you just start laughing, you'll just laugh. You force to laugh and then you laugh.

  Michelle: No, literally. And it's funny 'cause you were talking about how you wrote down things, first of all, writing things down. There was a study on that too, and it actually, if you write down your goals, you're 40% more likely to have them happen. That's, so writing is actually incredibly important.

  There's something really magical about it. Probably we only scratch the surface as to why it works. There's, it's really profoundly effective. And then also. I wrote about my husband [00:25:00] before I met him, so I did affirmations. 'cause I was like, this is what I want. And it was like a whole list and he had to be funny.

  And I was like I need somebody to make me laugh, like somebody who's funny because I just feel like life is so much better when you can laugh, like with the people you're around because it there's gonna be heavy situations that we're gonna face, you know, if we're gonna get married and I want somebody who I can laugh with.

  Cha Mosley: That is fantastic. I didn't put laughter on mine and that's a good one. That's a good one. I should have put that down 'cause you got a terrible sense of humor. I feel honey, that is not funny. But I

  Michelle: But sense of humor is contagious. So you can influence him.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. I, working on it. Working on it. But I did put that

  I want somebody who was happy.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Somebody who I.

  like a happy man. Men that got chips on their shoulder and access to grind are exhausting. You need a happy, I need a happy man that can grind and ax, just not, but he's not doing it as a way of life.

  Michelle: Yes. But that's yeah. As long as you can laugh at him, it's [00:26:00] okay.

  Cha Mosley: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

  Michelle: then that's also considered part of it.

  Cha Mosley: List, list. He,

  Michelle: But you can influence him. You can influence him.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. No, totally.

  Michelle: Watch comedies do something funny. We watch reels all the time. I laugh his like, I can't even breathe sometimes with some of the reels that I find on. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I'm sitting there scrolling. I'm like, I can't even believe myself.

  I can't. I gotta stop.

  Cha Mosley: I know. Yeah. I think our common thing is these reels that are so ridiculous that the comment sections are the funniest part. Like the reel

  Michelle: Oh

  Cha Mosley: bad that they just go straight to the comments what do

  Michelle: yes.

  Cha Mosley: say?

  Michelle: It's so funny. It's really like sometimes I'll screenshot and send it to my family 'cause it's just, it's so funny. But I was gonna say, so speaking of reels, like you, we were just talking about this in the pre-talk, how sometimes when you do break the status and you live a life that is unconventional in a good way.

  It's so interesting, and [00:27:00] I found this just in general, like learning, like the mindset how sometimes even when I'm working with people, like I can't be too quick to change the reality or to question the reality or, it's an ease thing. The reason why is because when people's reality, even though it's a worse reality than the reality you're presenting.

  For them to switch from a reality that they're comfortable with, even though it's not a good one, they're gonna be really protective of it. And it's a really interesting psychology. But it is, you present them with something that is so incredible that breaks really, like the reality or the logic that people have gotten so used to breaks the, I guess the record, the same thing with a four minute mile.

  About a lot. It's like the second it, the second it was broken and people mentally prepared for it, then it was broken a lot more frequently, very closely [00:28:00] after.

  Cha Mosley: yeah, I like that analogy. I might use that one

  Michelle: Oh, use it. Take it.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah. But it's amazing how people are very protective of it, including the industry and how people just don't like, they don't wanna hear it.

  That it's possible to get pregnant in your late forties. And the oldest woman that got pregnant actually naturally was 58, and she had her baby at 59.

  Cha Mosley: Wow.

  Michelle: But the point is it's possible.

  Cha Mosley: that's it. That's all I'm saying

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Hey, it's a mindset, almost like the four minute mile. Know that there is somebody that ran a four minute mile, so if that one person did it, they know that it can be done. Again, that's, that is essentially the simplicity. Of my message and, but Yeah.

  it does hit realities of people who don't like it. It hits realities of women who have been going at it for a long time. Without success, right? It ruffles their feathers a [00:29:00] bit, but largely my message isn't directed at them when I say that it's possible, right?

  It's to the women who haven't even met their man yet and they're panicking. They're 40 and they're still single, or they're just trying, and they went in and the doctor said, oh, your A MH is low, and they're destroyed thinking that it's impossible. My messaging is to those women who are just starting out, that the first mindset before you talk to anybody is just simply know that it's possible. And the moment that you hear that it's not possible, raise that as a red flag and go find somebody else.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Cha Mosley: That's all I'm saying right now. You'll do your journey and what will be, and some women do genuinely struggle with infertility, but. There's so many things that you can do for yourself to prepare your body for pregnancy before we conclude that you genuinely have infertility. There's some work to be done, and that's all I'm trying to tell women. But not only is it [00:30:00] possible, you can have a perfectly favorable outcome, like I, I represent, I know the holy grail of what's possible. Natural conception, right? Without trying carry my baby to term. I didn't have diabetes, I didn't have preeclampsia. I didn't swell, I didn't vomit. I gained like 23 pounds, like my body bounce back. The baby's healthy. But guess what? That's fucking good news. I dunno why people are so mad.

  Michelle: Yeah. No, it's amazing news. It's incredible. It inspires me. That's what like your story really is so inspiring.

  Cha Mosley: And most people get it. Most people get it. But some people that are in a certain frame of mind take the messaging as an assault that I am misdirecting women and giving false hope and I shouldn't tell them this. And I'm like everybody else is telling 'em everything else. I'm, my story is not the problem.

  Michelle: It's just your story.

  Cha Mosley: Teach my story.

  Michelle: Yeah. And so to that I would love if somebody really did study this and ask questions. I'm almost [00:31:00] thinking of just doing a questionnaire on my own, like not real study, but just collecting information. 'cause I'd be really curious, but from your perspective, because I do believe in intuition.

  I do think that your opinion of this matters, even if you're not a white coat, because you know innately. What innately we have intelligence within us that kind of guides us. What are your thoughts of why you were able to conceive? Are there anything, like we were talking about the mindset, maybe seeing things or visioning or allowing yourself to feel lucky, but anything else?

  Cha Mosley: There's those things, right? There's my general attitude about life, but again, we talk about the western culture. So one, I was an athlete, right? Like I, I ran track. I was very fit and I maintained that fitness through my thirties and things where I run and I used my body. I didn't let my. Muscle mass go. I kept myself fit. [00:32:00] I'm proud of the fact that I don't smoke cigarettes. I did in my upper twenties, I had a brief party girl phase in Vegas where I was drinking, right? But that didn't last long. I actually self-regulated on that. I drove home drunk one night. I drove, I'm really intoxicated. And I looked at that night and I said, that's not okay. God got you home, but don't do that again. And I never drank like that again. And so I don't have a, I don't have genuinely an alcohol history or a drug history. I think that these things matter. My mom taught me how to cook, so I cook at home.

  I've always cooked at home more than eating out. I do eat out, I

  Michelle: So you eat more whole foods, like actual, like

  Cha Mosley: Whole food. Yeah.

  I take the ground meat and I ground it up and throw it in a salad or I make a taco and I'm not, Yeah.

  maybe the taco shell was processed, but the fact of even just simply cooking at Yeah. Using your own hands and your energy to make your food.

  Your own hands, your own energy, you know what you put in it.

  There's not all these extra added things that you get when you [00:33:00] go to a restaurant or McDonald's, right? So the fact that I eat at home more than I eat out the people that I surround myself with, like I'm very mindful of energy. Like you have your own energy, but your energy is influenced by your environment.

  Michelle: It's true.

  Cha Mosley: So if you're surrounded by negative people, you will eventually drop down to that or worse. So my girlfriends, are very positive people. My fiances are upbeat, peppy, happy guy. And that's how I like it. And I don't hang out with drama. I just don't like, I don't, I'm not interested.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: I'm almost a bad friend. Energy. Like you can only call me so many times with the same problem before I'm like, stop calling 'cause I done told you what I think. So this is the fifth phone call about Tyrone. If you're not gonna leave him, that's okay, but we need to talk about something else.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent.

  Cha Mosley: Waste all my hours with your whining. I'm not

  Michelle: about this a lot. Boundaries.

  Cha Mosley: I been always wanna [00:34:00] throw up the fence. Like you can call me a couple times with the problem, but if I gave you my advice and you don't wanna follow it, I don't care. That's okay. But we gotta talk about something else.

  Michelle: Yeah, that's true.

  Cha Mosley: that's how it is. It's your energy.

  It's how you allow people to interact and engage with you. It is what you put in your body. I stopped wearing fragrances. I cut, I said I should I didn't stop. I would say I cut my use of fragrance products by about 85%. At the age of 30, your skin's your largest organ.

  So I bathe with un fragrance soaps and Yeah.

  sometimes it's dove and that might have some other stuff in it, but I just, you can't do everything right.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's true.

  Cha Mosley: like some, you gotta give yourself a break somewhere, right? So the fragrance products and things, I really cut back on that. And I think the sum total of the energy of the people that I exercised, that I maintained my weight, that I didn't drink, that I didn't do drugs, that I didn't smoke. These things add up to something that makes sense.

  Michelle: Let me ask you another question. Do you have a [00:35:00] spiritual practice or some kind of belief in something higher?

  Cha Mosley: I do.

  Michelle: Yeah, I think that's a big one too.

  Cha Mosley: I think that spirituality and acknowledgement of a higher entity beyond yourself. That there is a spiritual factor to this universe is extremely important. I respect everybody's belief and philosophy, so I don't get into what that should be because it's gonna be individual.

  I think any person faced with a life or death situation for themselves or their child, if they never believed in God, suddenly find themselves. Please, at the last Minute Rec, recognizing that there's something beyond yourself. And I do. I do, and you,

  Michelle: had an amazing guest who actually you should connect with if you want to speak to because you'd mentioned like speaking to a lot of practitioners. Her name is Dr. Lisa Miller. She's a psychotherapist and she she's a researcher in Columbia University and [00:36:00] she's, she basically researches the brain on spirituality and she had her own fertility journey.

  Had realized. And what they've discovered is that believing in something higher doesn't necessarily have to look any one way. It's just the idea of believing in something greater than yourself. So whatever that is, it could be the Dao, it could be, God, it could be Jesus, it could be any, anything.

  And so you basically believing in that or having that kind of faith in something greater than yourself that you can lean on. Protects you from depression, it changes your brain.

  Cha Mosley: That's very, now, that's the first time because psychotherapy in and of itself is very mind and materialistic usually. That's fascinating that she's studying the effects of the spirit

  Michelle: Yes.

  Cha Mosley: on mental health. Good for her.

  Michelle: It's fascinating. Her work's incredible. Like she's just somebody who I really admire and [00:37:00] love, like she's just a wonderful person. And, you could see that she's really got her heart into this. She loves what she does, and she feels like really passionate about it. And I understand why.

  Because it, there's a message. She's really bringing out a message into the world that is very much needed now.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah. There, there is something at play beyond just what we see here. I believe it is been demonstrated to me conclusively. Like I, I don't even believe it. I know it

  Michelle: Yes. Yeah, I love that. Thank

  you. That's

  Cha Mosley: yeah, Let me, yeah,

  Michelle: yeah that's definitive language right there. I love that because it's true. It I've even seen it with my patients once they make a connection with the spirit, baby. They just say, okay, child of mine I just wanna connect with you. Show me little signs.

  And the signs that they get. I'm telling you like two of them had signs that specifically at referenced numbers that ended up being the date [00:38:00] of birth of their child. Is that nuts or what? I was like, okay, now how do you explain that? There's no other explanation other than it is, it's so mag magnificent and beyond divine.

  Cha Mosley: It is beautiful and I tell women this too, right? When they're on their journeys, like to your point of what you're saying, I.

  say be the baby. Be the baby. Imagine that there's a being coming and it's looking for a mom and a dad and it stops over your house and there's all this crying and bickering about the fertility and all this upset and all.

  I said, would you want to come into a family like that? And not a lot of pressure, like it's just a god dang baby, right? The baby's supposed to come in and alleviate all this distress. You're dramatizing right now. No, that's not a household anybody would wanna come into or. A job, if it was a job or a career environment and somebody was peeking in watching the stick wow, that's really dramatic.

  I don't know if I want all of [00:39:00] that. Really encourage women to take a step back. Take a step back, and I know when, again, my conceptions were relatively easy, right? And I get it when a woman has been trying, she really wants the baby. I'm not trying to negate the emotional toll that can take, especially if it involves a lot of losses.

  I, I don't wanna negate that, but I do want to also. Really just point up the fact that you're trying to bring in life and you wanna bring in quality life, right? Not all beings are the same on this planet. We have murderers and we have. Saints,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: On the we, right? And so which one is yours?

  Which one is coming to you? It's true, I don't mean to be blunt, but it's, so who do you want? Who do you want? And I think that it really, you have to take a step back, maybe take a break, maybe take a vacation, and really just regroup, calm the environment and make it appealing for your baby.

  Michelle: It's [00:40:00] interesting Nancy Weiss she's, she actually is a spirit baby medium, and she ended up using embryo donors. And she said that she had she had basically like just information that came to her and she gets that a lot and she felt that's what really got her to find her embryo sisters in Atlanta where she moved randomly, but there's no random, there was like definitely something that pulled her there.

  Cha Mosley: Wait, her embryo sisters,

  Michelle: Embryo sisters. So it was embryo sisters and she ended up adopting them. And. Using them like with IVF. So it was just incredible. And one of the girls looks like her. She put a side by side picture of her when she was little and when her baby was the same or her daughter was the same age and it was insane.

  So I there's definitely like in an intelligence at work, but one of the messages that she got was that your baby wants to play you. Your baby wants you to be [00:41:00] playful, your baby wants you to play. So that it can feel an opening to come.

  Cha Mosley: Wow, that's real. It's a baby.

  Michelle: So

  Cha Mosley: baby's gonna be so vulnerable. Can't do anything, can't defend itself. You wanna come into a house full of strife where it can't relax. Or it's gotta be the solution for the happiness. Like you can't make the baby the solution for your happiness. Gotta get the happiness going.

  Chill

  Michelle: Yeah. I like your honesty too. I appreciate your honesty because I think that it is important and sometimes honesty's not gonna feel sugarcoated. It's gonna feel like sometimes it's gonna sting, if it's something that. We need to look at It's okay to challenge your thoughts. It's okay to challenge your perspective and to kinda look at it

  Cha Mosley: yeah, and it depends on the place from which it's coming, right? Like

  Michelle: right. From a good

  Cha Mosley: From a Yeah.

  it's an intention, right? There's. Nothing that's lacking understanding or compassion. But sometimes you need a third person [00:42:00] outside of the situation to look in and be like, Hey, but what about just to redirect your attention. And my intention though, direct, like I've said it before and it was, it's always been received about having to chill out. 'cause imagine the BA have you looked at what the baby would be looking at if they were looking in your house? And they're like, oh no, they never would consider.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: What would the baby think of all this?

  Michelle: Yes. And it is, it's a dance. It's not it's not something that we could just press a button. It's a dance between us and invitation, and it's like really a three-way dance. It's you, your partner, and the soul of the child coming in.

  Cha Mosley: Absolutely. I would joke with people when they would ask me like, do you think you can have a baby? I would literally joke and I'd be like, yeah, some bean could come in here and scrape an egg off the side of my uterus and make it work. I wouldn't even say it in, in the right I'd already have it sitting on the uterus, like some bean could come along and find an egg and make, make it work.

  Then he or she can have at it. But that's all I'm doing. [00:43:00] I'm not doing nothing else. And that's the baby. I got that baby came in, found an egg and made it work.

  Michelle: Incredible. That's just amazing. I just love it so much. I knew that I was gonna have the best conversation with you, and I'm telling you, like I, I was like, there's something really cool about her. Just like in general, your personality, and then on top of it, your story. And I just love the fact that you are just unapologetically like.

  Yourself and inspiring. You're just like, yeah, you can do it.

  Cha Mosley: Because you can, like if sometimes, I have to tell women now because they don't understand 'cause they see me. With hundreds of thousands of followers now, and lately I've been going viral, right? So I'm like really being pushed out there. My account's skyrocketing. They lose sight of the fact that just a few years ago, I was a vulnerable, scared lady who thought that I was gonna lose my baby.

  And the only reason why I posted anything on social media was because I was scared and it was my own [00:44:00] therapy, my own handling for myself. I am not some PR machine agent with a whole team guiding this movement. I'm evolving with it. I don't have all the messaging worked out. I don't have all the, everything is not a perfect statement.

  Half the time I'm shooting stuff on the fly or something seems interesting and I whip out my camera because I was just that lady just a few years ago that was just sitting at home scared and didn't even wanna tell anybody I was pregnant. Now you look up a few years later, you think I need to have everything all organized and all together, and all perfectly stated and said I'm sorry.

  Michelle: never perfect.

  Cha Mosley: It ain't never gonna never be perfect. I'm not gonna say never. I'm willing for this to evolve into something big where I have a PR team and it polishes up and it gets professional. But this is still a very, It's life, It's very real. It's very grassroots. I definitely. It's, I'm having a good time.

  I'm having a good time, and I do feel where if there have been times where I said something and it did hurt a lady who's still on her journey I feel for that and I [00:45:00] apologize for that. I really do. If anything was taken in a context that caused hurt, because that's the least thing that I'm trying to do.

  I'm trying to rally every lady, whether you've been trying for 10 years or 10 minutes, you can do it.

  Michelle: But you know what though? That's how it is. When you're getting to the point where your message is coming out, you're gonna have all kinds of different perspectives, reactions, and and I, that's what happens. It's just your voice is getting heard, which is an amazing thing, but I think the majority of people are actually getting inspired.

  Cha Mosley: I think So, too by, by my observational statistics,

  Michelle: Yes. Yes.

  Cha Mosley: Of my comments, things, the favorable comments. Far exceed any negative ones. But I'm one of those people where I'm very capable of self-inspection and 'cause I really do wanna help every woman. I don't wanna alienate. I don't care if I alienate medical practitioners who don't like my message.

  I actually don't care about that. But I do care about the ladies in the trenches because I love being a mom [00:46:00] so much. It's been the most beautiful experience. Like I sometimes I just stare at my daughter. I still can't believe she's there. Like I'll just be watching her play and I'll look at her dad and I'd be like, can you believe we did that? Can you believe like we look at her like we have a daughter. I'm still just in awe that she's here. And I want this for every woman because I believed that I wasn't gonna have a baby. I had written it off. I was content to live life not being a mom. And to some degree you have to be willing to do that, but I'm so grateful that my contentment didn't win and that God, to be a mom. There's so much about being a woman and about our bodies and everything. I feel you don't even get to understand until you carry life and bear life and I just feel made more woman. I feel way more feminine since having her. And it's another level of love that you can't experience anywhere until you hold your baby.

  And I don't care if that's an adopted baby, A donor egg baby. Your baby, Right.

  You decide that's your baby.

  [00:47:00] There's just kind of love. It is just, it's being a mom. It's being a mom. And I wanted so bad for every woman and I get so angry when I see like how much discouragement there is for them for their femininity and their God-given right to bring life. And then I look at it and I'm like. The over 40 mom is a valuable type of mom. We remember life before cell phones. We remember life before the internet. There is a wisdom and an experience that we bring that's almost gonna be lost. It's gonna be lost, but there's a grounding that I think that we can bring to future generations that's still needed and very important. We're still healthy, we're not dying. And I just hated that women are so discouraged. I'm like, what the fuck?

  Michelle: yeah. It, there's a lot of messaging out there that's. So it's not good, it's not healthy, and it's so unconscious, like it's just expected [00:48:00] and it's, that bothers me because that's not, it became like the status quo and it shouldn't be.

  Cha Mosley: it shouldn't. So with that, I wanna reverse a question on you. I know we're coming up on our time, but I'm a big fan of acupuncture. How do you apply acupuncture to fertility? Can you talk a little bit about that?

  Michelle: Of course. So with, for, with any kind of acupuncture for anybody, we look at patterns. So the first thing I do is I always look at, sorry, there's like a bug flying around. I always look at patterns first. So if a person has like blood deficiency, we wanna tonify or if they're really deficient with energy chi life force vitality.

  If they have blockages, if certain areas, if they have like blood stagnation. So we look at like the overall,

  Cha Mosley: how do you look at it? Do you require blood work or do you have scanners? Without

  Michelle: no.

  Cha Mosley: Do you do?

  Michelle: look at tongues. We look at, we feel pulses. Also, honestly, the biggest one is for me questioning [00:49:00] and also sensing their energy and kind of like being around them and looking at them. Probably even more so than tongue and pulse, believe it or not. Like I can immediately, you can start to get a feel.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: So based on just their symptoms and what they feel, you start to map it out. And this is why my initial is always like virtual. I have I ask them questions, I really just get to know them based on their voice, based on their skin, based on all of these different things. Then you look at them as a whole.

  And then once, so you look at like the big picture, you're addressing that. But then also I will put a lot of points locally on. The pelvic area, so that calls for more blood because it's a controlled injury. When you get like needles in it basically tells the immune system, Hey, something's happening, but it's nothing dangerous.

  But it does wake it up so it will bring more blood flow to that area,

  Cha Mosley: okay.

  Michelle: which you could literally see around the needle. You could see it like a red because it's [00:50:00] bringing more blood flow to that area. And it has actually been researched and shows that. The uterus does get more blood flow like the uterine artery does bring in more blood after acupuncture.

  So it's really fascinating. And then I

  Cha Mosley: And I don't wanna take that data. I don't wanna take that data for granted. So let's talk about the uterus and

  more blood flow. Why does the uterus need more blood? What does that do?

  Michelle: Okay, so then it helps not just the uterus, people think it helps with the uterine lining. Yes, a hundred percent It does, but it also helps. Ovaries. And one of the things that happens with aging ovaries, aging eggs and the thing that kind of brings it to like the quality and decline is that the capillaries stop being flexible and they stop bringing as much blood flow.

  So the blood flow is a big part of that. So when you're bringing in, even if you're eating the best diet. If [00:51:00] your digestion's off, which we treat, you wanna get the digestion in order so that it's able to really convert the nutrients that you're eating into eventually blood.

  But then if you don't have the blood flow, how is the nutrients gonna impact or arrive to the ovaries and support the egg quality?

  And then, so it takes a couple of months, of course and it starts to come to life.

  Cha Mosley: Okay. I love this. I love this because this is I'm gonna get your take. 'cause I love asking functional medicine doctors this. You're an acupuncturist. So a MH doctors, so many women, excuse me. So many women write to me in my DM doctor said I have low a MH. Doctor said I have low A MH, I can't get pregnant. What do you say?

  Michelle: Not true. You can get pregnant with a very low a MH and I've seen it happen. All it means is that you have less but that doesn't mean that you can't get pregnant. We focus, especially in my work on egg quality, you need one good egg. That's [00:52:00] it. And it even in menopause, women still have some eggs.

  They're just dormant. Yeah, you could totally it doesn't just because you have low mh now, why do they focus on it so much? They focus on it so much because. Most of the time when you're going to a fertility clinic, they're focusing on numbers because the more they have as many people know, like you, you get the eggs and then the eggs only certain amounts fertilized, and then it dwindles down until you finally get the embryo and then the embryos that actually are viable.

  So it it keeps dwindling down. So for them and their stats. Unfortunately it is an important factor that they pay attention to. They want their statistics to stay high 'cause that's what sets them apart as a fertility clinic. And so in order for that success, one of the things that they focus on is the numbers.

  Can we produce a lot? From the retrieval. So can we retrieve a lot of eggs because that's going to [00:53:00] help the success? So that's what they're looking at. They're looking at it from an IVF perspective. However what I've seen in my experience is that if you have a low A MH, you're actually more likely to have a successful natural pregnancy, even if at older age.

  Cha Mosley: Interesting.

  Michelle: Yeah. And it happens to people who have tried for years and haven't had success, have even tried with IVF, and then finally give up for a little bit, come back to themselves and then fall pregnant naturally.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah, the number of women that have written to me that after IVF didn't work and they were tired of the stress and they just said, forget it. I don't care anymore, and then they relax and then they go get pregnant. Like I get that story.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: They just stop with all the trying and then they go get pregnant.

  It's funny just what relaxing will do, but. I appreciate you sharing that insight as well, because I'm just like, what a, what woman? So worried about A MH. I had one practitioner said, listen, [00:54:00] you're over 40. Your A MH is supposed to be low. You're over 40. Eggs are, Yeah. You lost a lot of eggs, so what? Who cares?

  You

  Michelle: of they're just responding to what the professionals are telling them.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway,

  Michelle: And there was even a study that shows that low mh high FSH doesn't predict pregnancy outcomes. So pretty interesting.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah.

  My, my last A MH test I got said it was like 0.17. I'm like I got pregnant three years ago. I don't know much how much higher it was

  then, but it Sure. One through the roof ladies and I still got pregnant.

  Michelle: Exactly. And it happens. It really does.

  Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: So well.

  Michelle: So for people who have not discovered you, I'm sure a lot of people know who you are, but if they haven't and they wanna check out your Instagram, I definitely love, that's how I found Chia. I loved, I love her Instagram. It's amazing. You share a lot of great things.

  So how can people find you? What are your offerings?

  Cha Mosley: Yes, so you can find [00:55:00] me on the standard platforms Instagram, TikTok, YouTube pregnancy over 40 on all of those. I'm also on Facebook just under my name, chia Mosley. That's, it's my personal profile that mistakenly blew up. So it's just under my name. It's not under a handle. I encourage women to make their way to my video section on my YouTube channel because I've done interviews with many practitioners about preventing miscarriages. IVF and not IVF, sorry, the role of herbs in pregnancy and preparing your body for pregnancy. Like I've interviewed a lot of practitioners, I'm gonna interview you. We're gonna reverse this flow. So I definitely encourage women to do that. That's free information. As well. I do have a private. Subscription community that I encourage women to enjoy. I have so many dms that I can no longer just sit at my computer and talk to everyone. So I created a subscription community. Those are the ladies that give my time and attention. We have monthly meet and greets. I bring in practitioners just for the ladies.

  Once a month we have more private [00:56:00] sessions and they can ask questions. And so that's what I am offering. Now. I have other things up my sleeve for future. But this is what I have going on now, but I think I'm pretty easy to find at this point,

  Michelle: awesome chia. This was amazing. This is better than I even expected, and I had, I was just so excited to talk to you anyway to begin with. So you just have amazing energy, such a great attitude on life, very inspiring. Like you're not just your story, but you as a person. So I really appreciate you coming on today.

  Cha Mosley: I appreciate you having me, and I appreciate all those kind words. I feel

  Michelle: It's true, genuine

  Cha Mosley: I believe you. I believe you. Thank you so much.

  Michelle: wonderful. I'm gonna.

Ep 379 Pregnant at 46 and Mother at 47 with Ch-a Mosley

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Ch-a Mosley (@pregnancyoverforty), the inspiring voice behind Pregnancy Over 40. Cha shares her incredible story of naturally conceiving at 46 and welcoming her daughter at 47 after being told that motherhood later in life was unlikely.

In this conversation, we talk about the realities of fertility after 40, the mindset shifts that can support a fertility journey, and how lifestyle factors such as nutrition, movement, emotional health, and reducing environmental toxins can influence reproductive health. Cha opens up about her experience with miscarriage, finding hope again, and why she believes women deserve more empowering messages about fertility and age.

We also explore holistic fertility support, including how acupuncture can improve blood flow, regulate the nervous system, and support overall reproductive health. This episode is a powerful reminder that statistics do not define your fertility journey and that there are many factors that can influence fertility and natural conception. 

Key Takeaways:

• Pregnancy after 40 is possible and fertility statistics do not define your personal fertility journey.

• Mindset, hope, and emotional resilience can play an important role in supporting fertility.

• Lifestyle choices such as whole foods, regular movement, and reducing toxins may support egg quality and hormonal health.

• Acupuncture may improve circulation to the uterus and ovaries which can support reproductive health.

• Creating a supportive emotional and physical environment may help support conception and pregnancy
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
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• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome back to the podcast, Amy. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Aimee: you, Michelle. I think this is what my third time Is it? Yeah.

  Michelle: maybe fourth, I feel like.

  Aimee: exciting. Thank you.

  Michelle: So first of all, congratulations on the new edition of Yes, you Can Get Pregnant, which is so exciting. We had a little pre-talk and I'm very excited to start picking your brain on that.

  Aimee: Yeah, it's been an exciting revision. I think, you know, as I was saying to you before we started recording. It was about 10 years. It's really 11 years since I wrote the first version. And it's, it's really awesome to see. I mean, it's not awesome to see the increased rise in, in fertility. Challenges like that, you know, we've gone up like at least another 10 to 20% of women impacted. [00:03:00] And, and now male factor is a huge piece. But what I enjoyed seeing was so much of the content, you know, and the recommendations that I made 11 years ago that you and I have been making since we've, been out of grad school. all about living in accordance with the DAO and getting back in touch with nature and, and doing things like simply.

  And like circadian rhythm, which we didn't really even have a term for. I guess we did have a term, but we didn't really use that or nervous system work, all of that. What's, what I found validating I think is, is the amount of research that's come out in the last 10 years. Kind of validating all the things, like validating, no, we do need more natural light.

  The blue light is doing damage. You know, sperm health clearly has. Has significantly declined. The environmental toxins are, are really seriously doing damage, you know, ultra processed foods. So there's just this vast volume of research now that backs up much of what we were taught and, and have been, you know, [00:04:00] educating the others on for, for, you know, if we count Chinese medicine for thousands of years, you know, so that part is, is fun, you know, to just.

  You know, I was telling you before we went live too, like my, my citations and resources in the book like went up 10 x if not more. Like my editor was like, we have to actually just have its own PDF and people can download for this. There's way too many citations in the book. Like, I can't, I didn't, I didn't account for this. So, you know, that's fun. And then I increased, you know, content around, preparing for IVF, it's has its own chapter now. Improving egg and sperm quality over the age of 35 has its own chapter now. Ovarian rejuvenation. I did a chapter with Dr. Zaha Murphy and talked about ozone and PRP and HBO and laser and peptides and, you know, so lots of, I think, you know, we've really brought all of the newer information to the plate and into the book, and so that's exciting and I really, I hope.

  You know, it's [00:05:00] used as, almost like an encyclopedia of resources. Like, just got so much information and, and really, so I think still has that, that deeply empowering message of like, you have a lot of power here and here, you know, here are the ways you can connect the dots for yourself because, you know, again, as we were discussing before we went live, that, we now know, and I think that the, the research really supports this, that most all unexplained fertility challenges.

  Have an explanation and, you know, they're rooted in inflammation, immune disorders, you know, maybe structural issues. not just all your eggs are bad because you're over the age of 35, which can't wait for that stigma to just leave the room.

  Michelle: A hundred percent. Oh my God. Totally. I feel the same way. And it's exciting. It's, what's exciting is that we're coming on a lot of amazing research and new technology. PRP is exciting. I definitely wanna pick your brain on that. Because I've heard you know, there's, there's obviously, I've had doctors that were like, no, maybe it's [00:06:00] not safe for the ovaries.

  I know Dr. Mur, he's had a lot of great success with it. And you work

  Aimee: Yeah. And then there was a recent meta analysis that was not, you know, he did not do that research. That was someone looking at all the research that's been going on, right. Meta analysis, obviously. Showing. Yeah, it, it has marked impacts on improving a MH antral follicle count, BLASTY rate IVF outcomes.

  You know, and so I still feel, and what I see clinically and feel good about saying is in, I think 50%, five zero of the cases that do the ovarian PRP see positive benefits and 50% just don't see any benefits. But I don't see negatives.

  Michelle: Okay. That's amazing. So what are some of the positive benefits you've seen?

  Aimee: The A MH going up the antra follicle count. More, you know, if women are doing IVF, you see? Just more get fertilized more. Get blast. Get to

  Michelle: Wow, amazing. I've seen, I've seen that [00:07:00] happen. I've seen it where I've talked to people up north that went to see him and they were trying to conceive naturally and, and it wasn't working for years. And then they went to see him and a couple of months later, 'cause it does take, I guess a couple of months for it to really like show up.

  And then, and then they would get pregnant like naturally. So I'm like, okay, well, you know, obviously must have done something. Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: think it, it, you know, it is your own growth factors and so, so I think for all the listeners, you know, human growth hormone was like kind of the hot ticket for a while. Like add HDH to your protocols. This is your own HDH. That's how I would look at that. You know, these are your own growth factors and that's, I think that's even better than borrowing from, you know, however these, the human growth hormone is being made or, or, or created and where it's coming from. then, you know, it, it is basically like the other thing that we really know now and can confidently say is we don't run out of eggs. Like, yes, the pool is declining, but we now know that even [00:08:00] women in menopause, and this is, you know.

  I think, I think there's multiple research studies that show the same thing. At this point, women in menopause still have about a thousand eggs left in their ovaries. And so it's not about running out, it's not about the pool. I mean the pool declines. I'm not, not saying that, but it, you don't just wake up and one day they're all gone.

  It's really about they start losing communication. They go dormant. And what the PRP seems to be doing is waking up those dormant follicles.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then

  Aimee: the game, not creating new ones. Now there are people doing, and not Murphy's one of them, but there's other people as well doing stem cell outside of the US 'cause that's not currently legal.

  That theoretically is actually causing you to create new eggs in your ovaries.

  Michelle: That's incredible. Let's talk about that a little bit. I know it's not in the US but I'm just really curious. So what is that technology? 'cause that sounds really cool.

  Aimee: mean, they're using placental stem cells, so they're buying them from, I think there's a bank in Colorado actually [00:09:00] that is doing it. You can get 'em in different places like Panama, a big place. I think Dubai is another place. And these are so placental sorry. Placental cord blood stem cells. That these are apparently it's the word like omnipotent, like they can become anything and they don't have to be your cord blood stem cells.

  They can be anyone's, it's just like a bank of these stem cells. And then you, so you do the PRP, so you draw the blood, do the platelets, you're mixing that in with the stem cells and then injecting that into the ovaries and then. New eggs should be theoretically created. It's hard to know for certain if that's happening because I don't think anyone's done like a test of like staining the old ones to see what happens with the new ones.

  You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're human trials that that's kind of hard to do. Perhaps it's being done on the animal model, but then people would argue, you know, is that the same? So I have seen girls with like POI, [00:10:00] you know, like they're young, they premature ovarian insufficiency, like they got nothing, they're not cycling, that kind of thing.

  Or women in menopause and it seems to be kind of bringing them out of that. Again, not working for everyone, and there's really not enough. I haven't seen enough of my clients do it clinically for me to have like a, a solid, like, you know, go and do it. I, and Dr. Murphy would say he likes to like layer it in, you know, first to start with regular PRP.

  Then he does the adipose, which is where he's getting stem cells from your own fat cells.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: And that can be done in the us. And then there's the stem cells that's happening, you know, for him in The Bahamas. And there's also people doing mitochondrial replacement therapy. There's like CN Ys doing that in Mexico.

  Doc, there's whatever doctor his name is in Albania is doing it. Me, he's doing it. There's a guy in Spain doing it. That's where you're borrowing mitochondria from a donor egg [00:11:00] and taking out your. Older mitochondria or malfunctioning mitochondria and switching that. So it's still your genetics. You still need donor eggs, but you're not borrowing biology and genetics.

  You're just borrowing mitochondria

  Michelle: Right. Which has a different set of genetics anyway

  Aimee: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle: your own body.

  Aimee: Yeah, so it's you know, the, the technology is cool. I think it's moving at a rapid pace, like from what I can see. I also there was recently a post Dak Shepherd had said something recently, like, I'll, I told my girls that when they turn 18, I'll, I'll help, I'll pay for them to freeze their eggs and any, you know, that went viral.

  And I think you said it like on people.com or something like that. And you know, I, I did a story on it 'cause I was like, I think, I think this is great. Like, I think a, it a, first of all, it's nice that, you know, he has the money that he can do that not everybody has those resources and the ability, but b, by the time his children are 18, that's like another decade or so, if not more.

  We might not need eggs. We might be able to generate them just from any of your DNA. So a swab inside the [00:12:00] cheek. And then when I first wrote, yes, you can get pregnant, I had interviewed Dr. Hugh Taylor. He is, I think he still is the head of reproductive medicine at Yale. And he said to me, he's like, yeah, probably in 10 to 15 years I'll actually be out of a job.

  He's like, because we'll be able to make e eggs from swabbing the inside of a cheek. Like we'll be able to just generate eggs for, for you at whatever age you are inside a lab and then fertilize that, make an embryo and that is being done. I don't know that it's been done human wise, but it's definitely being done in a lab.

  I'm not sure whose eggs they're using, some mammal, but that's.

  Michelle: That's fascinating.

  Aimee: too. Yeah,

  Michelle: Well, they're mammals. I mean, we're mammals, you know, so there's gotta be, if it works, there's gotta be some way to make it work on humans as well.

  Aimee: And I think that's part of the research that's going on that I think is also really amazing and I hope, I hope everyone who's listening gets, you know, time to have access to it, but like studying, why are we the only mammals that actually can.

  Procreate after a [00:13:00] certain age. Like why do our eggs go dormant? What is that piece? You know, there's a little bit looking to the kisspeptin and that and that peptide, and apparently that, I guess, declines with age and that keeps the ovarian reserve abundant. I've had some patients use the Kisspeptin peptide.

  I've not seen. Any success with that. But, but kind of researching why, why do we downregulate our reproduction at a certain time in our life, and why do men not, you know? And so looking at other mammals trying to understand that you know, I think it's, I think it's. Interesting and cool. You know, I, I remember not that long ago getting kind of bullied and attacked on Instagram for saying like, do we run, really run outta eggs?

  Like, are we really running out of eggs? And and a couple, you know, doctors came after me for like, spreading misinformation and I was like, but it's not, there's a guy, Jonathan Tilley, he's been studying this for over 20 years now. Out of Northwestern or Northeastern. I always confuse them. But his name is definitely Jonathan [00:14:00] Tilley, and he's the head of biology at one of those universities.

  And he's showing like, no, there's ovarian stem cells that we have. You can see people that like, went through chemo or radiation on their ovaries, but then somehow we're still able to produce follicles and have children Like that doesn't make any sense. And so, you know, targeting and like really trying to understand what else is going on, you know, we also know women haven't been a part of research, you know, until very recently.

  And so.

  Michelle: This is a big deal. Like people don't realize.

  Aimee: Yeah, we based that theory of like, eggs are finite. You're running out of eggs on research from the 1960s that looked at Reese's monkeys and rats. It was never repeated in a human model for almost 40 years. They literally, it was a mathematical model looking at rats and Reese's monkeys over time and saying, oh, okay, so the reserve does go down.

  So that happens to women. That's it. You run outta eggs. That, that was the theory. No one questioned it. It's, it's an, no one has questioned it until fairly recently, and I think now we're getting a lot more information out there [00:15:00] and, and some of these medical facts are shifting and changing. I, you're still gonna run into the.

  Old school docs who were just gonna kind of, you know, dig their heels in. I mean, I think too though, aging does age us, you know, so our mitochondria become less effective and cellular division less effective. So we're more prone to chromosomal or genetic issues the older we are. But I don't think it's definitive just 'cause you're 47, you have X amount of, you know, chances or x amount of chromosomal things that are gonna happen.

  No, that's not the case. We can all age differently. So it's like the I, I tell people whenever they like push me on things, I'm like, just start looking into the world of regenerative medicine. Like that's where you should start. Because if it hasn't yet touched fertility yet, you know, I mean it's starting to, I think with doctors like me and things like that, but, that's where it's at. I mean, we're seeing this, we're seeing it with the peptide explosion. We're seeing it with, you know, just the anti-aging, like the mitochondrial, excuse me, the mitochondrial explosion. You know, we're learning more about food and [00:16:00] environment and toxins and, and they're aging us. I think one of the studies that I pulled for the new version of, yes, you can't get pregnant I might not quote it exactly, but it was the exposure to ultra processed foods and a MH levels and that women who ate.

  More ultra processed foods than those who did not had much lower A MH. And when you removed the ultra processed foods from their diet, within three months, their A MH on average doubled.

  Michelle: Wow, that's so significant. That's like not just like

  Aimee: That's insane. But like, yet we're told a MH, you know, that's it. This is your number. You know, like the way they used to talk about FSH they don't, not as much, you know, they don't say that as much of, oh, I can change, you know, or as it used to be, like, this is the gold standard. It never changes.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a snapshot in time. It's so crazy. But you know what's really funny, Amy? I actually had the same question as you about, are we really born with all the exit we'll ever have? And I remember seeing a study that was done on a cancer drug. I don't know, you probably are familiar [00:17:00] with it, where they used it. I think it had to do with the ovaries, but they noticed that the ovaries would have more follicles, and they said,

  Aimee: like, and Jonathan Tilly, that's what he's looking at. That's the research. 'cause it started with, that's what triggered the research. It started with this cancer, these cancer patients where they were like, wait, they should, the ovaries should be dead like this. There's no, why are they, how do they have cells?

  How, how are they actively making follicles? Because I think it was direct chemo or radiation. Directed at the ovaries, it was like ovarian cancer patients, right? I think that's,

  Michelle: Something like that. It was something to do with it, like I think it was ovarian cancer, and then they weren't, of course, expecting that to be a result

  Aimee: Yeah. I think I, you know, I think truthfully, there's so much we don't know, and I would much rather everyone say that than to say, no, this is. This is the truth. This is what we function on. This is finite. You know that, that [00:18:00] doesn't show intelligence, right? I think there's, there's some study out there or some quote that's like, you know, the number one way to, to like see a lack of intelligence is, is to see people who just like, are unwilling to see it be another way.

  You know, it's just like, okay, you, you are not thinking outside the box. And that's what I always tell our, our patients of like, okay, you're clearly not getting the results you want. We need to find a new team who's willing to think outside the box, who's willing to try different things. Like that's, that's what we need.

  We can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. But then also like, you know, talking about aging, like then how do we define, like you and I both have had women in their late forties do it. Like how, how, how do you define that then? How do you say it? Can they just be these anomalies?

  But you and I, you know, if we are talking about the relative population, we have smaller practices, you know what I mean? But like. All of us in the acupuncture world, we all probably are like, yeah, I've had 47 year olds. I've had 48 year olds. You know, I've seen like Murphy's had 50 year olds, 51 year olds with their own eggs.

  Michelle: Well, the oldest

  Aimee: that possible? It's

  Michelle: years old, naturally had a baby, Don Brooks [00:19:00] in England. And and I always compare it to the Roger Banister effect, where the guy wins the seven minute the four minute mile. He breaks the four minute mile, and then like months after that, a bunch of people break it.

  Like, why? Why did nobody break it up until somebody broke it?

  Aimee: And I think about that too in my practice. I feel like the more, almost like geared in I've gotten, or the more I've seen and the more hope. I used to think like 44, 45 was kind of the cutoff. And now I'm like, Hmm, I, I've had 48 year olds do it, so

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: why can't you? And also like.

  You know, and I know we're reaching all these different conversations and you and I are both, you know, holistic experts, but I also think perimenopausal support the right way. a woman still trying to conceive, using things like bioidentical, HRT can be extremely beneficial and we maintain the cycle, like we're using estrogen when we're supposed to, progesterone, when we're supposed to, if they need testosterone or DHEA.

  Obviously we're testing, we're not guessing. I'm [00:20:00] not saying go out there and start taking bioidentical HRT, but. That. I mean, even for me, I'm 51. My cycle has been wonky this year for the first time, but up until, and I've been playing with Bioidentical HRT for probably three to four years, you know, and I don't have any. My FSH is still in a good range. I don't have any hot flashes, I don't have vaginal dryness. I still have a sex drive, like all these things. So like, I think what I started to do and play around with was like I'm extending things like I'm giving myself and then hopefully I'm kind of missing this like big dip, right?

  Which we know is what comes with all the health events, but or negative health events. But I think about for our women with perimenopause, I mean, what we were doing, even from just a natural perspective is like, yeah, we're just nourishing and improving blood flow and circulation. We're, we're preventing things from kind of stopping and slowing down.

  We're keeping them going. And then if you wanna add in a little, a little HRT, that's bioidentical.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the game

  Michelle: It does for sure. A hundred percent. And it's something that we have available. And I do think that [00:21:00] obviously the bioidentical aspect of it makes a difference too. But yeah, why not use what we have and it, and now they're finding that it's not as bad as they originally said,

  Aimee: we knew that all

  Michelle: is a big deal.

  Aimee: at, we're looking at one study based on one

  Michelle: this is what happens.

  Aimee: they extrapolated it across the board and it's like, God. And that's like, that's what I mean of like, take some responsibility. You know what I mean? Like, that's unfair. That is so unfair what you did.

  It's so unfair.

  Michelle: it is. But it's like who has the mic? That's really what it is. I mean,

  Aimee: loud enough. Yeah. And who's got the deeper pockets? You know, I mean, it's layers and layers. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So I wanted to talk to you about rep rapamycin. That's another hot topic that's coming out about older women trying to conceive.

  Aimee: Yeah, it impacts the mTOR pathways, right? Which yeah, I might not know the entire pathway, but basically helps improve mitochondrial function. And [00:22:00] it's a drug that's been used for organ transplants for many, many, many years. People have started playing around with it for fertility. Think Dr. Amy, the Egg Whisperer, not me started using it in her practice.

  I think she's doing something like three to four grams a week.

  Michelle: So, yeah, at a much lower dose,

  Aimee: lower dose, like almost like a

  Michelle: than, than what it

  Aimee: kind of, it's considered at this point like a longevity medicine. Right. And so, but then there was a recent study, so there's now two studies that are going on, I think one at Columbia here in New York.

  And there was another one going on someplace else, but they published and it. It was still a decent size of women. I think a couple hundred. And they did one milligram of rapamycin per day for 21 to 28 days, kind of depending on the woman. And then they compared 'em to a control group. But what's cool is they also had comparisons to previous IVF cycles for these women.

  The women in the rapamycin group had more eggs retrieved, [00:23:00] more blast assist, and I think higher pregnancy rates. So much so like that. The day that study came out, I actually was in the clinic with Mur and he, I ran into him and he was like, that's it, rapamycin for everyone. Like, he was like, I'm sold, like sold.

  And you can, you know, I mean, again. I don't think everybody should be treating themselves like this, but you can get that online.

  Michelle: get

  Aimee: place you

  Michelle: Ageless Rx.

  Aimee: Yeah, h srx man. You can get it. And I think you, you have to be smart though. You're not supposed to conceive while you're on it.

  You do it before a cycle or before, like before an IF cycle or before a natural conception cycle. You're not doing it during, so you have to think about that. You have to take time off. I strongly would recommend though, that someone is managing the case and you're not just doing it on your own. And then, then how many cycles do you repeat it for?

  That I don't know. I think this study was just that one clip of the 21 to 28 days, so I'm not sure about like, the way Dr. Amy's doing. It's a little different, right? Where these people, they're just on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Right?

  Aimee: And I can't speak to that, you know. But she's been, you know, she was the first one to use h human growth hormone in California, and then she hopped on the PRP bandwagon like very early on.

  And then she's, she's been the first one using rapamycin as well.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then there's something else that piqued my interest is ly. So like things like ottin you just take once a month.

  Aimee: Oh, the fi satin, is that what you said?

  Michelle: Ottin, yeah. You take it once a month, I think for three or five days, depending on the, the product. And it helps get rid of c senescent cells, zombie cells.

  Aimee: We just, where we, we just did redid rejuve repair, you know, the, the supplements that I have with me and Mark and we're adding Cetin at like the, the daily, like the regular low level dose to it because it's very promising, you know, or it's interesting, I'll say, you know, but that was, we had a call with our formulator it's gotta be at least six months ago, and he said to us, he was like, Cetin is the next one [00:25:00] you're going to hear the most about.

  From a mitochondrial perspective, from like a lytic perspective. And there's a couple of cool sites. What's the one? It's oral peptides oh my God. Health Jevity and it's Health. Jevity G with G. And it's health jev.com. You can put it in the show notes, but they have some really awesome

  Michelle: rev Genetics

  Aimee: different

  Michelle: or Health Gen. Oh, okay.

  Aimee: Health, but it's all these really smart PhDs and it's all oral.

  Michelle: Oh,

  Aimee: they have the BPC 1 57, they have the PEA, they have, they have like a re in, like they have some kind of lytic multi kind of thing.

  You know, they're, they're not

  Michelle: Amazing.

  Aimee: and there's also not a ton of data around for it, but.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: Cool. Interesting. But I agree. It's like these things, you know, like even as astaxanthin, like we've known about that one, but that's another one that I think deserves

  Michelle: Antioxidant. Yeah, very, very good one. And also what I saw the studies on Odin was [00:26:00] that in, I think it was rats, it brought back ovulation or delayed menopause or Arian aging. And then there was also studies on endometriosis as well.

  Aimee: Oh really? Well, because like also because we know it's like the inflammation is crushing the mitochondria. It's crushing the quality. And so I think that's what it's doing. It's kind of like bringing things back online. It's almost like what we saw with the NMN or the NAD, you know? It's like, okay, it delayed menopausal, right?

  And like menopausal rats came, mice came back online and started ovulating again. So, you know, it's also to be argued of like, okay, but does it. Mean much in the context of just taking this one single nutrient. I don't know. That's what we don't know, you know? But it's also, you know, in the book too, that's what I did.

  I created these kind of like mitochondrial supplement stacks, you know, so like not taking everything every day, you know, and just kind of how to stack them and, and when, and [00:27:00] based on the current data and the dosing, which. It was cool and fun because it's also a lot, like, I always think about our girls and like how many supplements they're taking or who's doing IVs and injections and things like that.

  It's like, oh my gosh, it's a lot. I think the BPC 1 57 is pretty cool. That definitely has like an overall healing capacity,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: you know, and, and kind of like tissue regeneration

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: maybe regeneration is too, too promising, but, you know, tissue repair.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: That, that's been around the longest. So it's like, you know, I know some doctors who are using that, like hands down, that's in my practice for any, any gut protocol that I need to do, it's gonna heal the lining.

  Michelle: that injected

  Aimee: What was that?

  Michelle: injection

  Aimee: Or even orally, like how I found out about, he was through a, a physician friend who he does anti-aging medicine, and he was the one who told me, he connected me with them and he was like, he's like, I use their BPC 1 5 7. They have one with like PEA in it.

  And he was like, I've never seen. [00:28:00] Gut health heal faster.

  Michelle: Wow. Wow.

  Aimee: and he's been around a very long time. And, and even like Hyman and you know, Tony Robbins has his centers now too. They're, they're all connected to like one of these oral peptide companies, you know, and the second, the peptides are illegal in the us these, these companies will all start making the actual injections.

  Like right now, the biggest thing you have to be aware of is the injections that you're taking. If you go to like one of these wellness clinics and they have the BPC 1 5 7, or they have, you know, the Kisspeptin or. The Ella they are importing it from another country. A lot of the times that country is China and then they're reconstituting it in their labs. You wanna make sure that it's not peptides that are for research purposes, but they're peptides that have actually been like tested for endotoxins and things like that. So I think it's called pharmaceutical grade versus research grade. But none of these peptides [00:29:00] are technically legal in the us So they like, if you're getting them, you like, and we're not talking about GLP ones, we're talking about these other ones.

  If you're getting them, you really wanna know the source. So that's why I feel safer with my clients saying, go to hge, take their oral stuff. Like is it, is it probably a 10th as effective? Yes. But I don't know. It's still probably doing something. Yeah. And even for us with the, the cetin like sourcing that and, and kind of understanding the dosing and all of that, like sure.

  Maybe by the time the new repair product comes out, we'll we'll have it available in injections as well, but not everybody's down for that. And it's also can be really expensive. I don't

  Michelle: Yeah, it's, it's a lot more tough to

  Aimee: Yeah, I looked into this Ella and I think through Ageless Rx, and it's like I could get a three month supply for like a thousand dollars.

  I was like, well, that's expensive, you

  Michelle: is, that's nuts. Yeah. Very expensive. Yeah. You have to make it realistic for people to really do consistently. 'Cause otherwise it's just, it's, it's tough.

  Aimee: And then also we [00:30:00] just don't honestly have enough data. So we can't say this for certain is gonna be the thing that gets you your baby. We can't, no one can and any, if anybody is,

  Michelle: Run for the hills.

  Aimee: It is like, I mean, I, before we talked, we, we share some clients and it's like this one client who came to me, like, it's, it's a, it's a colleague or a friend that has this like med spa and literally sent her home with this list of like, these are all the peptides I can inject you with so that you can have a, a better IVF next time.

  And she, I'm happy, sent it to me and asked me for my feedback. And I was like, oh, I a how much is this gonna cost you? But b. None that this is guaranteed. Like, it's like I, let's, let's be honest with ourselves, you know? And then so we kind of just picked and choose what we thought would maybe be smart to try.

  But we also don't know how everyone is gonna react, you know, just like anything.

  Michelle: [00:31:00] Yeah, for sure. And then what else did I wanna ask? I was gonna ask, so talk about peptides. Actually, let's kind of go to that. 'cause we, we brushed upon a couple of different ones and what are peptides for people who are not familiar with what they are and how can they help?

  Aimee: technically exist in our body, right? They're proteins and chains of proteins that exist in our body, and then what we're doing is. Taking them in at much higher doses, but they're technically, like, they're synergistic, is how I would look at it with our body and our function. So these were isolated compounds that were like, oh, you know, like rapamycin, oh, this impacts the mTOR pathway.

  We know this for a fact, so we're gonna use it here. So it's, you know, it's created based on physiology. And technically should be safe. It's more like the, the sourcing and the dosing and the individual [00:32:00] client.

  Michelle: So there's different types that do have different functions.

  Aimee: Oh, they all have different functions, right? Like, I mean, the GLP one is the most common, right? So we know it's working on these GLP one receptors, which is helping with insulin regulation in the body. You know, it's a metabolic and it's, I think it's magic for the people who need it, you know? We were talking about that before we went live, and it's like.

  Any of my clients, like it's being used more and more. I think infertility because so many of our girls have insulin resistance, which is why we've been working on diet and lifestyle with them for so long, and when to eat and how to eat and how much to eat, right? We're fixing insulin resistance is what we've been doing.

  Now. There's this drug that can do it pretty fast, you know, and so. But you really, really wanna know that you need it because if you take it and you don't need it, it could backfire. If you take it and you don't follow the right diet and the right lifestyle, it could backfire. And we know that from a JLP one 'cause it's been out for a very long time.

  But this, this is the longest. It's being like the, i I would [00:33:00] say the most amount of people it's being used on in a short period of time. It seems like everyone's taking it. You know, I worry about that long-term repercussions. There's a lot we don't know. You know, I'd liken that to, you know, some, some said vaccines, same thing.

  You know, where you're like, oh, I don't, I don't know that I'm playing around with that. Vaccines are different than peptides, but just that same thing where I'm like, I don't have enough longitudinal data. I need to collect more information. But like I think GLP ones are a good example. Like, we're learning the best way to live your life while taking it.

  So not just that you inject yourself and that's the quick fix and you never have to do anything else. If you do that, I think you can have negative repercussions for sure.

  Michelle: And also the dosage we were talking about that too. In some cases people would benefit from a microdose,

  Aimee: Yeah. I,

  Michelle: rather than having like a really high dose.

  Aimee: I just leave you, I'm sorry. Like a low and slow kind of situation, you know, I think it's much more important. Yeah, and I have girls that, you know, are very insulin resistant. Maybe metformin was what was recommended [00:34:00] to them prior. They're trying, the GLP ones, they're seeing a good difference.

  But same thing, you know, we're, we're staying at. Either the, the starting dose or the microdosing. I mean, I'm not a physician. I can't manage that and I can't prescribe that. But I've learned enough and I work with the physician. And then we are also looking at labs, you know, so, like for instance, I just saw a girl's labs today and they were thinking about giving her, gLP one for suspected insulin resistance. Her lectin and her insulin are low. I mean, they're below a three each. Like, she's, she's actually the opposite of the case. Like she, if you give it to her, it's gonna shut her down.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: gonna go offline because everybody's gonna be like, oh my God.

  Like, it's, it's almost like, at least, at least from what I understand and know, that's how I see that it would go down. I, I could be wrong. I haven't seen enough of these cases, but it seems to work really well for the people with. High fasting glucose, their A1C is trending up their insulin, especially fasting insulin is high, like above a 10 above an [00:35:00] 11 is really, you know, you really wanna be in this.

  Everybody's different, but I would say. Four to 10 range is a good range for insulin, fasting glucose. You want it below 90. If you see that, that's another, like, here's an interesting story I'll share of like, one of my girls, she, she's actually 47. She has a significant ovarian reserve. Like when they do retrievals, she gets like 30 eggs.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: She's doing IVF to test for genetics and, you know, with that many eggs, she felt really confident. But I meet her by the time she's already through like three retrievals and fertilization. Like she'd get 28 eggs, like two would fertilize and then like one, if it made, it would come back. You know, pl So,

  Michelle: have PCOS?

  Aimee: but that's the thing.

  She didn't, she appeared that way, meaning over ovarian wise and high a MH. She was a very fit, lean woman, like an athlete, a professional athlete. [00:36:00] So she could have had it at a younger age, but her lifestyle has like not shown it. But she could be lean. PCOS too. Her A1C is perfect though. But. So first we changed the medications because they were coming at a really high dose because of how many eggs she had left.

  So we first cut the meds in half, same eggs, retrieved fertilization rate, like almost one to 50%, which was amazing, but same thing, still keep coming back. Abnormal. Digging into her labs, you could see her fasting glucose started to trend up over the years and same thing with her. Insulin started to trend up.

  We never even checked her. Leptin actually trending up over, over the years. And even like in this last year, quite a bit like I think the IVF meds maybe pushed her kind of over an edge. She tries like a micro dose of a GLP one, not even that long. Two months does another cycle. She had an 80% fertilization rate.

  She got two euclids and one low level mosaic.[00:37:00]

  Michelle: Wow,

  Aimee: I mean, granted, I had all, you know, like she had been working with me maybe for four months at that point. We were on the low STEM protocol, but in my, you know, in, in my opinion and

  Michelle: It usually takes a little longer for those kind of things

  Aimee: insane. Like, so now we're prepping for a transfer.

  I mean, she's psyched, you know? We'll see, obviously like there's all these things, but it's like one example. If you need it, it could be really helpful.

  Michelle: That's

  Aimee: And women in perimenopause. The thing is, we become less and less insulin sensitive. And so when we're treating these women in their forties perimenopause is gonna kick in different times for different women.

  But we're, when we're treating where things are starting to go different or shift a little bit, we should be looking at metabolic health and then thinking about these things. And I still think we could do it ourselves with our herbs and our lifestyle and all our things. We, we have that. But I, I do of respect efficiency, you know.

  Michelle: No, we gotta use all the tools that we can [00:38:00] get. One quick question 'cause I know you have to go. LDNI remember you talking about that and that's an exciting new thing. Or it kind of newer, you know, not people are starting to like learn about it. Again, another type of medicine that at full dose does one thing, but then at low dose does another.

  Aimee: and it's, it's just basically like, like I just call it like a mini steroid. That's kind of how that's, that's how I see it, of just like, it's just this, it's just. Kind of breaking down this low level chronic inflammation. And you don't necessarily feel like world's different when you take it, but you see the difference.

  So for us, and it's been like this, I I'd say at least eight years, I, you know, every endometriosis patient if we know she has it,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: and then any the autoimmune patient. And then now you're starting to see like the fertility doctors are using it. Like I see CNY, it's in every one of their protocols. Now. Every girl is on low dose naltrexone.

  And the research is cool. And there's that other guy, he's got a bunch of stuff on YouTube. I'm, I forget his name, but he's [00:39:00] really into it. From a fertility perspective. I can get you his name for show notes if you want. I just can't think of it in this moment.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aimee: yeah, I think, I think all of it layered together.

  But I would also just say of like the template that we, we start our clients with, you know, and then obviously always looking at mal factor, looking at uterine, looking at immune stuff like. The template is still really important. I think all these things are like, you know,

  Michelle: Add-ons.

  Aimee: Yeah. Add-ons. And with the understanding that not everyone is it gonna work for everyone, which is the hard part.

  'cause it's like you'd like a guarantee, especially if

  Michelle: Of course, but humans don't function like that.

  Aimee: But it's still like, what I still see in the data, and I know what we both see clinically is like, it's consistency and frequency. It's like there's not just like one shot you're gonna do and a month later you're gonna, you know, get your boobs.

  I mean, I did just kind of tell a story like that, but like, I just think she's, she'd been working at this, like, she had fine tuned her diet. Like she, she had, like, when she came to me I was kinda like, you don't really need me. I'll give you [00:40:00] advice on the IVF and the meds and I'll look at your labs, but like, you kind of have things on lockdown.

  But she was stumped. Why? Why is this not happening? Why is this not happening? You know? And, and could have been just that the insulin resistance that was starting to show up was not allowing her body to properly utilize everything she was doing is basically how I'd say. So now all of a sudden you, you help facilitate like proper metabolism and

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the eggs.

  Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's almost like we were talking about it before, it's almost like a block to your ability to access energy when you're insulin

  Aimee: what it is. It's, and it's like right. For us, it'd be like dampness. It's like flemmi sticky stuff, just hanging out in there, not letting things

  Michelle: getting in the way.

  Aimee: and then it, you put this in and it's like, because even like berberine will be like, kind of essentially, and like, what is that to us, that's like a heat clearing medicine.

  You know what I mean? It's we're like, we're getting through like the wreckage in a sense. We're like. Almost zapping it out. It's kind of what these op ones are doing.

  Michelle: Amazing. Amy, I can always talk to you and pick your brain for hours. And [00:41:00] of course, Amy's my mentor by the way. I actually do schedule calls with her to get to pick her brain because it helps my practice so much, my ability to help women. So like, I'm so thankful,

  Aimee: I'm always like, I got a Miami girl. Yeah. Here we go.

  Michelle: thank you. Same. And and of course I can keep talking to you for hours, but I know you have to go.

  You, you're a busy woman.

  Aimee: Waiting in my reboot group

  Michelle: yeah. So thank you so much for coming on. If, okay, so where can people find everything? All the, all

  Aimee: Yeah. So, I'll get you the, the link for pre-orders and things like that for the book. But everything's gonna be on my website, amy rep.com. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok. That's where like all the information will be shared. And then obviously the book is available anywhere books are sold. Right now it'll only be in English.

  I'm hoping to do an audio book as well. And then last time it was published it did get, it did go into a few languages, so hopefully that will be the case as well.

  Michelle: I'm sure it will be 'cause it's such a gift to the world. Thank you so much, Amy. [00:42:00] I always love talking to you. Have a great day.

  Aimee: you too. Bye. Okay. I am gonna.

Ep 378 Can You Improve Egg Quality After 40? PRP, Peptides & Fertility Breakthroughs with Aimee Raupp

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle sits down with Aimee Raupp (@aimeeraupp) to explore the latest breakthroughs in fertility science and ovarian rejuvenation. From PRP (platelet-rich plasma) therapy and rapamycin to senolytics, peptides, and low-dose naltrexone (LDN), this conversation dives into emerging tools that may support egg quality, ovarian function, and fertility after 35.

They also challenge long-standing scientific dogma around ovarian aging and discuss whether women are truly born with all the eggs they’ll ever have. If you’re navigating diminished ovarian reserve, PCOS, endometriosis, insulin resistance, or age-related fertility concerns, this episode offers cutting-edge insights and practical hope grounded in evolving research.

Key Takeaways:

• PRP ovarian rejuvenation may improve ovarian function and support natural conception in some women.

• Emerging research questions the belief that women are born with all their eggs, opening new conversations about ovarian aging and regeneration.

• Rapamycin and senolytics (like fisetin) are being studied for their potential role in delaying ovarian aging and reducing inflammation.

• Peptide therapy may support hormonal balance, egg quality, insulin sensitivity, and conditions like PCOS.

• Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) may help regulate immune function, reduce inflammation, and support fertility outcomes in certain cases.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

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• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome back to the podcast, Amy. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Aimee: you, Michelle. I think this is what my third time Is it? Yeah.

  Michelle: maybe fourth, I feel like.

  Aimee: exciting. Thank you.

  Michelle: So first of all, congratulations on the new edition of Yes, you Can Get Pregnant, which is so exciting. We had a little pre-talk and I'm very excited to start picking your brain on that.

  Aimee: Yeah, it's been an exciting revision. I think, you know, as I was saying to you before we started recording. It was about 10 years. It's really 11 years since I wrote the first version. And it's, it's really awesome to see. I mean, it's not awesome to see the increased rise in, in fertility. Challenges like that, you know, we've gone up like at least another 10 to 20% of women impacted. [00:03:00] And, and now male factor is a huge piece. But what I enjoyed seeing was so much of the content, you know, and the recommendations that I made 11 years ago that you and I have been making since we've, been out of grad school. all about living in accordance with the DAO and getting back in touch with nature and, and doing things like simply.

  And like circadian rhythm, which we didn't really even have a term for. I guess we did have a term, but we didn't really use that or nervous system work, all of that. What's, what I found validating I think is, is the amount of research that's come out in the last 10 years. Kind of validating all the things, like validating, no, we do need more natural light.

  The blue light is doing damage. You know, sperm health clearly has. Has significantly declined. The environmental toxins are, are really seriously doing damage, you know, ultra processed foods. So there's just this vast volume of research now that backs up much of what we were taught and, and have been, you know, [00:04:00] educating the others on for, for, you know, if we count Chinese medicine for thousands of years, you know, so that part is, is fun, you know, to just.

  You know, I was telling you before we went live too, like my, my citations and resources in the book like went up 10 x if not more. Like my editor was like, we have to actually just have its own PDF and people can download for this. There's way too many citations in the book. Like, I can't, I didn't, I didn't account for this. So, you know, that's fun. And then I increased, you know, content around, preparing for IVF, it's has its own chapter now. Improving egg and sperm quality over the age of 35 has its own chapter now. Ovarian rejuvenation. I did a chapter with Dr. Zaha Murphy and talked about ozone and PRP and HBO and laser and peptides and, you know, so lots of, I think, you know, we've really brought all of the newer information to the plate and into the book, and so that's exciting and I really, I hope.

  You know, it's [00:05:00] used as, almost like an encyclopedia of resources. Like, just got so much information and, and really, so I think still has that, that deeply empowering message of like, you have a lot of power here and here, you know, here are the ways you can connect the dots for yourself because, you know, again, as we were discussing before we went live, that, we now know, and I think that the, the research really supports this, that most all unexplained fertility challenges.

  Have an explanation and, you know, they're rooted in inflammation, immune disorders, you know, maybe structural issues. not just all your eggs are bad because you're over the age of 35, which can't wait for that stigma to just leave the room.

  Michelle: A hundred percent. Oh my God. Totally. I feel the same way. And it's exciting. It's, what's exciting is that we're coming on a lot of amazing research and new technology. PRP is exciting. I definitely wanna pick your brain on that. Because I've heard you know, there's, there's obviously, I've had doctors that were like, no, maybe it's [00:06:00] not safe for the ovaries.

  I know Dr. Mur, he's had a lot of great success with it. And you work

  Aimee: Yeah. And then there was a recent meta analysis that was not, you know, he did not do that research. That was someone looking at all the research that's been going on, right. Meta analysis, obviously. Showing. Yeah, it, it has marked impacts on improving a MH antral follicle count, BLASTY rate IVF outcomes.

  You know, and so I still feel, and what I see clinically and feel good about saying is in, I think 50%, five zero of the cases that do the ovarian PRP see positive benefits and 50% just don't see any benefits. But I don't see negatives.

  Michelle: Okay. That's amazing. So what are some of the positive benefits you've seen?

  Aimee: The A MH going up the antra follicle count. More, you know, if women are doing IVF, you see? Just more get fertilized more. Get blast. Get to

  Michelle: Wow, amazing. I've seen, I've seen that [00:07:00] happen. I've seen it where I've talked to people up north that went to see him and they were trying to conceive naturally and, and it wasn't working for years. And then they went to see him and a couple of months later, 'cause it does take, I guess a couple of months for it to really like show up.

  And then, and then they would get pregnant like naturally. So I'm like, okay, well, you know, obviously must have done something. Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: think it, it, you know, it is your own growth factors and so, so I think for all the listeners, you know, human growth hormone was like kind of the hot ticket for a while. Like add HDH to your protocols. This is your own HDH. That's how I would look at that. You know, these are your own growth factors and that's, I think that's even better than borrowing from, you know, however these, the human growth hormone is being made or, or, or created and where it's coming from. then, you know, it, it is basically like the other thing that we really know now and can confidently say is we don't run out of eggs. Like, yes, the pool is declining, but we now know that even [00:08:00] women in menopause, and this is, you know.

  I think, I think there's multiple research studies that show the same thing. At this point, women in menopause still have about a thousand eggs left in their ovaries. And so it's not about running out, it's not about the pool. I mean the pool declines. I'm not, not saying that, but it, you don't just wake up and one day they're all gone.

  It's really about they start losing communication. They go dormant. And what the PRP seems to be doing is waking up those dormant follicles.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then

  Aimee: the game, not creating new ones. Now there are people doing, and not Murphy's one of them, but there's other people as well doing stem cell outside of the US 'cause that's not currently legal.

  That theoretically is actually causing you to create new eggs in your ovaries.

  Michelle: That's incredible. Let's talk about that a little bit. I know it's not in the US but I'm just really curious. So what is that technology? 'cause that sounds really cool.

  Aimee: mean, they're using placental stem cells, so they're buying them from, I think there's a bank in Colorado actually [00:09:00] that is doing it. You can get 'em in different places like Panama, a big place. I think Dubai is another place. And these are so placental sorry. Placental cord blood stem cells. That these are apparently it's the word like omnipotent, like they can become anything and they don't have to be your cord blood stem cells.

  They can be anyone's, it's just like a bank of these stem cells. And then you, so you do the PRP, so you draw the blood, do the platelets, you're mixing that in with the stem cells and then injecting that into the ovaries and then. New eggs should be theoretically created. It's hard to know for certain if that's happening because I don't think anyone's done like a test of like staining the old ones to see what happens with the new ones.

  You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're human trials that that's kind of hard to do. Perhaps it's being done on the animal model, but then people would argue, you know, is that the same? So I have seen girls with like POI, [00:10:00] you know, like they're young, they premature ovarian insufficiency, like they got nothing, they're not cycling, that kind of thing.

  Or women in menopause and it seems to be kind of bringing them out of that. Again, not working for everyone, and there's really not enough. I haven't seen enough of my clients do it clinically for me to have like a, a solid, like, you know, go and do it. I, and Dr. Murphy would say he likes to like layer it in, you know, first to start with regular PRP.

  Then he does the adipose, which is where he's getting stem cells from your own fat cells.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: And that can be done in the us. And then there's the stem cells that's happening, you know, for him in The Bahamas. And there's also people doing mitochondrial replacement therapy. There's like CN Ys doing that in Mexico.

  Doc, there's whatever doctor his name is in Albania is doing it. Me, he's doing it. There's a guy in Spain doing it. That's where you're borrowing mitochondria from a donor egg [00:11:00] and taking out your. Older mitochondria or malfunctioning mitochondria and switching that. So it's still your genetics. You still need donor eggs, but you're not borrowing biology and genetics.

  You're just borrowing mitochondria

  Michelle: Right. Which has a different set of genetics anyway

  Aimee: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle: your own body.

  Aimee: Yeah, so it's you know, the, the technology is cool. I think it's moving at a rapid pace, like from what I can see. I also there was recently a post Dak Shepherd had said something recently, like, I'll, I told my girls that when they turn 18, I'll, I'll help, I'll pay for them to freeze their eggs and any, you know, that went viral.

  And I think you said it like on people.com or something like that. And you know, I, I did a story on it 'cause I was like, I think, I think this is great. Like, I think a, it a, first of all, it's nice that, you know, he has the money that he can do that not everybody has those resources and the ability, but b, by the time his children are 18, that's like another decade or so, if not more.

  We might not need eggs. We might be able to generate them just from any of your DNA. So a swab inside the [00:12:00] cheek. And then when I first wrote, yes, you can get pregnant, I had interviewed Dr. Hugh Taylor. He is, I think he still is the head of reproductive medicine at Yale. And he said to me, he's like, yeah, probably in 10 to 15 years I'll actually be out of a job.

  He's like, because we'll be able to make e eggs from swabbing the inside of a cheek. Like we'll be able to just generate eggs for, for you at whatever age you are inside a lab and then fertilize that, make an embryo and that is being done. I don't know that it's been done human wise, but it's definitely being done in a lab.

  I'm not sure whose eggs they're using, some mammal, but that's.

  Michelle: That's fascinating.

  Aimee: too. Yeah,

  Michelle: Well, they're mammals. I mean, we're mammals, you know, so there's gotta be, if it works, there's gotta be some way to make it work on humans as well.

  Aimee: And I think that's part of the research that's going on that I think is also really amazing and I hope, I hope everyone who's listening gets, you know, time to have access to it, but like studying, why are we the only mammals that actually can.

  Procreate after a [00:13:00] certain age. Like why do our eggs go dormant? What is that piece? You know, there's a little bit looking to the kisspeptin and that and that peptide, and apparently that, I guess, declines with age and that keeps the ovarian reserve abundant. I've had some patients use the Kisspeptin peptide.

  I've not seen. Any success with that. But, but kind of researching why, why do we downregulate our reproduction at a certain time in our life, and why do men not, you know? And so looking at other mammals trying to understand that you know, I think it's, I think it's. Interesting and cool. You know, I, I remember not that long ago getting kind of bullied and attacked on Instagram for saying like, do we run, really run outta eggs?

  Like, are we really running out of eggs? And and a couple, you know, doctors came after me for like, spreading misinformation and I was like, but it's not, there's a guy, Jonathan Tilley, he's been studying this for over 20 years now. Out of Northwestern or Northeastern. I always confuse them. But his name is definitely Jonathan [00:14:00] Tilley, and he's the head of biology at one of those universities.

  And he's showing like, no, there's ovarian stem cells that we have. You can see people that like, went through chemo or radiation on their ovaries, but then somehow we're still able to produce follicles and have children Like that doesn't make any sense. And so, you know, targeting and like really trying to understand what else is going on, you know, we also know women haven't been a part of research, you know, until very recently.

  And so.

  Michelle: This is a big deal. Like people don't realize.

  Aimee: Yeah, we based that theory of like, eggs are finite. You're running out of eggs on research from the 1960s that looked at Reese's monkeys and rats. It was never repeated in a human model for almost 40 years. They literally, it was a mathematical model looking at rats and Reese's monkeys over time and saying, oh, okay, so the reserve does go down.

  So that happens to women. That's it. You run outta eggs. That, that was the theory. No one questioned it. It's, it's an, no one has questioned it until fairly recently, and I think now we're getting a lot more information out there [00:15:00] and, and some of these medical facts are shifting and changing. I, you're still gonna run into the.

  Old school docs who were just gonna kind of, you know, dig their heels in. I mean, I think too though, aging does age us, you know, so our mitochondria become less effective and cellular division less effective. So we're more prone to chromosomal or genetic issues the older we are. But I don't think it's definitive just 'cause you're 47, you have X amount of, you know, chances or x amount of chromosomal things that are gonna happen.

  No, that's not the case. We can all age differently. So it's like the I, I tell people whenever they like push me on things, I'm like, just start looking into the world of regenerative medicine. Like that's where you should start. Because if it hasn't yet touched fertility yet, you know, I mean it's starting to, I think with doctors like me and things like that, but, that's where it's at. I mean, we're seeing this, we're seeing it with the peptide explosion. We're seeing it with, you know, just the anti-aging, like the mitochondrial, excuse me, the mitochondrial explosion. You know, we're learning more about food and [00:16:00] environment and toxins and, and they're aging us. I think one of the studies that I pulled for the new version of, yes, you can't get pregnant I might not quote it exactly, but it was the exposure to ultra processed foods and a MH levels and that women who ate.

  More ultra processed foods than those who did not had much lower A MH. And when you removed the ultra processed foods from their diet, within three months, their A MH on average doubled.

  Michelle: Wow, that's so significant. That's like not just like

  Aimee: That's insane. But like, yet we're told a MH, you know, that's it. This is your number. You know, like the way they used to talk about FSH they don't, not as much, you know, they don't say that as much of, oh, I can change, you know, or as it used to be, like, this is the gold standard. It never changes.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a snapshot in time. It's so crazy. But you know what's really funny, Amy? I actually had the same question as you about, are we really born with all the exit we'll ever have? And I remember seeing a study that was done on a cancer drug. I don't know, you probably are familiar [00:17:00] with it, where they used it. I think it had to do with the ovaries, but they noticed that the ovaries would have more follicles, and they said,

  Aimee: like, and Jonathan Tilly, that's what he's looking at. That's the research. 'cause it started with, that's what triggered the research. It started with this cancer, these cancer patients where they were like, wait, they should, the ovaries should be dead like this. There's no, why are they, how do they have cells?

  How, how are they actively making follicles? Because I think it was direct chemo or radiation. Directed at the ovaries, it was like ovarian cancer patients, right? I think that's,

  Michelle: Something like that. It was something to do with it, like I think it was ovarian cancer, and then they weren't, of course, expecting that to be a result

  Aimee: Yeah. I think I, you know, I think truthfully, there's so much we don't know, and I would much rather everyone say that than to say, no, this is. This is the truth. This is what we function on. This is finite. You know that, that [00:18:00] doesn't show intelligence, right? I think there's, there's some study out there or some quote that's like, you know, the number one way to, to like see a lack of intelligence is, is to see people who just like, are unwilling to see it be another way.

  You know, it's just like, okay, you, you are not thinking outside the box. And that's what I always tell our, our patients of like, okay, you're clearly not getting the results you want. We need to find a new team who's willing to think outside the box, who's willing to try different things. Like that's, that's what we need.

  We can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. But then also like, you know, talking about aging, like then how do we define, like you and I both have had women in their late forties do it. Like how, how, how do you define that then? How do you say it? Can they just be these anomalies?

  But you and I, you know, if we are talking about the relative population, we have smaller practices, you know what I mean? But like. All of us in the acupuncture world, we all probably are like, yeah, I've had 47 year olds. I've had 48 year olds. You know, I've seen like Murphy's had 50 year olds, 51 year olds with their own eggs.

  Michelle: Well, the oldest

  Aimee: that possible? It's

  Michelle: years old, naturally had a baby, Don Brooks [00:19:00] in England. And and I always compare it to the Roger Banister effect, where the guy wins the seven minute the four minute mile. He breaks the four minute mile, and then like months after that, a bunch of people break it.

  Like, why? Why did nobody break it up until somebody broke it?

  Aimee: And I think about that too in my practice. I feel like the more, almost like geared in I've gotten, or the more I've seen and the more hope. I used to think like 44, 45 was kind of the cutoff. And now I'm like, Hmm, I, I've had 48 year olds do it, so

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: why can't you? And also like.

  You know, and I know we're reaching all these different conversations and you and I are both, you know, holistic experts, but I also think perimenopausal support the right way. a woman still trying to conceive, using things like bioidentical, HRT can be extremely beneficial and we maintain the cycle, like we're using estrogen when we're supposed to, progesterone, when we're supposed to, if they need testosterone or DHEA.

  Obviously we're testing, we're not guessing. I'm [00:20:00] not saying go out there and start taking bioidentical HRT, but. That. I mean, even for me, I'm 51. My cycle has been wonky this year for the first time, but up until, and I've been playing with Bioidentical HRT for probably three to four years, you know, and I don't have any. My FSH is still in a good range. I don't have any hot flashes, I don't have vaginal dryness. I still have a sex drive, like all these things. So like, I think what I started to do and play around with was like I'm extending things like I'm giving myself and then hopefully I'm kind of missing this like big dip, right?

  Which we know is what comes with all the health events, but or negative health events. But I think about for our women with perimenopause, I mean, what we were doing, even from just a natural perspective is like, yeah, we're just nourishing and improving blood flow and circulation. We're, we're preventing things from kind of stopping and slowing down.

  We're keeping them going. And then if you wanna add in a little, a little HRT, that's bioidentical.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the game

  Michelle: It does for sure. A hundred percent. And it's something that we have available. And I do think that [00:21:00] obviously the bioidentical aspect of it makes a difference too. But yeah, why not use what we have and it, and now they're finding that it's not as bad as they originally said,

  Aimee: we knew that all

  Michelle: is a big deal.

  Aimee: at, we're looking at one study based on one

  Michelle: this is what happens.

  Aimee: they extrapolated it across the board and it's like, God. And that's like, that's what I mean of like, take some responsibility. You know what I mean? Like, that's unfair. That is so unfair what you did.

  It's so unfair.

  Michelle: it is. But it's like who has the mic? That's really what it is. I mean,

  Aimee: loud enough. Yeah. And who's got the deeper pockets? You know, I mean, it's layers and layers. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So I wanted to talk to you about rep rapamycin. That's another hot topic that's coming out about older women trying to conceive.

  Aimee: Yeah, it impacts the mTOR pathways, right? Which yeah, I might not know the entire pathway, but basically helps improve mitochondrial function. And [00:22:00] it's a drug that's been used for organ transplants for many, many, many years. People have started playing around with it for fertility. Think Dr. Amy, the Egg Whisperer, not me started using it in her practice.

  I think she's doing something like three to four grams a week.

  Michelle: So, yeah, at a much lower dose,

  Aimee: lower dose, like almost like a

  Michelle: than, than what it

  Aimee: kind of, it's considered at this point like a longevity medicine. Right. And so, but then there was a recent study, so there's now two studies that are going on, I think one at Columbia here in New York.

  And there was another one going on someplace else, but they published and it. It was still a decent size of women. I think a couple hundred. And they did one milligram of rapamycin per day for 21 to 28 days, kind of depending on the woman. And then they compared 'em to a control group. But what's cool is they also had comparisons to previous IVF cycles for these women.

  The women in the rapamycin group had more eggs retrieved, [00:23:00] more blast assist, and I think higher pregnancy rates. So much so like that. The day that study came out, I actually was in the clinic with Mur and he, I ran into him and he was like, that's it, rapamycin for everyone. Like, he was like, I'm sold, like sold.

  And you can, you know, I mean, again. I don't think everybody should be treating themselves like this, but you can get that online.

  Michelle: get

  Aimee: place you

  Michelle: Ageless Rx.

  Aimee: Yeah, h srx man. You can get it. And I think you, you have to be smart though. You're not supposed to conceive while you're on it.

  You do it before a cycle or before, like before an IF cycle or before a natural conception cycle. You're not doing it during, so you have to think about that. You have to take time off. I strongly would recommend though, that someone is managing the case and you're not just doing it on your own. And then, then how many cycles do you repeat it for?

  That I don't know. I think this study was just that one clip of the 21 to 28 days, so I'm not sure about like, the way Dr. Amy's doing. It's a little different, right? Where these people, they're just on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Right?

  Aimee: And I can't speak to that, you know. But she's been, you know, she was the first one to use h human growth hormone in California, and then she hopped on the PRP bandwagon like very early on.

  And then she's, she's been the first one using rapamycin as well.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then there's something else that piqued my interest is ly. So like things like ottin you just take once a month.

  Aimee: Oh, the fi satin, is that what you said?

  Michelle: Ottin, yeah. You take it once a month, I think for three or five days, depending on the, the product. And it helps get rid of c senescent cells, zombie cells.

  Aimee: We just, where we, we just did redid rejuve repair, you know, the, the supplements that I have with me and Mark and we're adding Cetin at like the, the daily, like the regular low level dose to it because it's very promising, you know, or it's interesting, I'll say, you know, but that was, we had a call with our formulator it's gotta be at least six months ago, and he said to us, he was like, Cetin is the next one [00:25:00] you're going to hear the most about.

  From a mitochondrial perspective, from like a lytic perspective. And there's a couple of cool sites. What's the one? It's oral peptides oh my God. Health Jevity and it's Health. Jevity G with G. And it's health jev.com. You can put it in the show notes, but they have some really awesome

  Michelle: rev Genetics

  Aimee: different

  Michelle: or Health Gen. Oh, okay.

  Aimee: Health, but it's all these really smart PhDs and it's all oral.

  Michelle: Oh,

  Aimee: they have the BPC 1 57, they have the PEA, they have, they have like a re in, like they have some kind of lytic multi kind of thing.

  You know, they're, they're not

  Michelle: Amazing.

  Aimee: and there's also not a ton of data around for it, but.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: Cool. Interesting. But I agree. It's like these things, you know, like even as astaxanthin, like we've known about that one, but that's another one that I think deserves

  Michelle: Antioxidant. Yeah, very, very good one. And also what I saw the studies on Odin was [00:26:00] that in, I think it was rats, it brought back ovulation or delayed menopause or Arian aging. And then there was also studies on endometriosis as well.

  Aimee: Oh really? Well, because like also because we know it's like the inflammation is crushing the mitochondria. It's crushing the quality. And so I think that's what it's doing. It's kind of like bringing things back online. It's almost like what we saw with the NMN or the NAD, you know? It's like, okay, it delayed menopausal, right?

  And like menopausal rats came, mice came back online and started ovulating again. So, you know, it's also to be argued of like, okay, but does it. Mean much in the context of just taking this one single nutrient. I don't know. That's what we don't know, you know? But it's also, you know, in the book too, that's what I did.

  I created these kind of like mitochondrial supplement stacks, you know, so like not taking everything every day, you know, and just kind of how to stack them and, and when, and [00:27:00] based on the current data and the dosing, which. It was cool and fun because it's also a lot, like, I always think about our girls and like how many supplements they're taking or who's doing IVs and injections and things like that.

  It's like, oh my gosh, it's a lot. I think the BPC 1 57 is pretty cool. That definitely has like an overall healing capacity,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: you know, and, and kind of like tissue regeneration

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: maybe regeneration is too, too promising, but, you know, tissue repair.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: That, that's been around the longest. So it's like, you know, I know some doctors who are using that, like hands down, that's in my practice for any, any gut protocol that I need to do, it's gonna heal the lining.

  Michelle: that injected

  Aimee: What was that?

  Michelle: injection

  Aimee: Or even orally, like how I found out about, he was through a, a physician friend who he does anti-aging medicine, and he was the one who told me, he connected me with them and he was like, he's like, I use their BPC 1 5 7. They have one with like PEA in it.

  And he was like, I've never seen. [00:28:00] Gut health heal faster.

  Michelle: Wow. Wow.

  Aimee: and he's been around a very long time. And, and even like Hyman and you know, Tony Robbins has his centers now too. They're, they're all connected to like one of these oral peptide companies, you know, and the second, the peptides are illegal in the us these, these companies will all start making the actual injections.

  Like right now, the biggest thing you have to be aware of is the injections that you're taking. If you go to like one of these wellness clinics and they have the BPC 1 5 7, or they have, you know, the Kisspeptin or. The Ella they are importing it from another country. A lot of the times that country is China and then they're reconstituting it in their labs. You wanna make sure that it's not peptides that are for research purposes, but they're peptides that have actually been like tested for endotoxins and things like that. So I think it's called pharmaceutical grade versus research grade. But none of these peptides [00:29:00] are technically legal in the us So they like, if you're getting them, you like, and we're not talking about GLP ones, we're talking about these other ones.

  If you're getting them, you really wanna know the source. So that's why I feel safer with my clients saying, go to hge, take their oral stuff. Like is it, is it probably a 10th as effective? Yes. But I don't know. It's still probably doing something. Yeah. And even for us with the, the cetin like sourcing that and, and kind of understanding the dosing and all of that, like sure.

  Maybe by the time the new repair product comes out, we'll we'll have it available in injections as well, but not everybody's down for that. And it's also can be really expensive. I don't

  Michelle: Yeah, it's, it's a lot more tough to

  Aimee: Yeah, I looked into this Ella and I think through Ageless Rx, and it's like I could get a three month supply for like a thousand dollars.

  I was like, well, that's expensive, you

  Michelle: is, that's nuts. Yeah. Very expensive. Yeah. You have to make it realistic for people to really do consistently. 'Cause otherwise it's just, it's, it's tough.

  Aimee: And then also we [00:30:00] just don't honestly have enough data. So we can't say this for certain is gonna be the thing that gets you your baby. We can't, no one can and any, if anybody is,

  Michelle: Run for the hills.

  Aimee: It is like, I mean, I, before we talked, we, we share some clients and it's like this one client who came to me, like, it's, it's a, it's a colleague or a friend that has this like med spa and literally sent her home with this list of like, these are all the peptides I can inject you with so that you can have a, a better IVF next time.

  And she, I'm happy, sent it to me and asked me for my feedback. And I was like, oh, I a how much is this gonna cost you? But b. None that this is guaranteed. Like, it's like I, let's, let's be honest with ourselves, you know? And then so we kind of just picked and choose what we thought would maybe be smart to try.

  But we also don't know how everyone is gonna react, you know, just like anything.

  Michelle: [00:31:00] Yeah, for sure. And then what else did I wanna ask? I was gonna ask, so talk about peptides. Actually, let's kind of go to that. 'cause we, we brushed upon a couple of different ones and what are peptides for people who are not familiar with what they are and how can they help?

  Aimee: technically exist in our body, right? They're proteins and chains of proteins that exist in our body, and then what we're doing is. Taking them in at much higher doses, but they're technically, like, they're synergistic, is how I would look at it with our body and our function. So these were isolated compounds that were like, oh, you know, like rapamycin, oh, this impacts the mTOR pathway.

  We know this for a fact, so we're gonna use it here. So it's, you know, it's created based on physiology. And technically should be safe. It's more like the, the sourcing and the dosing and the individual [00:32:00] client.

  Michelle: So there's different types that do have different functions.

  Aimee: Oh, they all have different functions, right? Like, I mean, the GLP one is the most common, right? So we know it's working on these GLP one receptors, which is helping with insulin regulation in the body. You know, it's a metabolic and it's, I think it's magic for the people who need it, you know? We were talking about that before we went live, and it's like.

  Any of my clients, like it's being used more and more. I think infertility because so many of our girls have insulin resistance, which is why we've been working on diet and lifestyle with them for so long, and when to eat and how to eat and how much to eat, right? We're fixing insulin resistance is what we've been doing.

  Now. There's this drug that can do it pretty fast, you know, and so. But you really, really wanna know that you need it because if you take it and you don't need it, it could backfire. If you take it and you don't follow the right diet and the right lifestyle, it could backfire. And we know that from a JLP one 'cause it's been out for a very long time.

  But this, this is the longest. It's being like the, i I would [00:33:00] say the most amount of people it's being used on in a short period of time. It seems like everyone's taking it. You know, I worry about that long-term repercussions. There's a lot we don't know. You know, I'd liken that to, you know, some, some said vaccines, same thing.

  You know, where you're like, oh, I don't, I don't know that I'm playing around with that. Vaccines are different than peptides, but just that same thing where I'm like, I don't have enough longitudinal data. I need to collect more information. But like I think GLP ones are a good example. Like, we're learning the best way to live your life while taking it.

  So not just that you inject yourself and that's the quick fix and you never have to do anything else. If you do that, I think you can have negative repercussions for sure.

  Michelle: And also the dosage we were talking about that too. In some cases people would benefit from a microdose,

  Aimee: Yeah. I,

  Michelle: rather than having like a really high dose.

  Aimee: I just leave you, I'm sorry. Like a low and slow kind of situation, you know, I think it's much more important. Yeah, and I have girls that, you know, are very insulin resistant. Maybe metformin was what was recommended [00:34:00] to them prior. They're trying, the GLP ones, they're seeing a good difference.

  But same thing, you know, we're, we're staying at. Either the, the starting dose or the microdosing. I mean, I'm not a physician. I can't manage that and I can't prescribe that. But I've learned enough and I work with the physician. And then we are also looking at labs, you know, so, like for instance, I just saw a girl's labs today and they were thinking about giving her, gLP one for suspected insulin resistance. Her lectin and her insulin are low. I mean, they're below a three each. Like, she's, she's actually the opposite of the case. Like she, if you give it to her, it's gonna shut her down.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: gonna go offline because everybody's gonna be like, oh my God.

  Like, it's, it's almost like, at least, at least from what I understand and know, that's how I see that it would go down. I, I could be wrong. I haven't seen enough of these cases, but it seems to work really well for the people with. High fasting glucose, their A1C is trending up their insulin, especially fasting insulin is high, like above a 10 above an [00:35:00] 11 is really, you know, you really wanna be in this.

  Everybody's different, but I would say. Four to 10 range is a good range for insulin, fasting glucose. You want it below 90. If you see that, that's another, like, here's an interesting story I'll share of like, one of my girls, she, she's actually 47. She has a significant ovarian reserve. Like when they do retrievals, she gets like 30 eggs.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: She's doing IVF to test for genetics and, you know, with that many eggs, she felt really confident. But I meet her by the time she's already through like three retrievals and fertilization. Like she'd get 28 eggs, like two would fertilize and then like one, if it made, it would come back. You know, pl So,

  Michelle: have PCOS?

  Aimee: but that's the thing.

  She didn't, she appeared that way, meaning over ovarian wise and high a MH. She was a very fit, lean woman, like an athlete, a professional athlete. [00:36:00] So she could have had it at a younger age, but her lifestyle has like not shown it. But she could be lean. PCOS too. Her A1C is perfect though. But. So first we changed the medications because they were coming at a really high dose because of how many eggs she had left.

  So we first cut the meds in half, same eggs, retrieved fertilization rate, like almost one to 50%, which was amazing, but same thing, still keep coming back. Abnormal. Digging into her labs, you could see her fasting glucose started to trend up over the years and same thing with her. Insulin started to trend up.

  We never even checked her. Leptin actually trending up over, over the years. And even like in this last year, quite a bit like I think the IVF meds maybe pushed her kind of over an edge. She tries like a micro dose of a GLP one, not even that long. Two months does another cycle. She had an 80% fertilization rate.

  She got two euclids and one low level mosaic.[00:37:00]

  Michelle: Wow,

  Aimee: I mean, granted, I had all, you know, like she had been working with me maybe for four months at that point. We were on the low STEM protocol, but in my, you know, in, in my opinion and

  Michelle: It usually takes a little longer for those kind of things

  Aimee: insane. Like, so now we're prepping for a transfer.

  I mean, she's psyched, you know? We'll see, obviously like there's all these things, but it's like one example. If you need it, it could be really helpful.

  Michelle: That's

  Aimee: And women in perimenopause. The thing is, we become less and less insulin sensitive. And so when we're treating these women in their forties perimenopause is gonna kick in different times for different women.

  But we're, when we're treating where things are starting to go different or shift a little bit, we should be looking at metabolic health and then thinking about these things. And I still think we could do it ourselves with our herbs and our lifestyle and all our things. We, we have that. But I, I do of respect efficiency, you know.

  Michelle: No, we gotta use all the tools that we can [00:38:00] get. One quick question 'cause I know you have to go. LDNI remember you talking about that and that's an exciting new thing. Or it kind of newer, you know, not people are starting to like learn about it. Again, another type of medicine that at full dose does one thing, but then at low dose does another.

  Aimee: and it's, it's just basically like, like I just call it like a mini steroid. That's kind of how that's, that's how I see it, of just like, it's just this, it's just. Kind of breaking down this low level chronic inflammation. And you don't necessarily feel like world's different when you take it, but you see the difference.

  So for us, and it's been like this, I I'd say at least eight years, I, you know, every endometriosis patient if we know she has it,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: and then any the autoimmune patient. And then now you're starting to see like the fertility doctors are using it. Like I see CNY, it's in every one of their protocols. Now. Every girl is on low dose naltrexone.

  And the research is cool. And there's that other guy, he's got a bunch of stuff on YouTube. I'm, I forget his name, but he's [00:39:00] really into it. From a fertility perspective. I can get you his name for show notes if you want. I just can't think of it in this moment.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aimee: yeah, I think, I think all of it layered together.

  But I would also just say of like the template that we, we start our clients with, you know, and then obviously always looking at mal factor, looking at uterine, looking at immune stuff like. The template is still really important. I think all these things are like, you know,

  Michelle: Add-ons.

  Aimee: Yeah. Add-ons. And with the understanding that not everyone is it gonna work for everyone, which is the hard part.

  'cause it's like you'd like a guarantee, especially if

  Michelle: Of course, but humans don't function like that.

  Aimee: But it's still like, what I still see in the data, and I know what we both see clinically is like, it's consistency and frequency. It's like there's not just like one shot you're gonna do and a month later you're gonna, you know, get your boobs.

  I mean, I did just kind of tell a story like that, but like, I just think she's, she'd been working at this, like, she had fine tuned her diet. Like she, she had, like, when she came to me I was kinda like, you don't really need me. I'll give you [00:40:00] advice on the IVF and the meds and I'll look at your labs, but like, you kind of have things on lockdown.

  But she was stumped. Why? Why is this not happening? Why is this not happening? You know? And, and could have been just that the insulin resistance that was starting to show up was not allowing her body to properly utilize everything she was doing is basically how I'd say. So now all of a sudden you, you help facilitate like proper metabolism and

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the eggs.

  Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's almost like we were talking about it before, it's almost like a block to your ability to access energy when you're insulin

  Aimee: what it is. It's, and it's like right. For us, it'd be like dampness. It's like flemmi sticky stuff, just hanging out in there, not letting things

  Michelle: getting in the way.

  Aimee: and then it, you put this in and it's like, because even like berberine will be like, kind of essentially, and like, what is that to us, that's like a heat clearing medicine.

  You know what I mean? It's we're like, we're getting through like the wreckage in a sense. We're like. Almost zapping it out. It's kind of what these op ones are doing.

  Michelle: Amazing. Amy, I can always talk to you and pick your brain for hours. And [00:41:00] of course, Amy's my mentor by the way. I actually do schedule calls with her to get to pick her brain because it helps my practice so much, my ability to help women. So like, I'm so thankful,

  Aimee: I'm always like, I got a Miami girl. Yeah. Here we go.

  Michelle: thank you. Same. And and of course I can keep talking to you for hours, but I know you have to go.

  You, you're a busy woman.

  Aimee: Waiting in my reboot group

  Michelle: yeah. So thank you so much for coming on. If, okay, so where can people find everything? All the, all

  Aimee: Yeah. So, I'll get you the, the link for pre-orders and things like that for the book. But everything's gonna be on my website, amy rep.com. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok. That's where like all the information will be shared. And then obviously the book is available anywhere books are sold. Right now it'll only be in English.

  I'm hoping to do an audio book as well. And then last time it was published it did get, it did go into a few languages, so hopefully that will be the case as well.

  Michelle: I'm sure it will be 'cause it's such a gift to the world. Thank you so much, Amy. [00:42:00] I always love talking to you. Have a great day.

  Aimee: you too. Bye. Okay. I am gonna.

Ep 377 Peptides, GLP-1s & Fertility: What You Need to Know with Jay Campbell

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jay Campbell (@jaycampbell333), health optimization expert, author, and founder of BioLongevity Labs, to explore the powerful intersection of peptides, metabolic health, and fertility.

Jay shares how therapeutic peptides like HCG, HMG, and GLP compounds can support male fertility, insulin resistance, and metabolic balance when used correctly. We discuss the rise of GLP-1 medications, why microdosing matters, and how inflammation and visceral fat are major contributors to declining fertility rates.

Beyond the physical, we also dive into mindset, consciousness, and how belief systems impact healing and reproductive outcomes. This conversation bridges cutting-edge science with empowered awareness, and offers a new perspective on fertility optimization in the modern world.

Key Takeaways:

• Therapeutic peptides such as HCG and HMG can help stimulate FSH and LH to support male fertility.

• Chronic inflammation and visceral fat are major drivers of insulin resistance and declining fertility.

• GLP-1 medications can be helpful tools when microdosed and combined with proper lifestyle habits.

• Insulin-controlled living and metabolic flexibility are foundational for hormonal balance.

• Sustainable fat loss requires resistance training, adequate protein intake, and hormonal optimization.

• Environmental toxins and endocrine disruptors contribute to the global fertility decline.

• Mindset and consciousness play a significant role in healing, longevity, and reproductive success.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

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https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

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• Transcript

  # Video\_TWF: EP 377 Jay Campbell

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Jay.

  Jay: Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I'm always honored and humbled and privileged to be doing podcasts with people. Uh, I made a goal in December of 2025 to do 75 podcasts this year, and you are number 10. So thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: that's a good number.

  Jay: Yep.

  Michelle: Awesome. So tell me, um, I always like to start with an origin story so that my audience can get to hear your, you know, your background and, um, I'm, I, for one, I'm very interested in what I've read thus far, so I'm excited to have you share your story.

  Jay: Thank you so much. Um, so I'm gonna give you the a hundred thousand foot summary. Um, I'm an ex-college athlete, played basketball, um, was still playing competitive basketball at the age of 29 in a men's league in Southern California. I got kicked into testicles. Uh, you know, checked out. But about seven [00:01:00] to eight weeks later, I started feeling really run out.

  I was, I felt broken, I had low back pain, just didn't feel right, knew something was off. I went to my HMO slash P PPO doctor at the time, I worked for the Los Angeles Times, and as I like to say, there's no coincidences, only synchronicities. He recommended me to a world class, uh, Harvard educated endocrinologist by the name of Dr.

  Raymond Scruggs. And he took my labs and saw that I had the testosterone levels of a geriatric, like an 85-year-old man. So he said, look, I can put you on therapeutic testosterone and eight weeks to nine weeks later, you'll be right as reign, and if you wanna come off, you can. So he is like, before you say yes, go home, talk to your.

  Uh, at the time it was my wife to be, and I always say, shout out to Kelly because she is long gone. But, uh, you know, we did not have kids and we were like, yeah, we're both smart people. We could do this. So I went on therapeutic testosterone and again, I was literally seven weeks shy of turning 30 and everything he said was gonna happen happened.

  And when I went to see [00:02:00] him, uh, at my eight week checkup, he was like, okay, I'm gonna take you off. And I'm like. You're not taking me off this, this is the most transformative, amazing I've ever felt in my life. I want to learn more about this. And so from that point forward, um, the next 10 to 12 years, I became this amazingly voracious student of hormones and also other things, which again, this was in the early two thousands, which happened to be therapeutic peptides.

  You know, I tell people this and they freak out, but like, I've been using therapeutic peptides since 2003, right? So like on all this time that I was using therapeutic hormones, therapeutic peptides and other things, experimenting on myself, I was like, you know, I call myself an OG biohacker Guinea pig. I learned about all these amazing, you know, call 'em adjuvants or molecules or.

  You know, biochemical miracles. Um, so fast forward, um, I built a really awesome physique using therapeutic hormones, using therapeutic peptides. People would always ask me, um, you know, how do you look the way you do? And I would always tell 'em straight to their face. I [00:03:00] use therapeutic testosterone and peptides, et cetera.

  And so I would be met with this like, look of derision. Oh my God, you're on steroids. Or it would be like, wow, fascinating. Tell me more. And so eventually the fascinating, tell me more, people went out and I wrote a book, which was published in 2015. It was actually written in 2014, and it became a very, very big top selling book on Amazon and, and was number one in men's health for like five or six months in 2016.

  Uh, and then from there it just kind of vaulted me to speaking on stages, talking about hormones. Uh, I wrote my book on peptides, uh, in 2023, and it exploded into mainstream consciousness. Uh, for one really apparent reason. I didn't know it at the time, but it was because it was in the middle of the vaccines.

  Um, you know, the scam de and the COVID vaccine and all that. And so people were looking for alternative forms of healing and obviously peptides represented, you know, that. Uh, and so my book really blew up. And then, you know, subsequently then I've, uh, launched and sold a company and now I have another company called Bio Longevity Labs.

  And I'm just in the right [00:04:00] place at the right time, uh, at the same time that I learned about all that stuff. And I was really walking the path of hormones and peptides and stuff. I really got really conscious. And, um, that's kind of really my jam now. I talk about consciousness, I talk about, you know, people raising their frequency, raising their vibration.

  Um, and so on top of being like this health optimization expert, I also talk about conscious frequency and the universe and all that kind of stuff. And I think. Everybody really starts talking about that. Once you get to a level where you really have really clear awareness and so many people don't, right?

  Because they're walking around and insulin dysregulated, inflamed, uh, you know, metabolically, deranged, all these different horrible things are happening because our society is so broken. But one, you are clear, uh, physiologically it's allowing I think the universe to kind of clear you up, uh, consciously too.

  And so, like I've really become this person that, you know, it's great that I understand hormones and peptides and fertility and all these things, but I really like to talk about consciousness. 'cause I always say now that like if we don't raise our [00:05:00] frequency collectively as a, as a species, we're gonna blow ourselves up.

  And we've done it so many times in the past that you can really start projecting that we might do it again. And so my mission now is to A, end obesity and B, teach people that their thoughts create their reality. So that's kind of like where I'm at now.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's right up my alley actually.

  Jay: Awesome.

  Michelle: um, I'm a huge, uh, Dr. Joe Dispenza fan, um, groupie. You can call me. I've got already multiple week long retreats and when you go there and you experience, um, really the collective, that's where it's at. I mean, when you start to be in the collective soup of that similar and trained intention and consciousness, that's where you can actually say, okay, now I'm experiencing it.

  It's more than just a theory. It's a felt experience and. When you experience that, I don't think you ever really go back. And I.

  always say that yes, you can go into, you [00:06:00] know, the supplements, the diet, the, all the physical things, which matter a hundred percent. But if you don't, if you completely bypass the mind and your state of being really, then, and if there's some blocks in that category, then it doesn't matter what you do or how healthy of a lifestyle you have because you really need to address it.

  'cause actually that is sort of the, that's the foundation. That's where everything manifests from.

  Jay: Exactly. I mean, look, I, I'm so awesome that you and I are talking, and this is the universe lining us up, right? Because you thought I was just some peptide dork. But the truth is, is that we aren't anything but vibrating atoms and oscillating waves of

  Michelle: True.

  Jay: and, and the energy is infinite. And we, the only thing that limits us in this physical avatar body, in this current state of reality is our thoughts.

  And so it's as simple as a Jedi mind [00:07:00] track, as you notice, of course, I have Yoda back here. It's as simple as changing your thought processes to be open-minded, sovereign, empowered, and free consciously, versus being close-minded. Which is limited and vibrating down here in the Red Root Chakra because you're in fear, right?

  So every single day, no matter how shitty you envision, or you know, again, that's late li lacking and limiting by just saying that. But like, no matter how bad you find yourself or how bad you feel, you can change like that. And that's the beauty of living in third density reality because again, we, we can choose to serve others and be, you know, conscious and empowered, or we can choose to serve self and live as a victim.

  And, and, and nobody can say otherwise. And as you know, our society is so broken. It constantly pushes victimhood. It constantly pushes my younger daughters. To think that it's not their responsibility, that they're not, you know, accountable for all of their actions. And it's insane because [00:08:00] like it's, you see it, I see it.

  We have to really teach, you know, the younger generations that like, no, you are in complete control of your vibration and that's it. But that vibration is gonna ultimately give you the gateway to a better life.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, um, so we'll, we'll go into that for sure. I wanna talk about therapeutic peptides

  because I, I'm sure a lot of people are listening to this and they're like, what are therapeutic peptides?

  How, how is it gonna impact my body? And

  like, how do I administer it?

  Jay: Yep. So peptides are basically in, in the, the lowest common denominator of breaking them down. They're basically biomolecules that are created, uh, organically in our cells. And they're, from a scientific standpoint that people can understand. They're basically chains of amino acids.

  Michelle: Which, which the shorter the chain.

  Jay: Yeah, the, the shorter the chain. The more likely you can ingest it orally. The longer the chain, the more likely you have to inject it with [00:09:00] a insulin syringe because again, a peptide is an aqueous based, uh, solution. So most peptides are synthesized in a lab, but they are naturally occurring. I think most people probably on this show or your audience knows what BPC 1 57 is or has heard of it 'cause they have friends that are using it.

  And it's basically known as body protective compound. And it's actually secreted in the, in the digestive juices, in the gut. So to, to use it though, obviously it has to be synthesized in a lab, but again, it's a naturally occurring, uh, biomolecule. So again, when you inject it, the synthesized form, you're basically injecting something that is already naturally found in the body.

  It's, again, it's an organic peptide chain signaling molecule, so the risks of using them are very, very low. In fact, I tell people this all the time in the 24 years now that I've been using therapeutic peptides. I've never seen a person od, I've never seen a person have any kind of horrifying, have to be hospitalized effect.

  Now, the [00:10:00] exception to that rule would be the idiots. I'm sure we'll get into this on this podcast that take super high doses of GLP peptides attempting to not eat for weeks at a time because they think that that's actually as intelligent strategy to lose weight. Right? So, but even those people don't die.

  They just, you know, screw up their, um, colon and, you know, screw up their, um, digestive tract. And obviously there's all sorts of other negative things that happen because they, you know, they can have micronutrient and mineral deficiencies, protein deficiencies, nutritional deficiencies 'cause they haven't eaten for two or three weeks.

  But, um, other than that there's very, very low risk and, and, and very, very high potential reward if you understand how you use them correctly.

  Michelle: Got it. So what are the different types of peptide and specifically for fertility? 'cause you've, you've talked about actually male fertility, that you've helped a lot of men.

  Which is an important topic that is not addressed as frequently, and I have to admit, I need to be starting to talk about it more on my podcast.[00:11:00]

  Jay: So right now we are at the lowest birth rate in history. Fertility is the worst problem that it's ever been in the first world. Now why is that? Well, we live in a contaminated first world. People mostly consume engineered food, GMO food. There's endocrine disrupting chemicals in the water supply. There's phylates, there's phytoestrogens, BPA, I mean, I could go on there.

  So I mean, like people young of, of let's just call it childbearing years, which is probably really realistically 25 to 40. I know there's lots of men and women having babies in their early and mid forties now because of in vitro fertilization, et cetera. But we were designed, you know, from the 25 to 40 time to really, especially women to get the womb, you know, is ready and et cetera.

  But because the environment is so contaminated, um, because men have such low levels of FSH and, and lh, you know, follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone, they have such low levels of circulating actual spermatozoa. [00:12:00] Uh, and then the same thing is happening with women, right? Uh, you know, hormonal pathways and patterning.

  So you've got that. And, and, and when you put them both together, you have the lowest birth rate that we've ever seen. Right Now, you don't see this in the, in the, uh, first, or I should say third and fourth worlds because in the third and fourth worlds, they don't have the endocrine, uh, the, um, the disruption, you know, from, just call it modernization, right?

  Modernized living the chemicals in the environment, the EMF, you know, all the things that are in the first world that contribute, you don't see in the second and third, fourth world, uh, as much. I mean, it's starting to affect them, but it's still not as bad. So you're gonna see a higher birth rate, like in Latin America than you will in the United States.

  Again, it's all due to the chemicals in the modernization, but, um, there are definite ways that you can utilize, you know, various peptides like, uh, kisspeptin, uh, like HMG, like HCG, I mean, there's various other ones. Teigen, [00:13:00] there's tons of now Russian bio regulators like Endo Lutin. Um, that you can take that improve, um, male and female, uh, endocrine systems.

  So there's just a lot of really good advantageous, uh, you could call 'em natural means, um, where you can stimulate people's, uh, endocrine systems and obviously ultimately their fertility, but you really have to understand how to use them. And I think. I think I really should say this, I've never really said this on a podcast before, but the biggest issue that we have, um, preventing men and women from getting pregnant is inflammation due to visceral fat.

  Because when I, and I've seen, and you know, I'm a studies dork, so when I see the studies and I see the lack of the birth rate falling, I also see the increase in body fat, right? Like over the age of 40. Now, uh, the average adult in America, this is in the, in the United States alone, the average adult over the age of 40 is b is clinically obese by the, [00:14:00] uh, BMI.

  Right? So that's like, I think I saw a stat, this was in 2024, or most recent was 2024, that 63% of men and women over the age of 40 in the United States identify as obese according to the BMI. Now obviously there's some statistically variation because sometimes muscular people show as obese in the BMI, and that's also because.

  The top end of the range is affecting or variant or varying, how do I say that? The variation is due to obesity. So they're, you know, they're classifying most people based on the average person being obese. So it's a horrible situation. So obviously if you factor that in and you really drill down, you're gonna see that if people lose body fat and improve their level of leanness, that naturally their birth, uh, rates will go up.

  But again, that's not who, what we are, that's not Western society anymore. The average person walking around is clinically obese by the BMI. But if you do take those peptides you use, uh, you know, some of them are really not, um, peptides, they're kind of small [00:15:00] molecules. Uh, but you can improve birth, uh, rate and, and also the short time or the, or lessen the time it takes someone to get pregnant.

  Michelle: And are there ways, um, because you talk about longevity, like does it help with the quality of eggs? Does it help with

  mitochondria? Um, yeah. So what are some of the ways that it can do that?

  Jay: So, I mean, I guess it just really depends on what you're using peptides for, right? I mean, there's, there's right now 56 or 57, maybe 58 peptides that are commercially available, uh, that people know about. But there's thousands of peptides that are not commercially available that we have identified in the science that we could eventually utilize.

  There's peptides that can actually attack cancers, they can kill ontological tumors. Um, there's just so many different, you know, call it uses or use cases for peptides, but we don't have them yet commercially available. But in the ones that we do, um, you kind of have to classify them as like, what do they do?

  Right. Well, the five biggest [00:16:00] needle movers are like cognition, fat loss, uh, longevity or wellness. You've got immunity and healing, right? So those are kind of the biggest five classifications. And I always tell people, because you know, some people, they get into peptides and they have the shiny object syndrome going on because they're like, oh my God, I want to use all these peptides for all these different things.

  And it's like, you can't really look at your biological system functioning as like taking 'em all at once or stacking them all at once. It's like, what is the bleeding neck issue that you as an individual has? And for most people they, they've got insulin resistance or inflammation due to high levels of visceral body fat, which obviously creates the inflammation.

  So you probably want to use some peptides to, to reduce or to help you with body fat. That would be like GLP peptides, GLP two, GLP three, uh, there's obviously lots of

  Michelle: What are the difference between the different glp?

  Jay: Yeah. So, so like a GLP one peptide is like the old school [00:17:00] semaglutide, or which is known as wegovy. In the mainstream.

  And honestly, you know, I just wrote a book, it's not published yet. It comes out in February, mid-February, February 24th. It's called Metabolic Awakening with GLP one Peptides. And I go through all of these various GLP peptides, I explain what they do. Um, but most importantly, I explain how to use them correctly in the context of health and longevity and how to avoid the unmitigated disaster of the mainstream who uses them, uh, you know, with pharma instructions.

  And they obviously take too high of a dose and then they whack out the

  Michelle: Because I know that, um, in some cases my, my reservation is that there are cases where it can cause irreparable harm on the digestive system.

  Um, is it too high of a,

  Jay: So I can tell you this, as someone intimately familiar with the data on glp, then that will be proven when this book comes out. I mean, there's 1300 scientific references in it and 717 pages and it, and I [00:18:00] used it with no ai, just me and two copywriters is six months of research. All side effects with GMPs can be avoided.

  The person that takes a GLP has to obviously live a correct lifestyle and has to use them in a microdose fashion. But 95% of people using GLP do not that do not do that. Okay. So microdose versus full dose. um, which

  way too high of a dose, they blow out their receptors, and then none of them live the lifestyle that is A, necessary and b, conducive to optimizing their health.

  Right? So think about it like this, and again, I, this is all covered in the book. I, I cover every single side effect ever listed on A GLP. I have literally a chapter three is, uh, I think it's 98 pages and I dropped 50 pages out of it. But it's so exhaustive going through every single side effect and explaining why this happens and how to avoid it.

  But, um, every single thing. That people experience [00:19:00] negatively, um, from taking GLP are due to starting too high of a dose and then of course titrating higher. Um, and then b like I said, not doing any of the lifestyle requirements and the lifestyle requirements are very, very critical. But, and I'll just tell you there's like 10 of them, but I, I, I'll this podcast, we'll just talk four.

  The most important number one is are you eating enough protein to avoid catabolism AKA muscle loss? And 99% of people that use GLP do not

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: Um, number two is, are you doing resistance training to strengthen the bones and to avoid catabolism of muscle, right? Because if you do do that while you're using these, you will not have muscle loss.

  Um, so that's number two. And then, you know, three and four are, are you hormonally balanced or hormonally optimized? Which as you know, 80% of society is not. So that's also the fast path to. Losing muscle because again, this is a simple thing, thermodynamics, if you lose [00:20:00] muscle, you ultimately are going to shut down your metabolism or lower your metabolic rate because you obviously, you have to maintain muscle when you're losing body fat in order to keep everything running.

  Thyroid, uh, you know, energy metabolism, all the different things that happen when you have muscle. So when you lose it, it breaks everything else down. And then I would just say, uh, number four is, you know, like everything else, it's just good sleep hygiene and stuff like that. But many, many people, I know this is insane to think about this, but they will take a very high dose of a peptide and think that if I don't eat for two weeks, I'm gonna lose all the weight.

  It's insane. But again, the American public has not really been taught about ed, uh, nutrition at any level of education. You know, college, you know, degree doc doctors don't learn about

  Michelle: Yeah. I was just gonna say like it's more than just the public.

  Jay: Exactly. So, so, so that, and then, you know, when you really factor that in and you look at what is happening, they go to these doctors who don't understand how to give them proper instructions on lifestyle habits. And the doctor makes the most amount of money by prescribing [00:21:00] the highest amount of dose, and then they stare step the dose.

  And so literally every 10 days to two weeks, the dose is doubling. And if it's not doubling, it's going from one to 1.5. Right? So it's insane what happens. And again, again, like I said, 95% of people that experience GMPs have done it wrong and then go into their, um, you know, wherever it is that they're, they, that they scream into the either and say, these are the worst things ever.

  And then celebrity doctors glom on celebrity influencers

  Michelle: Yeah, it's important to also know your body type and because in some

  cases if you have like really bad insulin resistance and it's very difficult for your body to get on track sometimes, you know, it does require something a little stronger.

  Jay: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Look, insulin resistance is lifestyle.

  And if you don't wanna change your lifestyle, you can't use a GLP And I, and obviously I talk about a lot of this in, um, you know, the book, and, and that's why I, I really [00:22:00] am, it's a labor of love for me because my mom was obese and my mom died of COVID.

  But I mean, she was really struggling with obesity and being comorbid her, majority of her adult life. She did give birth to nine children. Um, but she, she was obese and, and she died of COVID. And, you know, I really wanted to help her. And so for 30 years of my life, I attempted to not physically, I I was probably two or three years of intervening with her when she was younger and I was younger, but then I became conscious and I realized that, you know, the, the teacher appears when the student is ready and you can't wave your arms, as you know.

  So. Uh, but at the end, you know, I was very, um, humbled and, and, and, and I was also just sad, you know, um, to watch my mom deteriorate in the way she did. And so like, I was like, you know what? If there's any person. With the knowledge to cure obesity or to tackle obesity head on, it's gonna be me. And so I eventually wrote this book, and again, I'm really proud of it.

  It's gonna come out in the end of February, around around the 24th. But it's, it's really powerful [00:23:00] book. And if we can get it into the hands of enough people, we can definitely teach people how to not be insulin resistant, metabolically deranged, and ultimately obese. Because I do teach people how to do this right.

  And I, you know, I have like, like I said, you know, tons of studies that back me up. But then I also have a chapter on transformations. Uh, and I have 16 people, men and women equally from all over the world, all walks of life. Who, you know, have incredible before and afters, but most importantly talk in their own words about what the GLP did for them and you know, how it changed everything for them and completely transformed their life and, you know, spiritually made them more aware and, and, and, you know, awakened and et cetera.

  So it's like I tell people like it's just a tool. You know, at the end of the day, it's just a tool, but like all tools we have to know how to use them, you know, in the context of health and longevity. And most people don't, as you already said. And most doctors, and of course pharma don't, that don't give a rat's ass because they just [00:24:00] wanna make money.

  You know, they don't, they're not really in it for health. I'm sure there's some doctors that are and, and lack the education or lack the actual knowledge base to really, truly help people. But there's enough smart people out there talking about microdosing and doing it correctly and interpreting the research that it doesn't, it, it shouldn't be as bad as it still is.

  And so I'm really hopeful that this book is gonna shine a really bright light, uh, on what I would call a dark hallway so far when it comes to

  Michelle: Oh yeah, I, I, it was very dark because I'll be honest, I had a lot of resistance to GLP ones, like a lot when it first came out and

  just seeing how people just took it. And, um, even friends of mine, people I know, and I was like, well, you gotta really do the research before you start this, because it's not like just some kind of simple thing.

  Like I know that there are certain problems with, um, stomach paralysis and some of 'em are like irreversible. And so then, so I was kind of, I, I initially had a very strong like, resistance, you [00:25:00] know, other ways to, to lose weight. But then I realized, um. That it's not a black and white thing. And that in some cases, it was really helping people that no matter what they did, they were not losing weight and their insulin resistance was very stubborn.

  It was really difficult for them to do anything. Like exercise sometimes made, you know, because they're so drained physically, like it

  wasn't really helping. Um, then I started hearing about microdosing and I was like, okay, well this might be a little bit of a more compromised level, you know, where it's, you're not bombarding the body with something into their system. And I just think that it was, it, there were so many unknowns and it was, it became so like, it went like wildfire, like everybody was using it and there were too many unknowns. So that was my hesitation originally. Um, but I'm still learning, you know, as a practitioner I'm still learning, but it feels like the [00:26:00] microdosing. Is less, I guess, invasive than, you know, those really high doses.

  Jay: So I actually, um, so I actually have, so I'm gonna read this to you. So, so there's a lot you just said there. There's a lot to unpack. Um, obesity is not a lack of willpower and. It's a very, how do I say it? It's a very nuanced and multi-pronged issue. And, uh, it's really, it's, it's honestly, it's, it's probably threefold.

  Um, and I have so many windows. I was just gonna read to you this summary that somebody just wrote in my book, but I can't find it now. But I, I, I, I know what obesity is caused by obesity is caused by, number one, the addiction to the hyper palatability of foods. Now, number to to, to explain that for the average listener on your audience, there are people that get paid millions, the m word dollars a year to create molecules [00:27:00] that addict people's brainwave, patternings to the food.

  And this is obviously in the fast food industry and the GMO Box food stuff industry. And so these people, the majority of them are the obese, insulin resistant people are not able to overcome the addiction from these chemicals. So they're, it's, it's really, really horrible. I mean, I, I explained this and go into detail, in depth in, in, in the book.

  And then the number two reason is, uh, due to that addiction, um, they have, they're, they're obese, they're insulin resistant, they can't move. They have pain. People have to understand this, and there's not a lot of people out there saying this, but people who are obese are in a default state of suffering.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: I mean by that is, is that you have cytokine storms in your body 24 7. So we have no idea as non-obese people what they are feeling. And so it's very, very difficult for them to exercise to [00:28:00] think clearly. 'cause you gotta understand when you're metabolically inflamed, you're mentally inflamed, so everything is affected negatively.

  And then the number third thing is obviously the result of one and two, which is they don't have the energy to do the things that we all say that they can do. Right. Or they don't have the

  Michelle: they do, sometimes they that, well, they, they don't necessarily have the energy. But I see my patients when they come to me, I mean,

  we worked on, we work on many different

  ways, like of, of, uh, trying to help through supplements. Um,

  sometimes, uh, herbals.

  So there are definitely like ways around it, but, um, they really do, they exercise like crazy.

  They don't, they don't eat a lot. Like they give me a whole list of what they eat and they still can't shed the weight

  and it's frustrating.

  Jay: Yeah. Well, I mean, again,

  Michelle: with PCOS, insulin resistant, PCOS

  Jay: yeah, I mean, I mean there's, it, it's a multi causal thing, but tho those three things that I told you are what creates it. And then once it happens, [00:29:00] it's very difficult to lose it because they are metabolically resistant. Um, it is very hard to get off. I mean, look, if you live in the Midwest where you are being bombarded by atrazine and, and, and glyphosate at all times, those chemicals sit in your fat

  tissue and are actually very difficult to metabolize.

  Michelle: Because then your bodies, your body's protecting itself from like getting too many toxins all at once, and our

  fat cells love to store them. Yeah.

  Jay: the reason you have all that fat, because the fat is the protection from the toxins. So it, it, it is, it's

  Michelle: it's a multi, yeah, for sure. Another thing is you can go to Europe. Where they don't have as many chemicals and

  eat pasta and like, I mean, carbs galore and lose weight.

  Jay: Yeah, exactly. No,

  Michelle: And absolutely true.

  so something in,

  in the American food. And I think that it's beyond just like the addiction, it's beyond the taste.

  'cause you can eat the same amount. It's the [00:30:00] chemicals that they put in, whatever it is in the they, they put, they process it. I think the best way to maybe control it is to, I don't know, grow your own food if you can. Or like do something

  Jay: Well, you have to, you have to get, you have to su you have to order. There are companies out there that sell very organic, sustainable meals, and you have to obviously have money to get that. I mean, that's what my wife and I eat. I mean, look, I, I travel the world a lot. Um, I can't eat American food. I can't go to a restaurant in America and order anything.

  I took my daughter out to dinner for her 18th birthday on Sunday night, and we went to a Ana Teki Steakhouse here in Tampa. Very famous one. I couldn't eat it, you know? Um, they put so much chemical, like you said, processed chemicals, additives, whatever, flavoring. It's insane. I just come back from two weeks in Mexico where I ate out every night at either a steak, a tie, uh, you know, different, uh, uh, uh, uh, Brazilian, um, you know, Ecuadorian, like just flavors of the world.

  And the food is [00:31:00] succulent amazing. There's You taste delicious and you lose Exactly. E exactly. So, so we're, we are under assault in America, and it really does now take a very conscious being, uh, who's super proactive to avoid it. You know, I mean, that's, there's a reason I told my wife and I, we don't go out to eat. You know, you, you know, there's nothing to do.

  I drink a lot of really, really good protein shakes. I get the free ingredient, almond milk, you know, I drink water and three ingredient almond milk. That's it.

  Michelle: basics, you know?

  Um, I think that that's the way literally cannot eat packaged food or go to grocery, or I'm sorry, restaurants that are layering all this crap on the food.

  Jay: You literally be sick. Or if you're not sick, it's what you and I already talked about. You're, you know, metabolically, uh, resistant, insulin resistant and, and probably having too much body fat.

  Michelle: Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause I think about it as more than obviously like what you're intaking, but also like the way your body's using energy, we're able to access energy. It's almost like there's a [00:32:00] block to our body's ability to access our own energy, which

  is what keeps it into, into

  Jay: The a hundred percent. I mean, America is the most metabolically, dysregulated nation on earth. That's a hundred percent fact. And it really is, you know, everything is broken down. Obviously since COVID, that's a whole nother thing. A lot of people broke psychologically and have given up. But if you don't, you know, well, let's just say this, th this is a statistical fact.

  You'll, the L, the leaner you are, the longer you'll live, right? If you look at all the blue zone people and the octogenarian people. You know, I mean, you could get into a debate of quantity versus quality, but most of those people are, you know, Asians and they're very lean, they're tiny people. Uh, they live into their a hundred, you know, they get into 1 0 8, 1 0 9, 1 10.

  The people are even into one teens. But all of those people have zero inflammation. They have no body fat. So if you want to [00:33:00] extend your life, and obviously you can't account for a plane crash or getting hit by a car or any of that stuff, but if you wanna extend your life, you wanna lower your level of body fat, because again, body fat is what creates inflammation.

  Inflammation is what creates, uh, cellular degradation, which leads to disease. Every single disease state that we know of is coming from inflammation, uh, heart attack, inflammation. Uh, type three diabetes, type two diabetes, inflammation, insulin resistance, right? And so it's like if we understand that and we lower our body fat, you know, as much as we possibly can, as we age, then statistically we will live longer.

  It just obviously becomes, as, you know, uh, especially doing the work that you do, that it, if, if you have all these other, you know, issues of resistance, um, it's much harder to lose the weight. And so that's why I say that if you understand how to use a GLP two or use a GLP three, and of course, of course, I explained that in the book, um, it, it is a good [00:34:00] tool to help people who otherwise lack tools or struggle, uh, to lose weight.

  And by the way, just so you know, I, I think the GLP one is a completely worthless drug, and I talk about that in the book. Um, it was a, it was a useful tool when it had utility in the marketplace, but it's been passed up. And I also say now that like this book in two years. The stuff that I recommend. Now, I may say that is also useless and is now completely obsolesce because of what's in the pipeline.

  And that's, to me, that's what's really cool about the industry is that we are in a biomedical golden age. But in order for you as a, as a, you know, call it a conscious consumer, um, you have to, like you said already, you have to do the work. You have to do your own research, you have to listen to intelligent people, uh, who can explain this stuff to you.

  But the tools are accessible and available. You just have to learn how to do 'em. And I think you also know this too, the signal to noise ratio, especially on the internet, is [00:35:00] mostly noise and very little signal. So it also becomes harder for people who listen to, you know, fake influencers or people that act like they know what they're talking about.

  I mean, I always tell people this, and we haven't said this on this call, 90 to 95, it's probably somewhere in the middle of that 92, 90 3% of people online that talk about peptides have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: Literally no idea. They're making things up. I mean, I, again, I've been using 'em for 24 years.

  There's very few people that understand it at the level that I understand, and that includes doctors, researchers, and I hear people talking about these, and I'm like, that person just made that up. But the average person who doesn't know this, doesn't understand that. Right? So they're constantly being led down paths that aren't true.

  You know, and, and don't get me going about AI AI is literally hallucinating Right. Yeah, I know.

  Do you know that I, I'll, I'll, this, you're the only person I've ever shared this with on a podcast. I, as I told you, [00:36:00] the book has zero ai, no AI summaries, no AI conclusions, no AI adaption. There was at one point in the Google document where I was like, you know what?

  This book is amazing. Let me just see. And my, and my copywriter was like, I will resign. If you do it, we don't care. But.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: have done this. And by the way, my name is very big in AI because of my research and my work. I have asked AI in the past, in the last three weeks, and I don't use AI in anything to do, but I did this as a game, six different questions, about six different peptides.

  Uh, and they were all the same questions, but asked in a different way. And every single answer was different and wrong.

  Michelle: Ask, Ask,

  Somebody told me,

  Jay: one. Imagine the youth who are not, you know, as savvy as you and I are, have been a long, round longer, who are being influenced by ai. I think of my daughters, you know, they're 16 and 18 years old, um, and they think that AI is God.

  They think that AI is [00:37:00] the answer. It's insane. I mean, literally they are learning nothing.

  Michelle: Um, it's a tool. You could use it for some things. Um, but you really need to be leading that ship. You can't

  allow it to be the

  Jay: you can't use it to think.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Jay: A lot of young people. A lot of young people do use it to think,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: and that's a big problem because they're outsourcing their discernment and their conscious communication. They're, they're outsourcing their brain power.

  It's lowering iq. That's not

  Michelle: Well, I think our phones already started that.

  Jay: Well, of course, but I, but think about it, if you're 15 years old now and you ask AI for the answer, you're not thinking,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: and that's what all these kids do.

  I mean, I, I talk to people that are, you know, old friends of mine that are now working as professors in college and stuff like that, and they tell me stories that I can't even, I mean, I, I can't comprehend it. I mean, imagine if your whole job was trying to determine like what papers that were submitted were, were written by ai and what was it?

  Michelle: Uh, well, I mean, there's, I think there's ways to do [00:38:00] that. You can, um,

  Jay: Well, yeah, well, they all know it. But I mean, imagine if that was your job.

  Michelle: God, but you know what, um, I, I mean, I, I remember growing up having to remember like people's phone numbers. Like my brain used to actually

  Jay: of us can

  Michelle: and I fight it. I fight it now. Like I try to almost catch myself and I still try to, you know, write things down

  and do things that I used to do where

  Jay: write everything down.

  Michelle: it's so much better.

  And I because I, there was a time where I was typing, so, 'cause I type fast, so I always type and then I said, wait, I need to, like my handwriting, I need to use my hand. To write more. Yeah,

  Jay: It's a weird, it's a weird day and age that we're in. Um, you're right. It's a tool just like peptides are tools. GMPs are tools, hormones are tools. But I do think that far too many people, especially going back to the signal to noise ratio with it mostly being noise, people think of these tools as answers or [00:39:00] as fundamental agents, and they're not,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: they're just a tool, as you said, very

  Michelle: it's, we undermine ourselves. I think that we don't realize how powerful we are, which is

  why we're always seeking outside of us.

  And the ancients have always told us, you want, the answers go within.

  It's always been go

  Jay: Yes, yes, yes.

  Michelle: And so I, I think that that's, um, we, you know, it's, it feels easier to go without, but you're, you're not, it's gonna be a fake illusion.

  You're not, you're not getting the real thing.

  Jay: Exactly. Exactly. I'm, we, we, we see, we see very eye to eye. Exactly. I mean, um, it's an interesting time because. Thankfully, there are a lot of people like us now. I mean, I, I don't know how many of there are like us, but I mean, I think there's a lot more than there was say, five years ago. Um, but there's not enough of us.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: You know, like David Ike just wrote this amazing book called The Roadmap. I highly recommend you get it and read it. Um, you know, there's, he talks about Joe Dispenza in the book, but it's an amazing book [00:40:00] because he teaches you not that he always hasn't been teaching you, and there are of course, other people teaching you, and you and I already know this, but literally everything is a perception deception.

  And when you change your view to be open-minded, you are connected to infinity. And when you are close-minded, you are connected to basically whatever lack and limitation mindset or scarcity mindset that you have. So it's like you could either be open-minded and open to everything and the abundance and the prosperity that the universe can provide, or you can be closed-minded and closed off.

  It's as simple as that. I mean, I know that that sounds overly simplistic, but it's not, and I feel like that's a great way to teach people who are starting to really start walking the path that you and I have been walking for a long time. Because if they could just change their viewpoint from being limiting to being open and expansive, everything changes.

  Michelle: well, I feel in, in the sense of, you know, I guess all the [00:41:00] data points that people get when they're on the fertility journey or the messages that they get from their doctors, like, um, well, you know, you're getting old and

  all, all the things, all the things that were figured out thus far. And I

  often say this and. Hopefully people have heard me say this a couple of times so that it really kind of gets in their minds. But the two things that I always say is, um, if you look up, the oldest person that conceived and had a baby naturally, um, was this woman named Dawn Brooks in England. And she was, uh, 59 when she had her.

  She got

  pregnant, 58, um, had the baby at 59 Healthy baby. Uh, good birth like, and I think to myself, okay, and then I kind of, uh, I always couple this with a Roger Banister effect

  of, oh, it's impossible

  to

  beat the four minute mile. And then he goes ahead and like, after years and years and years of being told that it's physically impossible, beats it, and then within a month or [00:42:00] two, like multiple people beat it,

  how is it that all of a sudden that opened the door?

  It was just, it's a mindset that it's possible. And I think that what happens is, again, we put so much of our belief in other people and what they say. That we allow that to seep into our consciousness and we don't, without even realizing we're put, putting limitations. And I think, um, I will say, I think that one of the things that I'll attribute to a lot of my success, and I'm not saying this in any kind of conceited way or

  anything like that, I really feel very dedicated to this work of helping couples conceive and, and have families.

  And, and, um, I think the biggest thing that I can attribute it to is that I believe in them. I believe

  that they can do it. And I think as a practitioner, when you believe in them, subconsciously, they don't realize, but it gives them permission to believe in themselves. It's unfortunate that they need me or anybody else to, to have that, but I guess we, you know, we're not islands.

  We do need [00:43:00] people. We need, um. We need that support. But I think that it's important really to, when you're talking about that expansiveness, that open-mindedness to be, to go beyond the limitations of what we've been given, go beyond the

  limitations of what has been studied thus far.

  You know, it's just been studied thus far.

  That

  doesn't mean that there's not other possibilities out there. Um, and I think that we get so limited and science gets limited, and then, um, we look like crazy people talking about things that haven't yet happened. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's, there's many like us that are probably afraid to speak because they're like, oh, well if I speak about this stuff, I'll seem too woo.

  Or, you know, and that's literally what happens. It's because you're not limiting yourself to everything that's already been discovered.

  Jay: Exactly. So if you understand, everything you just said can be summed up very simply that if you understand the quantum all is possible and all is probable. So when you [00:44:00] understand it at that level, there is no limitation. In fact, the mind is the prison. Of human consciousness, because again, you just said it, right?

  Like if we are afraid, I mean, fear is the ultimate saboteur, but if we are afraid or if we think that others may judge us or label us, or you know, say like you said, woo, then you're instantly in that lack again, limitations, scarcity, you know, mindset, and you're not open to expansion, which is obviously abundance, um, prosperity, et cetera.

  So you just have to play the game at a level of like, Hey, okay, all is possible. Not only is all is possible, but I'm going to allow that awareness into my conscious frequency in everything that I do, because I know that the opposite will limit me. It's as simple as that. But I mean, I agree with everything you said, and I know it's actually true.

  Um, and, and that's why I always say it's like it's as simple as just changing your [00:45:00] perception that you are an infinite being and that you're not identifying, as you were saying, as this. I'm a white male, or I'm this religion, I'm this, you know, et cetera. And you just have this kind of like, I'm open and allowing to all, again, the quantum all is possible.

  And so I don't have any limitations. I don't have any, uh, self identities of this, that, or everything. And because you, you said it best, like we usually are taught from an early age at birth to self-identify with limitation in everything. There's a limitation. You know, I'm this, you know how many people have come to you and they're like, oh, but you know, diabetes runs in my family, or autoimmune runs in my family, or, you know, they've been, they've heard this insane diagnosis given them to

  Michelle: And, and there was a time, there was a time where the.

  Jay: true. How, how was it a

  Michelle: used to believe that there was no neuroplasticity until

  they

  Jay: oh, I see what you're saying.

  Michelle: that there was a [00:46:00] so, so in the perception, I mean, like in the

  matrix,

  Jay: no, I got you. I, I understand what you're saying, but yeah, so

  Michelle: so there was a saying. But that in and of itself proves that you are limiting in your thought process. Look, all the great accomplished people of society, going back thousands of years did not have a lack, scarcity, or limitation mindset.

  Jay: It's as simple as that. You could not create, I could actually make an argument. I can't prove it, but I can make an argument that the more open your mind is to expansion, the less, I'm sorry, the more likely you are to be communicated with by higher density or higher dimensional sources. Because I truly think that even like Joseph Vicenza, like people like that, like they're so deep into the connection with the universe that they get i wisdom or information or insights imparted, imparted into them.

  You know, you could probably call it telepathically or just again, just consciously because of the work they're doing, [00:47:00] right. I think that's really what happens. I think that all great advancements come from people that do not have that limiting mindset or that limiting belief, and so now it's kind of like seeping.

  I mean, however you define it, it seeps into their consciousness and they're like, boom, I got this great idea

  Michelle: So

  here's what I'm gonna say very much in line with that. My belief in doing this for 10 years, um, is that people who feel deep in their gut or in their soul or viscerally that

  Jay: Yeah.

  Michelle: want to conceive. I don't think that's random. I don't

  think that feeling is a random thing. I

  Jay: I agree.

  Michelle: it's isolated.

  I don't think it's just a desire. I think it's actually a calling. And I think that if you have that calling, um, and I think that this kind of comes down to like not really realizing how powerful you are, um, if you have that calling, that is your intuition, that is your higher self, that is your intelligence telling you it's [00:48:00] possible.

  Jay: That's awesome. Yeah. That's not a belief, that's a knowing. I would, I, I would, I would tell you,

  Michelle: that's another, uh, yeah. Level.

  Jay: tell you to change your conscious word languaging and stop using the word belief, because belief is actually the enemy of knowing. And so you know it. And everything that you told me today, you knew and know.

  So it's like I state that I know this because my superconscious wisdom, my higher self, my connection to the divine is literally telling me this, and it's up to me to act on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: So yes, I agree a hundred percent. You create your reality with your thoughts, and it just takes us to investigate that both consciously and through action to recognize that it's real.

  Michelle: Yeah, I see it also as a connection with the spirit, baby, kind of the energy. There's

  Jay: A hundred percent.

  Michelle: I do feel there's a communication I've seen, um, I've heard crazy stories of synchronicities that happen once people are open to it or ask for that guidance and that communication,

  Jay: Like [00:49:00] that. It

  Michelle: so I don't feel like it's just this isolated, like, I, I just want it, therefore I'm gonna get it.

  I feel like there's something even higher than that

  where they're I, I, I'll say this, you can't, like a lot of people in the, call it new age, think that if they just wish it into existence, it's gonna happen. You have to take action at, at, at this level of reality. You can't think it into reality. You have to actually think it, see it perceptually, visualize it, understand it, and then take action to achieve it.

  Jay: So I think like in energetic densities, you know, if we call 'em angelic beings or you know, whatever, divine guides or whatever, I think that they have that capability and that's why they're always constantly helping us, right? Like, if you're in this level of reality, you ask for help and you truly, intuitively desire it and, and, and are asking for the help, I think the help comes, I don't think it just like they just hand you.

  A shovel, right? Or a bunch of money. But I think that intuitively you'll eventually get it. You just have to do the work that is necessary to [00:50:00] earn it, and that's how you ultimately will get it. But nothing is out of the realm of possibility. That's how I see things.

  Michelle: And you've helped, um, kind of going back to, you had mentioned that you've helped a lot of men, um, also with their fertility.

  Like what have you

  Jay: thousands. I've literally helped thousands. I have tons of a-list celebrities that I've helped get pregnant. Uh, I can't of course mention their names, but I've helped a lot of, a lot of people, uh, get pregnant. And again, you know, I have a protocol. Um, it's really simple to increase, um, FSH and lh, which is obviously the most important factors for men.

  And you have to use, uh, HMG and H CG in combination. Uh, and you don't need high dosages. Most doctors, you know, whack out people by giving them too high dosages. You just need a microdose and you just need to stay. Taking it. And you also have to have the mindset that you already mentioned. You know, you have to honestly think that you're going to get your wife or your significant other or your partner pregnant.

  And when you do that, and obviously the lifestyle's important [00:51:00] too, right? You can't be doing a bunch of bad things and having bad habits. But if you're living the lifestyle that's conducive to being fertile with the right mindset and right with these agents, and again, that's, you know, it's human menopausal genotropin and human chorionic genotropin together, um, they will definitely stimulate FS, H and LH to get to a point where you will be shooting very, very fertile sperm.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. And then as far as, um, I, I'm gonna go back to the insulin resistance. You were talking about lifestyle choices. What are some of the lifestyle choices if somebody's listening to this and maybe has insulin resistant PCOS or is trying to get to a healthy weight and struggling?

  Jay: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, there's a lot of things to do, but the first thing to do is to change your lifestyle so that you live insulin controlled, and I don't think most people even understand what that means. I've said that to so many people and they're like, Jay, I don't know what the hell that means.

  So I always say you eat carbohydrates relative to the energetic demand that you have in your life, right? So what does that [00:52:00] mean deeper? It means that if you lift weights. Uh, you know, you're a quote unquote biohacker. Bodybuilder, you know, not a professional or competitive one, but you'd lift weights three or four days a week.

  You can eat more carbohydrates than a person who doesn't. And, and, and the reason that is, is because obviously when you lift weights, you are depleting muscle glycogen, which is the primary fuel source of glucose, substrate of glucose. And so someone like that who's doing resistance training or bone bearing training, or really any kind of serious athlete who's depleting muscle glycogen, they can eat more carbohydrates than a person who's sedentary, right?

  So you really have to understand that. Um, I don't really ever get into like, types of eating. Um, but obviously I, I'm great. I, I love intermittent fasting. I love alternate day fasting. I love people that reduce their carbohydrate consumption. Um, you know, intelligently, I think metabolic flexibility is the most important tenet of in curing insulin resistance.

  Again, you are fueling your body relative to your energetic demand. Uh, and [00:53:00] then you can get really, you know, deeper and esoteric. You can obviously, hormonally optimize yourself. Most people don't, are are walking around with a hormone deficiency. So therapeutic hormones, obviously testosterone, estradiol, progesterone, S-D-H-E-A, pregnenolone, there's a lot of things.

  Uh, and then beyond that. Really, you can really get esoteric and use peptides like a GLP peptide, like a GLP three, which is ide uh, it improves appetite, um, I'm sorry, insulin signaling and nutrient partitioning. It bumps your metabolic rate slightly. Uh, so combined with hormones, combined with living insulin controlled, combined with doing weight training and doing cardiovascular training, uh, you could then, if you really wanna get deeper down the rabbit hole, you could start using mitochondrial optimizing peptides like a Mott C, like a five amino, like an SS 31.

  There are others. Um, but that's kind of really the way, you know, at the really bleeding edge tip of the spear way to, uh, you know, improve insulin resistance, lower metabolic [00:54:00] dysregulation, uh, you know, lower cellular inflammation. Um, that's kind of the, those are the real ultimate, you know, pass from the base to the, to the higher end.

  Michelle: So from all the different G LPs, um, one, two, and three, you had mentioned one is kind of like not as great. Um, would you say three is the best or

  is there, is there a

  Jay: So it's a good question. I think it depends on how metabolically dysregulated you are. And what I mean by that is if you are dealing with food addiction, uh, again, the hyper palatability of food is screwing with your brain and you have just unsatiable appetite, uh, you probably need a GLP two, like a tirzepatide.

  There are others, cabri aide, something that will help suppress your appetite because IDE the GLP three is increasing everything else. And so you really want to have something with mild appetite suppression that will help you not overeat. But most people who don't have that, you know, addiction to [00:55:00] food or that cravings to food who are not overeating, they can just get by with a microdose of a GLP three and that's gonna help them do everything else.

  Um, and you already said it. I mean, as long as you're exercising, you're doing a combination of lifting weights and doing a combination of cardiovascular training. You don't need much. You just, you have to do it effectively. That's a whole nother thing. You know, I see the majority of people that go to the gym and lift weights have no idea what they're doing, right?

  They don't train to positive muscle failure. They don't train to an intensity where they actually get results. They just kind of go through the motions or just their fuck, their form sucks. Uh, you know, they're using ego or momentum. You see this equally in men and women. Actually, women know how to train better than most men.

  I mean, 'cause they follow, they follow instructions. A lot better than men do. And you know, men will just like see a big strong muscular dude and be like, oh, I'm gonna do what that guy's gonna do, you know, and then just use a bunch of jerking ego momentum and not have any idea what they're doing. But, um, as long as you train effectively, and I always tell people like, [00:56:00] training effectively is not living heavy weights.

  It's literally using your body's natural anatomical levers and, uh, physiology to contract muscle fibers at maximum rate. And, and you don't need heavy weight. You can lift it 50 to 55% of your one repetition maximum do 20 to 25 reps and do a couple sets, and you can still build an amazing physique and build muscle very easily regardless of your genetics.

  So it just, it's learning on how to take your body to a specific level of intensity when you're trained. Uh, and then it's the same thing with your cardio. You know, you can't just spin your wheels, you know, you have to go in there, obviously intentional. With an idea that like, Hey man, I really wanna do this to help burn body fat, to help me burn calories at rest more effectively.

  And I think, and you know, the studies show that steady state cardio consistently over time will burn more fat while you're at rest or per unit of rest than actually high intensity [00:57:00] cardio. I'm not against high intensity cardio. I think high intensity cardio is good at times, but it's the duration and it's also the, uh, you know, what would I say, the consistency of cardio because you can't just do one event of HIT every week and expect to be in condition.

  You know, especially when you've got, you're going up against people or competing against people who are doing cardio every day.

  Michelle: And actually, too much exercise can also impact the

  hormone. So it's a good, you, know, you, want a good

  Jay: there's no such thing as too much exercise.

  Michelle: Oh, no, there is. Oh no, there is.

  Jay: No, no, no. It'll shut down the

  Michelle: hypothalamic.

  Jay: exercise. 99% of people cannot do too much exercise.

  But yes, what you're saying is,

  is shut down their periods.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, don't get me wrong, like that's where I was going with this. Like people that exercise too much have a compulsion, but if you walk like three times a day uphill for 10 or 15 minutes, that's not too much

  Michelle: No, no, [00:58:00] no. A hundred

  Jay: No, I know. We agree on the same thing.

  I'm just saying that like I hear people say, I'm overtrained and I'm like, you wouldn't even know what overtrain was if you got hit with a board in the head. Like Overtrained is what you just said. Like people that do um, ultra endurance stuff and they run 40 miles a day or stupid shit like that, right?

  Where they do lose their periods. And by the way, all of those people I've worked with, a lot of those people, they've come to me like I have to correct their their life, but many of them have like a compulsion. Running or doing it, like you said, over training. And so it's like you have to actually psychologically show them like, Hey, dude, if you keep doing this, burning through all these calories every day, it's not actually helping you.

  It's making you worse. But yes, um, you don't need much. I mean, um, the average person to to, to lower their body fat, improve their insulin resistance, you know, needs three or four cardio sessions a week and two or three, uh, you know, 15, 20 minute lifting weight sessions. That's it. But again, you have to do them effectively.

  You really have to do them effectively. And I [00:59:00] always tell people, if you don't know what that means, hire a professional coach or trainer that can teach you the movements and teach you the correct form, um, to understand how to do this. Because obviously most people go through their whole life and never hire a coach or a trainer and just continually do the same thing over and over again and literally get no results and actually physiologically get wor worse as they age.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Well, that's, um, great information. And so for people listening that wanna check out your books and wanna follow you and get more information, how can they find you?

  Jay: Yeah. So, um, the, the primary way to find me is my website, which is JAY campbell.com. I also have a domain there that for people who watch me on podcasts, they can go to j campbell.com/free-info and they can download a copy of all the books I've written right now, there's eight. The ninth one will be up probably in like 60 days once it's out and published.

  I do give my books away for [01:00:00] free all the time because obviously I do know that there are many people who are disadvantaged in third and fourth and fifth World who can't, you know, economically afford, uh, a book purchased on Amazon or purchased wherever. So I always give away my books for free. And then of course, you can also find me, uh, on social media, j Campbell 3, 3, 3.

  And then my company is Bio Longevity Labs. Um, dot com and um, right now we're probably the second biggest company in the world selling therapeutic peptides and bio regulators and small molecules.

  Michelle: Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Jay. This was a great conversation. Um, we

  went into lots of different topics, but it was all fun. It was

  all great stuff.

  Jay: definitely was. I really appreciate you having me on.

  Michelle: Okay.

  [01:01:00]

Ep 376 The Secret to Blood Flow, Hormones, and Longevity with Nitric Oxide Expert Dr. Nathan S. Bryan

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Nathan S. Bryan (@drnathansbryan), a leading scientist and world-renowned expert in nitric oxide research.

We explore why nitric oxide is foundational for fertility, blood flow, hormone health, and longevity, and how poor nitric oxide production impacts egg quality, uterine lining, sperm motility, insulin sensitivity, and mitochondrial function. Dr. Bryan also breaks down common misconceptions around beet supplements, mouthwash, fluoride, and medications that can quietly block nitric oxide production.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone trying to conceive, navigating hormonal imbalances, or looking to support long-term reproductive and metabolic health by addressing root causes.

Key Takeaways: 

• Why blood flow to the uterus, ovaries, and testes is essential for conception and IVF success

• How nitric oxide supports cellular energy, oxygen delivery, and reproductive function

• The connection between nitric oxide, blood sugar regulation, and PCOS

• Why nitric oxide is critical for energy production, aging, and cellular repair

• How sugar, fluoride, mouthwash, and acid-blocking medications impair nitric oxide production
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
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• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 376 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Nathan S. Bryan, a leading scientist biotech entrepreneur, and one of the most recognized experts in nitric oxide research. With over a hundred peer reviewed publications and dozens of patients, Dr.

  Brian has spent nearly three decades studying how nitric oxide is produced in the body, where it goes, and why it matters for blood flow, cellular energy, longevity, and disease prevention. In this conversation, we go deep into what nitric oxide is. Why it's foundational for circulation and oxygen delivery, and how it influences key systems that matter for fertility, including uterine blood flow, mitochondrial function, and metabolic health.

  Dr. Brian also challenges a [00:01:00] major misconception many of us have heard in the wellness world, including practitioners such as myself, that B products automatically boost nitric oxide. He explains why many commercial nitric oxide boosters don't deliver what they claim. And what needs to be in place for the body to make nitric oxide effectively.

  We also cover what blocks nitric oxide production, including blood sugar issues, certain medications and disruptions to the oral microbiome, plus his perspective on testing dosing and what true nitric oxide support looks like. When the body can't produce enough on its own, if you're a practitioner, a biohacker, or someone who is on the fertility journey and really cares about fertility, circulation, and healthy aging, this episode will give you a fresh science-based understanding of a molecule that may be far more central to health than most [00:02:00] people realize.

  All of Dr. Brian's links, including his book resources are in the episode notes, and this also includes a coupon code that you can use for the products we talk about. Now, let's dive in. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brian.

  Dr. Nathan: So much for having me. Great to be with you.

  Michelle: Yeah. So I'm really excited to get into the topic that we're gonna be talking about today. But before we get started, I always like to have a little introductory origin story and how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, for sure. You know, just like any life or career, it's been a journey. I'm a small town, Texas boy, grew up, you know, about an hour outside of Austin in central [00:03:00] Texas. Went to the University of Texas outta high school, got a degree in biochemistry, and then from there I went to LSU School of Medicine.

  I got a PhD in Molecular and Cellular Physiology, and that was at the time the Nobel Prize had just been awarded for the discovery of nitric oxide. You know, I was a first year student, was looking to do research and was introduced to this new science of nitric oxide. So that's where. You know, I was first introduced to this.

  We knew it was an important discovery, an important molecule because a Nobel Prize had just been awarded. But even then, you know, it's been 25, almost 30 years ago. Now when, and there were, and understand nitric oxide is a gas that's naturally produced in the body, and once it's produced, it's gone in less than a second.

  So the work I did during my PhD was trying to figure out when nitric oxides produce, where does it go? What does it become and how does it signal? Then once we figured that out, then I went to Boston University School of Medicine. I did a, a postdoctoral fellowship there in cardiology and vascular biology, continuing the research on nitric [00:04:00] oxide and, you know, publishing a, a number of papers, high impact papers.

  And then from there I was recruited by Fred Murad, one of the guys who shared the Nobel Prize and got my first faculty position as a professor of molecular medicine at UT Medical School in Houston. Back in. In Texas looking for a way to get back to Texas from Boston. You know, it was culture shock for a small town, country boy, but really my work continued There is, you know, for 10 years in academia made a lot of discoveries, fought a lot of patents ' cause we'd figured out how to make nitric oxide.

  We understood how the human body made nitric oxide. We understand what, what led to a loss of its natural production. And then we could start to develop product technology and drug therapy. To overcome nitric oxide deficiency. So, you know, 25 years you know, a lot of education, a lot of training a lot of discoveries, a lot of research.

  And you know, I've published today, I guess over a hundred peer reviewed papers, dozens of issues, patents. And so here we are and we've learned a lot, but we still have a lot to do.

  Michelle: You sound very smart [00:05:00] and well versed. Which I love because I think that when you really spend your career focusing on one thing, you really become an expert and it's becomes like your, you know, and, and it is an important thing you're focusing on. I know with my work. We work a lot on trying to get more blood flow to the uterus to try to get help women conceive and also have more success in through IVF where when they're uterine lining is too thin.

  So some of the things that I do is I try to, you know, suggest things like bee root things that increase nitric oxide. But I know, you know, a lot more on really how the body processes it, which I'm really excited to learn about today as a practitioner. And I know a lot of people listening to this, this is actually a really important molecule.

  Molecule you said, right?

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, well hopefully after this conversation we're gonna get you off of beet juice. Juice is not a source of nitric oxide.

  Michelle: Okay, so, so I wanna learn more about this 'cause I know that it [00:06:00] helps with blood. It's not beet juice. It's a beet root powder,

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. Good root powder. Yeah. But unfortunately most of the commercial products out there are, are, have, provide zero nitric oxide benefit. In fact, we've used a number of these as placebos in clinical trials. But because I think there's, there's a misconception and I, that's why these conversations are important because we have to, we have to correct the record.

  Michelle: For sure. And I'll be the first to say that I'm always learning new things. And of course, you know, sometimes we, we learn wrong things as well. So, first of all, explain to people who are first hearing about this, what nitric oxide is past, like being a molecule. Like what is it, what does it do in the body?

  And and then we can go into the misconceptions.

  Dr. Nathan: Sure. Well now nitric oxide, as I mentioned, it's a gas, it's what we call a signaling molecule. It's how cells in the body communicate with one another. It was first discovered as a vasodilator, meaning that it, when it's produced in the lining of the blood vessel. It opens up the blood vessel. So now we're gonna get better blood flow and oxygen delivery to those [00:07:00] downstream tissues.

  But today we know that it's much more than a vasodilator. It's a signaling molecule that it affects protein structure and functions and turns enzymes. And, and on or off, depending upon which enzymes it is, it mobilizes our own stem cells. So now we're gonna repair and replace dysfunctional cells and lead to better recovery.

  It activates the mitochondria. The energy producing organelles of the cell. And then it also activates an enzyme called telomerase, which prevents the ends of our chromosomes or telomeres from our chromosomes from getting shorter. And we know now know today that the shorter telomere, shorter lifespan, longer telomeres, longer lifespan.

  So when we look at what nitric oxide does, it improves blood flow circulation, oxygen delivery, mobilizes stem cells activates mitochondria, prevents telomere shortening. That's the foundation for human optimization, longevity disease prevention. Because the hot marks of every single chronic disease is low blood flow.

  You lose the regulation of blood flow to that organ, [00:08:00] and then you develop inflammation, oxidative stress, and immune dysfunction. And fortunately for us, and fortunately for the world, nitric oxide overcomes all of this. It addresses the root cause of every age related chronic disease.

  Michelle: That's incredible. You know, originally I'm thinking about how it dilates blood vessels and that helps with blood flow. They did actually see that blood flow as women age impacts equality as well. And you're mentioning also the mitochondria and how it really kind of is an anti-age or longevity molecule.

  So I would love to talk about how how it is absorbed best in the body.

  Dr. Nathan: Well, again, nitric oxides a gas, it's not a pill you can swallow. It's, you don't get it in a powder, you don't get it in a capsule, and you don't get it in a gummy or a chew. We have to understand how the human body makes this molecule. Then allow for its natural production, or you can do, like we did, we actually create a solid dose [00:09:00] form of ni oxide gas.

  So, you know, in 2007, we, we published the very first study showing that nitric oxide is actually a hormone. So not dissimilar to estrogen replacement or estradiol in women, or testosterone in men, or, you know, thyroid hormone replacement. We have to restore the production of this molecule or actually give the actual molecule.

  So if your body can't make it, then we have to provide it for you. But I think most importantly, you've gotta figure out why is your body not producing ample amounts of nitric oxide? That's the fundamental question we should try to answer. And then stop doing the things that inhibit its production, start doing the things that can activate and stimulate its production.

  And then we, we've, we've addressed a lot of root cause of, of chronic disease. But again, nitric oxide is a gas when it's produced either in the lining of the blood vessel or it's produced in the stomach or in the oral cavity from bacteria. It's absorbed immediately. It binds to activates an enzyme called gu cyclase starts the second messenger system.

  It binds directly to proteins or cystine ths on proteins, and it [00:10:00] affects the protein, the structure and function. Hemoglobin is the best example. You know, when we breathe in oxygen, oxygen binds the he iron of hemoglobin. It goes from the arteries to the vein, and then during that arterial transit, arterial venous transit through the capillaries.

  A hemoglobin molecule senses what's called a P 50, the 50% oxygen saturation, and then once it senses that it undergoes a confirmational change to offload oxygen and pick up carbon dioxide. But nitric oxide is what regulates that nitric oxide bound to a single cysteine residue is what regulates hemoglobin allery and oxygen delivery.

  So without mitric oxide, you can't deliver oxygen. And that's what we saw during COVID. People weren't out of oxygen, they were out of nitric oxide to deliver that oxygen.

  Michelle: Oh, interesting.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. The people that got sick and died from COVID with the same people get sick and died from the seasonal flu.

  And those are the people who are nitric oxide deficient, the elderly hearted diabetics, kidney disease patients. Yeah, so [00:11:00] immunocompromised patients, especially the respiratory viruses, are always nitric oxide deficient.

  Michelle: So, so that's what I was gonna ask you actually, what inhibits production. You had mentioned a couple of different things that can do that. You said immunodeficient people, what about autoimmune conditions?

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, autoimmune is just, it's really the inability to recognize self from non-self, and, you know, so that leads to chronic inflammation. So a lot of times nitric oxide isn't gonna fix. The autoimmunity from my perspective, it starts in the in the stomach and not having sufficient stomach acid to break down proteins into amino acid to get peptide fragments absorbed across the gut.

  And your body recognizes as a foreign antigen you need develop autoimmune disease, but it certainly can suppress the inflammatory response. Nitric oxide is a potent anti-inflammatory molecule. In fact, they have a number of patents on a method of reducing inflammation by nitric oxide. But when, when we get back to the fundamental question of what leads to a loss of nitric oxide production, we had first understand how does the human body make it?

  And so there's, there's two primary [00:12:00] pathways. There's an enzyme that we talked about called nitric oxide synthase, and this enzyme converts arginine into nitric oxide.

  What leads to a loss of function of this enzyme is really sugar. Sugar binds to it and sugar is sticky, and it sticks to this enzyme and makes it to where it can't do its job.

  Anything that leads to an elevation in blood sugar and an elevation in insulin is gonna completely inhibit nitric oxide production. And then, you know, it's the

  Michelle: that's why diabetics.

  Dr. Nathan: No, that's right. That's why diabetics have poor healing wounds. Diabetic macular degeneration, retinopathy peripheral neuropathy 'cause they're not getting adequate blood supply to the nerves, to the eyes, to the wound.

  And the, you can't, you can't heal the body without adequate circulation and, and blood flow.

  So, yeah, being a diabetic you know, then the common risk factors. Smoking, sedentary lifestyle some drug therapy, for instance, getting your cholesterol too low, cholesterol lowering medications, proton pump inhibitors, and acids completely shut down the body's ability to produce nitric [00:13:00] oxide.

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Dr. Nathan: so those are the ones that affect the enzyme, but then. We also discovered that, that there's bacteria that live in and on our body that produce nitric oxide. And so anything that we're doing to disrupt the bacteria.

  What is that? Well, it's fluoride. Fluoride in drinking water, fluoride in our toothpaste that's killing the entire oral microbiome.

  It's anything that's, that's labeled antiseptic, antiseptic mouthwash. You know, Listerine runs the commercials that they kill 99.99% of the bacteria in your mouth.

  They're actually proud of that. They advertise that.

  We know that, that doing that killing the sterilizing, the mouth, makes people sick and chronic disease.

  And yet you see the advertising running. They're proud of it because they're making people sick. And so we and others have published that if you use mouthwash, it kills the bacteria, decreases nitric oxide production, and your blood pressure goes up. And high blood pressure is the number one driver of the number one killer of men and women worldwide.

  En Listerine is leading the charge on killing people.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Dr. Nathan: they're driving the number one driver of the number one [00:14:00] killer of men and women worldwide. So we have to get rid of fluoride in our toothpaste. We gotta get rid of fluoride in the drinking water. We gotta stop using anything that's antiseptic, antiseptic mouthwash, and you gotta get off anac acids.

  So now, and, and you gotta stop eating sugar, anything that causes an increase in blood sugar. Now, if you just address those four things, now you've released the breaks on the body's ability to make nitric oxide. And now if you exercise, if you do deep breathing. If you get balanced diet in moderation, 18 hour fast, good protein, good quality fats, less carbs, no sugar, then the body's optimized to produce its own nitric oxide.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then are you, so typically you would say that it's best to make it yourself first of all, but then you had mentioned that there are certain, I guess, capsules or supplements or tablets that do give off this gas.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, so the, the goal of medicine should be to give the body what it needs removed from the body, what it doesn't need, and let [00:15:00] the body do its job, right. That's what I've tried to do as a biochemist and physiologist, is understand the mechanism of disease to the extent that we can fix it. Yeah. The best approach is to remove from the body.

  But you know, there's some people that have genetic SNPs or what we call single nucleotide polymorphisms. They don't have a functional copy of certain enzymes, so then you have to supplement or you have to intervene therapeutic. And so you can have snips in your nitric oxide synthase gene. You can have snips in the M-T-H-F-R, which, you know, 45

  Of Americans have.

  And then now you're compromised in the ability to make nitric oxide. So in those patients, you have to have some outside help. And that's where, you know, my product, technology comes in. Because again, if your body can't make it, we have to give it to you. We have to make it for you.

  So you know, you, you can't find that in a capsule.

  Nitric oxides a gas, you can't get it from a false swallowing, a capsule. So you have to make the gas. And I've made a

  Michelle: why did they sell them? Trust me. Crazy.

  Dr. Nathan: well [00:16:00] because there's a

  Michelle: see them a

  Dr. Nathan: There's a huge market for that. And these companies are for-profit companies and they're trying to convince the consumers that there's a nitric oxide benefit.

  But you have to understand, these companies are run by executives. Marketing people, former marketing executives who don't have any idea about the science of nitric oxide. So just like most people out there, you see these commercials on tv. Hey, take this beats product because it produces nitric oxide. And I've tested every single one of these beat products.

  They don't provide any nitric oxide because it's not the beets, it's not the beet root, it's not the beet root powder. There's a, there's a molecule in there that has to be present, that has to, then you have to have the right oral bacteria. You have to have stomach acid production. Assuming everything is in place and intact, there's a certain amount of of nitrate in that beep pedal that has to be present because this is an inherent, inefficient system.

  So number one, most of the bead products out there don't contain any detectable nitrate in 'em, so they're not providing the active [00:17:00] ingredient in the bete. Number two is two outta three Americans use mouthwash. So even if there was nitrate and that beat powdered. 70% of the people wouldn't be able to metabolize it end nitric oxide because they're using mouthwash or because they're using fluoride toothpaste or because they have fluoride in their drinking water.

  And then you have to have stomach acid for this process to work. And there's 200 million prescriptions written for anac acids every year. Two outta three Americans using over the counter anac acid. So even if the beets that you were taking contain sufficient amount of nitrate. 90% of the population would not get a nitric oxide benefit for it because they don't have the right bacteria.

  They don't have stomach acid. But again, 95% of the beets that are sold on the market don't contain any detectable nitrate or nitrite. Because here's the deal, these are water soluble vitamins. And if people don't, most consumers don't know how to manufacture a finished product. So you gotta take beets out of the ground.

  You gotta create this, what's called a high bricks concentrated. Then you gotta dry it to make a beet powder. And they [00:18:00] put this in high pressure, high temperature. And all the water soluble nutrients come out. So all you're left with is a dead beet. It's a dead beet powder. It does nothing. It provides absolutely no good.

  The only thing it does is it turn your pee and your poop pink and red and causes a lot of anxiety. So beets are not nitric oxide, and that's, that's one of my biggest sources of frustration because you turn on your TV or turn on the radio and you see these companies advertising beats and it's fraudulent.

  It's deceptive

  Michelle: I'm seeing it on my, you know, some of the products or my you know, dispensary.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah.

  Michelle: of that information

  Dr. Nathan: Well, here's the problem. I mean, look, I'm, I'm for capitalism and, and for pro, but you have to be, we have to maintain the integrity of the field and maintain the integrity

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Dr. Nathan: 'cause people, and you as a practitioner who recommend this and want and understand the science to the extent that you're trying to increase blood flow to the uterus so you can improve IVF from prove natural conception, but.

  People will come back and go, well look, nitric oxide doesn't work because I've [00:19:00] been taking this beat product. It didn't improve my blood pressure. It didn't make an effect positive effect on me. So nitric oxide doesn't work, and that's a gross misinterpretation because nitric oxide always works. What didn't work is that company, what didn't work was that product that they were selling you.

  'cause that product didn't produce nitric oxide

  Michelle: Right.

  Dr. Nathan: body WA wasn't able to utilize the components in that to make nitric oxide naturally. So that product failed you, that company failed you, and it could kill the entire field. And that's why I'm so passionate and adamant about calling these companies out.

  And you know, many of these companies have sued me because I reveal and tell the truth about their products and their si, their lack of science, and they don't like it. But we have to tell the truth.

  Michelle: Yeah, I agree. And I appreciate that because it's information that I was given. As a practitioner and I'd rather know the science and really understand and kind of pick the brains of people like you to really know how it works. And as far [00:20:00] as testing this, are there ways people can test it? I know they have test strips, saliva strips.

  Do those work?

  Dr. Nathan: I'm the ones who developed that nitric oxide salivary test strip back in 2010.

  Michelle: Okay.

  Dr. Nathan: And so the idea was to answer the question that you posed is how do I know if I'm deficient in nitric oxide? And because nitric oxide is a gas and gone in less than a second. But also because I, I was the one who mapped out that this fingerprint of immunobiology, when it's produced, where does it go?

  What does it become?

  I, I developed a salivary test strip with the intention of this using salivary nitrite as a proxy for, for nitric oxide production. And so if you know what you're doing, they can be useful. But these are not nitric oxide test strips, by the way. They're not detecting nitric oxide.

  What we found over time was there's really no false pos, false negatives. So if you, if you apply your saliva to that test strip and it doesn't turn pink, then that tells us that your saliva's deficient in a molecule called [00:21:00] nitrite. But if you, if you light it up, then it tells your saliva has nitrite. Now what's the source of that nitrite in the saliva?

  It could be from in o production. It could be from you're eating a lot of green leafy vegetables and you have the right bacteria. Or it could be. You have an active oral infection that's completely independent and, and basically con contradictory to systemic nitric oxide production. This is why I abandoned those test trips back probably in 20 14, 20 15, because they were giving too many false positives.

  You'd have people show up with high blood pressure, erectile dysfunction, diabetes, and they would like that test trip up, and it's not that they're replete in nitric oxide, it's they have an active oral infection.

  So we would send them to the dentist and sure enough they'd have an asymptomatic infection that we picked up only through the saliva test strip.

  So I abandoned those and I abandoned the patents on them at the University of Texas. So once you abandon the patent on something, now you have all these companies out there selling these test strips that I developed, but [00:22:00] abandoned and trying to convince you it's a nitric oxide test strip. So, you know, I don't, I don't measure, I don't test because we rely on symptoms, but I give nitric, there's only two people in the world who need nitric oxide.

  There's people who are sick and wanna get well, and there's people who are well and don't wanna get sick.

  All in one of those two categories, you should take a daily nitric oxide because the older we get

  Michelle: so everybody pretty much.

  Dr. Nathan: everybody, so if, if, if everybody needs it, just like everybody needs to drink water and, and breathe air, then what do we test?

  Do we test that we, I mean you can during COVID for pulse oximeter and you can test levels of dehydration, but we know it's just good practice

  Michelle: Right. So it's something that everybody can really benefit from.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, for sure.

  Michelle: And, and is there any downside to taking it too much or is there any anything that people need to consider?

  Dr. Nathan: Well, yeah, dose dictates poison. Obviously you can drink too much water and die from hypotonic lysis of cells. But so what we try to do, and this is, this is very important and very different than any other company in [00:23:00] any of the product out there is what I try to do is understand how much nitric IDE does the human body make in 24 hours.

  Then try to understand through diet, lifestyle, drug therapy how much is a normal or an average human making in that 24 hours? And then let's supplement the difference, right? So we know that, let's use vitamin D for an example. We know optimal levels of blood. Vitamin D is 80. If we do blood draws and it's 30, we treat to get it to 80.

  So we're supplementing the delta or what's missing? That's easy for vitamin D because it's stable in blood and we can measure and, and treat the number. Nitric oxide is not so easy. So what I had to do was create a summation of how much nitric oxide is made through the enzyme, how much nitric oxide could be oly made through the diet, assuming oral bacteria, assuming stomach acid production.

  And then we, we take the food, we take normal dietary patterns, we look at endothelial dysfunction in a wide variety of patients. We say, okay, the average American, this is how much optimal the average American's making this. So I need to supplement this. And that's what my logic does. It [00:24:00] supplements the delta.

  So what we're finding is because of the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of this delivery, if you take one loss in every 12 hours, that gives you a 24 hour coverage. But that's for someone who needs, who's kind of a supplemental dose, right? But someone who's healthy. But that's much different than somebody with Alzheimer's, with cardiovascular disease, with erectile dysfunction.

  So then the, the metabolic demands and the the needs for them are much, maybe much higher. Then what I need to kind of just be prophylactic and and proactive, but based on the published clinical data, we know that one lozenge every four hours is completely safe. But if

  Michelle: And that's how you, that's how it gets administered.

  Dr. Nathan: right through a lozenge, it dissolves over five to six minutes, and as it's dissolving, it's releasing nitric oxide gas.

  Michelle: So, what did you say? One lozenge every how

  Dr. Nathan: every four hours, the only safety data that we have, that we have published. A 15-year-old kid taking one lozenge every four hours for [00:25:00] management of his resistant hypertension. And we, we measured all signs of, of safety and toxicity. And in that particular patient population, there was no safety issue. So I, there's probably, we could, we could increase that, but I'm just tell to tear on the side of caution what's published in the medical literature is

  Michelle: So that would be the safe amount that,

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah.

  But that's an

  Michelle: unless they need.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. That's an extreme case of a kid with a very rare genetic disorder. Most people you know can get away with one lozenge every, you know, six, eight, maybe 10 or 12 hours. But you dose, you dose based on demand and the underlying conditions or deficiencies.

  Michelle: Got it. And what would happen if you had too much? What are the symptoms?

  Dr. Nathan: There's only two signs of toxicity. Number one, you would lose an un. You, you would have an unsafe drop in blood pressure 'cause understand nitric oxide dilates the blood vessels. If you take too much, it's gonna dilate all the blood vessels. You're gonna use lose profusion pressure, you may get syncope or lightheaded because you can't perfuse the brain and you may pass out.[00:26:00]

  And then number two is a condition called med hemoglobinemia. So again, too much will oxidize the heme iron of hemoglobin and reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of the red cells. You'll get cyanosis, you'll get blue around the lips. But that's, that's you'll, you'll have an unsafe drop in blood pressure long before you start to develop any clinical met hemoglobin levels.

  But those, those are the only two signs of toxicity, unsafe drop in blood pressure, and, and met formation.

  Michelle: Got it. And so the way your company administers it, you said, is a lozenge. You just let it dissolve in the mouth every six hours on average for just somebody who wants to kind of get ahead of the game and just supple.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, that's right. So we, it's again, we, it's a gas, we're producing a gas, and my claim to fame has been, I've made a solid dose form of nitric oxide gas. People said it couldn't be done. The only way they've administered nitric oxide historically is in an inpatient setting. They hook you up to a nitric [00:27:00] oxide gas cylinder and administer it through a nasal canula.

  They're delivering the actual gas. So my, my challenge was how do we deliver this in an outpatient setting for people who are not admitted to the hospital in critical care? And how do we do this prophylactically? So to create a delivery system that actually delivered this guest. So again, if your body can make it, we had to develop this, it's called an orally disintegrating tablet and it with a very specific dissolution rate that releases a certain amount of nitric oxide over a very finite period of time.

  And the purpose of purpose of that is to recapitulate what the body would normally produce. So that's number one. Then number two, I wanted to improve the body's ability to naturally make it. So how do we, how do we address the root cause? We know how to now re couple the, the nitric oxide synthase and improve the function in the lining of the blood vessels.

  So now we're, we're seeing about a 20% improvement in natural production of nitric oxide within 20 minutes of taking a single lozenge. And then also 'cause it resides in the mouth, it's completely [00:28:00] changing the oral microbiome. It's killing the pathogenic bacteria. It's giving the, the good non-pathogenic commensal bacteria an environment in which they can grow and repopulate.

  And outcompete the bad guys. So if your body can't make nitric oxide, we're doing it for you, but we're fixing the reason your body's lost the ability to make it, and it's, it's remarkable technology.

  Michelle: And what are you had mentioned some of the benefits, but can you give me as much, have a list of benefits

  Dr. Nathan: Well, I'll tell you what's published. I mean, we do clinical studies on this technology, but if you have high blood pressure or an elevation of blood pressure, it'll, it'll normalize your blood pressure. It'll improve glucose Tate. So it'll, it'll bring down fasting glucose levels that improve insulin signaling,

  Improve exercise performance, improve sexual performance, improve executive function, improve cognition increase stem cells in circulation.

  We've reversed kidney disease within five days. We've reversed heart disease within five months.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Dr. Nathan: So that's, that's a short list.[00:29:00]

  Michelle: That's incredible. And it works also for things like Alzheimer's, things that are because I know that there's a lot of people that say you can't really reverse it. What are your findings? Just on, on certain, 'cause you were just

  Dr. Nathan: We're doing. Yeah, we're develop. So we have a drug discovery group. Brian Therapeutics my company. We're developing drug therapy specifically for Alzheimer's, and I'm absolutely convinced with a hundred percent certainty that nitric oxide will completely prevent your reverse and treat Alzheimer's disease.

  Michelle: Wow,

  Dr. Nathan: 'cause it addresses the root cause. Let's think about what Alzheimer's is. It's a vascular, metabolic disease, right? So if you don't have adequate blood flow to the brain, then you're not gonna deliver oxygen. The cells aren't gonna function. You have insulin resistance. In fact, Alzheimer's has been called diabetes Type three.

  If you can't get glucose into the cell, the mitochondria can't produce energy and the proteins don't know what to do. They misfold and they show up as amyloid plaque and TALs. So mild cognitive impairment, vascular dementia, and Alzheimer's is, is a deficiency [00:30:00] or symptoms, a progressive symptom of nitric oxide deficiency?

  Because nitric oxide is what dilates the blood vessels perfuse the brain. We publish 2 20 11 that nitric oxide is required for insulin signaling and glucose tate. So if you can't make nitric oxide, you can't dilate the blood vessels. You don't perfuse the brain. You don't get glucose into the cell. You have mitochondrial dysfunction, you get protein misfolding, and you call that amyloid plaque and tal tangles.

  So if what we do now is if we, if we take these patients early enough and we start giving them nitric oxide through drug therapy, we're dilating the blood vessels, we're improving blood flow to the brain. We've demonstrated this through SPECT scans and functional MRIs. We're improving glucose Sub Tate.

  We're more efficiently delivering oxygen. We're improving mitochondrial function. And when you do that, the neurons work. The mitochondria produce energy, proteins do their job. They don't misfold. There's no tangles and there's no amyloid plaque. And their memory improves, their cognition improves. And we've demonstrated this.

  Now we're going through the FDA and [00:31:00] developing a FDA approved clinical trial to demonstrate that we, this will actually work in these early Alzheimer's patients. So this, you know, we hope to start that study maybe the end of the year, first of next year. But the data are very, very impressive. It makes sense because we understand the mechanism of Alzheimer's development, progression and disease.

  And the reason that people think that Alzheimer's isn't curable or treatable is because they've gone after the wrong target. All Alzheimer's drugs have failed, and they failed because they're targeting the tangles and the amyloid plaque making monoclonal antibodies against those. The amyloid plaque and the tal tangos do not cause the disease.

  They're the consequence of the disease. So of course these drugs look, these

  Michelle: Isn't that kind of similar to cholesterol?

  Dr. Nathan: say again.

  Michelle: Similar to cholesterol? It's not. It comes for a reason.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, no, look, treated treating cholesterol for heart disease. I mean, all you have to do is look at the numbers. Still the number one killer of men and women worldwide and [00:32:00] cholesterol lowering medication is causing a rampant of disease from diabetes to cancers to myalgia. So, yeah, that's the worst thing I could imagine was getting a cholesterol below 200.

  Michelle: Wow. Yeah, it's fascinating 'cause of course, especially with re reproductive health, it really does impact it because it's the backbone of so many hormones and. I also think about, you know, the whole idea of how the glu, the glucose intake and like insulin resistance in cases of PCOS. So I imagine, I don't know if you have any data on that.

  That would be really fascinating to hear.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, no, for sure. You know, we, we see a lot of, and, and work with a lot of endocrinologists, OBGYNs, who treat a lot of PCOS women. But look, it's, it's a multifactorial disease. But at the end of the day, they, they suffer from the same thing. Insulin resistance, poor circulation, poor blood flow, poor cellular turnover, and so you can trace that back to a loss of nitric oxide production.

  There, there are other contributing. Factors to that, but [00:33:00] certainly you can improve insulin signaling. And then the other thing is, you know, if you, and you mentioned it, if you cholesterol, if you don't have enough cholesterol, you can't make estrogen and testosterone. But really for the viability of a cell, whether it's an ovum or a sperm cell, you have to have a, a good cell membrane that maintains a cellular potential.

  And these phospho, phospholipid bilayers are embedded with cholesterol 'cause it acts as an insulator to maintain that electrical potential or separation. And if you don't have a good cell membrane with a lot of good cholesterol in there, then you lose that electrical potential and the cell becomes dysfunctional.

  Michelle: Right. This is so fascinating. So have you had any clinical trials or studies on reproductive dysfunction besides Ed you'd mentioned, which is important because a lot of. Couples that are trying to conceive, sometimes the man is experiencing that, so that can obviously throw wrench into the whole plan of trying to [00:34:00] conceive.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. Not, not outside of erectile dysfunction. I mean, that's obviously the, the obvious indication because it's, it's, it's, it's a vascular problem. Typically in men, if you can't produce nitric oxide, you can't dilate the blood vessels so men don't get inor. And the same thing with women, right? We have to have clitoral erections and increase in, in clitoral pressure, in labial pressure, in order for women to have an orgasm.

  And if they can't make nitric oxide, they. Can increase blood flow and increase volume and increase pressure. But I will tell you a story probably 20, 25 years ago when I was, I think a student at LSU and we were doing mouse studies and I realized early on I wasn't very good at sexing mouse determining if a mouse was male or female and so would've to sex them and then put them in separate cages.

  But obviously I put a male in a female cage and we were doing experiments, a nitric oxide experiment, we had a placebo, and we had, you know, a solution. If they would improve nitric oxide production or availability in this, these mice. And what we found was that [00:35:00] in the, in the mi in the cage of mice where I put the male that was getting the, the en enhanced nitric oxide, when these females had litters, they had like 12 to 15, 16 pups per litter.

  And this was consistent in the placebo. They were only getting, you know, eight, 10, maybe 11 pups. And so the, the vets would come to me and they'd go, what the hell is going on here? We've never seen this size of litters in these mice. And then I realized, well, how, then they go, well, how, why are they having babies?

  If they're all female? Then they sex them and realized I'd put a male I'd placed a male in the female cases. And so it was an interesting observation. So then we did a little follow up experiments and found that it's, it's improving sperm motility and

  The viability of the egg. Now, again, these are in healthy mice where we control the light environment, we control the food and everything they're doing.

  And that's much different than humans that have, you know, different genetics different lifestyle, different diet, different you know, drug therapy. A lot of things going on that we [00:36:00] cannot control. But I think now even in the published literature, you'll find that nitric oxide is gonna increase sperm motility, which is extremely important.

  Because now men today, sperm motility is a huge problem and I think part of the problem for, you know, the infertility and then, you know, you got the other side of the coin where, you know, how viable is the egg and do they have normal ovulation cycles and is it it proceeding down the fallopian tubes And is the uterine lining sufficient for embedding once it's fertilized to support the normal growth and replication of that cell?

  But there's so many things that are required to them. That's, it's really the miracle of, of conception. And childbirth. But again, if you're, if you don't have good blood flow to the uterine lining or the placenta to, to, to

  Michelle: Or the ovaries.

  Dr. Nathan: in the ovaries, then you're never gonna conceive. But it's, it's all about circulation, oxygen delivery, mitochondrial function.

  Michelle: That's fascinating. Are you thinking about maybe in the future looking in the reproductive [00:37:00] area?

  Dr. Nathan: You know, probably eventually, you know, we have a kind of a, a list of priorities. Number one is we've got our, our heart disease drug. We're, we're going into clinical trials this year through the FDA. Alzheimer's is obviously a very important topic and high on our priority. And then we're also making a topical drug for diabetic ulcers and non-healing wounds.

  So th those are really the top three because. You know, 65,000 Americans die in nursing homes every year from wounds that get infected and they get septic and die. And to me that's completely unacceptable because nitric oxide will heal every non-healing wound. We haven't seen a wound that we haven't been able to heal.

  Yeah.

  Michelle: Really fascinating. This, this work is so fascinating. I could definitely pick your brain for hours. I mean, it is just incredible to know, like, and I, and I always believe this, like there's always a solution out there. It just hasn't been discovered yet, but yet it's something so natural that the body produces, and I find this really remarkable.

  And so for people listening to this that are really [00:38:00] curious s to what kind of product you have or created, how can they find more information?

  Dr. Nathan: Well, number one, I, I'm less interested in selling a product and I'm more interested about providing education, but I, I encourage people to read my latest book called The Secret of Nitric Oxide, bring The Science to Life. 'cause it's, it's really. You know, it's informative and it's, it's one of these things that people need to know about this because they're things that they're doing that may be inhibiting the natural production of nitric oxide.

  And, and simply making some very simple cost saving lifestyle changes can have a dramatic impact on their life. So that's number one. For those interested in product technology, it's n one oh one.com. It's the letter n number one, letter o number one.com. So NON 1 0 1 dot com. Yeah, we make, we make a, the lozenge, we make a fermented beet powder because, you know, I, I was so frustrated with people you know, being deceived through these advertising, that if they, if they wanted beets in a beat, the source of nitric oxide, then I felt like I had a [00:39:00] responsibility and obligation.

  To give them a beat product that actually works, and that's called no beats or No beats. We make an entire skincare line of product because once I've figured out that we could heal wounds to topical nitric oxide, I thought, well, you know, the skin is an organ just like the sex organs, the heart and the brain, and we need blood flow to the skin.

  So I make a topical nitric oxide for fine lines and wrinkles, and then, you know, understanding the harmful antiseptic effects of fluoride and fluoride based toothpaste. I had to develop my own nitric oxide friendly toothpaste. It's hydroxyapatite based, so it remineralize the teeth, but it supports the microbiome. And so we're now, we're developing a, a nitric oxide friendly mouth rinse for people who want to use a mouthwash. Let's not, you know, sterilize their mouth, let's support the microbiome instead of killing it like the b Listerine of the world. And this is having a remarkable effect on, on public health.

  You know, we're finding people that have been on prescription medication for 30 or 40 years for their blood pressure. They switch to our toothpaste and start taking our lozenge and their blood pressure becomes normal, and now for the first time in 30 years, they don't get [00:40:00] prescription medication.

  Michelle: Incredible. I'm thinking about so many people in my family that I can help with this and, you know, on a, a lot of it is preventative. You know, my mom, thank God she has a great brain, but I want her to have that, you know, and continue that for a long time. So it's definitely something that I'm thinking about myself plus my patients.

  So it's also you know, for me, I am interested in looking into the product because I want it from. You know, somebody who really understands the whole process and how it can translate. And it sounds like you've done some clinical trials on the product itself.

  Dr. Nathan: For sure. Look, we go through the same rigor as we do for drug therapy because we have to, number one, like I said, we have to maintain the integrity of the science. And, you know, I had to step away from academia to make sure that, because here's what's happens in, in academic institutions, you license the technology to companies and they run with it, and then they do with it what they will.

  Because what we've done is so disruptive. You know, you can put your [00:41:00] technology in the wrong hands of people that really don't have your best interest or the interest of the field in mind. So I had to step away from academia to make sure that this technology saw the light of day because it's so disruptive.

  There are a lot of companies out there who would like to shed this technology and never let it see the light of day. So because we're focused only on the science and advancing the science and putting to market products that actually deliver on nitric oxide, and so I am less interested in, in developing products that are profitable than I am on delivering products that actually work.

  Obviously we're a for-profit company and we have to make money, but you know, I'm, I will never desert The science for profitability, which all companies out there do. I've seen it, I've been involved with 'em, and, you know, they, they become money hungry, envy or greedy and it, it doesn't do the field any good.

  So that, that's my mission, is to continue to put products on the market that deliver on nitric oxide and eventually all these other pretend to be nitric oxide companies will go [00:42:00] away. 'cause. When pe when people don't feel the effects or people they don't provide benefit, then people stop buying them.

  Michelle: Yeah, so interesting. Well thank you so much Dr. Brian. This was a great conversation. I think that a lot of people will be very interested in learning more about this and I guess they can find your book on Amazon. I have the link to. Your information, all your links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find them.

  But thank you so much. I learned a lot.

  Dr. Nathan: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I would encourage people to subscribe to my YouTube channels, Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Nitric said we'll cover, you know, topics outside fertility and cardiovascular, so it's such an educational side. And then, you know, I'm on social media, Instagram, Dr. Nathan S. Bryan, LinkedIn.

  So thanks so much for having this conversation and yeah, I look forward to continuing on with you.

  Michelle: yeah, this is great. Thank you so much. Awesome.

Ep 375 The Untold Science Behind Your Most Creative (and Fertile) Days

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle explores the powerful connection between creativity and fertility, revealing the science behind why women often feel more inspired during their fertile window. Drawing from a 2022 study published in Frontiers in Psychology, she breaks down research showing that originality peaks during ovulation and explains how fertility hormones influence creativity, brain chemistry, and emotional openness.

Michelle also asks a deeper question: could creativity itself support fertility? Blending neuroscience, nervous system regulation, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and hormonal health, she explains how creative flow can reduce stress, activate the parasympathetic nervous system, and support reproductive function. This episode offers a fresh, holistic perspective for anyone trying to conceive, recovering from burnout, or seeking to reconnect with their natural life force through creativity and flow.

Key Takeaways: 

• Creativity naturally peaks during ovulation, especially in originality and novelty

• Creative states calm the nervous system and reduce fertility-disrupting stress hormones

• From a TCM perspective, creativity and fertility are governed by the same principle: flow

• Engaging in creativity can help regulate hormones, emotions, and reproductive energy

• Fertility is not just biological, it is energetic, emotional, and expressive
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 375 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz. If you've been following my podcast, you know that I love exploring the intersection between the tangible and the invisible, the biology we can measure, and the subtle energies we can feel.

  Today we're diving into a question that bridges both worlds. If women are naturally more creative during their fertile window, could entering a creative state actually help support fertility? A 2022 study published in Frontiers in Psychology, caught my. Because it scientifically confirmed something. Many of us sensed intuitively that creativity peaks during the fertile phase of the menstrual cycle.

  But as I read it, another question started forming in my mind. If fertility influences creativity, could the reverse also be true? Could engaging in our creativity through art, music, writing, movement, or simple self-expression. Physiologically and energetically [00:01:00] nurture our fertility. Today, we'll unpack the possibility.

  We'll look at what the science says, how traditional Chinese medicine explains this connection and how creativity impacts the hormones and the nervous system. And I'll guide you through ways to activate your own creative fertile flow. So whether you're trying to conceive. Recovering from burnout or simply wanting to reconnect with your life force.

  This episode will invite you to see fertility and creativity in a completely new light. So be sure to stay tuned.

  Speaker 2: So let's begin with a research that sparked up this whole conversation, a within subject study published in Frontiers in Psychology titled [00:02:00] Enhanced Originality of Ideas in Women. During Ovulation, they recruited women with natural menstrual cycles, meaning they weren't on hormonal birth control and tested them three times across the month during menstruation, during ovulation, around the fertile window and during the late luteal phase.

  Which is the premenstrual window. Each time participants were asked to complete a creative test, for example, they had to think of as many uses as possible for a paperclip. It sounds simple, but it measures three key dimensions of creativity, fluency, which is how many ideas you can generate flexibility, how many categories your ideas can fall into, and originality, how novel or unexpected those ideas are.

  When the data were analyzed, one result stood out. Originality peaked during ovulation. In other words, women were not necessarily generating more ideas, but the quality of their ideas, their novelty and [00:03:00] uniqueness were significantly higher. The researchers also measured mood, energy, and hormonal indicators.

  While women did report feeling more positive and energized mid cycle, those factors didn't fully explain the creative spike. So what's happening here? One hypothesis grounded in evolutionary psychology is that the creativity may serve as a subtle biological signal. A fertility and vitality, just like birds sing or display colors.

  Humans might express reproductive health through creative behavior. But when I read that, I thought, wait, creativity isn't just a display, it's a state. It changes our hormones, our brain chemistry, and our energy. Flow. So if the fertility window boosts creativity, maybe the act of being creative can also awaken the body's fertile potential, and that's where the conversation gets really exciting when you enter a creative state, whether you're sketching, writing, cooking, or even daydreaming, [00:04:00] your brain shifts from a beta state, which is more analytical, linear thinking, to a more alpha theta state.

  So Alpha theta brainwaves are associated with relaxation, imagination, and flow. They activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the same branch responsible for rest, digestion, and reproduction in this state. Cortisol. Your stress hormone decreases dopamine and endorphins. Increase blood flow redistributes from the prefrontal cortex, the overthinking brain to the deeper emotional and sensory regions.

  From a fertility standpoint, this is huge. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline can suppress the release of gonadotropin releasing hormone. Which controls ovulation. Chronic stress can also delay menstruation and reduce implantation rates. When we enter a state of flow through creativity, meditation, or acupuncture, we literally send a biochemical signal of safety to [00:05:00] the body.

  The signal says it's okay to create. It's safe to reproduce. We're not in danger. In this way, creativity can act as a biological bridge. Coming the very systems that often get dysregulated on the fertility journey. In traditional Chinese medicine, creativity and fertility are governed by the same principle, which is flow.

  So QI is the life force energy that circulates through the meridians of the body. When chi flows freely, every organ receives nourishment. When it stagnates symptoms can appear. The liver organ is responsible for this smooth flow of qi and it plays a central role here. It regulates both emotional expression and also supports reproductive function.

  In TCM. This isn't. Just coincidence, its correlation when the creative current is blocked emotionally. The reproductive current often mirrors that stagnation physically. On the other hand, when we free our expression [00:06:00] through journaling, through singing, dancing, painting, liver chi begins to move the uterus, receives more blood hormones, balance naturally.

  Creativity then becomes an energetic. Treatment in a form of medicine that restores that rhythm. Ayurveda also echoes this through the concept of Shakti, which is the feminine creative power that moves through all of life. When Shakti is suppressed, vitality declines. When it flows, we feel radiant, fertile, and alive.

  So let's connect the dots. The study mentioned before shows that fertility heightens creativity. Neuroscience shows that creativity activates parasympathetic balance. TCM shows that emotional and energetic flow nurtures reproductive function put together a form of feedback loop, which is what I call the creativity fertility loop.

  So here's how it works. Fertility hormones rise, increase openness, sociability, and idea [00:07:00] generation creativity expression uses those hormones constructively stimulating pleasure pathways and parasympathetic. Com, that Com reduces stress and improves blood flow enhancing reproductive function. Improved fertility and vitality feed back into a greater creative confidence.

  It's a continuous cycle of giving and receiving The. That same energy that creates art also creates life. Now, how can you use this in your own life? Here are five powerful ways to engage in creativity as a fertility enhancing practice. Number one, track your creative rhythm alongside your cycle. Each evening jot down not only physical symptoms, temperature, discharge, mood.

  But also creative impulses. Notice when ideas flow easily. Many women find their most original thoughts arise mid cycle. Others discover unique rhythms. The goal is awareness, not perfection. Number two, [00:08:00] create during ovulation intentionally. During your fertile window, carve out sacred creative time paint, write.

  Garden dance design, or even rearrange your home. This honors your body's innate desire to express and release energy outward, the same energy that releases an egg. Number three, use creativity as nervous system regulation, turn to creation instead of control. Creativity moves energy without suppression.

  It tells your body. I'm safe to feel and I'm safe to expand. Number four. Make something that represents conception, not literally, but emotionally. A collage of what you're calling in, a poem to your future child, or even cooking a nourishing meal for your body as a ritual. The subconscious mind doesn't differentiate between symbolic and physical creation.

  It registers the same energetic messages, which is I am a creator. Number five, surround yourself with people who inspire [00:09:00] flow. A woman circle in our class, a singing group or even a sound bowl class. Social creativity raises oxytocin and creates bonding. It literally is the connection chemical of both.

  Art and motherhood. Every time you engage with life creatively, you nourish the very hormones and emotional states that optimize conception. So I wanna pause here and invite a reflection. If you've been trying to conceive for a while, this journey can start to feel Clinical temperature charts timed intercourse.

  Appointments, lab results. The creative spark that wants to find you can start to dim. But creativity is the antidote to that stagnant routine. It's how we remember that fertility is not mechanical. It's miraculous. So ask yourself, where am my life? Am I suppressing my creativity? Because the moment you start creating, whether it's a small doodle or a new morning routine, you begin to move that same life force energy that governs fertility.

  And in [00:10:00] that movement healing begins. So I hope this inspired you to create something and you can start small. It doesn't have to be anything too crazy, but just a little something that brings you joy and playfulness, even singing your favorite song. You can download my Free Moon Hacking ebook. Best kept secrets to harmonizing your moon cycle.

  You can find the link in the show notes below. It's filled with tools to help you syn your body with your hormonal rhythms. And if you'd like to explore this concept further, join the Wholesome Fertility Collective, which is a beautiful community of women and coaches learning to harmonize your fertility flow and life force.

  Remember you were born to create. Your body is not broken. It's waiting for safety, expression and flow. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I will see you next time. [00:11:00] [00:12:00]

Ep 374 The Truth About PCOS: Symptoms, Fertility Struggles, and Finding Real Support

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) affects millions of women worldwide, yet it remains one of the most misunderstood and frequently misdiagnosed hormonal conditions. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle is joined by Megan Stewart, Founder and Executive Director of the PCOS Awareness Association, to unpack why PCOS can look so different from person to person and why so many women struggle for years before receiving real answers.

Megan shares her powerful personal journey, from experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old to navigating years of medical dismissal, a PCOS diagnosis at sixteen, and later cervical cancer. Together, Michelle and Megan explore how PCOS impacts fertility, mental health, metabolism, and the nervous system, including insulin resistance, elevated testosterone, anxiety, depression, and cycle irregularity. This conversation also offers hope, highlighting supportive approaches such as acupuncture, lifestyle rhythm, nervous system regulation, and holistic care that can help restore balance and empower women to trust their bodies again.


Key Takeaways: 

• PCOS symptoms and why they vary so widely

• Misdiagnosis and common PCOS myths

• Hormones, insulin resistance, and fertility challenges

• The overlooked mental health impact of PCOS

• Acupuncture, holistic care, and nervous system support

• Building community, advocacy, and real-world resources
  

Connect with Megan Stewart:

Visit their website
Follow them on Instagram for more updates

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 3 74 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're talking about a condition that so many women are quietly struggling with often for years before they ever get real answers, which is PCOS. My guest is Megan Stewart, the founder and executive director of PCOS Awareness Association, one of the leading organizations dedicated to PCOS education, advocacy, and support.

  Megan's work is deeply personal. She started experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old, pelvic pain, missing cycles, weight gain, hair loss, unwanted hair growth. Mood changes and she and her mom were sent from provider to provider, dismissed, and even told that it was in her head. It wasn't until she was 16 that she finally got the PCOS diagnosis, and then [00:01:00] incredibly, she was also diagnosed with cervical cancer.

  But what happened next is why this episode is so powerful. Years later, after an ER visit where she learned her ovarian cysts were rupturing and realized how little support and practical guidance existed, Megan decided she could not be the only one going through this. She began making teal PCOS awareness, bracelets by hand sharing symptoms and resources.

  One conversation at a time. That small act of advocacy exploded into a worldwide movement and eventually became the PCOS Awareness Association. Today, she and her volunteer team are creating real resources for real symptoms, including mental health support, and they host PCOS con. Bringing community education and conversations, people have been afraid to say aloud into a safe space.

  In this conversation, we break [00:02:00] down why PCOS can be so confusing and so commonly misdiagnosed. Why the name itself can be misleading, and how PCOS can look completely different from person to person. We talk about the hormone and metabolic pieces, including insulin resistance and testosterone patterns.

  The mental health side that doesn't get enough attention and why it can impact fertility so profoundly. And we also talk about hope because there are supportive options. We explore the role of holistic care, including acupuncture. Lifestyle rhythm and nervous system support, and how creating safety in the body can be a game changer for cycle regulation and overall wellbeing.

  So if you've ever felt dismissed, confused, or like your body was doing something, no one can explain. This episode is for you.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. [00:03:00] I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Megan.

  Megan: Hi. Thank you for having me.

  Michelle: Yes. I'm so excited. Um, we just had a little fun chat pre-talk about PCOS and before we get started, 'cause I'm really excited to get to this topic because of course it feels like a mystery. it's a hard. Type of syndrome to really pin down. I think that it could be so confusing for some people.

  People get misdiagnosed often. So, before we do get started, I would love to get your origin story and how this is personal. It's personal, and it's also something that is a passion of yours. So would love to have you share that.

  Megan: Absolutely. So, yes, it's origin story, it's a passion. I am a sufferer of PCOS myself. [00:04:00] So, it really came about now I will try and keep this as, you know, as simple as possible. It really came about because when I was nine, I started showing symptoms of PCOS, and at the time we had no idea what it was.

  And if it wasn't for my mother, I probably, I don't. Like you'll learn. I don't know where I would be today if it wasn't for my mother, because she literally took me from, I just remember, you know, it's time for another appointment, Megan. It's time for another appointment. Let's go figure out what's wrong.

  And some of my symptoms that I was having were. Pelvic pain was the, the huge one. Pelvic pain? no menstrual cycle. Weight gain hair loss on my head, but hair growth on my face. And arms. I just was super moody all the time. To this day, my mother will say, you owe me. And I'm like, what do I owe you for?

  'cause you were just so mean. Oh. Oh, okay. So, yeah, was absolutely just. Confused [00:05:00] on what was going on with my body. I was confused. My mother was confused. So I just remember her taking me from, you know, doctor to doctor to also, you know, homeopathic specialist and just all over the place. Trying to figure out what was going on and she was told of various of things such as this is normal because she's young and, you know, puberty.

  This is just something that she's just going to have to do, deal with. Was also told that I just needed to lose the weight and I would be fine. But the problem was, was like, how, how does she lose the weight? Because she's super active. I am an equestrian. I did basketball, I did volleyball, I did a little soccer here and there.

  You know, I was just super active and nothing was. Keeping the weight off. I was literally like throwing on pounds if I smelled a cookie from a mile away. Right. It was just ridiculous. And then the ultimate one that she was told, that [00:06:00] she just felt completely off about was that she was told by a medical professional that it was in my head and I was.

  Faking the symptoms to get out of, to get out of school and practice and all the things. And she recently actually told me that she put me on a placebo pill just to test that theory, only for it to realize about two weeks later that no, it's not this is not in this pork child's head. This is something is wrong.

  Michelle: yeah.

  Megan: So again, from ages nine to 16, I was just, you know, trying to figure out what was going on with me. And I just remember also feeling that. I was lost because me personally, I was lost because it was like nobody is understanding me. Nobody is, is, is like really telling me what is wrong. And, and on top of that I'm gonna date myself here, but you know, I come from the time of 17 Magazine y magazine.

  Z, all those [00:07:00] different things that were like, oh, this is what you're supposed to look like. You're supposed to be cute and little. And I wasn't. So it was just like, no, I. You know, self my, my self body image was not a good one. So I finally remember, I can't remember exactly, how we ended up at another O-B-G-Y-N, and she immediately looked at me and said, I'm gonna run some tests.

  Those tests came back and she was like, oh, you've never been told you have PCOS. I kind of figured you, you have PCOS. And it was kind of like. No. Like, what, what is this? And you know, polycystic ovarian syndrome was what she said to to us. And she was like, you really nothing you have to worry about until you're ready to have children come back to me when you are trying to get pregnant.

  again, 16, I was like, Ew, I don't want nothing to do with no boys. I'm okay. I'm okay. So, but ultimately, as well. Another diagnosis came along with the [00:08:00] PCOS diagnosis is I was diagnosed at 16 with cervical cancer. So there is there are studies out there that say like there's a correlation between PCOS and cervical cancer along with Rine cancer.

  Ovarian cancer, breast cancer. there are just a lot of studies out there that correlate the, the, the mix of them together. So, of course, you know. She says, you know, come back to me when you're ready to have children. I wasn't thinking about that. And the diagnosis of cervical cancer was immediate on the mind.

  So it didn't come about until maybe about 21, 22 when I didn't have health insurance and I was working at a job. I remember just feeling so sick one day and I remember going into the office and everybody sitting at my desk and everybody looking at me and they're like. What's going on with you? Like you, I'm a black woman, so all the color had drained out of my face.

  I just felt clammy. I felt [00:09:00] like sticky just not well. And I called, called my mom again. Mommy called my mom and was like, Hey, something's up. I need to go. She was like. Meet me at the er, met her at the er and they looked through my, my, my charts and everything and they said, oh, you have PCOS. Yeah, well it kind of looks like we're gonna do some other tests, but we're gonna do an ultrasound and everything.

  Came back with that and it looks like your cysts on your ovaries are rupturing. What, like nobody said anything about, you know, this is what's gonna happen and here's how to handle that. It was literally just come back to me when you're ready to have children. So, Walking out of the er, it was very much, my mom was like, oh no, what's about to happen?

  You, I see it in your face, what's going on? And I said, no, I cannot be the only person that's going through this. I [00:10:00] cannot be the only person that's going through this. And there has to be information and resources out there. I go and you know, at the time I think it was Craigslist was pretty much the only like social media that was out there.

  And Craigslist has this part that, you know, you can talk to people.

  Michelle: You look too young to know this. I'll have to, I have to say,

  Megan: Girl, I'm 40. I'll be 42 this year,

  Michelle: you look a lot younger, just in my eyes, so.

  Megan: I appreciate it. But, but yeah, it was they have like this it's almost like Reddit. You can post like to the message board and you can respond to things in, in Craigslist. I remember going out there and I just searched PCOS. I'm from Seattle, so I searched in the, Craigslist for Seattle and there was maybe four or five people within there that was like, Hey you know, have you heard of this thing called PCOS?

  I have it, and, and I don't know what's going on with me. Does anybody have any advice? So with that. It was like, [00:11:00] okay, I'm not the only one, and people are actually out here looking for things. So what, what's out here? What's giving information? So then it was a Google search of like, what's PCOS?

  At the time there was maybe one, there was one large organization and couple years later there was another large organization out there that had to do with PCOS. But when looking at the information, it was very much just. The medical professionals didn't know. It was very much like, oh, well here's what's out there currently, but we still don't know, like we don't know.

  And then on top

  of the birth control pill.

  Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get me started on that one. But,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: but yes, and it was very much like there was no resources, actual resources out there for PCOS and it was confusing to me. All of the things was just very, very confusing. So, after a couple of years and people, you know, family and friends asking me very close with, you know, my [00:12:00] family.

  And after er visit, of course, everybody's now calling like, Hey, what happened? What's going on? Are you okay? And I was like, okay, well, PCOS, well what's that? Okay. So now I have to devise a way for, to, to share this information with my family and friends. So I came up with this idea of creating, I had found out the official color was teal.

  I started creating like handmade teal bracelets and handing it out to family and friends along with telling them like. PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And then here's like some symptoms. And here's this here that like, I was literally like the resource of like, here, here, here. Take this, here, take this information.

  And now if you wear this, you are now going to be able to tell people who ask you about like, what's, what's the steel bracelet you're wearing That's amazing. You were raising awareness right after like that's.

  know. So, it was around the time that Instagram started and what was it? Wonder [00:13:00] Woman, the movie Wonder Woman was coming out and she had that infamous pose of like, you know, I'm Wonder Woman type thing.

  I had a cousin who actually asked me for like. I think she had ordered maybe 20 of those handmade teal bracelets from me. And then she went on Instagram and did the Wonder Woman pose in those bracelets tagged me and hashtagged PCOS. I could not like. I think I woke up maybe two days later to my phone just being bombarded with messages on Instagram asking me, Hey, I have PCOS too.

  Where do I get a bracelet? I've never seen anything like this. What can I do? I need more information. It was just from all over the world. I had people New Zealand. It, it was just insane to me that people were reaching out and I. Didn't have, like, I was like, oh, what, what do I do now? So I literally started my own little, like assembly line of friends and family of like putting [00:14:00] these bracelets together, getting shipping addresses, mailing them out.

  And at the time I had no idea that shipping to like. India and, and New Zealand and, and Britain and all those places was actually going to cost me more

  Michelle: The than, than the actual, you know, putting the things together. It was insane. But I came up with this idea of like, okay, I'll sell this to you for like $5 and if you send me the $5 and I send you the bracelet, I'm gonna use the $5 to get a 5 0 1 C3.

  Megan: To start PCOS Awareness Association and here we are what the right, like what, 14 years later. And I am so proud of my team and where we started to where we are today and all the different resources and that's the number one thing that we try and do. It's not just about the information. I literally have sat down with the team and we're like, oh, okay.

  A symptom is mental [00:15:00] health, right? It's depression and anxiety. So where can we help in that area? What kind of resources can we provide to help in that area? We've teamed up with Crisis Text Line. You text PCOS to 7 7 4 1 7 4 1, and you now have a resource, for, you know, your mental health with PCOS the hair growth on the face, the hrsm which is hair growth on the face. And some people also have it back, chest, you know, all over their body. The extra hair growth. We've teamed up with Milan, laser hair removal to offer their services. We've, we've just, for every symptom we have tried to provide an actual resource, whether it's, you know, one resource that we've teamed up with, or a slew of resources that we've also teamed up with.

  Um, so. Yeah, I'm pretty excited and I'm pretty I'm proud of the team.

  Michelle: I bet, I mean, that's a, that's a huge undertaking and it's a huge it, it has such a huge impact on so many people. It's a great resource because [00:16:00] I feel like so many, specifically with PCOS, so many people are so confused. There's a lot of misdiagnosed people. with very. Doctors like that are professional and and so it, it could be a very confusing type of syndrome because it looks so different on every person.

  So, to break that down, I'd love to talk about that really like, to describe to people listening who you know, of course this is a fertility podcast, but it really impacts fertility health because it impacts the menstrual cycle. And we talked about this in the pre-chat. I think that I had undiagnosed PCOS, I had my hair fell out.

  Thank god it grew back, but it really fell out to the point where it was really, it scared me.

  It scared my dad and they was like, oh, what's going on? Like, you used to have a full head of hair and, and all of a sudden it started thinning on the top. I had chin hairs. I had like bouts of acne at different [00:17:00] times.

  It, it came and went irregular cycles. So, I mean, looking back. My circadian rhythm was off. That's another thing that since I've been doing this, learning about how it not only impacts your menstrual cycle, it impacts your ability to lose weight. It's very hard to like get it off. But sometimes people could be on the thinner side too, so that's where it could be so confusing.

  And then also, you know, it impacts depression. Like I used to have depression in, my teenage years. And, and when you were talking about how you felt or the moodiness, it's almost like, I mean. It's not your fault, it's like a physical thing that you're going through, and you could be looked at like, why are you like that?

  But that's something that you're, you are just not feeling right in your body, in your mind. So I'd love for you as, as you know, as much as you can kind of compact it. And describe to people what is PCOS and [00:18:00] how it can impact or ref, I guess, express itself in different people.

  Megan: Yeah, absolutely. 100% of everything you said. And yes, this is a fertility podcast and that's. Why I'm here,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: because PCOS is the number one cause of fertility, infertility in women. You know, so normally that's normally how women are diagnosed with PCOS when they are trying to get pregnant and they're having problems.

  You can go to a, you know, your medical professional ob, GYN, endocrinologists. I've even heard of people who are going to like dermatologists. 'cause as you said, the acne portion. I've even heard of mental health therapists that they're not diagnosing, but they're suggesting that. Some, some something's up here, you may wanna see somebody.

  So ultimately, you know, you, you're having troubles getting pregnant and they're running panels and they're realizing like you have PCOS. So some of the symptoms and the crazy thing about [00:19:00] PCOS is because it's a syndrome, is that they are literally finding new. New symptoms all the time. There was one that recently came up, well, not recently, it's been a couple of years now, but it made perfect sense to me because I, at the time was struggling with it.

  And that's tooth decay. I,

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Megan: let me tell you, I am, you know, twice, twice a year dentist brush, you know, all the things, do all the things I need to do to make sure I'm taking care of my, my mouth health. And it's felt like. Within a month. I was like at the dentist like 12 times. It was nuts. They were like, oh, you know, you have, we're gonna have to do a crown.

  We're gonna have to do a root canal. It was

  Michelle: And all of that impacts fertility as well, kind of even on its own.

  Megan: right. Yeah. So it was. Right. So yes, they are definitely finding new symptoms all the time, but some of the symptoms, other symptoms of definitely infertility, [00:20:00] weight gain, hair growth on your face, so let's, let's put it this way instead. PCOS also causes higher testosterone in women that have PCOS.

  So if you're thinking about higher testosterone and you're thinking about men, they're going to get hair growth on face, neck, back, you know, arms, all the things, but then they start losing it on their head. Male pattern

  Michelle: where we want it.

  Megan: Right. Well, exactly. Our crowns, we, we want it there. So, think of it the same way for women with PCOS.

  You are going to get hair growth on the face and neck, chest, back, arms, all the places you don't want it, and then you're gonna lose it on your head. So herm, that's the hair growth is a symptom. Depression, anxiety. I can't even tell you how, like my watch, I have a, what is this? The Garmin watch.

  And I kid you not every day, it's like, oh, stressful period. Stressful period. And I'm like, stop telling me. That's even more stressful. Like [00:21:00] my, my anxiety level can go from zero to a hundred. My poor boyfriend, like, I feel bad for him because I literally, he can tell, I'll, I'll sit there and I'll be quiet and he's like, what's going on?

  What's happening? And I'm like. I wish you couldn't tell this in me, but, but yes. Anxiety is high depression, and I feel like that's also a vicious cycle, right? You get high anxiety, you get depressed, you get depressed, you get high anxiety. You are just going in a vicious circle. The acne. I can't even tell you how many times as an adult, I'm like, where did this patch of acne come from?

  Like, why, why is this even happening? I, I also have a lot of women have cystic acne because of their PCOS. Tooth decay is another one. We have what's called, and, and that also comes with the insulin resistance, right? And that's kind of like where the weight gain comes from as well. And that is the reason why they also give women with PCOS Metformin, which is a diabetic medication.

  [00:22:00] I hate that. I hate it. I'm like, I do not have diabetes.

  Michelle: Tel Works very similar to that, and it's more natural and it also has added benefit of improving equality.

  Megan: absolutely my own acetol. What's another progesterone? They try and give you birth control pills? I've definitely noticed that in the last maybe 20 years. It's like, as soon as you turn 15, 16, here, take these birth control pills, they'll make your life better. No.

  Michelle: I was giving them too. Same.

  Megan: Right. Right. I feel like that's, that's, that's like the norm now.

  What are some other symptoms? So, I do wanna preface that. The name polycystic ovarian syndrome is deceiving. And I have, you know, there is chatter that they are trying to change the name. Because you can have cysts on your ovaries or like me, at any given time, your cyst could be ruptured and not there.

  So,

  Michelle: And it's not really cysts, it's follicles, which could be confusing [00:23:00] 'cause people are gonna think it's a bunch of cysts. But it's actually follicles that are not fully grown. So multiple ones will go and then they'll stop, and then it's just gonna continue. And, but nothing's really, so people go through IVF and they'll have so many eggs retrieved and they're like, oh wow.

  40 eggs. And, and then nothing. Nothing. Nothing turns into an embryo or like very, very few, if any.

  Megan: Right. Absolutely. So it's, I, I like to think or say, or it is that PCOS is an endocrine hormonal disorder, right? It's, it's going to affect you from head to toe, literally from head to toe.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: So, thinking about it that way, your symptoms. Let's say you, you had, you were formally diagnosed with PCOS.

  Your PCOS is going to look very different from my PCOS, and that's why it's such a struggle for medical professionals for us living with PCOS. I did a podcast recently [00:24:00] and the gal had asked me like, what do I want to see like in the future for PCOS? That, that is one of the things I wanna see. I want to see that people are correctly diagnosed, whether it's people being diagnosed and they actually have PCOS or we're also getting the other, the reverse, right?

  We're getting people that are being diagnosed with PCOS and it's not PCOS. So I want to see that correction because that's not helpful. That's not helpful for those that, you know, for anybody in that, that aspect.

  Michelle: No, a hundred percent. And it's yeah, that's one of the biggest things that is so confusing for so many people. And people may not realize, they think, oh, well I have a regular period. I can't possibly have PCOS. And that's another big myth. I mean, there's so many myths connected to this diagnosis.

  Megan: absolutely. 100%. And it's, it's a struggle because PCOS can also look like what's it, [00:25:00] Hashimoto's? Fatty liver diabetes I've heard there's a couple of others that I've heard as well that it can mimic. So yeah, getting that proper diagnosis is going to help in the future, right?

  Like if I get the proper diagnosis, that means now we have, we can have a path going forward.

  Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent. And and have you heard about the circadian rhythm connection with

  Megan: I have, I have. So, I, I myself have not got dived into that. But I have heard it. We had a partner was it last year? I think it was last year during our PCOS con event. That, that, yes, they definitely spoke about that.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty wild because with Chinese medicine, how we, we perceive it, and we were talking about this too, about acupuncture. One of the things about PCOS, I'm just gonna kind of throw it out there 'cause it sounds so like, oh my gosh, like, what do I do? But there are a lot of really amazing things that can be [00:26:00] done.

  For me personally, and you talked about this too, acupuncture was what really shifted for me. Now, I'm assuming I did have it, but looking back, I had two out of three that I know for sure. I didn't do the ultrasound, so I probably did have it. And I had irregular periods for going on 12 years at the time,

  Megan: Yeah.

  Michelle: and acupuncture was the one with.

  Solution that literally shifted everything for me, acupuncture and herbs. And I also started meditating, so I feel like a lot of those things really impacted it. I wanna throw that out there because.

  Megan: Absolutely.

  Michelle: seems it could be very depressing, just like being like, oh my God, what do I do? You know, what can I do?

  But there are things that you can do, and it is actually something that I found. Now, of course, every person's different, so I'm gonna kind of mention that. So not everybody's gonna respond to the same things, the same, but diet, exercise, supplements, acupuncture. There are a lot of things [00:27:00] that can be done.

  That can be very, very supportive. And I know for myself doing the acupuncture, like I, it completely regulated me and I, it was no turning back, like completely, completely regulated me. And I also felt a shift in my emotions and my anxiety and my, you know, I'll have a tendency if I'm really drained and a lot going on. That's probably kind of my default.

  Um, it'll kind of go right there, but I You could learn to manage it.

  Megan: Absolutely, absolutely. As we were kind of chatting before, same it was about 10 years ago, I did, I found a woman's health acupuncturist and I went to her for maybe, maybe six months. And the way that my, I, I have really never had a normal cycle, right? I actually, when I was diagnosed with PCOS, I still hadn't had my first.

  Cycle. So they had put me on progesterone and I had, my very first cycle lasted three months. It [00:28:00] was nuts

  Michelle: no.

  Megan: was heavy every day. It was horrible. And so, after that I still wasn't even, even on birth control pills. They had put me on birth control pills. And even then, I still was not regular. I could go maybe a month, have it two months, nothing a month have it.

  It was just, it was nuts. So, I had cervical cancer again, and after that I was like, I'm al I'm always having like these revelations, right? And it's like, no, I am not doing. Medications anymore. I'm not doing it. Like it's not helping, so I'm gonna try something else. And I went completely natural, found a woman's health acupuncturist.

  I did get you know, she, she mixed herbs and stuff for me as well to drink in hot water and that kind of things. But it was the acupuncture that I could really stick to. And again, I went for about six months and since then. I like, like clockwork. I could tell you exact the exact date when my cycle [00:29:00] is supposed to start.

  And it starts by itself. I came off of birth control pills. It does, it does what it needs to do now.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it amazing? And it I I kind of liken it, like I, I like to compare it to almost and this is kind of like the whole idea of the clock we were talking about, the circadian rhythm. It's a pulse. It's one of our pulses now. We have many different pulses. All of life has pulse.

  Everything kind of goes back and forth. We have waves. That's how the whole universe functions. It has cycles, and so there are some smaller cycles, some larger cycles. The 24 hour cycle is our circadian cycle, so if the hand of the second, the second hand doesn't work, it's gonna impact the hour hand.

  Megan: Okay. Yep,

  Michelle: So it's kind of like everything impacts everything.

  So that's where it really made sense to me that for me personally, my circadian rhythm was off. Not everybody, but like some people, they have that correlation [00:30:00] and mine was completely, completely off. I could not wake up, like it was very hard for me to wake up. I had to for school, but I could sleep till two, three

  Megan: Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, that's me. I could

  Michelle: yeah,

  Megan: day. Anywhere. Anywhere. Like I could probably pull up on this table and just.

  Michelle: Yeah. But now luckily I've shifted that over time. It just kind of forced myself to shift it and one of the ways to shift it. And it takes a little time, especially if you've been like that for a very long time. It took me years to shift it. I still am not like a super morning person like. So I'm just gonna kind of throw that out there. But the sun, the light, light impacts us. So getting that early morning sun anchoring our body, pretty much what it does is it gives our body a message, Hey, it's morning. It's daytime, you should be awake. So getting that sunlight, having your eyes perceive the sun, not look directly, but to get that sunlight wakes up your body.

  [00:31:00] And then similarly, at night, dimming the lights a couple of hours before, kind of like really trying to make your inner house environment similar to outside what's outside, which is darkness. At certain times. So going with that, also eating with a cycle, not like, intermittent fasting where you're like stopping in the, like not having breakfast 'cause that's gonna cause more cortisol.

  But finishing notorious,

  as the sun goes down, like having a couple, a good couple of hours. So fasting at night and going with that rhythm. So this is all kind of like. Based on Ayurvedic principles, Chinese medicine, really honoring the cycles of nature because the cycles of nature will, they're so strong, the force is so strong, it'll kind of bring our bodies back into that regulation.

  So it's kind of a regulatory thing. It's kind of like a rhythm thing too. I mean, there's many other things obviously that impact it, but a big part of it is kind of like our bodies and training with [00:32:00] the rhythm of nature. So it's kind of like, like a train on tracks. It just veered off the tracks. We need to kind of bring it back.

  And so that was kind of what happened with me, and it was as soon as I got the acupuncture and I started to do a couple of other things, it brought me back on track. And then it was kind of like, it just kept repeating. Similar to what you were saying.

  Megan: nice. And I know that you said you do, you do meditation as well. I got a question for you on that

  Michelle: of course.

  Megan: because I, you know, it's hard, it is hard to meditate because you brain is like, go on a 20 million miles per hour. What I found myself when I was getting into meditation and whatnot is a singing bowl.

  you use singing

  Michelle: Oh yeah, so I used that actually in the beginning of every session with my acupuncture. Like every time I get the needles in with my patients. I put I put a bowl. Like I, I sound a bowl and I put it around their bodies so that they can get immersed in the sound. And not only [00:33:00] that, they have a bunch of antennas in their bodies with these like metal, like

  Megan: right. You

  get the little, the little zappy

  Michelle: into their points.

  So, so that vibration really goes directly into those

  Megan: Right. I like it.

  Okay. Okay. I was writing it then because

  Michelle: But it is, yes. You're on to something. The sound really calms your nervous system. And as a matter of fact we have our own sound, which is our voice, and this is why humming activates the vagus nerve, which puts us in a more rest and digest state, which people with PCOS need more of that.

  It helps also with digestion. There's a link with gut health and PCOS and so, so, humming. Mantras, you know, all the things that the ancients knew for thousands of years. They used to hum. They used to m and there's specific seed mantras that you can sound in your, in your, you know, in your voice with your mouth closed sometimes or [00:34:00] humming like so That vibration that you feel impacts your vagus nerve, shifts your nervous system from a survival to a more creative.

  Megan: that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense to me. Now I'm So, so tell me, tell me about the Sound Bowl.

  Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I, I got a big one

  Michelle: That's awesome.

  Megan: and Right. I often feel in my chest the most. And yes, like you're saying that it makes perfect sense about the humming because if I don't use, like, if I'm nowhere near the bowl I will.

  Find a rhythm within myself, like a, a tune within myself and I will sing it or hum it to myself. So that makes perfect

  Michelle: Intuitively. See,

  look at that. Without even realizing that that's what I'm doing. So that makes so much sense. Thank you for that insight.

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, first of all, I, it's just a reflection that [00:35:00] you are more intuitive than you realized,

  Megan: Great.

  Michelle: you know? And I think that that's what it is. I think that a big part of this whole thing is, is to trust ourselves. And I think we put and I'm sure you can relate to this, and I'm sure you see this a lot.

  We put so much of our. Trust outside of us, especially when we're going through this, which can sometimes, especially if like the medical community doesn't really understand it and they, they say they don't really understand it. And we're putting all our trust in in that. And part of how we're made up is that we have this in innate intelligence within our bodies that communicates with

  Megan: Yeah. Oh yeah. To protect yourself. So yes, that's the number one thing that I definitely tell people is that you need to trust those feelings. If you're feeling like you are not being heard by your medical profession, professional, go get another one.

  Michelle: absolutely.

  Megan: get another one.

  Michelle: Yeah, and it's a game changer.

  It could change [00:36:00] everything.

  Megan: Yeah. Again, if my mother had not trusted herself in knowing. Me. I don't know where I would be today. Like, I

  Michelle: I love your mom. Like everything that you're telling me, she sounds like such an amazing mother.

  Megan: She is, she is. And in that so she was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, and she actually is, she looks at me and she says, oh, well, you know, you were, you're such a voice for the PCOS community. I now want to donate myself. As in like, I want to be a part of Alzheimer's or dementia studies.

  Because I feel like you, you did that and now I need to do it. So she has definitely, yeah. She's, she's so

  Michelle: so you've inspired her. Look at that. That's incredible.

  Megan: right. We, we played off of each other, so she helped me. Now it's time for me to help her.

  Michelle: Aw, that's so sweet. And you know, I'm really hoping, Megan, that for both PCOS and you know, Alzheimer's dementia, that [00:37:00] we're gonna move in a direction that's more innovative and. I really am. And I feel like, I think people are really kind of going back to the basics and learning a lot now, and the information that we never really used to have, like the podcast and is coming out, there's a lot of information on really coming back to the basics.

  Nutrition, certain supplements, certain medications. So I feel like we're kind of in a place, I think collectively that we are moving to more solutions than Yeah, I, I feel it too. And when I like was first starting with P-C-O-S-A-A, like, it drove me nuts when every time I would go look for, labs and everything that are studying PCOS. The main thing that they were studying was like the weight loss and the fertility portion. And I'm like, how can you study that without even knowing what it is?

  Megan: Like nobody knows what it is

  and where it came

  Michelle: [00:38:00] body, like specific constitution. 'cause not every Constitution would do well with that.

  Megan: Correct. So I actually ended up finding one lab in the US that is studying like the origins of, and what is PCOS. And we've partnered with them and it's Lugen Labs out of Cornell University. Dr. Lugen is absolutely amazing and so her studies, I can't

  remember

  Michelle: get her on the podcast.

  Megan: Yeah, you should. She's absolutely ama amazing. I love her. Doc, she, she literally, I can't remember when she first started like her studies, but they are now. At the point of where it's providing information. 'cause you know, when you start a study, you, you need like five years,

  Michelle: Yep. To collect data. It was just data

  Megan: data. Right. So she's now at the point where she is getting, getting the data and getting the results and compounding it into actual viable resources and

  Michelle: that's incredible.

  Megan: [00:39:00] Yeah, I can definitely connect you with

  Michelle: Yeah, that would be great. 'cause I think that so many people would benefit from getting that information.

  Megan: Yeah, she she, she has, you know, resource assistance out of the college that sometimes attend our PCOS CON event, our yearly annual PCOS con event, and they give report outs. During that event, the last time we heard from her a report out was not 2025, but 2024. So I'm sure she's got more, more to share.

  She normally does a, a tag up a quarterly tag up meeting with my board to let them know of any findings that she's, they've found or, or how they can help support the PCOS community and what we can do. You know, it's a, it's a it's a, it know, a partnership.

  Michelle: I, I just love what you're doing. I just think that what you're doing is so powerful. Like it's crazy how, you know, people go through things all the time, but what makes a person like realize or act upon that problem that [00:40:00] many people are facing and saying, Hey, you know, people need to know more about this, and kind of the choice that you made.

  To create this incredible community and resource for so many people. I think that's a big deal. Like not everybody would act on doing something like that. And then in turn, you're not only influencing so many people, you've influenced your mom. It's incredible.

  Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that. Because it's, it's rough.

  Michelle: I'm sure

  Megan: It could be, it could, yeah. It's a lot of work. I you know, the nonprofit, we are all, when I talk about the board and everybody on it, we're all volunteers, including myself. None of us are taking any paychecks or anything like that. We all have day jobs.

  We all have lives that we lead outside of it. And I think that's the number one thing that I hope that people like when, when they are looking at starting things, please, please do, but at the same time do know [00:41:00] it is hard work and that you really do have to need to have a passion for it. And I. Strongly feel for personal.

  My personal, like this is my legacy. This is what I was put on this earth to do,

  Michelle: That's amazing. It, it's incredible because I feel like you know, with all that work, you are moving the needle.

  Megan: thank you.

  Michelle: Just people listening right now to realize, oh, there's something that can be done. There's resources, and I can find out more information. I think just kind of demystifying that, just the demystification aspect without even the resources is huge.

  Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that.

  Michelle: Yeah, I think it's amazing. So for people listening, if they wanna learn more and they want to like maybe go to your events eventually, or you

  know, Yeah, How can they find you? Where do they start?

  Megan: Yeah. So we do have a website and it's www.pcosaa.org. We have a website [00:42:00] separate from that, that is our, for our PCOS con. So, in 2019, I brought, I know my board hates me sometimes because sometimes I'll, like, I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like, Ooh.

  Michelle: That's a download. That's what that is. That's the PCOS. Angels talking to you. Be like we need you for something else.

  Megan: Right. So in 2019, I, I went to the beginning of 2019. I went to the board and I was like, so I wanna put on something called the PCOS con and I wanna do it this year.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Megan: were like, you're nuts. But we did it. We put on PCOS con and it was supposed to be every year, but then of course 2020, our lovely pandemic hit and we had to you know, we had to. Go a different direction. We went virtual, so in 20 20, 20 21, and then 2022 we were virtual. So we have decided going forward, we are even years, we are virtual, odd years we are in person. So in 2025 we [00:43:00] did New York we did New York and LA in 2025. And in 2023 we did New York. LA and Texas. So we are, we're trying to like, you know, travel and bring it to people and make sure that we are, you know, get, getting all sorts of people to be able to come into the actual event.

  So for PCs Con, we do have a separate website for that, and it's just PCs con.org that you can find that we are on all social media, including, let's see, Facebook. TikTok Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn. Somebody was telling me that I need to do Reddit, but I really don't even know.

  Michelle: I know there's so

  Megan: Look, look people old,

  Michelle: I know day something new comes up and I'm like, what? What is

  Megan: right?

  Michelle: And then I have to learn this new thing.

  Megan: No, I, the team does it. Like they, they all said, oh, we need TikTok. And I was like, I sure hope you guys don't think that I'm gonna be on TikTok doing these little dances and, and out here. 'cause [00:44:00] I, 'cause I'm not

  Michelle: yeah,

  Megan: like, I'm even, I'll be very honest with you. I hate being on video. So, which is, which goes back to kind of like what you were saying is, you know, even our own voices, bring, bring kind of a balance. I, I, I don't, I mm-hmm. I don't like being on video because I do not like listening to myself after the fact. So that was an interesting pull from what you said as well. So,

  Michelle: No, but if you, if you have the voice just without hearing yourself back,

  Megan: Right, right. If it's internal, it's my internal voice. It's we had a call last night and they were talking about naming, naming your PCOS, and I was like. Is this something that I can ask chat, GBT to name for me? Like I can put a name to my own PCOS and so then that, that'll be the voice that I hear within my head is that name.

  Michelle: That's awesome.

  Megan: But, but yeah, so you can find us on all, all the different social media. We would absolutely love to have, you know, your listeners be a part during PCOS con. One of the [00:45:00] things we like to do is we like to have different. Sections, different topics that we talk about. Fertility is definitely a topic that we talk about.

  One of the other larger things that can go along with fertility right, is the taboo topics. So we have a section of PCOS con where the first year we did it, we literally came down from, it was at a hotel, so we all came down in our PJ's and we had like, beanbag chairs, popcorn in the middle of the night.

  And we discussed those taboo topics. That have to do with PCOS, sex, fertility just those things that people don't, don't feel comfortable, you know, voicing out loud. We made a very comfortable space to be able to talk about that, those types of things.

  Michelle: Amazing. Well, Megan, it was such a pleasure meeting you. I think what you're doing is incredible and and say hi to your mom for me

  Megan: I will.

  Michelle: because she's, she sounds amazing. She sounds like a gift. And really wishing you and her and your organization the best.

  Megan: Thank you so much. Thank you for [00:46:00] having me.

Ep 373 Beyond the Physical: Taoist Alchemy and the Intelligence of the Body

In this expansive and deeply illuminating episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle is joined by San Qing, a Daoist priest, teacher of internal alchemy, and lifelong explorer of consciousness, healing, and human potential.

San shares his extraordinary origin story, including a near-death experience as a child, spontaneous clairvoyant and healing abilities, and his eventual ordination in Daoist lineages in China. Together, Michelle and San dive into the nature of reality, the illusion of identification with the material world, and how true healing occurs when we access the stillness beneath thought, diagnosis, and fear.

This conversation bridges ancient Daoist wisdom with modern conversations around quantum healing, consciousness, and fertility. It explores how attachment to labels, timelines, and medical predictions can keep the body stuck, and how returning to the “void,” the place of non-identity and stillness, allows the body and spirit to reorganise into harmony.

This episode is a powerful invitation to remember that healing is not something we force, but something we allow when we reconnect with our deeper intelligence.


Key Takeaways: 

• Healing begins beyond the physical body, in consciousness and energy

• Identifying too strongly with diagnoses can limit what the body is capable of

• Stillness and non-attachment create space for transformation

• The body must be able to hold the energetic charge of healing

• Ancient Daoist teachings offer a roadmap for embodied, sustainable healing
  

Connect with San Qing:

Website: https://immortaltaoistrites.com/

The Way 126 App (Web, iOS & Android): https://theway126.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiY-8SXc5g7oJRlA02tQluw

Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/theway_126

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast ing.

  San: So, so grateful to be here. Thank you, Michelle. It's, um, it's an incredible honor to be on your podcast and we, we hold a dear friend, a mutual friend, family to me, and it's, you know, it's, it's great to have a community that, you know, observes the blatantly obvious That seems to be a distortion for most people, which is

  Michelle: Yes, I know we're gonna have an incredible conversation. I'm actually, I really was looking forward to this. Um, our mutual friend, uh, Julie Ryan is an incredible, intuitive, and, um, she's just like a master in her own world, um, and in our world, she's just an incredible human being. I know that, um, well, she's already diagnosed me and said very specific things, so she's really on it.

  So I knew that when she [00:01:00] mentioned you, there was definitely a reason we needed to meet. And then I'm reading about you and I'm just so excited to dive in because, um, pretty much everything that I'm reading is right up my alley. Um, I love the whole consciousness conversation. I love the mysticism. Um, which it's funny how we call it mysticism, but it's actually reality, but it seems to be kind of hidden.

  So we're gonna really unpack a lot of that. Um, before we do get started, I would love for you to share your origin story. I always like to get started with that so people can get to know you.

  San: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we can do a little bit of an abbreviated thing. Uh, I know we've only got one lifetime

  Michelle: It's always a long story, I think, for everybody.

  San: But you know, it, it, it started, uh, as a young boy, uh, about three or four. Um. I focused on many [00:02:00] things, but more of the fact my obsession with superheroes. And because I was left alone as a latchkey kid, you'd think back in my generation that was not abnormal to have children left by themselves. That didn't end up as a, a huge community disservice where the parents are looking at like 20 years in jail time.

  So there were moments when the TV was my best friend and I, I was very aware of something bigger that was in the room. And so I was able to see through walls and, and see through people's bodies, and, and it was, it was very familiar for me. So being obsessed with reading comic books, uh, the Hulk, uh, Superman, Batman, all that kind of stuff just jelled with me.

  So I was curious. Yet I knew there was something very, very normal about these type of powers. And so I had experienced little bits. And by the age of eight, uh, I [00:03:00] came across an experience where I was hit head on by a car and literally was dead for like

  Michelle: Wow.

  San: So what happened was, um, drunk driver, of course it seems to be a common thing that's like, whoa.

  Ran right over me. My bike bike jam between his front wheels and the, and the road I flew up in the air would've seemed to be 20 feet. I saw the top of the trees hit the side of the road. I got up at that point, I was only literally a car space tow at the front of my house. And I, at the time I was living in the country, so it was a pretty remote, but I was riding from the center of town out to my house, which was like a, like a, a country style farm.

  And so I got up after being hit. The only thing I could think about was I have to see my mother before I die. And as I stepped forward, I fell backwards. The second my body hit the ground, I was Peter Pan. I was flying [00:04:00] around, like literally observing my environment where I witnessed my mother screaming as she was running to my lifeless body.

  And I was just consumed with I can fly anywhere. I was like, I am Superman. I shot up to the top of like the sky, the universe, and then came back down still observing this tragedy. And so this, this death experience to rebirth was really the catalyst for my curiosity, which led me deeper into a fascination with the Chinese culture.

  And, you know, um, by the age of 10 I got became pretty mildly obsessed with bodybuilding and power lifting. And I picked up a. A, um, manual, a, a self sort of diagnosis of reality by this goofy guy by the name of Arnold Schwarzenegger called Education of a Bodybuilder. And so I was using that as my bible as a young boy.

  [00:05:00] So at that point I was fasting and doing a lot of things nutritionally that are more community-wise, um, received and accepted. So I got deep into that culture. I started competing when I was 15 years old, got down to about 4% body fat at about 187 pounds. Then I progressed as I got into my late teens pulling ridiculous weights.

  800 pound deadlift, 800 pound squat. And these were for reps. This was not my pr so I had no bar boundaries because my mentor was teach me, he was a 30 year veteran of bodybuilding. So it was teaching me about nutrition and, and training. So I had a really in depth understanding of all the mechanics. So when I'm using like fats to get shredded at the age of 11, like literally walking around with a bag of like walnut oil, um, coconut oil, things that most people wouldn't even, and [00:06:00] in those days had no idea about.

  They didn't know what fasting was. They didn't know about, um, the ketogenic process, what that really means, how you can harness your hormones. So I was on a journey of mastering

  Michelle: And where did you grow

  San: And so that led in Australia. So I, by the time I was 17, 18, I, there was a lot of stress on the physiology. Um, I was tipping over 300 pounds in body weight at, at about 20 plus percent, which was insane for my age.

  But I really had no boundaries because my mind led the reality. So if someone did, if I was deflated by a early twenties when I was, someone subtly told me, it's like someone telling you that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Someone made it clear to me that, you know, Schwarzenegger was using peds and other things of that nature.

  I didn't believe [00:07:00] it. 'cause I had nothing to limit myself. One of the, the most powerful things my mother ever shared with me was, if you think it, you can create it mind over matter. Just a very simplistic sort of way to live, but. You have the ability to create your reality. So by 1718, voice in my head, you need to go and find meditation completely like changing the direction of my life as an obsessive physically, um, tactile individual to something.

  That seemed so foreign in those days. It was, it was referred to as, uh, Hari Krishnas and vegans with hairy armpits. I mean, there was really no standard. You, uh, you know, we're coming out in the eighties from sort of a revolution of the sixties and seventies where people were obsessed with psycho Nordic experiences, you know, LSD and all that kind of good stuff.

  So what was that really? I mean, we've got shades of like eastern [00:08:00] culture from the late forties, fifties moving into the sixties with yoga under and, and Hari Krishnas and all this Eastern philosophy stuff. And it was steeped in this mystic aspect. So I had always had a fascination with the Chinese culture.

  Most of the time. Whenever I would have time, I'd go into the Center of Sydney and go to the movies and hang out in Chinatown. And it was like this natural, um. Homeostasis. I, I, the culture was so ingrained into who I am, and so that led me to this moment where I discovered meditation by looking up what they call, and I tell my kids, I have six kids.

  Hey, it's called a classify. What is that? Well, that was in a newspaper. what's a newspaper? I mean, it's just funny how history changes. Anyway, so I discovered this meditation class, and this thing's telling me, you gotta try it now. [00:09:00] My golden rule in life is I'll try anything once. I don't know

  whether that's good or what did you know about meditation? Nothing. You Now hurry, Krishna. Like, yeah. And you know, meditation was so foreign. It was like, okay, I'm good at picking up things, crushing them and throwing them. That was my instinct, that was my survival, that was my ability to transmute things. And I was extremely laser focused. Little did I know I was already.

  Master my skills from a very young age. After my, my death and rebirth, it was a natural order. I would literally focus on something and it would trans translate and transmute into that. So I've been giving over and over again. You know, when you get under a weight, it's really not measured the, the power of the body until you really have to meet that moment where the tactile response of the, the flesh meeting the steel is really what sort of [00:10:00] adversity is necessary in this day and age, because generations, many generations leading up to this current one, they've become so soft that they don't know what it's like to live in their body.

  And so, so many people are obsessed with getting outside of themselves. I don't wanna come back. This is a, this is a prison planet. I mean, there's many theories on. Someone's version of reality, which I'm not discounting, but like there is a reason within DAOs, uh, alchemy and the path of DAOs rights that you want to meet that moment.

  The, the most natural order is that selection of the body can be a recreation, if not heaven on earth. You are a macro of a micro. So the, you know, the charge that we get right now by speaking on this, we can feel the visceral effects of that. That kin kinesthetic charge is a consensus that we're having that, you know, to my parapsychologists [00:11:00] friends is psychokinesis.

  There is a absolute consensus that there is something greater. There is an energetic pull that we may not visually see for many of us, if you follow the path of alchemy with end Daoism, it becomes a very natural. Order to be able to see into things and have great depth of information in all layers from the ORIC field to the mind, to the body, all converging together.

  And your ability to read that would be in more current common sensory perception like Clare Voyance mediumship channeling. That's, that's all goes under the same umbrella of, of a DAOs priest. These are all the things that I teach people that have been for many decades. It's kind of like a, it's part of the course of, of, of natural selection.

  You recognize that you are all these things, you are iterations of everything. All is one, one is all. So the great [00:12:00] bellows we call it is that you are contracting, expanding at the same time you are. All things are nothing at the same time. And your mission, if you choose to accept it, Ethan Hunt, is to find the center point.

  Find the center a point, which we refer to within Daoism is, uh, the primordial mother, the ji, the stillness that from that arrives, this resonance that is heaven on earth. This ability to transmute energy potential and it's vibratory, sequential, it holds resonance. And once you hold that resonance, oh yes, it will be yours.

  Oh, yes, it will. So then you garner that and you enrich yourself in what we refer to as absorbing the riches. We start to saturate the physical body. That flesh and blood that looks back at you in the mirror is 50 trillion cells of potential electrical charges that can now be emanated and converges. One, you become the maestro, the [00:13:00] actual.

  In, in definition of immortality crystallized in the material. By the way, one of my books, no Plug, you find that you create heaven on earth by synergizing yourself, and that that longevity is one of the major, uh, keys to any Daoist path that you recognize that by walking through that vesica, that center point we refer to as the ouje, you are everything and nothing, and that you, you don't fit into one category.

  Daoism is one of those neutral things where people don't recognize. It's like, well, it's not my football team, it's everyone's football team, and we all come together recognizing that passing through. The, the whole what? The holy stream, we refer to the convergence. Once you recognize the symbiotic dance between yin and yang is this beautiful little tango that takes [00:14:00] place within this material state.

  Magical things take place, really take place, and so you have to move past what someone would fundamentally, within a dualistic or centric, non centric state recognize things as identity or subjective to a point of a fixated point IE the exogenous consumption of the cannibalistic behavior of the human condition personality, finite mind.

  It's not a requirement. The true passage, right of passage of the Taoist is. Natural and it is a dow given, right? That comes with the very synergistic realization. You are everything, the primordial mother ops, the gateway. And guess what We find this serendipitous [00:15:00] synchronistic moment. Wwe. Effortless action.

  Michelle: thing ever.

  San: You know? And I mean, as you pour yourself into your round cup, you are already, you are already trancing into that energy, my friend, and you're melting in like butter on a hot frying pan. It just all synergizes. We are communing, we are meeting this very moment and we are high as af right now getting into this state.

  And it, it's magical when, when you recognize that, that's the potency. So I find this meditation class. I reluctantly drive out there. I'm like 18 years old. I'm thinking, Hmm. It's in a bad neighborhood. I mean, I'm an overgrown gorilla, right? You know, people would look at me and be petrified, but I was more concerned.

  I'm a, I'm a little teddy bear, so I drive out there and it's a, it's basically a free workshop. I kind of figured there was some angle, like someone was trying to [00:16:00] write off a nonprofit or something, you know? It's like, okay, this woman's a grandma. She's gonna offer this, um, meditation. She was a Qigong grandma, whatever.

  I was like, look, it's free. It's, let me go there. So I turned up. Reluctantly parked in the parking lot of the wreck center. It was being offered at a, a, you know, a community sort of center around me was just like chaos, mayhem, screaming dogs, barking ambulances. It was in a bad neighborhood. Let's be very clear.

  I'm not gonna sugar coat it. So I pulled out, I get out of the parking lot, I walk up the stairs to this rec center and walk in the door and there's a pew of people sort of like fussing around getting into this weird position that I later found out was called the lotus position, kind of sitting weird.

  Me, I was, you know, stone sort of trying to milk back to butter, but it wasn't really happening at that point. I'd [00:17:00] trained myself to be stringent and, and. And stoic and hard. So I had to crack open the soft center. So I'm attempting to sit down in this lotus position. I look like an overgrown eight, trying to scratch my ass.

  This woman is walking around and standing. She would come up to here on me and I'm just sort of hunching over and, you know, she was so receptive and, and opening. She didn't really go, oh, you need to do this, do that. She was just observing, letting people get into position and people are like wanting to run their hot chakras and they're sitting in there and they're posturing themselves, attempting to straighten their, their channel, their flow.

  And uh, I was just trying to survive. I was hearing all this crap outside. I was really thinking, I'm, I need to get up and leave. This is not for me. Whatever this meditation thing is, I want action, man. I want crushing, I want physical engagement. I was more concerned with the screaming, the [00:18:00] dogs barking, whatever.

  And so she, she gets comfortable, she looks around, she walks up to me, she just kind of smiles and nods her head and keeps walking around the room, gets in the center of the room and I'm thinking, I'm gonna get up and go, I don't wanna interrupt this anymore. And all of a sudden she goes, I want you to, um, listen to my voice.

  And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in the same second then she said, and then everything will fall away. And I kid you not for 20 minutes, I stop sound. Well, I observed stopping sound. Nothing gone. I'm like, my, my eyes are like sauce. And there was no sound. I'm looking around the room, she's looking at me going and I'm like. It's like, there's no freaking sound. I can't hear anything coming out of her mouth. 'cause she's, IG too, too, too. At my moment of, of, of inquiry, it was a meditation. So I imagine someone was speaking [00:19:00] something, nothing, no sound in the background, no sound outside, gone. And my eyes were getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

  And for 20 minutes I was like, this is it. This is the superpower that I was looking for. I have found it. I have met it. Holy crap. I need this now. And so this went on for 20 minutes. I was blown away and she was very humble and soft and said, oh, you did very well, thank you. I left there going, what next? I mean, I didn't pursue her, it was just a natural thing.

  So I went back to the, um, the classifieds and I was like, okay. Channeling. Someone said channeling. I'm like, what am I gonna channeling? What is that finder? And how did the newspaper, this guy's offering a channeling class. So I turned up to that the next day, I'm addicted. I'm like, whatever this is, I want more of it.

  I [00:20:00] mean, this is crazy. I mean, stopping sound like I was just so over overwhelmed with excitement. I turn up to this channeling class and this guy looks at me and goes, no. I'm like, whoa, no. And I'm like, whoa. I said, no, no, and I'm, can you please let me know why you're saying no? I'm just here for the, I don't care.

  You are not someone that needs to be in this class. And I'm like. Hey, look, you're offering it. Take my money. I think it was five or 10 bucks at the time. It was like, you know, back in those days it was a lot of money back in the eighties. I'm like, no. I'm like, please just let me, you know, I wanted to write.

  It's like, take a look around you look at a place, and I did look at a place, everyone else looked like a [00:21:00] hippie just hanging out with their organic clothes on and they were very, very much relaxed, vegan types. He's like, this is not gonna help you. Whatever you're looking for, you're not gonna find it.

  You'll never be able to do this. I'm like, can I please just be here? Like this force was like, you must be here. So. He let me sit on the class, not five, 10 minutes later, the whole room was standing around me with their sticks, with marshmallows, cooking it from the emanation of, of the vibration frequency that was coming outta my body.

  'cause I hit, lasu, entered my body at a, at a, at a, a velocity that was like a rocket shooting off to the moon. And I was sweating profusely and emanating this radiance that I'd never, I was like, I am, I'm observing my body literally vibrating and moving in a, in a pattern that I've [00:22:00] never expressed before and my mouth was unable to open and something was talking through me, where as I looked through my eyes, there was a superficial energy that was laying on top of me that was speaking to the audience.

  I had no control over. My mouth was shut. So. Was lasu talking and this guy was like, really? And everyone was like, holy crap, how is this happening? I had no expectation that was I, I fundamentally, I remind people, I'm like, accept everything at face value like a child, and you'll be shocked if you're childlike in your nature, what can come about of your own exploration of self, that things can literally happen instantaneously.

  You don't have to spend lifetimes committing to anything if you allow yourself to be a recipient to really [00:23:00] receive the new version of self, the new iteration of self. So I was channeling Lazu and everyone was freaking out. All these words were coming out. I was speaking on it. Then it got really freaky because then he left my body and now I seem him as clear as I see you now everywhere.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  San: Like, now I'm looking at this spirit that is like as dense and as 4K, eight K as you are, and hearing his voice and I'm like, okay, I'm officially crazy. This is awesome. I can't wait.

  Michelle: So he became your than that. I'm like, well, he's teacher. Yeah. Still to this day, 30 years later, he is still my teacher.

  San: And channeling is an art form that can be taken on by anyone. 'cause we all do it. You don't realize you're being calm and did by your attention, intention, understanding the convergence of conscious and unconscious. We're doing it all the time. As one of my

  [00:24:00] teachers would say, uh, Jade I wholeheartedly agree.

  right? Well, he, he always reminds us all sorts of, your mind are not yours.

  Well then whose are they?

  Michelle: I was just literally listening to that in a, an audio book today. It was talking about how, uh, it's like the muse, you know, creations. It, it's coming from somewhere. We're really channeling it. It's not just randomly coming from

  San: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, um, started talking to this guy that was literally an apparition that was as dense as you are. And I think I've lost my mind because as a young boy, I warded off, um, a, a, a pretty big virus for most of my friends who were sort of aimless and they couldn't understand why my obsession with bodybuilding and power lifting became, um, more dominant than anything else.

  So I'd hang out with my childhood friends that, you know, in my teens and they'd all be smoking dope, taking [00:25:00] drugs, all this kind of stuff. And I'd be in the corner of the room reading a muscle and fitness magazine going, you know, and, and, and at a certain point, I think I was 16, they were like, you know what?

  You gotta go. I'm like. What you're a buzzkill. Like either take the drugs or not. But I'm like, we're being friends for so long. It's like, just get outta here man. And like I was so adamant, there was a force at that point throughout my childhood that said, do not touch that stuff. Nothing. Not a don't go near it.

  And I was like, okay, I'm cool with that. It doesn't, it's not swaying me one way, another, I couldn't care less about these things. But later in my teenage years at the point where I got to channeling lets sue outta my 20 childhood friends, pretty much most of them had committed

  suicide because it's such a daunting effect now.

  I would say that's even worse now because [00:26:00] they're being completely bombarded with this false, uh, distortion through digital media that makes it very difficult for a young mind to get a handle on who they are. Very difficult, very dis, too much distortion, too much

  information. So I had all, what happened was by the time I was seeing Lazu, I thought I'd lost my mind like everyone else, because they just started to just melt away their own sense of self, their own persona just disintegrated.

  And I witnessed that throughout my whole teenage life. And so I was like, I wanted to avoid this. So now all of a sudden I've gone and started this channeling thing. Now I'm seeing gray men talking to me, hearing them, seeing them, I'm, I've lost my mind. And I was so deep into it from no sound to this. It was like a gut punch.

  So the third day turns around this guy's offering channel, [00:27:00] um, clairvoyance training. I'm like, oh yeah, well, and he's like, dude, I'm not. So, and a 60 year veteran, completely pissed off that some newbie barbarian walks into his very refined channeling class and literally is channeling this high level of wisdom and source information.

  And I really didn't know what I was doing. Of course I didn't. But I knew that I was at, arrived home with this energy and this relationship with, uh, Lazu. And so now I've got this in the background. I see this guy with my eyes open. I'm going batshit crazy at this point. I'm all in. What else could, what's, what else could possibly happen after two days of mind bending stuff?

  Sure. So I went through this channeling workshop, um, no, sorry, clairvoyance, and it was a day training. Next minute he goes, okay, I've given you the instruction. Now, a lot of things that I, that [00:28:00] I attribute to me, being able to remember who I am is that there's nothing more to it. You just accept it at face value and it just recognizes and realize itself.

  So I was like, okay, here's the run of the mill bodybuilding power lifting. You do five exercises, three compound, one isolate, uh, low reps, high reps. What? How are you gonna manipulate the muscle fiber to get the response? I mean, that's just my mindset. I've been training for so many years. This is how I do it.

  You eat that. You don't eat that. Here's the endocrine system, manipulated. You sleep, you don't sleep. All the things that you need to stimulate a response within the body. So I took this the same way. It's like, okay, so now I'm seeing this gray guy. I am listening to his voice. I'm hearing him. I'm, I must be going crazy.

  Now. This guy teaches me, oh, this is clairvoyant reading 1 0 1. Read the ORs. Here's how you do it. One through 10. Do do. And so I did the class and here's [00:29:00] the manual. Okay, now read me Mr. Channeler. Like, he was getting really, really, really bitchy. Really, like, had a disdain for me now because he was like, this is ridiculous.

  I've done this for 60 years. What happened to the spiritual enlightenment? And this, this barbarian clown walks in and he's channeling, you know, Zu. And so it's like, yeah, sure, go ahead. Show me how you could channel, I mean, uh, read my, read my aura, and I'm like, okay. And I, you know, there's no standard. I'm just giving this one through 10 sort of thing.

  I'm like, okay. Um, okay. There's an energy telling me you don't continue to give them. Your students' life force, they will kill you. And he was just like, what? Up, up, up. We're in like a small little environment like someone's house and [00:30:00] they had like this group of 20 people get up, go in the other room, get up, get up, get up, go.

  And I'm being pushed in. I'm like, what, what, what did I do? He sits me down. He goes, what did you just say to me? And I was like, I don't know. Like you asked me to read your energy. This energy came in and it's saying that if you don't continue giving them the energy of your students, it's gonna take your life. And then next minute, it's giving me this confession. Okay, look, I need you to understand something. I'm, I'm, I'm in a transition. I'm, I'm reprioritizing how, and I'm not, I'm not hearing anything. I just want, my goal is. Did I hit the goal coach or did I not hit the goal? Because that's all I'm looking for.

  Did, was it, was it close to, did I go through the goalpost? I mean, what's going on? So he's confessing to me that this is his behavior, this is what he's doing. He's like, he's literally really siphoning energy from his students. And I'm like, it wasn't comprehending in my mind. 'cause what do I [00:31:00] know? I'm like, three days into this whole experience, what the hell do I have a clue about?

  You know, c siping energy from people or knowing what energy is, or auras or, I mean, this is all foreign. So next minute he starts confessing and it finally hits me and I go, did I get it right? like, look, I need no, did I get it right? Is this information correct? Look, I just, no, no, no, no. Just tell me.

  'cause I, I'm goal oriented. It's like, tell me. He's like, yes, but I want to explain myself. And I was just like, holy shit. This is mind blowing to me. This is like, this is like out of the, this is out of my TV shows. This is the comic books. This is what Superman does. This is, I mean, it was just overwhelming.

  One thing after another. And so he does a confession [00:32:00] thing. Um, latest story about him, if we get to it, fourth day goes in, I get, I get a crash course in what they call distant healing. Everyone knows what this is. This is a common denominator. You know, you, you apply either, uh, physical acupuncture or you could do virtual acupuncture.

  You can do all types of way crazy things to access people's channels. Um, I finished this thing. I go home. I'm getting a call. 'cause in those days we have rotary phones, you know, it's like we don't have cell phones, dude. We're never like put away. So a friend of mine calls and she goes, look, I can't make it.

  I was gonna come and see you today. My ankle's busted, I rolled it. It's the size of watermelon. I'm probably gonna be off it for days. It's gonna take me weeks to, to rehab this scene. It's over. And I'm like, oh, that's too bad. I want to catch up with you. And she was like, go look, I'll catch up with you. And she went to to, to hang up on me and I was like, [00:33:00] hold on.

  She's like, what do you mean hold on, hold on. I learned this thing today. And she's like, mm, what It's called distant healing. And she's like, oh, what is that? I'm like, can you just give me five seconds? Can I try this thing on you? Like if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. If it works, you're gonna feel better.

  She's like, look, can you just hurry up? Whatever it is. I said, it'll take two minutes. So I had again, another script. It had the form, it had an incantation, which evoked certain things. Then you would speak through it, and then in the end you would cast it with a specific, um, uh, catalyst. Um, what they refer to as, um, the vehicle of the divine mother.

  So this would, would evoke the magic and solidify it. So I went through the, the, the instruction and she's like, can you hurry up, [00:34:00] please, please. I'm like, two seconds. Two seconds. I'm just about, now I'm gonna say this thing. I'm gonna say it. A couple of words, just don't make any sense of it. And then let's see what happens.

  And she's like, please hurry up. I just wanna get off the phone. So I do, I go through the thing next when I'm like, heal, heal, heal, heal, heal. It was five words. That's it. Then I hear whatever, and she starts screaming through the phone and I'm like. What, what? And I'm like, what? And she goes, I don't know what kind of sorcery you're into, but my ankle just shrunk and it's back to normal.

  And I'm standing on it right now. What is going on? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm thinking I'm seeing a a, an old dude talking to me. I'm pretty much insane at this point. It's like, what, what else can happen? I'm, I'm reading Aus, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm like, sure it did. At this point, I [00:35:00] want to dispute things.

  'cause I'm, I know I'm going crazy, but I wanna dispute it. She's like, you need to come over here. This is crazy. And I'm like, back in those days, Polaroids are big things. Take the snapshot, you know? Oh yeah. Check it out. Look what, what? We've taken a photo of blah, blah, blah. She was a, she had a habit of taking photos before and before and after of anything.

  Right. Whatever it is, she was bought out of her mind. So she's take photos of her. I get over to her place, she's living with her parents. She runs up to me, gives me a big hug, and then it's like, okay, you're standing. That's great. My ankle swollen size of a a, a cantaloupe. I'm like, I don't see that. 'cause I wanted to, I want to push back on all this craziness.

  I'm like, I need to stop. Like this is getting insane. She shows me the Polaroid that I freak out and she goes, I'm standing on it and I'm like, holy shit. And the mother's sitting there 'cause it's [00:36:00] in her family home. And her mother had a habit of, you know, her, her normal remedy is two packs of cigarettes in a bottle of vodka is the normal remedy for a day in the life of.

  So she's sitting there puffing away. You know, back in those days secondhand spoke was good for you. You know, it's like, and I'm like doing this and she's talking to me and the mother's sitting there and she goes. knew you were a healer. And I was like, are you talking about? I knew you were a healer. What does that even mean? And so I'm having this three-way spiritual doctor filled with these people. They're like, yeah, look, you can do it. You have the superpower. I'm like, I dunno what you think I have. I just followed instruction. If this is accurate, you have definitely received a healing. And so this gets to a nominal level [00:37:00] where a phenomenal level where the mother goes, I want you to come back tomorrow.

  I've got a problem with my foot. So in essence, she doesn't believe in doctors. She has a stupid, stupid amount of money. She has a bunch of yes people around her. She had a distended stomach. Like honestly, she's near death. Like in my opinion. Like she couldn't say anything, just smokes away, drinks, vodka, whatever.

  So I turn up to her house, I got lasu talking to me in the periphery. I'm seeing him. It's like, okay, well what else could happen? I mean is, what am I gonna do here? I'm gonna, you got a problem with your foot? So I literally turn up going, well, what am I gonna do? Sure, let's play along with this. I pull her sock off.

  It was gangs. It was like black. And I'm like, whoa. I don't know. I mean, I'm not a doctor. I'm just like, uh, I dunno what, I'm crazy. All this kind of stuff. And I'm thinking in my head now, LA's like, no, no, no, no. [00:38:00] And I'm like, what do you mean? No, no, no, no. You are gonna watch your healing. I'm like, what do you mean watch your healing?

  And I sat there and for 40 minutes, watched her foot go from black to pink in color

  Michelle: That's crazy. Wow.

  San: beyond

  Michelle: but they do that. I, I've seen videos of that in China with the

  San: Oh yeah. It's, it's 100% real. I've been experiencing

  Michelle: You can actually, they, they recorded it, uh, where tumors would shrink

  in tumor. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've seen everything from

  San: that

  to tumors disappear. Um, when I got comfortable with it, I used to just take, uh, sebaceous cysts raised to the top of the skin and burst them like, you know, volcanoes. That was my favorite. That's my favorite. That was my obsession. So this turns into I, I, I need to find more. So then it became a passion of mine. I got involved with, uh, a couple of teachers. I ended up [00:39:00] going to China that ordained in two lineages of Daoism. Um, kind of long story short, 'cause we could go on for hours. I'm very good at, uh, storytelling. And so here I am today, 30 plus, 36 years later, teaching people internal alchemy because I had to make sense of this.

  Like, of course if you, if you go deeper in understanding the layers of self, I'm just reliving a life that I've had a thousand times over. And it's for me to experience this, this un unimaginable, unlimited state that returns everyone back to their, their greatest level of homeostasis. This holiness the holy stream.

  And so Daoism, um, within that sense of internal alchemy, we refer to the knee. Knee done and Wade done coupling. You evoke and Ong is the internal power that you derives from that [00:40:00] chemical process. And so the more you understand how these things work, you're off to the races and pretty much there's nothing that cannot be achieved.

  It's all about transmuting distortion, which is a lower sequential state of energy potential. The material, and we refer to this within DAOs me metaphysics as the highest point being the primordial mother. She's the void. She animates consciousness. Consciousness animates the she, the spirit. The spirit animates energy.

  Energy animates the material world, the body, the lower distortion, different variables. What most people tend to do is they play between the material world and the energy, and they never really meet themselves where attention, intention. Generates what we call sheenang, which is spirit power. That arrives and then all of a sudden you are now able to create perfection, heaven on earth.

  These [00:41:00] things arrive when you converge. Past, present, and future. There is, it's not subject to time and space. It's all just one stream. a make sense

  Michelle: me. Um, hopefully for the listeners, but I mean, listen, you know, we have, um, Dr. Joe Dispenza doing a lot of this and, and, and creating research, really bridging the science and, and the spirituality. And this, it really comes down to that quantum, that void. That's the quantum, it's really coming to that place.

  And I think that, uh, we, I think as a collective have been so conditioned to. Identify with the material, material world. So we're in this constant reaction and stuck into that same state because we're only reacting and responding to the material. Nothing else. And so this, uh, you were saying the energy and the material.

  So I see this a lot in my own practice because I work with fertility and like, and, and so [00:42:00] many things landed when you were talking about even channeling. 'cause it's a form of channeling. And so where are those blocks? And I think those blocks can be ignored or not seen or like missed by many people because there's so, there're center of focus that kind of like we were talking about when you were first starting to train, you get so hyper-focused on that material, on that goal that you miss everything behind the scenes that's impacting what you're looking at.

  And so, um. I always say, there's always that it really begins in that spiritual aspect that like, um, refined aspect of ourselves that we rarely pay attention to. And so getting that into that state of quietness like you've experienced when you were meditating, getting into that state or allowing ourselves that opportunity to experience that state of quietness.

  And you look at all of, a lot of the ancient, um, [00:43:00] teachings and they all really come down to, and they always, always point us back to that void, that non-attachment. They say, don't get to attached. The more you get attached, you're consistently keeping yourself in that wheel. And I think about what you were talking about before, and I, when you're talking about that void, that kind of state, um, I see it as like the eye of the storm.

  You can get yourself sucked into that, that circular wheel, or you can kind of go back into that. Void. And from a material aspect, the void feels like we're gonna lose everything. But that's really where we find our power. So it's kind of like, um, you, you almost can't look at it from a material perspective if you really want to gain that power because the material aspect it, which is like kind of where the ego, you know, that ego mind will always kind of teach [00:44:00] you or convince you that you're losing by doing that.

  But we can't lose 'cause that's where we come from. We come from this glorious state that really has no words to describe it. So like that glorious state. It just is, it's kind of beneath everything else. And the only way we can really connect with it is really, uh, to detach and kind of get into that inward space of stillness.

  That's kind of how I perceive it.

  San: No, I agree with you. I mean, it, it's understanding the, the, the, the effects of. The exogenous trials of the finite mind, which has turned you into, you know, your Sherlock to your Watson, the human condition through the labyrinth of the finite, my mind coming out the other end as a human being that requires a level of [00:45:00] tenacity, uh, security, and then insecure states where you are, what we refer to as the selfishness to the selflessness requires the sacrifice.

  And that sacrifice is a, a version of self that cannot be broken. So the version of self that cannot be broken is the very self that needs to go back into the wood chipper. So when you're looking at it from the perspective of just even, um, I just transcribed the DDI ching with lasu. A year and a half ago.

  And so we, there's a, there's an actual 2024 version of the Ding that I channeled immediately from lasu. It's about 300 pages and it's like no other ta Tao de ching ding that you have ever read, read. And so I channel normally channel channel three to five, 600 page books in about a [00:46:00] day in some cases. And so, you know, I have about eight books right now that I'm just about to publish that are all in, in collaboration with lasu.

  So I don't claim to know anything. I'm just, uh, you know, I'm as dumb as rocks and, and the information seems to flow inherently from the fact that I know nothing. And then you know everything. But when you let that be the true guiding force as you are the barometer. And so when you think you don't know, if you know, you feel it's more than a feeling.

  Michelle: I'll be honest, I feel like, um, you know, it's interesting. I, I spoke to an intuitive years ago who was, I think she was the one that, um, won America's, uh, psychic challenge. She had passed away, Michelle White Dove. [00:47:00] Um, and she had mentioned that I have an Asian master and I feel like it could be lasu because I feel like I just get this stuff.

  I naturally just. I just get it, it just makes sense to my mind. And um, it just makes sense. And I think part of it is, is really a, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking, I'm really picturing in my mind somebody holding onto something in the material world, which is kind of the Ellucian, the illusionary world, um, holding on for dear life, thinking that that's going to protect them.

  But the truth is it's just not, it's, it's an illusion. So we're kind of like holding onto an illusion. I think that that's where people get stuck and that's how our bodies get stuck. And we talk about channeling, um, I work with fertility and you know, that's a channeling of the body channeling to connect.

  Sometimes I have my patients and my clients [00:48:00] channel and connect with the spirit babies and that. I see it all the time. I see the connection that they have. I see the signs that they get and the signs that they get relay into what really happens to the point where two of my stories were connected to birth dates of their babies, the future babies, and it was, I mean, I witness it because I'm there with them through the process before they even get pregnant.

  So I can attest to it. I'm a witness and I see those things happening, but the moment they start to get become a channel or they get into the state of channeling, they not only only open themselves up to the information, but in so doing, because you know it's spirit, you know, energy body, they're also impacting their bodies and closely near to that, sometimes it could be about nine months.

  For it to really [00:49:00] manifest into a pregnancy. But I, I see it and I really love hearing you talk because I think that, of course I had my Chinese medicine perspective and I work a lot on nutrition and, but I've always been really drawn to the spiritual aspect of it. And I feel like as I'm talking to you, it's inspiring me to really step into that as a practitioner and to really kind of like lean on that aspect as well.

  Because I feel like that if you, if you really master that, and I don't think we can ever fully master it, but if we really connect to that, I think that that, um, that's really the source. So everything else is secondary.

  San: Mm. Yeah, I mean, you're a hundred percent. I mean, I have a lot of students, most of them are doctors of, of just medicine or doctors of Chinese medicine. I mean, the problem is, is it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not [00:50:00] cohesive until you meet the energy you meet yourself. So all this other stuff is like a, a little bit of an enhancement of who you really are.

  When you return to the secret source, the holy stream, all that other stuff becomes realized and recognized as a remedy. You have to be able to hold the charge. The biggest problem is, is the, the inadequacy and the, the, the part that people like to spiritual bypass. They're very, they're very essence. So they want to go straight to, uh, you know, many of my students of Brahman, 20 year transmitters of high consciousness, cosmic consciousness, all this kind of stuff.

  And I think it's fantastic. But then the hubcaps come off the wheels. The body cannot hold the charge that you are emanating as the tuning fork. The bio field, the actual physicality is, the lens is not a whole. So it's undercooked. [00:51:00] It's never overcooked. So most people pull in an inversion. So for, for the purposes of Daoism, you know, is the inversion, the inverted effects, right?

  Yong is the x. Extra exponential expansion of, so when you meet those two energies, that's when you

  arrive. Being able to not dominate, but regulate and then converge them as one. So most people that become intuitive or more in their intuitive self and less in their intellectual self become corrupted because they pull that and they invert that energy so ness, the absorption, all colors.

  Yong is the admission of all colors. That's it from a DAOs perspective. Now, when we get layers of things like, you know, from me as a priest, you know, I teach people everything from, you [00:52:00] know, understanding about all levels of DAOs magic and being able to remedy it, whether it's an exorcism or dispelling black magic, whatever.

  It's all part and parcel. This whole path and everything returns back to a, a consensus of one stream. And so people get overwhelmed and most, um, psychics and mediums become exhausted. They sell their soul. They, they expend their life force. We refer to it as jing, their constitution, the power that they have, that they were born into, this, their embryonic self that takes that first breath, that then engages the primordial mother's creation of Yong, which is the flesh. Now we get down with it, and I, you know, for most people, I've never seen anyone at a hundred percent when they're, when they come into a [00:53:00] material state of body, yet. Even at 80%, the whole point of Dao alchemy is to teach you to bring your, your physical body to a hundred percent, from a hundred percent to a thousand percent, from a thousand percent to 9000%.

  Then we are embodying and emanating what we refer to as immortality crystallized in the material. Heaven on earth has arrived. You are now the, the evidence of longevity and this life force is being charged and maintained as a so holy stream. This is where magic takes place. This is where serendipitous synchronistic moments are unrivaled.

  They are absolute. The absolute is where you're talking about arriving. It's not a subjective absolute where you need to run in the other direction. My football team's the greatest. No, it's an absolute universal sense of self [00:54:00] that does not require your participation. What? No, the finite mind, your need to lead the charge is unnecessary.

  Take a back seat. Anyone that wants to dismantle their personality, they need to be forewarned. It's a mistake. Recognize that I like chocolate bon bonds. I drive my side by side of the desert a hundred miles an hour, and unfortunately I'm deficient enough to watch Netflix and pay for it, but that is not who I am.

  So that is the fruit and the, the, the chocolate syrup on top of your, to experience this humanistic expression, I have never met a miracle, a supernatural, paranormal, supernormal experience with any form of identity. The convergence of past, present, and future arrive [00:55:00] with nothing. And so. My normal processes is I have people, many, my, a lot of people come to me, grandma's in a coma, and you know you are that guy.

  They tell me, you can help me. Boom. No, grandma's not gonna die. She's gonna come outta the coma. Next day she comes outta the coma. The doctors are like,

  what happened? She was in critical condition and ready to die. No, I had a communication with her. She said she just needed more love and support from her family.

  She had no reason to continue this path. And with this, this union of family and this message, she came right back out to play. Now, this is very common for me. I've been doing this for 30 years, and so miracles are very normal. Seeing weird things like gaseous seal before my eyes, tumors disappear. Um.

  Healings immediately. And some of the most [00:56:00] profound healings that I've witnessed. Everything from someone at the verge of having a C-section, right? And in five seconds the baby about face, just with a communication and boom, that it's an arrival. That happens not too fast 'cause minutes is like you're gonna get, you're gonna get razor burn from that.

  But very short order where someone's been basically holding on in labor due to their own fear. And then their lack of communication with the baby is where you tend to find, you know, resistance and then all of a sudden, boom, you have an arrival. Takes little to no time or communicating and transitioning someone who has really come to the end of the road.

  And so from that. You. You see miracles as, as the whole energy system [00:57:00] shuts down, and then they arrive and as a greater sense of self filling out the space, filling out the room, filling their loved ones with this joy and happiness and love, that was part of who they really were as a humanistic expression. And so all that is just part of a normal day in the office as a doers priest. Yay. So good to be me.

  Michelle: I mean, it's really amazing stuff. And I will say, um, because I've been such a, I guess, a student of Dr. Joe Dispenza for many years. I've gone to so many of his, um, retreats. I, I am fascinated by how he bridges it into like, you know, actual, as much tangible as possible, but it, you know, you can only do so much when you're talking about the quantum and something that's, um, that is not tangible by nature.

  And so I find that everything you're talking about really like, is very similar to the experiences [00:58:00] that they have there, which is you kind of jump timelines. And, uh, you go into a completely different reality and people come in with tumors and they come out without, or they come in with wheelchairs and they come out walking.

  And I, I've seen them right in front of me in the audience. It's really remarkable. So, and his, um, I guess theory because he says, you know, I can only kind of measure what we have, but I can't say why, per se. I could just tell you my theory. And the way he sees it is it is, you know, you're going into this quantum and part of what he says, you go into nothing.

  You go into nothing. Like you completely take away the identification. As you're talking about that, I think about the listeners of this podcast who. Frequently, frequently go to doctors and are given so many labels and identifications and, um, you're infertile or this can't happen for you, or you're, you have no eggs, or, you know, all these [00:59:00] ideas that really get into their minds and seep into their subconscious minds.

  And, um, but I've had so many stories that completely defy that and defy the predictions that they've been given. And it's, it's pretty wild. But when you say identification, I think Wow. Like that, that's probably one of the biggest things is so many people end up identifying with really their diagnosis, which be they don't really know better, they just go to the doctor for that information. And then when they, I think a lot of them end up feeling intuitively, hmm. Maybe this isn't really my path. Like that's typically what I'll see is people feeling that and then finding me, or finding you, or finding people like us, I think because they, they feel something within them. Say, maybe there's something more to this whole journey.

  Maybe there's something [01:00:00] bigger. Maybe there's some kind of intelligence. Maybe there's some way that I can figure this out. Like, and I think that that's, that is a very real thing, but because it is so subtle, we can often mistake it for just a thought and something random.

  San: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, evidence is the true Remedy elementary, my Dear Watson deduction and recognizing that, you know, um, that divine spark is that real seed that creates a level of awareness that turns into, um. Inquiry. An inquiry then blossoms into curiosity. Curiosity feeds the very essence of self. That becomes a belief system. And so that belief system is only met with evidence. And you can go [01:01:00] either way on that. You know, you can feed the system something that is repeatable, that is met with your subjective reality that may not serve you or the community or others, but you are still getting evidence of that. You know, I'm a miserable person and it shows, so it's like I am a positive person.

  And it shows you don't, the simplicity of

  Michelle: I am a magical person and it shows. Yeah, it's like a, the superhero, you know, that's like the, yeah.

  San: And you don't recognize how, how simple that is, that you are the master keeper, creator of your reality. And, uh, you only wanna take ownership when you have given, you've been given the hallmark version of self where, oh yeah, okay, this is considered good. This is, uh, you know, enchanted. This is charming, this is blessed, this is blissful.

  This is [01:02:00] joy. This is harmony, this is happiness. This is love, love being the most subjective thing out there. And yet people tend to think, oh, well, it's a universe. It's, it's only universal. Once you meet that moment. Until then, it could be razor blades and bunny rabbits and unicorns and, you know, uh, cloud farts.

  Who knows? It just varies until you recognize that the sim, the power of Daoist alchemy is this. We refine it down to the universe doesn't have a moral compass. The true essence of the cosmos is the convergence of the sun, the earth, the moon from an alchemical perspective, and you evoke the primordial mother within you are heaven on earth.

  That cosmos is the very expression of the physicality. And you show yourself, your harmonious version will show you that as the barometer of the tuning fork, the, the imperium, the dominion, the maestro to the [01:03:00] very soundtrack of self. And that is derived from meeting that moment. And that moment comes in all different types of forms, but you will find it because you are searching as a seeker, that will become your reality as you continue the path one foot after another.

  I always find, um, you know, dispenser, very thought evoking and sometimes interesting and then a. A little, little bit, uh, you know, dismissing when, when you say mystifying the mystical, it, it, it almost just gives you a, a free ticket. It's like, Hey, look, you're a meth head, but not today.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  San: You have to recognize that you want to make this a formula, which I agree with is a method to the madness.

  But understand that [01:04:00] everyone's origin story, even though they may swear by the, the atheism or whatever it is that they believe, the nihilism, the uh, the delusion, whatever you are at there, is still an origin story that goes deeper. And if you keep looking, you will find it. And it generally doesn't come from scientism.

  Scientism is a, is a byproduct of something greater. So, you know, scientism.

  Michelle: I agree with you. It can you know, you know, and so there's so much magic that comes out of what he puts together. And then on the other side of the coin, if you're listening to the linguistics, there's a, a double negative there. You know, when he talks about the work, there's no such thing in Daoism.

  San: Work doesn't exist. It's an effortless action that derives true mastery.

  Michelle: But not everybody's ready to hear that. I think that that's where

  San: Oh, of course not.[01:05:00]

  Michelle: He's able to bridge people that are still very much identified with the material world and bridge them in an easy way. And then maybe after that they can go into another level of, you know, the, the depth.

  San: Well, well, I think the biggest rub for me is when you, when you, when you harpoon the word work, and for me, I, I'm not a fan of it. I teach people this stuff. I'm, you know, body language and understanding deeper layers of self all the way through to. Neurolinguistic programming, or if you want me to erase your name and have you see me as Justin Bieber, we can do that.

  That's a lot of fun. But that's not, this is a, an iteration that you, you are slipping into a state and so everything is a state, everything is a variable. You have conditioned yourself very well. You sit into a trance very well, and you've been doing that through most of this conversation. You go right into the energy, and I mean, if, if [01:06:00] the audience looks close enough, you are, you are replicating the infinity pattern from the energy that's moving through your body as we're speaking to you, and you don't even recognize that.

  It's, it's a, it's, it's cyclical and it's cycling and the pacing and leading is showing itself through the body. So, you know, divination. More commonly for all my, uh, hypnogogic, uh, ma grand masters of, of something called trance or hypnosis. It's a dirty word. I don't really care to use it, it doesn't really mean much.

  But I mean, this is a deeper state of, uh, you know, idio motor response. This is where you are getting information from the unconscious through the body, and you can get that through tarot cards, uh, you know, dowsing, forks, um, you know, Ouija boards, you name it. You will get a message that will show you something greater, a pendulum.[01:07:00]

  The simplicity as of the pendulum master testing, it will all bring you back to that point. And so. Idio motor returns to idio Grahams, which seem to be a common thing that a lot of my remote viewer friends like to use to teach people this type of state. Um, you know, body Dowsing is a, is an, an ancient da art form and I teach people how to use that in a much higher level where, you know, my favorite trick is taking someone to hundred.

  I'm out here in Las Vegas, so I'll take 'em to a, some crappy hotel with a 5,000 rooms like the MGM Grand. Give 'em a quarter, go and put it somewhere in the hotel and then I'll come back and go, yeah, good luck finding that one. Little do they know, they're a, a walking emanated state of all information that I see through their body and I just use them as a tuning fork and take me right back to the coin.

  They freak out and go, how is that possible? [01:08:00] I'm not touching them because that's a little archaic, sort of like ProGlide ish, but it's still muscle testing. You, you could put your hand on their, their wrist and use that as a, a more stiffer version. A, a, a higher level of mastery. I don't need that. And it's just a matter of conditioning.

  Everyone can be conditioned 'cause I teach my students all this, but furthermore, it's a, it's a learned experience. That's part of the alchemy. It's another level of sensory perception. It's not just limited to me. This, I would just say it really clearly. This shit has been around for thousands of years.

  It's been handed down from generation. Millions of people have used it before us. So why do I need to reinvent the wheel? I just use the mechanisms within the alchemy that are so powerful and they literally turn you into a superstar when it comes to. You know, consciousness, you are on another level,

  Michelle: it's so wild. I, I feel [01:09:00] like I need to have you back for not just one more, two more episodes. 'cause I feel like we're just scratching the surface and there's just so many things that we can talk about. Um, so future, you know, it might be good to, you know, come back and then have more conversations.

  'cause we're just really scratching the surface and, um, there's just so much to talk about and I love talking about this kind of subject. Um, it's just, it, it's so vast and I've always, I think even as, uh, somebody young, I always like resisted, I guess maybe, you know, it's my intelligence somewhere in play.

  Anything that. Defined me too much. And I think that that was just, and I get very, um, I notice that when my patients come and tell me that, like their doctors define them in certain ways, I get, I find, find myself. It's a trigger for me. I'm like, no. So, because I know that there's more, I just feel like there's something much more vast, and the second we [01:10:00] start to really confine ourselves, that's when we limit our expression.

  And, um, yeah, we can go on and on. There's so many things that I wanna talk about, but I, I would like to maybe have you back, but for people listening and who are really curious about everything that you've shared or interested in learning more about this subject matter and are also interested in working with you somehow, how can people find you?

  What are your offerings?

  San: Sure, sure. So I, I have a website called I, uh, i immortal DAUs rights.com. And through that I offer a number of different, um. Our chemical remedies for things, um, you can find what you're looking for, uh, all different types of stuff. And if you're, you're, you are, uh, in inclined to want to pursue more as a student, I have an application form, people can reach out and, you know, there's so much greater enriched [01:11:00] experiences that once you find yourself, there are no limits.

  And so you need to embody what we speak of and that requires a method. And the sooner you get that out of the way and you start just resonating on your true elixir, immortal, elixir resonance, magical things take place. And that's just through conditioning. I hate to break it to people. It's like all this powerful sensory perception will be yours.

  It's not limited to one person who has one gift. You just have to go through the conditioning process. And that's where people freak out because once they start to turn the energetic architecture on all bits are off. I, I attribute it. It's, it's quite simple. Imagine you're driving down the street in your car.

  I tell you to pull over to the side of the road. You get out of your car, but your, your car is still idling on the side of the road. Once you activate the ong [01:12:00] within yourself, the merging of way down and knee down, you have a process that doesn't require your participation. So that system is always on, it's always operating, it's always emanating, and that's where your resonance precedes you.

  When you walk into a room like the old expression, you are. Your, uh, reputation procedure, your resonance procedure, people just instantly get poured into that stream that you are emanating as your baseline default self as you acquire it, so you can go to immortal DAOs rights. Furthermore, you can, uh, uh, find, uh, me on the way one 20 six.com.

  I have a podcast way, 1 26, um, podcast on YouTube. If you're looking to up your. Chemical processing. You are not so interested in specific DAOs path. I developed an app through lasu that is basically, [01:13:00] um, a zero to a hero where you master your emotions in, uh, a, a short order within, there's two years worth of training, but most people that are, you know, someone that are sick and tired of being entrapped in their mind, prison, they'll have a mastery of their own emotions within nine, nine weeks, where you will literally move your emotions like an icon on a computer screen.

  That's where people want to be. They want to meet that moment and find that power, and it's all for you to discover. That's the exciting part, as I would always tell people, we have Yes, it's a, life is exciting when you, when you really, uh, free yourself, you know, outside of the confines and then see things as really working for us. 'cause I think everything kind of, uh, reflects to us what we need to open up. But, um, it's wonderful to have teachers like you and having really that method because I think that that's where people don't really know where to begin.

  Michelle: So, [01:14:00] thank you so much Ing. I really am excited to have you back 'cause I, of course, I have so many things to talk about, but we can only limit it to, you know, the time that we have. But thank you so much for coming on today.

  San: Thank you for inviting me. I was very, very grateful to be here.

Ep 372 When the Body Speaks: Trauma, the Nervous System, and Mental Health Recovery

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by   ( @drchrisbjorndal), a naturopathic doctor, author, and mental health expert, for a powerful and deeply honest conversation about healing beyond diagnoses.

Dr. Christina shares her personal journey through depression, bipolar disorder, suicide attempts, and recovery, and how those experiences shaped her integrative approach to mental health and whole-person healing. Together, we explore the profound connection between the mind, body, nervous system, and spirit, and why true healing requires more than symptom management.

In this episode, we talk about how trauma, nutrition, gut health, stress, and unexamined thought patterns can influence mental health and fertility. Dr. Christina also explains why labels can be limiting, how epigenetics shapes our health beyond genetics, and why cultivating self-compassion and safety in the body is foundational to healing.

This conversation offers hope, perspective, and practical insights for anyone navigating mental health challenges, fertility struggles, or the pressure to “fix” themselves instead of understanding what their body is asking for.


Key Takeaways: 

• Mental health diagnoses describe symptoms, not root causes

• Healing requires addressing the nervous system, not just the mind

• Thoughts directly influence physiology through stress hormones and immune function

• Epigenetics explains how environment, trauma, and lifestyle shape health outcomes

• Digestion and nutrition depend on nervous system regulation, not just food choices

• Self-compassion and self-acceptance are essential, not optional, for healing

• Hope and possibility are powerful forces in recovery and fertility journeys
  

Connect with Margaret Cali:

Website: https://drbjorndal.com
Instagram: @drchrisbjorndal
Facebook: Dr. Christina Bjorndal
Twitter/X: @drbjorndal
YouTube: Christina Bjorndal

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
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Connect with me on social:
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Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Dr Christina

  Christina: Thanks so much for having me.

  Michelle: excited to have you so I met Dr Christina on a summit that we did and I really, really connected with your message, so I knew I had to have you on 'cause I felt like we had a lot in common and we, you had actually walked people through a heart connection, heart and womb, and I was like, okay, she's speaking my language. But I know you also have a lot of, experience in this kind of field and the science aspect of it. And and I would love for the listeners to hear your origin story. 'cause I always like to start with an origin story. I.

  Christina: yes. it's important 'cause I, I actually haven't always been a naturopathic doctor and it's my own struggles with my mental health that brought me to become one. So in, in a nutshell, I was diagnosed with depression and that. I was prescribed medications and I then [00:01:00] actually swung into a psychotic episode while on those medications.

  And so then I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type one. And what I did with that is I was like. Well, that's not happening to me. Like, oh, what's this? And I'll, and I'll preface that with, I am adopted, so there is no ability for me to look to my left or my right to verify the truth of that. So I didn't accept the genetic theory, and I, and I do subscribe to the theory that genes load the gun.

  Yes, but lifestyle pose the trigger.

  Michelle: Hmm. I love that saying. That's a great way to say it.

  Christina: Yeah, it does. And so, I was walking through the world with this mask though, which is not good in the sense that I was, playing the role or persona that I had it all together. And, but yet I was really struggling on the inside. And then, I had a suicide attempt that left me in a coma with kidney failure and I was on dialysis and told I would need a kidney transplant.

  And that was really my, my origin story, if you will. Like, that was the rock bottom point for [00:02:00] me. And there was a, I was given a book to read about, by Maryanne Williamson called A Return to Love.

  Michelle: I love that book.

  Christina: Yes. And there's a beautiful quote about surrender and learning to, accept ourselves. And I realized that, goodness me, I'm walking through the world.

  With a lot of stigma and shame about this diagnosis that I don't really understand, and a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, had an eating disorder. And anyway, here we are. been on this journey of regaining my mental health, using a mind, body, spirit The approach I was using at the time was not, I just was medication upon medication and I wasn't getting better. That's really important to note, right? So anyway, so eventually I went back to school 'cause I was working in the corporate world and I reported to A CEO and I had a lot of stress and, and I went back to school to become a naturopathic doctor back to high school at 33.

  And then here we are.

  Michelle: So what got you into naturopathic medicine? Was that, I mean, part of [00:03:00] trying to figure out really what gets you better, more naturally, like, how did you specifically

  Christina: Yeah, so that same best friend, we gotta, we gotta really love our best friends or, so she was a nutritionist and we, we had gone to university together, we raced on the UBC track team together and she was said to me, Chris, why don't you see a naturopathic doctor? And, and so I did, and interestingly enough, her and I and another colleague were gonna start an organic baby formula business.

  And it was through the pursuit of that that I ended up at a Orthomolecular medicine mental health regained public forum. And I learned about a doctor named Dr. Abraham Hoffer. He's. Quite famous in Canada. He's passed away now, but he worked with Linus Pauling, who won two Nobel Prizes. One of them on his research on vitamin C.

  So [00:04:00] I, and he was a psychiatrist, but he was nutritionally oriented. So I went to both of these practitioners, my, my naturopathic doctor, and the Dr. Hoffer, a nutritionally oriented psychiatrist. And lo and behold. Starting their protocol. had my first year where I was free from depression and anxiety, which I had not had in the 15 years.

  Michelle: Wow,

  Christina: Hmm. 15 years. Prior to that, I would, 70% or more of my time was spelled spent in a depressive state. And then I was like, okay, there's gotta be something to what these guys are doing. And the key thing for me was. me two years to get in to see Dr. Larry Chan, and a long time also to get in, to get, not as much time but wait time anyways to get into Dr.

  Hoffer and he was 80 years old. And I'm thinking, my goodness, I know there's lots of people struggling here. Why is it taking so long for me to get help now? You, you know, when they, when I made [00:05:00] the appointment with Dr. Chan, I was like, they said it's two year wait. And I'm like, well, I'll make the appointment.

  I don't know if I'm gonna be here. You know, like,

  Michelle: Wow

  Christina: and indeed I did have a second suicide attempt, you know, while I was getting, trying to get myself landed and grounded in, in this is in some other way to support myself. And he was, he's a acupuncturist first and foremost, you know? So then I realized, you know what, I had a great job with paying very well and I wasn't happy

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Christina: Eventually, even when I became happy with the supplement support, I wasn't passionate about what I was doing. And so I wanted to make a difference in people's lives, and that's one of the reasons I made the change.

  Michelle: That's pretty remarkable. What a story. And I, you know, it's interesting 'cause I'm listening to you and I'm thinking kind of similar. I have a similar path. I mean, I didn't have, I didn't have it as.

  [00:06:00] Severe you know, like I, I, but I definitely suffered from depression and anxiety, like when I was younger and growing up and I had, I definitely had anxiety.

  I never even knew I had anxiety. Now I look back and I'm like, I had

  anxiety like I had fears and I. I even used to do things like a little bit OCD where I'd have to like tap things in a

  certain way which would mean that things are gonna go well versus not go well. And so I know that I had some kind of anxiety and I didn't feel safe in my body.

  I mean, and I, and I look back, I went and I went to an acupuncturist. One of the things I noticed was that not only were my symptoms, my physical symptoms resolving, but I started feeling better. Mentally. and then I also look back and I used to eat gluten and I went gluten-free and I found that I was less bloated, but then I realized like I'm less

  anxious on a gluten-free diet.

  So there's such a physical mental

  [00:07:00] connection you know, you're treating your physical body. But, and we had talked about this, and this is I think one of the reasons why I really felt connected with you and like. Really your background and how you approach things is, is that there is such a somatic aspect of the mind, you know, like the, the experience in the body impacts the mind so much more.

  And it's interesting because many people, I think just conventionally think that there is this separation, like the mind can't affect the body. But also the body can't affect the mind. So it's kind of this bi-directional relationship and really addressing it like you, you were saying physically and through diet actually made a difference on your mind.

  Christina: what a concept.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's

  Christina: and I think it's really lovely to look at the shift and the changes that have happened. So when I was initially struggling, struggling, we'll say starting in 1980, [00:08:00] you know, it's, that's been a long, you know, several years, right? 45 years if I'm doing the math properly, and to see the.

  Difference in, because there was, there was no conversation in 1980 about the microbiome, let alone any directional relationship. Right. Like, like you were saying back in 1980, it was deemed almost separate. You know, like we just were living from the neck up and we might as well just have little knees under our chins and, 'cause nobody was talking about,

  Michelle: This

  Christina: nobody's talking about the body.

  Right. And, and so, but thanks to the work of, people like Steven Porges and Bessel VanDerKolk and, Gabor Matte and, and many others, I wish I could name some women. I should. Let's name some women, like, molecules of emotion, Candace pert. You know, there's such, such advances now, so we understand that there is, it's bi-directional.

  So, and now I think the conversation should be in the research. If it's not, well, what, you know. Which microbes actually, 'cause the microbes [00:09:00] affect this way, and then that affects this way. So, and, and we don't really have to get caught up in, and this is where I get a little frustrated with, with Western science, and they're always so focused on what's the one cause or the one thing.

  And, and you know, we're multifactorial beings and so, know, if you think about a tree, it doesn't have one root, right?

  Michelle: a

  hundred percent I love that. I love that. Like that's such a

  Christina: A good visual, right? There's this massive ecosystem underneath the ground that we don't

  see. We just see this beautiful tree. Now, the, that, who knows the root system could be diseased, and that's an akin to wearing this mask that we walk around with a big smile on our face when we are, when we're thinking about awful, doing awful things to ourselves.

  But we have to be bringing these. Conversations into the open air about what's going on between here and here in terms of the thoughts or the emotions, and be able [00:10:00] to be vulnerable and authentic. And that is a shift that I, you know, we can thank Brenny Brown for that because I, you know, Oprah Winfrey because, oh, no, no, because back and again, 1980, boy, oh boy.

  You know, don't say anything. Don't tell anybody. That's what I was told actually by my psychiatrist. Oh, you know what, Chris, do not tell anybody that you have this condition because and, and so I'm like, well, what do you mean? You know, like, then I walked outta that, that office feeling bad and dark and awful and, and

  Michelle: like

  Christina: she, and rejected and like a dark, like, don't you dare disclose 'cause people are not gonna like you.

  And you know, wow. Like, that's awful. Right.

  Michelle: Yeah. And little did we know that I think that so many other people are feeling the same way quietly. It's like, you too. You know? Are you also feeling this way? Like, you know, and everybody's afraid to talk about it. And you were right. I used to watch [00:11:00] Oprah Winfrey and she really helped me a lot growing up because. She put a name to it. She spoke about it, and she spoke about these topics that a lot of people wouldn't speak

  about

  Christina: right. I mean, I remember when she decided to do, at the end of every episode, a bit of a conversation about the soul. She got a lot of flack about that, but she can pursued and it's important. Nobody was discussing the soul or the spirit or, you know, anything like that. So I think that it's really important that we understand that, you know, we as humans, yes, the physical level, don't get me wrong, I mean, that's where I started very important.

  But I'll tell you the one downfall with, with, i'm gonna, I'll take ownership of this. I wasn't disclosing to my doctors that I had an eating disorder as if you're a clinician listening to this, you need to be asking the right questions to the patient. And then it's all about creating that [00:12:00] safety in that therapeutic relationship so that the patient, even if you ask the right question, they will feel safe to answer it as well.

  And so the sup and the reason I wanna mention that is because I did start on a lot of supplements, but they were propping me up and filling the nutritional gaps from my horrible diet, right? So I was a, I was a vegetarian eating no vegetables, so I was a carpentarian and a sugar addict.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  yeah. No, that's true. It's true. I, I went through that myself and if you don't really know what to eat and you become a vegetarian, you can be, you can really deplete yourself

  Christina: big time

  on so many nutrients that are so important for these pathways to work in our body. So I really like, I really wanna emphasize that too, because. I think one of the bad reputations that the functional medicine industry has is over supplementing and, and as a naturopathic doctor, I am not wanting to do that.

  My goal is not for you to be [00:13:00] on these supplements. My goal is for you to obviously resolve the symptom picture that is presenting for you using modalities that are available to me. Not have you on 50 million supplements. That's not, that's not the end game here.

  Michelle: Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting that you talk about how like there's so many, we're so multifaceted and sometimes we do get so hung up on the studies, and of course the studies can give us a lot of information, but there's so much behind studies. I mean, there's companies behind studies.

  You don't know how it's skewed. I mean, there's so many other variables to the studies that it's hard to really decipher. Based on all of these different parts, while those parts can be really beneficial, I mean, there's one study that actually showed that, mental disorders were very much linked to the gut microbiome, and that's fascinating information.

  It confirms what we, you know, we're, we're looking into, but we get too hung [00:14:00] up on it. Then we stop using. And I know that you also have a spiritual perspective and, and that intuition, when we stop connecting to that intuition and stop acknowledging that we do have a spirit. And that's what I love about Chinese medicine is they do actually acknowledge

  the spirit of a person and that's part of the health. And so when we acknowledge that and see that there's something more vast, and yes, we can. Rely on studies, and yes, we can use it as close to the puzzle, you know, or pieces to the puzzle, but if we solely and completely ignore the aspect of us that is intelligent and that can connect to other things that have not yet been proven. Then that, I mean, can give us so much info. We can actually download information. I know this 'cause I'm a meditator. I know that I've downloaded information and every meditator will say the same thing. They understand that it's real. because you can't know [00:15:00] that until you're in that state of such deep receptivity that you're able to download information and it your body

  Christina: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the. The simple statement that I love to say to people is, well, who is the teacher of science? Like, who is the teacher of science and its nature? Right? And, and so you know, we, of course, but, but some of the things that we study, like for example, just before I came on this interview with you, I was researching for this, my new book that I'm writing about my, about my eating disorder journey.

  And there was a study about sleep and I, and I was thinking to myself. Wow. Like we really have to, we really have to sort of state the obvious here to people like,

  Michelle: This is

  Christina: did you need some sleep? Like, I'm like, okay. You know, so it just for me,

  Michelle: All you need is one really bad night of sleep and you'll know that you need sleep because of how you feel. You

  Christina: but I was like, how much money did they spend on this study? You know? I mean, of course, you know, [00:16:00] so sometimes I think. Really are we, do we really need to study everything under do you get what I'm trying to say?

  Michelle: It's true.

  A hundred

  Christina: but the fascinating piece, you know, of course the microbiome is very fascinating interest and interesting and, and a sidebar about that for myself is I did a year of antibiotics when I was 14 to treat acne and.

  Right. Yeah. And then my eating disorder started the year after, and then the me, and then the depression, anxiety, you know, it all, it all unfolded. Now is so interesting. And I think this just highlights the importance again, of asking the right questions. And one of them is, when do you think things started for you?

  You know? And in my case, I just said 14, but I'm gonna go back even further to the in utero experience, right? It starts in utero for people And

  Right. And if we have to bring in this idea that Western Medicine is trying to prove, probably right this second as we're [00:17:00] speaking of intergenerational trauma,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm

  Christina: there are studies about this done already, so

  Michelle: there are, and I think part of them were Holocaust and, you know how you have,

  Christina: well, even

  Michelle: our DNA,

  Christina: they did a study

  Michelle: The DNA would have

  information because we're evolving, so it, carries information so that you learn from your parents or whatever they had to learn, and sometimes with that learning comes the memory of

  Christina: right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the in utero experience is, is so important because when you were an egg in your, in the developing fetus of your mother, in her ovary, you were there. As a

  single cell egg, in, in your, her, in your grandmother when she was carrying your mother. So people, sometimes you have to slow down and get your head around what, what I just said.

  But it's, it's very important because I am adopted and I [00:18:00] have been so fascinated with this nature versus nurture argument, and because western medicine for. Many years, was very focused on the whole, the gene. Everything's about the genetics. And, and this is where, where I mentioned earlier that, you know, it's, it's actually epigenetics that's important.

  And the work of Bruce Li Lipin, bringing that to the forefront and concept of psycho neuroimmunology. And in my own case. Whenever you ask a question, and the first question I asked after that psychotic event, which was very, alarming to me, and, and of course the people around me was, why did that happen and how did that happen?

  And the answer I got was, well, it's genetic, nothing you can do. And I'm like, really?

  Michelle: Yeah

  Christina: No nothing because I don't, I don't wanna have, I don't really wanna experience that again, thank you very much. So there better be something else I can do other than the take drugs. 'cause [00:19:00] here we are, you know? And so I got told that there's nothing, nothing you can do, which means there's no cure.

  But I didn't accept that. And what, what breaks my heart is that right as we were talking, people are being told that right now in a doctor's office.

  Michelle: People listening to this, I mean, same thing, but on different, it's just

  different levels different types of

  Christina: And, and if we bring it to the conversation to fertility, how many women are told you're not gonna be able to conceive? And, and, and it's like, who are we to say

  Michelle: It happens all the time. Like I can't even count, I can't even count it

  Christina: I know. And that should not be like, I think as clinicians, our role is to bring. Hope and possibility and understanding of how the body works. And there is, I mean, this is, there's reasons and explanations for your, your symptom picture and your suffering, and we just, and if you aren't feeling better, I feel that it's because there's, we, somebody hasn't investigated, there's a [00:20:00] stone that hasn't been turned over yet.

  Michelle: I agree. I, I really do. I

  Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

  Michelle: And it's just a matter of hope. Hope in the possibility because I think even doctors need to have hope and the possibility for

  their patients and I think that when they don't it. Oftentimes does translate into the consciousness of the patient,

  Christina: Absolutely.

  Absolutely. Yeah.

  Yeah. So it's been, um, you know, a beautiful journey to not only be able to then regain my mental health, but also to be able to help other people with, whether it's their fertility journey or out of depression or anxiety, even bipolar disorder, whatever it might be.

  Because remember that these labels and my, book that I love to share about. Is called beyond the label. 10. Yeah. 10 steps to improve your mental.

  Yeah. And, and the thing with it is that the label explains a constellation of symptoms, [00:21:00] but it doesn't tell me how you got there.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Christina: explanation is always rooted in some earlier experience that predates the diagnosis.

  So it's, there's so much to us and there's, and that, that I'm saying that. Not from, for, for people to take it like, oh goodness. But to take it from a place of like, this is, this is where the answers lie, so it's the answer's there, we just have to figure it out. That's all.

  Michelle: And it gives a lot of hope, like I said, and it's, you know what I love about talking to naturopaths. Is that they're very similar

  minded I, their approach is very similar to acupuncturists, where we're always looking for

  that root So rather than saying this is a symptom, it just is what it is. There's, we're always kind of digging, trying to figure out.

  There's always, it's almost like a very, uh solution oriented field. And that's how I feel like there, that there is no one way to treat anything. And because I think that that is what. Gives way [00:22:00] to more possibility. If we know that there's not one way to treat anything and that not every person's the same, then there's less likely that we're gonna perceive our patients as a

  statistic

  Christina: That's right.

  Michelle: and and that's where we start to dig and dig and dig and take

  Christina: Yes. Yeah. And, many naturopathic doctors, depending on the school, they, they go to, and it's important that they go to a accredited program because I know that in the United States, they, not all states are regulated or licensed. So there are people that have done, haven't done proper programs, and, but in some of, like in my schooling in Canada, acupuncture is a modality that we are taught.

  And, are licensed to use. So, but not all the schools have acupuncture. some of that's a separate four year program,

  Michelle: Yes. Yeah, I have heard of that. but for that, you know, for the reason that there's just so,

  such similarities in the medicines and I think the big thing is how we [00:23:00] view the body as being so forgiving. We really understand that the body's incredibly intelligent and that the body is self-healing. And it's just asking for something.

  It needs something or it needs to remove something that's in the

  way And and so there's always kind of that almost detective work that we do to try to like unravel and figure out what's going on. And as far as, the mind body connection, what are some of the biggest things or ahas that you found throughout?

  And I know that this could be very vast, but like what are some of the big ones that come to mind?

  Christina: Yeah. Well, I first, I just wanna add on one thing to what you said about adding things or removing things, and one of the things that we talk about in our. Osteopathic medicine is obstacles to cure. And, and they're, you know, so an example of an obstacle to, to cure, and I'm not saying this from a place of judgment, I'm just, it's just an observation is, is actually I can share a, a about a case.

  I had this woman come to see me for depression and Lyme [00:24:00] disease but she was a very heavy smoker. And so at some point we got, you know, I worked, first and foremost was the depression and, and the Lyme. I wasn't very versed in Lyme. This is probably 15 years ago. Anyway, I found a colleague who was, and so she was helping her with that, and I was helping her with her mental health.

  But then at some point I had to say, you know, I need to have a conversation with you about smoking because this is, this is an obstacle to cure. And anyway.

  Michelle: Hmm. Yeah,

  Christina: Yeah. And she was, so at this point, she was very focused on the Lyme. And then I said, you know, I'm really concerned about this chronic cough here that you have going on.

  Could you please get that checked out? Because I didn't have, I didn't have access to diagnostics myself. I have to refer for that. Anyway, she got, so she, she went and she, she did a, chest x-ray and she had lung cancer. Yeah. And she died. so I remember saying to her like, we do not need to be focused on your Lyme disease.

  We need to be focused on, so this is, it's a very good [00:25:00] example of an obstacle to cure. And that that obstacle, obviously, it, it took her life.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Christina: So it's, it's a, a very empowering story to acknowledge that we, we do have to have these conversations about things and they're hard conversations because, you know, it, we we're going into the area of addictions now, and, you know, so, mm-hmm.

  Michelle: it's interesting you say that because like, what I find oftentimes is people get very, strict about their diet. They're strict about their supplements, they're strict about everything in their life, how to exercise, what to do, everything's a plus, you know, like down the line. However, though they're so focused on that, that they forget, you know, and I do think that there is an addiction to stress.

  Christina: Yes,

  Michelle: We don't realize that, but we can actually get addicted to

  stress hormones, and Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about this often. We can get really addicted to 'em. It can make [00:26:00] us feel like we're in control. It's a fake sense of control, but it's not

  real and it's not really helping us. So it's like we can do all of these other things, but until we address that. Foundation. That's kind of like the sabotage of everything else. We're not really

  Christina: that's right.

  Michelle: better.

  Christina: Yeah, I mean, I, I will acknowledge within myself as somebody who is this type a overachiever, perfectionist type that you described. I mean, I, I had to let her go a long time ago because it's like, okay. Uh, But you do speak to, again, a very important point that I wanna talk about in my, in my new book, which is, is this journey to ultimately.

  Acceptance and, and our industry, this industry of that, we were calling the health industry right now from a nutrition perspective, just that one modality. There is so much ad adversarial conversation going on. You've got carnivores on the one extreme and vegans on the other and everything in between.

  [00:27:00] And I, I said to my best friend, I feel like the nutrition industry has bipolar disorder. Like there's just so much swinging and, and so. The conversation that I wanna bring to the table is who's, who's actually looking at the reasons behind why you wanna have a perfect body and where's that coming from, and why are we not actually accepting ourselves?

  and are we creating more problems as clinicians by saying, cut out wheat, dairy, sugar, eggs, corn, inflammatory foods, and dairy. Are we, what, what kind of obsessiveness are we creating with? And I'm somebody who has been looking at this for a long time. So I went on a tangent to say, because in terms of Joe Dispenza, who I, I value and, love studying his work, I even had to say to myself, man, am I addicted to to drama?

  when my life gets steady, do I actually go looking for something to make it unsteady?

  That was a big [00:28:00] observation and, So anyway, I, we could talk, we, we probably are gonna have to have another call here because I'm like, we gotta go on that.

  So, but I wanna answer your question about the mind body relationship and what were some of the a ahas for, for myself, and there is so many, but I think the biggest one was actually after my, so I've had three suicide attempts in total. And the last one was getting to be long ago, you know, as we continue on in time.

  But it was in 2009, so it wasn't like it was, it wasn't last week obviously, but it was while I was practicing as a clinician, and I'm gonna mention this because this is, we, you, you work in the fertility space that it was in a postpartum state and, but it was so This conversation about mental health is important for every age group and every stage of our lives, but in particularly very critical in the postpartum window.

  And I'm gonna extend the window though, because I don't think 12 months. I [00:29:00] think at the 12 month mark when they say you're out of the woods, so to speak, you're not, you're just getting into the woods. You're just getting started. So I really think the first five years postpartum is when women struggle, not within the first 12 months.

  So I mean, you can struggle in that timeframe, but for me it was anyway, a little bit delayed, if you will. And then I know science, people listening might argue, we say to me, well that's not postpartum, Chris. But in my mind it really was, in that window. It was a very delicate, anyway, so my point being that.

  The person who helps me the most was a colleague, another, another naturopathic doctor, who was the first person to teach me that. I do not need to believe every thought that I think.

  Michelle: Mm.

  Christina: So your thoughts create neuropeptides. Your neuropeptides affect the hormone, the glands, which produce [00:30:00] hormones. Then if we're talking about the adrenal gland, that produces cortisol, but there's also epinephrine and norepinephrine and, and those are more neurotransmitter based.

  so let's just speak with cortisol, 'cause many people are familiar with that. That then feeds back up to the brain and says to the nervous system, stress or No stress, danger or safety, sympathetic or parasympathetic, and. So this is called psycho neuroimmunology, which is a fancy word to mean your thoughts affect your physiology.

  So when he said, so he taught me this four R approach, which is the first R is recognize what you're thinking. Like, take the thought out. If this pen represents a thought, take it out. Look at it and ask, are you serving me right now? Are you sabotaging me? Are you hurting or helping? Are you inner critic based or inner cheerleader, bully, or friend?

  Like What side are you on here? [00:31:00] What team are you playing for? You know, the stress team or the safety team? So most of my thoughts, if not 100%, 110% were inner critic, sympathetic, all about how, what a horrible human being I am. So then, so once you've recognized that you are having thoughts based in problematic thinking, then your next sec second step is to refrain from following them.

  This is where meditation is so helpful. So I'm not saying to suppress anything, but I'm just saying we don't carry on the conversation. We just set the conversation down and then we, the third step is we relax into the body. We take two deep breaths, we connect with nature, we get out of our heads, if you will, because.

  The egoic mind is a very busy place. It's busy in, in, in my head. It's very busy and there's a lot of traffic that's being directed, right? And it's like we need a little bit of a moment of a reprieve here. Just a little, little heartbeat of stillness. And you [00:32:00] get that if you give the egoic mind a job, you say, Hey man, look at that tree outside and then, oh, okay.

  The ego, it does ultimately wanna serve you. But the problem with it is, it's. Space in the past, often in protecting you from the pain of the past. And we don't need that belief anymore now in this present moment. And so by doing the breath, then the four step is to reso resolve to repeat those first three steps over and over and over and over and over.

  So when Dr. Hughes taught me this, I said to him, well, I, I'm gonna be doing this all day long, right? And he's like, perfect.

  So.

  Michelle: great

  Christina: it's

  a

  practice

  and just like we go to the gym, right, to, to get a nice toned bicep or do sit ups get a six pack, we need to go to spiritual gym.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Christina: Yeah. And so listen, and I remember saying to him, well, you're not gonna prescribe me some St.

  John War. Like, come on man. Like, you just want me to, what is this gonna, this, you know, I was super negative. I was even like, [00:33:00] this isn't gonna help me. Which in and of itself is a problematic thought,

  Michelle: Yeah. That's so interesting. It's all

  Christina: Yep. And so that process, which I've now expanded because I'm I, you know, I'm still this recovering overachiever, I call it the seven Rs now, but really the first four, those are the first four.

  So recognize, refrain, relax, repeat. The fifth step I add is related to what I was talking about in terms of psycho neuroimmunology. So we do wanna take that problematic thought we recognized and see if we can say something. Opposite. That is helpful because now this, I used to roll my eyes at people who would say, say to me, Hey, Chris, change your thoughts.

  Change your life, or do an affirmation. I would be like, roll my eyes and probably stomp outta the room because I felt like people were implying that I was intentionally causing my issues with. You know, on purpose, but this isn't the [00:34:00] case. We have a subconscious mind, and it is constantly dialoguing, and we're not always aware.

  But when you can bring that into your conscious awareness, then from that place you can create a new empowering belief that will carry you forward. And this is, you know, this is, you have to remember, I, I, when I'm listening to myself talk, I'm like, gosh, Chris, this sounds very simple. And honestly it is.

  However, I mean, I've been doing this for. Daily since 2009, committed to this practice. So, and I know that if you commit to acknowledging what you're thinking and seeing if you can shift your thinking. The reason why this is so important is it shifts your physiology and this is what you were talking about.

  So now we no longer are on the cortisol kick.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Christina: we're gonna be more on the parasympathetic. And I just wanna say one more thing and, and tie this up because we were talking about nutrition a moment ago. [00:35:00] One of my huge pet peeves about the health industry is everybody's focused on what diet is perfect for you, but nobody is talking about the state in which you are in when you're eating that food and digestion.

  My friend

  is a parasympathetic state and most of us are in a sympathetic state.

  Michelle: Totally. It's so funny 'cause my husband sometimes he will like run out to work and he works in the ER and he'll take something and eat it in the car. I'm like, don't do that. You gotta just, even if it's like wake up five minutes earlier, just give yourself time to sit down and eat. Because when you're doing that, so like, you know, the fight or flight or the sympathetic versus parasympathetic. Sympathetic isn't always necessarily like high stress, it could be just high alert. So driving, you're typically gonna go into

  sympathetic mode. That doesn't mean that you're like completely stressed out either, but you're like very focused. And what does that do? It, it shuts down the

  digestion like you just said.

  And [00:36:00] so it's not great to

  eat in the car

  Christina: No, And I think it's, I think this as humans, I mean, you know, the ER is a very busy, you know, it's a very busy place and, and it's also gonna be. You know, high, probably a higher amped up vibration wise, but it doesn't necessarily have to be stressful. Right. And I think, and the thing, the thing is that we've become used to, I think as humans, multitasking constantly.

  And you know, and the thing is that's not actually research shows, coming back to the research word actually shows that it's not, you know, it, it's better to be doing, if you're gonna be eating like, well, let's just eat

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Christina: Most people are chomp, chomp, swallow. They're eating on the run, eating while they're driving, going through drive-throughs and eating and digestion starts with when it doesn't start.

  When you put the food in your mouth, it starts you cooking the food, right?

  Michelle: yeah. Smelling, looking, seeing visual, like you could see it. It's so interesting 'cause I started noticing when we go to restaurants. Every [00:37:00] time my husband and both of us look at the food, look at the menu, we start to salivate. 'cause I, I, I hear him swallowing and I'm like, you're salivating too. Like as we're talking about the food that we're about to order and we're just reading it off the menu, we're

  starting to salivate So it's crazy. But it's like the mental, like as soon as we know we're about to eat, that's how we salivate. Which is, like you said, it's so true. Like being mindful

  with it Starts to make you salivate and why saliva is so important, because it has all these enzymes that help you digest. So it starts in, you

  Christina: that's right. But it starts with a sense of smell, that sense of signal up to the brain that then sets a signal on the vagus nerve that, Hey, guess what? Stomach food's gonna be coming, so let's get ready for it. But the thing is, when we just unwrap and then down the hatch, the, the stomach's like, Hey, what, what the hell man?

  What the heck? Vagus nerves, whatcha doing buddy? Yeah, whatcha doing man? You're fired. Right? So it's like, so, and then, you know, we have this [00:38:00] sequi of symptoms. Digestive people have bloating and, and digestion and heartburn and constipation. None of which we should accept is acceptable because none of it is.

  It's all, but, but what I find is people aren't focusing on what we're talking about. They're focusing on, oh, well eat more fiber or drink more water. And that may be so, absolutely. I'm not discounting that, but who's saying to you? Tell me about your, how you, how you, what your stress is like and, and how, how are you prepping your meals?

  Michelle: ' It's so interesting because people ignore that

  aspect of ourselves because it's hard

  to quantify Yeah.

  It's pretty fascinating. I could talk to you for hours.

  Christina: Well, I'll just have to,

  Michelle: I think I might have to have you back, honestly, because we can like get into all kinds of conversations. But you're right though. I mean really with digestion and I think a lot of these things I always find that people will not, it's so hard to really quantify, especially if you're already in this, a [00:39:00] mental state.

  Just like you said, like don't believe your thoughts, you

  become your thoughts You identify with your thoughts, you really believe that that is just the only way because you're already in it. And I'm not sure, was it Einstein that said you can't solve a problem with the same state of mind that

  created it

  Christina: That's right.

  Michelle: Well, I mean, if you're already in the state of mind, it's so hard to see. And so that's one of the reasons why somatic work can be so effective. And even just getting into your breath and your body sensations. 'cause you kind of like create a space. It's creating space between the thoughts and your body and your sensation being in the present moment. And a lot of what you're saying is really what Dr. Bruce Lipton talks about, about how our Petri dish becomes our blood and all the stress hormones that

  come with it. And just a quick note, for people who don't know what epigenetics means,

  because they're hearing it maybe for the first time, can you explain [00:40:00] why that's important?

  How our genes can.

  Be impacted by our

  Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So, the, this is interesting. So they've done studies on identical twins. So identical twins who are separated at birth due to adoption. So different environments. So if everything is genetic, these are identical twins. Genetically, you would expect them to have the same outcomes. Health outcomes, disease.

  Patterning conditioning, and they don't. And so this is where the research came from this, this concept that actually the genes are, the blue can be the blueprint, but they're not your destiny. And it's about the environment, IE, the trauma that you may have experienced, the nutrition that you may have been.

  Given the, the other piece is this chemical component, the environment. So there's many, many chemicals in the environment. In fact, in umbilical cord blood, they did a study [00:41:00] across 10 babies. They found 270 contaminants.

  So we are being born Yeah. Envi already with our environmental cups maxed out. The minute we, we, we exit the womb.

  Then we're, you know, we go into the, to the world. So what this idea of epigenetics means that, so the gene part is, like I said, it's the blueprint, but the switch that turns it on or off. So let's just say not the blueprint. 'cause that different, better analogy, the gene would be the light bulb, but the switch to turn it on or off.

  Is the epigenetic piece. And these are the environmental factors that I was just talking about. So the nurturing that you received, whether you were had a trauma, any form of abuse, even big tea traumas or even little tea traumas, like somebody stealing your lunch every day at school. You know, I mean, me, I, I was bullied in, in school.

  I mean, you know, they, I mean, bullied, okay. I say it was bullying, but, and then I'm shrugging my [00:42:00] shoulders. 'cause I'm like, well, was it, you know, basically they, they, they formed this, I hate Christina Club. But for someone with the high level of sensitivity that I came outta the womb with and the belief that I'm not liked or wanted, that was hurtful to me,

  Michelle: Yeah Well that's it's so rele. It's so, um

  Christina: relatable

  Michelle: Not uh it's, there's a word. It basically is like a, it, it's, not relevant, where it depends on your, like

  Christina: Well, actually, I'll give you a good example though about that. So that, that, that was, so that was, that was, this is actually, maybe, this is an example I would say in epigenetics. So for myself, because of my trauma wound and, and adoption is the only trauma where the adoptee. Is expected to be grateful. It's important to think about that.

  Now some people take offense to that quote. But it's important to think about that because, anyway, so my point is that my son had the same experience in grade, in the same grade as [00:43:00] I did. They started an I, some little girl who probably had a crush on him, started an I hate Noah Club, and he came home from school and he told me that, and I, and I, my heart sank and I was like, and immediately flashback to my experience.

  And then he said, but mom, it's totally fine. 'cause nobody joined

  Michelle: Oh, wow. It's like break the chain. It just

  Christina: and it didn't, it didn't phase him at all. And, and for me though, I would, I mean, I walked around that whole school year like with no friends, right. So it, it really, the impact that's a, that's a really good example.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Christina: two experiences. And epigenetics is, another way you could look at it is, is the influences that are outside of you that affect the inside of you, right?

  But when you ingest the food, I mean, that gets inside of you. And that can affect and chemicals and everything from, and this is where, [00:44:00] let's, let's look at, let's look at cancer. Here's another big subject that people ex, I mean, I hear this all the time with mental health and cancer. You know, well, so and so has it, so I'm gonna get it.

  And I'm like, no, you're not them. You're not your parents. And, and so, and a great example, my, so the family that I was adopted into, my grandmother and her siblings, there were six of them. Every single one of them. Had cancer and died of cancer every, all six of them. All six. No. So therefore, if it's all about genes, then you would expect every one of their offspring.

  So my mother and her first cousins would all also get cancer and die from cancer. Well, ask me how many of them have got cancer and died from cancer? Zero. So it's not all about the genes.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's not, and I, I actually think that the reason why, you will see things like [00:45:00] that happen where the kid, the kids get it or they have similar responses or symptoms. Is because of their environment as well. Their environment's the same like that. People don't realize that the trauma is the same.

  The culture that they're growing up in is the same, the food is the same then, you know, so it's, so people don't really think about that aspect of the fact that

  Christina: Like if it's run, you know, if there's something that's been going on for generations. Right. But this is where Yeah, we wanna, we wanna really understand that. Okay. But, but yes. What, what have you actually

  changed? Yeah. What have you actually changed? And is it really genetic though? Right. So it's, again, it.

  So, so very powerful because I also think it cause when we just, play the card, well, there's nothing I can do. It's just as in my genetic blueprint, then we, I sort of feel like we're being victims and we're defeatist, right? Because listen, I don't wanna be, I, I [00:46:00] really, and I don't mean this from, it's gonna sound negative the way I'm gonna say this.

  I didn't wanna be on a mental health rollercoaster, swinging from depression to mania and feeling very unsettled and like I'm on this rollercoaster for my entire life. Like, that to me, did not seem like an option. So I wanted to learn, well, how else can I navigate my mental health so that I can feel a little bit more, stable and.

  Living in a joyful way. And, and in the bottom, in the back of my book, I talk about 23 myths that I was told, things like I shouldn't have children because I'm gonna pass this condition on because it's genetic. Right. And I, I think, goodness.

  Michelle: That's insane way of

  living I mean, it's just so crazy 'cause you could say that about

  Christina: Right. Well, and the thing is, it's very fear-based.

  And when we were talking about sympathetic versus parasympathetic, and I was using words, different words to represent, two other words [00:47:00] I'd like to say are, or four other words is sympathetic. Another word is fear versus love and or ego versus soul. So we wanna always be asking the question, how can I move to to love?

  If we're talking about suicide and mental health, I mean, if anyone has had suicidal ideations or is contemplating taking their life, I can tell you they're the furthest from love that they're gonna than they're ever gonna be. And my job as a clinician is how do I guide them back,

  you know? And two important questions I ask every patient.

  And I love, you know, people that are listening can answer these for themselves. But a scale of one to 10 for both, 10 being the best, how much do you love yourself? The second question is, and, and the second one to answer is, how much self-compassion do you have? And I've yet to have somebody say nine outta 10, nine or more, even eight or more for both outta 10.

  I've yet to have a human, and it's been 20 years. I'm waiting for somebody, so,

  Michelle: It's amazing because of your [00:48:00] story, I feel like you can help so many

  more people than had you not gone through it. So it's so interesting how you don't wanna go through something like that, but because of that, it almost, it should you go down the path that you did. It initiates you into this incredible greater calling to help so many people.

  And I feel like you're doing God's work. I mean, it, I think when you answer that call, it really is. It's incredibly profound because when people are going through that and they're speaking to you, knowing that you went through that so that you're not just kind of sitting there with your

  degree just talking at them like they really understand that you walk through it, there's a different

  sense of trust and and knowing that you understand them on a deeper level.

  So I think that that's really remarkable.

  Christina: you. It, it's, I've had to answer this question. I've been on both sides of, of that suicide conversation and I've, I've had to answer the question, well, [00:49:00] why am I still here? and, and how come, and listen. I mean, I'm not, I'm not condoning that as a as an answer because, 'cause here's my view.

  Suicide is a temporary situation. It's a temporary situation. And, and, and, or sorry, like that, that the feeling that, that being in that dark cloud is temporary, but the decision to take your life is permanent.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Christina: So it's a permanent solution to a temporary situation. But I, I wanna, you know, emphasize here that it isn't the solution.

  And I think every, I just had a colleague who lost a, her, her son, at 18 la like two weeks ago now. Yeah. And, and I thank you. I mean, I just, I'm just dumbfounded because I, I work in this space. I, I, I dedicate my book to saving souls from suicide. You know, I'm getting a bit emotional and I'm like, I've met this person, this young soul, and I, it's sad, but at the same time, this is where my spiritual beliefs help me,

  with these very difficult things that are hard to have answers for.

  And, and I accept that I am, this is not [00:50:00] my, way to leave, you know? And, I would like to. I, I think that we, we need to be talking to young people more about what's really going on.

  And I know for me, it started at that same age. You know, my, my suicidal ideation started at the same age, 18, 19. There's a lot of pressure on these young people, and I don't think it's the pressure's any different than when we, we were going through it. I just think that I mean there are, the pressure's not different, but the society is different, you know, with these things.

  And I think, that, you know, your twenties is, is not a mental illness. Your twenties aren't a mental illness. Okay. But there's difficult, it's a difficult stage of life.

  Michelle: it really is. And I think that, you were talking about the phones and the, there's so many aspects. I mean, you know, the the.

  positive part is that you hear other people telling stories and you

  realize you're not alone. That's like the one positive about the time that we're living in, that it's no longer secret.

  And I know that it ha, it's same thing with fertility. Like 10 years ago, people weren't [00:51:00] talking about it as much

  as they are now. And then people are starting to realize, oh, I'm not the only one. There's other people going

  through this too. And I think that aspect of it is healing. On the other hand. We're constantly being bombarded with too much information.

  Our nervous system's going haywire. There's

  chaos It's almost a chaotic energy, and and we're not grounded enough. We're not able to like really get quiet and connect with our bodies the way, you know, the our bodies are able

  to help us and connecting and getting quiet and becoming more conscious and aware of our thoughts because we're so like sucked into

  this

  Christina: right.

  Michelle: which is. You know, our phones and devices and so yeah. I mean, I'm telling you, I can keep talking to you for hours. I think you're such a deep, minded person. You're really interesting to talk to. And you also have in Incre, like I just, I'm really amazed with how you're writing books about the, these things and really taking your information [00:52:00] and translating it to help so many people.

  I really admire that. I, I have to say, and. I know that I'm gonna probably have you on again because

  we can keep talking. But I really, really admire it and I really love, connecting with you as a professional

  and as as a human, as a person. And I would love to know, for the listeners, how can people find you?

  How can they find your

  Christina: Yes,

  Michelle: And uh

  Christina: yeah, I mean, and that's a good segue from us talking about phones, but basically, yeah, and

  Michelle: yes

  Christina: I mean, you know, this, it's, it's, it is definitely, I think you highlight such an important point that there are positives with some of, some of these advances, but yet we do have to navigate just like every other addictive substance in our lives.

  We, we really have to develop, you know, a relationship that's. In service of us truly. And so you can find me on those platform, you know, Instagram, Dr. Chris Bjorn and my website, you know, my last name is a bit challenging to spell, but you, you'll be in the show notes, right? Yeah,

  Michelle: It'll be in the show notes. Yeah,

  Christina: yeah, [00:53:00] yeah. So just, yeah, Instagram, Facebook, and, I just, that's it.

  That's all I can handle. I mean, I, you know, I think I have a YouTube channel, my website, and then the books they are available on online platforms like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and in Canada, indigo or chapters, and. Yes. I mean, so grateful if people would check them out beyond the label, the Essential Diet.

  Moving beyond a journal into Self-Discovery. And the fourth one is a compilation called From Shadows to Light, A Whole Human Approach to mental health.

  Michelle: it Is that the one you're gonna

  be working on What's your, your,

  oh okay That's another one. Amazing. I I think I was just so impressed.

  It's thank you. thank you. so much. Yes.

  Really

  Christina: And I, and I, I really, really love talking to you. I remember when we were doing the summit, I, and I was just like, when they asked a question, I'm just like, and you answered. I'm like, yep, exactly what, what Michelle said.

  Michelle: Yeah, you could, you could tell when you meet what I call almost like soul tribe people, like people that you feel [00:54:00] immediate connection with, you speak the same language. it was immediate that I felt that with you. And then as, as soon as you start talking and I was like, I really need to get her on the podcast 'cause she's really interesting and

  deep I'm like this is

  Christina: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was such a

  Christina: Take care.

Ep 371 From Burnout to Emotional Readiness: Healing the Fertility Journey with Margaret Cali

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Margaret Cali, a Fertility and Mindset Coach and founder of Cali Coaching. Margaret shares her deeply personal fertility journey, which began at age 25 and included miscarriage, PCOS, medication complications, emotional burnout, and years of feeling lost and disconnected from herself.

After stepping away from the relentless cycle of trying to conceive and focusing on healing her nervous system, mindset, and emotional wellbeing, Margaret went on to conceive successfully through IVF at age 40. Her story is a powerful reminder that fertility is not just a medical journey, it is an emotional, mental, and whole-body experience.

In this conversation, we explore what burnout during fertility really looks like, why emotional support is so often missing from fertility care, and how rebuilding your inner world can transform not only your fertility journey, but your life. Margaret also shares the tools that helped her heal and introduces her RISE Method, an emotional readiness approach designed to support women at every stage of trying to conceive.


Key Takeaways: 

• Fertility struggles affect the nervous system, identity, and emotional wellbeing, not just the body

• Burnout can block your ability to receive, restore, and reconnect with yourself

• Emotional healing is not time wasted, it is foundational to fertility and long-term wellbeing

• Small, consistent shifts create powerful transformation over time

• You don’t have to carry the emotional weight of fertility alone

Connect with Margaret Cali:

Website: https://www.margaretcali.com.au
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/margaretcali.au
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MCaliCoaching
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/margaret-cali-4bb936188/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@margaretcali
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@margaretcali
Email: mcalicoaching@gmail.com

To apply for Margaret’s program, click here.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Margaret. I am so excited to have you on.

  Margaret: I'm so excited to be here, Michelle. Thank you for inviting me on.

  Michelle: Of course. So Margaret is, um, really somebody who I absolutely love and have the pleasure to work with as one of my certification coaches certified, um, the wholesome fertility coach, and she's just one of the most nurturing sweet. Souls, uh, that I had the pleasure to meet. And I would love for you, Margaret, to share your story and how you got into fertility coaching.

  Margaret: Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for that warm introduction. Well, my fertility journey is quite a long standing one. I started to try and conceive at 25 and like [00:01:00] everyone else thought it's gonna happen straight away. And it actually did. I fell pregnant straight away, but I miscarried. And then people were saying, oh, it's normal, you know, to miscarry.

  Um, but I felt really a lot of pain during that time, like anyone else with a loss, Then I tried to conceive again after a couple of months and I conceive. And you know how you wait a year, you go to the doctors, they say, wait a year. So I waited a year and still nothing happened. So then I went to explore what was happening, and that's when I eventually got diagnosed with PCOS. That also led to the gynecologist giving me medication that led to me, um, getting a growth where I [00:02:00] had to have, um, it removed and it was a huge growth. So basically it was just a cyst.

  Michelle: A cyst. Okay. Do you remember what medication was? Um, maybe Clomid.

  Margaret: it was climate.

  Michelle: Okay.

  Margaret: but later on then at that stage, was already depleted, but I, um, decided to go and get a second opinion. Uh, you know, sometimes you have to follow your gut. And I went to get a second opinion and the first thing that the other gynecologist said to me was, have you had your husband checked as well? Oh, my husband was with us. Um, have you been checked and. We said no, being sort of ignorant to the fact that obviously both parties should be checked and then when my husband got checked, he had issues as well.

  So that [00:03:00] was, you know, then discovered.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: Basically, um, by that stage. So, you know, it was years that had gone by because I was on ComEd for quite a long time trying to conceive. 'cause the doctor said, I don't know why you're not falling pregnant because you should be. Um, 'cause you didn't see any other issues. And

  Michelle: um.

  Margaret: I reached a stage where I basically was burnt out. Um, I felt totally, um, by many other factors. Like, um, I was trying to emotionally deal with not falling pregnant 'cause I wanted to be a mother more than anything

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: like most of us have. And then obsessed over the fact that I wanted to fall pregnant.

  And of course there's all those issues of everyone around you falling pregnant

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.[00:04:00]

  Margaret: You can't conceive, and so you get into a deep depression as well. basically by this stage also, my husband was trying to deal with was happening. I was trying to deal with what was happening and our relationship. Was having a breakdown as well, because I couldn't communicate with him. He wasn't communicating with me. He felt he was supporting me because not to bring it up and I wasn't talking about it. 'cause I thought by that stage I was to blame. I was the person that caused this, you know, all those feelings of, um, disillusionment and. You know, feeling just totally down.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: that's when um, I met someone, his name was Valentino. He was a [00:05:00] drug and alcohol counselor, and he straightaway identified that I was in that stage of burnout and said, you know, he sort of started to guide me and say to me. You know, you need to take a day at a time.

  You need to really, um, your feelings. And so he guided me with all this emotional, um, emotional, um,

  Michelle: Support.

  Margaret: support, sorry, I couldn't

  Michelle: Um, really quick, um, just so people know, like. She didn't go in there for drug and alcohol for herself, just so people hear because, uh, drug and alcohol. Yeah. She went for somebody else and then realized that she needed a little bit more nurturing.

  Margaret: yes. I went, um, I went to, um, get some information for a friend and then I found out when I [00:06:00] was there, he sort of picked up

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: was. At a level that I shouldn't be, and he just started talking to me just. me some really good tips on how to rebuild myself, and then I realized

  Michelle: a guardian angel.

  Margaret: this anymore.

  So that was really good 'cause that stopped me continuing on this rollercoaster of trying to fall pregnant

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: realizing that my nervous system was totally shambles and I was totally burnt out. I couldn't fall pregnant even if I tried, because basically I had to even give up work at the time because I was feeling, physically, mentally, not well.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: basically it was like total burnout.

  Michelle: Yeah, I mean, um, sometimes too when you're in [00:07:00] that, it, I, I really, I think that it's just so telling that this whole story of how you met your guide really, and because, because I feel like when you're in that kind of deep, deep, dark place. You're the last person to recognize it on yourself. You, you think that everybody else needs help.

  And you went actually to get help for somebody else, not even for yourself. And it's interesting how Valentino was it.

  Margaret: Yes, that's correct. Was

  Michelle: recognized it in you and you didn't even recognize what you needed at the time for yourself.

  Margaret: no.

  Michelle: And so this is kind of, I think the key thing that you're saying that I feel like is so important is that.

  When people get to that place, because the mindset aspect of it is invisible. It's abstract. It's, I always say it's, it's like the sneaky little thing that nobody even realizes impacts your nervous system, [00:08:00] impacts you on every level, and it's, it's sneaky because you're already in that mindset. Therefore, it's very hard to recognize yourself or to see yourself and see.

  Yeah.

  Margaret: And I was in, you know, survival mode. I just was like a robot. I would just do the daily things every day, but I. I, I was all also about the guilt. You know, all the

  Michelle: Yeah. The shame, the guilt. Yeah.

  Margaret: the guilt, um. So I think that like him coming into my life at that time was perfect because I don't know what would've happened if he hadn't. And that made me, he slowly made me realize that I needed to stop this, you know, rollercoaster of trying to fall pregnant just work on myself like. on myself [00:09:00] to reset myself, but to

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: rediscover the person I had lost because I had totally lost Margaret. I was a

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: that I was, when I started trying to fall pregnant.

  I was, I, I, I couldn't even, oh, I don't think I would even recognize myself 'cause I was totally a different person. But on the outside I showed everyone I was fine.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: on the inside I was totally, um, destroyed. Yeah.

  Michelle: That's sad. It's sad to hear because you go through life and you're not fully living. You're like walking around, you know, pretending everything's fine, but you're not really truly living.

  Margaret: And that's why I feel that if people can tell their stories, then other people can understand that. They're, they're, they're not, they're, uh, you know, it's, it's basically what they're going through [00:10:00] is normal, at the same time, they continue on that path, it's not gonna help them fall pregnant. Because then when I did my, you know, whole holistic, like, like I worked on my mind, my heart, everything, and my body. Went into IVF, then decided to try IVF at the age of 39. I fell pregnant in with my first go, so,

  Michelle: Yeah. Amazing.

  Margaret: truly believe that was because stopped and really healed.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: Because a lot of women just go from, you know, having, 'cause I had even more, uh, more than one miscarriage. But they keep going until keep going because they feel, they just have, they have, they've lost time. But

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: time that you spend [00:11:00] healing and rebuilding your mind, your body, and, and your soul,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: then you will. able to fall pregnant because have healed. if you don't do that, then obviously we know from research that stress plays a big part in also not allowing you, your body to receive a new life. And to be honest, if I had received a new life. The, the depleted Margaret, how could I be a good mother as well, because I was so depleted. How could I give what I needed to give to my child? Whereas having had that time,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: I've enjoyed my motherhood and being able to give my son everything he deserves.[00:12:00]

  Michelle: Yeah, and you really touched upon, I like, I love the fact, not love because it's not, it's not necessarily a good thing, but I think the word just is so soothing that you use as burnout, like, because I think that that is really what a lot of people I see, you know, I see every day at work. They're, they're literally coming to me burnt out and they just, uh, and I remember one specific.

  Patient of mine saying, you know, I'm not coming here for myself. I'm coming here for the baby. And, and then I immediately recognized, wow, we really need to turn this around. And I had to talk to her about that. And there was a point where she really took a break from everything rebuilt herself. Kind of like how you figured that out.

  And I feel like, you know how they say there's, there's steps and stages to, to things like grief. There's stages to a lot of different things in life and I feel like there's also fertility stages. Where you go through that and then you go through trying to, you know, do everything that you could possibly [00:13:00] do to make it work, and then you find yourself burnt out and drained, and then you, you know, somehow, I naturally, people start to realize, okay, well how much, how long can I sustain this?

  How long can I go through this in, in the direction that I'm going without having any self care in this? Process and then finally realizing, wow, I really do need to like nurture myself back to healing because I think eventually you, you do realize that I think it is just unsustainable otherwise.

  Margaret: Yes, exactly. But I, my, the reason I also like really wanted to become a coach and to make the changes and to give my voice and to also let other people understand that, you know, they're not alone. People understand and there is a way to, you know, go through this process feeling calm and confident, [00:14:00] and know that you have, you know, um, yourself fully. You know, in tune with your body, your soul, your mind, your heart,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: was because I realized there was such a gap.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: that's why I wanna get my voice out there too, because, you know, um, going through fertility is not just medical. emotional

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Margaret: enough support in the emotional part,

  Michelle: you're right.

  Margaret: really passionate about that because I, you know, even people that I, I speak to that are, you know, embryologists. even realize there's a gap. And

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: a gap, but they, you know, the medical doctors and everything do a great job,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: this massive gap and we need to also educate others about, you know, people that ha are going through fertility to [00:15:00] understand, you know, it's been linked to like going through a divorce or a death.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. And even cancer. Cancer diagnosis. Yeah.

  Margaret: we need to put that in, you know, the same care as

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: things that we put in the care, you know, and that's my mission, is to get that message out there that we really need to support people that are going through fertility with emotional support That's so important.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: just medical, it's emotional as well.

  Michelle: It really is, and you have a very, uh, you just have a knack for it. You, you're very nurturing by nature and you have that ability, and I think that that's not something that you can really teach anybody. I think that's some something that people have innately. Is, uh, having that compassion, having that understanding, and I think that that is something that is very much needed is people just wanna be heard, they wanna be seen, they wanna be [00:16:00] validated.

  They wanna feel like they can really rely on somebody that understands them. It's very hard because a lot of times in the communities, they don't feel. Understood, because they see, just like you said, people around them getting pregnant. So people don't really fully understand what they're going through, and many times they're going through it in secret and don't really feel comfortable telling people what's going on.

  So it could be very isolating time. A person's life. And so going back actually to your journey, I'd love to hear what was it specifically, or what were some of the things that you did that you really felt brought you back to life or brought you back to a place of grounding?

  Margaret: Yes. So basically, um, I did a lot of reading and discovered the, the importance of the mind

  and your mindset [00:17:00] and how you have to change your deep feelings to understand yourself. So re like resetting yourself as well and understanding yourself. And going back, I found. To me, like, it doesn't mean everyone's got different ways, but I started journaling and that was a real, um, it gave me a lot of peace, like journaling, being

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: my feelings and just putting everything down, even if it's, you know, 'cause I mean. If things are happening, like it could even be a best friend that said something to you that's really upset you your family as well. 'cause it's cultural as well. Like some families just are pushing, you know, um, telling you things like relax and, and, and things that are not working for you. So journaling was really good. I [00:18:00] also, um, found that, um. Things like obviously talking to Valentino that understood. Um, so sometimes you need someone that knows the space, even though he wasn't in the fertility space, he understood how to help people going through trauma. Or going through something. So being able to speak to someone and he taught me that you express your feelings, you say what you feel, you don't leave it inside your body, you actually are able to talk about it.

  So that was good, like being able to express your feelings openly

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: and breath work as well. 'cause the breathing really helps as well.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: Those, those things really started to help. But also the knowledge of, you know, um, the mindset was, um, [00:19:00] like I read a lot of Louise Hayes and Dr. Wayne Dwyer, I just really related to it and it was like they were speaking to me like they understood me finally.

  'cause um, even though I had a lot of love and support around me. I couldn't make the connections. I couldn't get that support. I felt totally alone like

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: feel alone. So being able to not feel that feeling alone.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: Is a big thing to releasing. So being able to release all those fears, release all those negative energies and turn them into something po positive. The other thing that I think really helped was the gratitude.

  Michelle: Yes,

  Margaret: Like being

  Michelle: there is science behind it actually.

  Margaret: yeah. Write down what I'm grateful [00:20:00] for. Um, and also turning around. Not just seeing my life as just having a baby, but seeing my life as who I am, my

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Margaret: what I valued,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: able to put that back into my life because you get so obsessed with trying to have a baby that you don't worry about anything about yourself.

  Michelle: Yep.

  Margaret: you actually lose yourself. So being able to then put back

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: the things that light me up? What are the things that make me happy? And then start to implement those things little by little. It's not big changes, it was just slow progressive changes. And then I started to shift.

  Michelle: Yep.

  Margaret: to shift my mindset, my ideas, my thoughts. It didn't mean I didn't want a baby, and it didn't mean I wouldn't [00:21:00] have a baby. It just meant that I needed to be who I'm supposed to be to bring that baby in. that's basically the major shift. the kind of, and like I said, step by step and Valentine, you say one day at a time, and I

  Michelle: Yeah, it's true.

  Margaret: a time. just do a little shift every day. So even if it was like. I was, um, getting down and, and probably eating the wrong foods, if it wasn't just changing my whole diet. It might've been just implementing one thing every day to change. my food to make me feel better, to give me more energy.

  'cause I didn't have energy as well. So

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: kind of things. So I think it's very, um, personalized. So I think everyone has to find [00:22:00] their core reasons as well, their core values, and then build from that.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: your basically awakening. Everything that has died. I

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: really, but you are actually seeing like your identity, who are you and what are you wanting out of your life, you know, and focusing then back to yourself.

  So filling your cup

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: it's. So

  Michelle: 100%.

  Margaret: filling your cup and then loving and nourishing yourself by doing like the breath work, the journaling, um, the emotional release, whatever ways that helps like. I found walking. That was for me, I found walking the sunlight and I used to love going to the beach and just listening to the waves.

  Just those little things. Just, um, personalizing it for you [00:23:00] to put joy back into your life. Yeah. That kind of thing. And also yourself time for compassion, like. am I treating myself this way and a lot of rest? I, and then when those things happen that I was doing slowly, I could rest because I was always awake and, and, you know, why?

  Why aren't I falling pregnant? And all those? And self-sabotaging yourself all the time and then changing your words was another one. So instead of, you know, like reframing, so instead of saying, I'm useless, I'm hopeless. You know, changing those words that you say to yourself that destroy the, destroys you as a person, basically. I think those things were the main things initially that I started doing, [00:24:00] and as I grew in more understanding. was like, it was like a, a wheel that turned and I just added more and more and I built myself up to the level that I felt good again. You know, and I had joy in my life and I could, you know, contribute to life. Whereas before it was just surviving life. That was a survival mode that I

  Michelle: So interesting how you say that, because I always talk about it. I mean, really like. How our nervous system functions. It goes, it's kind of like a, it teeters between survival or, you know, look the sympathetic, which is con considered the fight or flight. It's not always just fight or flight. It could be very alert and it's part of what, what we need, you know, it's part of, it's a very necessary aspect of ourselves.

  Um, it's what gets [00:25:00] stimulated when you're driving and when you're up, when you're focused. It's a hyper focus, but the big thing is that it needs to shift from that to the rest and digest the parasympathetic. It almost sounds like, um, kind of like we're putting a judgment on it, like a fight or flight, but it could be sympathetic.

  It could be also very focused if it's done correctly. If it's done in a way that's balanced. And then the rest and digest is us being able to let go and kind of move away from this hyper focus of whatever's in front of us and allow us to get into a state where we're able to digest. And it, it's more of a growth aspect.

  And what you were saying really reflects that. It, it's where we can create the body becomes more creative, more easy, more flowy, more um. Imaginative. We go into the kind of like more space and we allow ourselves to, in a sense, kind of float, you know, and be held. And so there's that [00:26:00] doing versus receiving aspect of ourselves.

  And like I said, there's not, like, one is bad, one is good. You know, we, we tend to shift from one or the other. However, when we get to. Set on one or too much in one state. And most of us, when we're going through very stressful times in our lives, can find ourselves in a survival mode. And when we're in this constant perpetual survival mode, it will deplete, it will zap your energy.

  And as we know, excels, um, sperm cells. Mitochondria is really important. The mitochondria is the really the powerhouse of the cells. And the reason why egg cells, for example, have so much mitochondria compared hundreds of thousands more compared to regular cells in the body. It it, there's a reason nature doesn't make mistakes.

  It doesn't just randomly do things. It does it so that it sets it up [00:27:00] for the energy it takes to create new life. And if your energy is being zapped from all over the place. How in the world is it gonna be able to create new life? And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know. If you're zapped, you could feel it.

  Your body's so intelligent, it speaks to you all the time. You feel drained because your body just wants you to sleep, your body wants you to rest so that it can recharge. And that's, uh, you know, it's like our phone battery. It's the same thing. I mean, we see it like it just doesn't function optimally if it's on a low percentage.

  Margaret: Yeah, definitely, definitely. And if you're not calm, like how can you, you know, receive the, you know, the new life that you want in your body? So it's all about like being able to shift it from, you know,

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a restoration.

  Margaret: the restoration part and being able to receive. Yeah, I

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: agree in [00:28:00] what you're

  Michelle: And I think that what you said was really important. You said one day at a time. It's less overwhelming that way, and I think that that's the key thing. You know, I feel like a lot of people go through, they almost feel pressured to relax. That's like an extra pressure that people feel like, oh my God, now I have to figure out a way to relax.

  And I have to, so it's kind of all these extra pressures that people feel. Even something, it's like counterproductive because it's kind of like, how can I relax if I feel pressured to relax? It's just all of these, and then the, you know, there, there's the judgment, you know, oh, you could just relax and you're gonna be fine.

  And, you know, the judgment, the, the feeling misunderstood. And it's, but it's true. People say it a lot. It just, uh, it doesn't get, it just keeps happening, you know? So. So those are the things that people feel like, well, how do I do that? And I think that you saying that and kind of naming that like one day at a time feels so much less [00:29:00] overwhelming than to think about all of it at once.

  Margaret: Yes, exactly. And you know, thing that we're trying to change is that women shouldn't have to carry this emotional load alone. They should be able to get support so that they can do one day at a time. You

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  Margaret: you know, fertility is a whole person journey. It's the body, the mind, the heart, the nervous system, all of that. And when women understand how they can, you know, provide the, the care needed for. For your body, your mind, your heart, and your nervous system, they're naturally gonna feel calmer. They're

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: going to be able to deal with things that happen in a

  Michelle: Right.

  Margaret: way than they would've if they didn't have those tools and strategies.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: about having those tools and [00:30:00] strategies, you know, in your toolkit that

  Michelle: Yep.

  Margaret: just pop out when you need. And it's just like, even the breath, like just doing that simple breath.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Margaret: can just calm you. Like,

  Michelle: it's true. It's an immediate hack. It's the best brain hack ever. Um, that will, that is your, your light switch to shift your nervous system right there then and there is your breath.

  Margaret: And just having those in, you know, being able to use them when needed,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: use different tools because we're all. And you know, some people might like to visualize or meditate, which are also great tools, but obviously each person will find the tools that will really help them through this journey.

  Michelle: What would've, what would it have meant to you to find a fertility coach on [00:31:00] your journey?

  Margaret: Oh my goodness.

  Michelle: Looking back, because back then, I don't know if they, it's more of a recent thing.

  Margaret: They didn't have, um, I was just blessed that I met Valentino because he had tools and strategies that he gave me, but. I must admit, even though I went through the process, and of course it took me so long before I, you know, restored myself, I think if I had a fertility coach, it wouldn't have taken me four or five years to do that.

  I think I would've been able to do that. Um. Quicker, but also being able to have someone that totally knew, could see me and understand me, knew my

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: because had been through it or

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: you know, the processes and everything. And I also think by having that fertility coach, like. [00:32:00] I know that I would've been able to go, like I said, go through the process a lot quicker and that's why I wanted, I wanted to become a fertility coach and left education to do that because I knew that you can have these tools and strategies and really it can change your life. It changed mine. It changed mine, and I'm so grateful that had met Valentino. But I know now that if I was going through, you know, fertility issues, I, that would be the first thing I would get is a, coach to help me, um, guide me and give me these tools to get through, um, the journey in a peaceful and calm way,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: Because everyone's journey is different. It doesn't mean that you have to go [00:33:00] through it bump by bump, by bump, bump. You know, you

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: like go through it smoothly.

  Michelle: Yes, it's true. It, it is true. And everybody's different. Every journey is different. Um, completely. And everybody has, even though there's similar, um, things that people can relate to there, it's such an individual, uh, path. It's an individual way of seeing things, individual perspective, a hundred percent.

  Margaret: And I also feel that, like I didn't realize the holistic part of it. So thank you for doing your course, Michelle. 'cause that was just fabulous. I, it just spoke to me because of my journey and when I was doing your course, I'm going, oh my goodness, this is exactly what I need. You know, this is exactly what's going to be able to help me to help others.

  It was just really aligned to my beliefs

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: and. [00:34:00] My beliefs came from going through that journey, so you know, I would vouch for it. A hundred percent. And also really knowing that the holistic part is about looking after your whole self, not just thinking, oh, I just have to, you know, um, do this part. It's about really deep work, like it's

  Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent.

  Margaret: your heart, and, and just learning more things about how everything is connected.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Everything's connected and this is why, um, you know, Chinese medicine really looks at the person as a whole. They don't, uh, look at parts or just symptoms or, you know, it's, it's really mind, body, spirit. Uh, it's all of it's important. Nothing is not important. So it's, even if you're very spiritual, but you're eating junk food or if you're eating really perfectly felt healthy, but you're really hard on [00:35:00] yourself.

  So it's kind of like addressing all of those different aspects. And believe it or not, I have a lot of people in the doing the course that are actively on their fertility journey, helping themselves and others at the same time, which is pretty amazing, really amazing that they're, you know. To do that when you're going through it yourself?

  Yeah,

  Margaret: And I agree because your course covers, you know, the holistic side of it and some co like, uh, you know, some courses just look at. Fertility in general medical, but again, that's not what I was,

  Michelle: yeah, yeah. The whole, yeah.

  Margaret: it is, not just, you know, to know what, you know, what medication to take, or if you've got PCOS, you should be doing this.

  You know,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: each condition it has got different, it's yes. knowledge is important of course, 'cause it changes what you do and [00:36:00] how you are gonna feel, but it's not just that. So I

  Michelle: And it's also, uh, you, it's you, Margaret as, as your individual because, um, how you are taking it, how you're translating it, and how you're passionate about it, because that's something that a person can't really be taught. It's a, that, that passion that comes through you, that wants to help others, that to help them on things that you've been through.

  To alleviate some of the difficulties and some of, you know, the extra, uh, weight they're carrying, you know? So that is a hundred percent you and I I wanna say that because that is something that you have and you, what I love about wor like the time that I've had working with you, and you are just a really genuinely.

  Such great hearted person. I, you don't meet a lot of people like that, that are genuinely like wanting to help people like, like a really, [00:37:00] really authentically,

  Margaret: Oh, thank you, Michelle. That means a lot to me. You, um, I, I mean, I, if I can even change one person's pathway make it smoother and calmer, it's, um, it definitely is. Um, what I, you know, would like to do is to help other people. 'cause I really feel that if. I've got a motto is embrace the journey.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: know, embrace it, transform with purpose and the purpose part that you are using the tools and strategies and empower your future by doing that. 'cause I feel that, um, through what I went through, basically that pathway was what I. know, I felt at the end I did, and I [00:38:00] felt like that it did empower my future, um, for the positive, um, ways, you know, that's why I want to, you know, um, and that's why I worked on really coming up with a program that could do that, like. Holistically.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Talk about the fertility godmother, how you stepped into that role.

  Margaret: so, um, obviously I don't want people to spend five years trying and that's not necessary anymore because we do have the tools and strategies. So I've, um, done a holistic program that, um. Aligns your mind, body, and heart and soul. And it's basically, um, the purpose of it is to give you [00:39:00] emotional steadiness for your body trust and inner safety. Um, so whether you are, know, feeling that you, it's good if someone's gotta go through treatment like IVF to do this beforehand, or if someone feels that really they're at, you know, they're feeling, a little burnt out or. Feeling that they're going down that rabbit hole. So what I do there is, um, I do two weeks where we awaken.

  So we listen to the story, we look at the values, we look at the person's identity. We also do the cycle awareness so that their understanding their bodies more, so they're really awakening to their emotional patterns. Any burnout. they might have. So basically, it's really important for people to be aware about what's happening to their [00:40:00] bodies and their minds, so that that's the first two weeks. Then the next two weeks is Love and Nourish. So what we do is we do breath work, we do We look at other, uh, strategies that they might put into place slowly into their, their routines to help them steady their, um, look at rest. Compassion and we also look at nervous system rituals, so to help them

  Michelle: Love that.

  Margaret: system, which is really important. Then week five, we do mindset. 'cause we mindset changing the mindset is really important. We do belief work and we also do visualizations. If obviously the program is. Structured to suit the individual person.

  Michelle: So this is all one-on-one.

  Margaret: Yeah, it's [00:41:00] all one-on-one and that's important because it has to fit with, you know, their belief systems, what they feel will help them. Then in week six we do grounding, so we do like stress triggers regulation, and we really look at the support because I feel. That the support system they have around them. So especially like partner work and things like that is really vitally important. And I know it's important because of how my marriage broken and had to go through repair like before, you know, during that time.

  And that's also why it took such a long time before I went through IVF as well because everything was broken.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: we don't wanna get to that stage. We want to make sure that we have those support systems that we are communicating in a way [00:42:00] that is supportive with your partner or whoever that might be, or a friend, whoever the support system is. Then we do, um, week seven, we do like nurture. So we look at, um, boundaries as well. So not just relationships. So

  Michelle: important.

  Margaret: boundaries are really, really important because we need to put those in place

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: because sometimes, um, people can't understand. So you've gotta put those boundaries

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Margaret: we can, we do align, we do alignment plan.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: we do like a future vision as well. And the alignment plan is individualized for that person

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Amazing.

  Margaret: by that, by week eight, they've already got like a flow through of what they're doing and they see the shifts.

  Michelle: Yes, the transformation

  Margaret: along [00:43:00] the way. So that's

  Michelle: and I have to say she's pretty much giving this away for way under. It's, I mean, this is an incredible opportunity for whoever's listening because, um, if you wanna take it from there and, and tell them this and insane opportunity that people can.

  Margaret: Hmm. Yes. So I basically wanna offer it to a, a select number of people, obviously, that I can cater for. 'cause it is a one-to-one program and I'm offering it for $200. Um, because I, obviously it, I'm.

  Michelle: So this is eight one-on-one calls. By the way, you guys, it's, it's insane amount of information.

  Margaret: they also have like, um, people are wanna do it as the program should be. So it's eight, like the first week and the last week is [00:44:00] more than an hour.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Margaret: Um, because. The first week we are discovering and talking and working out what the person, how they want to go along with the program. So that's. Um, probably an hour and a half. And the last week, because we are doing an alignment plan, would be an hour and a half to two hours. then the other weeks it's an hour one-on-one coaching and also they get a journal, so there's a journal to that they can use alongside the program. And at the end we build things as well that they get something at the end that they can go away with, which is not just the alignment plan, but also something built in that will support whatever journey they go on we do the eight weeks program, if you know they have questions or they wanna reach out, [00:45:00] um, we also have that possibility of. You know, um, asking questions or being able to, so it's not just one-on-one, but I want it to be like they feel supported all the way through the eight weeks.

  Michelle: Such an incredible gift. Amazing. And I'm going to be putting in an application in the episode notes for anybody who wants to apply. Um, I highly recommend you take advantage of this 'cause I don't know that like anything like this is out, available out there.

  Margaret: Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Um. I, I totally believe in the program and I really believe that someone starting the program wherever they're at, at, in their fertility journey, are gonna come out feeling stronger, feeling more calm, feeling they have strategies and tools to move forward. also feeling that, um. You know, [00:46:00] a different mindset in how they're gonna approach that. They also will have, you know, uh, like skills for partner relationships and also boundaries. So that's, I think, really important as well. yes, um,

  Michelle: Amazing Margaret.

  Margaret: to have, you know, anyone on board so that I can make those changes for them.

  Michelle: Amazing. Amazing, amazing. So, Margaret, I am so excited we finally got you on here, and I just really like, I, I really adore you. You're just such a sweet person. I'm so happy I met you and I'm so happy to finally have you on the podcast. So thank you so much, Margaret, for coming on today.

  Margaret: Thank you, Michelle. Honestly, from the sincerely from the bottom of my heart, thank you for allowing me to get this message across to your listeners and [00:47:00] um, I absolutely adore you too, as you know.

  Michelle: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Ep 370 The Truth About Fertility Decline and Reproductive Longevity with Gabriella Rosa

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Gabriella Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, a globally recognised fertility specialist and researcher, to unpack the truth about fertility after 40.

We explore why age alone is not the real issue, what actually impacts egg and sperm quality, and how metabolic health, lifestyle factors, and emotional wellbeing play a much bigger role in conception than most people are told. Gabriella also shares insights from her clinical research and discusses the importance of addressing fertility-related trauma and stress.

This episode offers clarity, hope, and evidence-based guidance for anyone navigating fertility in their late 30s and 40s.

Key Takeaways: 

• Fertility myths around age 35 and 40

• Egg quality, sperm quality, and mitochondrial health

• Why fertility is a team effort

• Metabolic health and lifestyle factors that influence conception

• The emotional impact of infertility and why support matters

• Gabriella’s clinical trial supporting emotional wellbeing in fertility

Connect with Gabriela Rosa:

Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/
Fertility Breakthrough Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/
Fertility Breakthrough Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Grabriella: Welcome back to the podcast, Gabrielle, I'm so happy to have you.

  Thank you so much. You know, it's so lovely when I get to invited back so that I know that, okay, the first conversation went really well and people have gotten benefit and it's always wonderful. So thank you for having me.

  Of course. And we covered so many different things, but I'd like to get a little bit more deep dive with you, um, on a topic that. I hear often and it's, um, it's a topic I feel pretty passionate about too because I think that there's a lot of misconception about it. And it's fertility over 40. You know, people, people even say, you know, after 35, it just goes nose dive, and I've seen so many, so many conceptions happen after 40.

  And then you also, I always love sharing the Guinness Book of World Records, Don Brooks. Who got pregnant and had a healthy baby at 59[00:01:00]

  Wow. Yeah, that's, wow.

  you know, those stories

  I hope that doesn't happen to me, Michelle. All I have to say.

  that is so great. No, no, me too, me too. I'm like, um, I'm good there. But it just shows the possibilities

  Yeah. Yeah.

  we believe in a certain, um, like limit on what our bodies are capable of. And I know that you have a lot of amazing. You've had a lot of results in that and worked with a lot of people over 40, so I'd love to really explore that topic

  Yeah, absolutely.

  in that.

  Yeah, for sure.

  I think that it's, you've started it exactly where I think a lot of people. Land when they first hear of the conversation of fertility or infertility is that after 35, your fertility takes a nose dive and it's like, oh my God, can we please stop perpetuating that? Um, it's not to say that biologically.

  [00:02:00] Women do have at this point. And it's interesting 'cause you know, every time I start this conversation, I think about how obsolete this conversation is going to be in 50 years from now. You know? Because right now we do have a biological limit in terms of women are born with all the aids that we will ever have.

  But I am pretty certain that. You know, in a not so distant future with all of the research that's going on regarding stem cells and, you know, different aspects, and I don't wanna say specific things because we're still very early on, I often get asked about. Procedures right now that people, you know, see as possibly available to them.

  And the evidence really isn't there for a lot of these things that are being sold, you know, quote unquote in the marketplace to women who are desperate and who want to, you know, give themselves the best possible chance of having a baby. [00:03:00] And so I'm always hesitant to say. You know, women need to do things to improve their egg quality.

  From a perspective of interve high level interventions, uh, you know, there are absolutely things that are going to make a huge difference in terms of improving egg quality for women at any age. That come from taking charge of the things you do and optimizing results. So from that perspective, and we'll dive deeper into that, um, I highly recommend that people pay attention to the things that they're exposed to in their day-to-day, the choices that we make.

  You know, all of those things will be important when it comes to egg quality. But, you know, going back to the conversation that we were just having. When we talk about in the next 50 years where it's going to and how it's going to be possible for ovarian reserve to replenish itself or for us to be able to develop more eggs.[00:04:00]

  And have babies with our own eggs and extend the longevity of reproduction for women. You know, the, this, the, the sky's the limit. You know, I think as we start to dive deep into these new and unchartered washes, but we're still kind of very early on in that process. You know? Yes, there are some animal model studies.

  There are some interesting, you know, things that are being done in terms of science. But from a, from a viability perspective of it actually being done right now, it, it's, we're not there yet. You know, so we have to then have the concept that we don't want to be delaying fertility for the sake of delaying or for the sake of the fact that.

  You know, it is true that life extent, uh, um, average, the, the, the, um, sorry, the life expectancy rates of [00:05:00] populations have increased drastically, you know, just 50 years ago. If you think about it, you know, we were dying at 50 or 60, you know, whereas the life expectancy. Today in Western countries. I mean, I know that in Australia it's 84.5 years for females, you know?

  So you think about that and you go, wow, okay, so if I'm going to be alive with good quality of life into my eighties, and fertility wise, let's say menopause is the. Natural end of, and again, you know, in these types of cases where women are conceiving afterwards, it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it becomes highly unlikely.

  Um, but, you know, post menopause. But um, before menopause, certainly we need to start thinking about the fact that, okay, if we're hitting menopause, say on average. At [00:06:00] 45 to 50, and we know that five years, five to 10 years before menopause and the diagnostic criteria, there is one year of no periods. After, you know, you basically have ceased periods for one year and your FSH levels rise, your estrogen levels decrease.

  Then, you know, okay, I am in menopause. Five to 10 years before that, we women find themselves into this stage called perimenopause, which is where. There are more imbalances in terms of hormonal levels. There are more challenges in terms of regularity of cycles. Egg quality also decreases and ovarian reserve decreases as well.

  And so, you know, from that perspective, we do have to take into account that we. Right now, we'll hit that place somewhere. If we talk about five to 10 years before, if somebody hits menopause at [00:07:00] 45, then you know, from 35 to 40, they already are potentially in that perimenopause stage. If they hit menopause at 50.

  At 45 to 40, they are already in that perimenopausal state in perimenopause. It is not impossible. In fact, there are still many things you can do to optimize the chances of taking home a healthy baby. And so a lot of the patients that we would be seeing would be in that kind of, you know, 30 to say 45, you know, range where.

  They could potentially, and certainly when we talk about premature ovarian failure or premature ovarian sufficiency, where a woman is much younger and has a very elevated FSH and ovarian reserve, that's much declined. It obviously also comes into the conversation of like, okay, is it still possible to optimize the egg quality that is remaining so that we can improve the chances of taking [00:08:00] home a healthy baby?

  And the answer is absolutely yes. And in those situations, what is really important to highlight, and I think that it's even more important to take into consideration, is the fact that if we do have lower ovarian reserve, and if we do have impacted egg quality, sperm quality becomes of paramount importance because it is.

  The egg that has to, you know, do all of the work to ensure that we don't have the, the errors in the DNA of the sperm being passed on to a, a potential embryo or potential child. And so what happens is the egg has to utilize its own energy production that, you know, it's mitochondria that is already kind of struggling a little bit.

  For improving its own, um, division and, and maturation process. And then of course we'll have to go on [00:09:00] to produce an embryo development, you know, process. Um, it's going to have a much harder time if the sperm is not good quality, right? If we, if it's having to utilize its energy to. Eradicate or prevent those DNA fragmentation errors to be passed onto the baby, it's going to have less energy for embryo development and you know, kind of that whole process.

  So that's where we need to start really looking at this conversation. And we've talked about before, and I always say that fertility is a team sport and this is very much why? Because from a mechanistic perspective. Effective. If we don't have the best quality sperm, we are going to be putting an additional burden on the egg.

  That is, you know, that is not warranted. And certainly that didn't need to be there. So, you know, even though, and I think that this is the important takeaway from this whole conversation, is that. [00:10:00] As much as at this stage, we want to think that female fertility can be extended beyond, you know, uh, it's kind of quote unquote natural stages.

  It cannot. And so we do have to ensure that we're being smart about what it is that we do. We are not delaying. And it's important also for men to realize that because males male fertility is seen as more. Infinite, so to speak. It's not infinite by any means. Right. But we, we do hear in the media, you know, oh, Hugh Hefner made a Playboy, uh, Playboy Bunny pregnant, you know, um, at 90, and you kind of go, well, yeah, but she was 20, you know, and so.

  It's a very, very different situation with mitochondrial health being different and egg quality parameters being in a different, at a much earlier age, it can afford [00:11:00] to utilize its energy to fix the errors in a 90-year-old sperm, um, as opposed to, and the sperm is not 90-year-old because obviously sperm is being produced throughout a male's lifetime.

  But, um, the quality of its, uh, DNA certainly does decrease with. Time. And so, you know, it's a different conversation. So I think that a lot of, a lot of men think that, oh, I don't really need to worry about my fertility so much because obviously, you know, it's a woman's issue, which again, hopefully by now people understand that it's not and why it's not.

  But, um, it, with us seeing that, you know, sperm parameters are declining. With age and as the passing of time. Just even, you know, like I was reading a study, I was reading a a, an analysis the other day that was talking about the fact that since the 1970s sperm count, male sperm counts have decreased by 60%.[00:12:00]

  60%.

  I've heard of that. It's nuts.

  It's absolutely insane.

  so the, the normal, today's is not by any means what the normal used to be. So

  I.

  been like almost dumbed down to be considered normal.

  And, and this is the thing that a lot of times people don't understand is that reference ranges for lab results actually are derived from the population. So what happens is that if health is declining in the entire population over time, and diabetes and diabetes diagnosis and blood sugar level. You know, parameters and insulin parameters are a great example of this, and they also drastically impact fertility.

  But sperm is another one where, you know what a normal sperm count used to be in the seventies is literally 60 times higher, 60% higher than it is now. And now it's like, you know, you get 20 million, which is the minimum that you [00:13:00] know we need to have now. And most men struggle. You know, who, uh, who are having fertility problems, especially, you know, a huge percentage of the population who struggle to conceive.

  You know, if we talk about the fact that it's a 40% male factor, 40% female factor, and 20% embryonic factor. The reasons as to why people don't conceive or take a healthy pregnancy to term. So again, increased risk of miscarriage. Increased risk of infertility becomes a major issue here. Um, it's, it's, you know, it's not a woman's thing at all.

  It's actually a couple's thing to begin with. That then gets impacted by the embryo that ensues from those originating cells. So if we want to make those embryos into healthier embryos, we do have to pay attention to what's happening in terms of egg quality and sperm quality. For sure.

  And what do you think it is that causes it? I mean, we know environmental toxins, like what are your thoughts on why [00:14:00] it's

  Look. Absolutely environmental toxins will play a role. But if you also think about how men used to work back in. You know, the fifties, sixties, uh, the fifties, we started to have more office work, right. Being part of the, the, the day to day. But, you know, there used to be a lot more movement in general in terms of people actually not sitting down.

  At their desks the whole day. There used to be a lot more activity. And if you think about, just from a, purely from a heat perspective that we know impacts sperm, you know, we know that sedentary behavior increases the, the risk of many chronic illnesses, but it's also having a huge impact on, in terms of sperm because.

  There is a reason why the testicles hang outside of the body. It's because typically the testicles, in order to produce quality sperm, need to be about one degree centigrade lower than the rest of the body. And so what that [00:15:00] means is that if we are heating the testicles because we're sitting, men are sitting on it the whole day on their desks and doing computer work, or they have occupational hazards that are part of, you know, that conversation and then they go out.

  Side and they engage in cycling that, you know, retypes and do all sorts or have their phones in their pockets, or go in the baths or spas or saunas, you know, anything that increases heat to the testicles is going to negatively impact. Firm and you know, sitting down on the couch all day for four hours watching Netflix after work they've already been sitting all day is certainly not going to be beneficial.

  But then, you know, outside of that obvious kind of very physical mechanistic process, there is also the fact that, you know, we do have more endocrine disruptors than ever in our environment. And so what that ends up meaning or translating into is the fact that, okay, now what we have is a [00:16:00] situation. Where there are exposures from our food, from where our food is packaged to what we put on our bodies and the air we breathe that really are impacting that lock and key, that is how the endocrine system operates.

  You know, the cell. Is the lock and the hormone is the key. A hormone is a substance that you know is, is built in one part of the body and affect another part of the body. And what happens with these endocrine disruptors is that they mimic the key. And so you end up with something that is, you know, estrogen.

  And a lot of these endocrine disruptors are estrogenic. Now men need to have a higher dose of testosterone in, they're circulating in their body in order to be able to produce sperm. And because a lot of these endocrine disruptors are estrogenic, what ends up happening is that they're being loaded with additional estrogens that were never naturally found, you know, in most men's uh, [00:17:00] bloodstreams, and certainly not in the cell receptors that these mimicking chemicals find themselves in.

  And so instead of, you know, the cell receptor for testosterone, having. A molecule of testosterone in that cell receptor that's going to do the right job that is encoded for it to do. It has a mimicking molecule that basically, essentially changes the function or the instruction that is delivered to that cell.

  And so we end up with issues that, you know, obviously we didn't anticipate in terms of many health conditions. I mean, we are seeing. Lots of different estrogen related cancers in men these days because of this very reason. So, you know, I think that there is an environmental component that is really a big part of what we need to take into account as well.

  And now I'm learning about LEDs and [00:18:00] how, I mean, we're still programmed by light and, and are. really respond to the circadian rhythm of nature.

  Hmm.

  then you have LEDs, which don't have a complete spectrum. I can confuse the body as well, and I'm learning about that. There's so many, um, aspects of how we're living.

  It's crazy.

  Yeah. I mean, look, you know, this is the thing. I think we are, the human body is highly unprepared for modern life. You know, there's the, and especially the speed in which technology is developing and unveiling new and improved, quote unquote, you know, ways of living. Certainly convenience is at an all time high.

  Uh, bodies, they weren't built for convenience. Really, if you think about it, what actually kept us healthy was the struggle, right? And so we are now in a situation where. We don't have those same struggles in the day to day and we have to add back some [00:19:00] friction to be able to, you know, really help the body to kind of rebalance.

  And, you know, this is one of those other really interesting points too, that, you know, the adaptation response that is required for the body to be in homeostasis is also being confused, right? So there is a lot that the body can take, but. For the most part, one of the things that I think we need to, to understand, and it's almost kind of like going back to um, an earlier time so to speak, is the fact that.

  The body really does know what to do. Its internal wisdom is in impressive on so many levels, right? And so sometimes it's not what we need to do. It's not doing more. That is the answer. It's like, what are the things that we need to stop doing, right? What are the things that we need to remove from. Our day to day, that actually helps to enhance [00:20:00] the way that our body operates simply from and not being there.

  And I think identifying those things for ourselves that each person kind of knows. You know, like if I was to go back to a more natural way of living. What does that look like? Um, I think that that's a question that more and more we're going to need to ask ourselves. And it's not to say that, you know, we ignore technology or these conveniences.

  There are many, many things that, you know, are wonderful. I mean, just the development of antibiotics for one is, you know, like I would never, if somebody needs antibiotics, I'd be the first one to be saying, go take it. You know, like there's no need to apply. Some herbal medicine to, you know, something that will be resolved for, you know, with an antibiotic.

  Like, you know, sometimes I get patients in my clinic that have literal infections that are silent, but are causing infertility. Chlamydia is, you know, a, a common one. Like I'm not gonna be telling them, oh, here, [00:21:00] take a bottle of herbal medicines. It's not that I don't use herbal medicines, we certainly do, where it's indicated and where it's necessary, and there are some incredible benefits to utilizing it.

  But it's about knowing what tool to use when, rather than we only do one thing, or we only do things in a certain way because then we lose the benefit of technology and development and we start to add friction where it, we shouldn't, you know?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I think that everything, if you really take all of the different technologies and look at the ancient wisdom and then also the modern technology and combine it, and I think that that's what makes a really good practitioner is somebody who can decipher

  Yeah. Absolutely a hundred percent. And also I think that, you know, it's, it's about patients learning where things are most effective. Let me give you an example. You know, sometimes we, I often have people asking me [00:22:00] about, you know, like, should I take metformin right? For improving my insulin resistance? And I say, well.

  equality, they say, uh,

  That's right. And, and it's actually for implantation. You know, there's a lot of studies now coming out and they, and some of these studies, by the way, they're not actually human studies. They're, they're animal models. And so I think that one of the really important things to highlight here is that there's a lot that gets talked about, or especially on social media, like.

  Uh, yesterday I did a video. I do a lot of patient education on my Instagram account. Gabriela Rosa fertility is the handle. But you know, like yesterday I did a video on seed cycling because seed cycling is something that gets perpetuated a lot. There is no human evidence on the impact of seeds on hormonal regulation in the body.

  Okay, now if you like seeds. And you wanna eat them. They're crunchy. They're delicious in salads. You know, they're going to provide fiber, they're going to provide some omegas. You know, it's not that I'm saying don't eat [00:23:00] seeds. It's that the way in which people then want to extrapolate. Evidence from an animal model or an animal animal study into human, you know, processing is, is inaccurate at best and dangerous at worst.

  Because what ends up happening is that then people think that, okay, I'm going to not take. The appropriate treatment to go and do something that is being denoted on social media, as you know, the way, their natural way to improve my hormones. And it, it, it's bollocks. It doesn't work. It's not actually, you know, the, the intention of benefit is there, but.

  You know, good intentions aren't everything. Sure Placebo still results in 30% of the benefits in drug trials. 30% of the result is actually derived from placebo. So if you think it works, it probably, you know, will give you some benefit, [00:24:00] but the reality is.

  harm. And that's, that's the

  You see, but this is the problem. The problem is that there is harm because if you think about it, if somebody is taking quote unquote, some, you know, trendy, whatever from social media and applying that instead of applying effectiveness and effective treatment.

  They've lost the opportunity to actually make a difference to their situation. And so there is harm in that. And I think that there is a lot that we need to take into account when we are making recommendations to general public that it's not, it's, there is no neutral effect in a recommendation that a practitioner makes because the practitioner.

  At the end of the day is being seen as the person that is guiding that, that individual, towards hopefully a better outcome. And so if we're giving, you know, evidence-based rubbish as recommendations, people get confused and in that there is harm, whether it's [00:25:00] misinformation that's not derived from a malice of wanting to misinform to make money, which then becomes this information.

  It doesn't matter because by the time somebody has lost the opportunity to have a baby altogether, because they were doing a thousand things that would actually not move the needle in their particular situation because they heard from a book or they heard from a forum, or they heard from somebody's social media account that it's the thing to do well, we've done harm.

  Right. And I think that that's the, the problem.

  is harmful, like things

  Oof.

  like is really harmful because knowing what's really happening in your body, and people do, I mean, because you're able to get the supplements, those kind of things. But if you're having, um, you know, certain diets, of course if you're doing it exce, uh, like instead of something else, then yes, it's harmful, but. If you're doing it in addition, and it's just like, it's really just adding more things to your diet. Different story.

  Oh, for sure. I think that, you know, again, it's, it's really. [00:26:00] How people understand the communication of accurate information. Right. But going back to the example in terms of like Metformin the best way still, you know, and I've done extensive reviews on this topic. Insulin resistance is one of the biggest issues when it comes to ovulation.

  You know, failure, irregularity of cycles, sperm parameter issues, you know, and it's silent and usually people don't even understand that they have it, or their doctors don't even get to diagnose it because they, they do it too late. Uh, and, and so what happens is that. The best way still, if you go to the evidence and you, you can do a clinical, uh, uh, a full literature review on this, and you will find that still, the best way to improve insulin resistance and blood sugar parameters is diet and exercise.

  If in some instances it's necessary because people either are not compliant [00:27:00] enough or they have some other issues in terms of the compliance aspect, then sure we can add Medica medications to that, and of course where there are metabolic disease already in situ, then obviously there might be a need for medications to help to correct those issues.

  If somebody already has diabetes, then yes, take your insulin right. The reality of it is that when we are looking at hormonal imbalances derived from a metabolic place in terms of like blood sugar dysregulation, insulin resistance, in the very early stages, diet and exercise is going to be better than drugs and medication.

  But that's not the message that most people receive or understand because, well, there are misaligned in interests in the healthcare system, right? And we also as patients, uh, you know, most people want convenience. So most people are going to like, you know, if I can get. Take a [00:28:00] pill and not have to bother about all of these other things that take time, effort, energy, and and so on.

  Then I might just take the pill. But that goes back to the conversation that we were having before where the convenience is actually not in our best interest. Right, because it's, this is precisely where like if you really want to improve insulin resistance, hey, 45 minutes of zone rate in zone, zone range two, uh, heart rate range, um, training 45 minutes.

  Three to four times a week and go build muscle at the gym and you're going to do a much better job at your overall health. The way that I like to think about this, uh, in terms of building muscle and that whole mitochondrial impact throughout all of your cells that are going to help to improve every aspect of health and fertility, it's almost like.

  Muscle is the air filter of the system, you know, uh, air purifier, so to speak. [00:29:00] So it's going to be removing and utilizing items and things within the bloodstream that actually is going to help the environment for the egg maturation period and for the sperm maturation or development period. To to happen in a better way.

  So by us ensuring that we are implementing healthy strategies in our day to day, from building muscle to a healthy diet, we're going to be not only impacting. Our cells and how our body operates in general, but we are going to be having a very direct impact on fertility from adding those strategies. So it really is, it's a comprehensive approach that's going to ultimately optimize the chances of taking home a healthy baby.

  But. Knowing when to utilize convenience and knowing when to actually go for the hard stuff at the gym is a really important part of this conversation for optimizing fertility over [00:30:00] 40 or at any age. Right? One of the things that I do say to my patients all the time is that. If you want to improve and optimize your mitochondrial health for your eggs, and this is not going to have a direct impact on eggs necessarily, but what happens is that if your body is in better health overall and your mitochondrial health is better in your body overall, what ends up happening is that it gives those those cells that are in development better opportunity to be healthier and that can only improve your fertility outcomes.

  Yeah, 100%. It, it really is truly like a holistic approach and to understand that your body is not made in little, um, you're not focusing on the puzzle pieces. You're, you're looking at the whole picture.

  Wow.

  everything impacts everything. And then, you know, even worse than metformin, you know, this whole ozempic baby trend that's happening.

  And, uh, people don't realize that in some cases it can really impact digestive [00:31:00] system and in a way that's irreversible. there are, it's not coming for free. And there's always like, you know, the shortcuts that people, you know, they, they've had stories when we were little, like on shortcuts

  Yeah.

  is for free.

  There's no such thing as a shortcut.

  You see, this is the thing, and I think that that's a really important thing for people to realize. Like GLP ones are a miracle. Like honestly, they are a miracle of modern technology and of pharmaceutical prowess. Like I will take my hat off any day of the week and say that, you know. For certain people with developed disease, it's going to be, and particularly where they struggle with implementation, they struggle with, you know, a whole bunch of things.

  It's not that it's something, it, it, I don't see it personally. I, and I, and I have the same view about every aspect of medicalization, right? There is a, a time and a [00:32:00] place for certain things and you know, with GLP ones there is definitely a, a. A time and a place where that might be useful, but it does not replace, and I think that this is the important takeaway message.

  It does not replace people having to take ownership and responsibility for their day-to-day actions, their behaviors, their habits, you know, and it's an aid for sure. It's an aide. For some people, it actually is going to make the entire difference between them dropping enough weight in a sustainable way that it enables them to be able to have a healthy pregnancy.

  Make the mistake about it, you know, being overweight, insulin resistance and diabetes, all of those metabolic health, uh, conditions. Drastically negatively impact egg and sperm quality and, um, uterine and [00:33:00] receptivity, and therefore the ability to actually carry a healthy pregnancy to term. Now, there's also no evidence suggesting that it's entirely safe, and you're absolutely right that there are going, there is no free lunch here, right?

  So it's not something that is going to be a situation where. You can take it with no repercussions. There's always gonna be repercussions. There are, there are, there are kind of, you know, cost effectiveness and effectiveness analysis and, and pros and cons that you have to put into consideration when we, you are making a decision to use or not use certain treatments.

  So, you know, the thing about it is that. If somebody is in a situation where they would have to choose between bariatric surgery or GLP ones, I'd be going GLP ones any day of the week. Right? Like

  Yeah,

  Exactly. Because you know, with bariatric surgery like that. Stuff is permanent. You're [00:34:00] gonna have permanent nutritional deficiency issues.

  You're going to have multiple other health condition issues to deal with later down the track from something that you know is very, very permanent. Now, mind you, some people with, you know. Morbid obesity. Maybe that's some that might be the only way for them to be able to actually get their health back on track.

  And so it's not to say that there is a right or wrong approach. There is an approach that is going to actually support. The values and preferences of the patient. And I think that that's one of the really important things that we need to take into account. For some people, certain decisions, particularly in terms of their health, is going to be determined by their values and preferences.

  And taking those into consideration is the job of any clinician, right? So we, we are not going to be saying to people, oh no, this is the only way, and I mean certain clinicians do, and that's just. You [00:35:00] know, it's them. Um, I don't think that we're, we're going into an era in terms of, of healthcare where patients are highly educated, they have access to all of the same tools that clinicians have access to, and they use it, you know, they will literally, you know, sometimes I, I have seen patients in my clinic come in with.

  Detailed files of their situation, and they're not, they're lay people, right, but they have highly educated themselves on their situation and what's going on and what it is that they need, and they can ask and answer questions that some medical doctors cannot even. Understand yet, you know, so we have to be also very mindful of the fact that the more that somebody educates themselves, the better they're going to be able to advocate for themselves.

  And I think that in this [00:36:00] conversation of trying to get pregnant over 40, it's so, so important because time is finite. It is essential that you don't just keep applying the same strategy, hoping for a different resolve, but that. Understand what are the options available to me in my situation and how best to stage those things in such a way that's actually going to benefit me the patient in the best possible way.

  And if medications are a part of that, and if surgeries a part of that, and if something else needs to be brought in as a part of that strategy, then it's much better that their clinician is able to guide that process. Then the patient tries to make these decisions and, and put these things together on their own and end up in the complete wrong place that they didn't intend as a result of not having that kind of support.

  So I think that there's a lot there to, to disentangle, but there's, these [00:37:00] are all very important considerations, particularly when all the most patients over 40 are going to hear is, you're running outta time. You need to hurry up and do IVF. And it's like, well actually. I think that there's a whole lot more to it that, you know, than just continuing to apply more treatment when we don't understand why treatment is failing.

  'cause it's age is a proxy. It's a proxy for the underlying metabolic factors that are getting in the way. To the healthiest possible outcome, which is, you know, the normal outcome that we are wanting to see when it comes to fertility is you have sex, you get pregnant, you have a baby, we're done. We're no longer having this conversation.

  Anything other than that means that you may have investigated some, but there are still missing information. You need to arrive at to be able to transform results. So that's an important consideration for patients in this kind of situation that I, I have to say, [00:38:00] it's one of the most important things in my clinic is understanding why that's, you know, my fertile method that we've been using for the last 24 years.

  The f infertile is, is not what you think it's actually fact finding. You know, it's, that's the first step. So it's really important.

  Yeah, for sure. And it, it's true. I agree with you. You, you first start with what you can do. Rather than going from zero to a hundred and then going straight for like the hardest medication, which I find happens a lot. And so this is

  Oh gosh.

  very, it's very important. And from a Chinese medicine perspective, we look at the spleen and stomach and we want the digestive system to be optimal.

  You don't wanna rush to do something too strong. You need to take the steps, the proper steps. You can't jump from like, um, no foundation to like the third floor or whatever, you know?

  Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and this is the other thing too, is that the escalation of what's required, there is a timing for all of [00:39:00] that, right? And so understanding where someone is to where they need to be, but understanding what are the steps that they need to get there is critically important.

  Otherwise, we end up with more of the same. And you know, more of the same usually means no baby. And that obviously is not the outcome that patients are looking for.

  So now I, I definitely wanna get to this, um, topic because it's exciting, new and exciting news that you've had, which is that you're currently undergoing or, or working on a clinical trial. And I'd love for you to, you're gonna explain it much better than me, so.

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, look, you know, I have been going on this kind of scientific joy ride for the last seven years. Um, finally I've graduated from my master's in public health at Harvard, and that was where we did our first study of my patient results. You know, like we had a, a study of. 544 patients going through our treatment and figured out that the live birth rate is [00:40:00] 78.8% and lots of other really interesting things out of that.

  And that weed my appetite for understanding more about, you know, how to really answer scientific questions that are gonna benefit my patients. And so I went into the Doctor of Public Health program at Harvard and I'm gradu about to graduate. Yay

  Yay. That's

  Cannot. Yeah, so May next year is, is my deadline. Um, but as a result, you know, part of what I wanted to really, um, skill up on was running clinical trials.

  And so I'm running a clinical trial on testing and intervention, uh, specifically. Focused on how it impacts infertility related trauma, grief and distress. So it's, it's basically a writing intervention where people have a prompt that is the guided prompts. Um, we have two groups. Everybody gets the intervention at the end of the [00:41:00] study, but, um, ultimately looking at, you know, there's a lot of evidence that supports.

  In the way that we obviously are, are testing. And the impact in chronic diseases on the emotional component of how people experience their situation. Certainly we know that infertility is a trauma inducing event, right? And so figuring out ways, and unfortunately, even though that is the case, you know, a lot of times people don't.

  Get given any kind of emotional support through very difficult, challenging fertility journeys. And so I wanted to really look at something that I have been using with my patients for many years and test it in a way that, you know, I already knew that there was some benefit because otherwise I wouldn't have gone into, you know, doing this particular trial.

  But, um, we really are looking at, you know, what is the effect for people who really do self-report [00:42:00] with, you know, a high level of distress on their fertility journey. How can we, you know, is there a way to actually help them to, to reduce that, um, that level of the stress and that level of, of trauma reaction and the, the feelings of grief through the journey.

  And, uh, and if so. Is that a sustainable effect? So that's really, these are the questions that this study, uh, aiming to answer. It's called the Inspire Study. Uh, and people can go to Inspire Study online. So, um, that, I'm sure you will put that in the show notes, but. Via study online, we're still recruiting.

  We need 220 females for this study. And the reason that we actually chose females only for this particular study is because we wanted to not have to disentangle the effect that could be differential between men and women. But you know, I have a hunch that [00:43:00] the same effect that we would experience in, in terms of improvements in women would be.

  Derived in men as well. And I think that it's even a, a, a more important study to be honest, because often if women don't get the support, the emotional support men get it even less. Right? And so, you know, that might be a future study that we'll be recruiting for at sometime down the track, but for now, females over 18 who might be interested in addressing some of their emotional, you know, challenges through the fertility journey.

  Can go to Inspire study.online and get more information.

  That's so exciting and I'm very curious to see your findings. Um, which I know it takes time. Everything takes time. It's like really something that you have to follow and, um, but I will be sharing this in the. Of show notes and I'll be also sharing it with my own patients.

  Amazing.

  exciting thing.

  And anything that you can do really to give tools to people going through the fertility journey, it could be [00:44:00] so confusing for so many people. And, uh, it, it really is. We we're talking about this before in the, like before the show, is that. A lot of this, and you had mentioned that, uh, people don't even realize that they need it. They don't even think about it because anything that really comes down to mindset or emotions can feel very abstract. And when you're already in that state of mind, it's really hard to see how to get out of that. So having the tools or something that makes it a little bit more digestible or manageable in any way can help so many people.

  Tremendously.

  Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, it's, it's interesting 'cause my patient this morning was saying this to me. She literally was like, you know, and she had gone through 12, imagine 12 failed IVF cycles and four miscarriages.

  terrible.

  And, uh, and she said, she said, I didn't realize until I got into your program, I didn't realize how much I was [00:45:00] holding in terms of trauma and in terms of, you know, how much I needed emotional support.

  And it's a, it's an experience that, you know, my doctoral chair, the, the chair of my doctoral, uh, committee is um, is an obstetrician gynecologist. She's actually the primary investigator of the Apple Women's Health Study and. An obstetrician gynecologist, and it's really interesting because we were talking about, you know, this particular study and I, and obviously being part of her lab, I was presenting it to the team and one of the big pieces of conversation about it was the fact that so much of the journey that people go through in terms of infertility is emotionally unsupported, you know?

  She's extremely excited. 'cause you know, she works at the MG MDH, um, the, the Massachusetts General Hospital here in Boston and she is really excited to be able to, depending on the results, to be able to give [00:46:00] this as a tool for her patients and, and the patients in the, in the hospital, you know, going through IVF to be able to utilize 'cause it's so easy, so easy to apply tool.

  It's very effective and so, yeah, it'll be interesting to see results. I'm very excited as well.

  Yeah. Well I'm very excited and I definitely wanna be following up on you and I'll be checking it out, um, as it goes. So if you ever have any updates,

  Absolutely we could actually do a podcast, um, a show on taking people through the intervention. So

  Oh, that would be awesome. Amazing. Yeah, that would be really cool.

  let's do it.

  yeah, so great. So if anybody wants to check it out, I will have that in the episode notes. um, of course, as always, I really enjoy talking to you. I feel like I learned so much. You have such a great perspective that really has like a foot in both worlds, which I find to be [00:47:00] tremendously impactful. not just having one perspective, you know, really understanding the science and kind of like looking through and working through the data and then also having a holistic perspective on the different modalities can

  Thank. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for helping share the word. I think it's such an important thing that we do this, so thank you.

  Yeah. Thank you so much Gabriela.

Ep 369 The Fertility Red Flag Hiding in Your Mouth

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by biological dentist and integrative health coach Dr. Toni Engram (@drtoniengram) to uncover one of the most overlooked foundations of reproductive health: your mouth.

Most people do not realize that oral health is deeply connected to inflammation, autoimmune conditions, and fertility challenges. In this eye opening conversation, Dr. Toni explains how hidden infections, gum disease, mercury fillings, and even everyday products like fluoride can quietly impact hormones, gut health, thyroid function, and pregnancy outcomes.

We dive into the science behind biological dentistry, the truth about fluoride, safer approaches to dental procedures, how the oral microbiome affects your fertility, and why preconception dentistry is one of the most powerful yet underutilized steps for preparing the body for pregnancy.

If you have been working on your fertility, supporting your gut, addressing autoimmune conditions, or simply trying to reduce inflammation and support your hormones, this episode is a must listen. Your mouth may be the missing piece.

Key Takeaways: 

• Oral health is directly connected to inflammation, gut health, and autoimmune conditions.

• Mercury fillings and hidden infections can trigger systemic inflammation and impact fertility.

• Biological dentistry uses safer materials and focuses on root cause healing.

• Fluoride carries risks including thyroid disruption and neurotoxicity.

• Xylitol, hydroxyapatite, and simple daily habits can safely support remineralization and overall oral health.

Links and resources:

Visit Dr. Toni’s Website:
http://flourish.dental

Follow her on social media:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drtoniengram/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/flourishdentalboutique/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@yourholisticdentist
X: https://x.com/DentalFlourish
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@flourishdentalboutique
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-toni-engram-11081731/

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Toni.

  Toni: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

  Michelle: Me too. So I always like to start with an origin story, and I'd love for you to share, um, how you got into your work, but very customized, um, dentistry.

  Toni: Yeah. Not your traditional dentist, that's for sure. Um, the, how I got into dentistry is a, it's a much more boring story.

  Toni: So we'll get

  to the interesting

  Michelle: I just wanted, I just wanted to help people and, and dentistry seemed like a, a more family friendly version of healthcare than going to med school. So that's how I became a dentist.

  And man, I just wanted to be a normal dentist, that's all. Um, wanted to have a normal practice in a normal town. But thankfully God had other plans for me, and it was around 2011. I had a toddler at home. I was working [00:01:00] full-time as an associate dentist at another practice. I was in the process of opening my first practice from scratch, you know, just me solo by myself doing all the construction and that sort of thing.

  And I just got super, super sick. Um, I wasn't eating well, obviously. I wasn't sleeping well. I was doing all the, the normal type A things that one does, uh, which worked for me when I, when I was younger, but then all of a sudden just did not, and I had all kinds of, you know, unfortunate digestive issues that doctors kind of blew off for a while.

  And, uh, just told me it was IBS for the longest time. And finally, uh, my symptoms got so bad that. That even they couldn't ignore them or push them aside anymore. And so I was diagnosed with Crohn's colitis, which is just an autoimmune condition that affects the gut and was given, you know, just the [00:02:00] very typical.

  Western Medicine Answer was, here's your list of medications that you're gonna need to take and you're gonna need to be on these for forever. Uh, or until they stop working. Uh, and oh yeah, by the way, um, there's a good chance that you're gonna need surgery at some point to remove all or part of your colon.

  Toni: I've heard that before. That's so crazy.

  Michelle: Uh, and I chi, you know, there were, I had no holistic biological background. That was not in my background at all. I had a healthcare background. My family is in western medicine. Like that's how I grew up. Um, and so, but I knew that that just was not at the. That couldn't be true. I was too busy for all that.

  Toni: Yeah.

  Michelle: I had too much to do. Um, so, and I even asked the question. I was like, well, what do I do to actually get, well, how do I heal this and get rid of this? What do I need to eat differently or do differently? And the gastroenterologist looked at me, um, and [00:03:00] this digestive illness that I had that was impacting my gut, he literally looked at me and said, Toni, your diet has nothing to do with this.

  Toni: Wow.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Toni: says a lot about just

  Michelle: and that

  Toni: current affairs. Yeah.

  Michelle: seriously, um, so I thought that that was. Quite frankly. And, um, I took the medications 'cause I was, like I said, I was sick. Um, and so I did, I did steroids, I did the medications, the, the whole shebang. 'cause I needed to stop the, stop the process. And I was scared not to do what they said.

  So took the medications. Thankfully went into remission really quickly on the medications. Um, but during that time I started going down all the rabbit holes online, like, how do I actually get, well, how do I heal my gut? And that was where the magic happened because, uh, I didn't have any guidance. I [00:04:00] didn't know about functional medicine at the time, but as I was learning how to actually heal myself and get well, I realized.

  Man, Crohn's disease, it's all about inflammation and a dysbiosis in the gut. What do I treat every day? I help people with tooth decay and gum disease, which is all about inflammation and a dysbiosis in the very first part of your gut, which is your mouth. So I knew that if I could figure out how to get well myself.

  That I had an obligation to figure out the same thing for my patients too, and to be able to help them get well, because I gotta tell you, the normal like drill and fill model of dentistry was frustrating. It was, it burned me out because people weren't getting well. Um, and so once I started. Really seeing this root cause dentistry, you know, how can we actually [00:05:00] heal patients and help them get well?

  Not only did I start feeling better, but my patients started getting better and, and we're learning every day, um, how to get to these root cause issues to really achieve true healing that starts in the mouth, but really is a, a whole body phenomenon.

  Toni: It really is, and it was, uh, fascinating for me to learn once I started specializing in fertility, just how important it is for fertility health. I mean.

  And it is, I mean, it's important for a lot of things, but that's kind of like, um, I guess fertility health is sort of the end result of, you know, what can co what can happen if you're taking care of in, you know, inflammation.

  And there's so many, the gut microbiome, like there's so many aspects that impact it, but it's almost secondary to that.

  And talk to me about, um. What is it, how, how do you like, take [00:06:00] dentistry and make it root cause? And I'm assuming that that was how you became a biological dentist. And for people who have never heard of that, can you walk us through like what that means?

  Um, because I think that it's, it's a new concept and it doesn't seem like it's mainstream, so

  it might be like new for people to hear.

  Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And it, so a lot of people use the term holistic dentistry. We use the term biological dentistry. It's really just a more holistic, it's like the functional medicine. Version of dentistry. So what that means in real life is we are trying to minimize toxins that we use. So we're not using any of those old silver fillings that are half mercury.

  Um, I'm not using any fluoride in the practice. We can talk about that later because fluoride is a pretty potent toxin. Um, we are eliminating all of those things in the practice [00:07:00] and. Focusing first on prevention. You know, if we can focus on diet and actually having a healthy terrain, that's what we wanna do.

  We wanna help you avoid the, the drills and the, and the scalpels in my chair if we, if we can, if at all possible. Uh, but when we do need to intervene, we wanna do so strategically. We wanna do so gently and safely for the body in a way that promotes healing rather than adding another toxic burden to the body.

  So we're very intentional with our materials, very intentional with, with what we use. Um, we do a lot of nutrition coaching. We have a, a full accelerator program where we work on resetting the, the oral microbiome to get it back to a healthy state. And again, really just testing and getting to the root cause of tooth decay and gum [00:08:00] disease and other oral diseases, and then making sure that nothing in the mouth is impairing the rest of your health.

  Including fertility, uh, making sure that nothing going on in your mouth. So, you know, we're looking for hidden infections. We're looking at those old root canals, we're looking at heavy metals, all of those things to make sure that the human terrain, the biological terrain of your body is. Well prepared for all levels of health.

  Um, and that's why I'm so excited to talk to your audience because fertility is such like, we just need this foundation, this preconception foundation so that you can have healthy pregnancies when you want to.

  Toni: I think this topic is like so important. I can't even underscore how important it is because. That is, uh, you said something that was really key is that digestion [00:09:00] starts in the mouth.

  And I think that a lot of people think about like gut. They, they think about it straight to the gut. Yes, it happens there too, but it starts in the mouth.

  And I talk often about like chewing, even chewing and, you know, but this kind of sounds like conscious dentistry. It's like becoming conscious that, and I think that that's really key is, is when any kind of medicine or a medical form. Not only treats what it treats but then looks at the neighboring or, um, affecting aspects that are surrounding whatever it is, and not seeing it as an island because our bodies just don't work that way.

  We're not islands and we don't have compartments that are separate from the rest of the body.

  So I really, really. Love that you combine it and you really look at like everything from diet. And then one of the ways that, like, one of the reasons I've heard of biological dentistry is because my husband [00:10:00] has a mercury filling that's getting a little loose.

  And I was afraid because I know that that could be very dangerous in a regular dentistry setting be if you don't know how to remove it. And there there's a certain way to remove it. And I know that with biological dentistry there's a very, like, typically they'll know how to remove mercury in a safe way.

  Am I correct?

  Michelle: You are absolutely correct and if I, you know, I have this discussion all the time with people sometimes, sometimes people just can't find a biological dentist and they want to, and they're like, oh, well, can I just go to my regular dentist? So it. If you do nothing else at a biological dentist, I would say.

  100% do not have your amalgam fillings removed at a traditional standard dentist only have your amalgam fillings removed with someone who knows the SMART protocol. And SMART just stands for safe mercury [00:11:00] amalgam removal technique

  because you are absolutely 100% right. So those fillings, the, the old silver fillings, they are half mercury and half.

  Other stuff, other metals, um, when they are in the mouth, they, they used to, they taught us in school that the mercury was bound out, bound up inside the filling, and it stayed and it didn't leach or go anywhere. But what we know now is that anytime you apply heat or friction to one of those fillings, you'll get a tiny offgassing of mercury vapor every time.

  So anytime you chew or grind your teeth at night. Or a drink, hot coffee, you're going to have a tiny little bit of mercury exposure,

  which for, for. Many people for a long period of time was fine because our toxic buckets weren't quite so full as they are normally now. Um, we're seeing more and more people are sensitive to these things.

  Our toxic buckets are full. [00:12:00] We just don't have the capacity to handle this as much as we did in the past. Um, so you can imagine if heat and friction releases mercury vapor into the body. And Mercury likes to get stored in the brain, in organs, in fatty tissue. Uh, it doesn't just, it's not just all processed.

  It likes to stay and just hang around. So when one of those fillings needs to be replaced, your dentist is going to take a high speed drill at 800,000 RPMs. What do you think is going to happen in terms of the friction and the heat that's generated from the procedure itself? It is massive. And we've seen the dentist who have done testing on this have seen that it covers the mercury vapor can be spread throughout the entire room.

  So the patient is getting a very large exposure because the, all the pink stuff in your mouth is very, very absorbent. So you're gonna get a huge exposure, [00:13:00] but also the dentist and the assistant is going to get a large exposure. So then it become like, to me it's. Not just a patient issue, it's also an ethical employer issue.

  It like, how are we going to expose our team, our assistants, to mercury vapor, who are typically females in their childbearing years, who are going to be the most sensitive to that toxic exposure? So. For all of those reasons, the, the I-A-O-M-T, which is a group of biological dentists, developed these protocols to minimize that mercury exposure during the procedure itself.

  And so these protocols have different ways of, multiple ways of isolating the tooth. Filtering the air in the room, uh, functioning all of the, the vapor. We use special mercury vapor, um, absorbance and vacuums in the room. [00:14:00] Um, making sure that the patient and that the team is covered head to toe. It. We have layers and layers of protection that we use when we're taking these fillings out.

  And then we're, you know, working with. Naturopaths and functional medicine doctors to make sure that the patient's supported on the detox side of things as well, both before and after the procedure. So I think it's highly important that if you need an amalgam filling, replaced, that you do so with a biological dentist or someone who is smart, certified and knows what those protocols are.

  Toni: Yes. Super important and of course. You don't want mercury when you're trying to conceive. You want it like out of your body as quick as possible. So I think that that's just really important. And then talk to the audience about autoimmune and how your, your dental health can impact autoimmunity and inflammation really systemically.

  Michelle: It's [00:15:00] such a huge issue because autoimmunity is, is. At its core, it's inflammatory. And so most of the things that happen in your mouth are inflammatory thing, like that's where things go wrong. It's with the inflammatory response. And so we see it well established in the scientific literature now that any kind of oral health issue, like an increase in gum disease, so gum bleeding, um, gingivitis.

  All of that is correlated with higher rates of autoimmune conditions of all kinds. So that's Crohn's disease, that's rheumatoid arthritis, that's Hashimoto's, that's all of it. Um, and we also notice that if you are ha, if you already have an autoimmune condition, when you have a flare up, sometimes that will show up in your mouth.

  Often it will show up in your mouth. And so these are conversations that. We need to [00:16:00] be having as a, a healthcare team, because if I see something, if I've got a patient who I know has an autoimmune diagnosis of some kind, if I see an uptick in their bleeding, that's the first question I'm asking is, how's your rheumatoid arthritis?

  How are you doing lately? Are you, are you having a flare? If not, then you might be about to have a flare so that they can. Take notice, take action. Make sure that they're doing what they need to do to take care of themselves from a whole body perspective.

  Toni: And if they have an active infection, um, I've seen, you know, with my patients, one, um, one patient had an active infection because there was, um, basically a cavitation

  and um, an old surgery of, uh, her wisdom teeth removed and, and,

  she had autoimmune conditions. And then she resolved that and she almost immediately felt better overall.

  Michelle: Isn't that fascinating? [00:17:00] Yeah, it makes such a huge difference. Such a huge difference. And you're right, that's an important point too. Um, you know that the easiest inflammatory thing in the mouth to see is gum disease. Um, but it's not just that there are infections that can be hiding around root canals, infections that can be hiding within the jawbone from where those wisdom teeth or any tooth has been removed.

  Uh, if the bone just didn't heal properly in that site. Then the bone can literally become necrotic and then it creates an inflammatory response elsewhere in the

  body. Because also, I mean, you would think, you know, the body's so, uh, focused on fighting this, so it's constantly like draining the body's immunity or energy.

  Toni: And it can cause things to go haywire just 'cause it really does, uh, everything impacts everything in the

  Michelle: Yes, for sense. Um, and then as far as fluoride, uh, it is a topic [00:18:00] that I think people really should know about. Uh, it's important to know that it is a neurotoxin. So I'd like for you to explain it from your expertise. Like why, um, like how it impacts the body and why, uh, like, why dentists use it. And why it's, um, wise to avoid it now that we know what we know.

  Right now that we, now that we know better, it's time for us to do better. Um. So fluoride. Fluoride is still an effective tool against tooth decay, so it gets incorporated into the tooth enamel so that the crystalline structure of the enamel is harder with fluoride incorporated than without. Um, I. Many biological dentists, many of my peers feel like even that, that hardness is a little misleading and not necessarily an indication of a healthier tooth.

  Um, but [00:19:00] that, that is nuanced and can be debated. Um, it does, it lowers the risk of cavities, but we really had. An over appreciation of the benefits of fluoride over the years. 'cause what we know now when we look back is yes, when fluoride first start started being added to the, to toothpaste and added to water, um, we did see a de decrease in the amount of tooth decay in the country. But then when you go back and you look at countries that did not fluoridate their water, you see the same decrease. So we can't necessarily give all the credit to fluoride in the water. Um, and what we also know is that fluoride is, it's more risky than we once thought. So it will compete with iodine in the thyroid.

  So there's a, a thyroid risk to that. Um, most of my functional [00:20:00] medicine practitioners that refer, refer to me, that's one of the first thing that they want their patients off of. Is there fluoride, toothpaste, um, and fluoride? Anything in the water. 'cause with, when it's in the water, you can't really control the dose or how much you're

  getting. Um, so we know it's not great for the thyroid. It's not great for the pineal gland. There's evidence that it can calcify

  the pineal gland, which is we will gland right up here. Um, and the scariest one to me is the impact on our kids. So, and this is.

  Toni: The IQ

  Michelle: This is not just infant exposure, this is maternal exposure.

  Also, they are finding more and more evidence that increasing exposure to fluoride is correlated with a decrease IQ in our kids, which is terrifying to me.

  Um, and so upsetting because all along it. Their [00:21:00] justification for adding fluoride to the water, it goes against everything that they taught us in school.

  So we were taught that, that if you give something to someone to treat an illness, that that is a medication. So fluoride is added to the water to treat cavities. So it is a medication. Don't let them tell you otherwise. It is a medication. Um. I was also taught that in order to give someone a medication, you have to have proper informed consent.

  No one has the ability to consent to water fluoridation. It's in your water. It's everywhere. So it, I, I have major ethical problems with water fluoridation. Um, and especially knowing that you cannot control the dose when it's in the water. So, 70-year-old grandpa that's drinking one glass of water a day, his daily dose of fluoride is going to be [00:22:00] vastly different than an infant who is drinking formula out of a bottle.

  And that's their, their complete diet is formula made with tap water that's fluoridated. Dose is hugely different. So I have major, major ethical issues with water fluoridation and so fluoride in, in general, uh, is off of my recommended list. We don't need it. I have other tools that I can use and other things that I can.

  Coach you on and point you towards where you don't have to use fluoride to prevent cavities. We can do it other ways. Um, and so I will be very, very glad if the, the current health and human services, uh, division is able to end that countrywide. Right now it's just local government by local government.

  Local government decision, but it would, it would be just amazing if we could end that medical treatment as a whole.

  Toni: [00:23:00] Yeah, because it's not like, um. People can't go out and buy flu, uh, fluoridated toothpaste

  if they wanted to, um, on their own free will. So,

  Michelle: Yes. With informed consent, you know, with guidance from their personal dentist.

  Toni: Yeah. And then as far as re mineralization, I know that there's, um, they do have, like you can see sometimes you'll find a toothpaste that have another, I forget what it's called.

  It's like a heart's pronounced.

  Name, um, of

  Michelle: calcium hydroxy, What is it?

  calcium hydroxy appetite.

  Toni: So,

  but then I was reading about that and because it's like nano, um, that can have, uh, issues too. So I, I have no idea. Um, so what are other ways that people can remineralize if they have very, like, clear, you know, a little bit more like, um, I don't wanna say see through, but like they can see that their teeth are not like [00:24:00] super solid.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's, and I will tell you it's there, there's some sort of weird information war going on where what's, what's healthy is not healthy. What's toxic is not toxic. It, it's very strange and confusing. So what I will tell you is there are two ingredients that are the most effective. Uh, aside from fluoride at remineralizing teeth and those two ingredients are calcium, hydroxyapatite, and xylitol, they have a great track record of effectiveness that rivals fluoride in terms of effectiveness

  and what I you said,

  And xylitol?

  Toni: that, that's in gum. I have xylitol

  gum.

  Michelle: Yes. Yeah. It's in a lot of the more natural toothpaste too. Um. Great data on it. And for both of those ingredients, they [00:25:00] have now been studied for decades and they have decades of good safety records, which is more than we can say for fluoride. So in terms of safety and effectiveness, those two ingredients are

  Toni: They could both help with the Remi Remineralization. So

  probably the easiest way is either having, um, something with xylitol, you know, toothpaste or, or gum.

  Just chewing gum with that would help.

  Michelle: Absolutely. So xylitol is cool. It works in two different ways, so it immediately will increase the pH of your saliva so you can stop that acid attack of whatever you just ate or drank. Um, but over time. The bacteria that cause cavities will ingest it because it's close enough in structure to sugar.

  It's a sugar alcohol from plants. Uh, they'll ingest it, but they can't metabolize it. So those bacteria will start to slip [00:26:00] off the teeth and you'll get this really nice gentle shift in the microbiome over time. Um, so it's fantastic. It's most effective when you use it five times a day. Which seems like a lot, but that's not hard at all because most of them run, they run out of, um, flavor in two seconds, so, you know, it's very easy to want another one.

  Right. That's so true. That is so true. Uh, so usually what I'll do is I'll have my patients do a remineralizing toothpaste morning and night. And so that'll have hydroxyapatite and xylitol typically. Um, and then pick whatever their favorite xylitol product is, whether it's a spray or candy or mints. And I'll have them do that after meals.

  Um, and that really gives us the most bang for the buck that's so easy

  to do. Um, and I, I love that you brought up there is controversy around hydroxyapatite as an ingredient. Um, I [00:27:00] love, love, love that we can have the discussion because I think the discussion is what's often been missing in the fluoride con conversation.

  Uh, we're allowed to discuss it seemed like. Um. So it's a valid discussion to have. And some of the worry is around the smaller particle, the smaller nanoparticle, hydroxy appetite and certain shapes of these nanoparticles. 'cause sometimes they were like needle shaped, a little pointier. So the concern was can these cross the blood brain barrier?

  Can they, there are nanoparticles, so where else can they go besides the teeth? And what we know based on what's actually. Quite a lot of research right now. Um, and, and this has been very well studied by the authorities in the European Union who tend to be a little stricter on the products that they will, um, that they will let the public have access to and what they won't.

  So the European [00:28:00] Union, European Union, um, the work that they did, the research that they did. Found, and this is very, very recent, um, they, where they originally had co concerns with the needle shaped nanoparticles, they were able to find that if it was a nanoparticle that was spherical or cylindrical or rod shaped, that these particles were just fine.

  They, they dissolved in the digestive system really quickly if they were swallowed. They, if they were absorbed into the bloodstream, it was very little and it dissociated into its subsequent particles very easily. Um. It passed very easily. There was nothing significant crossing the blood brain barrier.

  So all of their research found that it, it is really very safe. Um, so is there as much research on hydroxy appetite as fluoride? [00:29:00] No, not quite as much. But also I would say that the, the tilt of the fluoride research was always to prove fluoride is effective. It was. Only more recently focused on the safety of fluoride, whereas Hydroxyapatite has, for one, it's been around for a long time, even in nano form.

  It's been used overseas for 40 years now. Um, and it has always been, all of the research has been focused on safety and effectiveness, so I feel like it, we're having more of these important conversations, and so far it's doing very, very well. And I'm much more comfortable with the safety profile of Hydroxyapatite than I am with fluoride.

  Toni: Got it. And so does it only come in nano uh, form or does it have other ones? And which one do you recommend or does it make a difference?

  Michelle: It, that's a good question too, because it, um, the [00:30:00] micro form is going to be a larger particle than the nano form, so you can get microparticle hydroxyapatite. Usually if it's micro hydroxyapatite, they're just not going to say. They'll just say calcium hydroxyapatite on the ingredient list. Um, if it's nano, they'll often say it, uh, or it'll be somewhere on their website or in their marketing materials that it's a nanoparticle.

  So you'll, you're, you can usually

  tell, um, the micro particle, those larger particles will still be effective at remineralizing, but not as much. The nanoparticle absorbs into the tooth and is able to be incorporated into the tooth structure more easily because it's smaller.

  Toni: Um, I remember getting a powder,

  uh, where you put, basically you wet your toothbrush, you put it in the powder, and then you brush your teeth.

  And that as a remi, mineral mineralization,

  because I don't have fluoride in my toothpaste,[00:31:00]

  so I wanted to have something else. Um, is that something that you recommend, like something like that?

  Words of

  powder or, yeah.

  Michelle: Those are great. The only thing that I would be careful of is, um, like when you're using just straight powders. 'cause I've got a lot of patients who have lots of allergies and chemical sensitivities. So if you're using just a straight powder that's like straight baking soda or something, then I would just say be careful with the, the grittiness used frequently.

  Um, so sometimes. If it's just a plain, single ingredient powder, sometimes it can be a little too abrasive for the enamel. But if you're using like a specific tooth powder, it's usually going to be, um, bentonite clay or activated charcoal. And it's a lot of times going to have some kind of calcium product, whether it's hydroxyapatite or calcium carbonate.

  And those are typically fine. Typically the powders are, um. Are [00:32:00] finer and are less gritty, so totally fine. Um, but if you see any kind of irritation at all, then you might wanna back up just a little bit and do it, you know, maybe three times a week alternate to where you're not being just too aggressive with the gum tissue and with the enamel,

  Toni: Or do toothpaste.

  Michelle: or do Yeah. Um, awesome. And then root canals, you had talked about that. Um.

  Mm-hmm.

  Toni: As it impacts, I guess, inflammation.

  Um, is it kind of similar to what we talked about or is there anything else that people should be aware of?

  Michelle: I mean, they are, root canals are their own special beast because it is, it's so great if you are in pain and hurting a root canal is such a great way to keep a tooth and not feel like you wanna punch somebody's eye out for for a while. If you've ever had a toothache, it can be [00:33:00] horrible. Um, it can send people to the emergency room and does frequently all the time.

  So while it can save the structure of the tooth and often the function of the tooth, it does come with its downsides. And so one of the downside of removing the nerve of the tooth is that you also remove the blood supply. And when you remove the blood supply, then the whole microbiome in the area changes.

  In and around

  the tooth. So instead of the, the normal bacteria that's automatically going to be there without blood to provide oxygen, now it's just the creepy crawly bacteria. The ones who don't like, like oxygen that are going to be there hanging out. And again, kind of like. With mercury, with our toxic bucket, like for, for many people it's just fine and they don't notice any ill effects from that at all.

  But it is, it does create this [00:34:00] mild inflammatory response. It could be an immune system trigger for some people and for some people it can, it can be the thing that might trigger other symptoms elsewhere in the body. Um. Not saying that it's the direct cause or the one and only cause or anything like that, but it can be a trigger just like anything else.

  That's a toxic exposure. So it's important to know that it will create a stress on the body. It is adding to that toxic bucket, not taking away. Um, and so I think it's something that. We should embark on as a, as a patient, it's something that we should embark on carefully and knowing all of our options, and it's something that we can try to avoid if possible.

  Um, and know that there are other options. It, it's just that sometimes those options aren't fun. When it comes down to it. Sometimes it really is a choice between. Doing a root [00:35:00] canal or losing a tooth and then deciding, you know, whether you wanna just have a missing tooth or have an implant or something like that.

  So it's not an easy discussion that we have, but it's one that unfortunately we have to have with patients every day.

  Toni: And biological dentists, they pretty much do the same things.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Toni: It's just, um, in a different way. So like if

  somebody needed, um, a bridge or, you know, just other dental work, you guys

  offer that. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah. We still do traditional dental procedures, but there's that where we know it's going to. Be a burden on the body. We try to do less of them. Um, and root canals is one of those things where you probably will see some difference among different biological dentists, um, because it is a specialized procedure.

  Michelle: So my philosophy in my office is that if I'm, first, I'm going to give you proper informed consent. [00:36:00] So I'm going to give you the pros, the cons, tell you all your different options, tell you what what's likely to happen if you do nothing at all. Um, and then if you decide that you want to have a root canal done, again, it's your decision, it's not mine.

  Um, then I want that to be the best root canal possible, and that means it's done. With a microscope with, you know, more than just normal, general dentist equipment. It's done with a microscope and it's done in the hands of a specialist and not in the hands of me, your general dentist. So I have one group of endodontists and in my, in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

  That, um, that uses ozone and is more holistically minded. And so I have one office that I will refer my patients to when they choose to have root canals and they do a fantastic job.

  Toni: And then my other question actually is, um, what are your thoughts [00:37:00] on, uh, x-rays? Because I know that you guys are aware a lot more than, you know, the mainstream.

  Uh, And I would imagine that would like this pushed back a lot. Yes. to me about that. The benefits, uh, you know, it's kind of, it's always benefit versus risk.

  Michelle: Um, yes, it is always benefit versus rescuer. Absolutely. Right. Um, so we still, uh, for one, there's the legal issue is I am still a dentist with a license, and so I still have to practice according to the standard of care. And so if I saw you without. The, you know, a minimal appropriate amount of x-rays, then I wouldn't be doing my job and my license would literally be at risk.

  Um. So that is, that is one part of the conversation, but also just the ethical, and I wanna take care of my patients question is I really can't see a lot of these issues [00:38:00] without some kind of x-rays. So we, we talk through different options on how can we minimize it, how can we make it work to where it's not so many, um, we can have these conversations, but we, but it has to be a conversation.

  I can't. Not take any x-rays ever, or I, I wouldn't be doing my job and I would be risking my license. And as much as I love you, I need to keep my license so I can keep helping you. Um, so when patients need x-rays, especially if there are are other health concerns or they're worried about the radiation exposure, then we go through, um, different things that you can do to mitigate the exposure to radiation.

  So making sure that you stay hydrated is first and foremost, that's most important. Um, antioxidants are your friend because radiation is oxidizing to the body. Um, and so we want to have antioxidants that [00:39:00] we then have to support the body afterwards. So that means, you know, if we're talking. Minimalist then eating lots of brightly colored fruits and vegetables is a great way to go.

  If you want to supplement. Then we carry some supplements in the office, and those, again are, are really good antioxidants. So liposomal vitamin C, um, glutathione and, uh, we use a, a form of vitamin E, a delta fraction. Tocotrienols is an antioxidant that we keep in the office. And then when we can get it,

  it's a little harder to, for fertility too,

  so there you go.

  Yes. We gotta protect ourselves from the free radical damage and, uh, and sometimes we can find homeopathics and sometimes we can't. But, uh, but homeopathics are another option too. It's the, the kind that was most readily available is a little harder to find now. So we have to, we don't always have it in stock ourselves.

  Toni: Yeah. [00:40:00] Interesting. And then, um, what are just some tips that you can give people? Like if they're listening, what are some things that people should really consider? Either on a daily basis on taking care of their teeth, flossing, anything that you can kind of give also one, one other thing is, uh, I know that certain flosses, the actual or the picks they have like, um, a type of plastic that's not great,

  you know, so there's all kinds of things I guess you can talk about, but what comes

  Michelle: If you can, if you can find a, a more natural fiber floss, then that is ideal. Um. If you can avoid the, the ones that are like Teflon coated, then that would be ideal. Some of the, the floss sticks are actually coated in fluoride, believe it or not. Um, so if you are wanting to avoid fluoride, just know that you gotta look at packaging.

  'cause sometimes even your floss has fluoride in it, stuff is everywhere. Um. [00:41:00] So, so yes, getting something to clean in between your teeth is crucial. More than just brushing. You've gotta have something in between your teeth. Um, if it's, if you just know, if you just know yourself and you know that flossing is not gonna happen, then then get a water pick.

  A water pick will change your

  Toni: Are there ones you recommend? Because brands like, um, 'cause I've looked into them and my daughter's very resistant to the one that I picked. She's like, it's really annoying. It's hard to do. And so, I don't know, is there anything that you recommend?

  Michelle: How old is your daughter? She must

  Toni: She's a teenager. Um, you know, it's like you would think she's old enough to like figure it out, but you know, doesn't always happen.

  Michelle: Yeah. I have two teenage girls. I completely understand. Uh, so I like the water pick brand. Uh, but really it. Whatever you can find that is, is used is going to be my favorite, but the water pick brand works [00:42:00] really well.

  Um, let's see. Other question? Oh, I would say, you know, aside from everything else, uh, if most of your audience is concerned with fertility and making sure that we have a healthy pregnancy.

  I really, really, really want everyone to understand the concept of preconception dentistry because I really believe that preconception dentistry is so vitally important. If you are, if you are struggling with fertility, struggling to keep a pregnancy to term, then absolutely it's not too late. Please come and, and see a, a dentist, a, a biological dentist if you can, because so many of these issues that are impacting pregnancy are directly related to what's going on in your mouth.

  There are specific bacteria that we will find on a saliva test that's really easy to do. [00:43:00] There are specific strains of bacteria that are directly correlated to fertility problems, a higher rate of miscarriage, um, to low birth weight. Um. All of these things that are just so, so important. And if you can get ahead of it and if you can take care of before you're trying to get pregnant, then that is ideal.

  Um, because once you, once you do get pregnant, then it's, we still need to take care of things, but the, then we have to worry about timing of what we're doing. You know, we don't wanna do certain things in first trimester if we can't like it. It gets more complicated after you're pregnant. So preconception care.

  I just hope everyone, everyone remembers it. That if nothing else from today is a smart, certified dentist for your amalgam fillings and preconception care, uh, to make sure that your mouth is healthy and supports you having a [00:44:00] healthy pregnancy. Um, and then in terms of what you can do at home, it doesn't have to be complicated.

  So a simple clean toothpaste is. Totally fine. You know, if it's got the, the fewer ingredients the better usually. So you don't need fluoride. You don't need a ton of like weird antimicrobials. You don't need to kill germs with your toothpaste. Just something simple. Is totally fine. Use something in between your teeth and then you don't need to have a mouthwash, especially if it's like a really strong alcohol based mouthwash that's like bright blue or bright

  green. You don't need that stuff. Um, if you feel like you absolutely have to have a mouthwash, make your own, um, it could be literally just salt water that you keep in a little mason jar by your sink. That's one way to do it. Um, it could be salt water with a [00:45:00] little bit of baking soda and a little bit of powdered xylitol that you can keep by your sink, and that could be your mouthwash.

  Like it doesn't need to be fancy. Um, uh, and really just keep it simple. Like everything, go back to basics, all, all the normal things and make sure that your, that your diet, your hydration, all those things are, are on point too.

  Toni: And what are your thoughts on meme?

  Michelle: I like it.

  I like it. It can be effective. It's effective at soothing some of the inflammation and the gum tissue. So I like meme products and, and meme oil. Although I think, if I'm remembering right, it's been a while since I've used it. It doesn't taste all that No, you're right. Yeah. It's like a, it's like herbal medicine, but you know, it is, uh, it's an Ayurvedic, um,

  Toni: uh, herbs and herb and it's really beneficial. But, um,

  this is

  Michelle: Kind of like oil pulling, like the, the traditional Ayurvedic method of oil [00:46:00] pulling is with sesame oil. Um, and ew, like I, I did it once just so I could. See what all the hype is about. That's the only method of oil pulling that's been studied in the literature. Uh, so I like the idea of oil pulling with coconut oil.

  That is much more pleasant to the palette, much less disgusting in my personal opinion,

  Toni: Yes.

  Michelle: but it hasn't been studied as much. Right. so so also, and we've got cause it's like the idea is the same. It's really just getting oil to

  Toni: kind of like remove any gunk

  between your teeth,

  Michelle: Yes. And coconut oil. Oil has its own benefits. It's antifungal it, all the good stuff. So yes,

  Toni: Awesome. Well, they gotta start doing some studies on that.

  Um, but this is great. This is such a, I think it's a really important topic that. Can often be overlooked. So thank you so much for your expertise and [00:47:00] great tips and uh, I'm sure a lot of people are learning so much from this, just listening to this.

  So thank you so much Dr. Toni, and um,

  Michelle: Oh, you're so welcome. it was a great conversation.

  Thank you for having me.

Ep 368 The Unseen Intelligence Guiding Your Fertility Journey

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle offers a heartfelt dose of hope for anyone feeling discouraged, exhausted, or unsure on their fertility journey. Drawing from years of experience as a fertility acupuncturist and coach, Michelle shares powerful stories from her clinic. These stories include women who were told their chances were low, who received discouraging lab results, or who felt their bodies were failing them, yet still went on to conceive.

This episode explores the often overlooked unseen intelligence guiding your fertility. This includes the subtle signs, inner wisdom, emotional landscape, and spiritual connection that influence your body just as much as lab numbers do. Michelle also dives into the science behind belief and emotional states, referencing insights from cellular biologist Bruce Lipton and psychologist Dr. Lisa Miller to bridge the gap between spirituality and physiology.

If you are craving reassurance, perspective, and a reminder that your journey is still unfolding in ways you may not yet see, this episode is for you.

Key Takeaways: 

• Your fertility journey is shaped by both the physical and the unseen. Numbers matter, but they are not the whole story.

• Lab values are only a snapshot in time. They can and often do change.

• Miraculous pregnancies can and do happen, even after discouraging diagnoses.

• Emotional and spiritual alignment deeply influence your physiology and hormonal environment.

• Belief, joy, and hope are not only comforting. They are biologically impactful.

• Your body operates through an extraordinary intelligence that we are only beginning to understand.

• Connecting with your spirit baby or inner guidance can open doors in unexpected ways.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  # 368 The Unseen Intelligence Guiding Your Fertility Journey

  Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 368 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be bringing you a dose of hope. If you're on the fertility journey, I know that sometimes things can feel like you're really having to. Work extra hard to just hold on to some faith that something that hasn't yet happened will actually happen.

  And I know that this can be one of the hardest challenges on the fertility journey. So if you find that you're feeling this way and you need a dose of hope, stay tuned.

  [00:01:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: So today I'm gonna actually talk really right from the heart as a fertility acupuncturist and fertility coach. So I've had many different clients and patients that I'm working with in my clinic who are trying to conceive, and many of these patients and clients have been trying for sometimes over five years, sometimes over two years, and sometimes just six months, and are still feeling this same feeling.

  When is it going to happen? So I wanna talk about many different things and some of the things that I've seen and noticed as a practitioner. Some of the things that I've noticed as I was walking side by side with my patients and really going through the journey with them. I've had patients that have come to me for over a year and really felt the calling of their.

  Spare baby, like really, really would get these incredible signs and would not know why they're [00:02:00] getting these signs and nothing is happening. And eventually those same people did in fact get pregnant, and I'm happy to announce that sometimes I get these amazing pictures of their babies that are healthy.

  So. Even though I've been with them at those times that they felt it literally would be an impossible thing to happen. And some of these people have also gone to doctors and have been told that the only way they would work with them is if they got egg donor. Now, there's nothing wrong with egg donor, and many people actually do really well with finding an egg donor or an embryo donor.

  Those specific people just felt like that was not gonna be their path. So I'm gonna talk a little bit more on the esoteric levels and aspects of the fertility journey and how sometimes things can be invisible. What is working can be invisible. And then some of the things that we think is so real, like the labs and the numbers, and [00:03:00] we put so much of our faith into that can be a snapshot in time and it can also not be the end all be all.

  So today I'm gonna cover a lot of those aspects and really just give you a dose of hope because. I've seen so many cases where people were given diagnoses and also no hope by the practitioners and the team that they were working with. And now that is not to put down anybody on the team, and it's not to put down any doctors.

  This is just what they are trained to work with. And sometimes what we're trained to work with is really one aspect of reality, which is our labs, but that doesn't mean that everything should hang on those numbers. Let me explain why. I recently had a patient, which I'm just amazed by myself, and believe it or not, even though I've seen pretty [00:04:00] amazing stories happen and I've seen people defy the odds, and what I mean by that is defy what they've been told as really being their projection or their predictions of their future.

  Even though I've seen pretty miraculous and amazing stories, I still to this day get really surprised when I see some of the things that I see. And so my recent patient, and this is very, very recent, she was somebody who had a very high stress life. She had gone through a lot and she had a very demanding job.

  And sometimes that job would be overnights. And she so desperately wanted to have a baby. She really, really has been trying a year and a half, and she had gotten pregnant actually a year ago, and shortly after she miscarried. And so now she came after a year and. Was getting her period normally, and her [00:05:00] hormone levels were in a good range.

  FSH was at a good place. Her TSH, her thyroid was normal and then normal for fertility, and her A MH was normal. However, she had a couple of months before stopped getting her period and just never got it back. So she was freaking out because. She wasn't understanding why all of a sudden she stopped getting her period.

  And of course she wasn't pregnant and she went to a doctor and we had already started working together. And then afterwards she went to a doctor, a new REI, uh, really nice guy. She's really still very happy with him. But what happened was when she got her labs, her labs showed that her FSH was through the roof and her aim H really plummeted.

  So she was really worried and the doctor said, listen, you know, the only thing that I'm thinking is that you're probably entering menopause. You're not getting your period. Your numbers are not really reflecting a fertile time. And then [00:06:00] also. You'll probably do better with an egg donor. And he actually diagnosed her with premature ovarian failure.

  And what's crazy is he did another lab and then found that her HCG, which is the pregnancy hormone, was at a very low amount. And he said, well, you know, this could be just an abnormal thing. Then she took a test at home and then saw that it was slightly positive, and I'm thinking, okay, I don't know that I've seen many.

  False positives. This doesn't really make sense that you wouldn't be pregnant based on this. Then she went again and her HCG like really went up and then she went again, and it just keeps going really high. And at one point her progesterone was low, which would make sense if she's under a lot of high stress.

  So he put her on progesterone and it just kept going high to the point where the doctor said. You know what? I don't think that I'm gonna be so quick to say premature [00:07:00] ovarian failure. Maybe I'll say insufficiency, and it really gave him pause because at one point I think he was just based on the numbers, really dismissing that she could possibly get pregnant with her own eggs.

  But sure enough, she is pregnant right now and she never got her period. She must have just ovulated and during that time just went straight to pregnancy. Then I've had another patient who got off of birth control and she had not had her period for about seven months. She was diagnosed with PCOS, and that could be kind of like, um, a fake out that happens sometimes after going on the birth control pill.

  And then again, started coming to me and then she ended up ovulating or noticing that she was ovulating where she, whereas before she was taking Clomid and nothing was helping. And she ended up going straight into pregnancy. And so many times I see people in this with such a range, um, such a [00:08:00] different background, such a variety of different stories.

  And really the one thing that. They have in common is, you know, not really seeing the results and having to find some kind of belief. But the truth is, even though sometimes it feels like you're not believing, the fact that you're listening to this, the fact that, uh, my patients are coming to me or people are actually choosing to come to me, knowing that I'm helping with fertility, means that somewhere in their minds they see a potential, a potential of themselves getting pregnant.

  Because otherwise they wouldn't do it. And that's something to always consider because sometimes you might say to yourself, I'm losing hope. But the fact that you're actually doing things and looking into things to try to conceive means that there's gotta be some kind of hope in there. And there's gotta be some kind of faith in your ability to conceive.

  Otherwise, you wouldn't really be putting any effort whatsoever. So there's gotta [00:09:00] be something inside of you that's telling you that there is potential for your conception and for you to have a baby. And that's really what I wanted to talk about today is really having faith in the unseen. And so many times we're conditioned, we're really living in a world that we are so reactive to just the material world, and we put so much emphasis on the numbers, on the data and the information that sometimes this can cause us to ignore a huge aspect.

  Of reality, which is behind the scenes. It's the intelligence that runs the show. And I always talk about this intelligence that runs the show is evident in ourselves. It's evident because when we have stem cells, which means that. Really, it's like the form of cells that all cells begin at. And I remember having Bruce Lipton and he was talking about how all cells [00:10:00] begin as stem cells, but what changes them?

  What makes them differentiate? If they all have the same blueprint of DNA, what's the difference? Why do some stem cells become liver cells and why do some become fat cells and others become heart cells or, or skin cells? What's the difference, the environment? So Bruce Lipton is a cellular biologist, and he did studies where he would take different stem cells and put them in Petri dishes and would create or alter the environments in which they grew, and those environments impacted how the cell would express itself.

  So all cells start with a blueprint of the DNA. So if the DNA was everything and nothing else mattered, then. Everything would end up being the same because they all have the same DNA, but there has to be something that's instructing those cells to develop the way they are. So what he's [00:11:00] saying is that it's the environment and what impacts this environment is our thoughts.

  So the Biology of Belief is his book, and he talked about how our thoughts can impact and inform our bodies to create hormones. So if it's stressful thoughts, it can cause cortisol to rise and stress hormones, and that can impact the cells. That could be your Petri dish internally because that's your blood.

  And there are studies that were done on watching comedies besides the fact that it helps with transfer rates, which is a huge deal, but it also helps with regulating your immune system. So we know that emotions and emotional states really impact our body. So these are things that are all behind the scenes.

  They work behind the scenes. And Dr. Lisa Miller, she does research on how our belief in something bigger than ourselves or having some kind of spirituality in our life or spiritual practice can [00:12:00] impact our brains and protect our brains from depression. So we're seeing that. Belief in something that is much bigger can impact our emotions and those emotions impact our physiology.

  And so just because we don't place a lot of importance in this in our everyday life doesn't mean it's not worthy of your attention. And it does not mean that this isn't something that you should be considering, especially if you're trying to conceive. And as a woman, we're channels. We are channels and our bodies are channels to bring in new life.

  So having that channel feeling aligned, feeling receptive, is incredibly important. And I see this aspect of our bodies and our minds and our spirits oftentimes so ignored and so much more faith goes into the numbers and the analytics, which change. [00:13:00] They changed like the wind. I've seen them change. They changed really based on lifestyle and it's a snapshot in time.

  And from that snapshot, we can put so much importance into it. And so this is why I felt the need to talk about this, the need to talk about having faith in your body. Having faith in something that is much bigger than us. And so going back to how our cells operate and those intelligence that. Tells and instructs what our cells become.

  You know how they end up expressing themselves. That is this divine intelligence that runs in your system. And there was a saying that many scientists go into science because they don't believe in a greater intelligence because they think that everything's matter. And once they go back, it actually kind of brings them back to.

  The creator, once they start to study [00:14:00] and see even with the body, that there's so much more than meets the eye, that actually proves itself. So if you really, really wanna look and you see how much intelligence runs the show and how there's a mathematical equation to every living form, and you can see things like the Fibonacci sequence showing itself throughout nature, you can realize that things are not as random as we may think.

  And so this is kind of food for thought to realize that having faith. Not just in our process, not just in our lives, but really in something greater than us. Having faith in a creator will also infuse the faith we have in our own bodies. So personally, I do think it's very important to have some kind of spiritual practice, and that does not mean to be religious.[00:15:00]

  It just means to really. Be in awe of our own creation and that we have been born from something so much greater than ourselves. And I hesitated on talking about this because sometimes it can bring up so many different emotions 'cause everybody has a different perspective. But. If I share this as really something that I see oftentimes just with my own work, and also it happens to be that when people connect with their spirit, babies and I had Tori Quizzing on, she was the first guest in our new membership, the Wholesome Fertility Collective, which is a very, very affordable way to get.

  Coaching online every month, and she was our first guest and she is also a spirit baby medium. She talked a lot about spirit babies, and she said that once you make that connection, it really opens the door. And I see this, I actually see it, and [00:16:00] I see miraculous signs coming from my patients, and the signs come so clearly that it becomes almost more clear.

  Then if they're ever gonna get pregnant. And even for me as a practitioner, even though I've seen so many success stories, I still question like, when is it gonna happen? You know, I get really excited and I get also emotionally attached to my patients' stories that sometimes I'm like, when is it gonna happen?

  Is it gonna happen? And I, and I do pray for my patients, so. One of my patients had these incredible signs for months and months and months, and she finally conceived and it was random. It kind of fell outta nowhere because she was about to do her second retrieval. Her first retrieval failed, and it seems random, but it's not random.

  Everything happens for a reason. I've even seen incredible stories and I've had 'em on my podcast where people. Would have their babies and their babies would, and this happened two times, would be born on a certain date [00:17:00] and that date corresponded to the signs that they had before they even conceived, which is mind blowing.

  So those are the kind of things that happen and it makes you think and pause like, is there something else running the show? Is there something else behind the scenes? And is my belief. That's something else. Will that open the door for more miracles? Will that open the door to help me be a better channel?

  I personally believe the answer to that is yes. So my reason for doing this episode is really. To share some of my stories, share some of my findings, and just to mention, even though I love the spirituality aspect, I also love bridging it with science because now we are starting to see things and measure things that we originally did not have access to.

  And I think that that also. Almost sheds light on the fact that there [00:18:00] really is something behind the scenes and we can start to see this through research and evidence, and we can see that visualization makes a difference, that belief makes a difference, and that emotional states make a difference.

  Getting into states of joy and watching comedies, it releases a lot of the tension that we can build up in our bodies. And Chinese medicine talks about that tension. It talks about how constricting ourselves really constricts that life force vitality, this incredible intelligence in our body, which is referred to as she or prana, depending on the background.

  One is from India and one is from China, but they talk about the same thing and that life force vitality, it wants to flow, it wants to move, but we get stuck in a certain state of mind. But believe it or not, even though it doesn't feel this way, our state of mind is malleable. It is something that we actually have [00:19:00] control over.

  It doesn't feel that way. It feels like it controls us, but there are tools and ways that you can get back your control, and I do often teach this to both my clients online and my patients in person. And if you're ever curious or wanna find out more, you can always book a call with my team on my website.

  And many of my other podcast episodes are really about getting that power and that empowerment back into your life. So I really do hope that this episode triggered some sense of hope in you because I will tell you just based on my experience, there is so much more than meets the eye. And even with Chinese medicine, we do learn that the spirit is connected to the body and that the spirit.

  Of a person matters. So thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you benefited from this episode, and I [00:20:00] will see you next time.

  [00:21:00]

Ep 367 5 Ways Science Proves You’re More Powerful Than You Think

What if the most powerful tool for boosting fertility has been inside you all along? In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle reveals five science backed truths that prove your thoughts, emotions, nervous system, and energy hold far more influence over your fertility than you may realize.

Drawing from research in psychoneuroimmunology, HeartMath studies, quantum biology, and epigenetics, Michelle explains how your mind and body work together to shape hormonal balance, ovulation, and overall reproductive health. You will learn why your inner dialogue affects your cells, how stress disrupts the HPO axis, why a regulated nervous system improves conception rates, and how intention can shift your biology at the energetic level.

If you have been feeling discouraged or disconnected from your body, this episode will help you reconnect to your innate wisdom and remind you that your fertility is not just physical. It is influenced by your emotional wellbeing, your beliefs, and the energy you bring to your healing journey.

Tune in and discover how powerful you truly are.

Key Takeaways: 

• Your thoughts create real, measurable physical change in the body

• Emotions communicate with every cell and shape your hormonal landscape

• The nervous system is the master conductor of reproductive health

• Your energy and intention influence biological responses

• You are capable of rewriting your genetic and emotional patterns
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  # 5 Ways Science Proves You’re More Powerful Than You Think (1)

  [00:00:00] Episode number 367 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I wanna talk about something that we all need to be reminded of, especially if you've been trying to conceive for a while and you've had moments of doubt or frustration. You are far more powerful than you think. When we're on a fertility journey, it can feel like everything depends on numbers.

  Hormone levels, follicles, test results. And while those things matter, they're only part of the story because the truth is your body isn't a machine that needs fixing. It's a field of consciousness, it's energy, intelligence, and life force in motion. And today I wanna share five things that prove you are super powerful and not in some abstract way, but in ways that are scientifically and energetically real.

  [00:01:00] Wondered whether your thoughts, emotions, or beliefs actually matter in this process? The answer is a resounding yes. Number one, your thoughts create physical change. So let's start with one of the most mind blowing truths. Your thoughts literally shape your biology. The field of psycho neuroimmunology, which studies the link between your mind, your nervous system, and your immune system has proven this over and over.

  Dr. Canis Pert, who was one of the pioneers in this research. Discovered that neuropeptides, which are chemical messengers of emotion travel throughout the entire body. Every thought, every [00:02:00] belief, and every internal dialogue you have sends messages to yourselves. One famous study led by Dr. Ellen Langer at Harvard showed this in a profound way, she placed a group of elderly men in an environment designated to feel like it was 20 years earlier.

  So the music, the magazines, decor, and even the conversations were all from their younger years and after just one week, these men showed measurable changes, which are improved vision, posture, hearing, and even muscle strength. Their body's responded to what their minds believed to be true. Now, imagine applying that to fertility if perception can influence aging.

  Imagine what believing in your body's ability to conceive can do when you shift from thoughts like, my body is failing me to my body is wise, and it's learning what it needs. You change the entire chemical environment in [00:03:00] which your cells operate. From a traditional Chinese medicine perspective, that's the she or spirit at work.

  When the she is calm and clear, this impacts a state of your heart. And has a trickle effect to your entire body. Hormones can balance, Q can flow, and the womb becomes more receptive with this heart opening. So yes, your thoughts matter, and every loving, trusting thought is a signal of safety that your body responds to.

  So number two, your emotions communicate with every cell. Have you ever felt butterflies in your stomach when you're excited or a heaviness in your chest? When you're sad or anxious, that's your body responding to your thoughts. So research from the HeartMath Institute has shown that your heart has its own nervous system and electromagnetic field, and one that extends several feet beyond your body.

  And that field changes based on your emotional [00:04:00] state. So when you experience gratitude or compassion, your heart rhythm becomes more coherent. And that means your brain and your heart synchronize and your body shifts into a healing state, and this directly impacts fertility because when your nervous system is calm and your heart rhythm is coherent, blood flow to the uterus improves.

  Cortisol levels drop and your reproductive hormones balance. In Chinese medicine, emotions are inseparable from physical health. The liver governs the free flow of qi, which is your life force vitality, and when we're frustrated or tense. That flow can stagnate, which can delay ovulation and the spleen associated with worry influences, digestion and nutrient absorption.

  Both key for egg quality and the kidneys. The root of fertility are weakened by chronic fear. So when you nurture your emotional wellbeing, you're not [00:05:00] just soothing your mind, you're optimizing your reproductive system. It's not just about avoiding emotions, it's actually about allowing them to move because emotions are energy and motion.

  When that energy flows, life force vitality in turn can flow. And number three, your nervous system holds the key to hormonal harmony. Here's one of the biggest truth I wish every woman knew. Your nervous system is the master conductor of your hormones. Your reproductive system is governed by something called the HPO Access.

  That's the hypothalamic. Pituitary ovarian access, and it's like a conversation between your brain and your ovaries, but that conversation is deeply influenced by stress levels. And so when you're in fight or flight, your body prioritizes survival over reproduction, cortisol rises and it suppresses the hormone GNRH, which is what [00:06:00] triggers ovulation.

  This isn't your body betraying you, it's actually protecting you. It's saying this isn't a safe time to create, but the moment you shift into parasympathetic mode, which is rest and digest state, your body receives a message. It's safe now in a 2011 study published in Fertility and sterility. It showed that women who participated in mind body programs for stress reduction had a 52% conception rate within a year compared to 20% in the control group.

  That's more than double acupuncture, meditation, gentle breath work. These are not luxuries when it comes to fertility health. Their nervous system medicine, they tell your brain and ovaries, you can communicate again. That's when magic happens. Ovulation, normalizes, cycles regulate and conception can be more supported.

  And number four, your energy field [00:07:00] responds to intention. Yes, you heard that correctly. Quantum physics has revealed something. Ancient. Wisdom has always known. Everything is energy. The famous double split experiment, scientists found that the act of observation simply paying attention changes how subatomic particles behave.

  So your focus is a creative force, and that means your body, your womb, your cells, they're responding to your attention when you place your hands over your womb. Breathe into it with love and gratitude, you're creating a physiological change. Studies by Dr. Herbert Benson at Harvard have shown that meditation and visualization can activate what he called the relaxation response, which turns on genes associated with fertility and healing while turning off.

  Genes linked to stress and inflammation. Your intention changes your biology. And [00:08:00] traditional Chinese medicine has said this for thousands of years, where the mind goes, Q follows, when your thoughts rest in the womb with compassion and trust, energy follows circulation increases and your body's creative potential can expand.

  Number five, you can rewrite your biological story. And this last one might be the most empowering of all. Science used to tell us that our genes determine everything, but we now know that is not the full story. The study of epigenetics, which literally means. Above the genes shows that your environment, beliefs, and emotions can turn genes on or off.

  Dr. Bruce Lipton's research demonstrated when you change your emotional and energetic environment, you can change how your DNA expresses itself. You're not a prisoner of your genetics. You are the author [00:09:00] of how they play out a study published in Nature. Neuroscience even showed that stress in one generation can influence fertility in the next, but that this effect can be reversed through nurturing, safety, and emotional healing.

  That means your healing work now, your mindfulness, your self love. Your trusts can actually shift patterns that may have been carried through generations. You are breaking cycles, not just for yourself, but for your lineage. So when you choose to believe that your body is capable of creating life, you're not just hoping you're rewriting your biology.

  And let's remember, you are not separate from the intelligence that creates life. You are. Intelligence, here are your five reminders of power. Your thoughts create physical change. Your emotions communicate with every cell. [00:10:00] Your nervous system governs your fertility. Your energy field responds to intention and you can rewrite your biological story.

  Your fertility journey is not about forcing your body to work. It's about remembering that it knows how to and when you align your mind, emotions, and energy with that truth. Your body responds. If this episode resonated with you and you wanna explore more of these principles, I invite you to join me inside the wholesome fertility collective.

  It's a space where women come together to reconnect with your body's wisdom, and remember that creation is their nature because you, yes, you are not broken. You are powerful beyond measure, and your body's divine intelligence is always. Listening. Thank you so much for joining me today. If you love this episode, please share it with someone who needs to be reminded of their power.

  And as always, [00:11:00] I will see you next week right here on the Wholesome Fertility Podcast.

  [00:12:00]

Ep 366 The Parasite Conversation No One’s Having (But Should Be)

In this eye-opening episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle sits down with Kim Rogers, also known as “The Worm Queen,” to have the parasite conversation no one’s having but absolutely should.

A seasoned Western medicine professional turned holistic wellness educator, Kim shares her journey from battling endometriosis, mold toxicity, and Lyme disease to founding RogersHood Apothecary and developing the viral ParaFy Parasite Cleanse Kit.

Together, Michelle and Kim dive into the hidden world of parasites, mold, and heavy metals, and how these often-overlooked culprits could be affecting your digestion, mood, skin, and even fertility. You’ll learn how exposure happens, why binders and biofilm-busting herbs are key, and when cleansing is safe and beneficial, especially if you’re trying to conceive or preparing for IVF.

If you’ve ever felt unwell despite “normal” labs, this episode will change how you see your body’s internal ecosystem and empower you to take charge of your health from the inside out.

Key Takeaways: 

• Discover how hidden parasites and toxins could be silently impacting your fertility, mood, and digestion.

• Learn why “cleaning your soil” may be the missing piece in your preconception or IVF journey.

• Find out the surprising everyday sources of parasites, from pets to produce, and how to protect yourself.

• Understand why binders and biofilm-busting herbs are essential for safe and effective detoxing.

• Hear how Kim’s viral ParaFy cleanse is helping thousands reclaim their energy, clarity, and overall wellness.

Guest Bio:

Kim Rogers is a seasoned wellness professional with over 20 years of experience in Western medicine. After facing her own health challenges including endometriosis, parasites, Lyme disease, and mold poisoning, Kim transitioned from pharmaceuticals to natural healing. She co-founded RogersHood Apothecary in 2021, where she now serves as CEO and creator of the globally recognized ParaFy Parasite Cleanse Kit.

Her viral success on TikTok and Instagram brought global attention to parasite cleansing and holistic detoxification. Through transparency and education, Kim continues to inspire millions to take control of their health and become their own advocates. She also hosts the podcast What’s Eating U?!, where she explores the intersections of wellness, environmental toxins, and personal empowerment.

Use coupon code FERTILITY for 10% off at rogershood.com/ref/3077

Links and resources:

• Visit Kim’s website: rogershood.com/ref/3077

• Follow Kim on Instagram: @mrsrogers.hood

• Connect with Kim on Facebook: Kim Rogers

• Watch Kim’s podcast What’s Eating U?! on YouTube:youtube.com/@Whatseatingupodcast

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  # TWF: EP 366 Kim Rogers

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 366 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I'm joined by Kim Rogers, AKA, the worm queen, a veteran of western medicine turned natural wellness educator and CEO of Rogers Hood apothecary. After navigating endometriosis, parasites, lime, and mold.

  Kim created the viral parasite cleanse, and now teaches millions how cleaning the soil, which is addressing parasites, mold, candida, and heavy metals can shift stubborn symptoms from digestion and skin to mood and fertility. We'll break down what parasites actually are, how exposure happens, and why binders and biofilm busting herbs matter and when it's appropriate to cleanse or not cleanse, especially if you're.

  Trying to conceive or doing IVF if your labs look normal, but you still [00:01:00] feel like something else is going on, this episode is for you.

  Welcome to the podcast, Kim.

  Kim: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here and to chat about all of this.

  Michelle: Yes. I'm so excited to have you. This is really the first of its kind of this conversation, and I'm super excited. When I saw your information, I was like, wow, this is actually. I think information that a lot of people need to know about, including me, I'm excited to learn. So before we get started, I always like to start with an origin story, like how you got into this work and really how you discovered it in your own journey.

  Kim: Well, I don't know if [00:02:00] I would say I got into it. I think I was told by the universe that this is what I was meant to do, and so

  Michelle: I.

  love those kinds because they're always good.

  Kim: The navigating of it, you're like, really? Like even this morning because so for some of you guys that don't know who I am, my name is Kim Rogers and I'm known online as the Worm Queen, and I hold that title very dear to my heart. I've made merch around it, like it's really a fun title. Such a yucky subject that people don't really want to talk about.

  But I'm happy to talk about it. I'm one of those people that at the dinner party that if you don't wanna hear it, you should leave. 'cause I'm gonna say it no matter what.

  Michelle: I love it.

  Kim: I've always been that way and now it's just worse. 'cause I talk about worms all day, right? Like I talk about poop and worms and it.

  Poop is really not my favorite topic to talk about. However, it does go hand in hand with the worms. So you know, it's like you kind of have to take the good with the bad. Alright, so [00:03:00] I went viral on TikTok in 2021 and I went a viral over a parasite cleanse, and that's why I was known. That's why I'm known as the Worm Queen.

  My community over there crowned me the Worm Queen, so that. I could go forward with something fun for a gross and an under talked about topic and Western medicine doesn't talk about it. And shockingly enough over the last few years, the wellness community doesn't talk about this either, and they don't understand that in order for our actual wellness.

  To happen. You need to clean your soil. And cleaning your soil means you really need to do parasite cleansing and mold cleansing and get in there and really clean the soil out. And I'm gonna go over why on this podcast. It's so important to clean your soil. And if you don't do that, how sometimes it can be a waste of time and it can also really not.

  Do a service for you, you're thinking you're doing [00:04:00] all the right things. And in reality there's just like a few things you really have to do in order to make your health go to the next level. And that's what I found out when I was on my journey. So I come from Western medicine, I am a Western medicine refugee, is what we kind of been jokingly talking about it with.

  I've been in it since 2004. I hold two healthcare degrees. I ran 25 medical colleges. I was a professor. I've authored medical books. I've served on advisory boards. I've written national certifications. I worked in the emergency room. I did insurance. So I really have been very well-rounded in Western medicine versus just.

  Going viral on TikTok. I just happened to go viral on TikTok on something that I really could speak about 'cause it has to do with the human body. So I've been doing that since 2019 and my own health declined rapidly in 2019, and I [00:05:00] set us up so that I could go out to our recreational property to either say goodbye or to figure out what was wrong with my body.

  And that's what we did. So in 2019, we headed out to a piece of recreational property to build a log home. And when I got out there, I was doing a pretty good job. I felt a little bit better. I got away from the stress. I started navigating with mushrooms and really getting off of my big pharma me. But I still wasn't at an optimal level in 2021 than I wanted to be.

  I wasn't pooping regularly, which is a huge concern for myself. And actually, you should be concerned too, if you're not pooping on a regular basis, it means something's going on internally. My skin was a wreck and I have really great skin, and so I really wanted to know what else was going on, and I was on TikTok.

  I had a small account that I was teaching people how to build a log home and grow mushrooms. So I had around 10,000 [00:06:00] followers. I did a cleanse because I came across the gal's video that said I almost unli myself over worms, and it stopped me in my tracks and I thought, you know. It's possible, like it's possible that a lot of my symptoms are because I could have parasites.

  I flare during the full moon, and I have a lot of the issues that she was talking about, specifically mental health issues. So I ordered what she was talking about, and within three days I saw roundworm, flukes, and pinworms in the toilet, and I didn't even have to dig. They literally were just sitting on the top of the water just pointing at me basically like, girl, this has been your problem for decades.

  And I have done this every day since then. I have talked about parasites 1,488 days in a row. I've never taken a day off.

  Michelle: That's

  Kim: important. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: Oh, big time. Important. I have so many questions [00:07:00] already. Wow. That's crazy. Okay, so. How do people get parasites besides like, is it raw foods? Like what is it?

  Kim: It's all of that. It's raw foods. Your pets, I would say a hundred percent of pet owners that have never de-worm themselves, have worms from their dogs. I had the same worms as my dogs, but I also had a parasite from the water. So water is a way to get a parasite and not just a parasite. So let me give you the definitions of what parasites are.

  The definition of the umbrella word parasite is anything that feeds off a host and in Latin terms, an unwanted dinner guest. So you have an umbrella.

  Michelle: You make, you make me laugh.

  Kim: See, you gotta like, it's serious, but you gotta

  Michelle: No, I know, I know.

  Kim: What are we gonna say here? And be

  Michelle: I know. It's serious, but It's just, yeah.

  Kim: It's serious. Like you just have to go.

  It's so serious, like pointing and like seriousness. [00:08:00] So if you look at then what happens underneath the parasites, there's lots of different words. There's protozoa, which is a parasite that's microscopic, that's usually found in the water. So I had Cryptosporidium parm, which is parvo, which on a live puppies, and my husband had D fried G leaves.

  Which is a sister to Giardia. We all know what Giardia is. We've heard it. When you have a water break at your house, you have to boil your water. They're just afraid you're gonna catch a parasite, right? And that they don't have good testing. So they can't give you a guarantee that in fact you didn't catch it from the water break.

  So. That's where we caught some of our parasites. But then there's nematodes and nematodes are physical worms, roundworm, tape worm, whipworm pin worms, all of the physical worms. And our country doesn't test our water for nematodes. And those are the physical worms. We had nematodes in our water and hoodsport, and it's a [00:09:00] well that services.

  Thousands of people in that community. And I've also tested my water here in Seattle and tested positive for nematodes too. And as I've done dug down deeper, I find out our country doesn't actually test for physical worms in our water and they only test for protozoas. So now that everybody understands the difference, there is a significant difference in the two types of parasites.

  That you would do a parasite cleanse for? Right. We're not trying. My paras purify is not for lice and scabies. It is helpful, but that's also under the word parasites, but they're in their own definition. So now that everybody kind of has an understanding of what the differences, it really does help when you're.

  Thinking about where you can catch a parasite. So a lot of dogs will go out and they'll lick everything, and then they have microscopic parasites that can go onto you and absorb into your skin when you let them lick on you, [00:10:00] or if they're laying with you. It really is a thing. I had the same parasites as my dogs.

  My dogs head worms. I deworm them, but I never deworm myself.

  Michelle: Wow. That's crazy. That's true. It's, true. We always focus on that.

  Kim: it's really a crazy thought process that we are so concerned about our pets, you know? Another place that you can catch a parasite is salmon and sushi,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Kim: raw meat, raw produce.

  Michelle: So salmon, raw salmon, or also cooked. If it's not cooked enough, maybe if it's undercooked.

  Kim: So the salmon still has it inside. It's just if it you cook it, it becomes dead.

  Michelle: Okay.

  Kim: salmon can hold up to 10,000 parasite eggs in one square inch of its body.

  Michelle: My God. Wow.

  Kim: The closer to the belly of the cut of the salmon, the more parasites. I live in Seattle and I have gone down and interviewed the people at Pike Market, which is [00:11:00] like

  the famous fish market. And when I talked with them about this, they looked at me like I was crazy because I said so. Tell me which fish have parasites And they go, well, all of 'em. They all have worms. It's natural. And I'm like, oh god. Good thing I got that on tape.

  Because everyone seems to think that this is not a real thing, that you could catch a parasite from fish or seafood.

  Michelle: I think people are in a denial. They just don't want to know. I think that that's what

  Kim: I'm

  Michelle: it's like I don't wanna know about it. If I don't see it, it doesn't exist. That's funny.

  Kim: it. So, you know, those are like really simple ways that you can catch something like this. And then the problem is that after you catch it, it doesn't always become active, right? So we can lay [00:12:00] dormant in your body and then all of a sudden something happens in your life that's very stressful and they feed off of low frequencies and bam, all of a sudden.

  Now you are sick and you have no idea why, and it's because you're continuously eating a parasite. Or say you go to Mexico. I mean, everyone goes, don't be drinking the water in Mexico. I don't drink the water in the United States.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Kim: I don't like.

  Michelle: neither. Another top one, or no?

  Kim: Yeah, I don't eat raw produce in the United States because it's washed with our water. I don't use ice in the United States. Like, I'm pretty strict with those things since I've done a lot of cleansing and I just know

  Michelle: know too much.

  Kim: I do. It's so unfortunate. 'cause salmon's my favorite, like

  Michelle: Yeah. So I'm guessing you're not eating any raw fish anytime soon.

  Kim: No, no, no, no, I'm not. But you know, the funny thing about the word salmon is that it's actually my niece's last name. [00:13:00]

  Michelle: Is It really?

  Kim: It is, and I'm allergic to salmon. I've had my hair tested and it came back that I'm allergic to salmon. I'm like, well, that's because I have a negative frequency when I say salmon now, so it's auto.

  I'm allergic to salmon. My niece's last name is salmon, and on a daily basis I talk shit about salmon. The matrix is cruel.

  Michelle: You are so funny. I look, this is really funny. It's,

  it really is. Now. Now It's true. The f there is a frequency. it's a real thing.

  Kim: thing. Frequencies

  Michelle: see the parasite eggs, we, we, we can't see the actual parasites, but the eggs, we can't see the frequency, but you know, we feel it for sure.

  Kim: Well, we're frequency, right? So basically what I did when I realized that after I went viral on TikTok and I went viral over my own parasite cleanse, not para, I actually started my business a few months after, which. Just for [00:14:00] viewers to hear this and the community to hear this. I was still very ill when I went viral.

  It wasn't like all of a sudden I went viral and bam, I'm in, like I'm in this, I'm in the health I'm in today. You know, like it really was. I had parasites and then I found out we were living in mold in the middle of all of this. And then in 2023, I, I found out I had chronic end stages of Lyme, and that's what was like my uphill battle.

  But I started a company over all of this because of the fact that I was spending all day long talking about other people's product, how you should take a parasite cleanse with a candida cleanse and a heavy metal cleanse because they all hang out together. And so as I was. Doing all of the things while I was going viral, and when I say I was going viral, it wasn't a little viral, it was a million people watched my one video in two hours and it shut my account down.

  It shut my phone down. It overheated my phone. And then in, and [00:15:00] since all of this time, that video has had 10 million views. My account used to get 40 to 50 million views a month. So it was like a million to 2 million views a day until TikTok smartened up. And anytime you say parasite, it's totally censored now.

  So, but we have a million followers across all of. Our platforms, and we also now have a 10,000 square foot manufacturing facility and 40 team members that help make the purify cleanse among other cleanses that we now make because we really are an environmental toxin cleanse company that shows you how to get rid of parasites, mold, and, and assists with Lyme.

  So everything that's affected me, I've just, I made a business over it.

  Michelle: But you're helping people, which is amazing. This is what I always say, that's like completely aligned purpose when you know, you take something that you have gone through and then you're not only helping yourself, but you're helping others. But I think that that's when it really has an [00:16:00] impact.

  And of course, it's a passion because you know what you went through.

  Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I was not a fan of parasites in my real life before this though. I left the urgent care 'cause I had to treat parasites and I'm like, I'm out. I'm out.

  Michelle: It's very poetic how, how how things happen. Yeah. And so tell us some of the things, some of the symptoms that people can have from Para. It's 'cause people can have it and not realize that they have anything. What are some of the things that are red flags or, and you can also mention, you know, you went through endometriosis as well, which a lot of listeners have gone through.

  Kim: So some of my symptoms of endo happened to be parasites, molden, Lyme, just, I'm just gonna put it out there. I had a hysterectomy when I was 29 years old. I had five surgeries prior to the hysterectomy, and then I had five surgeries after the hysterectomy. Total amount of surgeries I've had due to [00:17:00] endometriosis.

  Has been 13 and in 2019, I was told after my last surgery that I could no longer have surgeries and that this is the way I was gonna have to live in pain, bloated, uncomfortable, not pooping, and just trying to regulate my daily pain. And that to me is not acceptable. And so that's really what made me dig in even more.

  And now looking back in all the research that I've done, I can't believe that these things were not brought to my attention. It's been 20 years. I'm 47 years old, so it's not like this was something that was really common back then to talk about, and that's why I'm so passionate about it. It's really upsetting that our western medicine countries don't understand that someone needs to clean their soil first before they do a life altering surgery or a life altering event. I was on chemo twice. It damaged my bones, it damaged my body. It didn't stop the endo from growing. And every time I would watch a surgery [00:18:00] or I would look at pictures, I always thought, this looks really suspicious.

  And when I went to my doctors and said that, they just gaslit me and I would research, but like at what point, even with the amount of knowledge I have, and when I say that I'm smart, it's not. Because I'm trying to have a big ego. I literally was valedictorian over two medical degrees. I'm really smart. So when I went to my doctors and I said, Hey, like this just doesn't look right.

  Like, could you explain this to me? And they're not able to explain it for a few reasons. Once they just don't know. And it's not their fault

  they're reading a

  Michelle: just not in the system.

  Kim: That's right. That's right. Their indoctrination did not allow them to speak about it. Right. And then their malpractice fear does not allow them to go outside of the box.

  So it's my job.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kim: Out. It's the truth. It's the truth. And I know because I was a licensed medical specialist, I worked in the field and I went out of the box [00:19:00] all the time. I actually let my license go so that I could speak about this even more. So I went viral in July and I let my license go in September because I knew that if I came out the way, I knew I was gonna come out with this, that it wasn't gonna be something that I could like defend with a license anymore.

  You know? And so I think that. Looking at all of this, and me actually being a part of Western medicine, writing, education, academia, all of those things played a huge part in having a better understanding that people that are not in the medical world, they really don't have any idea. And so it's really important for you as a human to be able to advocate for yourself, to be able to have sovereignty over your own body.

  And I think 2020 really taught that. To people, and I feel like that's another reason why I know this is my destiny because everyone was in lockdown in 21. Everyone was looking for [00:20:00] what is a way that they can take sovereignty over their health and figure it out with doing something natural. And that's.

  That's what I talk about every day. I don't just talk about parasites. I literally now show everybody everything I've done to heal my body. I have podcasts over it. I literally want the, the world to be in a, in a wellness space versus we're constantly reacting to our health. Now that we know that our culture does not talk about parasites, mold, it is important for us.

  As a society to talk about it. And so even if you're looking at it in a different lens, it still is gonna happen to you whether you think that you can catch a parasite or not. Everybody has parasites, in my opinion.

  Michelle: It's almost like environmental toxins. It's just like it's there

  Kim: It's an

  Michelle: you know, we're poor as beings, so at one point or another we can't [00:21:00] get away from it. So we have to be proactive.

  Kim: That's right. That's right. You have to be, and now that we know this, I mean, this is what I do every day, honestly. I do one to three hours of podcasting a day. And then in the mornings I run a business to, to make sure everybody is aware of what this movement is. And then I do my podcasting. And then in the afternoon I do content around all of this because it's so important that if you think that you've got IBS, you're grinding your teeth, your skin is a wreck, your labs come back normal.

  You don't feel like yourself. You can't reconnect with your intuition. You're constantly depressed, you're constantly anxious. It's because you potentially have a parasite. I mean, you look at just, I do videos about 21 signs, like you've got reoccurring yeast infections. You have bv, well, you have candida, and candida is a parasite.

  [00:22:00] Candida is a, is a yeast in our body that overgrows and controls your mind telling you to eat sugar because that's what it feeds off of. So that takes it to a next step. Can parasites control your mind? Absolutely. Parasites control your mind and mold brainwashes you. And if you think about that in a live frequency, they're alive in our body and they hijack our nervous system.

  They get into our lymphatic system, and then they cause our brain gut to not connect. And your gut is your brain

  they need.

  Michelle: system. They, yep. So it's a it. Yeah, That's a microbiome can really impact your brain. So it would make sense. Totally. That parasites would as well.

  Kim: And then you bring in the other aspect of the heavy metals and the heavy metals weight them down. Well, we're, we're exposed every day to heavy metals. I'm looking at my water. It's in glass right? [00:23:00] But it's got this on top of it. Okay. Okay, well this is just life. Do you think that maybe there might be something that could seep in at some point when you've got like, so I can't avoid it, but what I can do is I can cleanse it, I can assist my body, assist my organs by using herbs to go in and direct what needs to be pushed where.

  And that's all I did with the purify kit. When I realized after going viral one that the company that I was talking about at the time would not disclose transparency about what's in their product. I realized that this is actually a thing with most companies. I said, what are the natural ingredients that you have on the back of your.

  Is this lab? Are you soaking your herbs? And they're like, well, we can't disclose that. That's patent. And I'm like, what do you mean? You can't tell me why there's color? You know, there's [00:24:00] coloring inside of your tincture. I didn't like that. I didn't like that at all. So I created my own, and I'm very transparent.

  Michelle: I love that, so, so talk to us about what you did actually create in these cleanses. Like what do they do? How long does it work?

  Kim: So it's a 30 day cleanse, and I recommend anybody that has infertility issues, that has reproductive problems to actually go in and do a para parasite cleanse. I. Look back now, I have no regrets, but I do look back and think if I was able to have done this, would I have needed a hysterectomy? And the answer really is no.

  I've also had a lot of people that have infertility issues, done my kit and actually have babies. I can name three people right now that I sent kids to personally, and they have 1-year-old boys. I don't know what it was, but that year happened to be a lot of boys and so.[00:25:00]

  Michelle: And you wouldn't recommend doing this as you're trying to conceive, you would say, do this, pause and then try after?

  Kim: Yeah, because Wormwood dictates the fact that like it can push out any sort of what they think could be a toxin. That's what the herb does. And so I don't recommend that if someone is actively trying or is on IVF to actually do a parasite cleanse. But if you're pausing and you know that you're gonna go for it, then you should be cleaning your soil.

  You should get in there because once your body relieves. Itself of something that it's already living with, right? Because these are living things in our bodies. They're physical living beings in our bodies. So once it re gets rid of that, it can get itself prepared to have another positive living thing living inside of your body, taking your nutrients.

  So. Parasites can take up to 90% of our nutrients, and that's why people that have [00:26:00] hookworm have anemia. That's why people that have a tapeworm are skinny or are totally overweight and cannot lose weight no matter what, because it's stealing the nutrients that your body needs. It's acting like your body, but your physical body, your physical being, is not getting those nutrients.

  So now it's suffering. Multiple different places are no longer getting the a hundred percent energy that it needs in order to operate, and it's relying now on another team member inside. Right? So it's really an unfortunate thing when you do have a parasite and that's why we all end up being somewhat chronically ill.

  Because of that. So if you look at that in a hole when you're trying to get pregnant and you're having a problem, why not give it a try? Like get in there and clean your soil. Get in there and make sure that what you're doing is gonna stick in. One, you're not wasting money. I mean, you're gonna take all these supplements and do all these things, but if you are physical body is not getting what it's needed.

  It's a waste.[00:27:00]

  Michelle: A hundred percent. And talk also about like mold toxicity. 'cause that's something that I think a lot of people don't really know, like. It, It's kind of like people have heard about it, but they don't really know what it is and what it does, and those, there's different types of mold. I know this is more specific to like toxic black mold but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

  Kim: It's actually all mold. It's not just black mold, so multiple different molds that get into your body. So I have 11 active molds. My body, I've researched mold a lot. So I went viral in 21, and then in 2022 I found out that we were living in black mold in our travel trailer while we were building our log home.

  And when I found that out, I moved us out immediately. And it wasn't just black mold that tried to unli us, it was green mold, which is called cladosporium. I had like. Cryptosporidium and then I had cladosporium. I'm like really, again, playing on the words universe. [00:28:00] So I ended up finding out that specific molds that accumulate inside of your body end up causing you to feel a certain way.

  So green mold was at a high toxic level in my body. Even though green mold normally doesn't unlive people like black mold will. But when it pairs with other molds, it will create an ecosystem storm in your body and your cells absorb mold. So if you cut yourself in half and you looked at yourself, it would look just like the wall, right?

  It would be clusters of mold and it would be growing. And that's what happens in our cells. And then it pushes ourselves out of the way because the colonization of the mold has to be in there. And so it pushes those cells out and those cells are needed. Our red blood cells are needed, and it can grow inside of those, our white blood cells.

  So the cells need the energy and the mold is taking [00:29:00] that energy, and then you get parasites. Most people that have mold end up having parasites, and most people that have mold poisoning end up testing positive for Lyme.

  Michelle: That's crazy. And So you know, if you think about like. Mushrooms and fungus. I mean, it is kind of related. Is there any kind of connection with that, like, or does it help and, you know, certain types of mushrooms help?

  Kim: So mushrooms are a positive frequency and mold is a low vibrational frequency and were made of frequencies. So all I did when I created all of this and when I realized mushrooms were great, is that you look at the frequency of that herb and what the frequency of that ailment is, and so you realize that we're made of frequencies and light.

  And so when you're bringing in certain medications, synthetic driven, it's just a frequency to target that ailment. That's all this is. Right? [00:30:00] So I think people, oh, we take it and it absorbs and it goes to all places, but you're absorbing a frequency. And so I think it's hard 'cause we've never really been taught this type of medicine before.

  We just think of a of a as a physical thing. But if you think about

  Michelle: But the physical things, a reflection of that.

  Kim: Yes, yes. Like when an opera singer gets her voice to the same frequency of a glass and it can shatter, that's a frequency. And so if you find out, like I realize that mushroom frequencies and wormwood frequencies and organ grapefruit, those are all positive frequencies.

  And so when you put them into your body, they're gonna snuff out the negative ailments that are being caused, you know?

  Michelle: Yeah. it's kind of similar to you know, a soil based, a spore based probiotics because they create an environment that doesn't allow the bad bacteria to grow, so it kind of [00:31:00] creates a different pH. So It's almost like a police, you know, a police, but a good police, you know, that takes care of your body and kind of make sure that everything's run well and, and like, bad.

  Opportunistic. Either mold or bacteria, it just doesn't proliferate. So Yeah. It's a defender. That's good. It's policing what it needs to do. Right. It's, that's so good. It's defending, it's like, yo, man, I'm up in here. I don't have time. Like I am going to protect. I'm gonna break down and I'm gonna protect 'cause that's what you brought me into do. Right. So. If you look at everything that you put on your body and in your body and the things that you are doing, they all have frequency.

  Kim: So it's a, it's really the best way to simplify what medicine is.

  Michelle: And so the para cleanse, is it, is.

  that

  Kim: Yeah, it's called paray?

  and [00:32:00] it's a parasite cleanse that's 30 days. It's three tinctures and a binder. And it's everything that I learned over the last well in that, in that time when I created it. We've never changed our parasite cleanse 'cause that's how good it is. This is the original. We've never changed the recipe.

  When I went viral in July of 2021, I started the company in December. So in that timeframe, I studied all night, I researched everything. I read every comment in my, in my dms and and on my videos. And at that point I was making videos like. Three or four a day, and I was doing it so that I could gain the knowledge from people that were watching it.

  And they would go into the comments and they would tell me what they use, what they do, how they do it. And one of the things that was amiss for me was a binder on the first couple of cleanses I did. I come from the emergency room, I come from Western medicine. We don't use charcoal or clay. We use charcoal in the emergency room [00:33:00] though when someone comes in overdosing or with alcohol poisoning, and we use it in a large amount, but in Herb world we use it at a microdose.

  So I realized that one of the biggest things that I was missing and why things were coming out of my skin and in my mouth and like I was peeing them out is 'cause I wasn't binding.

  Michelle: Okay, so explain that. I have a very, very smart audience And they love to really educate themselves, which typically that's what they have to do because they're not really getting their answers elsewhere. so I'd love for, for that to be broken down. Like what's the difference between having a binder, what is it, and also what the herbs do, and why you need the, you know, the two together.

  Kim: So our binder is called Cinnamon and I chose sea lawn, cinnamon and coconut activated charcoal. We all know those words, right? So Sealon cinnamon helps with mold spores. So when you are deworming, you're dropping whatever's [00:34:00] inside of their body. If you have physical worms and when you're breaking down microscopic, it's also could be dropping viruses, bacteria, mold, spores, other parasites.

  So you have to come in with herbs that are synergistically, going to help remove those things while they're getting dumped in your body. So. You might not have ever tested positive for Epstein-Barr virus, but you might have had a worm that was holding that virus like I did, and then all of a sudden you do a cleanse and it dumps it because you didn't have an herb in there to push it out and also to bind it.

  So a binder is a negatively charged herb that attacks and mag magnetizes a positively charged toxin. So it's a magnet. So when you are cleansing, specifically with purify, you're doing candida, parasites, bad bacteria, and viruses and heavy metals. You are going in and you're removing potentially a physical body that's gonna dump that.

  And then once it's in your body, you have to bind it and push [00:35:00] it out, or your body is gonna try and reabsorb it. So you're basically boosting

  Michelle: This is why people feel sick, because you're, you're basically taking something that was dormant, kind of sitting underneath, you know, behind, and then you're bringing it out. You're kinda activating it. So while you're activating it, you need to attach and remove it rather than circulate it, which a lot of toxins detox.

  Detox is used to do, or certain detoxes without binders in general, or even like cleanses that people did.

  Kim: Yeah. That's what I did to myself. That's what my husband did. We just took one tincture. We just took an anti-parasitic tincture and that was it. Well, I got heavy metals coming out. It gave me candida, had 'em coming out my skin, like they were, we did a fulvic soak. They came out my feet like it was, it was really like, oh my God.

  How does, why do people do this? Right. Why are people putting themselves through this? Well, I did feel better, [00:36:00] but the amount of detoxing I did because I wasn't doing it right. And one of the biggest things you have to do, even after a massage, I mean, as a simple massage, you should bind because of the fact that here, I'll give you guys a real quick anatomy and physiology lesson, and it's because of the.

  You'll have an understanding of the lymphatic system and why you need to bind. So our lymphatic system doesn't have a sphincter. It doesn't have a pump, and it's our sewer system. So the sewer system is under our body. And when you get something, even like a massage or you get on a vibration plate, you've just knocked loose, like you said, something that could be dormant.

  You just knocked it loose and it's like, well, where do I go? Oh, this place looks really great to go to. I'm gonna go ahead and attach myself here and cause an another problem. But if you do that and then you bind the binder, comes in like a police officer and says, yeah, no, get, get out. Go. It's gonna bind [00:37:00] itself and move itself out, right?

  That's the job of the charcoal and that's the job of the cinnamon. The cinnamon helps with inflammation, and inflammation is mucus. And mucus is where they live. They live in a biofilm. They meaning mold. Parasites, candida. They live in a hardened shell, so you gotta break the shell. And those are all of the things that I had to learn.

  And then I incorporated that into the Paray Parasite Cleanse kit. Yeah, so because no one has biofilm busters in their, their cleanses, right? So even if you go to like Paraguard, which a lot of people know what Paraguard is, it's 30 bucks on Amazon. It's what I went viral over, but it doesn't have a biofilm.

  Herb in it that breaks the biofilm, and so you are just going in and cleaning out some of the stuff that's literally just floating around. That's not the purpose of a cleanse. The purpose of a cleanse is to get down and dirty and police and get [00:38:00] all these things out, but you gotta break down their house.

  You gotta burn it down in order to expose them.

  Michelle: Yeah. And also have you heard of like zeolite or bentonite clay? What are your thoughts on those?

  Kim: They're great binders. Zeolite can be taken with anything, and it, it's a good binder. Fulvic is a great binder and it can be taken with anything. And in fact, we're working on, well, we have a fulvic soak, so you can actually soak your feet in a fulvic soak that we have. And I had worms swim out of the bottom of my feet when I did a fulvic soak.

  I know, I know, man. I went viral over so many gross things. I'm like, listen, I'm already in the thick of it. The world knows that I had weren't.

  Michelle: is so funny.

  Kim: I'm going for it. You know, so

  Michelle: totally.

  Kim: we're, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna let everyone else have the opportunity to buy, buy what I'm talking about, because Fulvic is great.

  It's really a, a great mineral that fulvic ic [00:39:00] we need in our bodies to help our mitochondria and to really help bind out toxins and heavy metals. So in fact, next year I'm

  Michelle: comes,

  from Sheila G, right?

  Kim: That's one of the places Uhhuh, the fulvic that we use is a peat moss, and it's just dirt. Fulvic is just dirt.

  That's it. So there's ways that they will create things like Sheila gt, but fulvic itself is just peat moss that comes from dirt. But the peat moss absorbs the nutrients that our dirt needs. So if you go and you do a fulvic. Foot soak. And then when you're done with that water, if you go dump that on your plants, they're going to grow exponentially and it's gonna be wild how fast they grow.

  So growers for all sorts of growing use fulvic to help their plants grow, but it detoxes our bodies.

  Michelle: Right. Amazing. And just FYI if you guys do wanna get information, the link is in the episode notes and [00:40:00] we, I do have a, a coupon code as well.

  Kim: Nice

  Michelle: Very cool. So some, so you have the purify kit, you have the fulvic acid. What else do you guys offer? And, and also the purify kit helps with mold.

  Kim: So we actually have a mold kit. So all of the environmental toxin kits that we have, our first one is purify. That's the old G. That's the one we've had for four years,

  but. In May, I developed the lymph kit, LYMF. It helps move your lymphatic and it helps with your three Ps. Your three Ps are ping, pooping and perspiring, and I use the lymph kit every day, and so you can actually use the lymph kit two weeks prior to the purify kit and then you continue to take it while on the purify parasite cleanse and it helps keep your pathways open.

  Michelle: So it's safe to take daily, it's like

  fine.

  Kim: It's your wellness bestie. [00:41:00] Now, instead of a cleanse, it's a wellness kit, so you literally can wake up in the mornings and you can take lymph holy skull and sustain, and what those

  Michelle: Except for pregnancy, correct? Like, yeah.

  Kim: We don't recommend anybody taking anything while pregnant, breastfeeding under the age of three.

  And that has to do with the herbs on chemo meds or on blood thinners. Wormwood a blood thinner and organ grapefruit. Continue your blood. And so if you're already on that, then you don't want to do the two things. We also have in my link, in my profile or in your show notes, I have a link. Hello Pharmacist.

  So if you're ever wondering about can I take my meds with these herbs, not just our herbs, any herbs, that's the website to go to, and they love us. I mean, I've sent millions of people over there. We, we've had, you know, we've sold over 250,000 kits worldwide in four years. So they love us because we're constantly telling people like, I can't give you medical advice.

  I'm just here to talk about [00:42:00] herbs.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  That's great. That's really, really good information. Amazing. Wow, there's so, so much. I'm trying to think of what else. What else do I have any other questions? So is there something that people should be considering when they're taking the cleanse? Do they need to drink extra water? Is there anything that they need to do while they're taking it or kind of keep in mind?

  Kim: So in the show notes, my link tree will be there and in my link tree I have five free eBooks. Everything I do is free. You can email my team anytime. You can utilize these books. With my cleanse or without. So one of the books is Fast Track Guide. It's like 10 to 15 pages and it tells you how to get ready.

  I have a cookbook that right now is a no meat based cookbook, but over the last few years I've done a lot of research and you should have. Some meat protein while cleansing, but this will assist you in getting ideas. It's like 123 pages [00:43:00] at Christmas This year, we'll have a meat protein-based cookbook that is approved for parasite cleansing, and I also have a book that is for drainage pathways to open up your drainage pathways.

  And then there's a book. That is a parasite identification ebook that if you're looking and you're wondering what's in the toilet, you can either send us pictures and I will help identify it. Or you can look in this 600 page book. 'cause I have around 25,000 pictures on my phone that I get sent every day.

  Yeah, it's wild.

  Michelle: That's, that's so crazy. Very, very interesting. I mean, really, really fascinating information. And I'm actually excited because you guys were like, generous enough to send me a kit as Well, so I'm excited to start it. So, wow. So how can people find you I know you'd mentioned a couple of different ways, but how can people find you if they're interested in learning more?

  Kim: Well, you can Google me, Kim Rogers Worm Queen. You can find me. [00:44:00] I know. This is why I have a crown. Like even right up there, like people send me crowns. It's so funny. It's just such a, it's such a fun name. I have it on all my merch anyway, so you can find me by googling me that way. Or you can go to my social media accounts, Mrs.

  Rogers Hood. M-R-S-R-O-G-E-R-S-H-O-O-D. On Instagram, there's a dot after Rogers and Hood. Someone has the whole name put together, I feel for her dms, and then you can find my website, rogers hood.com. My podcast is called What's Eating You with the Letter U. That's on YouTube as well as all streaming platforms.

  So I'm pretty much everywhere. If you just type in Worm Queen, I'm sure I'm gonna pop up somewhere.

  Michelle: Oh, awesome. Well, Kim, this is such a great and fun and funny episode, but really like amazingly important too, and great information. I think that a lot of people [00:45:00] would not even consider thinking about this. So I really thank you for bringing this up and kind of sharing your amazing information. So thank you so much for coming on today.

  Kim: thanks for having me.

  Michelle: Awesome stuff.

Ep 365 Meditation with a Mission: How Self-Hypnosis Can Reprogram Your Life

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Rita Black (@shiftweightmastery), a clinical hypnotherapist and weight management expert, to explore how self hypnosis can transform your habits, health, and overall mindset. Rita shares her personal journey of quitting smoking and breaking free from emotional eating through hypnosis and how she has helped thousands do the same.

We dive into the science behind the subconscious mind, the difference between hypnosis and meditation, and how identity shapes your habits, beliefs, and even your physical health. Whether you are trying to change a behavior, reprogram limiting beliefs, or shift your mindset around fertility and well being, this episode will show you how to harness your mind’s power to create lasting change.

Key Takeaways: 

• How hypnosis works to bypass the conscious mind and rewire habits at the subconscious level.

• The difference between meditation and self hypnosis and why the latter is “meditation with a mission.”

• Why identity is the foundation of transformation and how it shapes behavior and physiology.

• How subconscious beliefs can affect fertility, weight, and other health outcomes.

• Simple daily self hypnosis and gratitude techniques to prime your brain for positive change.

• Why quitting smoking or vaping is less about willpower and more about identity and subconscious programming.

Guest Bio:

Rita Black, C.Ht. (@shiftweightmastery), is a clinical hypnotherapist and renowned expert in smoking cessation and weight loss. She is the author of the best-selling From Fat to Thin Thinking: Unlock Your Mind for Permanent Weight Loss and the host of the Thin Thinking podcast. Through her signature online programs, Shift Weight Mastery Process and Smokefree123, Rita has guided thousands to harness the power of their subconscious mind to create lasting, healthy transformations.

She also offers two free resources to help you begin your own transformation journey:

• Free Weight Loss Masterclass: How to Stop the “Start Over Tomorrow” Weight Struggle Cycle and Start Releasing Weight for Good - a 75-minute session that includes a light hypnosis experience to help you identify and remove subconscious barriers to weight loss. Join here

• Free Smoking Cessation Masterclass: How to Stop Smoking Without Withdrawal, Cravings, or Weight Gain — a practical, empowering approach to quitting for good. - Join Here
  
  

Links and resources:

Visit Rita’s website here
YOU, the Non-Smoker? Yes, it's Possible - learn more here
Follow Rita on Instagram

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Rita. I'm so happy to have you.

  Rita: I'm really excited to be here, Michelle, and have a great conversation about the mind with you.

  Michelle: Yes, the mind, it really uh, is so powerful, oftentimes ignored. We just talked about that

  in the pre-talk, Oftentimes ignored because it's hard to really wrap your hands around, it's not something that you can touch and feel. It's something that can paint your perspective and you can't, you don't even realize it's doing that.

  Rita: Yeah, I mean, our thoughts either own us or we own our thoughts, our habits either own us or we own us. And I have, interestingly, because I'm older than you, when I started my practice, it was pre cell phones

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Rita: something that I noticed just like, why, you know, we, and this will be relevant to just what you said.

  Is that prior to 2007 when the iPhone, I believe first came on the market people's brains were different than they are now. People are like uh,[00:01:00]

  Michelle: is so true.

  Rita: Much more short attention span. Everybody thinks they have a DHD, although it's just that our brains are overstimulated, overwhelmed the digital era now AI is just like taking it, ratcheted it up, just.

  Crazy. And so I think we are gonna be entering into a new era of brain management. Like where, you know, we, we manage our health, but we also recognize from the moment we wake up, we're either managing our brain or our brain is managing us.

  Michelle: so true. I wanna get to that. That is absolutely true. I actually find myself now. I'm like, I'm gonna write my copy. I'm gonna, you know, like I, I do get help of course, you know,

  because you can't do everything. It's almost like I look at it like AI is an assistant, so, I'm still the CEO, I'm gonna, you know, manage my own creativity. And I used to probably rely a little bit more, and now I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna write this. I'm gonna think this. I'm, I'm finding myself like bringing that naturally back. And wanting to, [00:02:00] and wanting to kind of like, almost like assert my own uniqueness as a human

  Rita: I think we are gonna find, I mean, because this is just, incubating stages of this, you know, as we human beings learn to interact with AI and our brains. I am doing the same thing as you. I am like, oh, this is kind of like a brain muscle, and if I don't keep flexing my brain muscle, I will get flabby and I won't be able to create my own copy, or I won't be able to come up with ideas.

  I'll just become relying on this thing outside of me and until they create the brain shift that go in our

  Michelle: Yeah, I know. Oh

  God. It's like total

  Rita: in steroids.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's gonna be like insane.

  So, so actually before we get started, I'd love for you to tell us your origin story.

  Which I always love to hear just a little bit more about you and how you got interested in the work that you do, and specifically like how you [00:03:00] even niched on that.

  Rita: Yeah, well I niched from the very beginning because I actually was somebody who was a pack and a half a day smoker, and I also struggled with my weight up and down the scale of 40 pounds and from a very early age. So I, I was in my early thirties and just a hot mess and had tried to quit smoking a number of times and, and sometimes successfully, like, I could get a year under my belt, but I would always, always, always go back.

  And I just found it really hard and, and my husband smoked. And so anyway, a friend of mine went to a hypnotherapist and you know, this was in the nineties and. We're so much like even meditation people were not talking about it. It was just like, that was just going to, a hypnotherapist was still really outside the norm of some sort of, you know, like modalities, like acupuncture.

  I know you do acupuncture. It's just like [00:04:00] all of that was still like, seemed really granola, hippie dippy, you know? Woo. And not practical application. And she said this, and I was like, hypnosis, like, you know, and you picture this guy with a mustache and a polyester jacket and he's waving a watch in

  Michelle: That's gonna make you bark.

  Rita: and he is gonna make you bark and collect like a duck.

  And I was like, really? And she's like, I stopped in one session and I have had no cravings and I. Don't even care that, you know, like, I don't even want a cigarette. No regrets. I was like, huh, what? Okay, well maybe I'm a little more interested now. And so I went and saw the same hypnotherapist and you know, when you go to somebody who's not just somebody that heals you or is, you know, a practitioner, but that they're a teacher as well, they just really love what they do and they wanna.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Rita: You know, lay it all on you. And so this guy was really awesome. He was this older British gentleman. This was in Venice, [00:05:00] California. I live in Los Angeles. And and he explained how the mind worked to me. Like he, he, he wasn't just like, get in the chair and I'm gonna hypnotize you. He was like, this is why it's been hard for you.

  I can explain kind of at the same time is that, you know, he was explaining like, I have this model behind me. For those of you listening audio, it's like only 12% of your mind is the conscious, critical, analytical part of your mind. That is the part of the mind that wants to quit smoking. The other 88%, the part of you that believes smoking, you know your beliefs.

  So the part of my brain that believed. Smoking calmed me down and was great after a meal and helped me wake up in the morning. And all that power in my brain had given that was in my subconscious. And so was the patterns, like the pattern of smoking after a meal or when I got in my car or what have you.

  and then just the identity of being a smoker. 'cause whenever I went to quit smoking, I was always a smoker who was trying to quit smoking. And [00:06:00] so my brain still. Thought of me as a smoker. And so what happened in the session was I, you know, so he explained that, over from birth until we're in our twenties, everything, our parents, teachers life experiences get imprinted in our subconscious.

  And this critical filter is formed so that. Anything coming in, no matter if you're reading studies about how bad smoking is for you no matter how many people outside of you are telling you quit smoking, it's bad for you, et cetera. The other 88% is like, when am I gonna get my next cigarette? It doesn't

  Michelle: Hmm. Yeah.

  Rita: And, and so the part of your mind that is driving whatever behavior, whether it's smoking, whether it's overeating, or or nail picking or hair pick picking or any of negative habits. The conscious part of you is like, I want the change, but the subconscious is like business as usual. We is driving you to engage in that same behavior over and over again below your conscious awareness.

  [00:07:00] So how hypnosis is helpful is it relaxes the critical filter. So suggestions can be given and really quickly, well, at least for smoking, weight is a little different. It's a little more slow because we can't stop food. But we can stop nicotine. We don't need nicotine in order to live. So, in that one session, I stepped into being a non-smoker.

  So I stepped into a non-smoking identity. I shifted my focus to being a happy, healthy non-smoker. I let, it was like shedding of a skin, like, you know, snakes, sheds the skin. and I left that session and I was like. I totally get it. It's not like I forgot that I smoked, like I think some people think you take smoking out of your brain and you throw it away.

  When you do hypnosis or somebody, you, you wake up out of this trance and go, I used to smoke. That's crazy. It wasn't like that, but I left the session going. I'm a non-smoker and, and I [00:08:00] just don't do that anymore. and so I was able to hang out with friends because this was the nineties. People still smoked in bars and, you know, around it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like,

  Michelle: right.

  So you were exposed to it. It's hard.

  Rita: Yeah. And, and I just was like, that's something you do. I, I just don't do it anymore. And I wasn't like waving my hand and being an annoying non-smoker, you know, being shaming people about it. It was just like, okay, I, I don't do that anymore. So, so that was my first. Taste of hypnosis and, and what happened after that?

  Because that was such a, like my, you know, one of those life shifting experiences where sort of the penny dropped and I was like, aha, I bet the same is challenging for my yo-yo dieting. You know, maybe. My conscious mind wants to lose weight and knows how to lose weight. Like I read every diet book. It wasn't like I lacked information, but this other subconscious part of my mind, my habits, my beliefs, even my identity.

  [00:09:00] Like we, we start to, we really believe we're a weight struggler, and so we're always struggling against being a struggler and, and really bring that, that identity kind of locks us into this whole weight struggle world. And holds us captive. And so, that's when I started exploring hypnosis for weight management.

  And, and the rest is history. I lost 40 pounds. I kept him off for 30 years. And, and have used hypnosis every day of my life, you know, for you know, do self hypnosis in the morning for just changing whatever I can about my life because there's always something I can make better, you know?

  Michelle: talk about self hypnosis. 'cause that's always really, really

  Rita: Yeah. Well,

  Michelle: what is that? For

  who have never heard of

  Rita: Yeah, I mean, self-hypnosis, if you wanna think about it, it is sort of meditation with a mission, right? Like you're going into a relaxed state, but you are using your mind, and most of the time a [00:10:00] self-hypnosis session, you're gonna focus on what you wanna create. Like where you're gonna put your focus rather than what you're not going to do.

  Because the brain doesn't really process negatives. It's like if we're like, I don't wanna go to McDonald's, it, here's, go to McDonald's. Right? Like, don't go to McDonald's. Right. So the brain, and, and if you ask, I mean, it's always amazing to me and maybe to you as well because I know I know you're working with fertility, but you know, a lot of times.

  People, if you ask 'em like, well, what do you wanna create? What do you wanna do in your life? they're more clear on what they don't want versus what they do.

  Michelle: So

  Rita: So, so when we really actually sit and have to think about like, what do I really wanna create? And the way then. just doing that helps your brain get clear, get specific and, and the more specific you are for your brain.

  'cause your brain is sort of like ai, it's like a, you can code it and say this is what I want. [00:11:00] Right. But you have to be specific. You have to be persistent, especially with things that. You know, like weight management is like, you have to keep going at it. It's not one and done. Like hypnosis for smoking cessation can be, but I think, so the way I coach people for a self hypnosis would be either to create a really clear vision of what you want and then have a.

  I call it the movie theater technique where you just kind of play what you're doing, like what you don't want, like the behavior you're, you're not wanting to engage in. And you play that through a couple of times and you imagine it like you're watching a screen and you're watching yourself on the screen doing whatever, like, you know.

  Snacking after dinner, like getting up, going to the cupboard, you know, eating, whatever. Right? And, and that's a pattern that the brain has gotten used to. So to interrupt that pattern, you are gonna say, well, what would I do instead? Because all the time we're like, well, I don't wanna eat after dinner. But you're not giving the, the brain [00:12:00] directions to what you want to do.

  After dinner. Right? And so what we wanna do is, is then once we play out the scene that we, we've been doing, we, reverse, like hitting rewind on the tv and then you put in the behavior you do. And you play that over and over again like three or four times, and you just keep doing that. And, and the best time for self-hypnosis is the morning, especially like if you're working on a behavior during the day.

  Because once you get to, like for instance, for night eating, once you get to the night, the train is left, the station, the, the brain is already engaged in that pattern. So you're not gonna change it in the middle of a pattern. But in the morning when you're in a relaxed state. Like athletes will practice the game in their mind ahead of time so that they get the moves in and, and their brain is already primed for that particular action.

  If you're doing that early in the morning [00:13:00] and when you have the most willpower and your brain is at its highest sort of freshest state, and you're going tonight after dinner, I'm gonna sit, watch tv, I'm gonna get up and stretch. Maybe I'll make a cup of herbal tea. See yourself doing it, seeing yourself.

  Practicing then going to bed, feeling light and aligned with myself and,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Rita: and then so you watch yourself do it a couple of times, and then you step into the movie screen and you feel. What it would feel like to go through, like for instance, the evening of, of fasting and that feeling brain gets engaged.

  The reticular activation system gets engaged and, and that's really where the power is in the feeling brain. But it's, it's helpful to like see it and then engage another really easy and this, so I don't, I, if I wanna make a behavioral change, I will do that. Especially if it's very anchored into my day.

  But if I wanna work on [00:14:00] myself, like if I wanna improve myself, like let's say what I do is I make a gratitude list as if those things already happened.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Rita: And then I'll read it and, and this is something super simple that all of your, your listeners can do is you grab your phone, you grab the hit record, you write down the list of the things that you wanna create.

  And don't make it overwhelming. Make it simple. Don't, you know, say. You know, I'm going to quit smoking and run a

  Michelle: million mansion, you know?

  Rita: and build a yeah. Million dollar reaction. You ha your brain has to kind of buy into it. It has to be believable enough that you can go, okay, I can, I can see this. You know, you know, I mean, you can project 10 years out into the future and say, and that's when my.

  You know, Gulfstream jet will come and pick me up and take me to, you know, Greece or whatever, but, for this month, you know, I'm just going to see myself taking out the garbage after dinner and making sure that I, you know, walk and do the my healthy stuff. [00:15:00] So, so, but what, how I've slowly reiterated, you know, my life over the years.

  It, it like, and this happens like with motherhood. 'cause I'm a mother, I'm an empty nester now, but I, raised two children and even when I was trying to get pregnant, because it was hard for me to get pregnant I started late, you know, and had my daughter when I was 37 and my son when I was 41.

  And I, visualized that, I gave gratitude for that. But. So, so write a gratitude list of things that maybe are short term things that you can accomplish, but also things that you're really grateful for. Like, I'm always grateful for my health. I'm grateful for the health of my family.

  I, you know, those, those kinds of things that are priming your brain in a positive, powerful way. I'm, I'm grateful that I'm exercising and having a healthy body. All those things. I, I usually focus on physical and mental and emotional health. I focus on the spiritual, like my connection to the universe. I focus on [00:16:00] money and finance and business goals.

  You know, like I have like quadrants of things that I focus on, and I'll write them into my little list, and then I'll just simply hit record. I'll go to YouTube play a meditation thing, and I'll just slowly read. I am grateful that my body is healthy and strong. You know, I'm grateful that I have a powerful connection with my husband and we care for each other, you know, and those are like little daily reminders that remind my brain, oh yeah, you have this husband and you care for him.

  And it helps prime my brain to be aware of all of those things in my life. And I think that that really, when I don't do it, I just, our brain is in survival mode. So it's kind of a wonderful,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Rita: it is a pause before the day to just remember who you are and what you're up to in the world. And it primes your brain in a way that makes you a little extra aware and it moves you a little [00:17:00] forward.

  And then you're gonna get into your day, you know, and it just is kind of, because we often wake up into a very negative head space. Oh, this isn't happening. And that's not happening because our, our brain is negativity biased. It is always gonna feed us negative stuff unless we work against it and say, no, no positive stuff.

  Here we go.

  Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Your mind. And that's why I want people like to hear this because sometimes we can judge ourselves for that, but that's actually like how your brain's wired.

  However, your brain also, You are able to choose also.

  Rita: yes.

  Michelle: so you can actually take it to a place you wanna go.

  But it's like when you're running, if you are running and then you look over to your side, you're gonna go in the direction that you're running or you're gonna bump into something. It's just better to look where you wanna go.

  Rita: Focus is everything where you're putting your focus is your experience of your life, right? And so I, I [00:18:00] think starting the day with. Positive and, and I don't mean positive Pollyanna-ish, like it's so beautiful and life is great, but really grounded in you and grounded in what you connect with.

  And, but just, but you're, you're just giving your brain that little extra. Focus and it's, literally chemical. You feel your body being flooded with the positive chemicals rather than cortisol and all the limiting chemicals that get flooded when we're like, it's dark outside and you know, I can't pay my bills and my husband's a jerk.

  Michelle: yeah,

  Rita: You know, so

  Michelle: yeah. I know totally. And a couple of things came to my mind actually, as you were talking about identity. Identity I feel like is really like what's going to be driving the belief, the habit, and the protection or you know, all the things that

  you have in there. So the identity is like everything.

  [00:19:00] And I remember hearing that where they have like associative disorder, a personality disorder where they have, which used to be called multiple personality disorder, where the different disorders or the different personalities come in. Then whenever they come in, a person will have certain conditions, physical conditions, such as being allergic to orange juice, for example.

  They'll get hives, another personality comes in, it's gone. They're not allergic. And the power of identifying. And then of course, in the fertility world. Women are given so many labels. They're going to their doctors, which kind of are hypnotherapist on their own, whether they're conscious of it or not. We know that with hypnotherapy, what works is having an authority figure of somebody that you really believe and trust like you put everything into. And then when a person like that will say, and, and they're, the thing is they're human and they have different opinions and they're not always [00:20:00] right. Because all of us have blind spots in all of us. Even if we're trained, up to the lazo, like we, you know, we

  know everything. We're still gonna have our human perspective. So women will come in and they'll get the infertility, diag your infertile or infertility, and that identity

  Rita: Yes.

  Michelle: stays and, and it gets really stuck.

  And I really wanna talk about that. I wanna talk about how. Your identity can impact your physical physiology.

  Rita: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. It is so interesting with doctors because I think they also, and, and I'm not speaking to all doctors because doctors in a normal practice or in a normal healthcare institution I mean, in a way their brains have to sort of label you in order for them to like, oh, okay, well she's this and that.

  I remember when I got pregnant at 37. For the first time, and then I was [00:21:00] labeled as elderly

  Michelle: right, or geriatric pregnancy.

  Rita: I just thought that was so hilarious. And my, my father-in-law is a doctor and he was like, yes, you're an elderly, you know, he's British. He's like, you're an elderly. Like not. But identity is very powerful.

  And you know, something that. the physiology, I just know from behavioral change that when I work with people, we start with identity. And because we open up a new world, and I think in that wor new world and your brain, then your physical beingness comes into that because it's like for instance with smokers, I just was telling Michelle before.

  We hit record that I worked with a man yesterday who was a vaper. You know, he had been vaping, he was actually sober. He had been, he actually is an addiction specialist, and he and his wife were just married. And she just found out that she was pregnant [00:22:00] and she had actually come in to see me like three months earlier to stop vaping.

  And he was like, it's my turn now. I gotta, you know, now I'm gonna be a dad. I, I have to stop vaping. and I said to him, you know, just like you got sober, like you stepped into the sober identity, you didn't like stop. He was a heroin addict and, and an alcoholic. So, yeah. And he has been sober for 13 years and clean for 13 years, but,

  Michelle: That's a hard thing to

  Rita: oh my gosh.

  Yeah. He was telling me, you know, it was such a story, but that I was like, you, you live in this world of smoking. And you have a relationship with it. And you have a relationship with yourself, right? So, and, and that's all wrapped up in your identity as a smoker or a vaper. And, this world, I call it the house of smoking, right?

  Like you live in this house of smoking and when you're in this house. It's like in your subconscious mind, your cigarettes. I mean, and it's the same with with weight and food. [00:23:00] Your brain sees that as a relationship. it's like a friend or family, like your cigarettes or your vape is like a friend or family.

  But you know, like, or, but the buddy it's is now the bully, you know? And the bully is like, you know, get outside and smoke. and it, doesn't care about you. It doesn't care about your health. It doesn't care about your future. It's because it's dopa, genetically driven.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  just like the phones are.

  Rita: it's, the phones are ringing and it doesn't care.

  It just wants you to do what it wants you to do. So I said, in order for us to, to, to, to shift, we can't like slap your hand and say, don't smoke. You have to leave that house. You have to, it's an abusive house and you have to create a new house, like with a foundation and a structure, and you have to change, you know, and that first step is identity.

  You have to step into this, make the decision to be a non-smoker. And when you make that decision, I, and I was using for him the [00:24:00] analogy of he just got married, I said. The second you say, I do, you step into not doing marriage, but you are being a husband. And in that being, it changes your body. It changes your pain, and it changes who you are, how you breathe.

  Just you know, your connection with your wife, the electricity that you bring to the, the relationship. It, it, it, all of these things get impacted. And, and he was like, oh, so it's an expansion rather than a contraction. And I was like, exactly. So you're stepping into this new place and you're seeing the world through the eyes of a non-smoker and that changes your brain, but it also changes your body.

  And, and he was like, oh, okay. That, that, and then you, and then we talked about the structure because you know, we have the identity, which is sort of like the foundation of the house. And then the structure is the pattern or the habit, and then shifting that pattern from a [00:25:00] negative pattern to an engaged positive pattern, right?

  Like being a non-smoker and creating your non-smoking self-care structure versus trying not to smoke after breakfast, like 'cause that creates a void in your brain. But when you're being a non-smoker, waking up as a non-smoker, having your coffee as a non-smoker, then it engages your brain in the beingness and the identity.

  Michelle: right. That makes sense. So it's, it's kind of getting away from this resistant relationship with it.

  Rita: And deprivation the idea, like without the word, without creates the void in your brain. Right. Or trying not to. And, and I imagine with fertility, it's, it's exactly the same. It's that. And, and I'm fascinated to hear how you work with that because it's a. It is a negative label and it creates yeah, a very limiting belief.

  And once you kind of can break through and [00:26:00] see, I, I remember my, how my daughter, because my husband and I tried forever, forever to get pregnant. And it was serendipitous that I went to see my gynecologist. 'cause I was literally going, okay, the next step is. You know, a fertility treatment of some sort.

  And she, she, you know, did an exam and she said, you know, you are ovulating right now. If you go home and have sex with your husband and you don't get pregnant, we'll know that there's a problem, but you could go, she, you know, planted that seed in my brain. It's. You could go home and get pregnant. And I was like, alright, I'm, I'll see you later.

  And I ran home and I was like, I stopped my husband, whatever he was doing. I was like, alright. You know, but, and you know, sure enough I got pregnant. But it was like that belief that, 'cause I had been living in this very dark place and I was like, oh, okay. Like this is an opportunity. It can happen. I mean, I've been trying everything, you know, so it was powerful.

  And the same with my [00:27:00] son, because it got even harder. I, it wasn't harder, it was just different being a woman over 40 because my ovulation cycle just got shorter. And so then I, I had to get more precise, but in that education and learning more about my body. That empowered me and that gave me a different, like, oh, I'm a woman who's empowered and creating her opportunity for pregnancy rather than I'm this old woman trying to get pregnant, you know,

  Michelle: Right,

  Rita: and

  Michelle: which is, Why stories. This is one of the things that I find to be probably the most, one of the most powerful ways. To really open people's minds to own journey. Being successful is when they hear other people going through many years of struggle and then getting pregnant after 40. When they hear stories and they can see real life examples people overcoming something that they're currently in, I find that to be [00:28:00] like a really key factor, probably one of the most powerful, which is why like. together as a collective. Like memberships, people really love each other's perspectives and hearing from each other and connecting. 'cause when you, when you come at it from a collective and then see that there is this possibility, I think that that's kind of like that suggestion

  from observing.

  Wow, okay. Like this person who was going through exactly what I'm going through looked exactly like me, was. Able to after 40, and I had one really amazing story of a, a podcast guest at 46 randomly conceiving after years or spontaneously, you know, like after years and years, naturally. And she also knew, she kind of felt a call, like she felt intuitively like it was gonna be a girl.

  She almost felt her when she was meditating, which is,

  takes it to a whole other like, kind of, realm. But

  it's really fascinating. So her story, I really landed with so many people [00:29:00] because. She's even tried egg donor and it didn't work,

  and then it was just natural, like it just happened.

  Rita: Interesting. You know, I to speak to what you were talking about is the collective unconscious with groups. Something our brain does and it's just part of probably being pack animals, I don't know, but we. See the people who are ahead of us in the road and our brain will literally on a, like an osmosis level, go, okay, I'm leveling up to that, whatever that leveling up me.

  And it might be even physically. I have a friend I'll tell you a quick story. I'm 61 and my friend and I went to high school together and we recently connected at a reunion and hadn't seen her since high school and she told me. She and her husband were both professors, one at Yale, one at Harvard, like very highly educated people.

  And they were back at I think his reunion in Harvard. And she was like [00:30:00] 45. They hadn't had children, like they were just very career oriented people, so they weren't necessarily trying to have a child, but, you know, they had a romantic passion and I, and then she was. She got pregnant. She didn't even know for three or four months.

  'cause this is like a very heady woman who's in her head. And then she was like, somebody said, are you pregnant? They named their child ivy because of the Ivy League. I, I just thought that was so funny.

  Michelle: That is funny.

  Rita: but so she was 46 when she had her daughter. But I'll tell you another really quick crazy story.

  'cause I know your listeners you know, want experience, strength, and hope. I had a client. Who was, and, and my friend Tam had never been told by all her doctors, oh, this is why she had never even tried to have a baby. 'cause she was told by all her doctors, you can't have, you won't be able to conceive, you won't

  Michelle: Mm.

  Rita: children.

  And so she was like, okay. And then she, so she lived her life and like that. And then, but she got pregnant. And this other woman who was a client of mine, [00:31:00] same thing. Doctors are like, yeah, ain't gonna happen for you. So she just lived her life. She got pregnant at 53.

  Michelle: Oh yeah, I've heard, I've heard stories like that.

  Rita: Yeah,

  Michelle: amazing. Amazing.

  Rita: yeah.

  Michelle: And it was a full term.

  Rita: Oh yeah. And healthy. Healthy girl little girl. Yeah,

  Michelle: Wow.

  Amazing. I love, see, I love those stories. And then I always a lot of times I will start the conversation, especially if I have a new client or a patient that says you know, my, my time is up, or, you know, anything about their age, you know, well, I'm not getting any younger.

  And then I tell them the, do you know how old? woman in the Guinness Book of World Records was to get pregnant, and they were like, no, 58.

  Rita: Oh

  Michelle: a woman in England of all places, because England doesn't have a lot of sunlight, so you're thinking like vitamin D deficiency. And she did. She got pregnant and had a baby, and it was, it was very random,

  Rita: That is [00:32:00] crazy. I love that. Wow.

  Michelle: Yeah. And it happened in China too. And you know they don't have IVF 'cause they only can have I think one child or there's like a

  rule

  Rita: correct. right, right.

  Michelle: so it was an older couple. It was much older like, and it was just

  Rita: Interesting.

  Michelle: were not expecting That Yeah,

  Rita: is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So I do think the collective unconscious is very powerful. Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think that that's probably one of the reasons why, you know, it takes a lot for us to do something different. And then even if we do, you know, there's innovation, the, you know, sometimes we wanna like stay in the what's comfortable and what's known. So you almost go against that innovative thought.

  It's kind of like the world is round, you know, what do you mean the world is wrong? You know?

  and and so, but we do that to ourselves in our own life, our own limiting beliefs.

  Rita: percent.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Rita: hundred percent. I love that. World is round. The world is flat. [00:33:00] Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, so yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I, I think people can do. And what are some of the things that you offer.

  Rita: I offer if people are interested in trying hypnosis, I do and, you know, are looking to get healthier. Weight management wise, I was struggling with weight. I have a free masterclass called How to Stop the Start Over Weight Struggle Cycle because we do get in a pattern of going on a diet, then going off and going on and going off and.

  Becomes a habit. So we talk about breaking through the subconscious roadblocks that are keeping you in that pattern. And we do weight loss hypnosis, so that's a great one to try out hypnosis if you're interested in that kind of thing. I will give you the link and then I also, for those of you who are.

  Have a loved one or somebody who is trying to quit smoking. I have how to quit smoking masterclass without cravings, withdrawal or weight gain. So it, it just, again, getting into how to use the mind effectively [00:34:00] to quit smoking because there's a lot of mythology around quitting smoking that just makes it seem so hard and it doesn't have to be.

  Michelle: Oh, I love that because I do have a lot of clients that do do smoke and that their husbands smoke or, you know, so and it, it really, it throws a wrench in the whole fertility journey trying to conceive, 'cause it impacts men and women.

  Rita: Right. I, I don't know that people realize a lot of time, and maybe you've educated your clients on this, but nicotine elevates your insulin, which then impacts your hormones. And so

  Michelle: weight gain too.

  Rita: it can like, and it, but the, the, the, a lot of people don't realize vaping does that too. So it's, I I think people think vaping is healthier because it doesn't smell and, you know, you aren't using something combustible, which is true.

  But it

  Michelle: But isn't it worse? Some people, I, I remember

  Rita: oh.

  Michelle: was [00:35:00] even worse 'cause of the chemicals.

  Rita: The chemicals, but also most people who vape the, the, the dis distinction between the habit of vaping and the habit of smoking. And it's, it, you know, I remember, 'cause again, I was in a prac practice way before e-cigarettes and vaping came onto the market and when they did, I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be so horrible.

  Because when somebody smokes, like, let's say half a pack a day, a pack a day. There's many, many times because you can't smoke indoors for the most part. There's many times to the brain, smoking's not an option because most of what drives smoking is dopamine, not nicotine. You know, people sleep through the night, they're fine without.

  They're doses of nicotine, but the brain is dopamine driven through habit, and it will agitate the person for whatever. You know, you mentioned the ringing phone. It's like having a ringing phone. You wake up and you have the cigarette phone is ringing, and so with [00:36:00] smoking, you know, I finish a cigarette after breakfast and maybe it's not an option for a couple of hours while I'm at work, until I get to lunch or until a break or whatever.

  Vaping because you can do it from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to bed, the brain is always

  Michelle: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what happens is 99.9% of the people that I work with vape from, like they literally, it's by their bed. They vape from the moment they wake up until the moment they go to bed.

  Rita: You know, with very little breaks in between. And so that amount of nicotine. And the amount of, and they think they're super addicted to nicotine. No, they're not. It's the dopamine that's driving the habit. But, but the nicotine is elevating their insulin so much that that is impacting their, the balance of their hormones.

  So it does it that, and the chemicals, I don't know what the chemicals do, I'll be honest with you, but I know the elevated insulin levels, you know, are shown [00:37:00] to impact hormones, pre-diabetes, Alzheimer's, dementia. I mean, like, it's just. It's not any, in my mind, it's not any better than smoking. I mean healthier for sure.

  Michelle: Yeah. for sure. So, yeah, I think this is gonna be actually a couple people that I'm thinking about to send them to you.

  Rita: Oh, okay. Well, I, yeah, I have a program online. I have programs that are online and. They're, you know, very affordable and easy to access. So, but just, you know, if, if you are listening, if you're a male or a female and your spouse is the smoker, the one thing I would say is they, you know, the masterclass might be helpful for them because you, you can't, I get calls all the time, make my husband quit smoking.

  I'm like, sorry. He needs to actually want to stop

  Michelle: That's so true. Yes. That I, I kinda had a feeling you were gonna say that

  Rita: Yeah.

  Michelle: to come, needs to want

  Rita: Yeah. But you know, once, once men especially understand, [00:38:00] I I, you know, dunno what kind of terminology I can use on this, but you know, I've had some very famous men who come in who are real tough guys. Like, 'cause I work in LA so I work with celebrities, I work with, you know, ALIST Superstars.

  You know, some of them are like really tough guys. You are like, and they'll come in, they'll be like all macho and everything. And I'll be like, well, but you're the bitch of your cigarettes or you're the, you know, they're like, look at me, like, what? And I was like, yeah, they kind of control you and you, you just hop to it whenever they call.

  And they're like, oh yeah, you're right. And it kind of uses that. And I'm sorry if I, if you have to blurb out

  Michelle: Oh, No. It's Okay. Yeah.

  Rita: But it's the perfect terminology for what it is because we become the slave of that thing. And when, you know, when you're saying, well, it's not healthy for you, the brain doesn't care.

  But when you are like, that thing owns you and, and you don't have any say in the matter. [00:39:00] That starts to get under people's skin, that starts to bug them and, and their sense of themselves. So that's, that's a better tactic

  Michelle: Hmm. Yeah, that's true. That's actually really true.

  Rita: Than the health piece, which nobody cares about. So.

  Michelle: That's true. When it comes down to it. I mean that dopamine and that,

  Rita: Yeah. Dopamine doesn't care about your health, but it is your sense of yourself. Like going back to identity is very important. So if something is getting interfering with a positive sense of you, you're gonna wor you're gonna wanna work to, to move that thing outta the way. And it's so, it's a gr it's a great mind shifter.

  Really

  Michelle: Ooh, I like that. That's great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation. Anytime I get to talk about the mind and.

  Ask questions, Of experts like you. I love it because it's just so much fun. It's empowering. That's the cool thing

  about it. I really find that it's empowering 'cause I think that we could [00:40:00] very easily believe that we are being controlled and we have no choice in the matter.

  And to know that you do on things that I guess we considered very hard. But what I found also interesting you were saying about quitting smoking is that we. Almost buy into the belief that it's impossible

  to do.

  Rita: I, I have this saying, I say that the nicotine and tobacco industry are bankrolled by two words, addiction and withdrawal. This idea, I'm an addict and I'm helpless, and you know, it's hard. And then, and then withdraw is a very powerful word. And when we think of withdrawal, we think of heroin, withdraw, like we think of like sweating and convulsing and pain.

  But everybody, you know, I point out to people. You go to bed and you go through the night and you aren't in pain and you are withdrawing from nicotine. You know, the moment you put out a cigarette or put your vape down, you're withdrawing from nicotine. I have [00:41:00] clients who only smoke during the weekend, not on the weekends, because they go home to their wives and you know, their wives say you can't smoke around the kids, so they'll just leave their cigarettes at the office for the weekend and they're fine for the whole weekend because in their mind.

  It's not an option and it's not an option. So when it's not an option, the brain doesn't bug you for it. You're okay. You can nicotine, withdraw. Is actually really not a big deal. But what people do experience in the first couple days is blood sugar insulin reregulation, which does create brain fog, can create those feelings of hangriness.

  But if you see it as a healing process rather than a withdraw process, then it's a lot easier to really put it in a powerful place in your brain rather than a deprivational place in your brain.

  Michelle: Right. Yeah. That's such a great reframe.

  Rita: Yeah,

  Michelle: Um, and it shifts, it shifts everything.

  So, Yeah, that's it's amazing and it's empowering and I know that there's gotta be somebody listening to [00:42:00] this right now that either is struggling with it or their partners are. So I think that this, this is a great thing to know that there is a solution

  that may not be as painful as you think.

  So,

  Rita: yeah. It can be incredibly empowering. So if you're listening, I hope this gives you hope and you're way more powerful than you think you are.

  Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent. Well, thank you so much.

  Rita: Well, it was lovely. Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed our conversation.

  Michelle: Thank you so much. R. Awesome. So let me stop recording.

Ep 364 Misconceptions I See Daily as a Fertility Acupuncturist

In this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle Oravitz, fertility acupuncturist and holistic fertility coach, breaks down the most common misconceptions she encounters in her clinic. Drawing on nearly a decade of experience supporting couples on their fertility journey, Michelle sheds light on the myths that can hold people back from conceiving, from misunderstanding the fertile window and fearing healthy fats, to overdoing green juices and neglecting stress management.

You’ll learn why fertility is about more than just timing or diet, how mindset and nervous system health play a pivotal role, and why it’s essential to approach conception as a shared journey between partners. Whether you’re just beginning your fertility path or seeking to fine-tune your approach, this episode will empower you with knowledge and clarity to support your reproductive health naturally.

Key Takeaways: 

• Many women miscalculate ovulation and the fertile window, it’s not always mid-cycle.

• Healthy fats like avocado, ghee, and full-fat dairy support hormone production.

• Too much raw food and cold drinks can create a “cold womb,” affecting fertility.

• Over-focusing on “doing all the right things” can increase stress and hinder conception.

• Fertility is a shared responsibility, sperm health is just as crucial as egg health.

• Seeking professional and emotional support can make the journey smoother and less isolating.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
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Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00]

  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Channel. I'm Michelle Orbit, a fertility acupuncturist and host of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast, and today I'm going to cover five of the most common misconceptions I see when it comes to fertility health. In my close to 10 years of practicing acupuncture and specializing in fertility, I often see many people come in.

  Speaker 2: And upon our first call we always discuss what my patients have done thus far. And here are many common misconceptions I see. And I thought about making a video because I'm sure if I see that in my practice that there's a lot of people out there that are also feeling the same way. But before we get started, make sure that you hit like and subscribe so that you don't miss any other episodes in the future when it comes to boosting your fertility health.

  Speaker 2: So stay tuned.

  Speaker 2: So one of the most [00:01:00] common misconceptions I get surround the time of ovulation and the fertile window. Many women believe that because they have a 28 day or even a 30 32 day cycle that they ovulate right in the middle. Many people also come to really trust their apps. So that is one of the most common misconceptions that I see is that just because your period is regular, that ovulation or your fertile window should be right in the middle.

  Speaker 2: And also a lot of people don't realize that they have a fertile window that happens five days before ovulation. And this is because it's not something that we're really taught in school. And a lot of people don't really know this. So this is one of the common things that I see. A lot of people do know this, but some people are just starting their fertility journey and don't really realize that not only do we not know exactly when ovulation occurs, but the fertile window happens five days before.

  Speaker 2: And that also, there are many tracking systems that they would need in order to really understand month to month [00:02:00] what their fertile window would be. And I've talked about this in many other podcasts. But this is just one aspect of what I see often. So I thought it would be important to cover this because it's just not taught enough.

  Speaker 2: Another thing is that something that is considered healthy or thought to be healthy, which is low fat diets. So this is something that has been taught a long time ago, and right now it is actually being challenged. Because having high fats of healthy fats can really support hormone production. So people have been taught for so many years to be afraid of fats, but fats are actually really supportive to your fertility.

  Speaker 2: In fact, there's studies that show that having dairy products that are whole based and not fat free or even skim tend to support fertility health. Versus skim milk or skim dairy products have been shown to have an adverse effect in supporting fertility health. So when it comes to healthy [00:03:00] fats, it's important to really find ones that are not things like trans fats or unhealthy fats that cause more inflammation.

  Speaker 2: So you wanna think about things like nuts, seeds, as long as you're not allergic to 'em. And then also full fat dairy and things like yogurt are really supportive. As long again as you're not allergic to them. And avocados are amazing and even salmon is really healthy and it's optimal to avoid farmed salmon and go for wild caught salmon.

  Speaker 2: And also cooking with coconut oil or even ghee, which is clarified butter, is really supportive. And making sure to couple that with proteins and healthy greens that are cooked and supportive starches like. Sweet potato or plantains. But most importantly, do not be afraid of fats because fats are the backbones of hormone production and they're very necessary in order to support our reproductive health.

  Speaker 2: So number three, this is another [00:04:00] misconception. That I often hear is juicing all the time. Lots of green juices, lots of smoothies, really, really eating all raw vegetables, not so great. Not that it's bad to completely have any raw vegetables at all. It's just that you might wanna consider a 2080 rule. So 20% could be raw, but 80% of your vegetable intake should be cooked.

  Speaker 2: And the reason for this is that. Too much raw, according to Chinese medicine, contributes to cold in your system. And when you have a cold womb, it is not really compatible or supportive for conception. So Chinese medicine, we often do a lot of things to warm the wound. We even have something called ion, which we do in office and.

  Speaker 2: This is safely burning a certain type of herb, and this herb creates more warmth in your womb. And the reason for this is because when you think about anything that is warm, it helps things to flow. So if [00:05:00] something's too cold, it becomes stuck, stagnant, and slower to move. And we want a lot of movement in the womb and think about blood flow, blood movement, qi movement.

  Speaker 2: We really wanna support that healthy vitality in the womb area. And so it's really important not to have too much cold. And this is also to avoid anything that is like cold drinks, ice cream or ice cold smoothies. So you might be eating like really, really healthy vegetables and fruits, but having it ice cold that.

  Speaker 2: Really impacts your digestive system and the stagnation in your stomach as well. And think about your stomach very similar to that of an oven or a stove top. It needs to be warm in order to cook the food. And this is why we have acid. So Chinese medicine, we see that. And also Ayurvedic medicine where they talk about Agni is that it's important that it has a warm environment in order to digest the food.

  Speaker 2: And so we have something called. [00:06:00] Triple burners. And so we have three different burners and one of them is our stomach, and this is one of the areas that we're cooking our food basically, so that we're supporting the whole digestive process. And I've talked a lot about this on the show, is that the digestive process is incredibly supportive and necessary in order to have a good, healthy reproductive system.

  Speaker 2: So consider a cold womb like freezing soil, and you don't wanna plant a seed in cold soil. You want something that is warm. Nourishing and supportive. So another misconception that I often find is people feel that they have to address every single thing possible. And this could be really doing all the right things.

  Speaker 2: And sometimes when you're doing all the right things and you're completely ignoring. The stress that that can cause. Then it almost erases everything that you're doing because if you're increasing the stress and not realizing that the cortisol is rising, or your nervous system is misregulated, or it's impacting your sleep [00:07:00] and causing so much stress, that stress can weigh so heavy on your reproductive health.

  Speaker 2: And this is something that I often see is ignored because many times we don't really pay attention to what are we're thinking about because that feels like something we can't really control. We feel like we can only control something that's in front of us or things that we see in our material world.

  Speaker 2: However, our state of minds are really, really important, and really, really impactful when it comes to reproductive health. Our nervous system being in fight or flight can cause a host of problems. It can impact your digestive system. Which can increase inflammation, it can impact your sleep and ability for your body to restore itself.

  Speaker 2: And it also takes you into survival and outside of a creative state of your body, which is reproduction. So it's really important to pay attention to that. And there's been studies that have shown that IVF has been more successful when women are reducing their stress loads. [00:08:00] And not only that, when you are able to do that and get into a mindfulness practice, you're going to improve your quality of life and you're gonna feel better when you need it most.

  Speaker 2: So you're gonna be able to fill your cup when you need it at a very stressful time, like the fertility journey. So one of the things that I often suggest is try to remember things that made you happy before you started your fertility journey. Some of the things that you used to do with your partner, which really brought you joy, and also things that tend to bring you into the present moment.

  Speaker 2: What are those? Maybe sit down and write a list. All the things that you used to do that you kind of felt, and this is kind of like another micro misconception that we have to put those things on hold. Think about those things and maybe bring them back to your life. So even once a day, doing something, like listening to a song that just made you happy when you were in your teenage years.

  Speaker 2: Something that really brings you back to a happy place. If you could do that at least once a day, and it could be [00:09:00] even walking, taking a walk outside or singing around the house, anything, anything that really brings you some joy. And if you start to do that little by little, you can add little breaks in your consciousness so that you're bringing yourself to a.

  Speaker 2: Of joy and who doesn't want joy. Another common misconception that I see is that it's all on the woman, and that's completely not the case. And many miscarriages happen because of the sperm quality and not just the egg quality. So it's really important to address both partner's health and make sure to go to a physician that is going to be considering the sperm health just as much as they consider the egg health.

  Speaker 2: And also know that everything that you're doing for egg quality. Your partner should be doing as well for sperm quality so that this is a partnership and this is not just one piece of the puzzle. And some of the things that you can do in order to increase both sperm and egg quality are eating healthy fats like mentioned before, [00:10:00] omega threes, lowering inflammation, nervous system reset.

  Speaker 2: Is great for both partners and also increasing antioxidants in foods. And the part about the joy could be applied to both partners as well. And lastly, the last thing that I often see is that many couples try to go through this alone and they don't really seek the proper help. And this could be even after losses where they need more emotional support.

  Speaker 2: And this can make it really difficult, and sometimes in many cases, not getting the proper support. Can make the journey longer than it needs to be. Whereas if they do get the support and not just the support, the proper support, maybe getting multiple consultations and opinions so that they know that they're working with the right person so that they're not feeling like they have to figure it out alone.

  Speaker 2: And luckily, there are a lot of great resources. Resolve is a great organization that you can take a look at. And even having a fertility coach who can guide you and your partner through the journey, because fertility coaches really understand the whole [00:11:00] process and they can shed some light on things that you might not realize.

  Speaker 2: But most importantly, really finding whoever you feel aligned with and really knowing that there is support out there and that a lot of people are going through this. There's a lot more support than people realize. So if you heard me talking about nervous system reset and you're like, what even is that?

  Speaker 2: I have a great ebook that you can find in the description called Be Calm, and I talk about how to stimulate the vagus nerve in order to regulate your nervous system and it's completely free. So definitely check it out. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you got some good information from this.

  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I'll see you next time.